When I die to Spy: "Ahhh, why nobody is spy-checking/Why didn't I look around more/Man, that Spy is fucking good" When I die to Sniper: "Thanks man, next time I'll try to not show my face for more than 0.5 seconds"
Though I haven't played TF2 very much I have noticed spy usually can get the most value on his first life when the enemy doesn't know you've switched to him yet. He gets his value at a critical moment then your often better switching out to a more general purpose class like scout or soldier.
The problem with sniper is the MOMENT you encounter one, they are in control of the entire interaction. Unless you are also playing sniper, they can kill you at essentially any time. If they put enough time into the game, and get good enough at aiming, they can completely dominate any sightline they have access to (and depending on the map, this could account for 70-100% of a control point)
you forget they have to have better aim skill than your dodging skill. dont represent how op a class is by analyzing theoretical maximum skill. its not realistic so it doesnt matter.
@@Suddsy11037 How do you dodge a hitscan weapon? The most you can do is a spastic rain dance and pray they miss. They still control the entire interaction.
@@zebraforceone to pressure them as anything other than sniper you either have to have tomislav kritz or are playing soldier unless they are rather close. 7 out of the 9 classes can barely do anything to a perched sniper. If they are playing passively (which most snipers are) they can just eat you from any distance no matter how much chip damage you chuck at them. If they arent shit or using the classic rushing up on them only works mainly in a vacuum on any map with long sightlines as there is always a extremely high chance of their team intervening either killing you or giving the sniper enough time to either retreat or merc you. Now in casual you probably will be able to get em eventually but the fact is also thats minutes of game time taken up just trying to stop 1 player from holding down an entire choke mainly through threat with little to no threat to themself (and also a 60% chance they instakill any spy or scout that does actually sneak up on them with a kukri random crit but thats outside of the arguement)
The best play as Spy I had ever done is get close to an enemy sniper, disguise as a heavy on my team, and chase the sniper. He thought he was gonna die so he ran away and off a cliff.
How nobody mentioned the 25 shots one after another is beyond me. There's no reload break, it's just 25 shots back to back to back to back which makes the sightlines a pain to navigate. At least the huntsman only has 12 arrows.
Right! I've always thought that was weird. The magazine on the Sniper Rifle is tiny, yet it fits 25 full-powered rifle cartridges like it's magic! Irl, snipers usually use tiny 3 to 10 round magazines (plus one in the chamber), because small mags are less cumbersome when you have to shoot from a prone position, plus they are much more reliable than greater capacity magazines. The only rifle where it makes sense is with the Classic, since it's (sort of) based on the G36 assault rifle, which has proprietary translucent 5.56x45NATO magazines, with a capacity for 30 rounds, but obviously the G36 is a select fire assault rifle, not a precision bolt-action rifle. On top of that, Sniper works the bolt pretty quickly... much quicker than regular people. Conventional bolt-action guns are known for their reliability, accuracy, light weight and simplicity, but they are not as speedy as lever/pump-action guns in operation! So, basically, it makes no sense that Sniper can shoot both as fast as he can, and for as long as he can without running out. In my opinion, I think he should use the heaviest duty, smallest capacity, most slow to reload action possible for a rifle: breach-loader. I would arm Sniper with a rifle like the Martini-Henry, which can only fire a single (quite powerful) cartridge before having to engage in a lengthy reload. Such ammo is heavy, so Sniper would only wear eight of such cartridges in a bandolier. Damage, range, zoom level and headshots are the same. How about that?
Shounic made a video where he made sniper have a laser pointing at wherever his line of sight is, which other plays could also see. I think this can make sniper a lot less frustrating to fight, since you can interact with him more. In the video, the beam was always active regardless of what sniper was doing. I would make it so that the beam only becomes active when the sniper is aiming and I would make it so that the more the sniper rifle is charged, the brighter the laser is, so players know that they are getting themselves into when they decide to peak a sightline.
The main issue is quickscoping being too fast, so if you dont see a beam until you peek, some snipers literally pull headshots within less than half a second which is impossible to react to
@@mauroghen the time it takes to scope in and register that you can headshot is only about 50ms faster than the average reaction time. so... it's not impossible, but it can be hard for newer gamers who don't halve heightened reaction times. for example, I'm able to dodge a headshot when I see a sniper scope in, so I'm sure the laser beam will make it quite a bit easier to do just that.
For real, I've played against and with Snipers who could quick scope you faster than a scout could 2 shot you from the same range as the scout. Snipers that can literally delete you from mere feet away in seconds.
@@adrianmarc5430 Not every soldier main can use the beggar's bazooka to jump into a sentry nest and market garden a sniper like our guy just did in the video, but those that can aren't rewarded nearly as much as a highly skilled sniper main, who's sitting next to a dispenser on upward last, racking headshot after headshot, even on the poor f2p spy that tried to backstab him. By saying "not every sniper CAN do that" you entirely miss the point of the video. Playing sniper (with good positioning) is risk-free at any moment as long as there isn't an opposing sniper threat. The same however cannot be said for the 8 other classes, who are in danger not only when there is a sniper threat, but literally whenever there's any other class fighting them in the frontlines, too. "Urm, ackhually.... scorch shot exists...." Darwin's danger shield exists too. "Well.... you also have um.... spies.... urm...." And you also have the razorback, let alone an entire team of (hopefully) competent teammates, some of whom are bound to be pyros who naturally spycheck everyone. Spy has "high risk and high reward". Sniper just shits on the aspect of risk and heads into the casino knowing full well that he rigged the machines for a jackpot.
My biggest problem with sniper is that of interactivity, people tell you to not go to sniper sightlines, but it's just "oh no, I died, guess I won't be going there" but it's kinda boring when there's no combat and also, he's supossed to be weak at close range, which is not only generally hard in a lot of cases since he can stop you before hand, but, as well as medic, melee random crits makes it so frustrating to die in the supposedly advantage point I have because of luck. Also can apply to spy, but at least it's effective range is also a super dangerous range for him and you can hear him/see him and confront him, where with sniper you just fuck yourself
Sniper's high damage output also means he naturally has a higher crit chance if he's doing well. And if he's on a server that doesn't allow random crits, he still has the Jarate and Bushwacka to force crits.
The worse part of the “avoid sniper sight lines” argument is that no one really expects you to follow it. If everyone in a server was to follow this advice, the sniper would have to only get closer to get a better sight line where there are actually enemies, and then what, retrieve again because the sniper moved? That is basically giving the game for free to the sniper, it’s not like he’s a sentry (in which case the argument does work).
Also, a big reason Spy isn't as frustrating is because he's terrible. If Spy was as good as Sniper it would be as frustrating because he's just as uninteractive.
@@gaidencastro9706 Classes should not have items that fully disable their hard counters to the point where they do not exist as a threat anymore. Its as dumb as if scout had a gun that blew up sentrys in a single bullet but the downside is that you dont have a pistol. Every one of snipers secondarys should either have its effects reduced to the point of being redundant or should have drawbacks far greater than its positive traits
God thank you so much for talking about this. Sniper is just fundamentally unfair. And literally requires the least game sense of all the classes because the thing about sniper that people tend to forget that he HAS A TEAM. People always say “just go scout” or “just go spy” but then forget that if a pyro or a sentry happen to exist within a few yards of the sniper, it becomes impossible to take him out. And even if you do, he comes back a few seconds later.
A razorback sniper next to a sentry nest manned by a competent engineer is legitimately impossible to kill unless you outsnipe him. And that’s with a single guy defending him!
@@elfascisto6549 I think it was from an old video of uncle dane where he was talking about the one time he went to the Valve HQ and jokingly asked for the spy to be removed from the game and Robin Walker or another TF2 dev (i don't remembler correclty which) answered them by saying that if there were a class to be removed it would be the Sniper. I think the video is the one array seven, it should be on uncle dane's channel
@@nieno9760 I remember he left a comment on of Sirky's videos where he said this but also that the TF2 devs were REALLY good at Sniper (to the point where they get a lot of hackusations).
@@artifactU problem is: now you are constricted to only your melee (unless you go sniper too but that's also the same problem with regular sniper everwhere else as talked about in the video). same problem, different conditions.
I'm actually surprised you didn't mention the Jarate + Bushwaka combo from hell that can insta kill 7/9 of the classes and leave one at 5 health (Which assuming the Soldier rocket jumped to you in order for them to get into melee range of you, they are also effectively ohko'd by it)
That’s actually an issue with the jarate, as the cleaner’s carbine is fine with the bushwacka. Jarate is a near instant AOE of mini-crits that you can apply with a quick peek and that’s why it’s overpowered/banned in comp.
Just jarate in general is really powerfull I'm pretty sure using it for your team is better than just doing this combo to kill the gibus spy that missed his backstab
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 no, its an issue with the jarate. a quickly recharging, aoe, marked for death applier. You could also say its an issue with minicrits and their removal of damage fall off
jarate's range is also kinda bonkers on its own I remember fish on a stick throwing it on the tower of thunder mountain last map it didnt land near anyone and behind a wall yet everyone got douzed, insane
Surprised you didn't bring up the Jarate and Bushwakka or the shields, In my eyes giving Sniper so many options to counter his hard pick (Spy) has resulted in him becoming overpowered. Also as many others have mentioned Shounic's lasersight idea (mostly) removes the "getting killed by 2 pixels across the map" problem.
I think bushwaka is actually not a big deal cause it requires melee. In most circumstances you can play around that. Jarate in general is insane tho. Becausd you sacrifice almost nothing for it, but gain a crazy support utility for it
Sniper is just spy if he could backstab from any angle, at any range, whilst invisible I really enjoyed this video, and I like how you played spy the way he was intended to be played for the most part (not relying on things like instant dead ringer decloaking or the Kunai’s 210 hp). However, whilst I do agree that sniper is fundamentally flawed, I still think that he could be changed to make him more tolerable to fight. Things like: *giving him a scope flash while he’s scoped in so that you know where he is and if he’s aiming at you *making it take significantly longer for him to scope in so that his effective range is only long range, and not point blank range *giving his rifles 4 shot clips with a hard reload, taking him out of the fight after every few shots and giving the enemy team a chance to push forward *reducing his movement speed so that once you close the distance he can’t just run away *changing items like the danger shield and Razorback so that his biggest counters (spy, and flare spam) are actually effective *making his scope sway if he moves whilst scoped in so that he can no longer dodge incoming attacks at zero penalty *giving him more distinct reload and firing sound effects so that you know when he’s present/ a threat *giving his rifles the same tracer rounds that every other weapon in the game has Again, it would still be annoying to die after being shot by somebody across the map, but at least now you’d be aware that he’s aiming at you and he’d have clearly defined weaknesses (no longer effective at close range, more vulnerable to projectiles)
yay someone else who thinks reducing his speed is a good idea. id also nerf his melee damage to 40 & make jarɒte apply a 30% damage vulnrability instead of minicrits
Absolutely phenomenal analysis and criticism. I especially enjoyed the comparison between Spy and Sniper to highlight the glaring issues Sniper has in relation to Spy, who while weaker, is designed a lot better than Sniper. You earned a sub
imo spy design is not that great. Thing is, he gets worse with time. If a good spy from now was playing in 2011-12, they would be considered a god in tf2. I do see why spy is still better designed though.
I don't know this video had simple factual errors within 3 minutes even if you ignore the more subjective statements. But its well produced. And well produced videos sadly are assumed to be correct.
@@cutx1 better designed doesn't mean hes going to be the best class. It's just obvious that Spy is more fair to fight against than Sniper. Sniper is completely one dimensional. Both in terms of fighting against AND playing as.
@@cutx1also spy was nerfed too hard. Dead ringer not was op after Gun mettle but Jungle inferno killed this weapon constantly. Same to the ambassador. People saying "shpee couldn't be a snipa" but i want another way to deal with sniper when sniper has a pyro bodyguard and 3 sentries near of him.
As a spy main, I like playing him for he reasons you just said, that major risk versus reward, but sniper is on track to becoming my least played class and I don’t know when I last played him. Every other class I have recent memory playing. .Scout runs around you like that one fly you can’t swat .Soldier jumps around and shoots rockets at you or hits you with a shovel in mid-air .Pyro runs straight at the enemy causing panic with his flames .Demo make big boom .Heavy mows down groups of players with a big gun .Engie builds powerful buildings that must be protected .Medic is constantly in the battle healing his team and pushing with ubers .Spy has to sneak around and stab distracted players Sniper... just sits away from the battle and shoots at people, so I never really wanna play him...
Tbh one of the biggest issues with Sniper in my opinion, is that he's supposed to be effective at long range, but weak at close range, which is not the case at all, a Sniper can still kill you with their rifle if you're right next to them, and if that fails, they can switch to their secondary and kill you that way
i mean if you are at low hp and die by the smg he did the right choice, its a close range pistol but dying by a close range headshot that i hardly managed to pass he´s entire ass team and sentry gun? thats bullshit (like imagine if i still have 80% of my hp remaining sorta)
50 damage body shot hitscan weapons without charge, getting to a sniper is hard due to his team so your typically at low heath. So the sniper can just run away and click on you like two times and kill you.
@@tiorast6802And his secondary is reliable. It isn't like he can stop airal movement, take no risk body shots with no fall off, back away with a speed that can't be cought up to easily and can use melee to a very tired, very low hp target with no downsides on his secondary, primary, melee and his entire damn team is there? Oh wait, There is.
You're saying that like it's the easiest thing on the planet. News flash pal, hitting someone who's shooting you in the head at point blank ain't easy. Those clips you see aren't all that common. Even for the best of snipers, those shots are extremely hard to hit. But I will say that jarate bushwacka is bullshit and should be removed from the game.
@CodeTheProtogen Yeah it is true quickscoping is hard to do and takes a ton of skill. Rather than I remove it I'd say make it take longer. Like after a shot make it so the Sniper has a longer reload. If he hits a quickscope, he lives. If he doesn't, he's as a good as dead. Sounds fair in my opinion.
@@artifactU didnt account for the sniper mains fun experiment was only 3 days experiment didnt have controlled skill levels experiment DID have limits of medic, which do not exist in casual tf2 people joining the experiment may have been biased towards shounic or against sniper, so they already thought it'd be more fun and never thought it through
This is the counterpoint to having a majority of the classes using projectiles as opposed to hitscan, that is that any class that does have some form of hitscan (especially accurate hitscan) has the innate advantage of speed of dealing damage (at range).
I mean, you are right because the most important frontline classes use projectiles, and all classes but sniper are usually very bad at long range (ignoring issues like Wrangler go brrrr). But, they are not the majority, atleast considering only stock. Stock Heavy, Scout, Sniper and Engineer use hitscan Stock Demo, Soldier use projectiles. Stock Pyro technically uses particles, and Medic has the syringe gun but really should always have the medigun out. But in a way they can count for your example. Stock spy is I guess both hitscan and melee based. With melee of course being also, well, melee ranged. Of the hitscan classes, the only two good at range are Sniper (it's his job after all) and Engineer (sentry autotracking, the infinite pistol ammo pool for extremely annoying chip damage).
@@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870 Spy is arguably the best non-sniper class at long range because of the fact that the revolver deals a meaty 21 damage at max range. You can do some very significant damage at a very safe range with it, and if you're lucky, a full 6 shots will kill a light class without ever being in any real danger. The wrangler, sure, is quite good at range but a sentry is stationary, so it's easier to prevent yourself from being damaged by it. I'd argue balance wise that the revolver should just have its spread either reduced a ton or removed in order to make the class a more consistent sniper counter. The most consistent part of Spy's kit has always been the gun if you know how to use it correctly, it would be great if that extended to being consistently good against razorback snipers hiding next to a sentry gun
@@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870 Note that outside of Spy, most hitscan weapons fall off _very_ quickly pass medium range. Pistols and Shotguns have serious spread. You can do damage quick, but 10 damage a shot barely does anything. Heavy's minigun is powerful, but makes him a sitting duck. Meanwhile Spy has the highest damage hitscan weapon at range outside of sniper. At mid range and with accurate shots, he can fight pretty evenly with anyone using a shotgun.
I remember shounic trying an experiment where the sniper constantly has a laser pointing from his head regardless of if he was scoped in or not. It looked like it sorta helped with the interactivity issue as you could mess with sniper’s crosshair placement or just avoid a sightline more easily. Just not sure since I never got the chance to try it out myself.
Yeah I saw that video, it was actually a very interesting concept. It at least lets you know what spot on the map to avoid, but it still doesn't really allow true interaction. He's still making it tough to actually get close to him in a similar way
@@PefectPiePlace2 If you have fun playing as Sniper. Which ... I'm now realizing has never been true for me. I don't like playing Sniper. I like the class itself, but playing Sniper isn't fun for me. It's boring, and winds up leaving me more depressed than I would've been dying as, say, Medic or Heavy, or any other class.
I find it incredible how despite some of the worst issues and other problems that probably weren't even the developers fault at all, the game as a whole managed to last this long and still be fun as hell overall. Not that the issues can't be fixed, but it's a testemant to how well they designed it overall. That being said, the sniper dot idea is pretty good. Though I do have to correct on one point, scout is very much a pick class these days, as is trolldier (which can be very terrifying if they're good).
"...You can't remove classes from the game." Shounic did that about 5 months after this video was posted in a test and everyone agreed the game felt over-all better. Specifically it disallowed people from picking Sniper. Make of that what you will.
that allows for heavy dominant meta where he is completely unkillable and just ruins all and every game by simply existing, you would be forced to remove heavy then as well. also medic automatically becomes even stronger even thk he is the strongest class in the game. i say this as someone who plays both sniper and heavy out of necessity (and tothe point where they are my 3rd and 4th most played classes of all time) because in order to counter heavy on somr maps you need to go heavy yourself and sometimes its better that you go for sniper instead. imo if heavy was somehow rebalanced, then rebalancing the sniper as well would be warranted, maybe making the sniper rifle have a bulley drop and no charge.
