Hi TrainVation. Very enjoyable video. Just one thing I noticed regarding discontinuos electrification. This exists in South Wales as part of the South Wales Valleys upgrade (Part of the South Wales Metro project) and this is already in Operation with the class 756 Staedler flirts running and later this year the new Stadler 398 tram trains which will also run on battery mode between the unpowered sections. These are tri mode for the 756s (Electric, Diesel and Battery) and Bi mode for the 398s (Electric and Battery). Hope that clarifys that 🙂. Keep up the good work and interesting videos.
Really wish devolution came to regions south of the border. Scotland's TDS and rolling electrification are quite literally miles better than comparable regions like my native Yorkshire. Great work.
Looking forward if it ever comes to fruition as I live in the region and currently regularly use the them to commute. I had back office experience working on the Edinburgh Glasgow Improvements Programme
Scotrail is doing a great job with the rollout of electrification. As you may be aware the Baden Wittenberg Government Report showed that full electrification is 30% to 80% is cheaper than bi-modes and tri-modes over 30 years on most routes.😅 If the Forth Bridge had been constructed now by accountants, instead of engineers, it is likely have been a wooden structure and it would not be standing now.
As of now they've currently Started working through the night between the Gyle & Dalmeny with the last Edinburgh services of the day being Diverted Via the Winchburgh cord and Reversing at Dalmeny with the last service being the Perth having an arrival of 01.00 back at Waverley
What we can tell from some clips in in this very useful film shows that the planned Fife electrification is to install the Network Rail / Furrer & Frey 'Series 1' type of OHLE. This is expensive and over-engineered, with large steel gantries, no headspan construction, and taller catenary masts for doubl;e-track linesthan we used to have. The previous British OHLE design was British Rail's 'Mk 3b' type which has been used to electrifiy most lines in Britain. It was developed for the Weaver Junction - Glasgow wiring (1970-73 )and was then used or the ECML and East Anglia electrifications (many hundreds of miles). In Scotland in the last 12 years of British Rail Mk 3b OHLE was used very effectively and at an affordable cost for the 'Ayrline' work - Paisley to Ayr and Largs, undertaken 1983-87; on the ECML (1986-91); and for Carstairs to Waverley (1991). The recent Scottish electrification (Edinburgh-Glasgow Queen St via Falkirk and to Dunblane and Alloa, the Shotts line, and currently Glasgow-Barrhead and East Kibridge) all use the expensive and intrusive Series 1 OHLE system. ScotRail should insist on returning to the MK 3b OHLE design which will both cut costs and reduce intrusion. Mk3b OHLE being much lower cost also enables the technically complicate concept of 'discontinuous electrification' to be ditched.
Thank you for your input, it's really interesting to hear. I'll be honest I thought the "Series 1" OHLE you were talking about was called Series 2". But nonetheless it would help, and cost-cutting is what they need most here!
@trainviation I think you are correct that it is called 'Series 2' now; but it is essentially the same heavily-engineered and over-costly form of OHLE which Network Rail started to install in 2010-11 on the Great Western electrification. The earlier system, BR Mk 3b, was used for some of the Manchester-Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows electrification which was got under way in 2010, and as recently as 2016-17 for the Norton Bridge realignment and flyover north of Stafford on the WCML. (You can see that in driver's view films made on northbound freight trains using WCML Stafford-Crewe 'slow' line.) The current Network Rail OHLE design has origins in Switzerland, as it comes from the consulting engineers Furrer + Frey who are based in Berne. Swiss OHLE tends to be rather heavyweight, based on 100 years of tradition. Thank goodness that the ECML from Newcastle to Edinburgh and the Ayr & Largs lines were electrified in the 1980s using the much less intrusive, and less expensive, BR Mk 3b OHLE.
@ I'm not an expert at all, but I was under the impression that the ECML OHLE had proved susceptible to strong cross winds in some places. And I'd have thought that although span wire construction is undoubtedly cheaper and less obtrusive, any damage is likely to affect all the tracks, not just one. I know the Liverpool Street to Shenfield electrification was described as "the galvanized iron tunnel", but it's certainly proved very robust.
