Reforger straight up looks unfinished compared to most modern tactical FPSs... including indie ones... and it even looks bad compared to some modded Arma 3 footage. Arma 4's gonna be so disappointing..
Idk but in my experience from the military I feel like these things are just not easily replicated no matter how you put it. In my personal opinion Tarkov has it down packed with the feelings of being "Behind" the gun but never will anyone replicate the actual dynamics. Irregardless of my opinion I appreciate how you dive into the videos
The constant problem with realistic shooters is the amount of stuff you just can't simulate right so you have to do so in other "gamey" and weird ways, like recoil or suppression.
insurgency sandstorm is similar to tarkov, bullets come from the gun barrel and the barrel isnt always aligned with center screen. suppressors also have a meaningful downside instead of the unrealistic damage penalty most games have since the gun is actually modeled in 3d space and your character points it out of the way when you get too close to something
I mean yeah true, cause you are dealing with the fact you are displaying stuff on a 2D screen and not an actual object you have in your hands. Tarkov ain't perfect, but it's very immersive.
From a gameplay experience perspective, I absolutely LOVE they way helldivers 2 does 3rd person recoil. The way the reticle moves independently of the screen when shooting rather than staying centered and the entire screen moving.
@AdamSchadow On paper it sounds terrible, for sure. In practice it feels great. I generally hate 3rd person shooters, mostly because it makes me feel completely detached from anything that is happening on screen, but HD2 is one of those rare exceptions.
doesnt cs2 have a moving crosshair option aswell? i havent played hd2 yet so i wouldnt know if these are even remotely comparable but its how i imagine it would be.
I always hated screen shake in games, that's one of the reasons why i hated explosions in GTA V They should give us the option to turn off unwanted camera shake
@@yak-machining I strongly disagree.Those screen shakes in Gta-5 is what makes explosion so amazing.But I hate too much screen shake in first person games while running and also totally hate it when reloading.
From experience shooting pintle mounted machine guns. They absolutely walk around your intended point of aim. The misalignment of your sight picture absolutely happens which is why we elect you use parallax correcting dot sights.
Yeah I really don't get his complaint, Arma has always aired on the side of Simulation rather than fancy flashy animations. His complaint about suppression also didn't make sense, in Arma when you are getting shot at, especially with a higher caliber weapon, the bullets cracking by is more than enough suppression to tell me to get my head down. He also complained that you are gonna lose at close range with the truck mounted PKM and that you have to use it for further engagements, like duh that's the whole point of the weapon of course you're a sitting duck up close.
@JoshuaPlays99 I've had zero issues with the gun play in the game. A lot of the difficulty with it are things I've encountered doing similar shooting tasks irl. I understand his video though, especially with the animations. I actually find myself using the mounted machineguns without using irons. More immersive to me and feels cooler. Effectiveness doesnt degrade.
Mechanical dispersion = A real cone of fire and beaten zone, add suppression and no camera shake means mgs will more closely match their real utility. Great video! Hope they add it.
I'm an indie game developer and I noticed this too using a rotational shake when firing in game is bad, but soft "zoom like" shake without rotation adds immersion, like in the Tarkov.
Both are horribly inadequate. Having shot NSV's, PKM's and Light machine guns in training I know for a fact that they are so loud and shake so violently that the machine gun "rocks your world". Obviously biggest effect comes from having your face on the gun (Unlike in NSV) But also by the caliber and fire rate of the gun (Big effect from NSV) For a game like reforger the weapon shake is not enough because the effect of the machinegun on your general vision wont be enough. Though I might instead make the shake softer and blur the the vission aggressively. As if you were getting tunnel vision. As for the PKM, sure I guess though I would submit that YOU are not immobile and the effect of the recoil WILL move you, nobody is a machine and SOME movemement of the sight picture should happen. Not to mention that PKM barrel shakes quite a bit when shot. Gun parts arent perfectly immovable, they bend all over the place, especially stamped ones.
@@castor3020 I was looking for this comment, not to mention 50 cal mounts and dshka mounts are much sturdier typically, so it’s a bad comparison to make.
Tuota pekaria ku ammuttii ton UAZin katolta näyttää melko samalta ku ampuu jaloilta maaten, ei nää helvettiäkää mihi osuu rautatähtäimil vaikka rekyylin pitää hallinnassa, heiluu perkeleesti ja suukaasut ja liekki piilottaa osumat ellei ammuta valojuovia. Intissä ku sai pekarii 3x tähtäimen nii heti alko olemaa jotaki järkeä siinä vehkeessä muutaki kui että "se on aluevaikutteinen ase"
The issue is that recoil does effect you so there should be a balance(if you control a gun in the same way you do in Reforger you would feel most of the recoil compared to how the player character uses it in Tarkov) Recoil works both ways(both on the body and on the gun) and there is some degree of compensation by both sides depeding on how the gun is being held(in Arma reforger you can clearly see the player character compensating more then the gun by how the player character wields his weapons so he would feel more of the recoil and the gun would be more stable.)
Body and head shake do not affect image recognition by a brain whatsoever. I can see over a long distance while running or riding in a vehicle on a bumpy road as clearly as while standing still. Screen shake should be removed as it is an artificial and unrealistic game mechanic.
@@yansakovich true, but you do feel the concussion of certain guns, and that can affect your vision. Especially for large caliber weapons, you basically have mini grenades constantly exploding next to your head and a few feet in front of you. It'll blow your hair back.
As a note I’ve never seen a non-disintegrating belt in a game actually represented like it is in that tarkov clip. The PKM’s ammunition belt is non-disintegrating and it’s a shame arma does not represent this.
@ that’s really cool man I didn’t know that. Honestly if that’s the case it’d probably be easier to model as once it detaches you could probably despawn the empty belt.
1:32 and you already showed the worst implementation of screen shake i've seen to date. Look at csgo for more directed and better version than say it is bad.
A very cost effective way to represent recoil and to improve the machine gun is for bigger calliber weapons to have an increased bullet impact, where it creates a big smoke, it will increase mg effectiveness because you can lead your shots more easily and it will scare the heavens out of the opposition that is getting shot. Project reality is a very good example
The problem is how do you create a suppression system other than making each life count a lot more by changing the spawn rules? Suppression in real life is based on natural human survival instinct. In a game that is difficult to create. Squad does an ok job with the visual clouding when under fire to reduce the ability of suppressed players to accurately return fire. But it still does not mean players will actually care if they die.
Unpopular fact: Real people in combat sometimes (and with increasing frequency) don't care. We saw suppression have little effect against Jihadis in the past 25 years, and Japanese in WW2. Leave it out. There's a reason every country is moving toward getting shots on target, and away from volume of suppression. It really only works against mentally stable, generally well to do people with somthing to go home to. (Also, drug abuse on the battlefield seems to completely annul it, as seen in the invasion of Ukraine.)
Previous Arma games - at least I remember it in 2 and 3 - had a system where bullets impacting nearby increased weapon sway, as if you character was fatigued. Also do note that every veteran of recent conflicts I've seen, both GWOT and Ukraine, are STRONGLY against the move towards less ammo carried and bigger/heavier rounds.
I would say that GWOT often involved shoot and scoot ambushes performed or mostly IED initiated attacks. Terrible for suppression if your enemy is either going to disappear shortly after contact or is already willing to blow themselves up. In peer-to-peer suppression is also more of an artillery thing than a direct fire support thing. Artillery can actually suppress you by making the ground around you blow up and disabling mechanized platforms. MGs at most either gun down a line of infantry or be used to harass enemy positions. But it does nothing to armor.
@@Ranstone What is even your source on this, apart from "Jihadis didn't shit themselves under fire"? Are you waltzing around out of cover because a beaten zone is just a social construct?
@@shaivahnparsons3244 Direct fire supression is used exactly to stop movement though. It is the main thrust of the "Fix" part on the 4Fs. Plus you guys seem to misunderstand both what supression is and isn't as well as its effects or what it is used for. Supression isn't less efective against a death commited enemy - it just makes them get shot faster if they're dumb enough to pop out.
As much as i hate screen shake , you've never fired a machine gun mounted on a "light" vehicle have you? It shakes. Ever tried to shake a car with just your body movement? It shakes. There is recoil even if its "mounted on a 1 ton vehicle"
Damn with that side by side it made a lot of sense. I think you pointed out a lot of the issues that still need to be worked on that topic of support weapons and supression. I hope the devs see this video
tarkov guns have the best feeling, shame the game around it is the game it is. more games need to adapt its weapon handling, less the extraction formula. swaying a gun aroud with your body to then dump half a mag into a guy whose shell ejects you heard next to yourself is just an insane feeling. I hope some other games start getting it right soon
I mean I love the game, I get it's not for everyone. But that's the great thing, not all games should be for everyone and a lot of shooters should learn from Tarkov.