@uros7320 Heavy really isn't that dominant with Spy existing. And even if you want to argue that spy is weak, heavy's slow movement still leaves him susceptible to splash damage, especially from corners. Just don't fight him head to head. You really don't need a sniper to do it for you. And he still has the rest of his weaknesses baked into the cake. Those being his speed and need to be in good positioning to be as effective as possible, that doesn't change with sniper being less effective or even gone, since you shouldn't be standing super exposed as a heavy anyways unless you want half the enemy team to gun you down anyways. And as for Medic being "more powerful", the only difference that comes from removing sniper is that there'd be 8 classes instead of 9 praying on his downfall. Literally every class in the game is out to drop medics. Just makes it less free than shooting him from across the map. If anything it would make medics more confident being in the open, which would make for more interesting plays to drop the med instead of both meds playing safe. I really can't think of much else that would change. I don't want to delete sniper, I understand why his niche exists and what it does. I just think he is far too powerful in his current state and should be nerfed.
@kennysalty6019 you are just wrong. sure a retarded heavy in 12v12 will be killable by spam from demos ans soldiers and even a spy here and there but try playing valve comp where there are 6 players. heavy slows those games completely, and forces the other team to pick him as well. heavy is my 2nd most played class in comp only because im forced to play him. a good heavy will be aware of the number of players he sees and in comp there are voice coms, so 100% lf the times your team will warn you of a spy decloaking behind you and stuff like that. i have had game on heavy with comp where i went 30 and 0 on payload. that class is extremely unhealthy for the game, just have a medic pocket you with quickfix and you can sustain any damage, position yourself decently and you just hard carry every game to the point that the class looks unfair (which it is). he needs to be reworked in a way where he has less dps because rn he is a big problem.
@uros7320 If you're playing and using Valve Comp as your playing field you're making a mistake. That's a largely dead game-mode with almost no serious or non-serious players. They all migrated to actual 6's with outside tools. It is not a genuinely competitive environment for tf2 despite Valve's efforts to make it so initially. In those games, standard team comp is 1 Med, 2 Scout, 2 Soldier, 1 Demo. Medic aside, all are high damage, high mobility, highly flexible classes. Heavy is lacking in two of those three things, which is super important for sixes. His natural stats nerf him. And this natural team comp disproves that Heavy would be over-abundant anyways, because there's almost never an enemy sniper. Heavy still gets hard bodied by this team composition. You're using a negligible source for your position on this. Sorry if you're ranked Death Merchant, but even Valve largely abandoned the official comp gamemode. And considering what you've told me, you'd probably get eaten alive in scrimms If you want to make a case for Heavy being "way too good without sniper", you have to talk about the Highlander gamemode type, where more map types are played aside from 5CP. Both teams have one of each of the 9 classes. And even then, Heavy only really stands out on defense when he's positioned correctly. Removing sniper would only broaden the range of good positions, requiring more game-sense on both sides of the field. His natural stats keep back from functioning well anywhere else. Heavy really doesn't need a rework that nerfs him.
Instant killing sniper rifles work in many games because most other options in those games also can compete at long range (Rifles usually). But in TF2 every single class is focused on short to mid range combat, the only other class weapons that can even try to counter sniper are direct hit or flare guns, but even then the sniper will probably just kill you before the projectile reaches them. Having only one viable long range class in a short range game fucks everything up
Bodyshots charging really is ridiculous when you think about it. Scope in for a few seconds and you can instakill the most important class in the game by clipping his pinkie toe. Even the top competitive Snipers miss headshots all the time and still rack up frags for it.
I don’t play TF2 as often as before and when I play I only do it in MvM but I totally agree, I remember being at the top of the scoreboard by using the Sydney Sleeper and being annoying af, making me a high priority target and making the enemy team come to my team and they always failed
honestly the only way to dodge snipers in an incredibly open map (and by big I mean pkbigcity type of big) is to pick scout and crouch jump every time you jump or double jump, move your mouse like crazy to move you head and screw with the sniper, use the winger for the extra jump height, straif every time you jump, use the bonk for easy crossing, and all around move unpredictably to force the snipers to body shot you
@@Idk-qx1hu Jumping makes headshots easier actually. Cuz in ground you can flick your movement fast and unpredictable-Smashing your keyboard and pressing every button you have like you playing DDR. While jumping,can make one fake out sure. But experienced Sniper can... Easily predict your land after all your double jumps. So-Jump rarely for a fake out. Move more on the ground and duck. Atleast a chance to...not lose your 18 killstreak :V
@@Idk-qx1hu Bur still...you giving to the pro sniper free seconds of prediction. Cuz-Falling is falling,even with straif. He can make a quick flick. But thats true-You can win some shots.
Whiners nerfed the amby into oblivion, lmao. They also nerfed the DR into oblivion. Now the skill ceiling for spy is half of what it used to be. All because valve affirmed the whiners crying about encountering skilled players that know how to make the most of a loadout. I was a spy main back then, 1700 hours playtime on record... Despite people claiming DR spies, or ambassador spies were "OP" i rarely, if ever, lost against them, with other classes, myself... it just takes a bit of knowledge to completely counter spies, but now playing spy feels like sht, and playing against them feels unfair. They were already fking weak, they had no practical application in competitive, and they nerfed them even more. I wasn't surprised that they did that though... The reason random crits exist, is specifically to handhold newbies and cater to their every emotional outburst. And it's this reason why TF2 failed to compete with OW when it released. They ignored long-term, in favour of short-term, they fked up the official application of competitive mode, and that was the final nail in the coffin. That's what robbed the Dev team of their funding. Now we're stuck with this mess, indefinitely.
@@MyouKyuubi old dr spied was way less skilled than the new one tho? I agree with ambi lowering his skill but the old dr was such an unskilled brainless weapon that honestly deserved it’s nerf. You shouldn’t be able to have almost 100% uptime on a weapon that makes u almost impossible to kill.
@@iUseDemFrapz "old dr spied was way less skilled than the new one tho?" No... Just cause they knew where ammo packs were located, and actually picked them up, doesn't make them less skilled. That IS skill... The fact that you werre too much of a noob at the time to go to those ammo packs and hunt them down, THAT IS YOUR LACK OF SKILL REARING ITS HEAD! "You shouldn’t be able to have almost 100% uptime on a weapon that makes u almost impossible to kill." And yet, i never had any problems killing those spies, where YOU apparently did. That means YOU were just dogsht at the game, YOU lacked the strategic skill necessary to figure out where the spy would go to replenish his DR charge, YOU lacked the strategic and tactical skill to understand when said spy is msot likely to NOT have his DR active, etc... That is on YOU. That doesn't make the spy OP, it makes YOU brain-dead and skilless. The DR isn't a skillful tool anymore, because it has NO application in even public servers now... it's fking useless. You feign death ONCE every 30 seconds or something... Thats 30 seconds where the spy WILL die if anybody so much as LOOKS at him funny. So if you encounter a DR spy nowadays, and you struggle against them? That's because YOU are dogsht, not because the spy is skilled, the spy may or may not be skilled, but with a DR they're helpless, mechanics limits how far skill can take you. And your skilless whining removed the mechanics that made skill a factor for survival for spy. That's why spies are underpowered now, because YOU were too mentally lazy to learn how to deal with them properly. So excuse me if i have no interest in hearing what some skilless scrublord has to say about the DR. YOU can shut the fck up!
@@MyouKyuubi ok bro I’m literally 100% certain I am better than you at the game and probably better than you at spy too. The dr was unskilled cuz it’s a get out of jail free card that allows you to compensate for playing poorly. Dr having constant uptime literally meant that old dr spies (especially gun spies) could pretty much never die if they didn’t want to and basically had no risk for going in and doing stupid shit. It allows you to not be punished for making bad plays and that’s inherently unskilled, seems like you were just a bad player who couldn’t pick ur fights and relied on a lame unskilled crutch to compensate for your bad game sense xDD
@@iUseDemFrapz "ok bro I’m literally 100% certain I am better than you at the game and probably better than you at spy too." yeah congrats, you're better than someone who stopped playing the game like. 6 years ago. Congratulations, you win the loser award, you still play a dead game that is dead, for a fking reason. "The dr was unskilled cuz it’s a get out of jail free card" Wrong... it wasn't a get out of jail free card, it was a get out of jail, if you play well card... There's a reason i never struggled with DR spies even when they were at their strongest... Because simply going to the nearest ammo pack isn't always good enough, and you could still be lit on fire back then, so pyroes still had 0 issues dealing with spies. Spies weren't OP, players were just too fking lazy and sucky to learn how to deal with them properly. Spies weren't a "click 1/2 times to kill" target, so they got pissy, and threw a hissy-fit. They're not OP, just because you can't instantly kill them, newbie. They're OP, only if they can RELIABLY SOLO THE ENTIRE ENEMY TEAM. You don't even know what OP means, because you're just a scrublord. Yes spies were survivable... BECAUSE THEY NEEDED THAT SURVIVABILITY TO BE VIABLE... AT ALL... "that allows you to compensate for playing poorly." You assume that using the DR to get away is "playing poorly", what is your metric of success here? What qualifies as "playing well" to you, exactly? You can't accuse someone of playing poorly without having an idea of what is playing well... So then, what is "playing well", hmm? If your idea of a spy playing well, is camping around with a cloak and dagger, or doing ammo-rounds with a stock invis watch, you're a fking idiot... Those watches do not allow the spy to reliably make a move on enemies, the same way a rockewt launcher allows a soldier to reliably make move on enemies.. Why should all the other classes get to make moves reliably, and not spy? His entire playstyle is risk vs reward, if you allow the spy to get close to begin with, YOU suck, the spy isn't OP just because he can 1-shot you from the back... He's only OP if you can't defend yourself against him, and the DR never prevented that. You're just salty because you sucked too much to actually kill a DR spy back then. That is literally all this is... Entitlement, you feel ENTITLED to getting kills on spies... THAT'S the problem. Even if you didn't kill him, enabling the DR still counts as having dealt with the spy. He still has to go find ammo before he can come back and make another attempt on you, that counts as a respawn timer as far as you're concerned. And if you really want to kill him, you could EASILY find a way to deal with them, by using your head a little bit. Your entire "get out of jail free card" rhetoric only works, if you assume you have a RIGHT to get a kill on spies... Which you don't. Simple as that. "Dr having constant uptime literally meant that old dr spies (especially gun spies) could pretty much never die" You do not have a right to have spies die just to soothe your ego. Nobody cares if spies were immortal, could they solo entire teams reliably? No. So your argument of them being OP, is invalid. The end. The fking end! Do you understand? "and basically had no risk" Wrong, the DR was never that powerful, spies can't backstab with the DR up, that's when you strike them, you read them... Figure out what they're trying to do, which tells you when they're most likely to have the DR down, then you shoot them. if you feel cheated out of a kill because they DR'ed, that's just your entitlement rearing it's head... You do not have a right, to get the kill, you must WORK for it. "doing stupid shit." Welcome to Team Fortress 2, m*r*n. Get over yourself. xD "It allows you to not be punished for making bad plays" As if you're the arbiter of what constitutes "bad plays"... The nerf was implemented to appease the noobs, EVERY nerf in this game was implemented to appease noobs. Because that is the balancing philosophy of Team Fortress 2, you fking idiot. The DR wasn't nerfed because it rewarded bad plays, the DR was nerfed TO REWARD BAD PLAYERS FOR BEING SO BAD AT THE GAME THEY CAN'T FIGURE OUT HWO TO DEAL WITH A DR SPY. Fking wake up newbie. "seems like you were just a bad player" Achieve middle-rank in Highlander competitive, and you can start talking sht about what a good spy player is/does. Until then, you're just a scrublord. You don't know how weak spies are, because you've never actually played the game competitively, and that's the only reason you're spouting this horsesht from your mouth. "who couldn’t pick ur fights and relied on a lame unskilled crutch" Ah yes, bad gamesense is exactly why i could vanish from a players eyes without even using the DR, by circling around him 2 times and rounding a nearby corner, and win 90% of spy-offs, even against multiple spies back in the day. :P You have no idea what you're talking about bro.
For me it’s the extremely long respawn time relative to the quick time to kill. You can die in a fraction of a second and then have to wait half a minute to respawn. I’m not saying no respawn time is optimal but it shouldn’t be over like 10 seconds on offense
One of the first changes I always like to suggest for sniper is to have his headshot damage have inverse ramp up at close range, so at long range it's normal HS damage and at close it falls down quickly, effectively taking away from sniper's ability to roll for a random crit style luck headshot at close range and save his ass when caught out. It doesn't change his design flaws mentioned here, sure, but it does actually make him more vulnerable when he's supposed to be. In an ideal world where changes focused on that are being made I would expect other things like his melee crits would be seeing major adjustments too. It really is just bad design on valve's part for sniper to basically have no weaknesses other than enemy snipers. The closest thing to being an actual threat to him at long range that isn't from a sniper is debuff stuff like the cleaver or scorch shot, and those really aren't easy to land at long range - not to mention the sniper can easily just duck away and often find healing to live through it anyway. He's not the only class in the game with huge power problems on weapons (you mentioned sticky launcher and that's pretty much the best example for this, though not the only) but he is just the most straightforward in both the issues of how it functions and how to counterplay it. I think sniper's flaws in actual interaction are best noted in how stale his weapon pool is. He has the smallest overall and nearly none change his playstyle almost at all. It's mostly the secondaries that do, and they're less overall playstyle changes and more "your playstyle doesn't need to account for x weakness (spy, pyro, chip damage) while using this". I would love more variety, like if the bushwacka appropriately did something to weaken his primaries like make all headshots mini crit, making the sleeper a go to with it since it doesn't lose out there, and then have the danger shield have a closerange piss related mechanic so that the combo overall fits a more aggressive, close range, spy reminiscent playstyle but makes him weak with long range. There would be a lot more changes needed to balance that idea out in general but it's a thought I had and it really made me realize just how stale and similar basically every item in every sniper slot is and how they all conform to playing one way and i felt like playstyle changes beyond a bow and arrow were good suggestions to also make people realize how monotonous sniper items are.
the sticky launcher ramp up nerf deserved to stay but people bitched that the defense weapon couldn’t be used offensively and it got reverted. while heavy was made borderline useless from accuracy and damage ramp up for 2 years.
@@cheese1008 yeah the sticky launcher was pretty obviously built intentionally to be an annoying overpowered piece of shit and I don't really get why valve did that. Not to mention even if you consider only its "intentional" design (sticky traps) it's the literal exact same problem of sniper that is "Oh I walked into a bad area and I had no warning this danger was present here. I am now dead instantly."
i think the main problem of not interacting with the rest of the team is "solved" with huntsman. It forces you to be amongst your team to land those headshots that are practically rng if you're too far away. "solved" in quotations because you dont have to pick the huntsman and can just equip any sniper rifle
I mostly agree, but the rng headshots and the stupid hit boxes with this thing is the massive problem I have with it. There isn’t much stopping a sniper from just sitting at a choke point and spamming arrows at the area where most classes heads will be if they pass through.
@@tophatanimations4729the thing is that it's balanced by being a projectile rather than hitscan like the rifles, and also being better at medium to close range. if the huntsman wasn't so generous with its shots, it'd be extremely infuriating to actually hit them. I think the issue of headshots being so easy to land should definitely be fixed, but I think the way they handle it otherwise (letting it hit as long as it hits the bounding box) is good.
You hit the nail on the head. You're one of the first people on RUclips that talks about problem with Sniper. It's not Quickscopes, that the fact that he can one shot you from across the map and his design is the opposite of the rest of TF2.
Instead of instant shooting you, there should be like a bullet traveling mechanic, at lest that will take skill and though, more than aiming a cross the map and deleting a scout just leaving spawn
Quickscopes are the big part of problem though. Sniper range is supposed to be balanced by reduced vision, yet it is not because quickscopes exist. Sniper is supposed to be weak at clos range, yet he is not because quickscopes exist.
@@skipperg4436 His strength at close range is only a problem because he completely dominates at long range. Imagine how hard and shit sniper would be if he had to rely on closer range quickscopes. It's also one of the most difficult parts of sniper is the close range quickscopes.
At 8:52 you could also say that engineer is also overpowered beacause he can deny areas with his sentry (mostly half of the map while at a safe distance)and he is very good in a map with fewer flanks,oppresive areas,in a team of coordinated players or multiple of them. And the engineer can build a dispenser to keep healing his sentry and his teammates also doing the medic's job.
All I’m saying is, two simple fixes to the base sniper rifle stats is all sniper needs. 1. Either reverse falloff or something like -50% damage within a certain range, to make sniper actually weak at close range 2. Add a laser that points to wherever the sniper is aiming. The laser would only appear when scoped in and would become more opaque as the sniper’s charge increases.
Wouldn't fix the engagement issue, but I would appreciate not being randomly quick scoped whenever I do decide to make the 5 hour commute to go kill an enemy sniper on a class that isn't sniper.
@@Hugonche29 yes but it should be part of every sniper rifle and should be a line that follows the sniper’s line of sight, and not just a dot on a wall that you may or may not be able to see
@@SnrubSource You can actually already do this, there are guides to movement everywhere on youtube and if you watch them and implement their strategies the sniper can no longer close range headshot you.
I thought this was going to be about how in pubs ppl can just pick any class with no thought for team composition, meaning you end up with 6 sniper, 2 spies and no medic. Good video nonetheless
The freedom to play whichever class you want and still be able to have fun regardless of your team is a carefully made decision by valve and is a key part of why tf2 survived this long. You are not bound to your teammates performing their duties like supports in overwatch to accomplish something. You are free to just get in a server and fuck around however.
My teams: noob spies stupid engineers Gibus heavy Suicide medics Bad snipers Enemy teams: Pro scouts Pocket medic with black box soldier Main spy Sticky spammer demoman Furry pyro
Forcing players to choose a class in a casual game will just be like the spy doing a backflip with a noose on him. Absolutely no player would want that.
Man, this video kinda makes me rethink that old Reddit post of the 10 year old saying they should make sniper rifles shoot projectiles at least then you might have a chance to dodge it, and that's at least a bit more interactive and less frustrating then undodgeable hitscan.
as someone whos experience with tf2 ended at being a backup medic in a single highlander game and getting a silver medal in 2005. the sentence "Pyros airblast prevents you from air-strafing, which makes it impossible for the blast-jumping classes to outplay the airblast is certain scenarios" actually sent me into a psychotic episode.