I just don't understand why the ScotRail is installing obsolete heavy weight cantilevers and castilated beams. The Norwegian and Swedish railways have robust lightweight cantilever designs and arguably the weather is more severe than in Scotland.
Fife has had a reputation for being overcrowded for decades now. The use of loco-hauled trains a few years ago did help, but they stopped after EGIP and introduction of Inter7city HSTs released more diesel units to run elsewhere. I believe the biggest barrier to electrifying Fife is the tunnel north of the Bridge.
Scot Rail is doing a great job in rolling out electrification. Implementation could be further accelerated by obtaining surplus redundant EMU's from the South of England to allocate more resources to Overhead Line Equipment.
Interesting video and there are already some suitable new trains with battery/electric/diesel capability running in Wales ! Transport for Wales are now running some of their new Class 756 tri-mode units, which would be ideal for the discontinuous electrification proposed for the Fife Circle route. Let’s hope some speedy progress is made with this scheme.
Ah yes, I’ve seen the South Wales Metro units and they seem quite capable for the line! Would be interesting to see what they would look like in ScotRail livery. Fingers crossed it happens soon. 🤞
As an EV driver, I certainly understand the benefits of battery electric transportation. Recently a player in the bus industry called Ember expanded their battery electric intercity service up to Aberdeen from Edinburgh. I’m just thinking: If a bus can do it, with all the rolling inefficiencies of rubber tyres, why can’t a train do it? It would enable overhead electrification to be a lot more easily implemented, especially around short sections of bridges and tunnels where engineering constraints really do make a full upgrade disproportionately expensive. But as others have said: The railways are a notoriously conservative industry. Projects are hugely expensive and innovations trickle through far too slowly. Sadly this state of affairs will not change.
Thanks for this update. Personally, I'm slightly sceptical about this idea of discontinuous electrification. It may be OK for short branch line shuttle services, but for general use it seems that all the rolling stock will have to be heavier, more complex, more expensive and less reliable than straight electrics. And I think it would be less suitable for heavy freight locos. But no doubt time will tell! Do you know whether there are inherent problems with electrifying across the Forth Bridge?
Yes sorry I forgot to mention this in the video. As the forth bridge is a class A UNESCO world heritage structure, they most likely will not be able to modify or adapt the bridge with OHLE, atleast not without deadly strict guidelines.
@trainviation There have been all sorts of claims that somehow the Forth Bridge (Listed GradeA) can't be electrified for some unexplained technical reasons, generally to do with the current return and earthing.. Listing the bridge as a historic structure doesn't prevent electrification. It means that there must be extra care in design and that the OHLE must be the best design for the bridge. The Royal Border Bridge (Grade I - English equivalent of Grade A) has OHLE across it. A great effort on design was made and the (now regrettably abolished) Royal Fine Arts Commissions (both the English and the Scottish ones) did a lot of work. The result shows how effective this was: watch any drone film of an LNER train crossing the Tweed. The same applies to the Durham viaduct which is a landmark in that historic city. The two now-on-RUclips films on ECML electrification and narrated by the TV reporter Martin Young, are worth watching. The first, 1989 film showing work to raise the main footbridge in Waverley Station (Grade A) by just 6 inches to enable OHLE to be fitted, and the work in the Calton Hill tunnels. See that film at ruclips.net/video/9wJejg8NxIM/видео.html. The longer film completed in 1992 shows the RFAC inspecting Durham viaduct and the Grade I listed Newcastle Central Station. ruclips.net/video/itmm98UVeVE/видео.html
As the Fife Circle Lines and East Kilbride line are to become electrified. Why not electrify the Glasgow South Western line from Barrhead to Kilmarnock and Dumfries and ScotRail to order more new electric/EBMU or Bi-mode trains.