@@teaser6089 I think the frustration is primarily they Tarkov is so incredibly authentic, but the only way to interact with those amazing mechanics is to play one of the most hardcore extraction shooters on the market. I think a lot of people want a game that plays like tarkov with the sandbox and mission making elements of the Arma franchise
@agentoranj5858 i have, i played it for years and the gun handling is good, not as good as Tarkov, but still really good. Just too bad the game modes suck compared to the of Insurgency
the sight picture of the mounted PKM does not get affected as much by screen shake zeroed at 100m. you changed the zero to 420m which pushes up the zeroing mechanism, causing it to interfere more with the iron sight.
To be fully honest most people won't even care or pay attention to this due to it being, "nit picky" but the reality is just like you said, If we don't point it out now, BI will take a lazier route and A4 will look unfinished to a degree
There are number of problems with your theory. Firstly the reforger version is insanely more lethal since with even minimal practice you can learn to simply ignore all the shake and just focus on the front sight which points where the bullets will go giving you effectively a long range death beam that if it was in any other more arcady game would be stupidly op. Secondly the actual reason why players dont use that truck mounted machine gun not just in this game but also in pretty much any other milsim is concealment the truck is simply really easy to spot and once you know where the enemy is its over.
6:10 "[...] there's enough gameplay systems that are - in theory - great, but there's some support variables that are misaligned to what they should be [...]" That's a quote for the century when it comes to modern video games. I don't play ARMA and probably never will, but I can't believe how many games that single, simple criticism can apply to that highlights the issues that are plaguing games these days that keep them from realizing their full potential.
Lotta folks on here have never actually fired automatic weapons have they? Real world, you shake with the weapon and it typically throws off your sight picture and blurs your peripherals.
@@snookiewozo Arma has always been wooden and clunky lol. Get better standards. It's alright for what it is, the "looks" and "comfort" of gameplay are not the points of the game.
@@traattatata7973 Arma has Bad Animations and stuff but man the atmosphere of seing artillery destroy an entire town Just feels real for whatever reason
@@traattatata7973 Alright, so you're crazy. Arma 3, for a 2014 game, looks absolutely stunning. Maybe get a better PC because your current one is clearly trash.
As someone that doesn't play milsims, and is on the more competitive side of fps gaming, screen shake also adds extra disadvantage to people with worse monitors, as the poor response times and refresh rates make it even harder to track targets effectively. Having the gun itself shake is almost always an infinitely better solution, both in how it looks and feels, and also for gameplay fairness.
Instead of an artificial video game suppression, just creating the dust cloud of impacts that can go in the eyes and hamper vision for a few seconds would give a huge advantage to a machine gun compared to a gun. Moreover they could also simulate the secondary shrapnell from small rocks and wood spall plus bullet bouncing. A very small minor wound will have an effect. With those effects, a volley of fire even if not aimed properly would have some probablistic effects on a target even if not hitting directly.
fear of getting shot is not psychological, but primal, there is absolutely no way to replicate it in a video game with mechanics, there has to be mechanical suppression in the game itself
@doltBmB in game like takorv it could be possible just from the fact you get punished hard for dying in the game but with how most people play the game like its r6s or cod I don't think they would care that much unless they where being shot at with accurate fire weach you could achieve with a regular gun plus guns in tarkov already have zero recoil and you can have a scope and mobility unlike the mounted heavy machine gun The closest where a machine gun actually works in the game for me is Squad and Arma with mods that's the only few games where both me and enemy doesn't wanna get shot when the objective is at the main priority between winning or loosing
I want them to add traverse and elevation for tripoded machineguns so bad just for the few situations it would get used. Some added realism that would fit well in some situations where you are firing in low light or at known areas, plus allowing the mounted guns to shake would be great for beaten areas. I shouldn't have to wiggle a ground mounted 50 cal to get a beaten zone. If we had traverse and elevation and a realistic amount of inaccuracy to tripod and pintle mounted guns, you could use them to better effect and their real world use compared to a narrow stream of rounds. Squad does this better since you'll get a beaten area at range. That is my biggest issue with arma 3, using any mounted machine gun means you forgo any dispersion. Also traverse and elevation being added means you can replicate indirect fire with machineguns which is a pretty common real world tactic, which when/if they add suppression would be great for just suppressing an enemy base with just a PKM or m60. Let me do harassment and interdiction fire without a mortar
I suspect the shake happening only in the roll axis is a limitation or restriction within Reforger. Maybe if you move the camera off axis to simulate shake, you start seeing your head geometry or something.
I’d love to see your analysis of Squad’s mechanics and how they could improve Reforger/A4? Such as the gunplay, objectives, spawn and logistics too. As a long player of both I think BI could definitely learn a thing or two from Offworld
@@Unplay4ble squad is awful with the weapon recoil, it feels like the gun is not up against your soldiers shoulder, the whole weapon shouldn’t be shaking, only the front should but for some reason the squad devs responsible for that mechanic never shot firearms irl so they think your whole entire gun shakes like that
(Not relevant to mounted MGs, just commenting on the recoil style/system generally) An issue I experienced with Tarkov primarily recoiling the gun rather than the screen is that in certain situations (rapidly firing a Saiga shotgun) the weapon's point of aim can be pushed entirely out of your view. This is a hard issue to find a fix for - the sights would never be pushed out of view by recoil if you still have the weapon shouldered, but for game balance shotguns still need to have large impulses of recoil each time they're fired. I think a solution could be translating vertical recoil to horizontal recoil, proportionate to how high the weapon has been pulled - this would both reward short/controlled bursts by giving them very predictable recoil, while still punishing, but allowing, less controlled fire of weapons. As far as mounted MGs go, this could work very well - a little bit of the weapon pulling up, but very vertical and easy to handle until you get into longer bursts, at which point the horizontal component of the recoil makes it very hard to control.
I actually got to fire a mounted M240 years ago and I could barely feel any recoil at all as you said the mount absorbs most of the force if anything the noise and shells ejecting were the most distracting part I could feel slight input on my shoulder but really nothing compared to a shoulder fired full length rifle.
we are going after the visual representation of it, not the idiotic fact that BSG can't represent correctly the shooting of weapons let alone what is supposed to be a PMC operator with what looks like jiggly arms, this is further more embarrassing looking into how they actually went multiple times into shooting ranges.
@redrafashiro Honestly the video felt to me as putting on the pedestal the whole solution to recoil Tarkov does. Sure i admit that gun looks great with all the moving parts, it feels good. But rest is simply terrible. Even the camera recoil is just absurd for 99% of the time and few times BSG buffons managed to remove it by accident were among the best times EfT had.
The Arma community doesn't really prioritize this level of animation detail, I think the vast majority of Arma players prefer how our NSV works compared the the Tarkov one, there are a million things we would love to see added to the game before they worked on something like this.
they're both NSVs you can tell by the muzzle brake. also the arma one was is incorrect, the belt links are supposed to stay intact like they do in tarkov
Stock on a mounted machine gun serves as a cheek weld for ease of aiming. And no, a PKM mounted on a 1 inch steel pipe like that would still recoil and shake a little, as the pipe does have a little give. But I agree Tarkov's look a bit more dramatic, despite still feeling really weak for the caliber it is in.
About suppression: Id rather have realistic PSYCHOLOGICAL suppression, than MECHANICAL one. Id rather have consequences to getting wounded/killed, and therefore make me want to take cover AS A PLAYER, than a gamey forced impairment UPON MY CHARACTER. So i think currently, refrogger has no suppression indeed. You die? EZ respawn somewhere else and thats it. If refrogger spawned you ONLY at main base, maybe also a SINGLE spawn truck, then it would be a lot more important to take cover when getting fired upon.
fear of getting shot is not psychological, but primal, there is absolutely no way to replicate it in a video game with mechanics, there has to be mechanical suppression in the game itself. youtube censorship test
@@doltBmB Primal, sure. But you most definitely can. I literally explain it above. If you make a game that immerses the player in what hes doin, not in an eye candy way, but meaningful consequence way, you can secure that urge to try to survive and not get shot from a player.
