Calvinism Debate: Steve Gregg vs James White, Part 5
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 15 дек 2023
- Day 5 of a radio debate between James White, the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries (www.aomin.org) and Steve Gregg, bible teacher and radio host at The Narrow Path (thenarrowpath.com).
#calvinism #sovereignty #god #salvation #arminianism #stevegregg #jameswhite #debate #debates #theology #christianity #christian #church #biblestudy #bible #discussion #reformed #calvinist #johncalvin #saintaugustine #choice #freewill #fatalist #determinism
The reason why James White may seem like he won the debate is because he gaslights every statement and question he makes.
I had the opposite reaction - I thought James dealt with the text of Scripture faithfully over and over and Steve mostly appealed to human wisdom, reasoning and arguments.
@@beaZ136 Same with Leighton Flowers, really any anti-Calvinist: they clearly want to follow a faith that #1 doesn't require faith and #2 doesn't offend anyone.
Arbitrary ignorant statement if there ever was one.
I’m still a Calvinist, but Steve Gregg did an excellent job. It was a very good debate. Anyone who says one debater destroyed or annihilated the other debater, clearly had no intention on listening honestly.
These are good words, and I appreciate the humility, love, and maturity in them. But I must disagree, I watched this a few years ago and had every intention of listening honestly, I was very much hoping to hear a good debate from both sides. Out of respect for your good words and attitude in your comment, I wont even say here who it is that did not perform well, but I was very disappointed to hear one side properly debate while the other side .. well, lets just say they didn't :-)
Ummm. Lop sided and I listened carefully to all 5 vids. I do believe White deconstructed all of Steve's issues and IF he was honest perhaps he could've come to acknowledge that the Calvinist theological worldview is superior. But doing so would only be because God does a specific work in bringing someone to that point. Logic and argumentation by itself, will not necessarily make it stick. Though it didn't take me long, once I could hear the flow of the Calvinist response to J.Arminius that I was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt, that I was finally free. The Scriptures were, at that point, viewed from an entirely different view and understanding that had completely freed me.
@@tedbastwock3810Gregg butchers Romans 9 and if he is incorrect there he is certainly incorrect every where else he gives his interpretation
To totally agree. Steve did a great job! He seems intelligent and sincere, which is awesome
I agree. This was James White at his best. I'm new to Steve Gregg's work, but he went toe to toe in this debate, and I'm on his side of the divide. Listening to White in this debate, I'm astounded how bad he was just recently vs Leighton Flowers. This James White and that James White are almost two different people.
As much as I enjoy theology and armchair philosophizing like every other shmuck in the comments,
There comes a point where you just gotta say "this is a bunch of silly gobbledygook."
The blind man didn't know or care about soteriology, the lepers didn't concern themselves with Theistic determinism, the woman at the well didn't feel the need to ask about infralapsarianism vs prelapsarianism,
The guy on the cross next to Jesus wasn't worried about limited atonement.
I'm a simple guy, I'm glad the Gospel is simple.
I don't need the Gospel Expansion Pack; Lucky Elect Lottery Winner Edition.
Calvinism is silly.
Good discussion though! Thanks for sharing this 5 day debate!😊
@AlexanderDun, Both Gregg and White are wrong because they lack the knowledge of what Jesus revealed in the parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13:24-43.. Jesus revealed in this parable that there are only two kinds of people in the world, the children of God and the children of the devil.. All the children of God are predestined to be saved and all the children of the devil are predestined to be damned..
Example of the children of the devil can be found in John 8:44.. Exanple of the children of God can be found in Psalm 82:6 and Romans 8:14..
You hit it right on the nose!
So wanting to understand God is gobbeldygook? This is for people who seek Truth and knowledge, understanding and wisdom. Even Paul says we should keep our foundation but go on to greater understanding. He even talks to the Corinthians and says he would desire to feed them meat but they are still acting like babies, who can only take milk. But, you do you.
What exactly is "armchair philosophizing" ??
Calvinism simply allows ALL of scripture to speak and be believed.
The fact that God hardens the hearts of some and not others proves he is sovereign in salvation does it not?
Read Romans 11 as to why God hardened the Jews hearts, friend
Hello dear friend,
May God bless you and your loved ones abundantly.
I hope you don’t mind if I share something with you.
I wonder if you would please consider this and let me know what you think.
James White was asked where in the Scriptures he got the doctrine that people dead in their sins can’t repent and believe the Gospel - he replied with Romans 8:5-9.
I believe Calvinists doubly misunderstand that passage.
Let me explain the first misunderstanding : which is if it did mean what Calvinists say it means then Calvinism has a huge self-defeating problem.
Because:
according to Calvinism verse 9 means it’s impossible to have faith/please God without first having the Spirit of God dwell in us.
**BUT** according to multiple verses in the Bible we are only given/receive the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith:
The following verses (I’ll only quote 3 for brevity) are all explicitly clear that we only receive the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith (please God):
“This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
…
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?”
Galatians 3:2, 5
-
“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
Galatians 3:13-14
-
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom (IN HIM) also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Ephesians 1:13
That’s a huge self-defeating problem for Calvinism - because it says you can’t please God (have faith) before the Spirit dwells in you, but scripture is crystal clear we only get the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith/believe.
Who’s wrong: Calvinism or Scripture?
Would you be able to explain how any Calvinist person ever managed to please God/have faith BEFORE the Spirit dwelled inside them???
Because if they hadn’t been given the Spirit, according to Calvinism, that means they were still in the flesh and incapable of pleasing God/having faith.
???????????????????
According to Calvinism, how does anyone ever please God/have faith??? Because you Calvinists say Romans 8 says it’s impossible to do that unless the Spirit dwells inside you - but Scripture is crystal clear we only receive the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith.
Calvinism’s mistaken interpretation of Romans 8 is self-defeating.
-------
-------
Calvinism has another problem because the following verse clearly states that before Pentecost the Holy Spirit hadn’t been given:
“The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
John 7:38-39
So therefore, according to Calvinism’s interpretation of Romans 8, no one before Pentecost could ever please God (have faith).
So how did anyone in the Old Testament, like Abraham, have faith and please God BEFORE the Spirit was given???
Also, the following verses show people having faith and believing in the Gospels BEFORE Pentecost and before the Spirit was given:
“But many of the crowd believed in Him; and they were saying, “When the Christ comes, He will not perform more signs than those which this man has done, will He?””
John 7:31
Q for Calvinist: how did they believe without the Holy Spirit dwelling in them?
"Daughter, YOUR FAITH has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering." - Mark 5:34
And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; YOUR FAITH has made you well." - Mark 10:52
"Take courage, daughter," He said, "YOUR FAITH has healed you." - Matthew 9:22
''Daughter, YOUR FAITH has made you well; go in peace." - Luke 8:48
According to Calvinism’s interpretation of Romans 8, it’s impossible for them to please God (have faith) because the Spirit didn’t dwell in them.
----
----
I hope all of that makes you begin to wonder if you have the correct understanding of Romans 8:5-9 - because, I believe scripture indicates you haven’t.
So, as for Calvinism’s second misunderstanding about that passage in Romans 8 - please consider the passage again but in the CEV translation:
“People who are ruled by their desires think only of themselves. Everyone who is ruled by the Holy Spirit thinks about spiritual things. If our minds are ruled by our desires, we will die. But if our minds are ruled by the Spirit, we will have life and peace. Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws. ***If we follow our desires, we cannot please God. *** You are no longer ruled by your desires, but by God's Spirit, who lives in you. People who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them don't belong to him. But Christ lives in you. So you are alive because God has accepted you, even though your bodies must die because of your sins.”
Romans 8:5-10 CEV
What it means is: while you are following the desires of the flesh, you can’t please God.
That’s all it means.
I can point you to a video explaining the Greek if you are interested.
Also: please think - if that passage meant what Calvinism says it means, because it’s often badly translated - it contradicts most of Romans - because Paul spends most his time stressing that salvation is through faith alone.
If Paul believed in Calvinistic regeneration, surely he should have stressed it’s got nothing to do with faith and entirely depends on whether you’re elect or not.
Why did Paul waste so much time saying every man is responsible to respond to God and have faith???
Maybe because that’s exactly what he meant.
@@SpielbergMichaelfaith is given so a person can believe. A person believes because God gives him faith.
You were given faith therfore you believed and not you believed therefore you have faith.
@@abuelbHello friend,
May God bless you and your loved ones abundantly.
What you wrote doesn’t match Calvinism. You directly contradict Calvinism.
Because Calvinists (wrongly) interpret Romans 8:5-9 to say humans can NOT do anything to please God (like having faith) before they have the Holy Spirit in them.
But these 3 passages are categorically clear that we are only given the Holy Spirit **AFTER** we believe/have faith:
Galatians 3:2,5
Galatians 3:13-14
Ephesians 1:13
But you wrote we can plesse God before we are given the Holy Spirit. That contradicts Calvinism’s interpretation of Romans 8:5-9.
It’s Calvinism’s self-defeating Catch-22.
Calvinism doesn’t make sense. Calvinists say we have to be regenerated (made alive) so that we can have faith so that we can believe in Jesus so that He will make us alive (again!).
Also, you need to cite Bible verses to support your statements, otherwise I can’t take them seriously.
Augustine introduced the false teaching that the Bible teaches that we do not have free will, Calvin quoted him over 400 times in his
Institutes. White uses the same false claims as Calvin. We have been given the ability to respond or suppress as Gregg points out when
we hear the Gospel therefore we are commanded to spread the Gospel to everyone by the Lord.
to supress IS A RESPONSE ..... and the only response to the word of God available to any man in the flesh ........... unless and until God intervenes........... with the GIFT of faith ............
man has no abilty to please God without God ..........
