I have never pump foiled, but I recognize the action from mogul skiing. Absorbing the top of moguls, pushing down the backside is how to stay in contact with the snow for control. Foot position relative to one's waist helps control speed. Feet forward up the mogul face decreases speed while feet back increaese speed down the backside. Done right, your feet are balanced below you at the very top of and the very bottom of the mogul. Gravity being felt most at the bottom point, this being the best time to slow your speed when skiing fast. Skiing being a sport where feeling lighter is a result. The lightest feeling being powder skiing where a floating feeling is prominent. In foiling, I can see the relationship between the pump and the angle of attact (relationship of foot height over the other).
Very cool to hear about the relation to mogul skiing! I often think about the motions of skate skiing when pumping and I think the most efficient pumpers mirror the body mechanics of good skiiers with a powerful push and sustained light glide.
Good explanation: One tip I give new Pumpers is to clap your hands over your head during the unweighting phase as this forces you to lift off the board and get the muscle memory. It's a weird feeling at first
That's super interesting! Never tried but will give it a shot. Have you ever watched a nordic skiier moving at maintenance/max efficiency speed? They have a really similar arm swinging technique to help the push and glide phases.
Thanks @jbcrespo6598! The video explanations are very new thing for me - feeling rather awkward in front of the camera so really appreciate the positive feedback. Will keep working on improving delivery and production value. Lots more content planned!
Thanks! Have you ever tried a skateboard on a pump track? I've actaully become a big believer that it's a "hack" for dialing in foil pumping body mechanics without having to deal with figuring out dock starts/boat tow ups.
Great video. I watched the video about the foil position on the rail, but it's still not clear to me where to place the foil. I would tend to say that centering the foil would be best to minimize the torque, as the torque depending on the center of gravity position of the board would penalize either the ascent or descent.
Nice video, but I think the most basic and important concept is missed. When the skateboard or foil is pointed down, and you press down to generate additional force by extending your legs, the reaction force (from the pavement, or foil's lift) has a forward component that accelerates the rider. When traveling back up, we retract our legs to reduce the load and rearward reaction force that would otherwise slow us.
Appreciate your comment @dcmackintosh, what you're saying depends on the frame of reference taken though. I’m describing pumping mechanics in terms of speed relative to the path traveled. In this case the normal force from the ground is perpendicular to velocity and the acceleration is due to the vector of the increased downward force which can be resolved in the direction of travel. Similarly, the decrease in rolling resistance/drag combined with reduction in downward force along the path traveled during the unweighting phase is valid and. In my opinion, these are more intuitive ways to look at the acceleration and climb phases. It’s just as accurate to think about it in terms of straight line velocity as you've descrived - in which case the normal force from the ground could be resolved along this straight line path and would affect velocity. Doing the math in either frame of reference would ultimately lead to the same result, but in my mind it is less intuitive to explain and think about a changing ground normal force rather than a changing downward force which is why I elected to use the latter. Perhaps I’m missing something though and interested to hear if you think I am making a mistake in logic here.
@@omenfoils Interesting discussion, thank you. Yes, any frame of reference could be used, including an observer on the sun, and calculations would work out the same. Most people should understand that when they point a skateboard downhill, they accelerate due to the pull of gravity, and people that have studied any physics know that it's the horizontal (perpendicular to gravity) component of the reaction force that is pushing them forward. If we push down against the slope with a force greater than our weight, by extending our legs, we can briefly increase the forward acceleration. I think using the board, or anything other than gravity, as the frame of reference is less intuitive and adds complication, but others may disagree. When foiling, I think a rider is also more interested in how fast their cg is moving forward across the water than the instantaneous velocity of the foil (following roughly a sine wave path) through the water. Because the instantaneous velocity and path of the foil when pumping is not the same as the more constant velocity and path of the rider, it does make sense to use the foil as the frame of reference if we want to actually calculate instantaneous lift and drag. (Of course, hydrodynamic lift and drag increase with the square of velocity, unlike what we experience with bearings and wheels on a hard surface.) I still think it will be helpful for most people if we use the gravitational reference when explaining how the varying lift and drag forces are helping propel us forward across the water, though.
