I’m unlikely to watch any livestreams so this was a great way to share the content so I could timeshift and watch it at a time that worked for me. Fun video, thank you!
I watched almost the whole stream, and I have to say that this video is really well done and very well edited! Hope you do more videos like this in the future. *_P.S. I also found it super funny that I could actually see some chat messages that I sent in the video at _**_0:41_**_ and _**_0:46_*
Your video brings back memories. Back in the 80’s I had a side gig that I would call “Folding floppies”. What I was doing was taking the 8” floppies and coping to the customers 5 ¼” disks. There were a few different versions of 5 ¼ disk formats out there at the time, as you can see, by this video. The trick was to send a version of X-Copy receive only (as it was smaller) to the host machine and then send the full version of X-Copy to do the actual transfers. This was all done over the serial connections. What took the time was to work out the serial port set up for the host machine (both hardware and software). Mind you, I have not touched CPM in decades, [update (05/06/2024): after rereading the CPM manual; you use the PIP command for the *.ASM transfers] Now about your problem, you will still have to set up X-Copy and send it to your CPM machine. You used the smaller X-Copy receive only because it’s smaller and you can capture it with the CPM’s PIP command. After you get it saved on your CPM system, you assemble it and use it to send the full version over. Now, there is a full version of X-Copy that will run on MS-DOS, and when you get all of that running, you just copy what you need between machines. The trick is to send the X-Copy receive only as a text file and assemble it on your host computer. I am assuming that there is a full set of files for CPM on the host machine.
As a fellow preservationist and developer, I can't get enough of your content. Thank you so much for capturing your adventures (and crediting your music which you have a talent for appropriately selecting)
Awesome video. Always wanted to do some disk dumping and data preservation myself, but never had anything worth keeping. My biggest fear of investing into a retro platform is that I wouldn't have anything to run on it, especially if it wasn't for the people behind big preservation projects. My second issue with retro computing is I'm poor :(
Wordstar 3.x on the Kaypro 2 the first word processor I used in the early 80s (my early teens). My dad had it at work, along with a dot matrix and impact printer. Once I used it for school papers, I never wanted to hand write papers or use a typewriter again.
Didn't have 5 hours for the livestream, but this condensation was just right. [eyeing future projects shelf, drools] Corel WordPerfect for linux... well, almost. PhotoPaint is my killer app I can't live without. But as I hear it, Corel's effort there won't run on modern linux.
my opinions is that i want to hear the FDD and in general all the Pc sounds, i am wierdo and that soundscape PC from 90s makes is one of the best nostalgic trips i get. from monitor crackling to life (requires cathode ray tube monitor), FDD POST, PC speaker going through POST of the MB all the way up to OS starting sounds .) Outside of that the effort put in is quire heroic and preservation is very much appreciated for any and all software.
Yikes, I have thankfully never seen so much of the oxide wear off that I could see through a floppy. Wordstar was one of the first programs I used on my DOS PC in the ...mid eighties?
Bill Herd has stated that the CP/M compatibility was basically forced by Commodore management, and he also talked about how bad the VDC chip (80 cols) actually is to the point that Commodore actually had to upgrade it for the 128D.
Could the isopropyl alcohol have damaged the disk? It can be used to remove some adhesives, so it may have contributed to the disk shredding itself in the drive.
Citation needed? Quite a few people pointed me at using IPA to clean the disk cookie to remove mold and other crud, and my own searches pointed me in this direction.
@@Reziac Not all poor conditions are created equal. I've worked a lot with old tapes and 35 mm film and generally some older tapes are really full of "debris" in lack of a better word. It collects on the tape head and I assume it is dust or oxidation that has collected over the years, maybe due to a manufacturing "defect" as it is not consistent. What could happen is if the same kind of "debris" built up on a floppy disk it might act like "sand" as it digs into the cushion within the disk envelope as the disk turns. Of course this is built on the assumption that cassette tape and floppy disk is quite similar technologies which I believe they are. I would absolutely think that this is the more plausible explanation as the damage looks mechanical and not chemical. Either the debris shifted around inside the envelope or it collected on the read head which then pushed it around like a ploughshare. On a cassette tape this damage would occur perpendicular to the magnetic field if the tape is wound too tightly - exactly the same happens with 35 mm film as some dust is almost always present on a reel (this would appear as vertical scratches on the auditorium screen).
Great Video! Here on YT I am u able to find a good video on how to get cp/m images to a real floppy disk other than to copy it under ms-dos via a special cp/m disk copy program. I am very interested in the sd2iec hack, that let's you run cp/m disks on a C128. A video, on how tho modify the sd2iec would be really cool! Keep up your awesome work!
