I introduced a group to BX using Old School Essentials, they were all former 5E players. I was running Keep on the Borderlands because you know gotta do the classic for the new players. They went to the Kobold cave entrance and some of the Kobolds were outside in the tree, I rolled the monster reaction roll max (two 6s) so the Kobolds were friendly and helpful. One of the players was able to talk to them and they warned them about the Ogre in one of the other caves. Naturally being 5E players they all decide "well lets go kill the Ogre" and I said "guys are you sure? You just got warned about it and because thisnis your first session I'm letting you know this is not like 5E as I've said, this is a different game" to which one of them responded "This is a low level adventure we will be fine". Well the party started with 5 characters and one henchman, two of them stayed back because they had low hp and they walked straight into the Ogre cave. One of the players was a Dwarf wearing platemail with 7ph, on the second round of combat he got hit for 7 damage and died, you should have seen the look on his face as he said "... I'm dead?" After seeing that the two in the back just ran away and the remaining ones in melee thought they couldn't outrun the Ogre (they could've) and they all proceeded to die with me giving detailed descriptions of their demise. That is when it finally sunk in, they weren't taking my warnings seriously and I repeated "This is not 5E" however were determined to get revenge but now they were more engaged and started planning. They bought ranged weapons and went straight back and messed up that Ogre, ot really opened their eyes and really made them realize overcoming this Ogre actually meant something as opposed to a 5E Ogre where you just surround it and beat it to death. This is why I will not go back to running 5E you just can't get these moments when there is nothing to risk. (Edit: I realize this story is long if you made it to the end I hope you enjoyed it)
@@elliotvernon7971 That would be a good strategy. As I said the Kobolds were friendly in this case but I could see if they were not friendly then doing this on purpose.
@@elliotvernon7971 If they got lucky with a 12 reaction I'm not going to screw them over and alter that. For some reason these kobolds think you are real up standing guys. If you have a good offer you can probs recruit them. They will eat your cadavers but that's what friends do.
@@BX-advocate Players sometimes use that opportunity to recruit. The kobolds know how dangerous the ogre is but might join in a larger crew with a plan.
Great video! I have a story: first time playing Wight Box, we run into a (randomly rolled) 4hd evil knight in all black-armor as our very first dungeon encounter. Our wizard fails to charm him so we run away. The next day, we return and he's still there, but this time the charm succeeds and we gain total control over him. We use him as our sword to brute force our way through that part of the dungeon, even sending him in first to tank trap damage. But once we're nearing the end of the day, we have to put him out of his misery because the spell will end if the wizard goes to sleep and then he would kill us all. My character, being chaotic good, decides to give him a warrior's death-instead of just executing him-by having a duel. We make the knight fully undress and lay down his weapons, so he will be first fighting a plate-armored fighter that is now wielding his +1 sword. The outcome? He hits three nat 20s in four rolls and sends my character to 0hp. The only reason I didn't die there and then was because the DM decided that since he was unarmed, his attacks were non-lethal (which is something he probably just did out of mercy for us since it was the first session). We decided that the knight had punched my character so hard that it'd caved his helmet in, cutting his face and leaving a nasty scar. We killed the evil knight less honorably afterwards, and my character became a lot less merciful.
Late to the party (in terms of comments) but when we played, we referred it to combat (and old school in general) as Fantasy Vietnam. We started in the early 80's so the Vietnam War was still pretty fresh in out minds.
I've been running a party through a Pathfinder 1e adventure path, Rise of the Runelords, and they're playing just like this and I'm having a heck of a time keeping up with them in combat. They have a mixture of brilliant strategy and blind stupid luck that makes them unpredictable and chaotic and so much fun to run a campaign for. They have breached a barn where captives where being kept through the back wall (after scouting the building) using a floating disc and a silence spell to do so stealthily. The very next session, they cleared a floor then slowly and quietly cut their way through the ceiling of a farmhouse and climbed up a hole to make a surprise, stealth entrance. It's like trying to account for Seal Team Six and it's so much fun.
Great video. I grew up playing AD&D. Players in more modern games don't understand what gave rise to power gamers and min maxers. These are pejorative terms now but they came from an honest desire of an 11-year old wanting his character to live past 1st level. In order to enjoy these returns to OSE / OSR play i've had to embrace what I enjoyed about that playing style (the paranoia, planning, resource mgmt) and learn to be okay letting my characters die. this is much easier now in my *cough* late 40's then it was in my pre-teen years.
BRP and Call of Cthulhu are driven more by investigation and story and roleplaying but there's an understanding that people are squishy and do not level up a fatty hp layer. Same in WFRP, you do not gain a lot more Wounds.
I don't think I ever stopped being old school about combat. Even though I am not a killer type dm, combat gets intense in campaigns I run. Which I suppose is why after 3e I mostly switched to other systems. I dislike intensely 5e ad&d.
The big secret to your success, is something you didn't point out. You let the game flow, you let their characters die without holding back. After that they took your game more serious, hence they changed their approach. Imagine if 5e DMs on mass found out about this secret, they would look at 5e with new eyes, it wouldn't be good for 5e.
They got wrecked because they thought they were superheroes when in fact they were far from it. 5E players don't seem to realize actual Dungeons and Dragons is not wotc versions of dungeons and superheroes. I've seen it a number of times in my own games. I stopped inviting the 5E players because they just refused to actually adapt and learn.
I like the saying, it is not the GM's job to make the encounter fair. It is the players' job to make it unfair.
