WHY You're Told You Can't Have More Solar Panels Fitted
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- Опубликовано: 26 июн 2024
- Looking to get solar fitted because of the energy crisis or already had it fitted and want more? You might notice all the quotes you have seem to only want to fit a 3.68kw inverter infact I've seen a 3.68kw inverter fitted on a home with 10kw of panels on the roof and a 15kwh home storage battery but WHY? It comes down to how electricians have extra work to carry out if you want anything bigger. Here in the UK the DNO need to ensure the local grid wires don't melt. All solar at 3.68kw or below requires ONLY a g98 form which is sent in AFTER the solar is connected however if you want it JUST a tiny bit bigger your need to fill in a G99 form this form is the same form for a solar farm or wind turbine and is very long and complex
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00:00 Why My Inverter is Only 3.68kw
00:25 Genuine Reasons - Roof
01:25 You Don't Want To Over Generate Solar
02:25 East & West Array Solar
03:51 Why 8kw Array but 3.78kw Inverter
04:53 Admin Is The Answer G98 Easy
05:22 Solar G99 Is a Headache
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There's now a new G99 fast track process that comes into force in Nov 22 for domestic customers who can now get up to 32A per phase connected in a 10-day fast track process.
32A a phase is your upgrade? In Massachusetts anything less than 30A a phase has been illegal for 25 years.
About time. Lot of the regulations are designed to stop people from getting solar in the first place.
@@joshentheosparks7492 220V vs 110V, I suspect.
At twice the voltage though. I suspect US is 110 per phase, UK is 230V
@@joshentheosparks7492 240v ?🤣 Erm
My experience of owning an array on a north facing roof it that generates 50% of a comparable south facing roof - averaged over a year. A couple of points: 1) on cloudy days with diffuse lighting, the direction matters not a jot. North is as good as South. 2) In the summer, when the sun is high in the sky, the north array is almost as good as a south. So the 50% is averaged out over the year. One final point is that using Solar Edge equipment minimises shading - well worth investigating further.
So your saying install on ALL the roofs you have then Robert?
Oh yes, even north - use separate inverters or Solar Edge to overcome shading issues
I have a 4kW south facing array & a separate 3kW north facing one. On an annual basis the north one produces about 50% of the output of the south facing one
@@robertharvey9698 If you’d install a 4KW north facing array you average 66% (to make things comparable).
@@RoaldHemel35 I understand that, I was pro- rating to make a meaningful comparison. Also, the 3kW system is oversized input to output. With Solar Edge you can oversize by 155% input to output. But the extra capacity is quite recent & just quoting numbers wouldn’t help due to the context being wrong.
We've just been told by the local DNO (SP Energy Networks) that we have to fit a 12kW export limiter to a 33kW array on a large leisure centre because of local 'network limitations' despite the building having an incoming 3 phase, 200A per phase supply. The place is open every day from 8am to 9pm using a large amount of power in internal high bay lighting and air conditioning. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Seems like somebody is terrified of losing kWh sales.
Yeah but if you use it then why care
There is now also what is known as G99 fast track. This allows a G98 approved inverter to be used with its export to the grid monitored and controlled via a G100 approved device so that it can generate more power, but will vary its output so that its export to the grid is limited to an agreed value - normally the 16A/3.68kW output. This allows the installed solar system to generate addition output if you are using it in your own home, so works well if you have EVs, battery storage, water heater and/or heating that uses electricity rather than gas.
If an installer does not know about this solution, it maybe worth looking for an installer that does as it indicates they do not keep up with changes in the market place.
Do the DNO's charge for a G99 fast track application?
@@robinlander1158 Each DNO does their own thing when it comes to fees, so you need to check with your local DNO. The point of G99 fast track is to turn the process into a form and tick box process - so any fees charged should be far lower than those made for a full G99 application.
Just to clarify, if I had 10kW of panels, 10kWh of DC batteries, and an 8kW G100 approved hybrid inverter, I'd be able to do the G99 fast track (G99 A1.2) as the export can be limited to 3.68kW?
@@AphexTwin99999 Logically yes, but I think you would need a registered installer to add the export monitoring device, connect everything up and do the required registration and paperwork.
You do a great job explaining at a decent pace so that I don’t get bored and stop listening and the info is spot on. A lot of videos on RUclips take so long to say basic stuff and I find they miss all the information that you’ve mentioned.
Keep up the good work 👏👏👏
Awesome! Thank you!
There is another reason. Most houses could carry enough solar to run their entire house with battery support. The problem with this there is no tax income for the government. No VAT, no business taxes, nothing. You make your own power, store it and use it. Government earns nothing.
The government don't want renewables unless they control the income stream. Great video, thank you.
Utter nonsense, Solar and battery installs are VAT free, heat pump installs have a £7500 Government grant and are VAT free (although the installer will likely bump the price up on both). I installed solar and batteries, the government put up no barriers to me doing that, the only one you could argue is a barrier is the MCS requirement that suppliers insist on so you get paid for export, but you can install without this. There are also so planning and/or permitted development rules, but these have been relaxed last year. Also most house could not install enough solar to run with out the grid, even with batteries. I've a big house, I currently have 8.74kWp of solar and 29 kWh of batteries, in the winter it is not enough by a long shot, I'm installing another 6.5kWp of panels, it still won't be enough for the winter, BUT my summer exports already cover our full electric and gas bills.