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Textbook Calvinistic response. Guess who had the same interpretation regarding salvation? The gnostics (mainly the Manicheans), St. Augustine borrow those ideas from them. You can do your own research and make your own conclusions.
@@michaelmichael-ci8hiare you a bot? I know iv seen this kind of response alot
@@user-dd1bz9hb5c no ........
Whites cross examination is getting old. Says opponent doesn’t follow each verse in said text (even after opponent does exactly that, and puts further context by explaining text before and after said text, and other supportive text). Then he says that’s not relevant.
The Deterministic viewpoint of God is self defeating. It says God determines/decrees everything including evil for His glory. It says we have no free will to choose. This viewpoint along with total depravity changes Gods character altogether. It ultimately suggests that God allows/enables man to choose the wrong god, but not Him, the one true God. Then He writes the first commandment, “No other gods before me”? Calvinism is a deceitful viewpoint that ultimately lessens Christ sacrifice, takes away our requirement to trust in Christ solely for salvation, and changes Gods very character. It does all of this in the name of Gods Sovereignty. It is one of the cleverest deceptions of the enemy to twist the salvation Gospel message, and our understanding of Gods Character.
This fifth part was by far the best part of the five days. Thanks! Christ love! ✝️
What did Paul himself say about his conversion? "I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision."
After listening to all 5 parts of this, I now understand why James White refuses to debate Orthodox apologist Jay Dyer. James knows he's not equipped to take Jay on...his clear inadequacy shine bright in this debate
Oh give me a break. Perhaps you might subscribe to the Dividing Line and do a search, or ask a question to White about it? You might find he's tried or maybe not. I think White has handled every argument about how Scripture alone must be our only ultimate authority over tradition. That would probably cover Orthodoxy pretty well. But perhaps also the topics that could be discussed have been handled somewhere and Orthodoxy isn't front and center presently in White's mind? Could be a million reasons why. But I doubt White is afraid of any man when he is going to approach any debate centered on what God's Word says. Any other point of contact will fail no matter how smart these people are.
Great debate! I listened to all five and have to say that both Steve and James represented their views very well. I have one discrepancy with James and how he used his proof texts to support his arguments. It seems to me, and this would be common among most Calvinist that I’ve listened to, that James would use select verses along the theme of what he was trying to communicate but he used them as though they were in a vacuum. Understanding biblical texts requires that we take the whole of scripture into consideration or we could easily strewn together all kinds of doctrines by simply using versus in an isolated way. Good hermeneutics always requires a balanced view of the Bible, and it seems to me that Calvinism, in many instances, emphasize certain portions of the Bible above others that would naturally soften some of their tenets. With all that being said, I respect James for his passion for God’s word, but I would have to side with what the Bible says and with Steve’s interpretation of it regarding Calvinism.
James used proof CHAPTERS properly exegeted ...... and the other not so much if at all ............
Oh my... These answers are brutal. White will literally not allow for any interpretation other than his own even if the other interpretation is closer to the text.
I think White refuses to turn the chess board around and see it the other way. He simply reads the passage, shares his view, and claims he exegetes. However he never goes beyond that. He will mention antecedents and grammar, etc., but even in light of that it doesn't negate Greg's view at all. I wish White would dive deeper, I suspect he fears to, and/or his stubbornness disallows it.
Steve does the same thing to be honest...they both strongly defend their positions...that's what debates are...
That's the nature of the beast...!
Both Gregg and White are wrong because they lack the knowledge of what Jesus revealed in the parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13:24-43.. Jesus revealed in this parable that there are only two kinds of people in the world, the children of God and the children of the devil.. All the children of God are predestined to be saved and all the children of the devil are predestined to be damned..
Example of the children of the devil can be found in John 8:44.. Exanple of the children of God can be found in Psalm 82:6 and Romans 8:14..
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo this is a ridiculous take. I'm sorry, You're nullifying thousands of chapters of Scripture. You stand alone on this.
@@TheOverlapLifewithTimBarber Please prove me wrong by the scriptures not by tradition...
Agree with Steve on all but one thing. Steve stated, an objection to," that God lets people do everything they want." No scripture supports that God prevents what humans want.
A consequence is not a prevention of human will.
Influence is not a prevention of human will.
God can harden a human will, but God did not prevent Pharoah's will.
If human will is capable of an action, the human can choose that action, by God's human design.
While it is true I can desire anything, this doesn't mean my will can achieve that desire.
I can desire to flap my arms and fly, but no effort of my will can acheive it. Why? Because some things are not in our human ability, human capacity....because of our design, created by God, our designer.
I see no evidence in scripture supporting your claim.
Could God prevent His human creation from, " doing everything they want?" Yes, but the question is did or does God do that?
Where is the evidence in scripture?
Again, Consequence and influence by God is not prevention of human will or desires.
Overall, excellent job, Steve.
Very weak arguments here in support of Calvinism. In the flesh can refer to a believer or a Nonbeliever.
The Bible’s calls us believers Saints who are saved by grace who still sin! But we know when we sin and we turn from it and repent of it.
What’s the point in repentance if you’re choosen ?
Great job by Dr. James. It's amazing how arminians ignore the word 'predestined' in the bible.
Yeah I agree it’s confusing for sure. That’s why I like provisionists view of predestination and election more than the Arminianism view. But regardless election and predestination is in the Bible so it’s unavoidable
Yes but what does election and predestined mean according to the bible?
@@user-dd1bz9hb5c exactly! And who does the election?
@user-dd1bz9hb5c this is a task for people that are trying to redefine 'predestination'. They need to explain why biblical authors would resort to this concept if there's no actual predestination going on, and if there's why wouldn't a partial predestination not equate to open theism!?
A BIG YES!
One person thinks Calvinism is true while another thinks it's false.
But if God is controlling the thoughts of both, who is correct ?
Reading the Bible is no help as one's interpretation of scripture is also completely controlled by God under Calvin.
Calvinism is internally logically inconsistent.
The Bible instructs "let us reason together" and "test all things."
Peace and Love
God bless you all.
btw,
...under calvinism, I had no choice but to post that.
@sparkyy0007, Both Gregg and White are wrong because they lack the knowledge of what Jesus revealed in the parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13:24-43.. Jesus revealed in this parable that there are only two kinds of people in the world, the children of God and the children of the devil.. All the children of God are predestined to be saved and all the children of the devil are predestined to be damned..
Example of the children of the devil can be found in John 8:44.. Exanple of the children of God can be found in Psalm 82:6 and Romans 8:14..
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo
According to reformed theology, absolutely everything is controlled by God including all our thoughts about scripture.
As such, there is no way to make any truth claims to critique those who disagree with predestination as their thoughts are also controlled by God.
Disagree ? ....you don't believe God is absolutely sovereign ?
Therefore reformed theology is logically internally inconsistent regarding any truths, and sufferers the same logical dilemma as atheistic naturalism.
You cannot love without free will.
Peace and love
God bless you all
@@sparkyy0007 , Sorry bro, I am not a Cakvinist..
@@sparkyy0007 ,
WHAT is the BIBLICAL Docrtrine
of ELECTION and PREDESTINA
TION?
Jesus revealed this doctrine of
Election and Predestination in
the parable of Wheat and Tares
In this parable, Jesus revealed
the doctrine of election and pre
destination..and who are those
people who are predestined to
be saved, and those predestined
to be burned in the lake of fire..
Jesus revealed in this parable
that those who are predestined
to be saved are the children of
God literally..
And those who are predestined
to be cast to the Lake of fire
are the children of the devil
literally..
Adam and his descendants are
the children of God because
Adam is a true son of God as
revealed in Luke 3:38...
Cain and his descendants are
the children of the devil
because Cain is the seed of the
serpent(devil) as mentioned in
Genesis 3:15...
Cain is not the son of Adam, he
is not included in the Genealogy
of Adam in Genesis 5...
Cain has his own Genealogy in
Genesis 4.. all the descendants
of Cain are very evil people like
him...
Jesus revealed in this parable
also that there are only 2 kinds
of people in the world, they are
the children of God literally and
the children of the devil literally
The children of God are called
Elect, and the children of the
devil are called reprobates...
Sometimes Jesus called the
Elect Sheep and the Reprobate
Goat.. All the Elect are
predestined to be saved, and
all the Reprobates are
predestine to be burned in the
Lake of Fire...
Jesus gave His Life only for the
Sheep(Elect) John 10:15
EXAMPLE of the children of the
devil can be found in John 8:44
EXAMPLE of the children of God
can be found in Psalm 82:6 and
in Romans 8:14..
Having the knowledge of the
Parable of Wheat and Tares
can answer the age-old
Mystery of what will happen
to a newly born child who
died or to the unborn fetus
who died in the womb..
GOD BLESS YOU ALL WHO
BELIEVES IN THIS REVELATION
OF JESUS IN THE PARABLE
OF WHEAT and TARES...
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo
If you are not a Cakvinist, I don't understand your post.
Are you implying predestination is true ?
James White is a determinist. WLC correctly pointed this fact out. Thats the underlying philosophy he uses, and it affects his exegesis and interpretation of biblical texts. He starts with the presupposition that God controls all things including moving people's wills to commit sin, however the bible teaches the opposite in regards to God commanding or committing sin. Determinism isn't compatible with justice, mercy, love, judgment, goodness, etc. Those would only have any real meaning if the parties involved were free in the libertarian sense. Determinism isn't clearly taught from scripture.