You're 100% spot on with this, camera recoil is awful especially when it's relied on as the primary or only form of recoil. Which is funny, actually, because Tarkov had camera recoil as its PRIMARY mode of recoil for years and only in the last year and a half-ish had they gotten rid of that. They also grossly misunderstood how recoil works in real life, so their implementation had the weapon rotating from the position of the pistol grip regardless of if a stock was in use or if the weapon was held from the front as well. It was overall, a really weird and hard to understand implementation of recoil that I feel a lot of people just played around without really understanding. Recoil is much better in Tarkov now, and while I have a lot of other issues with the game, the weapon handling did clean up really well. Some of the mods out there have it beat still, but thats Nikita for you.
Yes with a mounted MG you shouldn’t get any recoil imparted onto the user. Do keep in mind that depending on the mount that can affect the actual recoil of the weapon itself (the factor can be if it’s fixed to a heavier weight thing like a car, on a bipod, on a tripod, and how much tension the mounting point has) but this can largely be mitigated with a muzzle device The only real case scenario of it having visual recoil is with a bipod in regards to anything close to a mounting system (or a shitty tripod but I doubt reforger has that type of variability)
Battlefield 4 and R6 Siege where the best games ive ever played when it comes to recoil. Yes, siege is extremelly arcadey but it is also NOT INTRUSIVE at all. BF4 had screen shake, viewmodel shake, but the reticle itself always stayed in the middle of the screen. even BattleBit was a bit weird with recoil, you have screen movement, model movement, and the reticle itself moving when you shoot, but the bullets always hit the center of the screen, so you end up using your hitmarkers as a reticle
I usually play on officials as "SOF / Saboteur solo " I always use the armed jeep and I improvise it as AA. When I have volunteers / capable volunteers I roll with 3 Jeeps and I hunt US helis.
better is subjective. more realistic is objective. as an american and therefore a certified weapons expert I will definitely agree that mechanical/weapon shake is far more realistic then camera shake.
I'm fine with he stock on a vehicle like that, 240s have stocks on vehicles like that, but you are right, there should be almost no screen shake and I wish the window of rotation was wider
5:25 the sight setting is stated as 440m (П - english P) on ak-74. It comes from a mistake in the manual, wrong phrasing. П should be 400m. If you measure the height of the sight notch set on П above the bottom of the receiver, it will be 78.4mm, identical to sight setting 4 (400m). A russian military bloggers team reached to russian Kalashnikov Concern, the ak producer, they confirmed that П=400m.
Thing is that machine gun is kind of the *only* machine gun so a lot more time can be put into it. Reforger has...well a lot going on in comparison to tarkov so I feel like what is there is pretty acceptable considering it's a combined arms 40km+ map game compared to the Tarkov infantry focused 1 to 2km max (sometimes smaller) game focus.
I have always had the problem with Arma that the weapons handling is by far the worst part of these games. It feels like you are some kind of terminator who can fire extremely accurately unsupported and being a machine gunner is usually suboptimal since there has never been an effective suppression system and as soon as you let loose, someone plinks you. If Reforger got the ICO treatment that squad had, this would be one the best tactical shooters of all time.
@@doltBmB I mean yeah maybe he hasn’t? but it’s not like a2 or 1 are much better anyway. The prior games definitely have some of the same issues. What a weirdly assumptive reply.
I play in a one-life milsim event every friday in Reforger and I can say emphatically that is a public server problem. A decent shot with an average spotter can be deadly effective with an MG. You just cannot over commit to a position, and need to carefully spot targets prior to engaging. LMGs and MMGs also shouldn't operate alone, as they are vulnerable while reloading and repositioning, whereas riflemen aren't. HMGs are all about positioning. They need to be certain they can hold their line of fire. They're most effective when used as part of overlapping fields of fire, as a concentrated push against an HMG is very effective, since they have a slower fire rate and long reload.
Get out of arma my guy.No way I will allow arma to have that cancer ico thing.Also not to mention Arma is way more realistic than squad.Squad added those things to make the game hardcore not necessarily realistic.In Arma your character is a soldier this is why they have more realistic recoil control than most other milsim games.Also those so called tactical milsim shooters adds way too much recoil than real life.
So we need someone to make a mechanical recoil mod to compensate and see if it works in Arma, good point though. If you're pointing this out, I can see how mounted machine guns recoil could be improved, but normal infantry recoil is just fine, tbh.
in my ancient gaming opinion, the game Day of Defeat 1.3 did recoil my favorite way, where you had to fight 100% of the recoil with mouse movement. it always felt super rewarding being able to group your shots with any of the non 1hk weapons only trouble is nowadays everything needs to have console portability in mind because money so this recoil model is simple not viable
This is a problem in many games and even in games that aren't even trying to simulate weapons correctly... A machine gunner vs a sniper in battlefield, sniper is almost always gonna win against a machine gunner. Same thing (I don't play but have watched) happens in this game where the machine guns are too accurate so they compensate by making the machine guns unwieldy even on platforms that would make the thing easier to use...
A bunch of problems with this. "A machine gunner vs a sniper in battlefield, sniper is almost always gonna win". There are many scenarios, probably more scenarios, where the sniper would actually be at a disadvantage, as snipers generally aren't operating in front line conditions where they ever would be facing off against an MG. Snipers rely on precision attacks of opportunity that are rare in all circumstances but extremely rare directly on the front lines, outside of urban combat (and urban combat is an area where MGs have to be used a lot more narrowly anyways). Sniper vs. MG is really a WWI scenario. By WWII the natural of how MGs operated was already so different and so much more flexible, and optics were so much better for snipers that both had diverged into extremely different roles. In modern combat MGs actually are in many cases extremely accurate out to 5 or 600 meters+. But we're talking about Reforger. The maps are very small compared to real battlefields. MGs almost never have targets beyond their maximum effective range, meanwhile snipers rarely have enough distance to remain flexible, and instead just operate as more accurate infantry. And it should be noted in vanilla reforger there are no snipers. There are only designated marksmen, which are a completely different role integrated into an infantry squad, unlike snipers that are specialists, generally pairs, sent for specific tasks. As for MGs being unwieldy in Reforger, only while on the move, which is how they should be. In a fixed position they are relatively accurate at all plausible engagement ranges, with minimal recoil. With a decent spotter calling bearings you can be extremely effective with it. HMGs are a bit more unwieldy in some cases, but also in vanilla they're only mounted on vehicles and the unwieldy nature comes from the bouncing and swaying of the vehicle rather than the gun itself.
I really wish reforger kept the Arma 3 UI, and just updated the engine and graphics. I do like what they did with vehicles for the most part, but most parts of Arma 3 are just so much better
0:05 its NSV. 1:23 also NSV. KORD 12.7x108mm machine gun receiver cover up top has 2 short strengthening ribs on the sides and 2 long ribs in the center, sides of the front of the receiver *doesnt* have horizontal rows of big rivets, has a small orange or yellow tab in front of receiver cover, designed in 1998, gas operated, long stroke piston, rotating bolt 14 lugs in 2 rows, matching lugs on barrel extention (less head space problems), ejector is a swinging arm on the receiver, it pushes the fired case to the right so it can be ejected forward through a tube, can be fed from left or right. Weight 25kg (55lbs) NSV-12,7 Utyos receiver cover up top has 4 strengthening ribs of equal length, sides of the front of the receiver have 2 horizontal rows of big rivets, production started in 1972, gas operated, long stroke piston, bolt is sliding left for locking on 2 swinging links, 4 lugs on the receiver trunnion, removable barrel is inserted in the trunnion, ejector is swinging arm on the carrier, it pushes the fired case to the right so it can be ejected forward through a tube, right side feeding only. Weight 25kg (55lbs) + 11,1kg (25.5lbs) ammo box with 50 roungs + 16kg (35lbs) infantry mount = 52,1kg (115lbs), barrel weight is 9kg (20lbs).
To give you some input here, if you want to be realistic, focus shift: when not using the weapon sights, only the part you are looking at has to be sharp. Everything else is peripheral vision and not sharp. When using the sights, here it gets tricky, for precise shots the focus has to be on the front sight, while when you spray and pray the focus can still be where you shooting (literally operator preference). Now for optics, the focus is where you are shooting, for scopes, you should have a crisp crosshair, for red dots only the target is sharp where everything is blurry and the red dot does its magic. Screen hake or mechanical shake?: both. Even mounted guns move under recoil. Guns with a rifle stock: the gun moves always connected to the player's view. Guns without a rifle stock: the gun moves independently to the player's view.
