The Phoenicians: The Mysterious Masters of The Ancient Seas | The Birth of Carthage
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- Опубликовано: 1 июн 2024
- “Carthago delenda est.”
Carthage must be destroyed: this was the rallying cry of Cato the Elder, the senator endlessly pushing for war against Rome’s sworn enemy, Carthage. But what are the origins of this supposedly decadent and sinister city, and did the Carthaginians really sacrifice their children? Starting as a crafty, seafaring people called the Phoenicians, a mighty mercantile civilisation emerged, who would eventually come to be known as the Carthaginians. But who were the Phoenicians, and why are they so mysterious? From the Bible, the Iliad and the Odyssey, to Herodotus’ account of the Persian Wars, and the conquests of Alexander the Great, their shadow haunts Antiquity…
Join Tom and Dominic as they investigate the Phoenicians, the first masters of the Mediterranean. Pioneers of seafaring, craftsmanship and writing, these were the people who gave birth to Rome’s most feared enemy, Carthage. Myths, legends, child-sacrifice, and the rise and fall of civilisations abound.
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Just a reminder; less than five hundred years ago no one knew little to anything about anything a thousand years before then. What we know now comes from scraping together bits of information here there and anywhere clues are given up, and then spending years of time deciphering, interpreting, reinterpreting and concluding and then re-concluding. The bottom line here is that this is still an ongoing process and whose to say what the "conclusions" are a generation from now.
Well I do think we knew some things , it was just scattered and far less sourced
Great that you’re doing these on RUclips too these days. Nice to see you both in person, so to speak.
My mother comes from a small village in the southern Peloponnese called Finiki (Φοινίκη) named in honour of the ancient Phoenicians. On another note, the mask of Agamemnon was discovered in the same region and the palace of Nestor of the Mycenaean civilisation is about a 45 minutes drive…. Amazing things to see! Thanks for these awesome podcasts!
Great show, gentleman. Tyre also merited much space in the old Biblical prophets. Isaiah 23 and Ezekiel 26-28 concerning the fall and judgement of Tyre are interesting reads.
Great stuff - thanks!
Awesome. Well done.
love their bookshelves
Great work! I've studied about everything there is and you've covered it all in an hour. Brilliant
Long time listener - first time posting (I think) - from that sinister and freakish offshoot of Great Britain - Thank you for all the excellent work.
Which evil and sinister offshoot are you commenting from?
Perfidious Albion, constantly stirring up trouble
I wouldn't be surprised if Carthage did sacrifice children, but I also wouldn't necessarily state that Roman sources are necessarily the most trustworthy or unbiased. Especially Romans that always liked to claim that they didn't practice human sacrifice while ignoring their own routine ritualistic murders of captured enemies at the end of their triumphal parades to the gods, which were essentially human sacrifices in all but name.
The Romans were not the only ones who said the Phoenicians were sacrificing children. The Greeks and Jews said so too.
Killing an enemy combatant and sacrificing innocent children are so very different. But you're out to slander. At least you didn't say Carthage and Hannibal were black people, so you're somewhat educated. I'll guess you're a liberal/leftist. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.
Evidence has been found in Carthage of child sacrifice, tophets, human remains (all children), etc. The Romans weren’t lying
THANK GOD WE WOULD NEVER BE DOING THAT TODAY🎉😂
@@joanhuffman2166 and the Carthaginians too did too in their own inscriptions, as Tom points out. And perhaps we should believe them!
BEER AND SANDWICHES FOR THE MASSES!!! COME ON, LADS WE'RE BUSTING!!
I love these!
Love this. What evidence there is appears to support the contention that the Carthaginians did indeed, probably in dark and dire times, sacrifice children. For an absolutely ripping depiction of this read Flaubert's Salammbo possibly the greatest historical novel out there. Cheers!
The Phoenician alphabet providing the basis for every other alphabet but not having any extant texts of its own seems very on-brand for Phoenicia.
The Romans engaged in a campaign of destruction, burning and salting the land, decimating populations, enslaving survivors, and eradicating scriptures, even looting mosaics, in retaliation for Hannibal's actions. At the Bardo Museum, remnants of Phoenician culture, including scriptures and artifacts, endure. Tunisian linguists specializing in the Phoenician language contribute to preserving this heritage. It was a brutal cultural eradication.
Phoenician limited hangout?
@@purrrpl4711 Carthage was not all of Phoenicia.
@hamwithcheese586 I think of Carthage as a powerful reduction of their pheonician past. Kind of like the early 20th century USA is a reduction of its European roots.