Some of the things I mentioned have changed for the better since your comment, but it sounds to me that you have no idea what you are talking about!
You've done your homework mate, well done, I've been through all this myself, now Ive got 4.5kw on my south facing roof (unshaded) a 5kw hybrid inverter and 2 10kw batteries, for my small terranced house it's overkill I know but through the summer I'm making nearly £100 a month in exports on Octopus Agile Outgoing, hence I've built up £400+ in credit which should be more than enough to get me through the winter, I'm basically off-grid and have been for over a year now, I've also had a switchover fitted in case of power cuts, I did have an EPS but I want the option of powering the entire house. Great video and much appreciated. 🤜🤛
Find your local regulators and hug them. There are local governments with vested interests in competing technologies - such as Tennessee Valley Authority, USA (hydroelectric power). They do not buy any form of distributed power. I would install enough PV to be making house payments with excess power if they did.
You should be mining crypto currency! WOW missed opportunity. dont sell back to octopus for pennies. Mine Bitcoin and retire happy.
@@E69apeTheMatrix420 mine Bitcoin??? Why on earth would you do that. Mine a privacy coin, don't let the government surveil you.
@@MoaningGit WOW! Well said. I am doing exactly that myself. I mean for a rookie at least. I love MWC.
Abou, can I have your advice please?
I do have south facing roof, no shading at all. The maximum number of panels I can go is 8. Looking at 5kWh inverter and at the moment only 1 5kWh battery.
Can you share your set up? Brand and where you live please?
I honestly feel all options should be given to the customer so the customer can decide themselves
I think they should take a FEE to submit the paperwork, but if they can't figure out how to properly get the form approved then they refund the money. Otherwise, they have no accountability to actually jump through the extra hoops to get it approved
Thankfully things did get better. Quick form to my DNO, permission granted for 8kW inverter within in a few days and all for zero fee. Getting the sun to shine... that has alluded me.
I have a 14 panel Solar edge system on a south facing garage roof in NE England. Peak array output in optimum conditions is upto 5KW which is obviously way more than domestic consumption most of the time so I also have a 10KWh battery. On good days in the summer the battery can be full by lunchtime after which I lose power into the grid. This prompted me to get a hybrid car when I changed this summer and I have a Volvo V60 which has its own 10KWh battery. This works for me as I work mainly from home so the car can be charged during the periods of peak generation and use the power previously exported into the grid.
From November to February however production falls dramatically which means that the battery spends long periods at its minimum charge setting of 11% which is optimised for summer use. This is where I find Solar edge limiting as I would like to have control of the battery draw setting so it could be set higher in the winter and if combined with an isolator be used as a cover for power cuts rather than as a generation extender in the far more productive summer months.
My personal experience of asking for a 28 panel 11kW array with a 10kW battery, has been very straightforward. The installer didn't blink. They explained the DNO permission situation and have submitted the application to the DNO without any deposit. I've already made sure that the cutout fuse was upgraded to 100amps and had a smart meter fitted. I already have a Zappi installed for my EV. My roof is almost directly East West but has quite a shallow pitch, so both roofs get sun for well over half the day. I can almost spit as far as the substation and there isn't much PV installed locally.
Very lucky if you are near a substation or pole transformer (I’m talking within 50m), as most beyond that would struggle to get more than 8kW of anything allowed without works.
Hi
Can I have please some contact no to your installer?
Thanks
A battery's energy storage capacity is expressed as kilowatt hours. Not kilowatts.
Just for completeness - if you don't apply for, or are refused anything larger than 3.68kW, it only means you cannot output more than that back to the grid. It does not mean you can't fit a system capable of generating more than that.
You could fit a ~10kW system which charges suitably sized batteries and force the inverter to only output 3.68kW once the battery is at 100%.
I stick by my advice that if you intend to fit solar, put as many panels that produce as much combined power onto as much roof space as you have available. Do it once and do it as big as possible. If you have to budget, then pay less for a smaller inverter or battery, then aim to upgrade it when your situation changes.
How do you get your system to just export 3.68kw?
You need an inverter that is capable of doing this.@@mutton_man
@@mutton_manexport limit
Great advice 👍
Great video mate. Had applied for a big system with big inverter and submitted. Their answer was that their wires were not going to be able to cope if I exported entire production; nothing was said in case if I imported same amount... that it should melt down as well. Long story short, installers reduce a bit panels and reduce inverter.
When the FIT scheme started I asked an electrical engineer I knew well if the scheme was too good to be true. He told me “no but it can’t last”. We had converted some barns that we had on the farm and applied to the DNO (naively as it turned out) to
put a 16 amp string in for each barn.