Tarkov feels far more immersive than Reforger. I really hope some Bohemia devs catch your videos! You create incredibly informative and quality content keep up the great work!
comparing a coax mount or any interior turret mount to a flex mount on a jeep is misinformed or dishonest. The coax mount will have actual recoil springs in the mount or a full pinned down mount. The pintle mount on the roll bar of a 1980s jeep is nothing like that. (my experience is with M151 jeeps and M1919 gpmgs). It is nowhere near as rigid as the other mounts and not as rigid as a full tripod with a T&E mech. It is a wobbly kind of mount by its nature. You cannot get the flexible aim you need without it being wobbly(maybe with articulation like some very expensive and modern mounts)
I hate suppression mechanics, suppression should be "im scared of the noise, fire, and hot flying metal, therefore i will hide as soon as i can." OG insurgency did that quite well. There were minimal suppression effects in that game, but it still worked because getting shot at was so intense
Realistically speaking I think you need a mix of both. No matter how heavy machine gun is mounted it will still pass the recoil to the user. When we use the .50cal it's used as an area weapon 90% of the time. Weather it's vehicle mounted or tripod mounted you will never keep a proper site picture and most of the time you're looking at where the rounds are landing and not even using the site. But in real life I definitely see more "screen shake" vs mechanical since all the vibrations and recaoil still get passed to my body. Not as crazy as Arma, but way more than none at all.
whats neat about arma reforger tho, is all the base assets and functions can be completely changed with the modding tools, pretty easily aswell. ive made several functional mods without 0 coding knowledge. just messing around with files.
The problem with ArmA animation is that mounted weapons have no recoil, which is issue that dates back all way to OFP. That's because, by engine's logic, all mounted weapons are vehicles with gun turret, and player is a crewman. They can do firing animations, but no real recoil since it would have to move entire vehicle, which is how they did it in ArmA 1, and it looked ridiculus whem Mk19 would kick entire humvee with every shot.
Good you show this now I nearly bought the game, this is unaccaptable. This reminds me of the early days of Medal of Honor... Also when using the weapon you wouldn't see the gun shaking cause you are shaking with the gun: physics!
The sad thing about alot of these arguements is that the only person who can make a "correct" judgement is someone who's shot it. and those are usually in the minority.
On a mount like the one that PKM is on recoil would certainly still be a factor. You're not going to be shooting with the accuracy of a coaxial machine gun off of that mount, haha
Sarcasm aside, really great demonstration, great video! I'm also nervous about the direction Arma is going, as a long time fan of the series, ever since the original Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis 25 years ago. It has always had a special feel that set the series apart. I'm not excited about the direction Reforger is taking with arcade-like elements. It really breaks the immersion.
i feel like squad is mixed between both.. yk what. lemme check, but that is bad (edit: Just checked in squad, Yes it has a mix of both. it doesent have details like the belt moving around or feeding till the last round. But it has screen and mechanical shake. thats cool)
The screen shake is realistic to some degree in that sight alignment becomes unstable as the weapon system is fired and if you’re choked up on the stock while shooting the gun, your head and body will naturally shake/move with the recoil of the weapon. People think Tarkov looks better but only because it works from a *gameplay* perspective. Reforger is actually the more realistic interpretation, even if it’s less comfortable to play.
I’m not a fan of suppression mechanics. Look at Squad, it’s so debilitating it’s stupid. I think the nerve of the individual player landing a shot knowing if one of those rounds being shot at them will kill them is enough. Maybe some vignette at best. I’m with you on everything else.
Dont know about thee guns but i shot the m2 and mg3 a lot. The mg3 especialy shake ur whole body so domn hard u can see where ur hiting at close range thats also why there is a second gunner looking wher u hit. Regardles the arma aproch looks bad and isnt realistic. About mounted mashineguns they still have strong recoil even tripod m2s still have a bit of recoil. Thats why MG gunners burst.
Always bugged me that MG in Tarkov, as well as some other guns in other games look like they're shaking itself apart. unless its being held together with tape, the sights shouldn't be bouncing around during firing.
People side-by-side comparing Reforger with Tarkov is honestly surprising to me. The games aren't even remotely in the same genre despite both being 'realistic' games; Arma has a strong emphasis on scale, mechanization, and teamwork across gigantic maps whereas Tarkov is a highly personalized, solo infantry on infantry PvP arena. I'm genuinely scared of the day Arma recieves the same level of detail as Tarkov because that's the day my PC will catch on fire and my house will burn down, I can't even run Tarkov. Also, on the note of balance: Soviets get a lot better AT in the form of the RPG-7. To be honest, if they just added frag ammunition the RPG-7 would be a better mid-game or possibly late-game weapon than anything they could reasonably add or fix for the Soviets considering the scale of the game. I doubt they'll solve the balance problem since balance hasn't ever seemed to be big on their list of priorities for the dev team, just whatever they want, need, or feel like adding. Arma 3 itself has a lot of additions to the game through DLC that are flat upgrades (see AK-12, ENVG, MAR-10, MAAWS) to base weapons and most weapons are missing any unique or interesting ammo types, despite the game having support for it.
On the camera recoil: Absolutely agreed.
Its just so damn ugly to look at, and it doesnt really make you feel like things are moving/functioning.
@@UEemperor We meet again...
@oshel5793
Well hello there. Happy new year!
@@UEemperor happy new years 🥳
@@UEemperor its like someone shaking your head side to side😂😂
it just makes it feel like you are resting your jaw on the gun
Oh yeah Reforger's solution looks almost placeholder when you put the two side by side.
Knowing bohemia it's not a placeholder.
@@ihavenomindandimustthink Nothing more permanent than a temporary solution
nah that's just the BIS experience since 1998
reforger probably still has a lot of OFP code
Reforger straight up looks unfinished compared to most modern tactical FPSs... including indie ones... and it even looks bad compared to some modded Arma 3 footage.
Arma 4's gonna be so disappointing..
💯
kinda funny how tarkov also had excessive screenshake and weird camera recoil and they got rid of it after the community complained for 2 years or so
lmfao true
was gonna say this lmao it and the EOD scam made me quit tarkov
Idk but in my experience from the military I feel like these things are just not easily replicated no matter how you put it. In my personal opinion Tarkov has it down packed with the feelings of being "Behind" the gun but never will anyone replicate the actual dynamics. Irregardless of my opinion I appreciate how you dive into the videos
Yeah the concussive blast is a big part of the experience
The constant problem with realistic shooters is the amount of stuff you just can't simulate right so you have to do so in other "gamey" and weird ways, like recoil or suppression.
wait till you see the guy that put hydraulics into his desk to simulate recoil
insurgency sandstorm is similar to tarkov, bullets come from the gun barrel and the barrel isnt always aligned with center screen. suppressors also have a meaningful downside instead of the unrealistic damage penalty most games have since the gun is actually modeled in 3d space and your character points it out of the way when you get too close to something
I mean yeah true, cause you are dealing with the fact you are displaying stuff on a 2D screen and not an actual object you have in your hands.
Tarkov ain't perfect, but it's very immersive.
From a gameplay experience perspective, I absolutely LOVE they way helldivers 2 does 3rd person recoil. The way the reticle moves independently of the screen when shooting rather than staying centered and the entire screen moving.
That is so much worse than moving having the crosshair glued to the center of the screen.
@AdamSchadow i suspect it is one of the cases where it sounds waay worse than it actualy implemented
@AdamSchadow On paper it sounds terrible, for sure. In practice it feels great. I generally hate 3rd person shooters, mostly because it makes me feel completely detached from anything that is happening on screen, but HD2 is one of those rare exceptions.
doesnt cs2 have a moving crosshair option aswell? i havent played hd2 yet so i wouldnt know if these are even remotely comparable but its how i imagine it would be.
I always hated screen shake in games, that's one of the reasons why i hated explosions in GTA V
They should give us the option to turn off unwanted camera shake
Gotta love when modders spawn a ton of explosions and suddenly your screen is super shaky and blurry 🙄
@@yak-machining I strongly disagree.Those screen shakes in Gta-5 is what makes explosion so amazing.But I hate too much screen shake in first person games while running and also totally hate it when reloading.
@@contra7631 what, you dont violently shake your head when inserting a magazine into your gun?