Very true
I introduced a group to BX using Old School Essentials, they were all former 5E players. I was running Keep on the Borderlands because you know gotta do the classic for the new players. They went to the Kobold cave entrance and some of the Kobolds were outside in the tree, I rolled the monster reaction roll max (two 6s) so the Kobolds were friendly and helpful. One of the players was able to talk to them and they warned them about the Ogre in one of the other caves. Naturally being 5E players they all decide "well lets go kill the Ogre" and I said "guys are you sure? You just got warned about it and because thisnis your first session I'm letting you know this is not like 5E as I've said, this is a different game" to which one of them responded "This is a low level adventure we will be fine". Well the party started with 5 characters and one henchman, two of them stayed back because they had low hp and they walked straight into the Ogre cave. One of the players was a Dwarf wearing platemail with 7ph, on the second round of combat he got hit for 7 damage and died, you should have seen the look on his face as he said "... I'm dead?" After seeing that the two in the back just ran away and the remaining ones in melee thought they couldn't outrun the Ogre (they could've) and they all proceeded to die with me giving detailed descriptions of their demise.
That is when it finally sunk in, they weren't taking my warnings seriously and I repeated "This is not 5E" however were determined to get revenge but now they were more engaged and started planning. They bought ranged weapons and went straight back and messed up that Ogre, ot really opened their eyes and really made them realize overcoming this Ogre actually meant something as opposed to a 5E Ogre where you just surround it and beat it to death.
This is why I will not go back to running 5E you just can't get these moments when there is nothing to risk.
(Edit: I realize this story is long if you made it to the end I hope you enjoyed it)
Great story and great points!
Kobold tribes eat well by misdirecting 5e chumps to the ogre’s cave and then picking off the fleeing survivors.
@@elliotvernon7971 That would be a good strategy. As I said the Kobolds were friendly in this case but I could see if they were not friendly then doing this on purpose.
@@elliotvernon7971 If they got lucky with a 12 reaction I'm not going to screw them over and alter that. For some reason these kobolds think you are real up standing guys. If you have a good offer you can probs recruit them. They will eat your cadavers but that's what friends do.
@@BX-advocate Players sometimes use that opportunity to recruit. The kobolds know how dangerous the ogre is but might join in a larger crew with a plan.
Great video!
I have a story: first time playing Wight Box, we run into a (randomly rolled) 4hd evil knight in all black-armor as our very first dungeon encounter. Our wizard fails to charm him so we run away. The next day, we return and he's still there, but this time the charm succeeds and we gain total control over him. We use him as our sword to brute force our way through that part of the dungeon, even sending him in first to tank trap damage. But once we're nearing the end of the day, we have to put him out of his misery because the spell will end if the wizard goes to sleep and then he would kill us all. My character, being chaotic good, decides to give him a warrior's death-instead of just executing him-by having a duel. We make the knight fully undress and lay down his weapons, so he will be first fighting a plate-armored fighter that is now wielding his +1 sword. The outcome? He hits three nat 20s in four rolls and sends my character to 0hp. The only reason I didn't die there and then was because the DM decided that since he was unarmed, his attacks were non-lethal (which is something he probably just did out of mercy for us since it was the first session). We decided that the knight had punched my character so hard that it'd caved his helmet in, cutting his face and leaving a nasty scar. We killed the evil knight less honorably afterwards, and my character became a lot less merciful.
I dont balance encounters. Theyre all easy until theyre not. Ill foretell serious stuff though. Theyve learned to listen...usually.
Late to the party (in terms of comments) but when we played, we referred it to combat (and old school in general) as Fantasy Vietnam. We started in the early 80's so the Vietnam War was still pretty fresh in out minds.
I've been running a party through a Pathfinder 1e adventure path, Rise of the Runelords, and they're playing just like this and I'm having a heck of a time keeping up with them in combat. They have a mixture of brilliant strategy and blind stupid luck that makes them unpredictable and chaotic and so much fun to run a campaign for. They have breached a barn where captives where being kept through the back wall (after scouting the building) using a floating disc and a silence spell to do so stealthily. The very next session, they cleared a floor then slowly and quietly cut their way through the ceiling of a farmhouse and climbed up a hole to make a surprise, stealth entrance. It's like trying to account for Seal Team Six and it's so much fun.
Great video. I grew up playing AD&D. Players in more modern games don't understand what gave rise to power gamers and min maxers. These are pejorative terms now but they came from an honest desire of an 11-year old wanting his character to live past 1st level. In order to enjoy these returns to OSE / OSR play i've had to embrace what I enjoyed about that playing style (the paranoia, planning, resource mgmt) and learn to be okay letting my characters die. this is much easier now in my *cough* late 40's then it was in my pre-teen years.
BRP and Call of Cthulhu are driven more by investigation and story and roleplaying but there's an understanding that people are squishy and do not level up a fatty hp layer. Same in WFRP, you do not gain a lot more Wounds.
I don't think I ever stopped being old school about combat. Even though I am not a killer type dm, combat gets intense in campaigns I run. Which I suppose is why after 3e I mostly switched to other systems. I dislike intensely 5e ad&d.
Just came upon your channel today. Excellent, thought provoking video!
Thanks! I appreciate that.
The big secret to your success, is something you didn't point out. You let the game flow, you let their characters die without holding back. After that they took your game more serious, hence they changed their approach.
Imagine if 5e DMs on mass found out about this secret, they would look at 5e with new eyes, it wouldn't be good for 5e.
That’s an excellent point
They got wrecked because they thought they were superheroes when in fact they were far from it. 5E players don't seem to realize actual Dungeons and Dragons is not wotc versions of dungeons and superheroes. I've seen it a number of times in my own games. I stopped inviting the 5E players because they just refused to actually adapt and learn.
Will u be doing any ck3 playthrough’s in the near future, ik u said the burgundy one was called off
I will not
Which branch were you?