We were restricted to systems less than 11kws in total unless we contributed to an infrastructure upgrade. We went with the reduced scheme but when up and running we couldn’t understand why the PVs cut out when we had full sun. We discovered that being in a rural area, rather than strengthening the network when new homes were added, the voltage was increased so that homes at the end of the line didn’t have a supply falling below the legal voltage. We on the other hand had a supply which exceeded the legal limit when the sun was at its best. Adjustments were made to correct the problem. We also completed our original scheme but not until the rules were changed on G99 some 2 to 3 years later- very close to the end of the FIT scheme
The original FIT was messed up from an economic perspective and your electrical engineer friend was quite right.
The FIT rate in the early days was set higher than the price per kWh the power company could charge for the electricity you generated for them which they sold on to consumers.
This meant that for every kWh of power you generated by solar and fed into the national grid, the power/electricity company sold it on and made a loss.
So who was paying for that loss? It was being covered by other electricity consumers and possibly government subsidies issued to the power companies.
Why should Joe Public incur a cost and that money be paid to consumers generating electricity from solar panels? It was obviously unfair, and the economics was completely upside down as far as the power companies go.
Having more array is obviously better for poorer weather days, but once you made the decision to have battery backup you can continue pushing power (at the 3.65KW rate) into the evening/night. You could let your battery system allow a discharge (say) to 80% whilst still maintaining enough for your own usage/backup. I also think that east/west arrays should be wired through separate charge controllers to allow for optimum MPPT.
I give my customers the choice, I do G99 applications for free.
I’ve had 3 turned down for nonsensical reasons with National Grid.
If you’re trying to use export limitation on a system above 3.68 then you still need a G99 unfortunately
It’s not a lie to oversize a system with a smaller inverter as long as it’s in the contract
We should be allowed 7kw as standard and less red tape
also why are we not integrating wind turbines for roofs - it does not make sense
The best option would be to raise the cap from 3 odd up to 5-6kw
You can have 32A feed-in (~7.3kW) on the G99 SGI-3 track which involves somebody checking if the mains can actually take that much power so it takes a few months to go through.
Your are spot on about the benefits of east and west orientated arrays as mine are split 60/40 to provide most power when needed, maximise on-site consumption and avoid export, although power drops off sharply during winter. (but still with some useful generation) An Eddi management unit diverts excess production to heat the water tank immersion for 9/10 months of the year and the electric car charger scoops up most of the rest. The arrays total just over 3 KW peak which meets my needs for most of the year and avoids significant export.
A tip to anyone considering investing in solar is to design your system around your daily pattern of usage where possible. A smart meter should generate a chart showing this if you have an online account with your energy provider.
Video next week on why you might want to export ;)
I also send excess power to my hot water tank & almost never use the gas boiler to heat the water tank.
@@robertharvey9698is the heat from hot water tank enough to heat your radiators as well?
Well explained. I had solar fitted in April. I am very pleased so far. I didn't go for a battery at the time, but the threat of power cuts makes me think I should have.. On the plus side Octopus are paying me 15p per kwh for export.
Battery that works in island mode and other things you can do will be on channel in a few weeks videos ready to go out.
@@NicolasRaimo looking forward to it, thank you
Adding a battery at a later date is easy to do. The Givenergy 9.4kwh battery(7.5 kwh usable) costs about £5000(with installation) from what I could find out in research(I have no intentions of buying one, was just curious, at least until maybes I win the lottery and can possibly buy my flat).
Over the many years I've had solar I've noticed that often the day starts cloudy and that burns off later to open up to clear skies. So I'd suggest that if your roof is only east and west and your budget is only for one side then you might want to give west preference.
I live in the US and was amazed at 3.68kw systems. Most systems here are 10kw or more. The reason they frown on us building larger arrays is it eats into their profits. Summers are very hot and winters can be very cold. So large arrays are needed.
We on average here in the UK use a lot less units per day. Also our heating tends to be done by has boilers and hot water 💧
Possibly you have larger roofs on average? The cost of scaffolding is also offputting here and its' fixed - you can't cheapen that part of it - all you can do to save a bit is have less panels.
@@NicolasRaimo any talk about replacing boilers with heat pumps
Next to nobody has aircon in the UK.
@@RichardABW if you get 15 to 30 days of 38 degree c weather, it comes in handly.
Very sensible suggestions. Interesting video thanks
I had the same issue with my recent solar install. Happy to put in a 4kw array on a south facing roof but refused a 6kw array as they said the DNO would reject. We already have a 4kw east facing array and adding the new array was very simple. I plan in the next year or two to add another 4wk array. I am fortunate to have lots of roof space on a few outbuildings plus some land, so I may look to do a ground mount array that tracks the sun. we will have a second EV by that point and possibly a third as my son is about to take his driving test. We also have a powerwall 2 with gateway, so even if the grid went down, we would not send energy to the grid, so the DNO should not object to our third array, or at least that is what I am hoping for. I agree with the points you made re DNOs as well. cheers J
Really interesting information … thank you.