@@gerritpeacock8949 There were too many fresh ingredients going into the melting pot for the American stew to have become a reduction by the early 20th century. But several of my great grandparents immigrated from Europe and helped settle some of the last open areas of the Great Plains and West during that time. I experienced first hand the diversity and tension between the 2nd generation Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Germans, and Irish populations, and the low key conflicts between the Catholics and Protestants. Add in the native population and it was a truly rich area to live. Of course my rural upbringing would be much different from what children in New York or Boston or Chicago would experience at the same time. And Appalachia seems like a foreign country all together. America is too vast and diverse to be a “reduction.”
I could make the same argument for Europe.
delightful
I need to head to Spotify but should tell you I explored the ruins of Carthage all alone on a stopover on the way to Jeddah around 1995. Bucket list moment 👍.
Where the HELL are the beer and sandwiches!? I thought we were getting another 1970’s video. We left on a cliff hanger. GET ON IT!
Due to a technical failure, we sadly don't have video for Part 3 and 4 of the 1974 series, but you can listen to them on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts! Please find links to the episodes on Spotify below:
Part 3: open.spotify.com/episode/5iInpqs72CLQ72OqKvbHjP?si=AweH6pNcSY-AuuU2QzQmIQ
Part 4: open.spotify.com/episode/7rNRSC7IYI2L2YyGH9sXwk?si=5C3bFMQNT1Cz-Rw3q9UvjA
Thank you!!!
@@restishistorypodoh wow what awesome service guys… great to see the team reading their fans comments!
Was thinking exactly the same.
As a Lebanese American, Tom is crushing my fantasies
Can u guys do one about the Barbary slave trade and Thomas Pellow?
Very good, thank you. Eutruscan relationship?
In Victorian Britain a "Jehu" was the nickname of carriage drivers.
This is absolutely. A party! Thank you Tom for your enumerating of these historical touchpoints. Secularism needs to stand on their analytical truths to create am anchor for those welcome and willing to understand and internalize ('Grok' for the older) the reality of our world and personally confront that reality. God bless you!
So there are lots of reasons to be skeptical of the claims made about Solomon as well as the Sea Peoples
Dr Heath Derell argues that "Molech" was not a god but a method of sacrifice.
Wasn’t this settled? I remember about 20-25 years ago this being argued about and it seemed to me that they certainly did. But always open to more peer reviewed research.
The Phoenicians are still trying to cover up their sins...
@squaeman_2644
They don't want you to realize that they just restart every time they are exposed. Move to a new area and start again, all while claiming that what they do is a "conspiracy theory."
They are terrified of the public becoming aware.
Child sacrifice has been confirmed through archaeological and scientific investigation, at least according to this mini-doc, which I found persuasive: ruclips.net/video/lZsSB9riza8/видео.html
@@squaeman_2644romans have to answer for their genocide then?
Yes.
Hi is their any chance of having a Tamil,indus valley or Dravidian video?
MOLOCH! [From 'Metropolis']
While you're grouping the coastal city states as Canaanites, you might as well include the Israelites too since the archaeology suggests the Israelites shared Canaanite cultural practices (including hinotheism) LONG past the time the Bible suggests Israel had gone fully monotheistic.
Tom would you be willing to surmise why the romans did not move east into Germany, Poland or into the lands on the shores of Dniepr. Apart from the famous cries from Augustus for his lost legions. Famously Hadrian’s set the boundaries on the rivers but the Romans always seem eating to go east into Parthia. Would the wild lands of the north provides good source of timber, slaves etc with less hassle?
The east was far richer than the northern wastes. Wealth equals power and so the rivalry was inevitable
@@waikukujk Agree Wealth equals Power but Crassus spent huge sums and died at the hands of Parthians with the loss of legions. Meaning high risk with high probability of failure. Others follow later. Caesar went to the wastes of Gaul and gained prestige, wealth, territory for his veterans (after awhile). True it was not the spoils of the temple in Jerusalem like for Vespasian but Caesar got where he wanted to be. True that Rome was traumatised by the Cisalpine Gauls sacking her so everyone was happy. Also in the east there are lot of troublesome state clients to handle. The north are regarded inferior so more freedom but the opportunity to bring way of life. For an organisation that grew through spoils, easier pickings can be argued. Although the Romans also got trunced by the Batavians.. I think we understand little how much they new through trade. We also underestimate the gradual decline due to civil war. I find it interesting that both Parthia and Rome always have the same limits.
Afterall the Greek and Romans had some limited trade with Crimea and the north of the Black Sea. So they must be able to work out what goes on.
I cant beleive im only finding these videos now. Did they mention these video versions on the podcast? Why didnt youtube recommend them to me instead of all the fricken spiderman stuff.
I think script-wise Canaanites and Phoenicians are the same people.
Yeah Phoenicians is just their Greek name
DNA tests were carried out on Cananean skeletons in Lebanon. The results are that they are 97% the same as current Lebanese
Also the sea people probably in my opinion
How can one tell if the children died because they were sacrificed vs. died from childhood diseases? Just how many children are alleged to have been sacrificed in these rituals? This notion goes so against the grain of evolution that I'm having trouble believing it was ever really practiced as a regular cultural practice.
