Breakthrough Heat Pump Works In the MOST Unusual Way…
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- Опубликовано: 4 июн 2024
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Just think about our lives without the invention of the heat pump. A magical device that makes ice cream, cool homes, and refrigerators possible. But for all their exceptional qualities, they have some problems, as anyone who runs the AC in the summertime knows. So some new research from Berkeley (GO BEARS!) , on a new ionocarloric heat pump piqued my interest! So how does it work, and what would it mean for the future of heat pumps? Let's find out together! Genius Cooling Tech Saves You $$, But You Won't Believe How...
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Chapters:
0:00 - Introduction
1:30 - Possible Solutions
4:00 - Ionocaloric Cooling
5:20 - How it works
8:20 - Key Breakthrough
9:15 - Traditional Heat Pumps
10:15 - Biggest Challenges
11:27 - The Next Big Thing
what we'll cover:
two bit da vinci,heat pumps,how does a heat pump work,energy efficiency,Breakthrough Heat Pump Can Save 50% on Cooling This Summer!,ionocaloric cooling,ionocaloric heat pump,ionocaloric heating and cooling,iono-caloric heat pump,geothermal heating and cooling,heat pump,heatpumps,saving money on ac,saving money on cooling,staying cool this summer,heat pumps explained,how does a heat pump work physics,how does a heat pump work thermodynamics, Breakthrough Heat Pump Can Save 50% on Cooling This Summer!, Genius Cooling Tech Saves You $$, But You Won't Believe How... 
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For a limited time only, get $115 off your subscription and a free wine tote! Follow my link bit.ly/BrightCellarsTwoBitdaVinci to take the quiz and see your personalized wine matches.
So, basically, cooling sucks.... ;)
FWIW. Our new house, we installed a new heat pump system. Same above the ground square footage, but a much smaller nelow ground heat sync. The unit at the new place is aleady costing less than a third of the old place. Nice!
You kept referring to sodium iodide as Na-L. It would be Na-I (capital i), not NaL.
@@Berkana So, Na Na Na NaNaNa Na. ;)
GW isn't real so we don't have to worry about it.
The title of your video is pretty much the opposite of what the video says. in fact it is not available this summer and it is not 50% cheaper than existing systems. in fact it is far more expensive and not available anytime soon. I don't appreciate the deceptive title just to create views when it has no connection to reality.
fixed it for you. It did come across way to clickbaity .
@@TwoBitDaVinci thanks I've enjoyed a lot of your videos
@@TwoBitDaVinci i blocked vera ta suim for clickbait titles. Our time is limited. Let us decide if we want to use it on your videos.
@@TwoBitDaVinci We do appreciate the difficulty in attracting viewers to something scienc-y which works the grey cells tiring them.
But the new caption is more honest and not at all deceptive. Thanks for that.
At the end, Ricky said, "We can't make cold."
Well, for decades, a large part of the US - especially rural communities - didn't have electric service. So Fridgidaire sold refrigerators that didn't need electricity. They operated on natural gas or LP gas, which was burned to make heat, like a stove, but instead made cold. Later, these same fridges could be retrofitted with a heater coil to replace the gas with electricity.
These fridges use either ammonia or sulfur dioxide; both are not harmful to the ozone layer. The ammonia is used as fertilizer, a tiny amount of sulfur dioxide is in air pollution - smog. These fridges were very heavy - they could be much lighter with modern materials like aluminum and plastic. They also added heat to the kitchen, which was already too hot. So most of these fridges got scrapped.
Another refrigerant that is being used is carbon dioxide! Yes, CO2! Also Butane.
The main point I'd like to make is it is **not** necessary for the refrigerant to be these CFCs or HFCs that are damaging the atmosphere. And these refrigerants have been used for decades with proven safety.
So why can't we go back to a "heat pump" we used 70 or more years ago and cool our food and homes? And get away from these atmosphere damaging refrigerants?
Rikki- you don't need to do so many camera transitions- your full-torso single-camera view is just fine for ALMOST ALL of your on-screen talk (obviously, you have to cut to the tablet screen view for your calcs, and thanks for the chance to follow them easily). A couple of side-cam cuts are fine, but a lot more and it detracts from some of the important information you're supplying.
GREAT job on posing the big engineering questions on this alternative refrigeration cycle, and not just dropping it out there for clicks!
Honestly for me it's the transitions... If they would be synced (not that talking while looking at the next camera) it would be fine imo
Also, turning away from the current camera feels disrespectful, turning towards the new camera works better.
Watch the news anchors you're copying (it doesn't help anything there either & they often do it to lower the perceived importance of what they're saying).