So with the SD2IEC, it's just normal Commodore GCR disks. The MFM functionality of a real 1571 doesn't work. A real 1571 drive can real *most* CP/M disk formats, and there are add-on utilities that can basically read all of them. A regular PC disk drive *should* be able toread any non-Commodore CP/M disk. www.moria.de/~michael/cpmtools/ can pull the files off.
There's a lot of reaosns why you can't copy/paste but short version: 1. Copy and pasting from a disk doesn't preserve file metadata, disk structure, undeleted data, or boot sectors. 2. Windows will end up modifying disks you read (I'm using Linux, but you should never use floppies without write protection enabled). 2. These are magnetic flux dumps, not a USB drive 3. Copy protection information will be lost, 4. It's impossible to truly recreate the original media from just a bunch of files.
... that sounds like an exceptionally painful combo, although the Speccy is likely faster since the Z80 on the 128 runs at effectively 1/2 to 1/4 its rated clock speed.
In regards to video capture on older devices, your best bet might be an Open Source Scan Converter. There's a review for one on Short Circuit: ruclips.net/video/5IyzPJ0jtpA/видео.html
Direct link to the Community post: ruclips.net/user/postUgyXie23sqEP7uvSgpN4AaABCQ
I’m unlikely to watch any livestreams so this was a great way to share the content so I could timeshift and watch it at a time that worked for me. Fun video, thank you!
I watched almost the whole stream, and I have to say that this video is really well done and very well edited! Hope you do more videos like this in the future.
*_P.S. I also found it super funny that I could actually see some chat messages that I sent in the video at _**_0:41_**_ and _**_0:46_*
Recursion, see Recursion
@@NCommander lol
Your video brings back memories.
Back in the 80’s I had a side gig that I would call “Folding floppies”. What I was doing was taking the 8” floppies and coping to the customers 5 ¼” disks. There were a few different versions of 5 ¼ disk formats out there at the time, as you can see, by this video.
The trick was to send a version of X-Copy receive only (as it was smaller) to the host machine and then send the full version of X-Copy to do the actual transfers. This was all done over the serial connections. What took the time was to work out the serial port set up for the host machine (both hardware and software).
Mind you, I have not touched CPM in decades,
[update (05/06/2024): after rereading the CPM manual; you use the PIP command for the *.ASM transfers]
Now about your problem, you will still have to set up X-Copy and send it to your CPM machine. You used the smaller X-Copy receive only because it’s smaller and you can capture it with the CPM’s PIP command. After you get it saved on your CPM system, you assemble it and use it to send the full version over.
Now, there is a full version of X-Copy that will run on MS-DOS, and when you get all of that running, you just copy what you need between machines.
The trick is to send the X-Copy receive only as a text file and assemble it on your host computer. I am assuming that there is a full set of files for CPM on the host machine.
As a fellow preservationist and developer, I can't get enough of your content. Thank you so much for capturing your adventures (and crediting your music which you have a talent for appropriately selecting)
Great vid once again!
I'm sure you're aware that Jason Scott is probably willing to help in case you run into any preservation issues or question.
I didn't know about the 1571 drive being so flexible. Though I don't one or any c64 stuff. Decided to collect for apple II instead.
They're a massive step up over the 1541, but aside from the larger capacity, a C64 can't use most of the advanced features.
Awesome video. Always wanted to do some disk dumping and data preservation myself, but never had anything worth keeping. My biggest fear of investing into a retro platform is that I wouldn't have anything to run on it, especially if it wasn't for the people behind big preservation projects. My second issue with retro computing is I'm poor :(
Neat - have never seen double DESTINY/high DESTINY disks/drives.
I'd love to see "In Real Time" episodes on OS/2, Slackware, and LFS
Wordstar 3.x on the Kaypro 2 the first word processor I used in the early 80s (my early teens). My dad had it at work, along with a dot matrix and impact printer. Once I used it for school papers, I never wanted to hand write papers or use a typewriter again.
"Without going into too much detail" - no no no, this is a nerd channel. I INSIST you go into too much detail.
In this case, the lack of detail is to prevent this video from taking weeks to exist and defeat the point of "realtime".
@@NCommander Consider it an idea for a future video then
So it's more than just the Copy command?
Didn't have 5 hours for the livestream, but this condensation was just right.
[eyeing future projects shelf, drools] Corel WordPerfect for linux... well, almost. PhotoPaint is my killer app I can't live without. But as I hear it, Corel's effort there won't run on modern linux.
You also underestimate how much I'm willing to torture myself for content.
@@NCommander I noticed the bloody nose and blistered fingers.... I'm willing to bet you can get old Corel products running on modern linux. :D
@@NCommander Your comment has me chuckling. I've never seen WP for Linux; I'm looking forward to your tortu--er, efforts!
Interesting! Already gave a heads up to my nerdy friends and keeping an eye on the channel. Thanks for the great content!