Interesting as this is what happened to me, we got the basic system with battery storage and when I asked about more panels there was much sucking in of cheeks and comments about additional costs etc. I guess with solar being relatively new to most electrical companies they only want to fix the ‘quick fix’ set up….lesson learned
I am Australian and i had to think twice about comments regarding North facing rooves - that is the normal here of course because we are in the opposite hemisphere. We still get a benefit from South facing rooves in most of the country (Tasmania might be problematic)
Almost all solar systems installed today will have a requirement for battery storage by the customer due to the increase in electricity costs and the poor SEG payments. Once you add a battery to a system it will more than likely exceed 3.68kw hence the requirement for G99 approval. The G99 process isn’t that much of a deal tbh (not in wales anyway) it’s 1 form, circuit diagram including the inverter/s sizes and the ENA type tested information from the website. The last one took me around and hour to start and submit and approval was sent within 3 weeks.
i am confused there; KW is not KWh; inverter "means" KW, battery only "means" KWh, not KW.
We've got a South facing garden, 3 months ago we had a 6kw system fitted along with a 5kw battery. Today we have been generating 5.6kw, our battery is full, last month our gas and electric bill was £18. As long as you are savvy with the way you use it, it can work to your advantage. Our system cost £8k. The money saved and the decrease in direct debit, this has been used as over payments for our loan.
That’s an amazing price by the way
please,how many years till you break even?
The customer should always be made aware of all options.
That makes a lot of sense. Companies are eager to do what the government rewards them for, and are hesitant to do anything that the government makes challenging.
I was told by mulitple installers that my local DNO blanket refuse all domestic applications for larger inverters, I was basically told 99% will have spent the money for G99 application for nothing. I have 19 panels over E S and W roofs with a 3.6Kw inverter. Very occasionally in the middle of the summer it clips once the batteries are full so it's not really an issue but if I had a larger south roof it would be. One installer told me they even have difficulty getting industrial 3 phase installs approved over 5kw per phase in some areas. Seems to me if that's true the grid company are just avoiding having the number of solar installs build up to the point where they have to do infrastructure upgrades. The grid should be upgraded to cope with the max local roof capacity by the industry (which cost will be carried by all consumers not the individual Solar plant owner, if the locally generated solar power was properly priced into the kwh price everyone including people without solar would benefit, so why should the solar plant owners carry the full bill?) government should be subsidizing grid upgrades as well as part of net zero policy.
Great video mate, really informative and interesting break down
Glad you enjoyed it
love the video well presented, I'm struggling to get a decent Solar company but when I do I'll refer to your knowledge.
Thanks Bob and thanks for nice comment, have a great week!
Just do 4kw grid tie to sell or keep for future purposes and another 4kw of battery charging off grid for your immediate needs. I just picked up 12kw of amorphous silicone panels which are perfect for anyone in the northern hemisphere or who does not have a south facing roof or who does not adjust the angle for the time of year.
Useful info. Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
The answer to this is to campaign for the G99 to be for larger systems. If this situation is causing there to be less solar fitted, then it's completely counterproductive to expanding green energy use. Sounds to me like somebody somewhere wants to discourage people going completely off grid.
Seems that's coming in November this year rasing the limit to 32A from 16A (still requires g99 but 10 day fast track as long as install size not larger then 32A, witch I guess is 7.5KW ish)
Really useful video. We have just fitted an 8.5kW array. Five neighbours have solar and others are now interested in doing the same. I have just warned them that they may risk the bill or being refused anything over the 3.68kW threshold.
Pssst am doing a solar series currently my system review is at evnick.com/solar
It shouldn't matter what the total array is, just the size of inverter that is connected to the grid as feed in
So you could have a 4kw array with a 3.68KW inverter that is grid facing, and a 4KW array feeding a battery charger and grid isolated inverter, the 2 arrays would be totally separate, you may use the isolated one first to charge your car, or to power things during the winter, then use the grid attached one mainly as feed in (to offset grid use bills), or when the isolated one is low.
Note that these considerations don't apply if you're operating a purely off-grid system rather than grid-tied.
I am having a roof survey in a week, so I will be paying attention to the size of inverter that they are offering. Without this heads up I would have been completely clueless about this issue.
Wait, I downloaded the G99 form from the ENA test type register for my Solis 5kW inverter and made the DNO application online. Job done.
No deposit/cost.
My DNO is UK Power Networks.
We have 5KW south and 5KW split east/west. The east west array is good for the early morning and late evening, it adds an extra 1 hour way where energy is generated. One point, with more people having local battery storage, all in all there is actually LESS export and the local grid has less power being pulled during the day. However, most people with batteries do charge them during cheap rate, assuming they are on a cheap rate tariff. Never regretted going as large as possible on the solar, saving us a fortune.
interested in this idea, we have economy 10, old meter, so currently no SEG payments. The (costly) battery idea would be more appealing if I was convinced we would be able to get this E10 deal in the future.
@@vickypos6 I am not sure, but meter replacement and tariff is the choice of the consumer. I have seen nothing that states you must be on a specific import meter if you have solar and/or batteries. If you have an e10 setup, then I do not believe anything changes. I might be wrong mind !
It's all about the local wiring coping with the export to the grid.
In my case, I said "bollocks to that", installed my own panels and set the system to 0 export.
(I couldn't get an export tariff on a DIY install anyway, but for the pennies a kw they give it's just not worth all the expense of paying someone to do the install and give me the certificate required to export).