@@alanhat5252 Oh yeah, good point. I wouldn't say 'disrespectful' necessarily, but turning before cutting feels a bit jarring, cutting before turning is more natural.
Multiple angles are really helpful in editing though, because you can piece together parts of sentences and cover up the jump cuts.
I agree - and was going to post the same comment when I saw your posting.
This sort of "cut to different camera angle" is all over RUclips, has been for a couple of years. Drives me nuts. It's even starting to make its way into broadcasting, God only knows why.
Content is interesting though.
So, when you said "this summer" you meant "not anytime soon".
That's usually how things work lol. I remember years ago a car was going to come out. It was going to get a hundred miles to the gallon, it was going to be registered as a motorcycle even though it was a two-seater fully enclosed because at 3 wheels so you don't need insurance. And it was only going to cost $7,000 purchase price. So a two seat car that you don't have to pay car insurance on and you could actually afford... That gets 100 mi to the gallon... Car still isn't out but now they claim it's going to come out next year after like a decade... And instead of it being a gasoline car that gets 100 miles to the gallon and is $7,000, it's now going to be a fully electric car that costs $50,000
So the whole power to the people 100 miles to the gallon 7 grand is completely flushed down the toilet by making it more than seven times as much money
Haha like Elon and 2 weeks then. 😁
@@Bozemanjustin are you talking about the aptera?
Or about the air car (cat)?
I really appreciate how you talk about the breakthrough, then explain the real challenges to widespread adoption (not just in this video, but others as well). RUclips is full of these "science" channels that peddle a false narrative of a utopian future just a decade away. You do a great job of getting me excited about new technologies, but also keeping my expectations grounded in reality. Thank you!
Great vid. As an industrial hvac tech I’ve been following this for a few years. Personally I believe that ammonia chillers are the solution. All the refrigerant stays outside and heated or cooled water is sent inside. It’s a very efficient, has a GWP/ODP of 0, is cheap, and readily available. Only issue is the scare factor
Using the Sun as the heat-source to power it for AC it would run at almost $0 cost. Expensive upfront cost though
I have heared Co2 is used in industrial systems as well? How does it stack up against ammonia?
I have found ways to power a traditional heat pump that increases the efficiency 5x
heating or cooling cycle ?
@@davidbutler99
@@jac540 When I studied this (some 10 years ago), the discussion did favor CO2, due to lower risks in installments and maintenance.
Ammonia is slightly more efficient, superb for industrial applications (many district heating/district cooling systems in Sweden uses it), but a small leak will cause a smell that can make you pass out :P
CO2 is my bet for home applications
Propane is one of the most efficient refrigerants available.
It will work in almost every "heat pump"/'air conditioner' in existence.
The main negative is propane is very flammable.
It may be the best option.
But it will take a very determined effort to adapt a heat pump system to propane.
Propane is the best coolant for smaller systems like refrigerators, freezers and air conditioners, but it’s little too flammable for safe use in larger systems like communal/industrial systems and heat pumps.
@@MightyRude That's where chilled water loop comes in. Keep Propane circuit outside = perfectly safe.
Hey @TwoBitDaVinci great explanation, and I loved the fact that you did the math to show that this product is not yet feasible. One thing I wanted to say is that sodium iodide is abbreviated NaI, which is Na(EYE) and not Na(EL) as you said in the video. And that is why I prefer serif fonts ;)
An easy way to remember is chemical symbols always have a capital letter and sometimes ONE lower-case letter, and therefore compounds using symbols never have two lower-case letters in a row. Have a good day!
I can’t believe the industry isn’t far enough along as to be able to safely go back to ammonia refrigerant. It’s as much as 10% more efficient than CFCs were and is environmentally friendly with a global warming potential of Zero! I mean, if small refrigerators and coolers filled with butane as a refrigerant are safe, why not ammonia?
It is all about money and patents!
ammonia _is_ used in some equipment
@@alanhat5252 True but specialty use isn’t mainstream which is more my point.
I suppose if it leaked from your fridge you could clean the floors with it
Sodium iodide is NaI. That’s N.A.I, not N.A.L
4:56 🤦🏽🤦🏽
I understand how he made his mistake. I’ll elaborate. Notice when I typed the word “I’ll” the uppercase i appeared exactly like the lowercase Ls.
What he may not have considered is that the first letter in all atomic abbreviations is always uppercase; whereas, the second letter is always lowercase.
Another thing that may have led to his confusion is that not all atomic abbreviations have any similarities to their full English names. For example, gold is abbreviated as Au.