This is great. I subbed man. Excellent content.
NCommander: scanlime edition. Love it. Watched the live stream. Great content.
Thanks, although what is scanlime? I never heard the term before.
my opinions is that i want to hear the FDD and in general all the Pc sounds, i am wierdo and that soundscape PC from 90s makes is one of the best nostalgic trips i get.
from monitor crackling to life (requires cathode ray tube monitor), FDD POST, PC speaker going through POST of the MB all the way up to OS starting sounds .)
Outside of that the effort put in is quire heroic and preservation is very much appreciated for any and all software.
Yikes, I have thankfully never seen so much of the oxide wear off that I could see through a floppy. Wordstar was one of the first programs I used on my DOS PC in the ...mid eighties?
i wonder how much of it is due to the pressure of the plastic page holder and a closed binder, squashing things
9:17, don't let Bil Herd hear you. :D
Bill Herd has stated that the CP/M compatibility was basically forced by Commodore management, and he also talked about how bad the VDC chip (80 cols) actually is to the point that Commodore actually had to upgrade it for the 128D.
our teacher was a fan of WordStar in 1996... he used that for Hebrew if I remember right
Could the isopropyl alcohol have damaged the disk? It can be used to remove some adhesives, so it may have contributed to the disk shredding itself in the drive.
That's a great how-to video on how to destroy floppies with isopropanol.
Citation needed?
Quite a few people pointed me at using IPA to clean the disk cookie to remove mold and other crud, and my own searches pointed me in this direction.
Thank you: you are the historian Yuval Noah Harari of the geeks
I know nothing about this but is cleaning the degrading disc surface with isopropanol what destroyed it and made it rub off in the new jacket?
That's sure what it looked like. I'd never seen that and I've had floppies dating to ~1980, stored under poor conditions, that were still good.
I'm not sure. I'm getting comments that the IPA may of damaged it, or it may not have, I don't know for sure. I may have to test it.
@@Reziac Not all poor conditions are created equal. I've worked a lot with old tapes and 35 mm film and generally some older tapes are really full of "debris" in lack of a better word. It collects on the tape head and I assume it is dust or oxidation that has collected over the years, maybe due to a manufacturing "defect" as it is not consistent.
What could happen is if the same kind of "debris" built up on a floppy disk it might act like "sand" as it digs into the cushion within the disk envelope as the disk turns. Of course this is built on the assumption that cassette tape and floppy disk is quite similar technologies which I believe they are.
I would absolutely think that this is the more plausible explanation as the damage looks mechanical and not chemical. Either the debris shifted around inside the envelope or it collected on the read head which then pushed it around like a ploughshare. On a cassette tape this damage would occur perpendicular to the magnetic field if the tape is wound too tightly - exactly the same happens with 35 mm film as some dust is almost always present on a reel (this would appear as vertical scratches on the auditorium screen).
I remember WordStar and all those keyboard commands.... and how it sadly lost the game when Windows arrived ...like WordPerfect
Great Video!
Here on YT I am u able to find a good video on how to get cp/m images to a real floppy disk other than to copy it under ms-dos via a special cp/m disk copy program. I am very interested in the sd2iec hack, that let's you run cp/m disks on a C128. A video, on how tho modify the sd2iec would be really cool! Keep up your awesome work!
So with the SD2IEC, it's just normal Commodore GCR disks. The MFM functionality of a real 1571 doesn't work. A real 1571 drive can real *most* CP/M disk formats, and there are add-on utilities that can basically read all of them.
A regular PC disk drive *should* be able toread any non-Commodore CP/M disk. www.moria.de/~michael/cpmtools/ can pull the files off.
@@NCommander Thank you! You Rock! 🤘🏻🖖🏻
Can you do a how-to video on floppy disk dumping and converting to actual files? Why can't you just copy and paste as usual?
There's a lot of reaosns why you can't copy/paste but short version:
1. Copy and pasting from a disk doesn't preserve file metadata, disk structure, undeleted data, or boot sectors.
2. Windows will end up modifying disks you read (I'm using Linux, but you should never use floppies without write protection enabled).
2. These are magnetic flux dumps, not a USB drive
3. Copy protection information will be lost,
4. It's impossible to truly recreate the original media from just a bunch of files.
I bet the c128 makes for a better cp/m machine than the Speccy +2A
... that sounds like an exceptionally painful combo, although the Speccy is likely faster since the Z80 on the 128 runs at effectively 1/2 to 1/4 its rated clock speed.
Would you upload your WordStar 4 files/images to archive.org?
I've already done so.
@@NCommander Thank you! Now I found it. :)
Word star hip hop
In regards to video capture on older devices, your best bet might be an Open Source Scan Converter. There's a review for one on Short Circuit: ruclips.net/video/5IyzPJ0jtpA/видео.html
Destiny