Bi-mode (Diesel / overhead) already run on this route as part of the London - Aberdeen service but I don't know if they can change mode unerway as they don't stop at Dalgety Bay, Thornton Junction or Ladybank.
Shocking really (pun not intended!) that the Fife Circle isn’t already fully electrified. But sadly it’s par for the course given the UK’s painfully slow electrification (compared to other European countries in particular). I’m not convinced that battery/electric trains are the answer. They will be heavier, less efficient, more expensive and more complex to operate than electric trains running under wires.
Precisely! It seems the government at the helm of all of this, seems to be too focused on everything else to appropriately fund rail projects, especially up north. Heck, we still have Semaphore signals somewhere between Lady and Dundee I’m pretty sure. (I could be very wrong.)
Scotland has been streets ahead of the rest of the UK for electrification, we are lucky at the progress been made so far with pretty much the entirety of high patronage lines completely electrified and the semi busy lines starting to get attention now….
Not sure the disjointed approach is really going to work but IF they get the BEMU's then it might be something. The route around Burntisland has always seemed like a fudge. (where I was born). The line from Aberdour makes a fairly sharp right turn, through a cutting (which must have taken some work), across a lowish viaduct at the former shipyard to get around to the station. Since the station came before this bit of the line I can sort of see why they did it but it IMHO, it would have been better just to draw a straight line and join up with tracks again as the line curved around the bay to Kinghorn. That would make no sense to do now (too many houses) and even a direct route across the sea and over the old shipyard would seem rather unfeasible too. So its a bit of line with a rather slow S bend. Still shouldnt stop it from being electrified though. So ...most of the "Fife Circle" isnt being electrified. Not the bridge, not to Dunfermline, No plans to electrify to Perth or Dundee. So all things considered, this is a half hearted attempt to do very little and it doesnt join up. I shall watch with interest to see what, when and how it progresses. Thanks for the update.
Interesting comment, and unfortunately the track was layed in such a way. They have said previously they do plan to FULLY electrify the line between Edinburgh and Dundee in the next decade or two, but we’ll just see how that turns out. Sadly, it’s a little messy for the line to be electrified now, and not have the trains to take advantage of it.
385s are only EMUs, but if Hitachi follow through with their plans, they did say they were going to add batteries to them, so they may as well in the future.
Oh Did I Forgot About The Borders Railway Extension If Made This Revival Long Journey From Edinburgh To Carlisle I Decide That The 385's Won't Not Run On The Borders Railway Instead New Type Of Styled Trains To Run On That The Railway Line Is Almost 10 Years Old With The Anniesland To Maryhill Line Is Almost 20 Years Old That Needs To Be Electrified As Well.
Maryhill is a no-brainer. It currently uses Class 158s, which are more suited to cross-country trains than inner-city commuter service. Wire it up and put a Class 318 on it!
I feel like using batteries in trains is a bit of a grift to avoid actual infrastructure investment, and batteries should be saved for where they are actually somewhat necessary like cars and trucks, busses, trams, and trains should use wires since they operate on a fixed route
Hi TrainVation. Very enjoyable video.
Just one thing I noticed regarding discontinuos electrification.
This exists in South Wales as part of the South Wales Valleys upgrade (Part of the South Wales Metro project) and this is already in Operation with the class 756 Staedler flirts running and later this year the new Stadler 398 tram trains which will also run on battery mode between the unpowered sections.
These are tri mode for the 756s (Electric, Diesel and Battery) and Bi mode for the 398s (Electric and Battery).
Hope that clarifys that 🙂.
Keep up the good work and interesting videos.
Really wish devolution came to regions south of the border. Scotland's TDS and rolling electrification are quite literally miles better than comparable regions like my native Yorkshire. Great work.
Looking forward if it ever comes to fruition as I live in the region and currently regularly use the them to commute.