All of this just means that he probably didn’t pass any chemistry classes, but then again my wife graduated from high school without even being able to do simple math. If my wife can’t figure out how to subtract nine from seventeen even with a high school diploma, then perhaps he was also able to pass a chemistry class without having even a basic understanding of chemistry.
Yes, he did make a mistake, but he does offer access to a lot of useful information. Tell me something. His job is to try to inform his viewers about newer environmental technologies are coming into existence? If he were to only put out videos once he completely understands the topics, then he might only put out one or two videos a year. This would make it practically impossible for him to keep up with the flow of newer technologies. Yes, it would be nice if he were to be able to put out completely accurate information as often as he currently puts out videos, but that is just not going to happen.
Propane and butane work well. The main objection to them is that they are flammable. Well, all of the traditional refrigerants are also flammable, particularly when mixed with the lubricating oil they use.
The COP of 2.75 must not be taking into account the pumping losses of moving 600L (or more) for the ionocaloric cooling system. I'd like to see a more detailed analysis of where, and how much, energy is used in the IC heat pump.
If so, then it's not the COP
Of course it is taken into account. Ther is 70% loss from theoretical (rcop 0.3) taken into acount to give a cop of 2.75
Even if it's not a contender right now, it's exciting to hear about tech advances. Thank you 😊
Couldn’t agree with you more!
@@TwoBitDaVinci agreed but please stop using title screens that imply that the current vaporware is something you can find in Lowes.
On the topic of cooling, I think deep-water air conditioning is the perfect solution for the vast majority of the global population. I live in Toronto. We have a district cooling system that serves the tallest buildings in the Financial District of downtown, where KPMG, Deloitte, and the largest banks are located. It has a cooling power of 207 megawatts. It pulls chilled water from the bottom of Lake Ontario, which remains at a steady 4°C all year long.
How long is Lake Ontario going to stay at 4°C if you keep on dumping 207MW of power into it?
@@kevinmills5293 "Power" is not dumped into Lake Ontario. I think you're thinking of waste heat.
Secondly, waste heat is not dumped into the lake, it's transferred into Toronto's drinking water during the summertime.
@@kevinmills5293 If you continuously dump 207MW into Lake Ontario then it will take 1051 years to raise it by 1 degree C assuming lake exists in perfect vacuum and has no heat radiating out. But in reality the lake absorbs and radiates heat into earth and space due to weather and physics.
@@antronx7 does Lake Ontario have flow? If so that thousand years per degree is being distributed across other places, I'm guessing the Atlantic...
Oh, no! You're going to alter the temperature of the environment! Of course, you're not in California, so perhaps the world will not end. For decades industries there have been forced to reduce or stop using the ocean as a source of once through cooling, or to pay "interim mitigation" fees to compensate for the determined 'environmental damage' that their waste heat has been declared to have caused. Central CA intakes are not as deep or as cold as "the bottom of Lake Ontario", and yearly water temps average around 14°C. Colder further north, warmer south. A couple of years ago, the nuclear plant paid US$4M/year in these fees.
That said, "the vast majority of the world population" does not have concentrated heat sources like skyscrapers, nor is it conveniently / economically close to bodies of water like yours. Such systems have their own operational and maintenance costs and headaches.
Click bait.
Fascinating video extremely well presented! Kudos to you, sir, for your amazing channel.
And a thousand thanks for all your usage of metric. I am a very old lifelong American but my stay in France as a young college student converted me irrevocably to SI. Keep up your fine work! 😊
Salt is very corrosive and desalination takes replaceable membranes so it would require constant maintenence and daily inspections to insure consistent use. It's an interesting idea but to work realistically it would need some very serious development and years of prototyping.
Not all salts need to be corrosive. Take a look at SaltX nanocoated salt. It's none corrosive, but it take a lot of energy to dry it.
SaltX developed a very interesting concept of using an electric arc to dry/reload their salt, and there is another market that might be able to benefit from that electric arc technology.
The cement industry. The cement production releases hugh amounts of CO2 during decarbonization of concrete. SaltX technology might put an end to that by developing a heating procedure that can be energized by solar or wind power.
This isn't specifically referring to Sodium Chloride though, it's a different salt and a different desalination process. So that may not apply.
To put the gains from potential new membranes into perspective, one of the most interesting variables would be how the CoP decays at higher ambient temperatures. Because rh=ight now, that is the weakness of propane and R407c, which cannot pump much heat to an ambient temperature tht approaches 50 degrees celsius.
Another great and comprehensible video from you.
Great video! Thanks for taking your time to make this information available to me/us.