Oh Christ, here we go.... Time to watch people get extremely defensive over the one class you can't have an opinion about unless it's "get good" Edit: After watching this a few times through, you forgot to mention why Sniper is so easy aside from hitting bodyshots. You (more or less) stated that every class participates this run-and-gun game with their own mechanics and abilities, that can be mastered over thousands of hours of play. The interactivity of the other 8 classes, paired with mechanical impedance to curb their powerful abilities (Demoman's reload, Medic's long uber charging rate, Spy's risk and source jank, interacting with other player's skill in at medium to close range IN GENERAL, etc.) allows for them to blend seamlessly together. Sniper? His only mechanic/ability is simply "click on head or body to win." That doesn't take much to pick up, but it takes a lot to mitigate, since his only impedance is a lack of raw, mechanical skill. He's rarely impeded by the skill of other players (aside from another Sniper) thanks to his range. You don't need to know how to move (aside from the second scope shuffle as I call it). You don't need to play with your team. You don't need to learn optimal positioning or timing (aside from "be behind team, peek sightline"). You don't even need to understand the most basic yet intricate mechanics in TF2 to play the class. The more time you dump into any class, you learn how to mitigate impedances, but you can never be rid of all of them, naturally, otherwise the game would be a wreck. Sniper becomes oppressive because his only major impedance is raw skill (and his other minor impedances are removed by his secondaries and map design). Hence, easy. You don't need to learn much to be good at Sniper. You don't need to do much to be good at Sniper aside from dumping in thousands of hours into clicking heads, his only mechanic, which is far easier to do than say, dumping thousands of hours into Spy, Demoman, Pyro...all of which require far more in order to expect a similar level of effectiveness. Sniper's design IS inherently flawed. He does not fit in this game, and never has. People have been saying what you have for YEARS, including myself. There's no point in stating Sniper's issues, nothing is ever going to change, balance wise. Valve has checked out of TF2 indefinitely. However, the salt factory that this comment section will inevitably turn into will let you easily pick out the Sniper mains so you can point and laugh at their emaciated wrists. No one ever reads these long comments (trust me, I don't either) but if you made it this far thank you for reading my TED talk.
Yeah I think I agree with everything you saod tbh. He's very one dimensional, which most other classes aren't. Even heavy is less one dimensional because movement as a slow class is STILL important and his close range interactions add depth that sniper lacks. My biggest motivation for making this video is that I always see comments like "at least sniper is hard" when he honestly truly isn't in my opinion
As other commenters have pointed out, an actual way to fix sniper would be to give him a laser showing his line of sight exactly (as seen in Shounics video), because it allows you to have much more interaction with the sniper. You know EXACTLY where hes pointing at any time, you'd never be clueless if he is about to shoot you in the head, and you would be able to much more precisely dodge him.
It’s true. When you think about it, every class has a design flaw that is put intentionally to be countered by other classes. Heavy’s slow speed Medic’s lack of offense Scout’s low health Etc. But sniper, despite having the same health as scout, is only countered by 1 thing in general: His own aim.
Nah, Sniper used to be heavily countered by Spy, but then they gave him Razorback. I remember even picking Spy often to counter a dangerous Sniper, but now, with Razorback just existing, I don't even think about the idea, cause why bother if he probably will have it equipped.
@@patrykzukowski7471 what? you can just shoot him. it's super easy most of the time, and if you pick your moment, you can put the third shot and he will not even have moved
@@patrykzukowski7471 go dragons fury jet pack pyro to instantly make the sniper not consider any secondary other than the “shield of go fuck yourself v2” Sarcasm aside that is valid criticism expexcaly because NOT ONLY does he have TWO secondary’s that counter the most reliable ways to kill a sniper outside of mirror matchups, he could also just get a pyro butt-buddy to counter both at the same time AND let him use a secondary that is more useful in the general sense Seriously who the hell sincerely thinks sniper is balanced and has counters that just always demolish him and are not situational at all or nullified by the sniper not failing the quick time event of shooting the other dudes head
@@GoodlyData86596 Yeah. I mean I like what he adds to the game, I just don't like his potential and the stupid decisions to add counters to counters that ultimately make the class less interesting to play and play against.
My sniper balance idea is this: A zoomed in sniper suffers no damage fall off. Well, give him a taste of his own medicine. When zoomed in, any attacks against the sniper have no damage fall off. So scoped in sniper takes big damage. And getting hit while scoped in undoes all charge. Now many classes in the game can shoot back at the sniper and not get headshot as long as their accuracy is good. If a Heavy sees a sniper, he can focus his minigun on the sniper and the sniper will not be able to kill the Heavy. Now the sniper needs his teammates to draw heavy's fire so the sniper can kill the heavy. I think this makes the sniper more interactive, right? Because any class with a gun can now surpress the sniper, but those classes need to prioritize their targets based on who is more dangerous, the sniper or the frontline classes.
maybe make it apply all the time so its not countered by quickscoping. but that would bring back the ambys ability to counter sniper without being anoying for everyone else
it seems like multiplayer FPS developers don't understand what snipers are. most FPS titles portray them as long-range campers, when actual snipers are more like long-range flankers. they usually have instakill suppression fire which, in some cases, doesn't even require headshots.
I like the idea of giving sniper a dim laser pointer that would be seen when he was scoping (not just a point, but an entire line); this is as interactive as it gets for a long-range class.
this was done in a video by shounic, it drastically increased the interaction between snipers and other players, although a problem with it is sniper's ability to deal 150 damage without charging.
@@badideagenerator2315 Reward skill, punish bad playing. of course, to achieve this, we would also remove random crits, it's an abomination that should not exist. Quickscoping isn't the problem, my man, neither are headshots. The problem, is charging up shots, to insta-kill most classes with with bodyshots, or to instakill heavy with a single headshot, it's cheap, it feels crap, and it gives you undeserved kills and undeserved points on the scoreboard. Getting killed with skill, feels great, getting killed with cheap, lazy, gimmicks, does not. It fixes the problem by improving the overall feel and experience of the game. If you think that a skilled sniper, quickscoping a HEADSHOT to instakill a low-health class is a bad thing... You're a anti-skill crybaby noob that should stfu. -Sincerely, a Spy main.
@@MyouKyuubi meh, for me could be a reverse ambassador at close range he can´t do a quick scope on you, if you managed to get close to him, he should rely on he´s smg or melee do deal with you, specially if he is protected by he´s team or its a razorback user
Sniper's gameplay illicits skill, sure, but the problem is that his gameplay is also capable of just completely shutting down any and all resistance from the enemy team It's why Sniper Aimbots are so commonplace
Now I’m just thinking back to that Fishstickonastick moment where he tried to argue that “a demon man making a sticky trap is equal to a sniper, sniping you from across the map”
Yeah that's a terrible take. Since it's significantly more predictable where traps will be than where snipers can see you from, and it requires you to entirely stop using your stickybomb launcher while the trap is active, so you have to disable the best weapon in the game from your kit. And you have to constantly watch the trap
@@anafu-sankanashi8933 I can’t remember off the top of my head, it may of been a steam highlight, or maybe in his “why sniper isn’t over powered video”
@@braedenmclean5304 he doesnt have a why sniper isnt overpowered video, he has a what is exactly wrong with sniper video, where we discusses his problems with the class and some changes that could be implemented. and the only time ive ever seen him complain about sticky traps was in his phlog video, where the whole moment was played of as a joke. also, he says sniper isnt easy since even for seasoned sniper mains like him, consistent and quick headshots are a skill issue. and i dont think he's ever not called sniper strong or down right unfun to fight. he dislikes snipers bushwacka combo, dislikes the bazaar bargain for its game breaking power, finds all the backpack items like danger shield and razorback to be broken in bad ways and made an entire video on why jarate is brainlessly easy to spam and use with little to no risk.
scout's definitely a pick class and idk why people don't acknowledge it other than him being a generalist (but that's unrelated). soldier can be too, but definitely a power class, it's just the fact he can easily sac on a single target with high mobility and burst damage but doing so can leave him w/ little health and clip left. pick classes can easily get in a position to kill a single target at a time by range, mobility, invisibility, etc but are poor at immediate area denial and can be forced to retreat or be rushed down easily. power classes have things like splash damage, high ammo pools, high health pools, but lack free mobility or means of positioning themselves in battle for any specific target.
Ehhhh, Scout can definitely *pick*, but I'm not sure if it counts since Scout can do more than pick. Spy using his revolver or Sniper with SMG is just kinda mediocre. Their entire design is based around backstabs and headshots. Like, Soldier is normally a generalist with his rockets and banners, but only becomes a "pick" if he goes full trolldier, because he can't do anything else but single target elimination.
When I do play sniper (admittedly this is due to always wildly shaking my mouse in an attempt to predict the target's movement) I have the most fun using the smg and kukri or jarate and bushwacka, because it turns out that if you position yourself correctly in fights that can go kind of well. With the jarate and bushwacka I like to play more like a non invis spy, flanking and then killing stray enemies.
i agree with this so much, but every time i bring up how sniper is wildly unbalanced and easy, i am drowned out out by no life sniper mains who somehow find getting skill-free kills against players who literally have no way to counter you enjoying. at some point id almost be glad if he got removed
@@RandomFurry07 I'd argue that with how unbelievably risky and unfair the class to play, even a medic pick is nowhere near the reward he deserves for the mental trauma you will get playing this class.
hybrid knight can be long range if you are a special kind of wacky instead of launching stickies from a range, launch yourself and ooga booga whoever's annoying you
@@commanderdemonno9819 I used to play hybrid all the time but I use stickies now to be more versatile with the class. I strictly snipe using the grenade launcher I don’t do long distance cringe with the stickies.
See, I don't play on random crit servers so this was my best clip for it but yeah you're right, it's a Kritzkrieg uber. I was hoping nobody would notice but congrats on being the first haha
As someone who usually finds himself playing snipers in most shooters I do play, I really love Splatoon's sniper laser point. It really forces you to be sneaky, practice not only ur aim but also ur flicks and reactions since just pointing and clicking won't cut it since u are giving urself away when u are aiming. I have tried TF2's sniper but he doesn't really speaks to me the same way Demo does, and I think that lack of interactivity is what really does it.
my man forgot about the kunai and dead ringer combo that makes him an inmortal motherfucker but yeah let's call unbalanced the only class that never gets random crits from his primary weapons
You don't really need to destroy or aim all that well if you keep your eye on the objective, which people have to just stand on, and blast them every few seconds. Compare to spy, if they mess up, they get blasted from 360 degrees. If a sniper misses a long range shot, whoops, they'll get try again in 4 seconds. The only time a sniper is punished for missing is a counter-sniper or not noticing someone run up to them, and the second one can be mitigated if they just squat on a sentry or pyro.
funny thing is that i initially wanted to main sniper because of the dopamine rush i could get from a one tap, but like you said, he is map dependent. meaning that i have to play in specific maps if i wanted to master him, some what making him boring to play as rather than requiring skill and risk, it's instead more "i need to find sweet spot to camp". i ultimately switch to scouts as i'm less limited in the map pool and that one tapping isn't a guaranty.
@@andybogdan4380 yeah I was just about to say this. In casual scout is borderline useless on like over half the maps. I get sniper is limited on some maps but compared to scout it’s not even close.
This is one of the few instances it makes me wish the tomislav had more accuracy, just to spite the sniper, I've been able to annoy snipers with the tomislav, but it's usually a dumb idea and I only do it when I'm somehow caught in his crossfire with "die like a coward or die with a funny tango and maybe survive"
Sniper is literally just a random crit from the perspective of the player who died to him I really hope that some day someone will say enough is enough and make community servers that disable this mistake of a class.
I genuinely feel scummy playing sniper sometimes, but I love the huntsman. Sure it can feel cheap when you get accidental kills but it feels like you can get closer and more interactive with the carnage with huntsman
Always thought it was weird that sniper never had to fully charge up to hit a headshot. He can just turn a corner and instakill a scout; did the devs not think players would get that good?
maybe they thought quick scopes were cool, because not even air shotting soldiers feels good as a close range scout kill never got why people whine so much on sniper. just go destroy the game with being so op if it's so easy as people seem to think
As a Sniper Main, I can confirm we are fuckin broken m8, n it is a little easy I wont argue that, but he can be fun when your aim doesnt decide to kill itself, but his easy nature and not much involvement in a fight is what makes me choose different classes such as Scout or Soldier or Engie so I can be more interactive, and now when I play Sniper I try to put myself in the middle of the action to give the enemy team more of a chance
getting 1 shot by spy doesnt always feel fun, but most of the time it feels *fair* getting 1shot by sniper is almost never fun and very rarely *feels* fair
i had the most FRUSTRATING conversation in a discord a couple months ago regarding a real situation that happened to me in a match. Picture, if you will, badwater 2nd point. Normally this is a fairly easy push for blue as they maintain momentum from 1st point. One small issue though: the enemy had a godly sniper on their team who was holding down the point HARD. It was impossible to outsnipe him except with a vac medic on my side - and that usually resulted in him being dead and my team now without a medic, meaning we were unable to push effectively. There were not enough players on either team for double med to be viable. One might say, "oh, surely you could have just dropped on him as scout/soldier/demo from the top flank route? WRONG! They had pyros *dedicated* to airblasting anyone who attempted that. Did I also mention that they had an engineer nest just out of the way of the main corridor to also shoot at anyone who tried to flank from the top, or in case they somehow managed to push through the sniper sightline? As well as a medic to top everyone off just in case. And to add insult to injury, the guy was truly disgustingly aware of everything, because even when I tried to bomb him by cross-map jumping with the beggars, he would bodyshot me and kill my momentum, allowing the previously mentioned sentry to finish me off by the time I landed. Now, about the conversation I mentioned at the beginning. I vented about it in a discord server, and I was met with basically a whole bunch of "skill issue." Should've just organized a push better (nevermind the fact that we would've had to pop uber before even rounding the corner on the main sightline, wasting precious seconds). Should've all pushed from the flank (we did and got airblasted back and pushed back by the sentry). Should've flanked him (impossible). Should've outsniped him (not viable). Should've gone spy (we did. The pyros spychecked). The reason this conversation was so frustrating was that they just could NOT see that the reason this situation was unwinnable was solely due to the sniper. Had he been any, and i mean ANY other class, an uber push through the main corridor would've been enough, I'm absolutely positive. There is simply no way any other class can completely deny a sightline like that. Not to mention - isn't it kind of telling that they had a sentry and pyros dedicated to covering the sniper? Does that not scream unfair? That a SINGLE class's presence can COMPLETELY alter a defence is ABSURD. Their defence was solid and they really took advantage of a poorly designed choke, I will give them that. But their defence was not absolute, at least, not without the sniper. No class should be able to singlehandedly deny a point. To believe that sniper is fine and see an example like that and still continue to believe that sniper should even remain in the game is insanity beyond my comprehension.
This was a well informed video, well done! I really appreciate that there's somebody out there who shares the same views on Sniper, in that simply changing number values for balance wouldn't solve the over-arching issue of the class
It's always been curious to me that sniper never got a true windup time to his headshots. The reload is extremely short even compared to other snipers in other games, and the charge mechanic is only restrictive against a little less than half the roster most of the time, and even then only slightly. In TFC they had you fully charge a shot before being able to headshot which got around that a little, but you also had okay close range options there too. Maybe they chose not to add a similar barrier for that reason here, but I can't help but feel a small baseline charge requirement would help people be able to close the distance a touch, or at least lob enough shit to push them out of the sightline.
A main issue with the sniper class, that has been covered so far is the risk/reward ratio. As a sniper, you're not punished for missing a shot, you simply wait that single second to fire your next. Unlike any 1v1 dm situation with rest of classes, missing a meatshot with any of the weapons (such as pipe launcher, stock scattergun etc), could very well lead to your death in that 1v1. Snipers just stays out of the combat, and as a result, when no one is firing at them (for any significant damage anways, since fall-off damage), you are not punished. The worst part about this, is if you are the one being fired at, you have no indication of that until you are hit (most often leading to an instant-death). Imo, a simple solution to this would be to simply add the machina firing ray on all the sniper rifles. With that suggested change, someone would know if they are being targeted (if missed), allows a player to respond to whats happening (take duck and cover for example) and as a result the sniper is punished (similuar to the Spy class), that your target is now aware of you. Without said suggested change, you can keep firing away at a target, without them knowing it. On a wild comparisons note, valve wouldn't give the Spy knife infinite range, allowing insta-kills from the other side of the map, meaning you aren't aware of your impending doom before you are dead, and not alerted of a failed attempt (since a melee swing ripping air molecules from across the map isn't detectable). Now that the community has developed quite a lot since the release of the game, this is becomming more apparant of an issue of how fundamentally broken and OP the sniper class is. Final note, there is a reason all of the cheating bots picks the sniper class above all others.
lmao "Upward is well known for its Australian tourism industry" is almost funny enough to make me less mad at the snipers having a line deep into BLU spawn. *almost*.
I have been feeling this for a long time and I have thought about this. I have a potential fix that will make sniper fit in, and it is very simple: Make the sniper's gun work like the Kraber from Titanfall 2. Hear me out This would make the gun projectile based, but not like the huntsman. It should feel like a bullet, with bullet drop and some delay. Maybe add some damage fallout. The zoom should be greatly reduced (maybe aim down sight) This should be balanced such: 1: Long range gameplay requires more skill and becomes more impractical 2: Snipers will position themselves closer to the front line 3: They are putting themselves at risk by being closer to the front line Tweaks would have to be made, but it's just an idea My perfect world would have sniper removed.
Yeah, unfortunately the problem with sniper isn't his sniper rifle, it's the fact that a "sniper" class just doesn't interact well (or at all) with the other classes, you can't really fix sniper without him no longer being a, well... sniper.
Here is a balance idea with the goal of increasing fun: players killed by a sniper primary will respawn quicker. This can either be a percentage of the normal time, or something like respawning right when the kill screen disappears. Also make snipers have a longer respawn time so that sniper picks are more valuable, especially if another class can get it.
It's kinda like the pyro case, yes you can do some very high skill ceiling shit, but w m1 is just as good and way easier. The sniper has an option to be less skill based but also effective, body shots are dumb.
Snipers in just about every game is not very fun to fight against, and the issue is interaction. So maybe encourage him to get closer, damage fall off would help with that. Maybe have the sniper rifle be kinda like the ambassador, it's difficult to make snipers more fun to fight against, but it's possible. take for example the ambassador.