Likewise@@dcmackintosh always informative to get into the details! The reason I was thinking about the foil speed as a point of reference is because it is ultimately what drives how long we continue to glide vs. stall. I agree most foilers would care more about their forward velocity or let's say VMG in general, however I do think pumping (at least when connecting waves in the surf or while downwinding) is a unique situation where the top priority is to stay on foil (avoid stall) more so than hit a max VMG.
I was thinking the same thing. Something has to provide the overall horizontal thrust and its the increased horizontal (normal) reaction force on the downswing.
Hi Alan, I think riding a skateboard on a pumptrack is an excellent way to train for pump foiling. Not only is the motion similarly taxing on the right muscle groups, but it also forces your board into the correct angle during the pump cycle which will build very valuable muscle memory for when you switch over to the foil. sorry for the delay in responding! Greg
excellent! "they" say HA foils are not to be really pumped as this disturbs the coming on the foil. so rather pushing the foil forwards while pumping rather than a up and down motion. thank you for sharing!!!!!!
When getting going on a wing with light wind it is very easy to stall a high aspect foil by pumping too hard like you say! What I like to focus on instead is to unweight the board while I am pulling in on the wing, this way when I get my maximum speed it is easiest for the foil and board to lift and when my weight comes back down on the board I am pushing forward to try and glide back down and gain more speed. Usually I skip off the surface a couple times, I can use this technique (along with the right equipment) to get up in super light wind with my 5m, 60L board, and 1050cm2 foil which ends up being way more fun to ride than big heavy gear!
Great question Bewi! not in my opinion - I think the same attributes that make a great ocean board make a great lake board. I think about selecting the size of my board for the wind and sizing my foil for the waves. So if the wind strength is the same I'd ride the same board in the lake, however I'd size up my foil to deal with the slower waves. Alternatively, if there are no waves I might choose my smaller foil to practice high speed tacks and jibes. Hope this helps, happy to get more into the weeds on boards! Greg
I think I would have just been referring to avoiding trying to force the nose of the board up during the power phase of a pump like you would with a skateboard ollie. The ideal pump cylce starts with a subtle dip downwards of the nose of the board followed by a powerful pushing down with both legs. At the end of the push the front leg is unweighted first followed almost immediately by the back leg so the board and foil can glide upwards and recover the height lost in the loading phase. So the board is not completely flat, however, the angle change is subtle. It's common for beginners to "popoise" the board aggressively which is inefficient and even downright counterproductive.
@@Jonpilo-uz1yf That's a good question, I could really only speculate. The most important factor is definitely technique, with endurance, cardio, and leg power as other big contributors.
@@Jonpilo-uz1yf I guess it depends on how you define success with pumping. A smaller, faster foil will pump "further" provided you can get it up to speed and have the skill to maintain that speed with pumping. A bigger, slower foil is easier to keep up for a longer duration in time but generally takes more energy to travel the same distance. Does that answer your question?
I like the visual simplicity of your videos. Makes it easier to concentrate on the technic.
thanks @FoilPatrol!
Great explanation! Lovin your Omen boards/foils. Some magic sauce in the content and gear Omen is providing.
thanks Chaz!
I have never pump foiled, but I recognize the action from mogul skiing. Absorbing the top of moguls, pushing down the backside is how to stay in contact with the snow for control. Foot position relative to one's waist helps control speed. Feet forward up the mogul face decreases speed while feet back increaese speed down the backside. Done right, your feet are balanced below you at the very top of and the very bottom of the mogul. Gravity being felt most at the bottom point, this being the best time to slow your speed when skiing fast. Skiing being a sport where feeling lighter is a result. The lightest feeling being powder skiing where a floating feeling is prominent. In foiling, I can see the relationship between the pump and the angle of attact (relationship of foot height over the other).