James is a determinst .... cuz .... God and scripture is the same ...... otherwise there would be no prophecy or false prophets ......... and no false teachers ..... but all are in abundance ...... cuz God determined it to be so ................
@michaelmichael-ci8hi I'm sorry, but I disagree on the basis of scripture. God sovereignly predestines all things, but He does not predetermine libertarian creatures' actions, including sinful and evil actions. Those are decisions made freely by the creature (men and angels) apart from any predetermination on God's part.
Predestination and predetermination are distinct ideas. As a Molinist, I affirm God is omniscient and omnipotent, and knows the truth value of all counterfactuals (or subjunctive conditionals), and therefore, it is easy for God to know how free creatures would act in any situation. And so God can predestine this world while taking into account libertarian free creatures, who act freely, but God is free to accomplish His purposes through both men and angel. None are able to escape being fully known by God.
@@jasongillis1336 so you are saying that God did not determine that the Red Sea part and determined the Israelites to walk across on DRY LAND ..... and then God did not know that the Pharoahs army would follow them after a suitable delay at Pharoahs behest to slaughter them all ...... to then close the sea on top of them destroying all of them .....and God did not harden Pharoah heart to do all these things as scripture says ..... cuz it was not possible for God to ..... WHAT .......
or that God did not determine that Abrahm would be a 75 year old pagan worshipping false gods ....and that it was Abrahms self determination to choose a different god ..... cuz free will ...... and that God had no part of that .... that God did not determine that Abrahm would be and was the only person who was ever going to be that person .... but God has a plan B .......
got ANY scripture for stuff like that ...........
@@jasongillis1336 BTW ....there is no such thing as a libertarian free creature ...... you are either a slave to sin ... or to righteousness ........ there is no third class of creature in scripture .......... and slaves are by defiition NOT FREE ..........
The lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the Lord. Proverbs 16:33 Gosh, it's almost as if the Bible is a "determinist", or deterministic. But the Westminster confession describes God's actions this way, "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." So "ordain" in this context doesn't mean 'directly causes or caused'.
So there you have it! Those who lean towards a more 'Calvinistic' or 'Augustinian' view of salvation do believe in free will. [Remember that there are a variety of views even amongst so called, "Calvinists"]
I think it would be more Christ-like [i.e., truthful] of you to actually quote where Dr. White says that "God controls all things including *moving people's wills to commit sin*". That may be inaccurate as to what Dr White actually believes. But Paul does say, "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all."
So does 'consign' mean the same thing as 'cause'? Hopefully we can all agree that's not the same thing.
But if you're going to use the words, "determinist" or "determinism" can you show more directly where the Bible condemns these words, rather than your own opinion or philosophical inferences/conclusions?
I mean, goodness, do we not rejoice that, "God works all things together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose"?,
Oh no!! 'Determinism!!
As well as: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him *who works all things according to the counsel of his will*"?
Oh no!! Determinism again!
We also note Paul's words to the Athenians, "...And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, *having determined allotted periods and the boundaries* of their dwelling place...".
Oh no!! Determinism again!
And, in regards to salvation: "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Also, "No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws[drags] him." And in verse 65, "No one can come...unless it is granted by my Father."
ugh! determinism again!
Paul helps us with his comment to the Philippians in chapter 1, verse 29, "For it has been *granted to you* that for the sake of Christ you should not only *believe in him* but also suffer for his sake...".
Even Molinism could be described as "deterministic"--to some degree. If God considered all the possible worlds, and from among them determined which were feasible for His overall purpose; and finally, instantiates the one particular world where all the circumstances are in place that would [secondarily] "cause" free creatures [to act or react] to carry out all that was necessary to fulfill His purpose(s), then God definitely had a purpose in mind before He created anything, and He was definitely determined to cause [secondarily through the actions of free creatures] His purpose to be realized or fulfilled. Even Dr. Craig recognized in his Defender's Class lectures that at least one version of Molimism was "very close" to Calvinism. 🙂
White states, "the universal sinfulness of man " referring to Rom 3: 10-18. " none seeks after God."
"None is righteous," is Paul quoting O.T verse.
Go read it. Those that are "unrighteous," refers to a specific people at a specific time and to a specific circumstance. And what is that specific? Rejection of God, of His existence.
Scripture makes clear the specifics.
Paul's O.T quotes in his writing to the church in Rome is a reminder, a warning to the church...not an indictment of all mankind as White states.
Read each and every O.T. quote in its entirety that Paul presents. ROM 3: 10-18. Go to the O.T. that Paul quotes.
White's claim falls apart.
If God determined each person's destiny before they were born, assigned to either heaven or hell, how would my evangelizing have any affect what so ever?
Charles Spurgeon admitted that evangelizing and determinism appeared to be a contradiction....but then concluded he would do evangelism any way....because God commanded it.
God has commanded of us to do or not do things we do not like, but.....would God command us to do something that we cannot understand.
Interesting: WORD in Greek is logos, and logos, means reason.
"Come let us reason together."
Are we to ignore basic reasoning? Are we to ignore clear contradiction or inconsistency in teachings?
There are mysteries we have not solved, and may not solve, but a mystery in scripture regarding our salvation?
No, the claim of "mystery," is the explanation of Calvinist that can't explain a contradiction Calvinists created.
Your evangelizing is a command, so you should do it. As regards to if it will produce fruit or not is in God's hands. We believe because the message was told to us (faith comes by hearing) and belief happened because God did a work in our hearts (no man can see the kingdom unless he be born again/from above). So if you preach to every creature, then they will be held to account one way or the other. We do not preach to glorify ourselves, we preach to glorify God! Whether that be in mercy or in condemnation is Gods prerogative. That is the difference between a man-centered theology and a Christ-centered theology. All brings God glory in the end, either showing His undeserved grace and mercy or showing His merited judgment and wrath, as the wrath of God already looms over anyone who rejects the only begotten Son of God. They already stand condemned. But by grace are we saved, and it is a gift. Am I making it clear?
@kimmykimko
All true.
What we non calvinist argue against is that audience we preach to are comprised of humans predestined to heaven, and those predestined to hell.
We are not arguing that our preaching WILL produce a certain outcome. We do not know who will listen, repent and be saved.....but we preach any way. It is in God's hands who will be saved or not.
There is NO point in preaching/teaching if each person's destiny was determined before they were born.
Just to put a fine point on it, God knowing the outcome, is not God causing the outcome.
so you are saying that Paul ..... and the scriptures of Romans 3 ........... ARE WRONG ...... and that Paul, and through him The Holy Spirit ARE IN ERROR .............
i would think that position needs a rethink and a true REexamination ...........
@@kimmykimko BOOM ..............
@@sheilasmith7779 "What we non calvinist argue against is that audience we preach to are comprised of humans predestined to heaven, and those predestined to hell."
there are only THOSE TWO groups of people ..... and those TWO DESTINATIONS ..............
there is no third possibility in scripture ................... unless you are making things up ...............
"There is NO point in preaching/teaching if each person's destiny was determined before they were born."
yes there is ..... we do not know the when and why and where of who will be saved ....... so all preaching is to be indescriminate ...... and wide ...... and the rest is in Gods hands ALONE ...........
Excellent Steve 👍
25:20 James creates a strawman that non Calvinists think they can know who is going to respond in faith. I have never heard any sincere, mature Christian state such a thing. Some immature believers in the Word of faith movement may say they can know SOME who may believe, but even they believe that God commands us to preach to every person on earth. James is great at knocking down straw men.
This segment's Q&A structure was very productive & much better than the attempt in Part 4. Thank you to all involved who learned from that & helped bring us this presentation.
This is an important topic because both Arminians & Reformed tend to straw-man the other side. With Arminians, they set Calvinists up as the boogeyman and the subject one mustn't discuss; any response is usually limited to throwing out isolated verses like a crucifix in an old Vampire film just to shut down discussion.
On the other side, my Reformed brothers usually claim that Arminians deliberately celebrate their choosing of Jesus, rather than glorifying God who did such a redeeming work to allow them to make that choice. Theoretically, this strawman sounds plausible, but is laughably false in the practice of nearly all Arminian churches. An Arminian giving his testimony gives the glory to God effusively when describing when they accepted Jesus into their heart. They do NOT celebrate their brilliant choice. Yet the typical Reformed circle often casts their Arminian brothers this way.
Having served joyfully for years amongst both groups, I've seen these things firsthand. But I have no doubt that all of them are my Christian brothers.
Both sides should be patient with one another and listen and give up the caricatures.
Thank the Lord that perfect understanding of theology is not required for salvation & that He saves to the uttermost even those who might err in part of their understanding of God.
Study the Scriptures carefully and ask God for wisdom to learn which view is accurate. Don't settle for any strawman; rather, come to the Son of Man and know Him better by His Word.
Great debate...love both these brothers...learned a lot from both sides...but I would lean more toward Dr. James White position...that is after listening to all 5 episodes...!
Steve got his clock cleaned. Anybody who doesnt believe in eternal security isnt worth debating. Steve is a semi Pelagian at best
To be totally respectful in humility- we must recognize we all have false understandings- so then be gracious.
Even though I agree with the essence of what you are saying here, and we must always have humility whenever we know we are correct in anything for the sake of the "weaker" brother....the "recognition of the fact we don't understand everything" is big Eva virtuosity. The spin which is basically sentimentalism. We should be gracious in pointing out the falsity of the other position - but pointing it out, that, we MUST do.