Not in the UK. My experience is with a 2kW inverter (because that is what we could afford at the time many years ago). A few years after install I checked with the manufacturer about what the OVER supply warranty was for the inverter. It was 100%. So I could install up to 4kW of panels. I actually added up to 3.8kW. There are times during the day when the inverter "flat lines" (can't use all the panel power). No problem. The rest of the day the system benefits from the EXTRA panels so whenever the sun shines the inverter is working as hard as possible within warranty limits.
There will be some way to detect the flat line or near the flat line and then start dumping the rest of your power to the hot water tank, that way you use most of your power. Not sure if you guys have hot water tanks, a lot of homes in the UK were built with them.
@@PF-gi9vv Flat line is at max inverter output so that power (above the flat line) has no where to go. Hot water is already direct solar (not electric).
@@Michael_CS615 I understand flat line, I don't think you get what I'm saying, theres always away to use the power produced by the panels even if the inverter is maxed out. A second inverter would be easiest for you.
I have panels on my North side and I live in Phx, Arizona. ( 29 degrees north ). During mid summer where the sun tracks directly overhead I get the same power draw as the south side. In winter it's only 40% of the southern side , but during winter I make way more than I use. So for me it makes sense during summer to have these panels since I can use up to 80kW per day ( I can generate up to 40kW ) so every bit of energy generated is used.
Great channel very informative, well done mate.
Thanks for a really nice comment made my day
Always wondered about this thanks
Happy to help!
Although I do not live in the UK, I would think that they should offer you the option to split off any additional power through a separate off-grid invertor to your own set of batteries (like a Bluettti E500 pro), which you can use for whatever you like. This would save the paperwork and you still get to use the power
Not sure about other tariffs, but mine allows full 100% usage of all electricity produced AND FULL payment for all generated power. The big issue is that the amount generated would have to be monitored and only that amount used to charge the batteries, otherwise grid energy would be used to charge the battery when solar output drops.
There are regulations about how much solar you can connect to the grid. If it’s not connected to the grid you can legally fit as much as you like.
@@hughmarcus1 It would make sense to leave your grid connected solar without a battery and have a battery for your off-grid solar. You can then use that excess power for charging EVs or have a separate heat pump.
In the UK, if you have a MCS heat pump, it means you can't have cooling in the summer (you can probably hack it post-install but not technically legal). If you had one of those, it would make sense to get a second heat pump (or several mini-splits) and have cooling in the summer and some additional heating in the colder months. Obviously the additional heat pump(s) would be connected to the off-grid setup. You could also heat a hot water tank using the off-grid solar/battery which would directly offset your on-grid costs you would have spent for heating water. Finally, such a setup means that you would have backup heating in case your primary heat source broke down and you could continue having heat during an outage (in the UK, you can't use your solar/battery in a power outage). So one more reason to remove your gas meter, save on paying standing charges and can properly insulate your wall where the meter was!
Living in San Diego, is see many undersized units around. I think this is primarily because the electric company wants thier users to pay at least a moderate amount of money to them. The best way to go is to use panels which have inverters attached. Then you can do a basic install, get your approval, then add more panels yourself as needed. This has helped, as our electrical needs rose dramatically with addition of two electric cars.
Weird logic on SDGE. I give supply their grid 7KW, they sell it to someone else and still get a Meter/distribution charge from both of us. That is one of the reason to separate the consumption from the Meter-distribution charges that are now common on utility bills.
In Estonia the line between commercial solar farm and micro-producer is at 15kw.
I have just mounted the panels on a trailer, and they can be directed to the sun by hand or automatically,just use a teeth ring on the trailer, and you dont have to turn the trailer itself.I m off grid,so I do as I please since 2017.
Surely you only need these forms etc if you intend to feed into the grid. If your 'off grid' or have no intention of selling/feeding into the grid via a smart meter and have interlock switching no forms/permits etc are needed.
Great knowledge ,all makes sense 👏, can you fill a G98 form yourself and if so what info do uou need to fill application form .
Just changed my mind and had more Panels fitted(10 +a extra 4), luckily they installed a 5kw Inverter has I said I wanted more panels my DNO though is taking forever to get approved
Interestingly, I never had a problem with the three companies I contacted to quote a 10KW solar system. But that may have been down to our on-site microdistillery and that we have a 120amp fuse and cable to the grid that supplies both the house and distillery. I thought they may have been hesitant to have that much going back to the grid but they and Western Power were fine with it too. Could also be due to split inveters, one to the house, one to the distillery and heating elements don't care if they get AC or DC.
If you had 3 phase then it was a 3x3.3KW system not 10KW per phase (still falls under g98) anything upto 12kw on 3phase isn't complicated to get approval no different then a 4kw single phase
Hi, first off great video you have answered some questions that have been bothering me since I had our panels fitted, I have an 18 panel 6.6 Kw array and a 7/8 Kw inverter and 9.6 Kw of battery capacity plus I export to the grid at 15 pence a kilowatt to Octopus energy, it has been so good over the last 17 months that apart from Dec/Jan/Feb just gone octopus have had to pay me every month ok in Sep/Oct/Nov it was as little as £10 /15 but Apr/May/ June this and last year it was £75/80/100 and all the cooler months are in-between and all this from my roof which faces a few degrees south of east. I am very pleased with what Greenscape did for me and yes they did do a G99 and your right that is a BIG form I have a copy of mine that will make your eyes water!! plus of course you get all your daily electricity from the panels for free and the battery lasts well into the next day. My question to you sir is would it be posible to put more panels on the west side of the house or would it be too much for the inverter or could you run a completely separate array which might be too expensive! what do you think great site take care regards Mike
What I have found, and you have picked up on, is that the old cable infrastructure is not up to the job and can't keep up with the greening. Also they would like to keep selling you electricity.