I had back office experience working on the Edinburgh Glasgow Improvements Programme
Didn't know about this project but I'm glad something is being done. Here's hoping it continues and isn't abandoned or cut back.
www.transport.gov.scot/publication/rail-services-decarbonisation-action-plan/
I see huge potential in your channel, keep the video quality up and I see you growing big in no time
Thank you mate, really appreciate it!
Scotrail is doing a great job with the rollout of electrification.
As you may be aware the Baden Wittenberg Government Report showed that full electrification is 30% to 80% is cheaper than bi-modes and tri-modes over 30 years on most routes.😅
If the Forth Bridge had been constructed now by accountants, instead of engineers, it is likely have been a wooden structure and it would not be standing now.
As of now they've currently Started working through the night between the Gyle & Dalmeny with the last Edinburgh services of the day being Diverted Via the Winchburgh cord and Reversing at Dalmeny with the last service being the Perth having an arrival of 01.00 back at Waverley
What we can tell from some clips in in this very useful film shows that the planned Fife electrification is to install the Network Rail / Furrer & Frey 'Series 1' type of OHLE. This is expensive and over-engineered, with large steel gantries, no headspan construction, and taller catenary masts for doubl;e-track linesthan we used to have. The previous British OHLE design was British Rail's 'Mk 3b' type which has been used to electrifiy most lines in Britain. It was developed for the Weaver Junction - Glasgow wiring (1970-73 )and was then used or the ECML and East Anglia electrifications (many hundreds of miles). In Scotland in the last 12 years of British Rail Mk 3b OHLE was used very effectively and at an affordable cost for the 'Ayrline' work - Paisley to Ayr and Largs, undertaken 1983-87; on the ECML (1986-91); and for Carstairs to Waverley (1991). The recent Scottish electrification (Edinburgh-Glasgow Queen St via Falkirk and to Dunblane and Alloa, the Shotts line, and currently Glasgow-Barrhead and East Kibridge) all use the expensive and intrusive Series 1 OHLE system. ScotRail should insist on returning to the MK 3b OHLE design which will both cut costs and reduce intrusion. Mk3b OHLE being much lower cost also enables the technically complicate concept of 'discontinuous electrification' to be ditched.
Thank you for your input, it's really interesting to hear. I'll be honest I thought the "Series 1" OHLE you were talking about was called Series 2". But nonetheless it would help, and cost-cutting is what they need most here!
@trainviation I think you are correct that it is called 'Series 2' now; but it is essentially the same heavily-engineered and over-costly form of OHLE which Network Rail started to install in 2010-11 on the Great Western electrification. The earlier system, BR Mk 3b, was used for some of the Manchester-Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows electrification which was got under way in 2010, and as recently as 2016-17 for the Norton Bridge realignment and flyover north of Stafford on the WCML. (You can see that in driver's view films made on northbound freight trains using WCML Stafford-Crewe 'slow' line.) The current Network Rail OHLE design has origins in Switzerland, as it comes from the consulting engineers Furrer + Frey who are based in Berne. Swiss OHLE tends to be rather heavyweight, based on 100 years of tradition.
Thank goodness that the ECML from Newcastle to Edinburgh and the Ayr & Largs lines were electrified in the 1980s using the much less intrusive, and less expensive, BR Mk 3b OHLE.
@ I'm not an expert at all, but I was under the impression that the ECML OHLE had proved susceptible to strong cross winds in some places. And I'd have thought that although span wire construction is undoubtedly cheaper and less obtrusive, any damage is likely to affect all the tracks, not just one. I know the Liverpool Street to Shenfield electrification was described as "the galvanized iron tunnel", but it's certainly proved very robust.
I just don't understand why the ScotRail is installing obsolete heavy weight cantilevers and castilated beams.
The Norwegian and Swedish railways have robust lightweight cantilever designs and arguably the weather is more severe than in Scotland.
Problem is a lot of this is playing catch up 20/30/40/50 years later.
It's absolutely mental that they built Edinburgh Gateway and didn't run an electric line to it...
Excellent video mate! Very informative and interesting to watch, keep it up 👍
Cheers, really appreciate it!