James White is blinded by his own arrogance.
Thinking he knows it all
2 Timothy 3:7 KJV
ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
It's possible you are correct. But you are also arrogant calling someone arrogant. Only God knows the heart.
Arnt you doing the same😂
White makes much about the dead in sin enemies of God hating and never seeking Him. But he already conceded the debate by admitting that slaves to sin CAN WANT FREEDOM, twice (once each in parts 1 and 4). That's a denial of Total Depravity right there, and all the other petals of ULIP fall off as a result.
They don't even know that they're enslaved. Therefore they wouldn't know they needed freedom in the first place.
@@Chesterchurch Sure, you can make that argument. But the fact remains that White cannot consistently use this argument when he twice admitted that slaves to sin, in particular, may want freedom.
@@scottthong9274 whether they want freedom or not doesn't matter, because the only one who can grant them That freedom is Christ, and the natural man is at enmity with Him. And Cannot even understand or comprehend spiritual things
@@Chesterchurch Again, you can make that argument. But again, that is not the point of my comment - my point is that James White is being inconsistent with his own Calvinism once again.
@@scottthong9274 you need the qualifier. They can't want freedom if it's only found in Christ.
In order to make since of a Calvinist you need a Calvinist dictionary.
For example, today we will look at the word
Depravity = dead spiritually and mentally, men are not capable of responding to the gospel, nor responding to the glory of God on their own, they are the walking dead, both spiritually and mentally.
Timelime 8:30,
Steve asks according to a Calvinist, were does Paul define this belief (cannot believe, cannot repent, cannot seek God).
Notice how a Calvinist (James) takes Roman 8:7 out of context:
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot or, “not able to do so.”
James states “for it is not even able to do so” in other words, for a Calvinist, for some persons, the mind has been predetermined not to respond, some whether they know it or not, are pre-programed to be in the flesh (too bad for you guys).
Now let’s put the passage in context starting in Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
(notice “live according to the flesh” comes before “set their minds on”).
They the sinner determine for themselves to set their minds on the flesh, not God.
We can easily deduct that the way we live determines the way we live.
Wonder why James did not mention that?
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (notice once again it’s how we live).
Ah yes, it’s a personal choice… to live according to the spirit, by doing what? Putting to death the deeds of the body/flesh.
Death to Flesh/deeds=life
Timeline 10:50 James states “they love to please Him (Christians), put themselves in that situation” those who live by the spirit. James just stated it’s a personal choice by his own admission.
You can see now, how a Calvinist loves to have their cake and eat it too, but only at the expense of God controlling your minds,
you zombies you.
Excellent analysis.
You take the Bible and then say it's a Calvinistic interpretation. The Bible simply says people in the flesh are unable to submit to God. That's got nothing to do with John Calvin, but what God says about unregenerate people. The idea you could respond to God before he regenerates you is nonsense, otherwise there will be people in Hell who could have gone to Heaven, if only they'd made the right choice. I hope the problems with this line of thinking become clear to you :)
JW in closing 47:30- Christianity is under attack (by decree) we are losing our freedoms (by decree) secularism is on the rise (by decree) Islam is growing (by decree) soooo. It’s important to be a Calvinist so you know EVERYTHING is decreed even this debate. God debated Himself since he determined all of JW’s thoughts and words and did the same for Steve. Yep Calvinism makes complete sense.
"We believe in Free Will because we know about it's behaviors but not about its causes" Jonathan Edwards.
another one in grevious error ......
Jonathan Edwards was in error. Indeed.@@michaelmichael-ci8hi
@@drummersagainstitk @michaelmichael-ch8hi , if I remember rightly I think Edwards implies elsewhere that he means by this that yes we are totally free to chose according to our desires, but that in the bondage of sin we don't ever desire God, our desires are only ever sinful, that natural man does not desire the things of God. John Piper (who has done a lot of study of Edwards) picks up on this idea in his teaching ministry. I am sure Edwards is wrong in many things, but I think the rest of the body of his work describes what he means by the term you are objecting to (particularly in light of how it is used by many Christians today!). Hope this helps! :)
All Calvinists should be required to watch The Soft White Underbelly channel everyday for one year. At the end of one year if you still affirm God's "decree" then you're just an ideologue. I hope this helps. @@daveyo8221
@@daveyo8221slaves are not free ......... therefore their will is not theirs or free ...... it is not a biblical category ..... it is a made up philosophy ............. and the ones who made it up had no scriptures ...... nor do those who hold to it today ....................
i was speaking only of Edwards on this point ..................
STEVE GREGG site should be called THEWIDEPATH because ACCORDING TO HIM, GOD LOVES EVERYBODY THE SAME AND JESUS DIED FOR ALL PEOPLE!
Didnt the bible say so???😮
John 3 vs 16 for God so loved the ..... that he gave His only son that .....believes in Him shall not perish???
Titus 2:11 NET
[11] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
Yes Mr Gregg, give White his view that O Jerusalem refers to the leaders... It makes his case WORSE, because it's not merely people whom Jesus wants to save who can prevent His desire - it is OTHER PEOPLE who can thwart God's salvific will!
Steve, there’s nothing difficult to understand about the non-Calvinist position. You believe that it’s ultimately something better in the carnal heart/mind of the believer than that of the unbeliever. To become “in Christ” which you view as corporate election, ultimately depends upon the carnal, fallen will of men. Some men have the desire for God and others do not. It’s not God who does the work that people believe (as Jesus says in John 6:29). It’s the work of man to believe. You may say it’s not a work, but the Bible says it is, that it’s the work of God that people believe. Credit ultimately goes to man in believing, according to the non-Calvinist, whether they want to admit it or not. By admitting what your system logically and biblically says, your system is found to be what it is, unbiblical.
Hello dear friend,
May God bless you and your loved ones abundantly.
I hope you don’t mind if I share something with you.
I wonder if you would please consider this and let me know what you think.
James White was asked where in the Scriptures he got the doctrine that people dead in their sins can’t repent and believe the Gospel - he replied with Romans 8:5-9.
I believe Calvinists doubly misunderstand that passage.
Let me explain the first misunderstanding : which is if it did mean what Calvinists say it means then Calvinism has a huge self-defeating problem.
Because:
according to Calvinism verse 9 means it’s impossible to have faith/please God without first having the Spirit of God dwell in us.
**BUT** according to multiple verses in the Bible we are only given/receive the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith:
The following verses (I’ll only quote 3 for brevity) are all explicitly clear that we only receive the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith (please God):
“This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
…
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?”
Galatians 3:2, 5
-
“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
Galatians 3:13-14
-
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom (IN HIM) also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Ephesians 1:13
That’s a huge self-defeating problem for Calvinism - because it says you can’t please God (have faith) before the Spirit dwells in you, but scripture is crystal clear we only get the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith/believe.
Who’s wrong: Calvinism or Scripture?
Would you be able to explain how any Calvinist person ever managed to please God/have faith BEFORE the Spirit dwelled inside them???
Because if they hadn’t been given the Spirit, according to Calvinism, that means they were still in the flesh and incapable of pleasing God/having faith.
???????????????????
According to Calvinism, how does anyone ever please God/have faith??? Because you Calvinists say Romans 8 says it’s impossible to do that unless the Spirit dwells inside you - but Scripture is crystal clear we only receive the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith.
Calvinism’s mistaken interpretation of Romans 8 is self-defeating.
-------
-------
Calvinism has another problem because the following verse clearly states that before Pentecost the Holy Spirit hadn’t been given:
“The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
John 7:38-39
So therefore, according to Calvinism’s interpretation of Romans 8, no one before Pentecost could ever please God (have faith).
So how did anyone in the Old Testament, like Abraham, have faith and please God BEFORE the Spirit was given???
Also, the following verses show people having faith and believing in the Gospels BEFORE Pentecost and before the Spirit was given:
“But many of the crowd believed in Him; and they were saying, “When the Christ comes, He will not perform more signs than those which this man has done, will He?””
John 7:31
Q for Calvinist: how did they believe without the Holy Spirit dwelling in them?
"Daughter, YOUR FAITH has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering." - Mark 5:34
And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; YOUR FAITH has made you well." - Mark 10:52
"Take courage, daughter," He said, "YOUR FAITH has healed you." - Matthew 9:22
''Daughter, YOUR FAITH has made you well; go in peace." - Luke 8:48
According to Calvinism’s interpretation of Romans 8, it’s impossible for them to please God (have faith) because the Spirit didn’t dwell in them.
----
----
I hope all of that makes you begin to wonder if you have the correct understanding of Romans 8:5-9 - because, I believe scripture indicates you haven’t.
So, as for Calvinism’s second misunderstanding about that passage in Romans 8 - please consider the passage again but in the CEV translation:
“People who are ruled by their desires think only of themselves. Everyone who is ruled by the Holy Spirit thinks about spiritual things. If our minds are ruled by our desires, we will die. But if our minds are ruled by the Spirit, we will have life and peace. Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws. ***If we follow our desires, we cannot please God. *** You are no longer ruled by your desires, but by God's Spirit, who lives in you. People who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them don't belong to him. But Christ lives in you. So you are alive because God has accepted you, even though your bodies must die because of your sins.”
Romans 8:5-10 CEV
What it means is: while you are following the desires of the flesh, you can’t please God.
That’s all it means.
I can point you to a video explaining the Greek if you are interested.
Also: please think - if that passage meant what Calvinism says it means, because it’s often badly translated - it contradicts most of Romans - because Paul spends most his time stressing that salvation is through faith alone.