We have 9.2 KW on an east / west array and at the limit the DNO will permit. However, my installer tells me they could install more panels but with a limiter to restrict the export to grid. Having two EV's, batteries and water heating this is a very tempting option.
It's not the cable infrastructure, it's the Transformer Size at the final distribution Substation!
@@stuartwilliams8663 Many thanks for the information Stuart. Good to get the real picture. Information I had came from a guy at an exhibition I attended.
I’m getting North facing panels :shrug: PV-GIS suggests about half the equivalent output of south, but my south roof already has some old panels I can’t move/change so any extra is helpful
Great watch!
Not doing any of these but was interested and you explained it well/ classic England too much red tape
One of my neighbours fitted his own solar system to the roof of his flat roofed garage, the council made him take it down because it wasn't installed by an approved installer, he wasn't feeding into the grid, he owned his house, but because he didn't use an installation company that's probably owned by corrupt officials, he had to take it all down
What country?
@@pookachu64 UK
unfoKKingbelievable!!
Probably was a council house (he likely didn't actually own the house) so can't just change the structure of the house without permission, on your own personal house if your roof is covered in tiles or solar not council job (power company if you didn't have aprovel if connected to grid)
@@leexgx I was about to say the same, if you own your own home, it's not covered by planning unless it's covered by some sort of protection order or listed building
Of course solar evacuated tubes have to be connected via an accredited installer to connect it up
In the USA and with Texas Homeowners’ insurance, if your panel array generates MORE POWER THAN YOU USE IN A CALENDAR YEAR, State Farm Insurance will not cover your solar panels in the event of storm damage. Agent said they audit your YEAR’S POWER BILLS IF YOU ARE GRID TIED BEFORE PAYING OUT A PENNY.
That's crazy! I can't believe how burocratic the UK has become. I just installed a 5.4kWh system in Spain and the process is just as simple as for the 3.68kWh system in the UK. Spain is a very burocratic country already, but below 10kWh is considered "home use".
If your Power Generating Module is less than 50 kW three-phase or 17 kW single-phase, then you can use a simplified application form (Annex A.1 of EREC G99)
Just been informed about this but I believe not till November and still silly its needed for small arrays of 5kw
Rooftop solar actually suffers in Australia as well although you're usually just limited by how much you can export vs total system power 10KW is pretty common in New installs now our grid is massive and kinda old so there are major transmission issues as well. Still you can get pretty good generation even in winter here so not complaining.
I fitted more batteries rather than more panels. Initial 12 times 390W panels with 4.8kwh battery (2 2.4kwh) and 5kw inverter. Adding another 2.4 kwh battery plus EV charger. It runs a 4 bedroom house with 2 power hungry teenagers. 😁
Battery is a must. The perfect solution is seperate solar and battery for each room.
Do you still have to do a DNO notification if it's off grid and not feeding back into the grid?
Definitely a concern as it affects innovation in the space. Defo need that G99 fast tracked and available to all now that batteries are becoming common fit
It's madness to sell back to the grid, it makes no sense at these prices. Much much better to have large battery capacity, new battery tech coming in that is A) Cheaper B) More energy dense
In UK, do you have to inform DNO if you are not exporting to grid and have an off grid inverter fitted? It seems strange if yes because most off grid inverters won't burden the grid even if its just used as a charger input on a relatively small array with some basic storage. Now I'd be interested in knowing loop holes, like what happens if you later upgrade to say 2 seperate off grid systems, each less than 4kw as some have a parallel output functions
The limitations are engineering not admin. Any network hates solar - it provides maximum power when the network doesn't need it it & none when it does.
I think this is going to affect house design in future. Instead of apex roofs we might have houses being built with pent roofs
I asked my installer to apply for a 5kW inverter and 8kWp panels via G99. They agreed, I had to pay 25% deposit but it only took 4 weeks which was less than the lead time for the panels.
I’m glad I did, having more panels means in winter I get more electricity towards my daily needs and in summer it can still cope with the full output and I can feed the excess into a water heater and electric car during the peak generation periods.
You adding batteries? Have you seen my series on battues or what's the best energy deal to be on?
@@NicolasRaimo
Yes I’ve got 10kWh of batteries
I saw your video on deals thank you.
I’m still waiting for EDF to install a smart meter before I switch to Octopus Flux. They’re really taking a long time despite lots of phone calls which is frustrating but I understand it’s better to get the existing supplier to install the meter and then switch?
@@BAC_Mono it’s likely quicker but nothing stoping you moving and asking octopus to do it you could try an email and ask time scale for install with them if you switched? Please consider using my referral link if you do switch it really helps me carry on making videos
@@NicolasRaimo thanks I’ll give that a try, good idea.