Very cool to hear about the relation to mogul skiing! I often think about the motions of skate skiing when pumping and I think the most efficient pumpers mirror the body mechanics of good skiiers with a powerful push and sustained light glide.
I like your explanation better than others and looking forward to more videos.
Good explanation: One tip I give new Pumpers is to clap your hands over your head during the unweighting phase as this forces you to lift off the board and get the muscle memory. It's a weird feeling at first
That's super interesting! Never tried but will give it a shot. Have you ever watched a nordic skiier moving at maintenance/max efficiency speed? They have a really similar arm swinging technique to help the push and glide phases.
I love your Explanations! Waiting the next Video!
Thanks @jbcrespo6598! The video explanations are very new thing for me - feeling rather awkward in front of the camera so really appreciate the positive feedback. Will keep working on improving delivery and production value. Lots more content planned!
Greg you make me want to be an engineer!! Thanks for your write up's on all the micro nuances - absolutely love it and will be using it on the water 🤓
haha, thanks Kirstan :) Please let us know if you notice improvements after playing with the technique - great to have the feedback!
Thanks a lot for this great video....i learned a lot
Thanks! Have you ever tried a skateboard on a pump track? I've actaully become a big believer that it's a "hack" for dialing in foil pumping body mechanics without having to deal with figuring out dock starts/boat tow ups.
🎉❤😊 finally clicked on what I need to do, just got to do it now
Great to hear it Gavin, let me know how your tweaking goes!
i understand that so well but at 48, if i wasn't a master by the second time i fell off, i'd be too tired to try again! 🤣
haha, a good session of pumping definitely rivals any workout I've done for cardio destruction!
Great video. I watched the video about the foil position on the rail, but it's still not clear to me where to place the foil. I would tend to say that centering the foil would be best to minimize the torque, as the torque depending on the center of gravity position of the board would penalize either the ascent or descent.
Nice video, but I think the most basic and important concept is missed. When the skateboard or foil is pointed down, and you press down to generate additional force by extending your legs, the reaction force (from the pavement, or foil's lift) has a forward component that accelerates the rider. When traveling back up, we retract our legs to reduce the load and rearward reaction force that would otherwise slow us.
Appreciate your comment @dcmackintosh, what you're saying depends on the frame of reference taken though. I’m describing pumping mechanics in terms of speed relative to the path traveled. In this case the normal force from the ground is perpendicular to velocity and the acceleration is due to the vector of the increased downward force which can be resolved in the direction of travel. Similarly, the decrease in rolling resistance/drag combined with reduction in downward force along the path traveled during the unweighting phase is valid and. In my opinion, these are more intuitive ways to look at the acceleration and climb phases.
It’s just as accurate to think about it in terms of straight line velocity as you've descrived - in which case the normal force from the ground could be resolved along this straight line path and would affect velocity. Doing the math in either frame of reference would ultimately lead to the same result, but in my mind it is less intuitive to explain and think about a changing ground normal force rather than a changing downward force which is why I elected to use the latter. Perhaps I’m missing something though and interested to hear if you think I am making a mistake in logic here.
@@omenfoils Interesting discussion, thank you.
Yes, any frame of reference could be used, including an observer on the sun, and calculations would work out the same. Most people should understand that when they point a skateboard downhill, they accelerate due to the pull of gravity, and people that have studied any physics know that it's the horizontal (perpendicular to gravity) component of the reaction force that is pushing them forward. If we push down against the slope with a force greater than our weight, by extending our legs, we can briefly increase the forward acceleration. I think using the board, or anything other than gravity, as the frame of reference is less intuitive and adds complication, but others may disagree.