If Paul believed in Calvinistic regeneration, surely he should have stressed it’s got nothing to do with faith and entirely depends on whether you’re elect or not.
Why did Paul waste so much time saying every man is responsible to respond to God and have faith???
Maybe because that’s exactly what he meant.
Great debate.Steve needs to be more efficient and James needs to be more to the actual point.
Gods character is not hidden in the scriptures. Its not up for debate, It does not need to be proved.
Though it does not do away with His obvious soverienty, His need to punish evil and judge righteously, Love, the main character of God, was made possible by the Great architect and is shown to perfection in the Creators coming as our savior, the messiah.
That being said, all challenges to that character must be meet with severe skepticism.
Calling God out as the author of all evil, all rapes and all torture,
saying He wants a few of his kids and tosses the rest into eternal torment, for His glory BTW,
saying He made us all to hate Him, to be his enemies, is a serious charge by calvinists.
Against the whole of scripture, determinism misses the mark by about a 1000 miles.
If one thinks with
the mind
of the flesh
instead of with
the mind
of the spirit
they cannot see God.
John 14 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;[a] believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?[b] 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.”[c] 5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.[d] From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will HE do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me[e] anything in My Name, I will do it. ( Holy, Holy, Holy - Luke 11:13* )
Now, think for a reason with the mind of your spirit instead of the mind of your flesh.
For example, an atheist has the ability to think with the mind of the spirit instead of the mind of the flesh.
Ephesians 2:3
among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Even an atheist can change their mind about why they think for a reason.
See the tree of life and the knowledge of the tree of good and evil?
See what is common among humanity after sin and death, Satan revealed as the murderer of us all? Yet see who seeks us that we might seek Him in the spirit of truth?
Acts 17- Man was created in God's image. It is the truth. It cannot be avoided, as it is actual. But it can be denied as it can be believed, with equal weights and measures as God has established. Philippians 2
Romans 4:13-15
13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
Calvinism works to set forth a law about who is saved. It is 'literally' antithetical to the proclamation of The Good News. Test: What is The Good News?
Who is suppressing the truth about the power of God for salvation?
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
1 Peter 4:17
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
Rev 22:17 What are they doing? What are they proclaiming for someone else to do?
Revelation 22:17
17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
For those who repeat who repeat the behaviors of the past , from the beginning to 70ad. Romans 10
About repeated behaviors in the present, like those in the past: Rev 2-3
A thought worth sharing among all claiming to believe- A contending for the believer, by unbelievers who point their finger at the churches, as if the reason for them to deny the truth: Jesus the Christ is not surprised by behaviors found in the churches. He reveals it to us.
Worth repeating: Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
Understanding one angle and perspective of worthy : And Paul and Barnabas, having spoken boldly, said, "It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you. But since you thrust it away and do not judge yourselves worthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. In Acts 13
Who would desire self-esteem and deny God given worth? Maybe worth thinking about for a reason. 1Cor1-3,4us.
Love covers over a multitude of sins. Maybe someone will be persuaded. Who is promised toDay for another? Rev 19:10/ Worth repeating Rev 22:17
Ephesians 6:10-18 with open hands and not an angry fist, the good fight. If God is for us who could be against us? Rev 1, as revealed after 70ad about our tribulations.
Recapitulating
Amen!
The strong gatekeeping of the Gospel within Calvinism, is one of my biggest problems with it.
Both Gregg and White are wrong because they lack the knowledge of what Jesus revealed in the parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13:24-43.. Jesus revealed in this parable that there are only two kinds of people in the world, the children of God and the children of the devil.. All the children of God are predestined to be saved and all the children of the devil are predestined to be damned..
Example of the children of the devil can be found in John 8:44.. Exanple of the children of God can be found in Psalm 82:6 and Romans 8:14..
White says let Paul interpretat Paul? Agreed, Romans 11:11,23 refute the Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9 as being about Unconditional Reprobation unto Damnation.
Why fulfill the great commission if everything has been predetermined? It would make no sense at all? The second covenant tells us how loving God and others is the law. How can God go against his own commandments and not chose someone and therefore not love them? No way!
How can grace be grace if God is obligated to give it to all?
Because God sovereignly appointed means to accomplish His will: i.e. His Church spreading His Gospel and make disciples. We have a job to do which is clear in Scripture, but God Himself transforms hearts and gives the increase, also clear in Scripture.
Some see "Fatalism", others see an open invitation from God to be Faithful, without fear of failure.
Wow !! White completely DESTROYED!! I mean WOW!!
Surprised this channel posted this! 😂
I doubt anyone would agree with you. They both did a good job, however, God would not be a God who truly loves those who believe in His Son, grieves over sin, and punishes sinner in righteousness if God is the one determining and decreeing and forming all people to act in accordance with his will.
Hello dear friend,
May God bless you and your loved ones abundantly.
I hope you don’t mind if I share something with you.
I wonder if you would please consider this and let me know what you think.
James White was asked where in the Scriptures he got the doctrine that people dead in their sins can’t repent and believe the Gospel - he replied with Romans 8:5-9.
I believe Calvinists doubly misunderstand that passage.
Let me explain the first misunderstanding : which is if it did mean what Calvinists say it means then Calvinism has a huge self-defeating problem.
Because:
according to Calvinism verse 9 means it’s impossible to have faith/please God without first having the Spirit of God dwell in us.
**BUT** according to multiple verses in the Bible we are only given/receive the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith:
The following verses (I’ll only quote 3 for brevity) are all explicitly clear that we only receive the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith (please God):
“This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
…
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?”
Galatians 3:2, 5
-
“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
Galatians 3:13-14
-
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom (IN HIM) also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Ephesians 1:13
That’s a huge self-defeating problem for Calvinism - because it says you can’t please God (have faith) before the Spirit dwells in you, but scripture is crystal clear we only get the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith/believe.
Who’s wrong: Calvinism or Scripture?
Would you be able to explain how any Calvinist person ever managed to please God/have faith BEFORE the Spirit dwelled inside them???
Because if they hadn’t been given the Spirit, according to Calvinism, that means they were still in the flesh and incapable of pleasing God/having faith.
???????????????????
According to Calvinism, how does anyone ever please God/have faith??? Because you Calvinists say Romans 8 says it’s impossible to do that unless the Spirit dwells inside you - but Scripture is crystal clear we only receive the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith.
Calvinism’s mistaken interpretation of Romans 8 is self-defeating.
-------
-------
Calvinism has another problem because the following verse clearly states that before Pentecost the Holy Spirit hadn’t been given:
“The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
John 7:38-39
So therefore, according to Calvinism’s interpretation of Romans 8, no one before Pentecost could ever please God (have faith).
So how did anyone in the Old Testament, like Abraham, have faith and please God BEFORE the Spirit was given???
Also, the following verses show people having faith and believing in the Gospels BEFORE Pentecost and before the Spirit was given:
“But many of the crowd believed in Him; and they were saying, “When the Christ comes, He will not perform more signs than those which this man has done, will He?””
John 7:31
Q for Calvinist: how did they believe without the Holy Spirit dwelling in them?
"Daughter, YOUR FAITH has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering." - Mark 5:34
And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; YOUR FAITH has made you well." - Mark 10:52
"Take courage, daughter," He said, "YOUR FAITH has healed you." - Matthew 9:22
''Daughter, YOUR FAITH has made you well; go in peace." - Luke 8:48
According to Calvinism’s interpretation of Romans 8, it’s impossible for them to please God (have faith) because the Spirit didn’t dwell in them.
----
----
I hope all of that makes you begin to wonder if you have the correct understanding of Romans 8:5-9 - because, I believe scripture indicates you haven’t.
So, as for Calvinism’s second misunderstanding about that passage in Romans 8 - please consider the passage again but in the CEV translation:
“People who are ruled by their desires think only of themselves. Everyone who is ruled by the Holy Spirit thinks about spiritual things. If our minds are ruled by our desires, we will die. But if our minds are ruled by the Spirit, we will have life and peace. Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws. ***If we follow our desires, we cannot please God. *** You are no longer ruled by your desires, but by God's Spirit, who lives in you. People who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them don't belong to him. But Christ lives in you. So you are alive because God has accepted you, even though your bodies must die because of your sins.”
Romans 8:5-10 CEV
What it means is: while you are following the desires of the flesh, you can’t please God.
That’s all it means.
I can point you to a video explaining the Greek if you are interested.
Also: please think - if that passage meant what Calvinism says it means, because it’s often badly translated - it contradicts most of Romans - because Paul spends most his time stressing that salvation is through faith alone.
If Paul believed in Calvinistic regeneration, surely he should have stressed it’s got nothing to do with faith and entirely depends on whether you’re elect or not.
Why did Paul waste so much time saying every man is responsible to respond to God and have faith???
Maybe because that’s exactly what he meant.
Nah. Arguing for calvanism destroys itself
I have boiled down the two views to two opposing questions (which both sides need to wrestle with honestly):
Anti-Calvinist to the Calvinist: "Why are you afraid to have a low view of God?"
Calvinist to Anti-Calvinist: "Why are you afraid to have a low view of man?"
Which is the more telling question?
The first question is not a problem unless you are tempted to wonder "Did God really say?"
The second question is a very real problem since we are all prone to sinful pride.
So, which view is more apt to keep me humble before God, thanking Him for grace and mercy, and not trusting my own wayward heart? It's pretty obvious.
Anti Calvinists are trying to answer the question, "Did God really say?" which is absolutely the wrong question to even take seriously.