Came here just to comment on the sponsor.. the way you display the wine sponsor is incredible, so interesting, i don't even like wine. I just appreciate you ACTUALLY promoting the wine in a very satisfying way. The unboxing looks incredible.
Thanks!
Thanks! Fascinating technology presented with its promise and challenges.
You threw a LOT of data at us today. Pause/rewind helped a lot. I learned a ton about something I thought I already knew about. Thanks!
We still have a hole in the ozone despite the switch. All that ban did was make a lot of money for the chemical manufacturer since the patent had run out on the CFCs! Always follow the money!
Hole got alot smaller
Excellent quantitative analysis.
I appreciate all your effort thank you.......👍🏽💯
thank you Ryan!
OMG!!! America ACTUALLY signed up for something "for the good of the planet"!!!
Miracles will never cease!
What's the min temperature that this would work at?
Do the exchange membranes need replaced?
Modern airliners use "air cycle machines" for heating and cooling. The only refrigerant used is the compressed air that powers it.
R600 and Cyclopentane are hydrocarbon based refrigerant that is efficient as HFC based systems and they are very cheap and have nearly no GWP. People talk about the flammability but we store plenty of flammables very safely and the volume equates to very little compared to gasoline.
The old R12 & R22 actually used in refrigeration actually had a tiny impact on the ozone layer. The real problem came from uses like aerosol cans, foam rubber, foam insulation, Styrofoam, etc. Landfills were releasing billions of tons per year. In contrast actual refrigeration systems are sealed. The ISS uses ammonia. Simple hydrocarbons like propane (combustible) also work well. Returning to old banned refrigerants might be the best path. Simply pass a subsidy for recycling the stuff so there is no recycling fee.
This is what I was wondering. How much refrigerant actually escapes from refrigeration systems?
It is good to see a youtuber that knows how to use a spreadsheet.
Great stuff ! Have you done a segment on CO@ as a refrigerant? I would love to see a comparison. You, by the way, have a TON of very great data for us viewers.
Great video!
instead of desalinating the water why don't they super saturate the salt and then it'll drop out on its own ? We all did that experiment in science class, where we kept adding salt to water until it was super saturated and all the salt fell back out of the water?
Because you would need to reverse the supersalination anyway to get the system back to its original state. It’s the only way to make it a cycle
Having worked on our own desal tech, I can see the problem here and have at least four solutions. I think I'll run now. 🏃♂
I tuned in because the headline said, "This Summer". I'm disappointed Thumbs down for that.
Ricky, Thank you for multiple viewpoints of the story as we discussed after the lab food story. This is why I normally enjoy your content.
Thanks we try to cover the details as evenly as we can while still making it entertaining
I agree. It’s what adds more value to this channel compared to others
Very interesting technology, I'm excited to see where it goes. Where I work we're always trying to innovate new HVAC technologies. Right now it seems like next big step for the industry is going to CO2 instead of refrigerants like R410A. The big scary part is CO2 systems use much higher pressure. For example a R410A system might be around 350psi whereas a CO2 system is like 1000psi. This can be scary for technicians knowing if there's a leak it could cut your hand off. It is a greener solution though, so we just need to be safe about it.
I think cheaper and safer to use Propane R290 as refrigerant which has similar properties to R22 while GWP = 0.02 and Ozone depletion = 0. Flammability issue is solved by using plate heat exchanger to pump chilled water into the living space while Propane circuit stays outside.
@@antronx7 propane liquifies at quite high pressure too, you can hear the pump struggling when it fills up your campervan LPG tank.
@@alanhat5252 Still quite reasonable. At 50C it liquifies at 233psi which is still well within pressures in modern refrigerant systems. For example, mini splits go up to 500psi.
Liquid Carbon Dioxide is being used as a medium in heat pumps. It works well and is Carbon negative.
The aerial pictures of the university at the beginning of the video when you mention UC Berkeley are actually pictures of the number 1 rated public university for the last several years - UCLA. Go Bruins.
Great presentation as always.
THANKS RICKI,FOR CHOOSING A GREAT SPONSOR 😋💚💚💚
8:04 So how does the frozen liquid get circulated back to the point where the salt is added back to make the slurry? Is it just that the diagram is not laid out accurately maybe and the salt is added back in at the heat release / freezing component (i.e., what would essentially be the equivalent to the Condenser in a normal HVAC system)?
Or is it not truly frozen as in a "solid" but rather a colder, thicker more dense but still flowable state?
It would be moving fast enough through the cycle that it doesn't have a chance to freeze "solid", it would be like the slushies at the convenience store. The mechanical agitation and short duration of exposure would make it so that it is still "pumpable".
@@trapfethen refrigerators & HVAC cycle on & off...