Well said. Most gamers do not put enough stock into understanding the massive edge that a range advantage gives a weapon. Sniper already has a massive ranged advantage, he doesnt need a ttk advantage too.
One thing you didn't mention was how Sniper has the most 'counters to his softcounters' out of all classes. Jarate/bushwhacka for flankers, razorback for backstabs, DDS for afterburn harassment with flareguns, cozy camper for scope jitter and chip damage, ext... The few sniper nerfs I've come up with that make sniper just... better. And you'd have to give him most of these. 1. Rifle base damage to 25, charge increases damage to 6x instead of 3x. Now sniper can no longer quickscope kill any class, and can't quickscope/noscope any class without them equipping health reduction items. Yes he can still full charge bodyshot, but now his shot interval is now once 5.5 seconds at least, instead of 1.75. 2. DDS no longer has afterburn immunity. 3. scope jitter is now random with random intervals instead of being the consistent thing it is now, and it doesn't reset back at center. 4. Sniper now has a much, much more visible laser at all times showing where he is looking instead of the little subtle dot he has now. OR Sniper max hp is now 100, meaning a direct pipe or sticky or rocket or amby is instant death.
I actually like the hp nerf! If you're going to stay back and take shots from Mt. Everest, it's only fair to be decimated if someone else makes the climb.
, i think would be fair If the Headshot crit was replaced for minicrits or even losing the ability to Headshot when the Sniper is close to someone or way too much Far away, If the Sniper is Bad or insecure He would Take His time, If He is good He would be slighthly near the Battle , giving mire interactivity w the class , He could be killed more easily but one Hit kill would still be a thing, for the dds Just make the afterburn do less dmg and the anti Backstab Just give Sniper Dr If Shooted on the back, It would create a Nice dinâmica between the snipers, shoot and do a 360 to avoid being killed, If you kill you kill with style
I think giving sniper a visible laser like how mvm sniper works is already a huge nerf for it, sure they may got one or two kill but the laser gonna signal the enemy team to storm the sniper hiding place or forcing them to play high mobility classes such as jumping soldier, demoman, or flanking spy and scout. And also 50% damage reduction on quickscope.
@@stevecarrot visible laser after full charge or 1 second in scope is fine. Dont think they should nerf quickscope considering sniper has literal better options than quickscoping, its just for panic or being cool. Plus that will ruin sniper v sniper fights and be like when Darwins was trash
It's not that hard to be effective at all of the classes if you just have an idea of what the game is about. Sniper is not overpowered if you consider that medic can make someone literally invulnerable for 8 seconds, pyro cannot be hit by a single projectile, demo is demo, soldier can end up on the other side of the map and be a nuisance from behind, Engineer with a slightly competent team is immovable (Same issue with sniper). Despite it being frustrating that a sniper killed you without snipers the game would devolve into mindless Uber trading from the medics if he wasn't there. - Sincerely, a medic main
The devs SAID it's made to break stalemate, and "create those "rare high moment" when a guy go on a 1 man army spree and killing multiple enemy at once". Ever load up a developers commentary map in TF2?
@@45.chuminh81 "Critical hits are one of the features that resulted from our focus on pacing. The Critical hits system attempts to slightly influence the highs and lows of the game by increasing the chance of a Critical hit based on the player's recent performance. In summary, the better you're doing the more likely you'll continue to do well. This helps create those rare high moments where a single player goes on a rampage and gets three or four kills in rapid succession." This is the quote in it's entirety, where are stalemates ever cited?
@@maskofthedragon honestly the original comment is the best summary of what that dev said that I've ever heard. I never really understood what the 'rare high moments' joke meant until I saw that comment
I don't know how effective it would be at making him less oppressive, but I think a way to fix sniper could be to give him damage fall-off like everyone else, like Overwatch did with Widowmaker.
If generally, Sniper is more oppressive than Spy, I think it's really strange how there aren't any "Sniper ahead!" voice lines in the game to warn teammates of his sightline.
Funke made a pretty good video about this problem, but also talked about generalists. The video was about generalists vs specialist. I recommend checking it out, high quality.
2:19 onward: I'm sure there's a plugin that disables specific classes - I'm pretty sure the XBL version of the game even gave that option to match hosts - but if not, there's also a plugin that lets server owners make adjustments to classes' base HP. I actually use that very plugin on my server to slightly nerf & buff the sniper & spy respectively!
100 hp sniper, 150 hp spy, im guessing? 100 hp sniper would at least let godly demos one shot them with a pipe. if notthat, then im curious what the changes are
random sniper suggestions, just spitballing. some of these ideas better than others -add an ADS speed time -make it so he properly has to cycle the bolt after every shot so it takes longer to get shots out -make it so he actually has to reload his magazine -reduce his ammo pool -classic tracer rounds on all his snipers -visible laser when he is scoped in that becomes clearer and more visible the closer you get to it -audible laser sound effect plays when he's trying to line up a shot on you -scope glint of some sorts -increase the effectiveness of chip damage against him so he can't headshot if he's taking damage
Personally I always liked playing sniper as a close ranged combat class. I used the hitman's heatmaker and would try to go for close range quick scopes, occassionally using it like a machinegun once my meter was full. I personally, as someone who also mains Heavy and Medic, that there are actually ways to counter sniper, just that they're not as obvious as counters to other classes. Most classes can lift their weapons and turn slightly, covering their head hitbox, sometimes completely. A well timed "MEDIC!" puts your hand infront of your face, blocking the shot, and if that don't work, simply flanking them can also work wonders since their playstyle, especially when charging can be very tunnel vision inducing. Him being a "long ranged class in a game for close ranged ones" isn't really as much of a problem as his effectiveness therein. All of the classes have a similar area of power, so to speak. Heavy is the tankiest. Soldier and Demo both are pretty easy to use thanks to their explosives both dealing splash damage and knocking their opponents around enough to prevent them from retaliating. Scout's speed and ability to capture points at double speed make him an annoyingly powerful class in back capping as your team is distracted. And Engineers are truly a beautiful clusterfuck of why-the-hell?, capable of halting any game to a stand-still, even more effectively than a sniper could. However, I do agree that the sniper should be changed to make him more interactive or at least less difficult to counter. Among the ideas others have presented, I think the best one would be to remove his charge. It would make Heavy playable. It would force Snipers to actually get good at the thing their class was meant for, and they could now be countered as classes that could cover the distance like Demo and Soldier wouldn't be immediately taken out mid flight by a measely bodyshot.
there's a tf2 inspired game on roblox called "the flappy men" where the sniper class is more or less the same, exept he lacks the ability to charge up shots, his rifle uses projectiles and most classes have more health, meaning he can only 1 shot scouts and other snipers. generally he's less frustrating to deal with than sniper tf2 so long as he's using his default rifle and not one of the broken unlocks. he's also kept in check by the sapper class, who has an "electrorifle" (which is essentially just an assault rifle) which can lay down suppressive fire against snipers.
I've been thinking of ways to balance Sniper, imo it's probably possible, but it'd require a lot of testing. Here are some ideas: -For starters, removing their items to counter classes that should counter THEM like the Razorback and the Darwin's Danger Shield (Sniper shouldn't be able to win a 1v1 against either these classes on short range so easily). It's ridiculous how snipers can so easily get out of danger without doing absolutely anything. -The sniper sightlines thing from Shounic's video would also help but I doubt it'll entirely fix the problem, as there are some places you just have to go through. It could be one way to balance sniper, but no the only one. Alternatively, the CoD sniper glares could also work. -Perhaps sniper's bullets could be a projectile, as they are in many other games. This way, sniping requires certain amount of thought and prediction, more than just being point and click. The bullet could also fall a bit, making really long range sniper shots harder. -Buffing counter classes: It'd be ideal if other classes had ways to counter sniper sightlines, like Medic's MVM shield, or perhaps a new engineer building that could offer cover or a shield. Posible air-blastable sniper shots? -Sniper's gun jams whenever they miss a shot: Like was said in the video, if sniper misses a shot, it takes him longer to reload. imo this would work well and is in the spirit of the class -Upping the TTK (Time to kill) of snipers/no longer instakill: Making it so snipers have to combo to kill enemies, instead of instantly deleting them. Perhaps making it so it's impossible for a sniper to instakill an enemy but rather reduce their health ~95%, meaning they have to 2-shot every class. This might completely break sniper though. -Making it so the sniper un-scopes whenever damage is dealt. This way people can have *some* breathing room and prevent the sniper from sniping you if you do spot and hit him. This'd make flare pyros much more useful as support, as they'd disable snipers for a bit of time (Unless they have a bs item like the Darwins Danger. Seriously remove that shit) Either way it's very unlikely they'll rework sniper. Hell I'd argue it's more likely to be removed than to be reworked. It is nice to imagine a world in which the sniper class is balanced though.
Honestly, being able to two-shot anyone is still pretty powerful. Doing half of heavies health right now still causes heavy to have to retreat, especially since heavy can't do anything about sniper anyways.
im going to edit this comment many times in order to go through your points and this is comming from a spy main i agree with removing his item counters why can he counter spys and pyros with no downside? the shounic laser wont work imo as most good snipers use quickscopes so the laser will only hinder the non good snipers i heavily disagree with make snipers bullet a projectile and only a few games make oneshot bullets a bullet travel and if it has bullet travel EVERY gun has bullet travel god i would love a buff to spy but jokes aside it wont work as the shield what about other classes say a heavy going against meds or engies shield besides engie already has the short circuit so now he makes everyone have a bad time sniper missing a shot and his gun jamming makes no sense at all and is not "in spirit of the class" he maintains all of his equipment i dont bieleve getting rid of his one shot kill will be a good idea as the only combo sniper is jarate and the crit bitch blade
@@deathbringer9893 Fortnite only has projectile bullets for snipers, and it works pretty well imo, balances them a lot. Apex also has a combination of hitscan and projectile weapons, so some gund have bullet travel and others do not.
A balance idea I had was this: ACTUALLY MAKE SNIPER RELOAD INSTEAD OF HAVING HIS "RELOAD" ANIMATION BE PART OF HIS FIRING ANIMATION. Sniper can *actually* fire way faster than what the video would have you believe since quick-switching is an actual tactic for Sniper. lets you quickscope more often. Great skill to have I'm sure, but it *entirely* breaks the game's balance.
technically speaking, a stock sniper is somewhat countered by a flare/manmelter pyro. Pyro won't be killed by a quick scope and being on fire basically prevents reliable aiming. That can be countered by the danger shield though. Vacc medic is also a solution, but not for long.
Honestly I think it'd be a cool experiment where there's a regular TF2 server, but you straight up cannot pick sniper. What happens? Would people enjoy it more or less? Is the game more or less balanced?
Game is more balanced teams can push more easily and players have more freedom with movement and strategies. I know because I have a ton of experience and matched without Sniper are always the most fun. There are so many maps where a single good sniper can make movement impossible and there is nothing you can do about it since as long as the Sniper isn't braindead (which any sniper which can hold a team back won't be) they can kill any spy that threatens them.
You forgot one thing about sniper: he adds virtually nothing to the game. He has no ability to push, and can only defend territory; something that sentries already do in a much more reasonable way. Shounic did a test where he removed sniper from the game and the only change that happened was that people weren’t afraid of sight lines and could focus more on the mid fight. You know, the actually fun part of the game. And despite this, maps need to be designed with him at the forefront of the creators’ minds.
we would need a lot of different tests for that to prove anything we have: average players with average snipers and average players iwth no snipers we need amazing players with average snipers and amazing players with no snipers to prove anything
This is exactly my problem with Sniper, he doesn’t fit with the rest of the classes. He’s a practically insta-kill class from a range that no other class prioritises in that has 1 hard counter and 1 soft counter that is hitscan and with no risk.
People keep saying how op sniper is, yet I'm being killed by soldiers 500 times more than by snipers. Nor is he an easy class to play, at least for me, really It's sad how often I miss even body shots
@@demogaming8895 once sniper crosses the skill gap, there is little that a class can do against that. A soldier may get more kills but it’s far more reasonable and easy to kill him. With a sniper, you go around the map, pray to god he doesn’t see you, and pray to god he doesn’t jarate bushwacka combo you, and then go for the kill. With a soldier you walk up, dodge a few rockets, and shoot him. The soldier isn’t boring to kill, but a sniper is
@@thataintfalco7106 snipers always target eachother first, so as long as there are snipers on both teams, they should take care of eachother and you won't even know it. And who cares if sniper is boring to kill, at least I get some easy kills, it's a nice thing for a casual player like me
@@demogaming8895 If you have to rely on someone countering another class by playing that same exact class, then that’s a bit of a problem. At least against Soldiers, you can swap to Pyro to deflect rockets back at the dude, even if that Soldier is the best. Against a highly skilled Sniper who never misses shots? You can’t really do anything. I’ve seen Snipers who can even destroy *Scouts.* A playable class in a video game shouldn’t be balanced by skill and skill alone. No matter how skilled someone is, they shouldn’t be unkillable. Doesn’t help that, like the video stated, the Sniper has little to no interaction with the enemy team, which is extremely annoying in general to many people.
@@jblazerndrowzy so am I the only one who has never met such an unkillable sniper god? Apperently they should be everywhere... bots don't count of course. And no, I don't rely on snipers countering eachother, that's just what they usually do
![[TF2] Just What Exactly is Wrong With Sniper? - A Balance Discussion](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/C7Rm5NhTm-k/mqdefault.jpg)
When I die to spy i think: " yeah, I should have been more aware of the situation"
When I die to sniper: " yeah, 15 seconds break"
Sounds about right.
When I die to Spy: "Ahhh, why nobody is spy-checking/Why didn't I look around more/Man, that Spy is fucking good"
When I die to Sniper: "Thanks man, next time I'll try to not show my face for more than 0.5 seconds"
@one one danger shield exists :(
@one one Chad
Though I haven't played TF2 very much I have noticed spy usually can get the most value on his first life when the enemy doesn't know you've switched to him yet. He gets his value at a critical moment then your often better switching out to a more general purpose class like scout or soldier.
The problem with sniper is the MOMENT you encounter one, they are in control of the entire interaction.
Unless you are also playing sniper, they can kill you at essentially any time. If they put enough time into the game, and get good enough at aiming, they can completely dominate any sightline they have access to (and depending on the map, this could account for 70-100% of a control point)
Agree
you forget they have to have better aim skill than your dodging skill. dont represent how op a class is by analyzing theoretical maximum skill. its not realistic so it doesnt matter.
@@Suddsy11037 How do you dodge a hitscan weapon?
The most you can do is a spastic rain dance and pray they miss.
They still control the entire interaction.
I dont agree. You can pressure them whilst mostly staying in cover, and they can only aim at one person at a time. Also they tend not to look up.
@@zebraforceone to pressure them as anything other than sniper you either have to have tomislav kritz or are playing soldier unless they are rather close. 7 out of the 9 classes can barely do anything to a perched sniper. If they are playing passively (which most snipers are) they can just eat you from any distance no matter how much chip damage you chuck at them. If they arent shit or using the classic rushing up on them only works mainly in a vacuum on any map with long sightlines as there is always a extremely high chance of their team intervening either killing you or giving the sniper enough time to either retreat or merc you. Now in casual you probably will be able to get em eventually but the fact is also thats minutes of game time taken up just trying to stop 1 player from holding down an entire choke mainly through threat with little to no threat to themself (and also a 60% chance they instakill any spy or scout that does actually sneak up on them with a kukri random crit but thats outside of the arguement)
The best play as Spy I had ever done is get close to an enemy sniper, disguise as a heavy on my team, and chase the sniper. He thought he was gonna die so he ran away and off a cliff.
I never considered doing this
Next time i get behind an enemy sniper i'm disguising as a heavy the fists out and run at him battlecrying
@@dumblenutz5561 just dont get shot in the face
@@boomeronet7888 i will outsmart boolet
For me is backstabbing snipers with the holiday punch as an heavy, then pootis pow them everytime i can
@@anstorner Based
How nobody mentioned the 25 shots one after another is beyond me. There's no reload break, it's just 25 shots back to back to back to back which makes the sightlines a pain to navigate. At least the huntsman only has 12 arrows.
Right! I've always thought that was weird. The magazine on the Sniper Rifle is tiny, yet it fits 25 full-powered rifle cartridges like it's magic! Irl, snipers usually use tiny 3 to 10 round magazines (plus one in the chamber), because small mags are less cumbersome when you have to shoot from a prone position, plus they are much more reliable than greater capacity magazines.
The only rifle where it makes sense is with the Classic, since it's (sort of) based on the G36 assault rifle, which has proprietary translucent 5.56x45NATO magazines, with a capacity for 30 rounds, but obviously the G36 is a select fire assault rifle, not a precision bolt-action rifle.
On top of that, Sniper works the bolt pretty quickly... much quicker than regular people. Conventional bolt-action guns are known for their reliability, accuracy, light weight and simplicity, but they are not as speedy as lever/pump-action guns in operation!
So, basically, it makes no sense that Sniper can shoot both as fast as he can, and for as long as he can without running out. In my opinion, I think he should use the heaviest duty, smallest capacity, most slow to reload action possible for a rifle: breach-loader.
I would arm Sniper with a rifle like the Martini-Henry, which can only fire a single (quite powerful) cartridge before having to engage in a lengthy reload. Such ammo is heavy, so Sniper would only wear eight of such cartridges in a bandolier. Damage, range, zoom level and headshots are the same. How about that?
Also huntsman is VERY hard to learn and require some lucks
i def think the sniper rifle should only get 8-10 shots and should have a significantly slower reload
@@ironprince72They could make him do the reload animation from meet the sniper
@@OMGYOUARER8GHT nah. if you play a projectile based class, huntsman is easy.
"i should have respected the sightline"
-said the dead scout after being quickscoped at point blank range
Perfecly balanced
@@quintencornelissen2274 as all things should be
Ehh, still valid. Scouts usually get cocky when dealing with light classes. Baiting them into a sentry is another great trick to pull.
ei supa vc denovo
@@Thomas90012 o cara é mestre em me achar
Shounic made a video where he made sniper have a laser pointing at wherever his line of sight is, which other plays could also see. I think this can make sniper a lot less frustrating to fight, since you can interact with him more. In the video, the beam was always active regardless of what sniper was doing. I would make it so that the beam only becomes active when the sniper is aiming and I would make it so that the more the sniper rifle is charged, the brighter the laser is, so players know that they are getting themselves into when they decide to peak a sightline.