Fife has had a reputation for being overcrowded for decades now. The use of loco-hauled trains a few years ago did help, but they stopped after EGIP and introduction of Inter7city HSTs released more diesel units to run elsewhere.
I believe the biggest barrier to electrifying Fife is the tunnel north of the Bridge.
Scot Rail is doing a great job in rolling out electrification. Implementation could be further accelerated by obtaining surplus redundant EMU's from the South of England to allocate more resources to Overhead Line Equipment.
Scotrail already made use of Class 325 "happy trains" while they were waiting for snagging problems with the 385s to be ironed out.
Interesting video and there are already some suitable new trains with battery/electric/diesel capability running in Wales ! Transport for Wales are now running some of their new Class 756 tri-mode units, which would be ideal for the discontinuous electrification proposed for the Fife Circle route. Let’s hope some speedy progress is made with this scheme.
Ah yes, I’ve seen the South Wales Metro units and they seem quite capable for the line! Would be interesting to see what they would look like in ScotRail livery. Fingers crossed it happens soon. 🤞
Fife is years behind and is probably the only place in UK without rail electrification
😂
The whole of the Leven line has had the infrastructure put in place for the overhead pylons. It’s daft that they haven’t mentioned it…
5:11 I see a grey metrocab taxi on the bottom left one of my favorite taxis
Switzerland is saving megga bucks with 100% electrification and green hydro energy 💚
As an EV driver, I certainly understand the benefits of battery electric transportation. Recently a player in the bus industry called Ember expanded their battery electric intercity service up to Aberdeen from Edinburgh.
I’m just thinking: If a bus can do it, with all the rolling inefficiencies of rubber tyres, why can’t a train do it? It would enable overhead electrification to be a lot more easily implemented, especially around short sections of bridges and tunnels where engineering constraints really do make a full upgrade disproportionately expensive.
But as others have said: The railways are a notoriously conservative industry. Projects are hugely expensive and innovations trickle through far too slowly. Sadly this state of affairs will not change.
Thanks for this update. Personally, I'm slightly sceptical about this idea of discontinuous electrification. It may be OK for short branch line shuttle services, but for general use it seems that all the rolling stock will have to be heavier, more complex, more expensive and less reliable than straight electrics. And I think it would be less suitable for heavy freight locos. But no doubt time will tell! Do you know whether there are inherent problems with electrifying across the Forth Bridge?
Yes sorry I forgot to mention this in the video. As the forth bridge is a class A UNESCO world heritage structure, they most likely will not be able to modify or adapt the bridge with OHLE, atleast not without deadly strict guidelines.
@trainviation There have been all sorts of claims that somehow the Forth Bridge (Listed GradeA) can't be electrified for some unexplained technical reasons, generally to do with the current return and earthing.. Listing the bridge as a historic structure doesn't prevent electrification. It means that there must be extra care in design and that the OHLE must be the best design for the bridge. The Royal Border Bridge (Grade I - English equivalent of Grade A) has OHLE across it. A great effort on design was made and the (now regrettably abolished) Royal Fine Arts Commissions (both the English and the Scottish ones) did a lot of work. The result shows how effective this was: watch any drone film of an LNER train crossing the Tweed. The same applies to the Durham viaduct which is a landmark in that historic city.
The two now-on-RUclips films on ECML electrification and narrated by the TV reporter Martin Young, are worth watching. The first, 1989 film showing work to raise the main footbridge in Waverley Station (Grade A) by just 6 inches to enable OHLE to be fitted, and the work in the Calton Hill tunnels. See that film at ruclips.net/video/9wJejg8NxIM/видео.html. The longer film completed in 1992 shows the RFAC inspecting Durham viaduct and the Grade I listed Newcastle Central Station. ruclips.net/video/itmm98UVeVE/видео.html
As the Fife Circle Lines and East Kilbride line are to become electrified. Why not electrify the Glasgow South Western line from Barrhead to Kilmarnock and Dumfries and ScotRail to order more new electric/EBMU or Bi-mode trains.
