I am all for mercy and forgiveness. We all need to learn and act according to them. However, I am always very conflicted when it comes to criminals who violate another person sexually and emotionally. Property, one can replace, physical wounds may heal but the mental trauma from being violated sexually along with how society acts around it, makes such loss difficult to bounceback from. May be I am thinking emotionally, but how are we to ask the victim to forgive the culprit.
Beyond wealth and equality, I suspect that these countries that emphasize rehabilitation might have a cultural outlook that might have understood perhaps the frailty of human nature with a lower emphasis on honour as compared to say the American culture, a focus on the collective rather than on the individual, group accountability over the personal, maybe...
Justice is vengeance done carefully and in accordance with stable rules. Careful in the sense that procedures are made to ensure someone is innocent until proven guilty and that the public can be assured that this is the case. In accordance with stable rules so as to be consistent, impartial and judge people the same across time, space and status.
This is absolutely spot on. It is all about vengeance. And, as Robert, Sapolsky of Stanford has pointed out, seeing people suffer who have committed norm violations (in our eyes) causes a release of dopamine. So revenge has a neurophysiological basis. But it is nonetheless something we should fight against.
I would be cautions about interpreting the role of neurotransmitters. It really bugs me, when dopamine is used as a seemingly scientific expression for pleasure or reward. The function of dopamine is much more complex and not nearly fully understood. One could say that it is in some brain regions a marker for salience and future expectations.
True justice can be incredibly complicated. It requires a nuanced understanding of the offense, the offender, what led them to it, and what in either their makeup _or society's_ needs adjustment to redress the wrong and reduce the chance of it happening again. Unfortunately, in most societies, folks on the higher end of socioeconomic power don't want to go to the effort or expense to do that (especially if it reduces their power or otherwise mucks up the status quo that got them where they are and want to stay), while folks on the lower end are usually too stressed and exhausted (often by design) to consider any of that. Vengeance is far simpler... at least in simple-minded theory. You've been hurt, and if you hurt the perpetrator enough, maybe they'll stop. Not exactly forward-thinking, yes, but if your life is (or even just _feels_ like) a constant stream of pain, fear, loss, humiliation and abandonment, it may look like a far more expedient and effective solution than waiting for a justice system that may not be in good working order or genuinely have the best interests of more than a select few in mind.
I have grown extremely mistrustful of the entire notion of justice; it is an ideal that is nearly utopian in its aims, but generally dystopian in its applications. It is the byproduct of a left hemisphere that thinks it can construct outcomes which are, in my opinion, out of reach. At the small scale men can implement small corrections, reconciliations, and compensations; however, for every degree of separation from the actual individuals involved, the margin of error grows exponentially. For me then, justice is the prominence of God, while repentance and forgiveness are the means of healing that suit man's limited nature. Occasionally recompense can be found, but the people who bang on loudly about justice are the most unjust, often to the point of becoming diabolical.
Great video. I've been thinking about this topic a bit for a while and your video was really interesting with regards to the judicial system as the mediating authority of vengeance between groups. Especially the bit about cancel culture as a form of extra-judicial mob-vengeance was a really interesting idea I hadn't heard. Happy new year!
When I was a senior in high school, my civics teacher pointedly asked me, "What is justice?" I thought for a second, then said, "It's a euphemism for revenge." I heard a lot of gasps from my classmates. The teacher said, "That is a very cynical response. Anybody else?"
"Hunger for revenge". This appears to be the root cause of the evil discussed in this video. Evil done is forever part of the past and there is nothing we can do to make it go away. Retribution begets more evil and neither does it make the future better, nor does it fix the past. There is no such thing as negative evil that can somehow subtract from wrong already done. So why do harmed humans feel retribution will make the situation better? I can't find any philosophical work explaining the rationale for this. "Even the score"? What is the point of keeping a score? What is the causal process that links the score to quality of life? On our death beds, will we even care? What, exactly is being scored, anyway? There is a nebulous feeling of justice, or injustice if the score is even, but we don't know another person's score so our knowledge of this playing field is incomplete and the measure at best relative. There's also a concept of justice in a zero sum game sense, but the amount of good or evil we can do to each other is unbounded, and we each own what we've conjured in our individual conscience. I just don't see how corrupting our own soul, risking punishment or retribution, and making the world a worse place will bring us happiness through justice, but we think it will. I feel like I am analyzing a psychosis.
7:08 this thought process is at least 2500 years old. The ancient Athenians initiated a sort of judicial system to stop this very problem: blood feuds. The point of Justice is to take the responsibility for vengeance out of the hands of the individual. Otherwise, every other person(if not more) would be a part time hitman. Real civilized Society starts at this realization
Don Corleone's justice Bonasera : I ask you for justice. Don Corleone : That is not justice. Your daughter is alive. Bonasera : Let them suffer then as she suffers. [the Don is silent] Bonasera : How much shall I pay you? [the Don turns away dismissively, but Bonasera stays on] Don Corleone : Bonasera, Bonasera, what have I ever done to make you treat me so disrespectfully? If you'd come to me in friendship, this scum who ruined your daughter would be suffering this very day. And if by some chance an honest man like yourself made enemies they would become my enemies. And then, they would fear you. Bonasera : Be my friend... Godfather. [the Don at first shrugs, but upon hearing the title he lifts his hand, and a humbled Bonasera kisses the ring on it] Don Corleone : Good. [He places his hand around Bonasera in a paternal gesture] Don Corleone : Some day, and that day may never come, I will call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day, consider this justice a gift on my daughter's wedding day. [a gratified Bonasera offers his thanks and leaves] Don Corleone : [to Hagen] Give this job to Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. I mean, we're not murderers, in spite of what this undertaker thinks "
You are a healer. This is about Palestine and Israel more than anything. and where to go from there and spread it everywhere. You really need to re-check the The Grand Inquisitor from Dostoevsky!