The main issue is quickscoping being too fast, so if you dont see a beam until you peek, some snipers literally pull headshots within less than half a second which is impossible to react to
@@mauroghen the problem is, any good player can kill you before you know it. What makes quick scoping any different?
Legit this a competitive shooter not splatoon
you can hardscope into a corner by hiding your dot/beam
@@mauroghen the time it takes to scope in and register that you can headshot is only about 50ms faster than the average reaction time. so... it's not impossible, but it can be hard for newer gamers who don't halve heightened reaction times. for example, I'm able to dodge a headshot when I see a sniper scope in, so I'm sure the laser beam will make it quite a bit easier to do just that.
For real, I've played against and with Snipers who could quick scope you faster than a scout could 2 shot you from the same range as the scout. Snipers that can literally delete you from mere feet away in seconds.
Yeah, but not every sniper CAN do that.
But the fact it's theoritically possible, even practical for some. Is ridiculous.
@@adrianmarc5430 "No, don't take away my free frags! The other classes require too much skill to play, I need my sniper easy mode!"
@@adrianmarc5430 Not every soldier main can use the beggar's bazooka to jump into a sentry nest and market garden a sniper like our guy just did in the video, but those that can aren't rewarded nearly as much as a highly skilled sniper main, who's sitting next to a dispenser on upward last, racking headshot after headshot, even on the poor f2p spy that tried to backstab him. By saying "not every sniper CAN do that" you entirely miss the point of the video. Playing sniper (with good positioning) is risk-free at any moment as long as there isn't an opposing sniper threat. The same however cannot be said for the 8 other classes, who are in danger not only when there is a sniper threat, but literally whenever there's any other class fighting them in the frontlines, too.
"Urm, ackhually.... scorch shot exists...."
Darwin's danger shield exists too.
"Well.... you also have um.... spies.... urm...."
And you also have the razorback, let alone an entire team of (hopefully) competent teammates, some of whom are bound to be pyros who naturally spycheck everyone.
Spy has "high risk and high reward". Sniper just shits on the aspect of risk and heads into the casino knowing full well that he rigged the machines for a jackpot.
@@deskslam4232 Do you main sniper?
My biggest problem with sniper is that of interactivity, people tell you to not go to sniper sightlines, but it's just "oh no, I died, guess I won't be going there" but it's kinda boring when there's no combat and also, he's supossed to be weak at close range, which is not only generally hard in a lot of cases since he can stop you before hand, but, as well as medic, melee random crits makes it so frustrating to die in the supposedly advantage point I have because of luck.
Also can apply to spy, but at least it's effective range is also a super dangerous range for him and you can hear him/see him and confront him, where with sniper you just fuck yourself
Sniper's high damage output also means he naturally has a higher crit chance if he's doing well. And if he's on a server that doesn't allow random crits, he still has the Jarate and Bushwacka to force crits.
The worse part of the “avoid sniper sight lines” argument is that no one really expects you to follow it. If everyone in a server was to follow this advice, the sniper would have to only get closer to get a better sight line where there are actually enemies, and then what, retrieve again because the sniper moved? That is basically giving the game for free to the sniper, it’s not like he’s a sentry (in which case the argument does work).
Also, a big reason Spy isn't as frustrating is because he's terrible. If Spy was as good as Sniper it would be as frustrating because he's just as uninteractive.
The sad part is that the sniper actually used to have counterplay.
Then he got two weapons that target the specific ability of his counter-class.
if valve nerfed every single one of his secondarys except the Cleaners Carbine and SMG into the dirt he would be a way more fair class
@@DannyCheezits I mean, it does increase his skill cap
@@gaidencastro9706 Classes should not have items that fully disable their hard counters to the point where they do not exist as a threat anymore. Its as dumb as if scout had a gun that blew up sentrys in a single bullet but the downside is that you dont have a pistol. Every one of snipers secondarys should either have its effects reduced to the point of being redundant or should have drawbacks far greater than its positive traits
Sniper with Darwin's Danger Shield effectively have 250 Health against Pyro
@@DannyCheezitsRemove or nerf sydney sleeper too
God thank you so much for talking about this. Sniper is just fundamentally unfair. And literally requires the least game sense of all the classes because the thing about sniper that people tend to forget that he HAS A TEAM. People always say “just go scout” or “just go spy” but then forget that if a pyro or a sentry happen to exist within a few yards of the sniper, it becomes impossible to take him out. And even if you do, he comes back a few seconds later.
And if u decide to go sniper as well just hope that Sniper isnt some dude with 10k hours on sniper
I’m a pyro main (combo pyro), and everytime I know I could survive a situation, without warning I’m at less than 20 hp and die……. Very fun
A razorback sniper next to a sentry nest manned by a competent engineer is legitimately impossible to kill unless you outsnipe him. And that’s with a single guy defending him!
You're just bad. Adapt and overcome or quit whining.
so all i’m seeing is a 13 min video is someone fussing about a sniper doing what all snipers do
Robin Walker, the man himself, is on record saying that if there's one thing he would've done differently while developing TF2 was to remove Sniper.
Do you have any shred of evidence to back that up ?
@@elfascisto6549 I think it was from an old video of uncle dane where he was talking about the one time he went to the Valve HQ and jokingly asked for the spy to be removed from the game and Robin Walker or another TF2 dev (i don't remembler correclty which) answered them by saying that if there were a class to be removed it would be the Sniper.
I think the video is the one array seven, it should be on uncle dane's channel
@@nieno9760 wouldn't trust that delusional donkey
@@nieno9760 I remember he left a comment on of Sirky's videos where he said this but also that the TF2 devs were REALLY good at Sniper (to the point where they get a lot of hackusations).
@@elfascisto6549 I like how you come here guns blazing as if what he just stated was somehow false, Sniper is broken, deal with it !
The mental gymnastics of people defending the infinite range, insta kill hitscan class is straight up impressive.
zzzzzzz skill issue zzzzzz
@@don_chanLIVE just dodge the hitscan type of argument
@@artifactU Just play medieval mode, only in this will you finally stop seeing Sniper having an unfair advant-
Oh
@@ElPolloLoco7689 yeah, the huntsman is more fair than the rifles i guess but i still hate it
@@artifactU problem is: now you are constricted to only your melee (unless you go sniper too but that's also the same problem with regular sniper everwhere else as talked about in the video). same problem, different conditions.
I'm actually surprised you didn't mention the Jarate + Bushwaka combo from hell that can insta kill 7/9 of the classes and leave one at 5 health (Which assuming the Soldier rocket jumped to you in order for them to get into melee range of you, they are also effectively ohko'd by it)
That’s actually an issue with the jarate, as the cleaner’s carbine is fine with the bushwacka. Jarate is a near instant AOE of mini-crits that you can apply with a quick peek and that’s why it’s overpowered/banned in comp.
Just jarate in general is really powerfull
I'm pretty sure using it for your team is better than just doing this combo to kill the gibus spy that missed his backstab
@@homesinc jarate wouldnt even be half as useful if the bushwacka didnt exist, its an issue with the bushwacka
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 no, its an issue with the jarate. a quickly recharging, aoe, marked for death applier. You could also say its an issue with minicrits and their removal of damage fall off
jarate's range is also kinda bonkers on its own I remember fish on a stick throwing it on the tower of thunder mountain last map it didnt land near anyone and behind a wall yet everyone got douzed, insane
Surprised you didn't bring up the Jarate and Bushwakka or the shields, In my eyes giving Sniper so many options to counter his hard pick (Spy) has resulted in him becoming overpowered. Also as many others have mentioned Shounic's lasersight idea (mostly) removes the "getting killed by 2 pixels across the map" problem.
I think bushwaka is actually not a big deal cause it requires melee. In most circumstances you can play around that. Jarate in general is insane tho. Becausd you sacrifice almost nothing for it, but gain a crazy support utility for it
Sniper is just spy if he could backstab from any angle, at any range, whilst invisible
I really enjoyed this video, and I like how you played spy the way he was intended to be played for the most part (not relying on things like instant dead ringer decloaking or the Kunai’s 210 hp). However, whilst I do agree that sniper is fundamentally flawed, I still think that he could be changed to make him more tolerable to fight. Things like:
*giving him a scope flash while he’s scoped in so that you know where he is and if he’s aiming at you
*making it take significantly longer for him to scope in so that his effective range is only long range, and not point blank range
*giving his rifles 4 shot clips with a hard reload, taking him out of the fight after every few shots and giving the enemy team a chance to push forward
*reducing his movement speed so that once you close the distance he can’t just run away
*changing items like the danger shield and Razorback so that his biggest counters (spy, and flare spam) are actually effective
*making his scope sway if he moves whilst scoped in so that he can no longer dodge incoming attacks at zero penalty
*giving him more distinct reload and firing sound effects so that you know when he’s present/ a threat
*giving his rifles the same tracer rounds that every other weapon in the game has
Again, it would still be annoying to die after being shot by somebody across the map, but at least now you’d be aware that he’s aiming at you and he’d have clearly defined weaknesses (no longer effective at close range, more vulnerable to projectiles)
This is nice change but i still would keep movement speed same
"Giving his rifle 4 shot clips with a hard reload"
Jhin, is that you?
@@weplo1597 why
yay someone else who thinks reducing his speed is a good idea. id also nerf his melee damage to 40 & make jarɒte apply a 30% damage vulnrability instead of minicrits
Absolutely phenomenal analysis and criticism. I especially enjoyed the comparison between Spy and Sniper to highlight the glaring issues Sniper has in relation to Spy, who while weaker, is designed a lot better than Sniper.
You earned a sub
imo spy design is not that great. Thing is, he gets worse with time. If a good spy from now was playing in 2011-12, they would be considered a god in tf2. I do see why spy is still better designed though.
I don't know this video had simple factual errors within 3 minutes even if you ignore the more subjective statements. But its well produced. And well produced videos sadly are assumed to be correct.
no. just simply criticism that you cant do anything against the sniper isnt true
@@cutx1 better designed doesn't mean hes going to be the best class. It's just obvious that Spy is more fair to fight against than Sniper. Sniper is completely one dimensional. Both in terms of fighting against AND playing as.
@@cutx1also spy was nerfed too hard. Dead ringer not was op after Gun mettle but Jungle inferno killed this weapon constantly. Same to the ambassador. People saying "shpee couldn't be a snipa" but i want another way to deal with sniper when sniper has a pyro bodyguard and 3 sentries near of him.
As a spy main, I like playing him for he reasons you just said, that major risk versus reward, but sniper is on track to becoming my least played class and I don’t know when I last played him. Every other class I have recent memory playing.
.Scout runs around you like that one fly you can’t swat
.Soldier jumps around and shoots rockets at you or hits you with a shovel in mid-air
.Pyro runs straight at the enemy causing panic with his flames
.Demo make big boom
.Heavy mows down groups of players with a big gun
.Engie builds powerful buildings that must be protected
.Medic is constantly in the battle healing his team and pushing with ubers
.Spy has to sneak around and stab distracted players
Sniper... just sits away from the battle and shoots at people, so I never really wanna play him...
playing him makes me feel bad & fighting against him kinda ruins the game for me
Tbh one of the biggest issues with Sniper in my opinion, is that he's supposed to be effective at long range, but weak at close range, which is not the case at all, a Sniper can still kill you with their rifle if you're right next to them, and if that fails, they can switch to their secondary and kill you that way
i mean if you are at low hp and die by the smg he did the right choice, its a close range pistol but dying by a close range headshot that i hardly managed to pass he´s entire ass team and sentry gun? thats bullshit (like imagine if i still have 80% of my hp remaining sorta)
50 damage body shot hitscan weapons without charge, getting to a sniper is hard due to his team so your typically at low heath. So the sniper can just run away and click on you like two times and kill you.
@@tiorast6802And his secondary is reliable. It isn't like he can stop airal movement, take no risk body shots with no fall off, back away with a speed that can't be cought up to easily and can use melee to a very tired, very low hp target with no downsides on his secondary, primary, melee and his entire damn team is there?
Oh wait, There is.
You're saying that like it's the easiest thing on the planet. News flash pal, hitting someone who's shooting you in the head at point blank ain't easy. Those clips you see aren't all that common. Even for the best of snipers, those shots are extremely hard to hit. But I will say that jarate bushwacka is bullshit and should be removed from the game.
@CodeTheProtogen Yeah it is true quickscoping is hard to do and takes a ton of skill. Rather than I remove it I'd say make it take longer. Like after a shot make it so the Sniper has a longer reload. If he hits a quickscope, he lives. If he doesn't, he's as a good as dead. Sounds fair in my opinion.
"You can't just remove a class from the game."
Shounic: Actually...
No way people are using that video to prove this it was so bad.
@@HeDronHeDronHedronI mean it's his hypothesis, he got his information and made a conclusion, though I'm still against removing Sniper though
@@HeDronHeDronHedron why was it so bad?
@@artifactU
didnt account for the sniper mains fun
experiment was only 3 days
experiment didnt have controlled skill levels
experiment DID have limits of medic, which do not exist in casual tf2
people joining the experiment may have been biased towards shounic or against sniper, so they already thought it'd be more fun and never thought it through
@@HeDronHeDronHedron fair enough, i just wanna be able to play tf2 without snipers tbh
This is the counterpoint to having a majority of the classes using projectiles as opposed to hitscan, that is that any class that does have some form of hitscan (especially accurate hitscan) has the innate advantage of speed of dealing damage (at range).
I mean, you are right because the most important frontline classes use projectiles, and all classes but sniper are usually very bad at long range (ignoring issues like Wrangler go brrrr). But, they are not the majority, atleast considering only stock.
Stock Heavy, Scout, Sniper and Engineer use hitscan
Stock Demo, Soldier use projectiles. Stock Pyro technically uses particles, and Medic has the syringe gun but really should always have the medigun out. But in a way they can count for your example.
Stock spy is I guess both hitscan and melee based. With melee of course being also, well, melee ranged.
Of the hitscan classes, the only two good at range are Sniper (it's his job after all) and Engineer (sentry autotracking, the infinite pistol ammo pool for extremely annoying chip damage).
@@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870 Spy is arguably the best non-sniper class at long range because of the fact that the revolver deals a meaty 21 damage at max range. You can do some very significant damage at a very safe range with it, and if you're lucky, a full 6 shots will kill a light class without ever being in any real danger. The wrangler, sure, is quite good at range but a sentry is stationary, so it's easier to prevent yourself from being damaged by it.
I'd argue balance wise that the revolver should just have its spread either reduced a ton or removed in order to make the class a more consistent sniper counter. The most consistent part of Spy's kit has always been the gun if you know how to use it correctly, it would be great if that extended to being consistently good against razorback snipers hiding next to a sentry gun
@@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870 Note that outside of Spy, most hitscan weapons fall off _very_ quickly pass medium range. Pistols and Shotguns have serious spread. You can do damage quick, but 10 damage a shot barely does anything. Heavy's minigun is powerful, but makes him a sitting duck. Meanwhile Spy has the highest damage hitscan weapon at range outside of sniper. At mid range and with accurate shots, he can fight pretty evenly with anyone using a shotgun.
I remember shounic trying an experiment where the sniper constantly has a laser pointing from his head regardless of if he was scoped in or not. It looked like it sorta helped with the interactivity issue as you could mess with sniper’s crosshair placement or just avoid a sightline more easily. Just not sure since I never got the chance to try it out myself.
Yeah I saw that video, it was actually a very interesting concept. It at least lets you know what spot on the map to avoid, but it still doesn't really allow true interaction. He's still making it tough to actually get close to him in a similar way
@@PefectPiePlace2 If you have fun playing as Sniper. Which ... I'm now realizing has never been true for me. I don't like playing Sniper. I like the class itself, but playing Sniper isn't fun for me. It's boring, and winds up leaving me more depressed than I would've been dying as, say, Medic or Heavy, or any other class.
@@MegaGaming11 same
valve really gave mvm snipers a laser to make them fun to fight, but not actual sniper, theyre buggin fr
Perhaps they can put that feature in the source² mod of tf2 thats being made
I find it incredible how despite some of the worst issues and other problems that probably weren't even the developers fault at all, the game as a whole managed to last this long and still be fun as hell overall. Not that the issues can't be fixed, but it's a testemant to how well they designed it overall. That being said, the sniper dot idea is pretty good.
Though I do have to correct on one point, scout is very much a pick class these days, as is trolldier (which can be very terrifying if they're good).
trolldier isnt a class tho
"...You can't remove classes from the game."
Shounic did that about 5 months after this video was posted in a test and everyone agreed the game felt over-all better. Specifically it disallowed people from picking Sniper.
Make of that what you will.
The huntsman sniper is way more fun in my opinion
that allows for heavy dominant meta where he is completely unkillable and just ruins all and every game by simply existing, you would be forced to remove heavy then as well. also medic automatically becomes even stronger even thk he is the strongest class in the game.
i say this as someone who plays both sniper and heavy out of necessity (and tothe point where they are my 3rd and 4th most played classes of all time) because in order to counter heavy on somr maps you need to go heavy yourself and sometimes its better that you go for sniper instead. imo if heavy was somehow rebalanced, then rebalancing the sniper as well would be warranted, maybe making the sniper rifle have a bulley drop and no charge.
@uros7320 Heavy really isn't that dominant with Spy existing. And even if you want to argue that spy is weak, heavy's slow movement still leaves him susceptible to splash damage, especially from corners. Just don't fight him head to head. You really don't need a sniper to do it for you. And he still has the rest of his weaknesses baked into the cake. Those being his speed and need to be in good positioning to be as effective as possible, that doesn't change with sniper being less effective or even gone, since you shouldn't be standing super exposed as a heavy anyways unless you want half the enemy team to gun you down anyways.
And as for Medic being "more powerful", the only difference that comes from removing sniper is that there'd be 8 classes instead of 9 praying on his downfall. Literally every class in the game is out to drop medics. Just makes it less free than shooting him from across the map. If anything it would make medics more confident being in the open, which would make for more interesting plays to drop the med instead of both meds playing safe. I really can't think of much else that would change.
I don't want to delete sniper, I understand why his niche exists and what it does. I just think he is far too powerful in his current state and should be nerfed.