Calvinist are trying to answer the question, "Who gets all the Glory in History?". That's the right questions. Peace to all.
Couldn't say it better! Glory to our Lord Jesus 🙏.
I think the better question to Calvinists would be: “if God is not sovereign even over individual salvation, does that make him a lesser God in some way?”
@@timothyvenable3336 And the better better question if non-Calvinistis are so obsessed with "protecting" God's character (i.e. He can't do that Himself?) doesn't that make Him a lesser God in some way, also?
Plus, there is no biblical mandate for the created to protect the creator. We see appeals in the Psalms and from Prophets to God Himself to protect His own name. Sometimes He does, sometimes He doesn't. But non-Calvinists act like that is their JOB.
The lost hate God, whether you "protect" His character or not. Wanting people to know God loves them is wonderful! Wanting to protect God's character is immature foolishness. God doesn't care what others say about Him. He cares about what YOU say. What is your testimony.
Jesus said, "Who do YOU say I am?"
non-believers say they were born that way, baby
so were we 👍
If you don’t have the best scripture defences, make sure you’re at least the most humble seeming.
My salvation depends upon my faith in Jesus, the Creator and the holy spirit. The holy triune. The rest is just speculation
Your faith is a GIFT from God.
James states clear scripture.
Steve: well I don’t agree with that interpretation.
😮
I know right! Every time James Totally rebuts Steve's point biblically, Steve will say -that wasn't my question.... When it absolutely WAS his question, he just doesn't like the biblical answer. So he pretends he didn't ask the question.
And i dont agree with your interpretation of that interpretation because iv been determined to 😂
"That's going to stand on its own weight"....Why? Because it is true Steve, but you just cannot accept it. This "debate" is so soundly one sided that it shows the bankruptcy of the Arminian position.
This is all about what you want God to be. People will read into Scripture what they want it to say. I am an ex-Calvinist of 20 years.
God can choose to use Paul even against his own free will if he so chooses but it doesn’t mean he’s doing that across the board.
Choosing Paul and the gifts God gave him for his glory is completely Biblical.
God can also harden Pharaohs heart or any other person he so chooses but it doesn’t mean he’s doing it to create the UN chosen ones!
God can do anything he wants!
If the Bible says he died for the Sins of the world that’s everyone but then we have the thief choosing to believe in Jesus and Jesus responds to that decision by saying he will be going to heaven. This blantantly suggest free will over selection.
Now Jesus probably knew this was going to happen and could have called the thief prior to the Crucifixion as chosen!
Gregg clearly won
I find it so problematic when brother Steve insists that those who suppress the truth of God, in Romans 1:18, are Jewish people, not Gentiles. The entirety of Paul's argument involves Jews and Gentiles. I am amazed at the lengths Steve goes to defend the ability of the sinner to believe and repent on his own when it is clear that the faith to believe is a gift from God (Eph 1:8). It's as if human autonomy in Arminianism must be defended at all cost. They're always in control of the time when they choose to believe or not. A spiritually dead man cannot choose God; he needs to be made alive first to believe in God (Eph.1:5)
It seems as if Arminians believe in "original goodness" or "original neutrality". Romans is clear that in Adam we all fell. And weed need the mercy of God to even begin to understand that we are dead in trespasses. Belief in God for salvation is not an ability that a sinner possesses naturally. The sheep needs to be drawn by the Father and once drawn and made alive no one would ever want to resist that gift.
@johnmark2927, Both Gregg and White are wrong because they lack the knowledge of what Jesus revealed in the parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13:24-43.. Jesus revealed in this parable that there are only two kinds of people in the world, the children of God and the children of the devil.. All the children of God are predestined to be saved and all the children of the devil are predestined to be damned..
Example of the children of the devil can be found in John 8:44.. Exanple of the children of God can be found in Psalm 82:6 and Romans 8:14..
It is Ephesians 2:8 not 1:8 that says: we are save by grace through faith and it is the gift of God.. The gift of God is not faith but our savation...
@@reynaldodavid2913Jothat is illogical just stop.
@@JohnMackeyIII, What is illogical bro?
Can you please refute this?
WHAT is the BIBLICAL Docrtrine
of ELECTION and PREDESTINA
TION?
Jesus revealed this doctrine of
Election and Predestination in
the parable of Wheat and Tares
In this parable, Jesus revealed
the doctrine of election and pre
destination..and who are those
people who are predestined to
be saved, and those predestined
to be burned in the lake of fire..
Jesus revealed in this parable
that those who are predestined
to be saved are the children of
God literally..
And those who are predestined
to be cast to the Lake of fire
are the children of the devil
literally..
Adam and his descendants are
the children of God because
Adam is a true son of God as
revealed in Luke 3:38...
Cain and his descendants are
the children of the devil
because Cain is the seed of the
serpent(devil) as mentioned in
Genesis 3:15...
Cain is not the son of Adam, he
is not included in the Genealogy
of Adam in Genesis 5...
Cain has his own Genealogy in
Genesis 4.. all the descendants
of Cain are very evil people like
him...
Jesus revealed in this parable
also that there are only 2 kinds
of people in the world, they are
the children of God literally and
the children of the devil literally
The children of God are called
Elect, and the children of the
devil are called reprobates...
Sometimes Jesus called the
Elect Sheep and the Reprobate
Goat.. All the Elect are
predestined to be saved, and
all the Reprobates are
predestine to be burned in the
Lake of Fire...
Jesus gave His Life only for the
Sheep(Elect) John 10:15
EXAMPLE of the children of the
devil can be found in John 8:44
EXAMPLE of the children of God
can be found in Psalm 82:6 and
in Romans 8:14..
Having the knowledge of the
Parable of Wheat and Tares
can answer the age-old
Mystery of what will happen
to a newly born child who
died or to the unborn fetus
who died in the womb..
GOD BLESS YOU ALL WHO
BELIEVES IN THIS REVELATION
OF JESUS IN THE PARABLE
OF WHEAT and TARES...
You need to work harder at understanding the Arminian position before publicly critiquing it.
Ok. The whole bible is speaking to believers. Because non believers do not believe it. So they will never even make it to the passage of prepare your heart before the LORD. I know one thing. When it was revealed to me that God is in control of everything, it made me less anxious. Because I know whatever happens in my Life now is what He wants to happen. Wether it be Humiliation, Discipline with the Rod, or Righteous acts of love, peace, kindness, and Joy. These are the things the LORD is in control of. I have no control of myself and neither do I trust myself to control wether I make a choice for him or not. I look to Him for everything.
Many, many unbelievers read the Bible - that's how many learn the gospel and surrender their lives to Christ. Many atheists read the Bible as they are trying to discredit it. There's even an online bible with atheist commentary on every passage.
Just 1 of those little things I find worth mentioning and giving thought to: No where in the scriptures is there mention of non believers. irreligious, yes, but not non believers. God's word speaks "unbeliever".
When I became a believer: While reading the bible and seeking for the truth.
It was just 'the christian bible'. While reading ' this bible' and seeking the truth I came to understand it was The Scriptures, ( in translation) the Holy BIble ( in translation) the Holy Scriptures. God transformed my mind during this activity. At the time , when I asked God for the truth, I did not understand that to ask God for The Truth was ask for what was Holy. But, God knows the heart and the mind of all about seeking to be found in THe Truth. Hebrews 11:6 One small lightbulb moment as the word of God is living and active, that we may come to understand that THE WORD of GOD is living and active. I finally did come to understand what I was seeing and hearing, a bit like Thomas but even slower to understand, seeing Jesus meet Thomas where he was at.
Now, with Thomas " my Lord and my God". And like the sinful forgiven women in Luke 7 I will pour out kisses onto his feet, confessing HIs name! How wondrous are His ways, that another may come to have peace that transcends understanding. I will proclaim the Good News, with the evidence knowing Christ Jesus had victory over death and believing every promise about forgiveness and revealed about eternal life- I have faith to receive forgiveness and to receive what I have not yet obtained, because Jesus the Christ was, is and is to come, the Faithful and True Witness. I was soooo thankful God is The Revelation of Truth and Love. I want the whole world to know Jesus the Christ came to save sinners like me. So, i contend and I proclaim to preach The Good News !!! Father , thank you, in THe Name of Jesus the Christ!!!! ( Hope this encourages another to contend for The Faith and to contend for The Good News. May all in the family, that now are left in the world, become more like Jesus Christ as God prepares us beforehand, about calling . John 17/ Rev 22:17
Jw... grotesque...many may believe him...but does ANYONE like him ???? 🤔
Steve Gregg clearly won this debate. He also won in kindness, gentleness, and civility.
Steve tries to play dumb more than once.
It's amazing how Steve Gregg when he has no follow up answer says let's move on to another question
It's amazing how you have no idea and just made that up. ~ Jason
@@SteveGreggVideosWhy isn’t James defending himself in the comments?
Both Gregg and White are wrong because they lack the knowledge of what Jesus revealed in the parable of Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13:24-43.. Jesus revealed in this parable that there are only two kinds of people in the world, the children of God and the children of the devil.. All the children of God are predestined to be saved and all the children of the devil are predestined to be damned..
Example of the children of the devil can be found in John 8:44.. Exanple of the children of God can be found in Psalm 82:6 and Romans 8:14..
If they are both wrong then what would you call this premise?
@@paulbarrera5026, What premise?
@@paulbarrera5026, I said they are both wrong because they did not know what Jesus revealed in the parable of Wheat and Tares..
WHAT is the BIBLICAL Docrtrine
of ELECTION and PREDESTINA
TION?