@@alanhat5252 This is a variable rate system, rather than a conventional cycle-based system. The speed will slow down or speed up depending on the demand.
How they deal with the first power-on of the season I have no idea. Likely by either dropping the pressure until the solid liquifies, or mixing the salt into the solid block somehow.
Very interesting! I just wish I could heat water in my water tank, and my future jacuzzi (I wish) while cooling the house with A/C (heat exchange) Even better, if I could warm my food in the oven, while I have nice cold beer from the keg cooler. Boil water for coffee, while my ice maker pops out crunchy bullet ice.. All this while cutting my electric consumption. I know it's possible with today's technology but utility companies are much to interested in continuing the user pays plan.. the more we use, the more we pay!
Heat recovery is available. But it is scaled for commercial applications and would be very expensive for residential applications . If money is no object you could do it tomorrow. They are called VRF systems and are available from LG, Mitsubishi, Daikin and others.
@@alberthartl8885 heat recovery is generally part of Passivhaus - it is on domestic scale right now.
Some heat pumps use co2 as the vector gas. It’s already on the market. Look it up
We should also line road sides with seeds of trees bushes flowers and succulents to reduce flooding heat wind and noise pollution air and ground pollution.
Absolutely we should.
That would have to be balanced by the cost of maintenance: workers, tools, vehicles (the latter two electric, hopefully). I do like the idea, though.
Also, it sounds like it is solid at temperatures that other heat pumps work so would need more defrost cycles to work in the winter.
I'm curious if this idea thought about it functioning in hot environments. Most climates near to equator don't stay near 72degrees F. It can get as hot as 104F.
11:40 - “unless it can compete in price and performance…”
Longevity. If the newer system can last 2x as long, that can also help. Sure, that is performance, but it is a clear ROI parameter.
Very good point
Really interesting video!
This tech has a *massive* amount of potential! Not only can they do research on the membranes but also to see if there might be a substance even more effective than ethylene carbonate. I would look at ionic liquids.
Minds solving problems; love it!
We do too.
Thanks Ricky. Are you able to compare this to an ammonia vapour chiller? My grandmother had a fridge that ran for decades using a heat source for cooling. I think it ran on kerosene. It's very interesting, and I wonder if it can be applied to home cooling.
Wow ! I had forgotten about these fridges, ammonia (R717)has the lowest global warming potential of all refrigerants GWP =1, followed closely by R290 GWP =2 . It is also very cheap and extremely robust system, but I would imagine that when used in an absorption cycle, not very efficient. They are a very common camping fridge , running on gas, kerosene, paraffin or high/low voltage heater . I doubt that any company would be interested in developing it any further as they have no moving parts and work for decades without any servicing , my neighbour has one in a campervan and it's probably over 50 years old and still working.
The heat-driven refrigerators are terribly inefficient, but they’re great for off-grid refrigeration.
Ammonia would work fine for home HVAC, but he problem it’s so noxious: Leaks could be dangerous, and even the small amount that escapes when you attach gauges to a system to check the pressure would be problematic for the service technicians.
@@Pats-Shed Interesting. Ours was used in an off-grid situation in Papua New Guinea for decades and as far as I know it never had a single issue.
I wonder about applying modern technology to it -- if it can be made safer, or if there's now an alternative to ammonia that can accomplish the same task.
@@DaveEtchells Great info! Do you think a modern version could be made much safer?
@@prawnmikus Thanks! I think there’s no getting around the fact that ammonia is nasty stuff. You could try to avoid leaks, but at some point people are going to be exposed to it when installing or servicing the units. (I don’t know what they did in the early days when it was used, but there wasn’t OSHA back then either ;-)
Wow! That’s a lot of packaging for 3 bottles of wine! Also, thanks for this socially conscious video about making AC more Earth friendly!
This is interesting and if they can commercialize the current challenges it'll be exciting. I'm assuming this is reversible for applications that demand both heat and cool like houses and cars.
So, what would stop us from using this new process while still using compression and decompression? Using both together seems like you could get some nice synergies, such as more rapid cooling which would increase your effective cooling power if not the total..
Also, I know that the boiling point of water changes at different pressures, what does the boiling point of this solution do at different pressures? Maybe at lower pressures the boiling point lowers creating another synergistic way of separating the salt?
This still requires using the compressors, but we are already doing so now. Such a design could make current tech smaller for the same BTU rating or increase our largest available sizes.
Really considering changing over my entire home heating and cooling system to a heat pump when I need to change it. Living in WI it's still something I know will struggle in the winter and will be less efficient, but I don't know if I can get a in ground to make it work more efficient.