@kennysalty6019 you are just wrong. sure a retarded heavy in 12v12 will be killable by spam from demos ans soldiers and even a spy here and there but try playing valve comp where there are 6 players. heavy slows those games completely, and forces the other team to pick him as well. heavy is my 2nd most played class in comp only because im forced to play him. a good heavy will be aware of the number of players he sees and in comp there are voice coms, so 100% lf the times your team will warn you of a spy decloaking behind you and stuff like that. i have had game on heavy with comp where i went 30 and 0 on payload. that class is extremely unhealthy for the game, just have a medic pocket you with quickfix and you can sustain any damage, position yourself decently and you just hard carry every game to the point that the class looks unfair (which it is). he needs to be reworked in a way where he has less dps because rn he is a big problem.
@uros7320 If you're playing and using Valve Comp as your playing field you're making a mistake. That's a largely dead game-mode with almost no serious or non-serious players. They all migrated to actual 6's with outside tools. It is not a genuinely competitive environment for tf2 despite Valve's efforts to make it so initially. In those games, standard team comp is 1 Med, 2 Scout, 2 Soldier, 1 Demo. Medic aside, all are high damage, high mobility, highly flexible classes. Heavy is lacking in two of those three things, which is super important for sixes. His natural stats nerf him. And this natural team comp disproves that Heavy would be over-abundant anyways, because there's almost never an enemy sniper. Heavy still gets hard bodied by this team composition. You're using a negligible source for your position on this. Sorry if you're ranked Death Merchant, but even Valve largely abandoned the official comp gamemode. And considering what you've told me, you'd probably get eaten alive in scrimms
If you want to make a case for Heavy being "way too good without sniper", you have to talk about the Highlander gamemode type, where more map types are played aside from 5CP. Both teams have one of each of the 9 classes. And even then, Heavy only really stands out on defense when he's positioned correctly. Removing sniper would only broaden the range of good positions, requiring more game-sense on both sides of the field. His natural stats keep back from functioning well anywhere else.
Heavy really doesn't need a rework that nerfs him.
Instant killing sniper rifles work in many games because most other options in those games also can compete at long range (Rifles usually). But in TF2 every single class is focused on short to mid range combat, the only other class weapons that can even try to counter sniper are direct hit or flare guns, but even then the sniper will probably just kill you before the projectile reaches them. Having only one viable long range class in a short range game fucks everything up
Bodyshots charging really is ridiculous when you think about it. Scope in for a few seconds and you can instakill the most important class in the game by clipping his pinkie toe. Even the top competitive Snipers miss headshots all the time and still rack up frags for it.
I don’t play TF2 as often as before and when I play I only do it in MvM but I totally agree, I remember being at the top of the scoreboard by using the Sydney Sleeper and being annoying af, making me a high priority target and making the enemy team come to my team and they always failed
Its annoying too. Full charge just one shots anything. Sniper never should've had guns like that.
Sniper is the literal meaning of introvert
snipers never hit me when i have a stroke on my keyboard
honestly the only way to dodge snipers in an incredibly open map (and by big I mean pkbigcity type of big) is to pick scout and crouch jump every time you jump or double jump, move your mouse like crazy to move you head and screw with the sniper, use the winger for the extra jump height, straif every time you jump, use the bonk for easy crossing, and all around move unpredictably to force the snipers to body shot you
@@Idk-qx1hu Jumping makes headshots easier actually. Cuz in ground you can flick your movement fast and unpredictable-Smashing your keyboard and pressing every button you have like you playing DDR. While jumping,can make one fake out sure. But experienced Sniper can... Easily predict your land after all your double jumps.
So-Jump rarely for a fake out. Move more on the ground and duck.
Atleast a chance to...not lose your 18 killstreak :V
@@Life-pq6lz not if you crouch jump and straif at every jump and do delayed double jumps
*bodyshot*, * hit detection*
@@Idk-qx1hu Bur still...you giving to the pro sniper free seconds of prediction. Cuz-Falling is falling,even with straif. He can make a quick flick. But thats true-You can win some shots.
Remember when the Ambassador was billed specifically as a way to keep Snipers on their toes and counter them? Yeah…
Whiners nerfed the amby into oblivion, lmao.
They also nerfed the DR into oblivion.
Now the skill ceiling for spy is half of what it used to be. All because valve affirmed the whiners crying about encountering skilled players that know how to make the most of a loadout.
I was a spy main back then, 1700 hours playtime on record... Despite people claiming DR spies, or ambassador spies were "OP" i rarely, if ever, lost against them, with other classes, myself... it just takes a bit of knowledge to completely counter spies, but now playing spy feels like sht, and playing against them feels unfair.
They were already fking weak, they had no practical application in competitive, and they nerfed them even more.
I wasn't surprised that they did that though... The reason random crits exist, is specifically to handhold newbies and cater to their every emotional outburst.
And it's this reason why TF2 failed to compete with OW when it released. They ignored long-term, in favour of short-term, they fked up the official application of competitive mode, and that was the final nail in the coffin. That's what robbed the Dev team of their funding.
Now we're stuck with this mess, indefinitely.
@@MyouKyuubi old dr spied was way less skilled than the new one tho? I agree with ambi lowering his skill but the old dr was such an unskilled brainless weapon that honestly deserved it’s nerf. You shouldn’t be able to have almost 100% uptime on a weapon that makes u almost impossible to kill.
@@iUseDemFrapz "old dr spied was way less skilled than the new one tho?"
No... Just cause they knew where ammo packs were located, and actually picked them up, doesn't make them less skilled.
That IS skill... The fact that you werre too much of a noob at the time to go to those ammo packs and hunt them down, THAT IS YOUR LACK OF SKILL REARING ITS HEAD!
"You shouldn’t be able to have almost 100% uptime on a weapon that makes u almost impossible to kill."
And yet, i never had any problems killing those spies, where YOU apparently did. That means YOU were just dogsht at the game, YOU lacked the strategic skill necessary to figure out where the spy would go to replenish his DR charge, YOU lacked the strategic and tactical skill to understand when said spy is msot likely to NOT have his DR active, etc... That is on YOU. That doesn't make the spy OP, it makes YOU brain-dead and skilless.
The DR isn't a skillful tool anymore, because it has NO application in even public servers now... it's fking useless. You feign death ONCE every 30 seconds or something... Thats 30 seconds where the spy WILL die if anybody so much as LOOKS at him funny.
So if you encounter a DR spy nowadays, and you struggle against them? That's because YOU are dogsht, not because the spy is skilled, the spy may or may not be skilled, but with a DR they're helpless, mechanics limits how far skill can take you. And your skilless whining removed the mechanics that made skill a factor for survival for spy. That's why spies are underpowered now, because YOU were too mentally lazy to learn how to deal with them properly.
So excuse me if i have no interest in hearing what some skilless scrublord has to say about the DR.
YOU can shut the fck up!
@@MyouKyuubi ok bro I’m literally 100% certain I am better than you at the game and probably better than you at spy too. The dr was unskilled cuz it’s a get out of jail free card that allows you to compensate for playing poorly. Dr having constant uptime literally meant that old dr spies (especially gun spies) could pretty much never die if they didn’t want to and basically had no risk for going in and doing stupid shit. It allows you to not be punished for making bad plays and that’s inherently unskilled, seems like you were just a bad player who couldn’t pick ur fights and relied on a lame unskilled crutch to compensate for your bad game sense xDD
@@iUseDemFrapz "ok bro I’m literally 100% certain I am better than you at the game and probably better than you at spy too."
yeah congrats, you're better than someone who stopped playing the game like. 6 years ago.
Congratulations, you win the loser award, you still play a dead game that is dead, for a fking reason.
"The dr was unskilled cuz it’s a get out of jail free card"
Wrong... it wasn't a get out of jail free card, it was a get out of jail, if you play well card...
There's a reason i never struggled with DR spies even when they were at their strongest... Because simply going to the nearest ammo pack isn't always good enough, and you could still be lit on fire back then, so pyroes still had 0 issues dealing with spies.
Spies weren't OP, players were just too fking lazy and sucky to learn how to deal with them properly.
Spies weren't a "click 1/2 times to kill" target, so they got pissy, and threw a hissy-fit. They're not OP, just because you can't instantly kill them, newbie.
They're OP, only if they can RELIABLY SOLO THE ENTIRE ENEMY TEAM.
You don't even know what OP means, because you're just a scrublord.
Yes spies were survivable... BECAUSE THEY NEEDED THAT SURVIVABILITY TO BE VIABLE... AT ALL...
"that allows you to compensate for playing poorly."
You assume that using the DR to get away is "playing poorly", what is your metric of success here? What qualifies as "playing well" to you, exactly? You can't accuse someone of playing poorly without having an idea of what is playing well... So then, what is "playing well", hmm?
If your idea of a spy playing well, is camping around with a cloak and dagger, or doing ammo-rounds with a stock invis watch, you're a fking idiot... Those watches do not allow the spy to reliably make a move on enemies, the same way a rockewt launcher allows a soldier to reliably make move on enemies..
Why should all the other classes get to make moves reliably, and not spy? His entire playstyle is risk vs reward, if you allow the spy to get close to begin with, YOU suck, the spy isn't OP just because he can 1-shot you from the back... He's only OP if you can't defend yourself against him, and the DR never prevented that.
You're just salty because you sucked too much to actually kill a DR spy back then.
That is literally all this is... Entitlement, you feel ENTITLED to getting kills on spies... THAT'S the problem.
Even if you didn't kill him, enabling the DR still counts as having dealt with the spy. He still has to go find ammo before he can come back and make another attempt on you, that counts as a respawn timer as far as you're concerned. And if you really want to kill him, you could EASILY find a way to deal with them, by using your head a little bit.
Your entire "get out of jail free card" rhetoric only works, if you assume you have a RIGHT to get a kill on spies... Which you don't.
Simple as that.
"Dr having constant uptime literally meant that old dr spies (especially gun spies) could pretty much never die"
You do not have a right to have spies die just to soothe your ego.
Nobody cares if spies were immortal, could they solo entire teams reliably? No.
So your argument of them being OP, is invalid.
The end.
The fking end! Do you understand?
"and basically had no risk"
Wrong, the DR was never that powerful, spies can't backstab with the DR up, that's when you strike them, you read them... Figure out what they're trying to do, which tells you when they're most likely to have the DR down, then you shoot them.
if you feel cheated out of a kill because they DR'ed, that's just your entitlement rearing it's head... You do not have a right, to get the kill, you must WORK for it.
"doing stupid shit."
Welcome to Team Fortress 2, m*r*n.
Get over yourself. xD
"It allows you to not be punished for making bad plays"
As if you're the arbiter of what constitutes "bad plays"... The nerf was implemented to appease the noobs, EVERY nerf in this game was implemented to appease noobs.
Because that is the balancing philosophy of Team Fortress 2, you fking idiot.
The DR wasn't nerfed because it rewarded bad plays, the DR was nerfed TO REWARD BAD PLAYERS FOR BEING SO BAD AT THE GAME THEY CAN'T FIGURE OUT HWO TO DEAL WITH A DR SPY.
Fking wake up newbie.
"seems like you were just a bad player"
Achieve middle-rank in Highlander competitive, and you can start talking sht about what a good spy player is/does.
Until then, you're just a scrublord. You don't know how weak spies are, because you've never actually played the game competitively, and that's the only reason you're spouting this horsesht from your mouth.
"who couldn’t pick ur fights and relied on a lame unskilled crutch"
Ah yes, bad gamesense is exactly why i could vanish from a players eyes without even using the DR, by circling around him 2 times and rounding a nearby corner, and win 90% of spy-offs, even against multiple spies back in the day. :P
You have no idea what you're talking about bro.
For me it’s the extremely long respawn time relative to the quick time to kill. You can die in a fraction of a second and then have to wait half a minute to respawn. I’m not saying no respawn time is optimal but it shouldn’t be over like 10 seconds on offense
One of the first changes I always like to suggest for sniper is to have his headshot damage have inverse ramp up at close range, so at long range it's normal HS damage and at close it falls down quickly, effectively taking away from sniper's ability to roll for a random crit style luck headshot at close range and save his ass when caught out. It doesn't change his design flaws mentioned here, sure, but it does actually make him more vulnerable when he's supposed to be. In an ideal world where changes focused on that are being made I would expect other things like his melee crits would be seeing major adjustments too.
It really is just bad design on valve's part for sniper to basically have no weaknesses other than enemy snipers. The closest thing to being an actual threat to him at long range that isn't from a sniper is debuff stuff like the cleaver or scorch shot, and those really aren't easy to land at long range - not to mention the sniper can easily just duck away and often find healing to live through it anyway. He's not the only class in the game with huge power problems on weapons (you mentioned sticky launcher and that's pretty much the best example for this, though not the only) but he is just the most straightforward in both the issues of how it functions and how to counterplay it.
I think sniper's flaws in actual interaction are best noted in how stale his weapon pool is. He has the smallest overall and nearly none change his playstyle almost at all. It's mostly the secondaries that do, and they're less overall playstyle changes and more "your playstyle doesn't need to account for x weakness (spy, pyro, chip damage) while using this".
I would love more variety, like if the bushwacka appropriately did something to weaken his primaries like make all headshots mini crit, making the sleeper a go to with it since it doesn't lose out there, and then have the danger shield have a closerange piss related mechanic so that the combo overall fits a more aggressive, close range, spy reminiscent playstyle but makes him weak with long range. There would be a lot more changes needed to balance that idea out in general but it's a thought I had and it really made me realize just how stale and similar basically every item in every sniper slot is and how they all conform to playing one way and i felt like playstyle changes beyond a bow and arrow were good suggestions to also make people realize how monotonous sniper items are.
the sticky launcher ramp up nerf deserved to stay but people bitched that the defense weapon couldn’t be used offensively and it got reverted. while heavy was made borderline useless from accuracy and damage ramp up for 2 years.
@@cheese1008 yeah the sticky launcher was pretty obviously built intentionally to be an annoying overpowered piece of shit and I don't really get why valve did that. Not to mention even if you consider only its "intentional" design (sticky traps) it's the literal exact same problem of sniper that is "Oh I walked into a bad area and I had no warning this danger was present here. I am now dead instantly."
i think the main problem of not interacting with the rest of the team is "solved" with huntsman. It forces you to be amongst your team to land those headshots that are practically rng if you're too far away. "solved" in quotations because you dont have to pick the huntsman and can just equip any sniper rifle
I mostly agree, but the rng headshots and the stupid hit boxes with this thing is the massive problem I have with it. There isn’t much stopping a sniper from just sitting at a choke point and spamming arrows at the area where most classes heads will be if they pass through.
@@tophatanimations4729the thing is that it's balanced by being a projectile rather than hitscan like the rifles, and also being better at medium to close range. if the huntsman wasn't so generous with its shots, it'd be extremely infuriating to actually hit them. I think the issue of headshots being so easy to land should definitely be fixed, but I think the way they handle it otherwise (letting it hit as long as it hits the bounding box) is good.
imo the best sniper rework idea ive heard other than removing him is replacing all of the rifles with ghe huntsman
A case of the devs not believing the players could get this good.
At this point, no reason to not start practicing and playing sniper.
You hit the nail on the head.
You're one of the first people on RUclips that talks about problem with Sniper. It's not Quickscopes, that the fact that he can one shot you from across the map and his design is the opposite of the rest of TF2.
Instead of instant shooting you, there should be like a bullet traveling mechanic, at lest that will take skill and though, more than aiming a cross the map and deleting a scout just leaving spawn
Quickscopes are the big part of problem though.
Sniper range is supposed to be balanced by reduced vision, yet it is not because quickscopes exist.
Sniper is supposed to be weak at clos range, yet he is not because quickscopes exist.
@@skipperg4436 His strength at close range is only a problem because he completely dominates at long range. Imagine how hard and shit sniper would be if he had to rely on closer range quickscopes. It's also one of the most difficult parts of sniper is the close range quickscopes.
At 8:52 you could also say that engineer is also overpowered beacause he can deny areas with his sentry (mostly half of the map while at a safe distance)and he is very good in a map with fewer flanks,oppresive areas,in a team of coordinated players or multiple of them.
And the engineer can build a dispenser to keep healing his sentry and his teammates also doing the medic's job.
Kid named The Classic sniper rifle
All I’m saying is, two simple fixes to the base sniper rifle stats is all sniper needs.
1. Either reverse falloff or something like -50% damage within a certain range, to make sniper actually weak at close range
2. Add a laser that points to wherever the sniper is aiming. The laser would only appear when scoped in and would become more opaque as the sniper’s charge increases.
Wouldn't fix the engagement issue, but I would appreciate not being randomly quick scoped whenever I do decide to make the 5 hour commute to go kill an enemy sniper on a class that isn't sniper.
isn't the laser pointer already a thing?
@@Hugonche29 yes but it should be part of every sniper rifle and should be a line that follows the sniper’s line of sight, and not just a dot on a wall that you may or may not be able to see
just make headshots require full charge
@@SnrubSource You can actually already do this, there are guides to movement everywhere on youtube and if you watch them and implement their strategies the sniper can no longer close range headshot you.
I thought this was going to be about how in pubs ppl can just pick any class with no thought for team composition, meaning you end up with 6 sniper, 2 spies and no medic. Good video nonetheless
The freedom to play whichever class you want and still be able to have fun regardless of your team is a carefully made decision by valve and is a key part of why tf2 survived this long.
You are not bound to your teammates performing their duties like supports in overwatch to accomplish something. You are free to just get in a server and fuck around however.
@@obliviouscrab3125 amen brother amen
My teams:
noob spies
stupid engineers
Gibus heavy
Suicide medics
Bad snipers
Enemy teams:
Pro scouts
Pocket medic with black box soldier
Main spy
Sticky spammer demoman
Furry pyro
@@caveiraverde123 and yet as a good player you can still slap fools into oblivion as you are not bound by your team
Forcing players to choose a class in a casual game will just be like the spy doing a backflip with a noose on him. Absolutely no player would want that.
Man, this video kinda makes me rethink that old Reddit post of the 10 year old saying they should make sniper rifles shoot projectiles
at least then you might have a chance to dodge it, and that's at least a bit more interactive and less frustrating then undodgeable hitscan.
as someone whos experience with tf2 ended at being a backup medic in a single highlander game and getting a silver medal in 2005.
the sentence "Pyros airblast prevents you from air-strafing, which makes it impossible for the blast-jumping classes to outplay the airblast is certain scenarios"
actually sent me into a psychotic episode.