Jesus revealed this doctrine of
Election and Predestination in
the parable of Wheat and Tares
In this parable, Jesus revealed
the doctrine of election and pre
destination..and who are those
people who are predestined to
be saved, and those predestined
to be burned in the lake of fire..
Jesus revealed in this parable
that those who are predestined
to be saved are the children of
God literally..
And those who are predestined
to be cast to the Lake of fire
are the children of the devil
literally..
Adam and his descendants are
the children of God because
Adam is a true son of God as
revealed in Luke 3:38...
Cain and his descendants are
the children of the devil
because Cain is the seed of the
serpent(devil) as mentioned in
Genesis 3:15...
Cain is not the son of Adam, he
is not included in the Genealogy
of Adam in Genesis 5...
Cain has his own Genealogy in
Genesis 4.. all the descendants
of Cain are very evil people like
him...
Jesus revealed in this parable
also that there are only 2 kinds
of people in the world, they are
the children of God literally and
the children of the devil literally
The children of God are called
Elect, and the children of the
devil are called reprobates...
Sometimes Jesus called the
Elect Sheep and the Reprobate
Goat.. All the Elect are
predestined to be saved, and
all the Reprobates are
predestine to be burned in the
Lake of Fire...
Jesus gave His Life only for the
Sheep(Elect) John 10:15
EXAMPLE of the children of the
devil can be found in John 8:44
EXAMPLE of the children of God
can be found in Psalm 82:6 and
in Romans 8:14..
Having the knowledge of the
Parable of Wheat and Tares
can answer the age-old
Mystery of what will happen
to a newly born child who
died or to the unborn fetus
who died in the womb..
GOD BLESS YOU ALL WHO
BELIEVES IN THIS REVELATION
OF JESUS IN THE PARABLE
OF WHEAT and TARES...
Masterclass from James White!
Thomas, I see you deleted your earlier comment with all my responses. Why did you do that?
@@jasongillis1336 I didn't delete anything. I have commented practically in every video of this debate.
@thomasglass9491 I'm sorry, I stand corrected! I responded to your comment on another video. Thank you!
Hello dear friend,
May God bless you and your loved ones abundantly.
I hope you don’t mind if I share something with you.
I wonder if you would please consider this and let me know what you think.
James White was asked where in the Scriptures he got the doctrine that people dead in their sins can’t repent and believe the Gospel - he replied with Romans 8:5-9.
I believe Calvinists doubly misunderstand that passage.
Let me explain the first misunderstanding : which is if it did mean what Calvinists say it means then Calvinism has a huge self-defeating problem.
Because:
according to Calvinism verse 9 means it’s impossible to have faith/please God without first having the Spirit of God dwell in us.
**BUT** according to multiple verses in the Bible we are only given/receive the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith:
The following verses (I’ll only quote 3 for brevity) are all explicitly clear that we only receive the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith (please God):
“This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
…
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?”
Galatians 3:2, 5
-
“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
Galatians 3:13-14
-
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom (IN HIM) also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Ephesians 1:13
That’s a huge self-defeating problem for Calvinism - because it says you can’t please God (have faith) before the Spirit dwells in you, but scripture is crystal clear we only get the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith/believe.
Who’s wrong: Calvinism or Scripture?
Would you be able to explain how any Calvinist person ever managed to please God/have faith BEFORE the Spirit dwelled inside them???
Because if they hadn’t been given the Spirit, according to Calvinism, that means they were still in the flesh and incapable of pleasing God/having faith.
???????????????????
According to Calvinism, how does anyone ever please God/have faith??? Because you Calvinists say Romans 8 says it’s impossible to do that unless the Spirit dwells inside you - but Scripture is crystal clear we only receive the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith.
Calvinism’s mistaken interpretation of Romans 8 is self-defeating.
-------
-------
Calvinism has another problem because the following verse clearly states that before Pentecost the Holy Spirit hadn’t been given:
“The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
John 7:38-39
So therefore, according to Calvinism’s interpretation of Romans 8, no one before Pentecost could ever please God (have faith).
So how did anyone in the Old Testament, like Abraham, have faith and please God BEFORE the Spirit was given???
Also, the following verses show people having faith and believing in the Gospels BEFORE Pentecost and before the Spirit was given:
“But many of the crowd believed in Him; and they were saying, “When the Christ comes, He will not perform more signs than those which this man has done, will He?””
John 7:31
Q for Calvinist: how did they believe without the Holy Spirit dwelling in them?
"Daughter, YOUR FAITH has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering." - Mark 5:34
And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; YOUR FAITH has made you well." - Mark 10:52
"Take courage, daughter," He said, "YOUR FAITH has healed you." - Matthew 9:22
''Daughter, YOUR FAITH has made you well; go in peace." - Luke 8:48
According to Calvinism’s interpretation of Romans 8, it’s impossible for them to please God (have faith) because the Spirit didn’t dwell in them.
----
----
I hope all of that makes you begin to wonder if you have the correct understanding of Romans 8:5-9 - because, I believe scripture indicates you haven’t.
So, as for Calvinism’s second misunderstanding about that passage in Romans 8 - please consider the passage again but in the CEV translation:
“People who are ruled by their desires think only of themselves. Everyone who is ruled by the Holy Spirit thinks about spiritual things. If our minds are ruled by our desires, we will die. But if our minds are ruled by the Spirit, we will have life and peace. Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws. ***If we follow our desires, we cannot please God. *** You are no longer ruled by your desires, but by God's Spirit, who lives in you. People who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them don't belong to him. But Christ lives in you. So you are alive because God has accepted you, even though your bodies must die because of your sins.”
Romans 8:5-10 CEV
What it means is: while you are following the desires of the flesh, you can’t please God.
That’s all it means.
I can point you to a video explaining the Greek if you are interested.
Also: please think - if that passage meant what Calvinism says it means, because it’s often badly translated - it contradicts most of Romans - because Paul spends most his time stressing that salvation is through faith alone.
If Paul believed in Calvinistic regeneration, surely he should have stressed it’s got nothing to do with faith and entirely depends on whether you’re elect or not.
Why did Paul waste so much time saying every man is responsible to respond to God and have faith???
Maybe because that’s exactly what he meant.
James White did an excellent job.
Hello dear friend,
May God bless you and your loved ones abundantly.
I hope you don’t mind if I share something with you.
I wonder if you would please consider this and let me know what you think.
James White was asked where in the Scriptures he got the doctrine that people dead in their sins can’t repent and believe the Gospel - he replied with Romans 8:5-9.
I believe Calvinists doubly misunderstand that passage.
Let me explain the first misunderstanding : which is if it did mean what Calvinists say it means then Calvinism has a huge self-defeating problem.
Because:
according to Calvinism verse 9 means it’s impossible to have faith/please God without first having the Spirit of God dwell in us.
**BUT** according to multiple verses in the Bible we are only given/receive the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith:
The following verses (I’ll only quote 3 for brevity) are all explicitly clear that we only receive the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith (please God):
“This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
…
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?”
Galatians 3:2, 5
-
“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
Galatians 3:13-14
-
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom (IN HIM) also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Ephesians 1:13
That’s a huge self-defeating problem for Calvinism - because it says you can’t please God (have faith) before the Spirit dwells in you, but scripture is crystal clear we only get the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith/believe.
Who’s wrong: Calvinism or Scripture?
Would you be able to explain how any Calvinist person ever managed to please God/have faith BEFORE the Spirit dwelled inside them???
Because if they hadn’t been given the Spirit, according to Calvinism, that means they were still in the flesh and incapable of pleasing God/having faith.
???????????????????
According to Calvinism, how does anyone ever please God/have faith??? Because you Calvinists say Romans 8 says it’s impossible to do that unless the Spirit dwells inside you - but Scripture is crystal clear we only receive the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith.
Calvinism’s mistaken interpretation of Romans 8 is self-defeating.
-------
-------
Calvinism has another problem because the following verse clearly states that before Pentecost the Holy Spirit hadn’t been given:
“The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
John 7:38-39
So therefore, according to Calvinism’s interpretation of Romans 8, no one before Pentecost could ever please God (have faith).
So how did anyone in the Old Testament, like Abraham, have faith and please God BEFORE the Spirit was given???
Also, the following verses show people having faith and believing in the Gospels BEFORE Pentecost and before the Spirit was given:
“But many of the crowd believed in Him; and they were saying, “When the Christ comes, He will not perform more signs than those which this man has done, will He?””
John 7:31
Q for Calvinist: how did they believe without the Holy Spirit dwelling in them?
"Daughter, YOUR FAITH has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering." - Mark 5:34
And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; YOUR FAITH has made you well." - Mark 10:52
"Take courage, daughter," He said, "YOUR FAITH has healed you." - Matthew 9:22
''Daughter, YOUR FAITH has made you well; go in peace." - Luke 8:48
According to Calvinism’s interpretation of Romans 8, it’s impossible for them to please God (have faith) because the Spirit didn’t dwell in them.
----
----
I hope all of that makes you begin to wonder if you have the correct understanding of Romans 8:5-9 - because, I believe scripture indicates you haven’t.
So, as for Calvinism’s second misunderstanding about that passage in Romans 8 - please consider the passage again but in the CEV translation:
“People who are ruled by their desires think only of themselves. Everyone who is ruled by the Holy Spirit thinks about spiritual things. If our minds are ruled by our desires, we will die. But if our minds are ruled by the Spirit, we will have life and peace. Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws. ***If we follow our desires, we cannot please God. *** You are no longer ruled by your desires, but by God's Spirit, who lives in you. People who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them don't belong to him. But Christ lives in you. So you are alive because God has accepted you, even though your bodies must die because of your sins.”