From experience shooting pintle mounted machine guns. They absolutely walk around your intended point of aim. The misalignment of your sight picture absolutely happens which is why we elect you use parallax correcting dot sights.
gamers hate anything that isn't a perfectly stabilized laser weapon
@doltBmB Yeah. "BUT I NEED THE MUZZLE BREAK TRON RIFLE!!!!!" dude it's an area weapon.
Yeah I really don't get his complaint, Arma has always aired on the side of Simulation rather than fancy flashy animations. His complaint about suppression also didn't make sense, in Arma when you are getting shot at, especially with a higher caliber weapon, the bullets cracking by is more than enough suppression to tell me to get my head down. He also complained that you are gonna lose at close range with the truck mounted PKM and that you have to use it for further engagements, like duh that's the whole point of the weapon of course you're a sitting duck up close.
@JoshuaPlays99 I've had zero issues with the gun play in the game. A lot of the difficulty with it are things I've encountered doing similar shooting tasks irl. I understand his video though, especially with the animations. I actually find myself using the mounted machineguns without using irons. More immersive to me and feels cooler. Effectiveness doesnt degrade.
the tank guy!
Head bobbing and camera shakes in games can go away, thank you very much
Mechanical dispersion = A real cone of fire and beaten zone, add suppression and no camera shake means mgs will more closely match their real utility. Great video! Hope they add it.
I'm an indie game developer and I noticed this too using a rotational shake when firing in game is bad, but soft "zoom like" shake without rotation adds immersion, like in the Tarkov.
Both are horribly inadequate.
Having shot NSV's, PKM's and Light machine guns in training I know for a fact that they are so loud and shake so violently that the machine gun "rocks your world". Obviously biggest effect comes from having your face on the gun (Unlike in NSV) But also by the caliber and fire rate of the gun (Big effect from NSV)
For a game like reforger the weapon shake is not enough because the effect of the machinegun on your general vision wont be enough. Though I might instead make the shake softer and blur the the vission aggressively. As if you were getting tunnel vision.
As for the PKM, sure I guess though I would submit that YOU are not immobile and the effect of the recoil WILL move you, nobody is a machine and SOME movemement of the sight picture should happen.
Not to mention that PKM barrel shakes quite a bit when shot. Gun parts arent perfectly immovable, they bend all over the place, especially stamped ones.
@@castor3020 I was looking for this comment, not to mention 50 cal mounts and dshka mounts are much sturdier typically, so it’s a bad comparison to make.
Tuota pekaria ku ammuttii ton UAZin katolta näyttää melko samalta ku ampuu jaloilta maaten, ei nää helvettiäkää mihi osuu rautatähtäimil vaikka rekyylin pitää hallinnassa, heiluu perkeleesti ja suukaasut ja liekki piilottaa osumat ellei ammuta valojuovia. Intissä ku sai pekarii 3x tähtäimen nii heti alko olemaa jotaki järkeä siinä vehkeessä muutaki kui että "se on aluevaikutteinen ase"
they are both NSV, same gun
@@Opachki69420 tarkov is a kord
@@arturg.j.167 no its not, there are literally NSV machine guns all over the place in tarkov
@@Opachki69420 my mistake sorry, in the shooting cans quest it used to say it was a kord but apparently now they changed it.
The issue is that recoil does effect you so there should be a balance(if you control a gun in the same way you do in Reforger you would feel most of the recoil compared to how the player character uses it in Tarkov)
Recoil works both ways(both on the body and on the gun) and there is some degree of compensation by both sides depeding on how the gun is being held(in Arma reforger you can clearly see the player character compensating more then the gun by how the player character wields his weapons so he would feel more of the recoil and the gun would be more stable.)
Body and head shake do not affect image recognition by a brain whatsoever. I can see over a long distance while running or riding in a vehicle on a bumpy road as clearly as while standing still. Screen shake should be removed as it is an artificial and unrealistic game mechanic.
@@yansakovich true, but you do feel the concussion of certain guns, and that can affect your vision. Especially for large caliber weapons, you basically have mini grenades constantly exploding next to your head and a few feet in front of you. It'll blow your hair back.
@@domosrage5434- Reminds me of the video about trying to fire an M240B while walking forward. Not exactly doable and especially not accurately.
As a note I’ve never seen a non-disintegrating belt in a game actually represented like it is in that tarkov clip. The PKM’s ammunition belt is non-disintegrating and it’s a shame arma does not represent this.
the PKM belt is semi disintegrating in that it comes apart every 100, maybe 50 rounds, idk, can't remember.
@ that’s really cool man I didn’t know that. Honestly if that’s the case it’d probably be easier to model as once it detaches you could probably despawn the empty belt.
@@Spiderwolfer tarkov handles it by spawning a empty 50 round link and letting it despawn after a bit
Because Arma always lacked proper gun models and proper animations and nothing changed there.
The head position of the gunner in reforger not only makes it look odd in third person, but also makes it doficult to walk shots in in first person
1:32 and you already showed the worst implementation of screen shake i've seen to date. Look at csgo for more directed and better version than say it is bad.
A very cost effective way to represent recoil and to improve the machine gun is for bigger calliber weapons to have an increased bullet impact, where it creates a big smoke, it will increase mg effectiveness because you can lead your shots more easily and it will scare the heavens out of the opposition that is getting shot. Project reality is a very good example
That would shiz on performance in a big firefight
"Cost Effective" is not a good argument, they are selling an inferior product so complaining about it is completely justified.
@@teaser6089 Theres really nothing else on the market to top it. So u cant say its inferior if it cant be compared to nothing else lol
The problem is how do you create a suppression system other than making each life count a lot more by changing the spawn rules? Suppression in real life is based on natural human survival instinct. In a game that is difficult to create. Squad does an ok job with the visual clouding when under fire to reduce the ability of suppressed players to accurately return fire. But it still does not mean players will actually care if they die.
Unpopular fact: Real people in combat sometimes (and with increasing frequency) don't care. We saw suppression have little effect against Jihadis in the past 25 years, and Japanese in WW2.
Leave it out. There's a reason every country is moving toward getting shots on target, and away from volume of suppression. It really only works against mentally stable, generally well to do people with somthing to go home to. (Also, drug abuse on the battlefield seems to completely annul it, as seen in the invasion of Ukraine.)
Previous Arma games - at least I remember it in 2 and 3 - had a system where bullets impacting nearby increased weapon sway, as if you character was fatigued.
Also do note that every veteran of recent conflicts I've seen, both GWOT and Ukraine, are STRONGLY against the move towards less ammo carried and bigger/heavier rounds.
I would say that GWOT often involved shoot and scoot ambushes performed or mostly IED initiated attacks. Terrible for suppression if your enemy is either going to disappear shortly after contact or is already willing to blow themselves up.
In peer-to-peer suppression is also more of an artillery thing than a direct fire support thing. Artillery can actually suppress you by making the ground around you blow up and disabling mechanized platforms. MGs at most either gun down a line of infantry or be used to harass enemy positions. But it does nothing to armor.
@@Ranstone What is even your source on this, apart from "Jihadis didn't shit themselves under fire"? Are you waltzing around out of cover because a beaten zone is just a social construct?
@@shaivahnparsons3244 Direct fire supression is used exactly to stop movement though. It is the main thrust of the "Fix" part on the 4Fs.
Plus you guys seem to misunderstand both what supression is and isn't as well as its effects or what it is used for.
Supression isn't less efective against a death commited enemy - it just makes them get shot faster if they're dumb enough to pop out.
All I can hope for is that you are giving this feedback directly to BI..
BRDM-2 being endgame is also really wild
As much as i hate screen shake , you've never fired a machine gun mounted on a "light" vehicle have you? It shakes. Ever tried to shake a car with just your body movement? It shakes.
There is recoil even if its "mounted on a 1 ton vehicle"
Damn with that side by side it made a lot of sense. I think you pointed out a lot of the issues that still need to be worked on that topic of support weapons and supression. I hope the devs see this video
tarkov guns have the best feeling, shame the game around it is the game it is. more games need to adapt its weapon handling, less the extraction formula. swaying a gun aroud with your body to then dump half a mag into a guy whose shell ejects you heard next to yourself is just an insane feeling. I hope some other games start getting it right soon
I mean I love the game, I get it's not for everyone.
But that's the great thing, not all games should be for everyone and a lot of shooters should learn from Tarkov.