Oh Christ, here we go....
Time to watch people get extremely defensive over the one class you can't have an opinion about unless it's "get good"
Edit: After watching this a few times through, you forgot to mention why Sniper is so easy aside from hitting bodyshots. You (more or less) stated that every class participates this run-and-gun game with their own mechanics and abilities, that can be mastered over thousands of hours of play. The interactivity of the other 8 classes, paired with mechanical impedance to curb their powerful abilities (Demoman's reload, Medic's long uber charging rate, Spy's risk and source jank, interacting with other player's skill in at medium to close range IN GENERAL, etc.) allows for them to blend seamlessly together.
Sniper? His only mechanic/ability is simply "click on head or body to win." That doesn't take much to pick up, but it takes a lot to mitigate, since his only impedance is a lack of raw, mechanical skill. He's rarely impeded by the skill of other players (aside from another Sniper) thanks to his range. You don't need to know how to move (aside from the second scope shuffle as I call it). You don't need to play with your team. You don't need to learn optimal positioning or timing (aside from "be behind team, peek sightline"). You don't even need to understand the most basic yet intricate mechanics in TF2 to play the class.
The more time you dump into any class, you learn how to mitigate impedances, but you can never be rid of all of them, naturally, otherwise the game would be a wreck. Sniper becomes oppressive because his only major impedance is raw skill (and his other minor impedances are removed by his secondaries and map design). Hence, easy. You don't need to learn much to be good at Sniper. You don't need to do much to be good at Sniper aside from dumping in thousands of hours into clicking heads, his only mechanic, which is far easier to do than say, dumping thousands of hours into Spy, Demoman, Pyro...all of which require far more in order to expect a similar level of effectiveness.
Sniper's design IS inherently flawed. He does not fit in this game, and never has. People have been saying what you have for YEARS, including myself. There's no point in stating Sniper's issues, nothing is ever going to change, balance wise. Valve has checked out of TF2 indefinitely.
However, the salt factory that this comment section will inevitably turn into will let you easily pick out the Sniper mains so you can point and laugh at their emaciated wrists. No one ever reads these long comments (trust me, I don't either) but if you made it this far thank you for reading my TED talk.
"Respect the sightline bro, just ignore the payload cart if I'm looking at it"
Yeah I think I agree with everything you saod tbh. He's very one dimensional, which most other classes aren't. Even heavy is less one dimensional because movement as a slow class is STILL important and his close range interactions add depth that sniper lacks.
My biggest motivation for making this video is that I always see comments like "at least sniper is hard" when he honestly truly isn't in my opinion
Based(64), southern white uncle.
Pretty much what I wanted to say, but explained in greater details.
As other commenters have pointed out, an actual way to fix sniper would be to give him a laser showing his line of sight exactly (as seen in Shounics video), because it allows you to have much more interaction with the sniper. You know EXACTLY where hes pointing at any time, you'd never be clueless if he is about to shoot you in the head, and you would be able to much more precisely dodge him.
It’s true. When you think about it, every class has a design flaw that is put intentionally to be countered by other classes.
Heavy’s slow speed
Medic’s lack of offense
Scout’s low health
Etc.
But sniper, despite having the same health as scout, is only countered by 1 thing in general:
His own aim.
Nah, Sniper used to be heavily countered by Spy, but then they gave him Razorback. I remember even picking Spy often to counter a dangerous Sniper, but now, with Razorback just existing, I don't even think about the idea, cause why bother if he probably will have it equipped.
@@patrykzukowski7471 what? you can just shoot him. it's super easy most of the time, and if you pick your moment, you can put the third shot and he will not even have moved
Their aim is far from the only thing, Their hearing, brain n lack of situational awareness is the thing i see killing most snipers
@@patrykzukowski7471 go dragons fury jet pack pyro to instantly make the sniper not consider any secondary other than the “shield of go fuck yourself v2”
Sarcasm aside that is valid criticism expexcaly because NOT ONLY does he have TWO secondary’s that counter the most reliable ways to kill a sniper outside of mirror matchups, he could also just get a pyro butt-buddy to counter both at the same time AND let him use a secondary that is more useful in the general sense
Seriously who the hell sincerely thinks sniper is balanced and has counters that just always demolish him and are not situational at all or nullified by the sniper not failing the quick time event of shooting the other dudes head
@@GoodlyData86596 Yeah. I mean I like what he adds to the game, I just don't like his potential and the stupid decisions to add counters to counters that ultimately make the class less interesting to play and play against.
my favorite 2 lines to use are "you died as spy? pick better spy" and "you died as sniper? pick better sniper"
My sniper balance idea is this: A zoomed in sniper suffers no damage fall off. Well, give him a taste of his own medicine. When zoomed in, any attacks against the sniper have no damage fall off. So scoped in sniper takes big damage. And getting hit while scoped in undoes all charge.
Now many classes in the game can shoot back at the sniper and not get headshot as long as their accuracy is good. If a Heavy sees a sniper, he can focus his minigun on the sniper and the sniper will not be able to kill the Heavy. Now the sniper needs his teammates to draw heavy's fire so the sniper can kill the heavy. I think this makes the sniper more interactive, right? Because any class with a gun can now surpress the sniper, but those classes need to prioritize their targets based on who is more dangerous, the sniper or the frontline classes.
huh... that's actually kind of an interesting concept that i haven't seen many people discuss, it actually sounds pretty balanced.
maybe make it apply all the time so its not countered by quickscoping. but that would bring back the ambys ability to counter sniper without being anoying for everyone else
Sniper is not the problem child in TF2.
But the whole FPS genre.
it seems like multiplayer FPS developers don't understand what snipers are.
most FPS titles portray them as long-range campers, when actual snipers are more like long-range flankers.
they usually have instakill suppression fire which, in some cases, doesn't even require headshots.
@@badideagenerator2315 example?
@@franagustin3094 what do you want an example of?
@@badideagenerator2315 Of an sniper that you said its
@@franagustin3094 ok now i'm even more confused about what you mean
I like the idea of giving sniper a dim laser pointer that would be seen when he was scoping (not just a point, but an entire line); this is as interactive as it gets for a long-range class.
this was done in a video by shounic, it drastically increased the interaction between snipers and other players, although a problem with it is sniper's ability to deal 150 damage without charging.
@@badideagenerator2315 Easy fix:
Make any non-headshots only do 25 damage, and remove the charge-up mechanic.
Fixed.
@@MyouKyuubi i'm not sure how nerfing bodyshots has any effect on his ability to quickscope headshot.
@@badideagenerator2315 Reward skill, punish bad playing.
of course, to achieve this, we would also remove random crits, it's an abomination that should not exist.
Quickscoping isn't the problem, my man, neither are headshots. The problem, is charging up shots, to insta-kill most classes with with bodyshots, or to instakill heavy with a single headshot, it's cheap, it feels crap, and it gives you undeserved kills and undeserved points on the scoreboard.
Getting killed with skill, feels great, getting killed with cheap, lazy, gimmicks, does not.
It fixes the problem by improving the overall feel and experience of the game.
If you think that a skilled sniper, quickscoping a HEADSHOT to instakill a low-health class is a bad thing... You're a anti-skill crybaby noob that should stfu. -Sincerely, a Spy main.
@@MyouKyuubi meh, for me could be a reverse ambassador at close range he can´t do a quick scope on you, if you managed to get close to him, he should rely on he´s smg or melee do deal with you, specially if he is protected by he´s team or its a razorback user
The virgin “quickscoping long range instakiller”
Vs the chad “uses huntsman and classic based on principle”
at least with the huntsman, if you get killed by it, you can play pyro and go "check this shit" and hit a sick reflect that gives you +3 street cred
Sniper's gameplay illicits skill, sure, but the problem is that his gameplay is also capable of just completely shutting down any and all resistance from the enemy team
It's why Sniper Aimbots are so commonplace
and the only counter-argument i see most of the time is legit something around the lines of *_NO IT DOESN'T YOU'RE LYING_*
Now I’m just thinking back to that Fishstickonastick moment where he tried to argue that “a demon man making a sticky trap is equal to a sniper, sniping you from across the map”
which video did he say that in?
Yeah that's a terrible take. Since it's significantly more predictable where traps will be than where snipers can see you from, and it requires you to entirely stop using your stickybomb launcher while the trap is active, so you have to disable the best weapon in the game from your kit. And you have to constantly watch the trap
@@anafu-sankanashi8933 I can’t remember off the top of my head, it may of been a steam highlight, or maybe in his “why sniper isn’t over powered video”
@@htwo1 he is a self admitted sniper main, so it’s lots of “no no guys look sniper isn’t a really easy and strong class, honest!”
@@braedenmclean5304 he doesnt have a why sniper isnt overpowered video, he has a what is exactly wrong with sniper video, where we discusses his problems with the class and some changes that could be implemented. and the only time ive ever seen him complain about sticky traps was in his phlog video, where the whole moment was played of as a joke.
also, he says sniper isnt easy since even for seasoned sniper mains like him, consistent and quick headshots are a skill issue. and i dont think he's ever not called sniper strong or down right unfun to fight. he dislikes snipers bushwacka combo, dislikes the bazaar bargain for its game breaking power, finds all the backpack items like danger shield and razorback to be broken in bad ways and made an entire video on why jarate is brainlessly easy to spam and use with little to no risk.
scout's definitely a pick class and idk why people don't acknowledge it other than him being a generalist (but that's unrelated). soldier can be too, but definitely a power class, it's just the fact he can easily sac on a single target with high mobility and burst damage but doing so can leave him w/ little health and clip left. pick classes can easily get in a position to kill a single target at a time by range, mobility, invisibility, etc but are poor at immediate area denial and can be forced to retreat or be rushed down easily. power classes have things like splash damage, high ammo pools, high health pools, but lack free mobility or means of positioning themselves in battle for any specific target.
Ye I was surprised he didnt include Scout, but oh well, his point got across anyway
So is trolldier a pick class?
@@ret_ard_ kindof, but that's a subclass, not a whole one
Ehhhh, Scout can definitely *pick*, but I'm not sure if it counts since Scout can do more than pick. Spy using his revolver or Sniper with SMG is just kinda mediocre. Their entire design is based around backstabs and headshots.
Like, Soldier is normally a generalist with his rockets and banners, but only becomes a "pick" if he goes full trolldier, because he can't do anything else but single target elimination.
@@Appletank8 then what else can scout do other than pick. Im talking about stock btw
I have to say you got every single complaint I had to sniper
When I do play sniper (admittedly this is due to always wildly shaking my mouse in an attempt to predict the target's movement) I have the most fun using the smg and kukri or jarate and bushwacka, because it turns out that if you position yourself correctly in fights that can go kind of well. With the jarate and bushwacka I like to play more like a non invis spy, flanking and then killing stray enemies.
I once renamed myself “I am the spy” and would sneak up behind people and jarate crit them.
@@TJ-hg6op that's gold! 😂 Man
Ah yes, the choppa subclass
@@fort809 is that what it's called? 😂 Love that name
i agree with this so much, but every time i bring up how sniper is wildly unbalanced and easy, i am drowned out out by no life sniper mains who somehow find getting skill-free kills against players who literally have no way to counter you enjoying. at some point id almost be glad if he got removed
I use the Sydney Sleeper for the meme. Sydney, Jarate, Bushwacka and the Yellow Master's Belt. People tend to laugh about it more than be upset
You're not wrong, but calling spy a "high reward" class is a bit pushing it lmao
It is to an extent, picking a medic or some pub stomper and he'll that satisfying backstab is considered high rrwardt
@@RandomFurry07 I'd argue that with how unbelievably risky and unfair the class to play, even a medic pick is nowhere near the reward he deserves for the mental trauma you will get playing this class.
Demo can be long range if you’re wacky enough
hybrid knight can be long range if you are a special kind of wacky
instead of launching stickies from a range, launch yourself and ooga booga whoever's annoying you
@@commanderdemonno9819 I used to play hybrid all the time but I use stickies now to be more versatile with the class. I strictly snipe using the grenade launcher I don’t do long distance cringe with the stickies.
0:32 wasn't this more likely an uber than a random crit? since your kill was assisted
See, I don't play on random crit servers so this was my best clip for it but yeah you're right, it's a Kritzkrieg uber.
I was hoping nobody would notice but congrats on being the first haha
As someone who usually finds himself playing snipers in most shooters I do play, I really love Splatoon's sniper laser point. It really forces you to be sneaky, practice not only ur aim but also ur flicks and reactions since just pointing and clicking won't cut it since u are giving urself away when u are aiming. I have tried TF2's sniper but he doesn't really speaks to me the same way Demo does, and I think that lack of interactivity is what really does it.
my man forgot about the kunai and dead ringer combo that makes him an inmortal motherfucker but yeah let's call unbalanced the only class that never gets random crits from his primary weapons
I always felt like Sniper gets screwed over is well... skill. A player can't destroy as sniper if he can't hit the broad sign of a barn.
You don't really need to destroy or aim all that well if you keep your eye on the objective, which people have to just stand on, and blast them every few seconds. Compare to spy, if they mess up, they get blasted from 360 degrees. If a sniper misses a long range shot, whoops, they'll get try again in 4 seconds. The only time a sniper is punished for missing is a counter-sniper or not noticing someone run up to them, and the second one can be mitigated if they just squat on a sentry or pyro.
funny thing is that i initially wanted to main sniper because of the dopamine rush i could get from a one tap, but like you said, he is map dependent. meaning that i have to play in specific maps if i wanted to master him, some what making him boring to play as rather than requiring skill and risk, it's instead more "i need to find sweet spot to camp". i ultimately switch to scouts as i'm less limited in the map pool and that one tapping isn't a guaranty.
Good snipers can do well no matter what the map is, you just didn't stick with him long enough to get good enough to be able to dom any map
@@andybogdan4380 yeah I was just about to say this. In casual scout is borderline useless on like over half the maps. I get sniper is limited on some maps but compared to scout it’s not even close.
then there's the huntsman, which is sometime broken and sometimes the worst weapon pick depending on how your hands feel that day
This is one of the few instances it makes me wish the tomislav had more accuracy, just to spite the sniper, I've been able to annoy snipers with the tomislav, but it's usually a dumb idea and I only do it when I'm somehow caught in his crossfire with "die like a coward or die with a funny tango and maybe survive"
Sniper is literally just a random crit from the perspective of the player who died to him I really hope that some day someone will say enough is enough and make community servers that disable this mistake of a class.
idk why there arent any no sniper community servers yet i feel like theyd be extremely popular
I genuinely feel scummy playing sniper sometimes, but I love the huntsman. Sure it can feel cheap when you get accidental kills but it feels like you can get closer and more interactive with the carnage with huntsman
Always thought it was weird that sniper never had to fully charge up to hit a headshot. He can just turn a corner and instakill a scout; did the devs not think players would get that good?
the classic exists
but the classic controls differently and it's trigger mechanic should be on anything but a sniper.
the same devs that shipped pyro without airblast on release? yeah
@@chocox6491 same devs that shipped engineer without the ability to move buildings and upgrade anything other than a sentry
maybe they thought quick scopes were cool, because not even air shotting soldiers feels good as a close range scout kill
never got why people whine so much on sniper. just go destroy the game with being so op if it's so easy as people seem to think
As a Sniper Main, I can confirm we are fuckin broken m8, n it is a little easy I wont argue that, but he can be fun when your aim doesnt decide to kill itself, but his easy nature and not much involvement in a fight is what makes me choose different classes such as Scout or Soldier or Engie so I can be more interactive, and now when I play Sniper I try to put myself in the middle of the action to give the enemy team more of a chance
getting 1 shot by spy doesnt always feel fun, but most of the time it feels *fair*
getting 1shot by sniper is almost never fun and very rarely *feels* fair
i had the most FRUSTRATING conversation in a discord a couple months ago regarding a real situation that happened to me in a match.
Picture, if you will, badwater 2nd point. Normally this is a fairly easy push for blue as they maintain momentum from 1st point. One small issue though: the enemy had a godly sniper on their team who was holding down the point HARD. It was impossible to outsnipe him except with a vac medic on my side - and that usually resulted in him being dead and my team now without a medic, meaning we were unable to push effectively. There were not enough players on either team for double med to be viable.
One might say, "oh, surely you could have just dropped on him as scout/soldier/demo from the top flank route?
WRONG! They had pyros *dedicated* to airblasting anyone who attempted that.
Did I also mention that they had an engineer nest just out of the way of the main corridor to also shoot at anyone who tried to flank from the top, or in case they somehow managed to push through the sniper sightline? As well as a medic to top everyone off just in case.
And to add insult to injury, the guy was truly disgustingly aware of everything, because even when I tried to bomb him by cross-map jumping with the beggars, he would bodyshot me and kill my momentum, allowing the previously mentioned sentry to finish me off by the time I landed.
Now, about the conversation I mentioned at the beginning. I vented about it in a discord server, and I was met with basically a whole bunch of "skill issue."
Should've just organized a push better (nevermind the fact that we would've had to pop uber before even rounding the corner on the main sightline, wasting precious seconds).
Should've all pushed from the flank (we did and got airblasted back and pushed back by the sentry).
Should've flanked him (impossible).
Should've outsniped him (not viable).
Should've gone spy (we did. The pyros spychecked).
The reason this conversation was so frustrating was that they just could NOT see that the reason this situation was unwinnable was solely due to the sniper. Had he been any, and i mean ANY other class, an uber push through the main corridor would've been enough, I'm absolutely positive. There is simply no way any other class can completely deny a sightline like that.
Not to mention - isn't it kind of telling that they had a sentry and pyros dedicated to covering the sniper? Does that not scream unfair? That a SINGLE class's presence can COMPLETELY alter a defence is ABSURD. Their defence was solid and they really took advantage of a poorly designed choke, I will give them that. But their defence was not absolute, at least, not without the sniper.
No class should be able to singlehandedly deny a point. To believe that sniper is fine and see an example like that and still continue to believe that sniper should even remain in the game is insanity beyond my comprehension.