When foiling, I think a rider is also more interested in how fast their cg is moving forward across the water than the instantaneous velocity of the foil (following roughly a sine wave path) through the water. Because the instantaneous velocity and path of the foil when pumping is not the same as the more constant velocity and path of the rider, it does make sense to use the foil as the frame of reference if we want to actually calculate instantaneous lift and drag. (Of course, hydrodynamic lift and drag increase with the square of velocity, unlike what we experience with bearings and wheels on a hard surface.) I still think it will be helpful for most people if we use the gravitational reference when explaining how the varying lift and drag forces are helping propel us forward across the water, though.
Likewise@@dcmackintosh always informative to get into the details! The reason I was thinking about the foil speed as a point of reference is because it is ultimately what drives how long we continue to glide vs. stall. I agree most foilers would care more about their forward velocity or let's say VMG in general, however I do think pumping (at least when connecting waves in the surf or while downwinding) is a unique situation where the top priority is to stay on foil (avoid stall) more so than hit a max VMG.
I was thinking the same thing. Something has to provide the overall horizontal thrust and its the increased horizontal (normal) reaction force on the downswing.
Would you say that riding a skateboard on a pump track is a good way to train? Or is the motion too dissimilar?
Hi Alan, I think riding a skateboard on a pumptrack is an excellent way to train for pump foiling. Not only is the motion similarly taxing on the right muscle groups, but it also forces your board into the correct angle during the pump cycle which will build very valuable muscle memory for when you switch over to the foil.
sorry for the delay in responding!
Greg
excellent! "they" say HA foils are not to be really pumped as this disturbs the coming on the foil. so rather pushing the foil forwards while pumping rather than a up and down motion. thank you for sharing!!!!!!
When getting going on a wing with light wind it is very easy to stall a high aspect foil by pumping too hard like you say!
What I like to focus on instead is to unweight the board while I am pulling in on the wing, this way when I get my maximum speed it is easiest for the foil and board to lift and when my weight comes back down on the board I am pushing forward to try and glide back down and gain more speed. Usually I skip off the surface a couple times, I can use this technique (along with the right equipment) to get up in super light wind with my 5m, 60L board, and 1050cm2 foil which ends up being way more fun to ride than big heavy gear!
Is there a difference between boards for lake and boards for beach?
Great question Bewi!
not in my opinion - I think the same attributes that make a great ocean board make a great lake board.
I think about selecting the size of my board for the wind and sizing my foil for the waves. So if the wind strength is the same I'd ride the same board in the lake, however I'd size up my foil to deal with the slower waves. Alternatively, if there are no waves I might choose my smaller foil to practice high speed tacks and jibes.
Hope this helps, happy to get more into the weeds on boards!
Greg
What do you mean in "keeping the board flat"? Is it a little pump to generate speed efficiently?
I think I would have just been referring to avoiding trying to force the nose of the board up during the power phase of a pump like you would with a skateboard ollie.
The ideal pump cylce starts with a subtle dip downwards of the nose of the board followed by a powerful pushing down with both legs. At the end of the push the front leg is unweighted first followed almost immediately by the back leg so the board and foil can glide upwards and recover the height lost in the loading phase. So the board is not completely flat, however, the angle change is subtle. It's common for beginners to "popoise" the board aggressively which is inefficient and even downright counterproductive.
@@omenfoils do longer legs helps for speed?
@@Jonpilo-uz1yf That's a good question, I could really only speculate. The most important factor is definitely technique, with endurance, cardio, and leg power as other big contributors.
@@omenfoils On high-aspect foils, which is more required to pump bigger? The longer size, like a ha1180, or a smaller size, like a ha580?
@@Jonpilo-uz1yf I guess it depends on how you define success with pumping. A smaller, faster foil will pump "further" provided you can get it up to speed and have the skill to maintain that speed with pumping. A bigger, slower foil is easier to keep up for a longer duration in time but generally takes more energy to travel the same distance. Does that answer your question?
Sweet.
Excellent !
thanks, glad you like it!
Please make the track video! Im sinking over here!!!
Working on it @naniekso, send me an email I can send over some info in the meantime! greg@omenfoils.com
*PromoSM*