@@teaser6089 I think the frustration is primarily they Tarkov is so incredibly authentic, but the only way to interact with those amazing mechanics is to play one of the most hardcore extraction shooters on the market. I think a lot of people want a game that plays like tarkov with the sandbox and mission making elements of the Arma franchise
Have you guys never heard of Insurgency?
@agentoranj5858 i have, i played it for years and the gun handling is good, not as good as Tarkov, but still really good.
Just too bad the game modes suck compared to the of Insurgency
the sight picture of the mounted PKM does not get affected as much by screen shake zeroed at 100m. you changed the zero to 420m which pushes up the zeroing mechanism, causing it to interfere more with the iron sight.
To be fully honest most people won't even care or pay attention to this due to it being, "nit picky" but the reality is just like you said, If we don't point it out now, BI will take a lazier route and A4 will look unfinished to a degree
Man, firing that Reforger MG without ADS gives me motion sickness.
I hope Bohemia Interactive sees this video
There are number of problems with your theory. Firstly the reforger version is insanely more lethal since with even minimal practice you can learn to simply ignore all the shake and just focus on the front sight which points where the bullets will go giving you effectively a long range death beam that if it was in any other more arcady game would be stupidly op. Secondly the actual reason why players dont use that truck mounted machine gun not just in this game but also in pretty much any other milsim is concealment the truck is simply really easy to spot and once you know where the enemy is its over.
Completely agree. Not to mention it simply looks much more realistic.
The Reforger screen shake looks like your soldier is rapidly winking his eyes like a goofy lil’ guy
6:10 "[...] there's enough gameplay systems that are - in theory - great, but there's some support variables that are misaligned to what they should be [...]"
That's a quote for the century when it comes to modern video games. I don't play ARMA and probably never will, but I can't believe how many games that single, simple criticism can apply to that highlights the issues that are plaguing games these days that keep them from realizing their full potential.
I don't have reforger but I totally agree with you, but in reforger those cricket and enviroment looks relaxing
they should definitely add this in a qol update at some point, along with a general loadout saver and digging in mines
Lotta folks on here have never actually fired automatic weapons have they?
Real world, you shake with the weapon and it typically throws off your sight picture and blurs your peripherals.
That's always been ARMA, looks like shit, feels like shit but because you get to do funny stuff in big groups it's still fun
You must be crazy or drunk. Arma 3 looks amazing and feels great.
@@snookiewozo Arma has always been wooden and clunky lol. Get better standards. It's alright for what it is, the "looks" and "comfort" of gameplay are not the points of the game.
@@traattatata7973 Arma has Bad Animations and stuff but man the atmosphere of seing artillery destroy an entire town Just feels real for whatever reason
@@traattatata7973 Alright, so you're crazy. Arma 3, for a 2014 game, looks absolutely stunning. Maybe get a better PC because your current one is clearly trash.
@@snookiewozo Get better reading comprehension, illiterate retard.
As someone that doesn't play milsims, and is on the more competitive side of fps gaming, screen shake also adds extra disadvantage to people with worse monitors, as the poor response times and refresh rates make it even harder to track targets effectively. Having the gun itself shake is almost always an infinitely better solution, both in how it looks and feels, and also for gameplay fairness.
This is a really good point!
Instead of an artificial video game suppression, just creating the dust cloud of impacts that can go in the eyes and hamper vision for a few seconds would give a huge advantage to a machine gun compared to a gun. Moreover they could also simulate the secondary shrapnell from small rocks and wood spall plus bullet bouncing. A very small minor wound will have an effect. With those effects, a volley of fire even if not aimed properly would have some probablistic effects on a target even if not hitting directly.
fear of getting shot is not psychological, but primal, there is absolutely no way to replicate it in a video game with mechanics, there has to be mechanical suppression in the game itself
All those shts just make games more frustrating instead of actually enjoyable to play.And those things end up being gimmick.
@doltBmB in game like takorv it could be possible just from the fact you get punished hard for dying in the game but with how most people play the game like its r6s or cod I don't think they would care that much unless they where being shot at with accurate fire weach you could achieve with a regular gun plus guns in tarkov already have zero recoil and you can have a scope and mobility unlike the mounted heavy machine gun
The closest where a machine gun actually works in the game for me is Squad and Arma with mods that's the only few games where both me and enemy doesn't wanna get shot when the objective is at the main priority between winning or loosing
I want them to add traverse and elevation for tripoded machineguns so bad just for the few situations it would get used. Some added realism that would fit well in some situations where you are firing in low light or at known areas, plus allowing the mounted guns to shake would be great for beaten areas. I shouldn't have to wiggle a ground mounted 50 cal to get a beaten zone.
If we had traverse and elevation and a realistic amount of inaccuracy to tripod and pintle mounted guns, you could use them to better effect and their real world use compared to a narrow stream of rounds. Squad does this better since you'll get a beaten area at range. That is my biggest issue with arma 3, using any mounted machine gun means you forgo any dispersion.
Also traverse and elevation being added means you can replicate indirect fire with machineguns which is a pretty common real world tactic, which when/if they add suppression would be great for just suppressing an enemy base with just a PKM or m60. Let me do harassment and interdiction fire without a mortar
I suspect the shake happening only in the roll axis is a limitation or restriction within Reforger. Maybe if you move the camera off axis to simulate shake, you start seeing your head geometry or something.
if their system is similar like in Arma 3, head geometry is not visible in first person
I’d love to see your analysis of Squad’s mechanics and how they could improve Reforger/A4? Such as the gunplay, objectives, spawn and logistics too. As a long player of both I think BI could definitely learn a thing or two from Offworld
@@Unplay4ble squad is awful with the weapon recoil, it feels like the gun is not up against your soldiers shoulder, the whole weapon shouldn’t be shaking, only the front should but for some reason the squad devs responsible for that mechanic never shot firearms irl so they think your whole entire gun shakes like that
(Not relevant to mounted MGs, just commenting on the recoil style/system generally)
An issue I experienced with Tarkov primarily recoiling the gun rather than the screen is that in certain situations (rapidly firing a Saiga shotgun) the weapon's point of aim can be pushed entirely out of your view.
This is a hard issue to find a fix for - the sights would never be pushed out of view by recoil if you still have the weapon shouldered, but for game balance shotguns still need to have large impulses of recoil each time they're fired.
I think a solution could be translating vertical recoil to horizontal recoil, proportionate to how high the weapon has been pulled - this would both reward short/controlled bursts by giving them very predictable recoil, while still punishing, but allowing, less controlled fire of weapons.
As far as mounted MGs go, this could work very well - a little bit of the weapon pulling up, but very vertical and easy to handle until you get into longer bursts, at which point the horizontal component of the recoil makes it very hard to control.
I actually got to fire a mounted M240 years ago and I could barely feel any recoil at all as you said the mount absorbs most of the force if anything the noise and shells ejecting were the most distracting part I could feel slight input on my shoulder but really nothing compared to a shoulder fired full length rifle.
I am honestly baffled that anyone actually defends pos that is Tarkov´s recoil solution.
we are going after the visual representation of it, not the idiotic fact that BSG can't represent correctly the shooting of weapons let alone what is supposed to be a PMC operator with what looks like jiggly arms, this is further more embarrassing looking into how they actually went multiple times into shooting ranges.
@redrafashiro Honestly the video felt to me as putting on the pedestal the whole solution to recoil Tarkov does.
Sure i admit that gun looks great with all the moving parts, it feels good. But rest is simply terrible. Even the camera recoil is just absurd for 99% of the time and few times BSG buffons managed to remove it by accident were among the best times EfT had.
hope they see this🌟
The Arma community doesn't really prioritize this level of animation detail, I think the vast majority of Arma players prefer how our NSV works compared the the Tarkov one, there are a million things we would love to see added to the game before they worked on something like this.
I think people would use the MG jeep more if the mount could traverse more instead of just being forward facing.
@@pandemiceclipse6596 you can spin with A and D keys
Fr
Arma is a mil-sim. The officially adopted UAZ with mounted PKM couldn't traverse more than is shown in game.
they're both NSVs you can tell by the muzzle brake. also the arma one was is incorrect, the belt links are supposed to stay intact like they do in tarkov
Stock on a mounted machine gun serves as a cheek weld for ease of aiming.
And no, a PKM mounted on a 1 inch steel pipe like that would still recoil and shake a little, as the pipe does have a little give.
But I agree Tarkov's look a bit more dramatic, despite still feeling really weak for the caliber it is in.