This was a well informed video, well done! I really appreciate that there's somebody out there who shares the same views on Sniper, in that simply changing number values for balance wouldn't solve the over-arching issue of the class
It's always been curious to me that sniper never got a true windup time to his headshots. The reload is extremely short even compared to other snipers in other games, and the charge mechanic is only restrictive against a little less than half the roster most of the time, and even then only slightly. In TFC they had you fully charge a shot before being able to headshot which got around that a little, but you also had okay close range options there too.
Maybe they chose not to add a similar barrier for that reason here, but I can't help but feel a small baseline charge requirement would help people be able to close the distance a touch, or at least lob enough shit to push them out of the sightline.
A main issue with the sniper class, that has been covered so far is the risk/reward ratio.
As a sniper, you're not punished for missing a shot, you simply wait that single second to fire your next.
Unlike any 1v1 dm situation with rest of classes, missing a meatshot with any of the weapons (such as pipe launcher, stock scattergun etc), could very well lead to your death in that 1v1.
Snipers just stays out of the combat, and as a result, when no one is firing at them (for any significant damage anways, since fall-off damage), you are not punished.
The worst part about this, is if you are the one being fired at, you have no indication of that until you are hit (most often leading to an instant-death).
Imo, a simple solution to this would be to simply add the machina firing ray on all the sniper rifles.
With that suggested change, someone would know if they are being targeted (if missed), allows a player to respond to whats happening (take duck and cover for example) and as a result the sniper is punished (similuar to the Spy class), that your target is now aware of you.
Without said suggested change, you can keep firing away at a target, without them knowing it.
On a wild comparisons note, valve wouldn't give the Spy knife infinite range, allowing insta-kills from the other side of the map, meaning you aren't aware of your impending doom before you are dead, and not alerted of a failed attempt (since a melee swing ripping air molecules from across the map isn't detectable).
Now that the community has developed quite a lot since the release of the game, this is becomming more apparant of an issue of how fundamentally broken and OP the sniper class is.
Final note, there is a reason all of the cheating bots picks the sniper class above all others.
lmao "Upward is well known for its Australian tourism industry" is almost funny enough to make me less mad at the snipers having a line deep into BLU spawn. *almost*.
It’s like the sniper said. “That was you - very full of yourself. Then, very briefly surprised. Then, dead.” That’s the balance issue, right there.
I have been feeling this for a long time and I have thought about this. I have a potential fix that will make sniper fit in, and it is very simple:
Make the sniper's gun work like the Kraber from Titanfall 2. Hear me out
This would make the gun projectile based, but not like the huntsman. It should feel like a bullet, with bullet drop and some delay. Maybe add some damage fallout.
The zoom should be greatly reduced (maybe aim down sight)
This should be balanced such:
1: Long range gameplay requires more skill and becomes more impractical
2: Snipers will position themselves closer to the front line
3: They are putting themselves at risk by being closer to the front line
Tweaks would have to be made, but it's just an idea
My perfect world would have sniper removed.
Yeah, unfortunately the problem with sniper isn't his sniper rifle, it's the fact that a "sniper" class just doesn't interact well (or at all) with the other classes, you can't really fix sniper without him no longer being a, well... sniper.
It doesn't help maps where Sniper is weaker in are less fun for every other class anyway
Here is a balance idea with the goal of increasing fun: players killed by a sniper primary will respawn quicker. This can either be a percentage of the normal time, or something like respawning right when the kill screen disappears. Also make snipers have a longer respawn time so that sniper picks are more valuable, especially if another class can get it.
this is the definition of a band-aid solution
yeah no
“Sniper is easy” meanwhile sniper being in my least played class because I find in the 2nd hardest to play
It's kinda like the pyro case, yes you can do some very high skill ceiling shit, but w m1 is just as good and way easier. The sniper has an option to be less skill based but also effective, body shots are dumb.
Snipers in just about every game is not very fun to fight against, and the issue is interaction. So maybe encourage him to get closer, damage fall off would help with that. Maybe have the sniper rifle be kinda like the ambassador, it's difficult to make snipers more fun to fight against, but it's possible. take for example the ambassador.
Well said. Most gamers do not put enough stock into understanding the massive edge that a range advantage gives a weapon. Sniper already has a massive ranged advantage, he doesnt need a ttk advantage too.
One thing you didn't mention was how Sniper has the most 'counters to his softcounters' out of all classes. Jarate/bushwhacka for flankers, razorback for backstabs, DDS for afterburn harassment with flareguns, cozy camper for scope jitter and chip damage, ext...
The few sniper nerfs I've come up with that make sniper just... better. And you'd have to give him most of these.
1. Rifle base damage to 25, charge increases damage to 6x instead of 3x. Now sniper can no longer quickscope kill any class, and can't quickscope/noscope any class without them equipping health reduction items. Yes he can still full charge bodyshot, but now his shot interval is now once 5.5 seconds at least, instead of 1.75.
2. DDS no longer has afterburn immunity.
3. scope jitter is now random with random intervals instead of being the consistent thing it is now, and it doesn't reset back at center.
4. Sniper now has a much, much more visible laser at all times showing where he is looking instead of the little subtle dot he has now.
OR
Sniper max hp is now 100, meaning a direct pipe or sticky or rocket or amby is instant death.
I actually like the hp nerf! If you're going to stay back and take shots from Mt. Everest, it's only fair to be decimated if someone else makes the climb.
, i think would be fair If the Headshot crit was replaced for minicrits or even losing the ability to Headshot when the Sniper is close to someone or way too much Far away, If the Sniper is Bad or insecure He would Take His time, If He is good He would be slighthly near the Battle , giving mire interactivity w the class , He could be killed more easily but one Hit kill would still be a thing, for the dds Just make the afterburn do less dmg and the anti Backstab Just give Sniper Dr If Shooted on the back, It would create a Nice dinâmica between the snipers, shoot and do a 360 to avoid being killed, If you kill you kill with style
Considering Sniper is barely used in comp already your nerfs would make him rarely used even in pubs.
I think giving sniper a visible laser like how mvm sniper works is already a huge nerf for it, sure they may got one or two kill but the laser gonna signal the enemy team to storm the sniper hiding place or forcing them to play high mobility classes such as jumping soldier, demoman, or flanking spy and scout.
And also 50% damage reduction on quickscope.
@@stevecarrot visible laser after full charge or 1 second in scope is fine. Dont think they should nerf quickscope considering sniper has literal better options than quickscoping, its just for panic or being cool. Plus that will ruin sniper v sniper fights and be like when Darwins was trash
It's not that hard to be effective at all of the classes if you just have an idea of what the game is about.
Sniper is not overpowered if you consider that medic can make someone literally invulnerable for 8 seconds, pyro cannot be hit by a single projectile, demo is demo, soldier can end up on the other side of the map and be a nuisance from behind, Engineer with a slightly competent team is immovable (Same issue with sniper).
Despite it being frustrating that a sniper killed you without snipers the game would devolve into mindless Uber trading from the medics if he wasn't there.
- Sincerely, a medic main
Tl:Dr; TF2 players don't complain about snipers impossible challenge
1:13
The Devs NEVER said it's to break stalemates, Random Crits exist to allow a Pubstomper to stomp pubs harder
The devs SAID it's made to break stalemate, and "create those "rare high moment" when a guy go on a 1 man army spree and killing multiple enemy at once". Ever load up a developers commentary map in TF2?
@@45.chuminh81
"Critical hits are one of the features that resulted from our focus on pacing. The Critical hits system attempts to slightly influence the highs and lows of the game by increasing the chance of a Critical hit based on the player's recent performance. In summary, the better you're doing the more likely you'll continue to do well. This helps create those rare high moments where a single player goes on a rampage and gets three or four kills in rapid succession."
This is the quote in it's entirety, where are stalemates ever cited?
@@Fosforobl4nco
Did you read my comment backwards?
@@maskofthedragon ?sdrawkcab tnemmoc ym daer uoy diD
@@maskofthedragon honestly the original comment is the best summary of what that dev said that I've ever heard. I never really understood what the 'rare high moments' joke meant until I saw that comment
I don't know how effective it would be at making him less oppressive, but I think a way to fix sniper could be to give him damage fall-off like everyone else, like Overwatch did with Widowmaker.
If generally, Sniper is more oppressive than Spy, I think it's really strange how there aren't any "Sniper ahead!" voice lines in the game to warn teammates of his sightline.
oh boy someone said "sniper isnt a perfectly balanced class and could use some nerfs" here come the fat and sweaty head-clickers
Funke made a pretty good video about this problem, but also talked about generalists. The video was about generalists vs specialist. I recommend checking it out, high quality.
2:19 onward: I'm sure there's a plugin that disables specific classes - I'm pretty sure the XBL version of the game even gave that option to match hosts - but if not, there's also a plugin that lets server owners make adjustments to classes' base HP. I actually use that very plugin on my server to slightly nerf & buff the sniper & spy respectively!
100 hp sniper, 150 hp spy, im guessing? 100 hp sniper would at least let godly demos one shot them with a pipe. if notthat, then im curious what the changes are
Any time I try and play Sniper, I use the Sleeper. Mostly so I can play him as *Support.*
random sniper suggestions, just spitballing. some of these ideas better than others
-add an ADS speed time
-make it so he properly has to cycle the bolt after every shot so it takes longer to get shots out
-make it so he actually has to reload his magazine
-reduce his ammo pool
-classic tracer rounds on all his snipers
-visible laser when he is scoped in that becomes clearer and more visible the closer you get to it
-audible laser sound effect plays when he's trying to line up a shot on you
-scope glint of some sorts
-increase the effectiveness of chip damage against him so he can't headshot if he's taking damage
The thing that makes me mad is that they nerfed the caber when the sniper still exists
Personally I always liked playing sniper as a close ranged combat class.
I used the hitman's heatmaker and would try to go for close range quick scopes, occassionally using it like a machinegun once my meter was full.
I personally, as someone who also mains Heavy and Medic, that there are actually ways to counter sniper, just that they're not as obvious as counters to other classes.
Most classes can lift their weapons and turn slightly, covering their head hitbox, sometimes completely.
A well timed "MEDIC!" puts your hand infront of your face, blocking the shot, and if that don't work, simply flanking them can also work wonders since their playstyle, especially when charging can be very tunnel vision inducing.
Him being a "long ranged class in a game for close ranged ones" isn't really as much of a problem as his effectiveness therein.
All of the classes have a similar area of power, so to speak.
Heavy is the tankiest.
Soldier and Demo both are pretty easy to use thanks to their explosives both dealing splash damage and knocking their opponents around enough to prevent them from retaliating.
Scout's speed and ability to capture points at double speed make him an annoyingly powerful class in back capping as your team is distracted.
And Engineers are truly a beautiful clusterfuck of why-the-hell?, capable of halting any game to a stand-still, even more effectively than a sniper could.
However, I do agree that the sniper should be changed to make him more interactive or at least less difficult to counter.
Among the ideas others have presented, I think the best one would be to remove his charge.
It would make Heavy playable.
It would force Snipers to actually get good at the thing their class was meant for, and they could now be countered as classes that could cover the distance like Demo and Soldier wouldn't be immediately taken out mid flight by a measely bodyshot.
there's a tf2 inspired game on roblox called "the flappy men" where the sniper class is more or less the same, exept he lacks the ability to charge up shots, his rifle uses projectiles and most classes have more health, meaning he can only 1 shot scouts and other snipers.
generally he's less frustrating to deal with than sniper tf2 so long as he's using his default rifle and not one of the broken unlocks.
he's also kept in check by the sapper class, who has an "electrorifle" (which is essentially just an assault rifle) which can lay down suppressive fire against snipers.
I've been thinking of ways to balance Sniper, imo it's probably possible, but it'd require a lot of testing. Here are some ideas:
-For starters, removing their items to counter classes that should counter THEM like the Razorback and the Darwin's Danger Shield (Sniper shouldn't be able to win a 1v1 against either these classes on short range so easily). It's ridiculous how snipers can so easily get out of danger without doing absolutely anything.
-The sniper sightlines thing from Shounic's video would also help but I doubt it'll entirely fix the problem, as there are some places you just have to go through. It could be one way to balance sniper, but no the only one. Alternatively, the CoD sniper glares could also work.
-Perhaps sniper's bullets could be a projectile, as they are in many other games. This way, sniping requires certain amount of thought and prediction, more than just being point and click. The bullet could also fall a bit, making really long range sniper shots harder.
-Buffing counter classes: It'd be ideal if other classes had ways to counter sniper sightlines, like Medic's MVM shield, or perhaps a new engineer building that could offer cover or a shield. Posible air-blastable sniper shots?
-Sniper's gun jams whenever they miss a shot: Like was said in the video, if sniper misses a shot, it takes him longer to reload. imo this would work well and is in the spirit of the class
-Upping the TTK (Time to kill) of snipers/no longer instakill: Making it so snipers have to combo to kill enemies, instead of instantly deleting them. Perhaps making it so it's impossible for a sniper to instakill an enemy but rather reduce their health ~95%, meaning they have to 2-shot every class. This might completely break sniper though.
-Making it so the sniper un-scopes whenever damage is dealt. This way people can have *some* breathing room and prevent the sniper from sniping you if you do spot and hit him. This'd make flare pyros much more useful as support, as they'd disable snipers for a bit of time (Unless they have a bs item like the Darwins Danger. Seriously remove that shit)
Either way it's very unlikely they'll rework sniper. Hell I'd argue it's more likely to be removed than to be reworked. It is nice to imagine a world in which the sniper class is balanced though.
Honestly, being able to two-shot anyone is still pretty powerful. Doing half of heavies health right now still causes heavy to have to retreat, especially since heavy can't do anything about sniper anyways.
im going to edit this comment many times in order to go through your points and this is comming from a spy main
i agree with removing his item counters why can he counter spys and pyros with no downside?
the shounic laser wont work imo as most good snipers use quickscopes so the laser will only hinder the non good snipers
i heavily disagree with make snipers bullet a projectile and only a few games make oneshot bullets a bullet travel and if it has bullet travel EVERY gun has bullet travel
god i would love a buff to spy but jokes aside it wont work as the shield what about other classes say a heavy going against meds or engies shield besides engie already has the short circuit so now he makes everyone have a bad time
sniper missing a shot and his gun jamming makes no sense at all and is not "in spirit of the class" he maintains all of his equipment
i dont bieleve getting rid of his one shot kill will be a good idea as the only combo sniper is jarate and the crit bitch blade
@@deathbringer9893 Fortnite only has projectile bullets for snipers, and it works pretty well imo, balances them a lot. Apex also has a combination of hitscan and projectile weapons, so some gund have bullet travel and others do not.
A balance idea I had was this: ACTUALLY MAKE SNIPER RELOAD INSTEAD OF HAVING HIS "RELOAD" ANIMATION BE PART OF HIS FIRING ANIMATION.
Sniper can *actually* fire way faster than what the video would have you believe since quick-switching is an actual tactic for Sniper. lets you quickscope more often. Great skill to have I'm sure, but it *entirely* breaks the game's balance.
@@MegaGaming11 not anymore if i do the trick of canceling his reload it wont fire right away
No interactivity? That's not entirely right, tons of snipers have interacted with me good ol' back burner. xD
technically speaking, a stock sniper is somewhat countered by a flare/manmelter pyro. Pyro won't be killed by a quick scope and being on fire basically prevents reliable aiming.
That can be countered by the danger shield though.
Vacc medic is also a solution, but not for long.
Honestly I think it'd be a cool experiment where there's a regular TF2 server, but you straight up cannot pick sniper. What happens? Would people enjoy it more or less? Is the game more or less balanced?
Game is more balanced teams can push more easily and players have more freedom with movement and strategies. I know because I have a ton of experience and matched without Sniper are always the most fun.
There are so many maps where a single good sniper can make movement impossible and there is nothing you can do about it since as long as the Sniper isn't braindead (which any sniper which can hold a team back won't be) they can kill any spy that threatens them.
You forgot one thing about sniper: he adds virtually nothing to the game. He has no ability to push, and can only defend territory; something that sentries already do in a much more reasonable way.
Shounic did a test where he removed sniper from the game and the only change that happened was that people weren’t afraid of sight lines and could focus more on the mid fight. You know, the actually fun part of the game. And despite this, maps need to be designed with him at the forefront of the creators’ minds.
we would need a lot of different tests for that to prove anything
we have: average players with average snipers
and
average players iwth no snipers
we need amazing players with average snipers and amazing players with no snipers to prove anything
This is exactly my problem with Sniper, he doesn’t fit with the rest of the classes. He’s a practically insta-kill class from a range that no other class prioritises in that has 1 hard counter and 1 soft counter that is hitscan and with no risk.
People keep saying how op sniper is, yet I'm being killed by soldiers 500 times more than by snipers. Nor is he an easy class to play, at least for me, really It's sad how often I miss even body shots
@@demogaming8895 once sniper crosses the skill gap, there is little that a class can do against that. A soldier may get more kills but it’s far more reasonable and easy to kill him. With a sniper, you go around the map, pray to god he doesn’t see you, and pray to god he doesn’t jarate bushwacka combo you, and then go for the kill. With a soldier you walk up, dodge a few rockets, and shoot him. The soldier isn’t boring to kill, but a sniper is
@@thataintfalco7106 snipers always target eachother first, so as long as there are snipers on both teams, they should take care of eachother and you won't even know it. And who cares if sniper is boring to kill, at least I get some easy kills, it's a nice thing for a casual player like me
@@demogaming8895 If you have to rely on someone countering another class by playing that same exact class, then that’s a bit of a problem. At least against Soldiers, you can swap to Pyro to deflect rockets back at the dude, even if that Soldier is the best.
Against a highly skilled Sniper who never misses shots? You can’t really do anything. I’ve seen Snipers who can even destroy *Scouts.* A playable class in a video game shouldn’t be balanced by skill and skill alone. No matter how skilled someone is, they shouldn’t be unkillable. Doesn’t help that, like the video stated, the Sniper has little to no interaction with the enemy team, which is extremely annoying in general to many people.
@@jblazerndrowzy so am I the only one who has never met such an unkillable sniper god? Apperently they should be everywhere... bots don't count of course. And no, I don't rely on snipers countering eachother, that's just what they usually do
Imagine being a pick class and headshotting a scout at point blank range. What a joke.
It feels like every terrible design decision in TF2, theres 5,000 people there to defend it.