The other ancients agreed... those damn canaanites killed children.
Yes
Great as always but why the dimly lit rooms?
Energy rationing over there that microphone alone is half a weeks worth of electricity tickets
I've no idea;
let's have a look at your room.
Why not?
@@TheAnadromist Because It cost half a weeks worth of electricity tickets
They're in the bunker.
At base all religions are absolutely bonkers.
At base, all human ideologies are absolutely bonkers.
@thadtuiol1717 Really? I don't think humanism is bonkers. But yeah, if you put the word religious or political in front of the word ideology the four horsemen of the apocalypse aren't far behind.
Lord of the furnace? Hmmm. Being metallurgical people, could it be also read as 'Lord of the Forge'?
👶🏼☛🔥💪🏽🗿the Biblical Prophets says they did...Pagan Romans said they did...and archeological evidence says they did...and predictably... some postmoderne skeptics say they didn't...
Well, they told me they did in a University history class. This is one reason it seems like that the Romans were so ruthless with them.
No reason why they couldnt have reached Cornwall, if they (mostly accepted) made it down the west coast of Africa. There is evidence of the 'Phoenicians' in the tidal Guadiana River area of Portugal/Spain source of many mines and Cornwall/Britain was also known in antiquity for its ore and resources.
What about the Etruscans?
Some scholars have shown how Latin and Etruscan connections.
I tend to think we call the Etruscans, the Phoenicians.
Much work is being done to establish a Hittite core, before then
Yes they did. No question.
well we know they had a temple dedicated to Baal. Kind of goes with the territory
.... Yes, they had many 'Temples' to their 'Kings'
Ba'al is a nonspecific title, equating roughly to, Lord/Duke
Every great civilisation has at least two rounds to go totally down in History.
Well Carthage is coming back and Rome needs to take notice.... Hannibal is growing from a weakling boy to a revengeful and hardened warrior....chanaani sunt.
So if Tyre sent ships to fight against the Greeks in the Persian war it would explain why Alexander put so much effort into capturing it. Also it was probably still extremely wealthy and Alexander had little problem with that. Also Alexander loved a fight and Tyre's capture was a struggle for certain.
Tyre didn't just refuse to pay tribute, they mocked Alexander, thinking the island was impregnable. Many evacuated to Carthage when the Macedonians built a mole.
The word "Molech" is related to "Melek," the word for king in Hebrew. Not an odd name for a god.
One wonders whether the Carthaginian infanticide was a permutation of the selection of weak children aa practiced by the Spartans? In a time of high infant mortality, such a willful sacrifice might seem even as pragmatic, as horrid as it is to our own sensibilities.
They were a Phoenician colony. It was a demonic sacrifice that goes back to the Levant and mentioned in the Bible. Part of their culture
Only the ones who wouldn't eat their greens.
6:30 the origin story
Before the arrival of Islam, pagans had hundreds of beliefs and deities. One of them was to bury his first daughter alive. In Europe also there is evidence of human sacrifices, as in Switzerland, on a hill of Mormont , tribes made wells where they threw precious goods. The blacksmith's tools, the warrior's weapons........ but there were also baby skeletons. They made offerings in this sacred hill.
21:57 No. It was hatred. Read Bel and the Dragon.
If Carthaginians were religious outcasts from Tyre, then why did Tyre refuse to aid in war against Carthage and refer to Carthaginians as their children?
Romans sacrificed people as well. Cato says this, providing 7 different examples for the same
Yes they did.
I hope the Histocrat guys know this is how I am going to image they look from now on.
Abraham and Isaac won out then.
Why wouldn't "Tyriesh" (not sure of spelling) be situated in Africa? The merchandise described sounds very African to me.
For the avoidance of doubt, it wasn't necessarily the Carthaginians but it was almost certainly 21st century TORIES!!!!
Given that infant mortality rates were probably quite high in 900 BC, could the 'sacrifices' have rather been offerings of infants who did not survive child birth or early childhood? The parents asking Baal Hmm to provide them with a healthy child? With perilous population growth, it does seem counter-intuitive to sacrifice the demographic future. If sacrifice was necessary, would it make more sense to burn the old and useless?
Nobody in the middle east offered sacrifices from the refuse pile. They brought their first fruit, their first born, not the weak and old.
If the children died a regular death, they would be interned in a regular cemetary, with other people of varied ages. But this is not the case. Only infants are found, burned.
Shill harder.
@@SuperCulverin… why is it shilling for a layman to present an alternate theory?
@@theycallmefilipCarthage isn't the middle east it's the North Africa
@@PoniesNSunshine I'm talking about Tyre, Sidon and Canaan, Carthage's roots. I think you already know that, but you enjoy being pedantic.