As a regular NSV UAZ (ab)user, I approve this message
About suppression:
Id rather have realistic PSYCHOLOGICAL suppression, than MECHANICAL one.
Id rather have consequences to getting wounded/killed, and therefore make me want to take cover AS A PLAYER, than a gamey forced impairment UPON MY CHARACTER.
So i think currently, refrogger has no suppression indeed. You die? EZ respawn somewhere else and thats it.
If refrogger spawned you ONLY at main base, maybe also a SINGLE spawn truck, then it would be a lot more important to take cover when getting fired upon.
@@UEemperor refrogger? Is this like an inside joke? Because it’s arma Reforger
@tavolo2969
What are you talking about? It clearly says arma refrogger?
fear of getting shot is not psychological, but primal, there is absolutely no way to replicate it in a video game with mechanics, there has to be mechanical suppression in the game itself. youtube censorship test
@@doltBmB
Primal, sure.
But you most definitely can. I literally explain it above.
If you make a game that immerses the player in what hes doin, not in an eye candy way, but meaningful consequence way, you can secure that urge to try to survive and not get shot from a player.
@@UEemperor No, you can't. The limbic system cannot be fooled so easily.
You're 100% spot on with this, camera recoil is awful especially when it's relied on as the primary or only form of recoil. Which is funny, actually, because Tarkov had camera recoil as its PRIMARY mode of recoil for years and only in the last year and a half-ish had they gotten rid of that. They also grossly misunderstood how recoil works in real life, so their implementation had the weapon rotating from the position of the pistol grip regardless of if a stock was in use or if the weapon was held from the front as well. It was overall, a really weird and hard to understand implementation of recoil that I feel a lot of people just played around without really understanding.
Recoil is much better in Tarkov now, and while I have a lot of other issues with the game, the weapon handling did clean up really well. Some of the mods out there have it beat still, but thats Nikita for you.
bohemia interactive should hire you
Yes with a mounted MG you shouldn’t get any recoil imparted onto the user. Do keep in mind that depending on the mount that can affect the actual recoil of the weapon itself (the factor can be if it’s fixed to a heavier weight thing like a car, on a bipod, on a tripod, and how much tension the mounting point has) but this can largely be mitigated with a muzzle device
The only real case scenario of it having visual recoil is with a bipod in regards to anything close to a mounting system (or a shitty tripod but I doubt reforger has that type of variability)
I’ve actually never noticed other games making the screen shake horizontal like this. Usually it’s just vertical which is fine, but this is atrocious.
Battlefield 4 and R6 Siege where the best games ive ever played when it comes to recoil.
Yes, siege is extremelly arcadey but it is also NOT INTRUSIVE at all.
BF4 had screen shake, viewmodel shake, but the reticle itself always stayed in the middle of the screen.
even BattleBit was a bit weird with recoil, you have screen movement, model movement, and the reticle itself moving when you shoot, but the bullets always hit the center of the screen, so you end up using your hitmarkers as a reticle
I usually play on officials as "SOF / Saboteur solo " I always use the armed jeep and I improvise it as AA. When I have volunteers / capable volunteers I roll with 3 Jeeps and I hunt US helis.
yk whats better, the recoil shake effect in mw 2019 are really good and realistic if they drasticaly increase the recoil and weapon sway
better is subjective. more realistic is objective. as an american and therefore a certified weapons expert I will definitely agree that mechanical/weapon shake is far more realistic then camera shake.
I'm fine with he stock on a vehicle like that, 240s have stocks on vehicles like that, but you are right, there should be almost no screen shake and I wish the window of rotation was wider
5:25 the sight setting is stated as 440m (П - english P) on ak-74. It comes from a mistake in the manual, wrong phrasing. П should be 400m. If you measure the height of the sight notch set on П above the bottom of the receiver, it will be 78.4mm, identical to sight setting 4 (400m).
A russian military bloggers team reached to russian Kalashnikov Concern, the ak producer, they confirmed that П=400m.
Thing is that machine gun is kind of the *only* machine gun so a lot more time can be put into it. Reforger has...well a lot going on in comparison to tarkov so I feel like what is there is pretty acceptable considering it's a combined arms 40km+ map game compared to the Tarkov infantry focused 1 to 2km max (sometimes smaller) game focus.
Great video
I have always had the problem with Arma that the weapons handling is by far the worst part of these games. It feels like you are some kind of terminator who can fire extremely accurately unsupported and being a machine gunner is usually suboptimal since there has never been an effective suppression system and as soon as you let loose, someone plinks you. If Reforger got the ICO treatment that squad had, this would be one the best tactical shooters of all time.
and by "these games" presumably you mean A3 and Reforger, having not played any of the prior.
@@doltBmB I mean yeah maybe he hasn’t? but it’s not like a2 or 1 are much better anyway. The prior games definitely have some of the same issues. What a weirdly assumptive reply.
@@corruptpolitician4533 they literally don't, spoken like someone who has only ever played A3
I play in a one-life milsim event every friday in Reforger and I can say emphatically that is a public server problem. A decent shot with an average spotter can be deadly effective with an MG. You just cannot over commit to a position, and need to carefully spot targets prior to engaging. LMGs and MMGs also shouldn't operate alone, as they are vulnerable while reloading and repositioning, whereas riflemen aren't. HMGs are all about positioning. They need to be certain they can hold their line of fire. They're most effective when used as part of overlapping fields of fire, as a concentrated push against an HMG is very effective, since they have a slower fire rate and long reload.
Get out of arma my guy.No way I will allow arma to have that cancer ico thing.Also not to mention Arma is way more realistic than squad.Squad added those things to make the game hardcore not necessarily realistic.In Arma your character is a soldier this is why they have more realistic recoil control than most other milsim games.Also those so called tactical milsim shooters adds way too much recoil than real life.
So we need someone to make a mechanical recoil mod to compensate and see if it works in Arma, good point though. If you're pointing this out, I can see how mounted machine guns recoil could be improved, but normal infantry recoil is just fine, tbh.
in my ancient gaming opinion, the game Day of Defeat 1.3 did recoil my favorite way, where you had to fight 100% of the recoil with mouse movement. it always felt super rewarding being able to group your shots with any of the non 1hk weapons
only trouble is nowadays everything needs to have console portability in mind because money so this recoil model is simple not viable
No thanks. Some games go overboard with this and it becomes a headache to play.
This is a problem in many games and even in games that aren't even trying to simulate weapons correctly... A machine gunner vs a sniper in battlefield, sniper is almost always gonna win against a machine gunner.
Same thing (I don't play but have watched) happens in this game where the machine guns are too accurate so they compensate by making the machine guns unwieldy even on platforms that would make the thing easier to use...
A bunch of problems with this. "A machine gunner vs a sniper in battlefield, sniper is almost always gonna win". There are many scenarios, probably more scenarios, where the sniper would actually be at a disadvantage, as snipers generally aren't operating in front line conditions where they ever would be facing off against an MG. Snipers rely on precision attacks of opportunity that are rare in all circumstances but extremely rare directly on the front lines, outside of urban combat (and urban combat is an area where MGs have to be used a lot more narrowly anyways). Sniper vs. MG is really a WWI scenario. By WWII the natural of how MGs operated was already so different and so much more flexible, and optics were so much better for snipers that both had diverged into extremely different roles. In modern combat MGs actually are in many cases extremely accurate out to 5 or 600 meters+. But we're talking about Reforger. The maps are very small compared to real battlefields. MGs almost never have targets beyond their maximum effective range, meanwhile snipers rarely have enough distance to remain flexible, and instead just operate as more accurate infantry. And it should be noted in vanilla reforger there are no snipers. There are only designated marksmen, which are a completely different role integrated into an infantry squad, unlike snipers that are specialists, generally pairs, sent for specific tasks.
As for MGs being unwieldy in Reforger, only while on the move, which is how they should be. In a fixed position they are relatively accurate at all plausible engagement ranges, with minimal recoil. With a decent spotter calling bearings you can be extremely effective with it. HMGs are a bit more unwieldy in some cases, but also in vanilla they're only mounted on vehicles and the unwieldy nature comes from the bouncing and swaying of the vehicle rather than the gun itself.
@gormros battlefield the video game.
@@zyhgar25 ah
I guess you haven't played bf-1.Some machine guns are op as fk in that game.Kills enemies in 2-3 seconds.