Bi-mode (Diesel / overhead) already run on this route as part of the London - Aberdeen service but I don't know if they can change mode unerway as they don't stop at Dalgety Bay, Thornton Junction or Ladybank.
They change mode at haymarket
Shocking really (pun not intended!) that the Fife Circle isn’t already fully electrified. But sadly it’s par for the course given the UK’s painfully slow electrification (compared to other European countries in particular). I’m not convinced that battery/electric trains are the answer. They will be heavier, less efficient, more expensive and more complex to operate than electric trains running under wires.
Precisely! It seems the government at the helm of all of this, seems to be too focused on everything else to appropriately fund rail projects, especially up north. Heck, we still have Semaphore signals somewhere between Lady and Dundee I’m pretty sure. (I could be very wrong.)
Scotland has been streets ahead of the rest of the UK for electrification, we are lucky at the progress been made so far with pretty much the entirety of high patronage lines completely electrified and the semi busy lines starting to get attention now….
Battery EMUs were the solution for Headbolt Lane on Merseyrail because Network Rail refuse to extend 3rd rail electrification.
Not sure the disjointed approach is really going to work but IF they get the BEMU's then it might be something.
The route around Burntisland has always seemed like a fudge. (where I was born). The line from Aberdour makes a fairly sharp right turn, through a cutting (which must have taken some work), across a lowish viaduct at the former shipyard to get around to the station. Since the station came before this bit of the line I can sort of see why they did it but it IMHO, it would have been better just to draw a straight line and join up with tracks again as the line curved around the bay to Kinghorn. That would make no sense to do now (too many houses) and even a direct route across the sea and over the old shipyard would seem rather unfeasible too. So its a bit of line with a rather slow S bend. Still shouldnt stop it from being electrified though.
So ...most of the "Fife Circle" isnt being electrified. Not the bridge, not to Dunfermline, No plans to electrify to Perth or Dundee. So all things considered, this is a half hearted attempt to do very little and it doesnt join up.
I shall watch with interest to see what, when and how it progresses. Thanks for the update.
Interesting comment, and unfortunately the track was layed in such a way. They have said previously they do plan to FULLY electrify the line between Edinburgh and Dundee in the next decade or two, but we’ll just see how that turns out. Sadly, it’s a little messy for the line to be electrified now, and not have the trains to take advantage of it.
Gonna miss the 170 turbostars
🤓☝️
Do your English work…
we could use battery/overhead multiple units
Hitachi are testing battery 800's currently. Maybe we will see battery 385's
I was considering this. I may make a follow up video in the future if anything else come out.
@trainviation They seem to be making rapid progress now. Maybe late 2025?
Hoping so, will be a cool follow up.
Green light. I’m ready to go oh oh oh oh
Why aren’t they using 385s on fife or will they eventually?
385s are only EMUs, but if Hitachi follow through with their plans, they did say they were going to add batteries to them, so they may as well in the future.
Ooh ok
Oh Did I Forgot About The Borders Railway Extension If Made This Revival Long Journey From Edinburgh To Carlisle I Decide That The 385's Won't Not Run On The Borders Railway Instead New Type Of Styled Trains To Run On That The Railway Line Is Almost 10 Years Old With The Anniesland To Maryhill Line Is Almost 20 Years Old That Needs To Be Electrified As Well.
Maryhill is a no-brainer. It currently uses Class 158s, which are more suited to cross-country trains than inner-city commuter service. Wire it up and put a Class 318 on it!
Man it must be nice living in a country where the government actually bothers electrifying railroads.
I’ll be dead honest, it’s not that much better. But at least it’s happening.
I feel like using batteries in trains is a bit of a grift to avoid actual infrastructure investment, and batteries should be saved for where they are actually somewhat necessary like cars and trucks, busses, trams, and trains should use wires since they operate on a fixed route
If the f---ing trains have enough seats and can run on time at least 90% of the time, then I'm good.