I don't know but Maggie and Ronald Reagan liked 5o.
We know they did.
27:26 sounds like the excuse a bad husband gave to his wife as to why he went to the beach with a daughter and came home without one ...."no honestly dear i saw he she got on a bull....."
Stop it. Look at the coin witj Hannibal's face on it. Cathagininans looked the way many refuse to accept.
solomon is suleiman, hiram’s tyre is not in lebanon.. look more west
Tin from Cornwall may be more likely than suggested, see:
Berger, Daniel et al. “Isotope systematics and chemical composition of tin ingots from Mochlos (Crete) and other Late Bronze Age sites in the eastern Mediterranean Sea: An ultimate key to tin provenance?.” PloS one vol. 14,6 e0218326. 26 Jun. 2019, doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0218326
A little less than half their tin came from the mines of Cornwall. Their other big source was a mine in Afghanistan. I can't recall the name of the region, but tin is still mined there today.
The tin isotopes prove the extent of their ancient monopoly.
The chief goddess of Carthage, Tanit, is suspiciously close to the primordial destroyer Tiamat of dragon or watery form, and the corrupting Lilitu and Asuras/Asherah of Sumerian, Hindu, and Hebrew traditions. Given how prevalent human sacrifice was in other cultures flourishing at the time, it's not unreasonable to believe Roman assertions that that barbaric practice survived in Carthage even after their Phoenician for bears had adopted the scapegoat animal sacrifice custom
They taught child sacrifice to the Mayans
How about that other definition of holocaust? Seems child sacrifice was big business in ancient times.
Human sacrifices for YHWH…..
I think Phoenician and Hebrew were very closely related languages. Originally, they were probably similar peoples but the culture of those on the coast diverged from the ones inland. In a different way than the Greeks, the Israelites were also similar but different from the Phoenicians.
This story of the Phoenicians coming from the Red Sea is unlikely for that reason. The Israelites also had their stores of coming from elsewhere but archaeology suggests they were always there. (Yahweh apparently originally had a wife so the Israelite religion developed out of local ones).
When you say Phoenicians could be recognised "by their language", I wonder if that's the case. I would think it would be much more about religion and other cultural factors.
On another topic, I don't find it farfetched that they would have gone to Cornwall. We think of it as the back of beyond now but the tin there made it the most interesting bit of Britain for traders in ancient times. We do have archaeological evidence that, after the Romans withdrew from Britain, they continued to send ships to Cornwall to trade for tin.
Abraham's god asks his sacrificing his first bourn on the top of a hill ---- that's another footnote of human sacrificing custom in the global wide scale then.
Ha, King Solomon outside the Bible is Amenhotep III, Egypt. So the location is wrong. A lot of problems with the Bible. The Jesus story is clearly a myth but is based on reality if u understand the actual story. King Solomon/Amenhotep III and The Queen of Sheba/Queen Tiye. You should know how children are made.
I always find it a bit comical watching western historians struggle with the reality of a society who doesn’t anchor their entire existence on cultural identity. We naturally view history through such a modern western lens, that it often makes us misunderstand the ancient world. History REALLY became fun for me once I broke away from that.
The Phoenix is what remains of the memory of a dying and ressurecting dragon god, the purple dragon king who inspired the song, "Puff The Magic Dragon". If you expand your consideration of messianic trinities beyond the narrow confines of humanistic religions and the Abrahamic faiths, you'll make a lot more sense of human history and prehistory and gain a better understanding of the tug of war going on over UAP disclosure
They now have medication for schizophrenia by the way.
Counterpoint: Hannibal achieved nothing good for himself aside from selfishly creating his own legend, left a trail of death and destruction on both sides, made some woeful strategic decisions, and his actions helped lead to the destruction of his own civilisation. Even when applying the historian's free pass of "things were less civilised back then", Hannibal is one of the worst characters in history.
Where’s a Spartan when you need one. THEY sacrificed children in the most badass way possible. Hucking em off a cliff into the sea.
Now it turns out the Punic Punks didn’t even toss them in a bitchin fire?
Seriously it’s almost as if these Carthies didn’t even car about their harvest.
Which is why they lost to Rome, obviously.
The Greeks took the consonant signs from the Phoenicians. They added the vowels and thereby they created a real alphabet.
Our country sacrifices children everyday. Does that make democrats Phoenicians and or worshipers of Baal?
Oh this obviously a myth ..... But yes the Carthaginian names preserve Phoenecian styles. Are you for real? Much primary data for the Canaanite language is from Punic inscriptions.
Thumbnail about Carthage, title about Phoenicia? If you can't get that right, i know you'll play fast and loose with history. Hard pass.
Lol, what do you expect from these two limey grifters.
Yes they did.
What about the Etruscans?
Some scholars have shown how Latin and Etruscan connections.
I tend to think we call the Etruscans, the Phoenicians.