I love using the best minds to work on solutions and not weapons !!!! The citizens need some ROI from the tax dollars and not a massive over supply of tanks and weapons. Paying taxes is fine but ...... NOT getting anything in return sucks. Rikki this channel helps me avoid the dumb out there and learn something and maybe see some newer tech and ideas coming up. Thank you so much for showing us where we might be heading and not propping up the past as some great thing. The future is where we are heading so i appreciate the channel soooo much sir.
Cool
I see potential practical problem: this cycle makes transitions between liquid and solid phase. Solids don't flow. Author mentioned slush (suspension of solid particles in a liquid) but how do we assure limit of maximum particle size in it? This system could be prone to clogging the slush pathways. We didn't have that kind of problem with cycles changing working material state between two fluid phases.
What if we did the opposite of what fluid phases heat pumps do and used a working fluid which is liquid at normal atmospheric pressure, so that it doesn't readily disperse in the atmosphere if the system seal is compromised? What if we used something as common and environmentally safe as pure water for such systems?
What's the life span on the ion membranes? Does is break down overtime or develop dendrites?
Electrolytes! It's what plants crave!
Electrodialysis would be much slower than current compression cycles. To compensate the heat pump volume would need to be much larger. Huge boxes that many users could not accommodate.
Wow, this is very interesting. Also seems like a great solution to desalinization of seawater as well without all the filters. Wouldn't that work?
that's how desalination filters work.
@@alanhat5252 I believe @robinsoncrusoeonmars8594 meant that instead of the closed loop ionocaloric cycle we take the mixer out of the equation and just supply a constant source of seawater. Probably could but the efficiency would be much lower as you likely need a much higher ion concentration is my guess..
I think we are more likely to see Sterling heat pumps replace the current design than this method. All a Sterling heat pump is, is a Sterling engine run in reverse. A motor turns the shaft and the working gas is compressed and decompressed. They work OK with nitrogen as the working gas so it could be nice for the environment. The downside is they are big for the amount of cooling/heating.
There's lots of different ways of doing Stirling cycle, some are bigger than others.
@@alanhat5252 Yes but all are more or less large for the amount of cooling. Still for a stationary thing like cooling a house it may not matter that it is larger than a phase change based design.
Go Bears! I graduated EECS in 2006. I wonder if we ever crossed paths.
Are you Kidding?? My roommate gaduated EECS 2006, and I was the next building over at Etcheverry Hall ME, class of 2006. that's so cool
You should do a video on absorption cycle heat pumps like Lithium-Bromide and Ammonia-Water. US nuclear submarines use Lithium-Bromide cooling to get rid of the tremendous heat generated inside a submarine.
Swedish submarines use that heat to run Stirling-cycle engines to charge the propulsion batteries.
Ammonia was used for decades and is a more efficient refrigerant and much cheaper than CFC's. It's completely environmentally safe but poisonous if spilled and Dupont can't patent it so we stopped using it mostly, though it's still used in large industrial equipment.
Question??? How will the corrosive properties of salt in a closed refrigeration system affect the containment metal that houses it? Just curious... Thanks, great videos
Can this be used in district cooling applications? Especially those based on Water?
or we could use R290 refrigerant also known as Propane which is very efficient and before you say it will blow up it is so efficient you need very little r290 in a system.
Solid state refridgerant methods promise less expensive more efficent and potentially smaller AC/heatpump devices.
The premise that gaseous refridgerants are undesireable is weak at best. Propane (R290) is a great refrigerant and is used in many countries. Curiously it is banned in the US for home units, purpordedly due to the flamability concerns (for the conspiracy minded, the use of popane does not financially benefit chemical companies). The Global Warming Potential of propane is extremely low (< .1 - depending on the report) while R410a is > 1,900 (C02 = 1).
I think a potential benefit is that this ought to be much more accessible for the average person to install themselves. The systems we have now, while not that complicated to set up, are very sensitive and precise. It takes very little to screw them up. Unless you have all the tools and a pre-charged system, you need to involve an HVAC tech, which is not cheap.
Seems to me ionocaloric cooling will be much more accessible for the average handy person to install *and* maintain.
A traditional heat pump can work as both efficient heating and as cooling. Some models can operate as a heat source down to -22F/-30C outside temperature.
If this material freezing point is 43F/6C, does that mean it would not function below that ambient temperature?
In temperate climates that have very cold seasons, the heating component of a heat pump can be a large cost savings as is both more efficient than electric or gas heating but also reduces the amount of HVAC equipment needed.