Great channel by the way, it’s really helpful advice.
@@BAC_Mono thanks a lot means a lot! I have a huge back catalogue of videos and some great interviews on their also including one with Greg Jackson ceo of octopus energy
I got a replacement inverter after 10 years. I discussed extra panels and was advised not worth it. He did not mention G98 or G99 forms. I don't know if anyone in street has panels. But warning about paying for whole street was important. It shows UK still doesn't understand the benefits for our economy.
Someone has to pay to upgrade the street cable it would make more sense if this was a levy on everyones bill for so many years to pay it off and this would benefit everyone
I’m planning on about 12KW at my house. I’m glad I don’t live in the UK! In the US, we leave rules too, but nothing in my area that says I can’t put in a 12KW system.
We have 32 solar panels on the roof, a battery storage system and an electric car. We NEVER draw power from the grid at peak tariffs and are currently paying 7.5 pence per unit at night. About 35% of the car charging is from solar and this means the car is costing is approximately 1.5 pence per mile. We are very satisfied with the installation - the only annoyance was the 20% VAT on all the components.
VAT shouldn't be 20% if solar install was done by an approved installer and the battery also gets reduced VAT
I have 6 panels and 12 panels feeding my inverter 3.6kw . I have one 6.5kw battery connected. Depending on sun and use it gets to 100% early afternoon.
I then connect a second 6.5 kw battery to charge , if it’s low, taking off the 1st battery. In the summer the battery lasts all night and is about 5-10% left. If the next day is cloudy I can put on my second 6.5kw battery to run appliances . Dishwasher, washing machine, etc don’t all consume electric at the same time so my use from the grid is about 0-1 unit a day.
Does this still apply if not exporting to the grid? I want grid tie but just have the grid as a backup in case the solar fails for some reason.
nice video.... i have 4k on a 3.69k inverter on the old feed in tariff and a 3k on a 3.68k inverter battery system.... it's the inverter that the D.N.O are interested in
Is this G99 only applicable if you want to export to the grid. What if you want to fit your own array, inverter(s) and battery pack and not connect to the grid.
what happens if you go completely off grid do you still have to fill in forms
Not sure who told you about upgrading the street cables, that would mean you are providing more power into the system than the DNO can. Very unlikely in the extreme for domestic solar. It would men every property putting out on to the system 70 or more amps. Even then the network will carry a 100% overload for an hour or so and a 50% for a day ish etc.. If the network is already at capacity the DNO would be glad as it reduces the strain.
Now with solar farms that could happen to the incoming supply to the farm so dedicated cables will be installed. The 3.8KW is the point were a domestic supply becomes a commercial supply and the DNO would be looking to provide a 3 phase service.
But you would have to be producing 3.8 KW over and above your domestic usage so 5, 6, 7 KW etc production. Thats a lot of panels.
PS you can't get panels of the same size that have significant power outputs...
There is no reason you cant split your solar either, Disconnect essential service like fridge, heating, freezer, lights from the DNO supply and connect to a separate solar supplied circuit with batteries.
Once you start thinking of making money off solar you are by default a commercial supplier, so pay up like all other businesses have to.
I agree - I want the option. Currently I won’t have solar panels as it won’t/can’t supply all my electricity. In fact it’s a dismal percentage so I can’t see the point in it.
Video coming up on my channel for battery only system and payback!
I did my own admin for G99/G100. It isn't difficult, but I did have to spend time to learn how to do it. I had a decision within 2 weeks from the DNO.
Since this video fast track came in
@@NicolasRaimo Yes, that makes sense. The forms were much longer and more complicated before.
In Luxembourg I installed an 85 panel 19.5Kwp south facing array on my house 10 years ago. No problem. Here, the break between domestic and commercial installations is 30KWp. Has been for many years.
Sadly for me, if I upgrade my 230W panels (near the best output at the time) to more modern 440W panels I would be at 37KWp. I might need to put the 7 extra to batteries.
can you tell us the numbers, aside from the eventual satisfaction part, did you save any money with that setup, are you and the "shareholders" happy? how much spent,alltogether? why do you need to upgrade the panels? thanks
@@josepeixoto3384 "your mileage may vary". Payback depends on the equipment price, install price, the electricity price and the amount of sun IN YOUR LOCATION.
For me, the install was (all in Euro) 50k, minus a 10K grant. I generate about 21MWH a year and sell ALL of it to the grid. This gives me about 8K a year of income, so payback was 5 years. My consumption bill is about 5MWH a year (just under 2K). I had one of my two 10K inverters changed under warranty. I also had a short circuit on the roof which was fixed under warranty (bad cable). I'm super happy. The panels still work well after 10 years and are guaranteed 80% efficient after 25. So no maintenance costs in 10 years.
The reason to upgrade the panels is that efficiency has improved so much in 10 years. My 230W panels were about as good as I could get at the time. Now 440W panels are possible. It would allow me to generate more. I'm waiting for an EV and I might soon change my heating to a ground source heat pump. Add a second EV later and I will be consuming more than my winter daily production.