@@contra7631 A good sniper is always gonna beat a machine gunner even in Bf1
Screen shake is what shooting a gun feels like, mechanical shake is what shooting a gun looks like
it's great that Tarkov added camera recoil in their latest patch :D
What was changed? I played for a few minutes and I think the vertical recoil is lower
Unfortunately the game is still garbage with unrealistic mechanics
I use MG Jeep a lot and it’s great.
I really wish reforger kept the Arma 3 UI, and just updated the engine and graphics. I do like what they did with vehicles for the most part, but most parts of Arma 3 are just so much better
0:05 its NSV.
1:23 also NSV.
KORD 12.7x108mm machine gun
receiver cover up top has 2 short strengthening ribs on the sides and 2 long ribs in the center,
sides of the front of the receiver *doesnt* have horizontal rows of big rivets,
has a small orange or yellow tab in front of receiver cover,
designed in 1998,
gas operated, long stroke piston, rotating bolt 14 lugs in 2 rows, matching lugs on barrel extention (less head space problems),
ejector is a swinging arm on the receiver, it pushes the fired case to the right so it can be ejected forward through a tube,
can be fed from left or right.
Weight 25kg (55lbs)
NSV-12,7 Utyos
receiver cover up top has 4 strengthening ribs of equal length,
sides of the front of the receiver have 2 horizontal rows of big rivets,
production started in 1972,
gas operated, long stroke piston, bolt is sliding left for locking on 2 swinging links, 4 lugs on the receiver trunnion, removable barrel is inserted in the trunnion,
ejector is swinging arm on the carrier, it pushes the fired case to the right so it can be ejected forward through a tube,
right side feeding only.
Weight 25kg (55lbs) + 11,1kg (25.5lbs) ammo box with 50 roungs + 16kg (35lbs) infantry mount = 52,1kg (115lbs), barrel weight is 9kg (20lbs).
the PKTM? T just means Tank, anything with T is modified to fit a tank. such as the M-10T howitzer.
To give you some input here, if you want to be realistic, focus shift: when not using the weapon sights, only the part you are looking at has to be sharp. Everything else is peripheral vision and not sharp. When using the sights, here it gets tricky, for precise shots the focus has to be on the front sight, while when you spray and pray the focus can still be where you shooting (literally operator preference). Now for optics, the focus is where you are shooting, for scopes, you should have a crisp crosshair, for red dots only the target is sharp where everything is blurry and the red dot does its magic. Screen hake or mechanical shake?: both. Even mounted guns move under recoil. Guns with a rifle stock: the gun moves always connected to the player's view. Guns without a rifle stock: the gun moves independently to the player's view.
You should send this to the devs
No way the rear sig moves
Tarkov feels far more immersive than Reforger. I really hope some Bohemia devs catch your videos! You create incredibly informative and quality content keep up the great work!
comparing a coax mount or any interior turret mount to a flex mount on a jeep is misinformed or dishonest. The coax mount will have actual recoil springs in the mount or a full pinned down mount. The pintle mount on the roll bar of a 1980s jeep is nothing like that. (my experience is with M151 jeeps and M1919 gpmgs). It is nowhere near as rigid as the other mounts and not as rigid as a full tripod with a T&E mech. It is a wobbly kind of mount by its nature. You cannot get the flexible aim you need without it being wobbly(maybe with articulation like some very expensive and modern mounts)
I hate suppression mechanics, suppression should be "im scared of the noise, fire, and hot flying metal, therefore i will hide as soon as i can." OG insurgency did that quite well. There were minimal suppression effects in that game, but it still worked because getting shot at was so intense
Realistically speaking I think you need a mix of both. No matter how heavy machine gun is mounted it will still pass the recoil to the user. When we use the .50cal it's used as an area weapon 90% of the time. Weather it's vehicle mounted or tripod mounted you will never keep a proper site picture and most of the time you're looking at where the rounds are landing and not even using the site. But in real life I definitely see more "screen shake" vs mechanical since all the vibrations and recaoil still get passed to my body. Not as crazy as Arma, but way more than none at all.
screen shake, motion blur, chromatic aberration, lens flair, bloom, film grain...the sinister 6 of UGLY post-processing effects...
whats neat about arma reforger tho, is all the base assets and functions can be completely changed with the modding tools, pretty easily aswell. ive made several functional mods without 0 coding knowledge. just messing around with files.
The problem with ArmA animation is that mounted weapons have no recoil, which is issue that dates back all way to OFP. That's because, by engine's logic, all mounted weapons are vehicles with gun turret, and player is a crewman. They can do firing animations, but no real recoil since it would have to move entire vehicle, which is how they did it in ArmA 1, and it looked ridiculus whem Mk19 would kick entire humvee with every shot.
Good you show this now I nearly bought the game, this is unaccaptable. This reminds me of the early days of Medal of Honor...
Also when using the weapon you wouldn't see the gun shaking cause you are shaking with the gun: physics!
The sad thing about alot of these arguements is that the only person who can make a "correct" judgement is someone who's shot it. and those are usually in the minority.
On a mount like the one that PKM is on recoil would certainly still be a factor. You're not going to be shooting with the accuracy of a coaxial machine gun off of that mount, haha
Every time I fire a weapon in real life, I flop my head around like an idiot. 🤪 Arma 4 is going to be super realistic!
Sarcasm aside, really great demonstration, great video!
I'm also nervous about the direction Arma is going, as a long time fan of the series, ever since the original Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis 25 years ago. It has always had a special feel that set the series apart. I'm not excited about the direction Reforger is taking with arcade-like elements. It really breaks the immersion.
i feel like squad is mixed between both.. yk what. lemme check, but that is bad (edit: Just checked in squad, Yes it has a mix of both. it doesent have details like the belt moving around or feeding till the last round. But it has screen and mechanical shake. thats cool)
Ugh, ngl the screen-shake gives me motion sickness. It better be a toggleable option!
I always believed tarkov has SUPERB gun mechanics. Unmatched in many games.
Reforger is pretty much missing all the flavor animations that are present on the NSV in Tarkov.
The screen shake is realistic to some degree in that sight alignment becomes unstable as the weapon system is fired and if you’re choked up on the stock while shooting the gun, your head and body will naturally shake/move with the recoil of the weapon. People think Tarkov looks better but only because it works from a *gameplay* perspective. Reforger is actually the more realistic interpretation, even if it’s less comfortable to play.
I’m not a fan of suppression mechanics. Look at Squad, it’s so debilitating it’s stupid. I think the nerve of the individual player landing a shot knowing if one of those rounds being shot at them will kill them is enough. Maybe some vignette at best. I’m with you on everything else.
The only time Ive felt realistic shooting has been in VR. its difficult to translate to a screen
It is Refroger, not Reforger
No? Its Reforger
Refrogger* With double G. Get your facts right plox!
@@UEemperor This, was just going to say the same and condemn blasphemy
You really have a fixation on vehicle mounted PKM 😂😂😂, there are probably worst things to take care
Dont know about thee guns but i shot the m2 and mg3 a lot. The mg3 especialy shake ur whole body so domn hard u can see where ur hiting at close range thats also why there is a second gunner looking wher u hit. Regardles the arma aproch looks bad and isnt realistic. About mounted mashineguns they still have strong recoil even tripod m2s still have a bit of recoil. Thats why MG gunners burst.
Always bugged me that MG in Tarkov, as well as some other guns in other games look like they're shaking itself apart.
unless its being held together with tape, the sights shouldn't be bouncing around during firing.
Good video my friend 🤙🏼
People side-by-side comparing Reforger with Tarkov is honestly surprising to me. The games aren't even remotely in the same genre despite both being 'realistic' games; Arma has a strong emphasis on scale, mechanization, and teamwork across gigantic maps whereas Tarkov is a highly personalized, solo infantry on infantry PvP arena. I'm genuinely scared of the day Arma recieves the same level of detail as Tarkov because that's the day my PC will catch on fire and my house will burn down, I can't even run Tarkov.
Also, on the note of balance: Soviets get a lot better AT in the form of the RPG-7. To be honest, if they just added frag ammunition the RPG-7 would be a better mid-game or possibly late-game weapon than anything they could reasonably add or fix for the Soviets considering the scale of the game. I doubt they'll solve the balance problem since balance hasn't ever seemed to be big on their list of priorities for the dev team, just whatever they want, need, or feel like adding. Arma 3 itself has a lot of additions to the game through DLC that are flat upgrades (see AK-12, ENVG, MAR-10, MAAWS) to base weapons and most weapons are missing any unique or interesting ammo types, despite the game having support for it.