Besides costs being only able to generate a 36 degree temperature drop kind of is a problem. Food refrigeration needs to produce sub zero temperatures. In commercial cooling this looks marginal where you are circulating 45 degree water and your condensing water is at 80.
I blow the heat out all night with fans and close up at 8am. House is cool all day. Have never needed an air conditioner.
Where do you live?
Michigan. I am lucky enough to live where it cools off at night and I have super insulation.
Down to earth (DTE) learning.
Maybe I missed it, but would this also be able to heat? What I have seen on a lot of heat pumps lately is being able to be reversable. Also, worth comparing this to the ASHRAE 90.1 standards for COP & EER. Usually these numbers are above 3.25 for COP in the 2007 edition, though this depends on size, as the larges the size the more efficient it tends to be overall.
I'll take a look, and yes it can heat as well! would need some sort of reversing valve but doable
@@TwoBitDaVinci or reversing pump
0:30 Can't believe that sign is still working!!
HFCs can be replaced by CO2 and many large grocery chains have already done this. CO2 is taken out of the atmosphere.
Just bc a chem can be made from co2 doesnt mean its economically feasable to make from co2 whivh was captured from the air. However , a middle ground here could be using co2 from captured emmissions
Co2 is a great refrigerant. Can be produced from capturing carbon from breweries.
there is a paint that is made that actually decreases the temperature of what its on by a few degrees below outside temps by reflecting light. maybe something reflective could be used for increasing efficiency. heat is red light so if we can reduce its losses.
I read an article that said while R-1234YF is a very good alternative for small systems, like autos, fridges, freezers etc and wasn't GWP... the best alternative for home and commercial heat pumps was actually Co2. It works the same as current systems. While it is a green house gas, it is much less so that R12, R410a, etc.
The main problem we it wouldn't be a simple evacuation and charge (maybe change a few valves) like R22 to r410a is. The line set would have to be much larger diameter-wise.
But this salt thing sounds promising. Also, I wonder how loud it is. Without compressors, it seems more like a chemical reaction that will by much more silent. Although I'd love to get a ground source heat pump. There just not really catching on here in FL.
All HFO's including R1234yf will probably be banned since they create a different environmental problem. TFA = Triflouroacetate.
The future of refrigeration and HVAC will be based on natural refrigerants like CO2 (R744), Propane (R290), Isobuthane (R600a), Butane (R600), Propylene (R1270), Amonia (R717).
CO₂ works at 1000psi apparently
VW group (Audi, Porsch, VW etc already use R744 (CO2) in there electric car heatpumps. I have one and it works very well for both heating and cooling. Although a greenhouse gas it is carbon neutral as it can be made by extracting it from air.
@@fredderf6491 Great.
Let's see how they last over time.
In the cooling industry where I work CO2 units break down much more often than units based on HC refrigerants. R290, R600a, R436B, R1270 all work with low pressure around 5-15 bar on the HP side, while CO2 use around 80-100 bar.
CO2 compressors work harder and create more vibrations = more stress.
However...
Natural refrigerants are the way forward.
If you use the same amount of power a decent size air conditioner needs and apply that to peltier cooling can it cool a similar size room or home? Now if it could it we probably would be using them, I am still curious though.
Lets say a window ac used 15 amps. I would like to see a 15 amp peltier cooling array built with an efficient heat exchanger with a fan driving air through it to see how many btu of cooling 15 amps could achieve.
It would be easy to use a finned aluminum heat sink but would probably be more efficient to use a Peltier to copper water heat exchanger run that to a small radiator then air though that. For the sake of testing I would try and package it the same way a window air conditioner would be, same exact size for the sake of testing. How many BTU's could it pump from one side - inside to the other side - outside.
For those who don't know what a peltier cooler is, these are small flat around 2"x2" and popular for computer CPU cooling. A Peltier cooler can transfer a lot of heat per sq inch. These peltier coolers are also used to build small coolers for cars so you can plug this into 12V and cool your drinks like a ice chest style, while you drive.
Google "peltier cpu cooler" or "peltier drink chest cooler" to see these.
it would probably work but it's at the wrong end of the price curve at the moment
As I understand it: Peltier cooling is very inefficient. Its advantage is being very compact with no moving parts.
How about revisiting the ammonia/water cooling cycle?
Go Bears! Indeed.
You Bet! class of 2006
@@TwoBitDaVinci '96
How well do the membranes and other components hold up to long term use? How pure do the solutions / chemicals need to be to avoid reducing the unit's lifespan.
You say there is no way it can compete with traditional refrigeration. I say, if they can find a way to profit the government will mandate it and make existing systems illegal to own/operate. All they will have to do is say it is better for the environment.