I'm considering a new array in my garden, charging 48V batteries, then through an inverter to charge my car. Stand alone, no metering. Perhaps adding a 48v wind turbine later.
I had a 6kWh battery fitted in August. It had taken more than 9 months for my G99 to be approved.
I have 3.4kW of solar. The most I could fit on the roof at the time (7yrs ago). The inverter can handle 4.5kW.
My September electricity bill was half the year before. October is looking the same.
Over the year I generate more than I use.
Overall I'm pleased with the setup. Not so pleased with the wasted Summer.
How's this summer
We have a rule here made by the utility companies over here in the USA where if you go over 10 kw you are classified as a commercial system and t hey impose a monthly fee on you. This is their way of telling you that they do not want any thing that will horn in on their profits.
That all states?
As you said they need a new form for larger arrays on houses that aren't solar farms.
I've just stumble across your channel. This video is very informative. What a complete mess this whole solar business is. I wonder what the smallest commercial solar array is in this country? I would imagine it's magnitudes larger than private dwellings? So it's essentially just more red-tape and money not to mention being off putting for both home owner and indeed installers.
Yes. Should be automatically allowed if the panels are confined to a domestic roof.
DNO also say this when you have a battery i.e. solar generator + battery generator and they look at if they both export at the same time, in reality installing a battery should reduce export. You can have grid export limitation with solar edge invertors, or devices which divert spare solar panel.
This is only if it's an AC coupled battery system like a power wall.
You could have led with, the max size of solar setup a small firm will install is limited by the Grid authority planning process. 4KW is an easy G99 form, anything bigger and you need a tome filled in AND risk getting turned down. Even if you have money and a huge roof. Just like construction planning.
HOWEVER - you can limit your grid feed in to 4KW, and keep the rest for a large battery pack
So if I do a self build I'd be better with solar & wind totally off grid using battery storage?
Sounds like you need to speak to Parliament and tell them it isn' 1999 any more.
Am I correct in saying that if the power from my solar array via inverter is not connected to the national grid then I can generate as much power as I like and the national grid operator does not need to be informed?
Should be an intermediate form between tiny array (G98) and huge solar farm (G99) for arrays upto say 10-20kw. I agree everyone should be charged a small amount to upgrade the grid not just the last person
G99 fast track now open but many installers seem unaware of it
I have 5kws of solar on my boat, its flat mounted so not as efficient as a pitched roof, however with batteries and DC rated switches I can get all the hot water I need in summer plus never need to start the generator in winter. My boat is also electric drive so my fuel bills are virtually removed for cruising. Currently I have 2 lifepo4 battery banks one for drive one for domestic, shortly these will be merged and I will have 46kwh of storage for either drive or domestic use, should be enough for a few days. The advantage of boat life Is DNOs arnt involved
Does any of this still apply if you do off grid?
They suppliers get the money from the generation and some want to charge for the groundwork. Good business to be in.😊
In terms of the east south west debate, I think I would prefer an East West roof now for self -consumption because it flattens the production spike out over the day. The networks also prefer east west because otherwise they also get a peak at midday when consumption is low.
If I had batteries then south (most total production) would make sense.
So you would rather spend thousands on an installation and install it in such a way as to benefit the DNO?
If I have spent thousands on an installation, I'm going to install it in the way that generates the maximum amount of kWh.
Why would I do otherwise?
And just to clarify something, the most production of electricity from the panels does not depend on whether you have batteries. It depends on angle of elevation and compass bearing of the panels.
@@deang5622 I think you missed my point. Maybe thats why you jumped down my throat.
I can also clarify something - I built my house 10 years ago with a mono-pitched roof at 34 degrees, facing south. The whole purpose of the roof design was to get maximum annual production. I have 85 panels on it and a fixed 15 year feed in tariff at 32 pence per KWH. I generate about 21MWH per year.
So I've done exactly what you said I should do.
In 5 years time when I come off the FIT I have to move to a self-consumption model (use what I can and the rest goes to the grid for pennies). However, due to my South facing configuration I get a huge peak midday and not much in the morning and evening when I have my highest household loads. My EV is also not at home at midday during the week. So that midday peak is hard to consume myself.
So, in my situation I would need batteries to store that midday peak and use it at times of demand. With batteries, again maximum output is best as long as you can store it all - I agree with you.
My point was, if I did not have batteries and had a contract geared towards self consumption then my south facing roof is not optimal for me. An east west config would give me more power morning and evening when I could use it myself.
That config also helps the grid solve the duck curve. But it sounds like you see that as someone else's problem.
The bit missing is that the sheer cost of installing all of this will take you around 23 years to really get the money back, but by then you have been through 2 inverters and a replacement battery pack
Thank you, thank you, finally somebody making sense;
*that* bit bites!!!
25 year warranty on a SolarEdge inverter costs about £200-300.
So that’s on top of the high installation cost so when do you actually get your money back, I was to,d I would be negative £1400 so other than the saving the planet comments what’s the point
@@uksupporter8867 If you don't pay over the odds, and you pick the right kit for your use and get on the right tariffs, payback is easily under 10 years, more like 7 or so.