Romans 8:5-10 CEV
What it means is: while you are following the desires of the flesh, you can’t please God.
That’s all it means.
I can point you to a video explaining the Greek if you are interested.
Also: please think - if that passage meant what Calvinism says it means, because it’s often badly translated - it contradicts most of Romans - because Paul spends most his time stressing that salvation is through faith alone.
If Paul believed in Calvinistic regeneration, surely he should have stressed it’s got nothing to do with faith and entirely depends on whether you’re elect or not.
Why did Paul waste so much time saying every man is responsible to respond to God and have faith???
Maybe because that’s exactly what he meant.
Hello dear friend,
May God bless you and your loved ones abundantly.
I hope you don’t mind if I share something with you.
I wonder if you would please consider this and let me know what you think.
James White was asked where in the Scriptures he got the doctrine that people dead in their sins can’t repent and believe the Gospel - he replied with Romans 8:5-9.
I believe Calvinists doubly misunderstand that passage.
Let me explain the first misunderstanding : which is if it did mean what Calvinists say it means then Calvinism has a huge self-defeating problem.
Because:
according to Calvinism verse 9 means it’s impossible to have faith/please God without first having the Spirit of God dwell in us.
**BUT** according to multiple verses in the Bible we are only given/receive the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith:
The following verses (I’ll only quote 3 for brevity) are all explicitly clear that we only receive the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith (please God):
“This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
…
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?”
Galatians 3:2, 5
-
“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
Galatians 3:13-14
-
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom (IN HIM) also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Ephesians 1:13
That’s a huge self-defeating problem for Calvinism - because it says you can’t please God (have faith) before the Spirit dwells in you, but scripture is crystal clear we only get the Spirit ***AFTER*** we have faith/believe.
Who’s wrong: Calvinism or Scripture?
Would you be able to explain how any Calvinist person ever managed to please God/have faith BEFORE the Spirit dwelled inside them???
Because if they hadn’t been given the Spirit, according to Calvinism, that means they were still in the flesh and incapable of pleasing God/having faith.
???????????????????
According to Calvinism, how does anyone ever please God/have faith??? Because you Calvinists say Romans 8 says it’s impossible to do that unless the Spirit dwells inside you - but Scripture is crystal clear we only receive the Spirit **AFTER** we have faith.
Calvinism’s mistaken interpretation of Romans 8 is self-defeating.
-------
-------
Calvinism has another problem because the following verse clearly states that before Pentecost the Holy Spirit hadn’t been given:
“The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
John 7:38-39
So therefore, according to Calvinism’s interpretation of Romans 8, no one before Pentecost could ever please God (have faith).
So how did anyone in the Old Testament, like Abraham, have faith and please God BEFORE the Spirit was given???
Also, the following verses show people having faith and believing in the Gospels BEFORE Pentecost and before the Spirit was given:
“But many of the crowd believed in Him; and they were saying, “When the Christ comes, He will not perform more signs than those which this man has done, will He?””
John 7:31
Q for Calvinist: how did they believe without the Holy Spirit dwelling in them?
"Daughter, YOUR FAITH has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering." - Mark 5:34
And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; YOUR FAITH has made you well." - Mark 10:52
"Take courage, daughter," He said, "YOUR FAITH has healed you." - Matthew 9:22
''Daughter, YOUR FAITH has made you well; go in peace." - Luke 8:48
According to Calvinism’s interpretation of Romans 8, it’s impossible for them to please God (have faith) because the Spirit didn’t dwell in them.
----
----
I hope all of that makes you begin to wonder if you have the correct understanding of Romans 8:5-9 - because, I believe scripture indicates you haven’t.
So, as for Calvinism’s second misunderstanding about that passage in Romans 8 - please consider the passage again but in the CEV translation:
“People who are ruled by their desires think only of themselves. Everyone who is ruled by the Holy Spirit thinks about spiritual things. If our minds are ruled by our desires, we will die. But if our minds are ruled by the Spirit, we will have life and peace. Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws. ***If we follow our desires, we cannot please God. *** You are no longer ruled by your desires, but by God's Spirit, who lives in you. People who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them don't belong to him. But Christ lives in you. So you are alive because God has accepted you, even though your bodies must die because of your sins.”
Romans 8:5-10 CEV
What it means is: while you are following the desires of the flesh, you can’t please God.
That’s all it means.
I can point you to a video explaining the Greek if you are interested.
Also: please think - if that passage meant what Calvinism says it means, because it’s often badly translated - it contradicts most of Romans - because Paul spends most his time stressing that salvation is through faith alone.
If Paul believed in Calvinistic regeneration, surely he should have stressed it’s got nothing to do with faith and entirely depends on whether you’re elect or not.
Why did Paul waste so much time saying every man is responsible to respond to God and have faith???
Maybe because that’s exactly what he meant.
Steve steve steve.. so if Jesus is the Word of God incarnate and power unto salvation is the hearing of the gospel… when Jesus spoke in the Spirit His words would literally bring salvation anyone who heard by necessity of His perfection and the perfection of the Word!
Why steve are you not intelligent enough to put those pieces together it is extremely obvious if you weren’t so man centered!!😂😂
You just wrote something incoherent that is not substantiated by the Bible, while showing yourself to be extremely proud and arrogant.
Which fruit is patronization?
Steve no one comes to Him unless drawn by the Father.. excellent demonstration on how to lose a debate without a need for rebuttal!
😂😂😂
At some point the debate steve takes is dishonest.😮
John 12:32 NASB
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
@@SteveGreggVideos @SteveGreggVideos Yes, paid in full. Now we see Jesus the Christ is The Resurrection. In regards to the resurrection unto life or second death: who will not be resurrected?
Yes, ALL He has drawn to Himself.
💦 🔥🗡🦁and🐑
@@SteveGreggVideos this is what came to my mind! He has drawn. Through the work of the cross. Not because of us but because of his own purpose. This word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing! This is the power of God. He has shown love in this and the message, the work shared to All will draw All......but who will come...who will accept this work as victory over death/ payment that satisfies? Those who believe!
To say that the father has to do anymore than the cross to get someone to believe is cheapening the cross.
Do you even understand the difference between Hyperbole and Metaphor or allegory?
The bible isnt hyperbolic lol wow.
There are passages that are hyperbolic I don't even think White denies this.
@@glennjohn3919 name one verse
Jeremiah 19:5 is one passage that some consider hyperbolic. Especislly those with a more classical theism view.
@@joshsimpson10Matthew 3:5-6 NKJV
[5] Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him [6] and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
@@joshsimpson10 A metaphor can be hyperbolic, the terms aren't mutually exclusive, so Psalm 14:4 that Gregg mentions in the debate is hyperbolic. Another example of biblical hyperbole, in a case where metaphor is not involved, is when God commands to completely destroy the Canaanites, the scripture states Joshua fulfills it, and yet the Canaanites are still around afterwards. Obviously if it wasn't hyperbolic the defeated tribes would not still be lingering around afterwards. It's akin to the hyperbole we use today e.g. when a football team destroys another.
White clearly won this debate
Gregg clearly won this debate.
Lol @@glennjohn3919
No White clearly hands down won the debate...
@@marcelniles342 Maybe this exchange shows nobody "clearly" won the debate?
But who did God determine to win this debate!? 😱
Mystery! 😂
Mr. Gregg's analogy of the choir violates elementary set theory (math problem). What makes the choir a choir is its constituent members. If there are no members it is not a choir. The same with the elect. The elect, the corporate body, is only such because of its members who are essentially elect otherwise they would not be numbered among the elect (corporate). It is the defining characteristic of the set. The same issue exists with the body of Christ. The body of Christ contains no members, not one single cell, that has not grown from within the body. Only new creations are found within the body of Christ and one does not place oneself within the body. There are no cancerous cells within the body of Christ.
He saying if the choir was chosen to go on a trip by the POTUS. the group was chosen by the individual members were not chosen by the POTUS, those enter the group individually by other criteria. He’s not misunderstanding that a group is made up of individuals.
@@bible4family, not the math problem. The choir is defined by its components --singers. They are not welders. A set is a defined by its components who share common characteristics. The elect (corporate - the set) can only be composed of components which are also elect otherwise there is no set of the elect. That is the elementary set theory problem of "corporate" election.
@@Saratogan
I don’t follow your logic. I think if it like citizenship. Don’t you think you have a protection with citizenship? Like Paul letting the Roman’s know that he’s a Roman citizen. Their group has some set of rights. But who can be in the group is a different question.
@@bible4family, The logic of set theory, particularly elementary set theory is not all that complicated. What makes a set a set? It is the common characteristics defined by the definition of the set in question. Citizenship is good and supports the premise. Let's make it really simple. Let's reduce the set definition to one characteristic. I'll use a union as a simple example -- The International Brotherhood of Welders -- to be a member you have to be a welder. You might also be an electrician but that does not make you a member of the welders' union. It is your welder's certification that makes you a welder and therefore eligible to be a member of the welders union. It is the necessary and sufficient condition. The very simple point is that welders must exist for there to be a welders' union. If there were no welders, there would be no welders' union. The same is true for corporate election. If there were no elect persons there would be no elect body.
@@Saratogan
Yes, and instead of a welding criteria to meet, there is a criteria of having faith. I see no problem with this.
Steve: “I THINK” “I think” “I believe” “my opinion”
💀 💀 💀