Great video. Love the math and breakdown of the operation.
Way to build up the expectations and then pop the bubble :)
The mentioned working fluids are all prorietory, replacing R12 with other manufactured refrigerants was a step backwards in heat transfer. R12 can be directly replaced in a system with isobutane and isopropane mix. R600a, and is more efficient. Most refrigerators are using this mix. Even better is CO2 as a working fluid where it can run a hydronic heating system with high COP can approach 6 even when doing 80° C differential. When declaring COP the temperature differential is often omitted and a geothermal COP of 5 is very high. often stated under optimal condition, conventional heat pumps can get to COP 1 under extreme condition where water freezing occurs. CO2 needs a higher pressure but is more efficient. Marketed as Ecocute. CO2 has lowest green house gas potential of 1 compared to the other working fluids.
While obviously the current density is too low because of the cost of the material as a refrigerant, a low energy density is not necessarily a deal breaker for a heating/cooling system underfloor and radiant wall heating/cooling have proven to actually increase household efficiency due to the subjective heating/cooling effects of these systems leading to inside temperatures being set for less of a delta from outside.
A heat pump system which is using a massive amount of stable non-gaseous refrigerant can leverage this by distributing its heat exchanger through the house via underfloor, in wall, in ceiling, and radiant wall/ceiling units.
This also improves overall efficiency of the heating/cooling system because you are not creating a massive temperature delta in a single location and then relying on forced air to distribute it (no need for a distributor fan, ducting, etc).
Still talking about needing at least a 10x increase in density though.
The number of ways this system could experience catastrophic failure paints a nightmare scenario for the average home trying to use it.
AC maintenance companies will love it though. More moving parts, means more breakdowns, then more repairs, and a higher cost to repair new tech.
Also, i find it funny that he opens on environmental concerns over closed loop systems & then offers an equivalently environmentally irrelevant system that costs more energy to run... think of that again, closed loop. The coolant doesn't leave the system unless you break it and spring a leak...
As a mechanic that now has to deal with r1234yf which is super flammable and omg so exp on car HVAC systems omg!
Also just like r134 systems they naturally leak and require a recharge ever 3-5years if not damaged!
Yea, not a feasible alternative to liquid refrigerants right now. You can get COP of 5 at partial load with mini split AC today for $1000 per Ton of capacity. As for partially flammable refrigerants, there are new safety standards and technologies like leak detectors to make them safe.
First time viewer here, and if you'll take some mild presentation criticism I have to say that I found the constant turning away from the camera to talk into the distance to be a bit weird. Having the camera catch up and switch over after a while is a little unnecessary if you're just going to turn away from the audience and have the cameras chase you around the block again moments later. My suggestion is to pick your favourite angle and stick with it. Alternatively, if you really have to switch angles for some reason, you could do the switchover first and then turn to look at the active one rather than have the cameras lag behind you.
Basic physics determines the outcome. Heat,and by that I mean the Fermi level of energy in a molecule,determines the state of that molecule. A solid becomes a liquid becomes a gas. Each change of state transfers energy in the form of expansion or contraction of a molecule. These are sudden limits,not gradual.
A solid,say ice isn't readily transported and it's transfer of energy within a solid matrix is slow.
In water,turning into a gas,steam,and then back to water the transfer is fast for a given mass.
Power is a change of state in units of time. BTUs per hour. The salt solution can only transfer 12k btus with say,1200lbs of solution. Whereas it takes about 1.5 lbs of gas.
I'm using water because everybody is familiar with it and most people cook with it. They are mostly unfamiliar with dry superheat which acts more like a gas.
I'm mostly worried about what kinds of salination/desalination issues we would have using Na Iodide with known materials.
There’s a massive huge enormous difference between what occurs in a test tube in a laboratory and what happens in the real world.
If you were to scale the atmosphere down to the size of an Olympic swimming pool the entire amount of carbon dioxide would be about the size of a baseball. The HFCs would be less than a drip from an eye dropper. If you scaled the amount of thermal energy c02 actually captures and warms the atmosphere by that base ball would be lukewarm to freezing.
Water vapour is the only significant greenhouse gas. It is so significant that it actually beats c02 to the punch and robs it of the majority energy that c02 might capture. Just think of c02 as a skinny little kid being pushed out of line by all the jocks at the cafeteria and only being able to get a few crumbs to eat.
And then thanks to physics heat rises it never falls, it may be slowed down by a blanket but carbon dioxide doesn’t make a blanket at one part in two thousand five hundred there just isn’t enough.
Make a video on quantum generator patent..
Energy X has the best membranes that I know of.
hoping to do a video about them soon!