Precisely because of the vengeance based thinking in the collective justice system, I have always been mildly against this system. I really do think I would do better than it, if I had the same powers. But, should the collective justice system be banished, or should people like me lead this system? Probably a bit of both. Just like politics. We need better (more loving, wise) leaders, but we also need more agency for the individuals. True justice is attained through forgiveness. Forgiveness of yourself, and forgiveness of the other. For the victim AND perpetrator. It think the desire for restitution and rehabilitation (if possible) comes out of this forgiveness automatically.
It's worth noting what is the average quality of life in a country like Norway when comparing the penitentiary system. And compare how the QoL of a typical citizen differs from the QoL of an inmate. Norway has 2nd place in the Human Development Index. The US has 21st. Therefore you can't compare prisons in those countries in a vacuum.
To all we wish: Happy New year! Let all of us give now a cheer. We wish us all only the best. Now we will dance without a rest. Blue mood must now go away - Let’s celebrate this magic day. And winter can melt even some ice: The coming year will be nice.
I have a couple issues with this piece. 1. The desire to not letting the perpetrator go away unpunished is not the same as vengeance. That's why we call it seeking justice and that is a very valid desire. 2. Vengeance doesn't necessarily begets more vengeance. It usually happens when one side is under the impression that the vengeance was uncalled for or was too harsh. The notion of death penalty is simply uncivilized. I'm coming from an Islamic background where death penalty is very normal. However i live in a western European country and i'm against the death penalty. The idea of introducing the death penalty has barbaric written all over it and nobody is openly opting for it. Not even the far right parties. Evidence can be manipulated or just wrongfully pointing towards the accused. Rehabilitation is simply a superior form of dealing with delinquency than punishment. That is simply a fact. However, it still can be better. It is not an anomaly to have criminals who have been in prison for more than 10 times. The judicial system keeps prioritizing the criminals needs over society. At some time you just need to say, after 3 crimes, you go to prison for a long time even if the crimes aren't all that big. It is highly irresponsible to allow the recidivist to go back to society until it goes really bad.
_The spirit of Muad'Dib is more than words, more than the letter of the law hich arises in his name. Muad'Dib must always be that inner outrage against the complacently powerful, against the charaltans and the dogmatic fanatics. It is that inner outrage which must have its say because Muad'dib taught us one thing above all others: that humans can only endure in a fraternity of social justice._ -- The Fedaykin Compact For the Emperor.
I would love to hear more about cancel culture through this lens. Failure of judicial system leading to mob vengeance. Vigilante revenge comes from a lack of a judicial system and/or a failure of the judicial system?
Your comment matches the description of the origin of the Sicilian mafia. Edit: And as it turns out, he specifically references cancel culture in response to "the libertarian wild west of the internet".
One of the few things that old ruffianThomas Hobbes said which I (mainly) agree with was - even a BAD soveriegn in doling out crap laws is better than the total chaos of tit-for-tat madfuckery (not a direct quote). I think of about a dozen collapsed states where rival militias took over, chasing the hope that getting rid of some godawful dictator would usher in a bright new start.
It's kinda funny how big cancel culture has gotten considering it rarely ever accomplishes anything. I suppose that's because it feels good in the moment to 'cancel' someone but it's another thing to actually take that rage and make it into something productive.
One important point is that not all Christians read revelations as violently and literally as others. I'll admit many fervent Christians use it to beat sinners over the head, but at least at my church, the fact that it is apocalyptic poetry was reasserted, and read as such. Jesus' teachings are foremost (though Jesus also threatens hell, just not for something you did, rather something you didn't do).
@@poopslappa1661 well in the context of this videos subject wouldnt that mean that disbelief is an evil that is to be corrected through justice that being hell.But in hell you then have the issue if you interpret it as rehabilitation or vengenace, ive seen interpration for both. I guess the real trouble is how can a good person then go to hell for disbelief, are they even good if the disbelieve, its an evil within itskef as stated earleir (then why exactly)?
@toppedtop5787 yeah I see what you mean. Though I think that if you're religious, God is all good and all just, so it's not really a question of whether or not what he does is good. He is the definition of good. The outcome is irrelevant, it's God's unknowable plan. I don't think hell can be construed as anything but a punishment lol. Christians usually construe sin as "separation from God" so disbelief fits in that pretty well. You are making a choice to separate yourself from God, so incur the consequence. I do see the argument of saying hell is just the punishment for disbelief (vengeance), but it seems like a genuine creator, if he exists, sort of upsets the balance. Vengeance or punishment, it doesn't really matter if justice and goodness embodied says so. Very unconvincing for an atheist, I'm aware 👍
@@poopslappa1661 im not an athiest, im agnostic ish like man im 16 im pretty sure im not exspected to have a strong position on this stuff yet. But ye it makes sense if god is litreally good and just and he has control over what it even means , then seperation from the good will be just the evil etc. Like ye, i dont view god as all that, i just struggle to believe that.
I am all for mercy and forgiveness. We all need to learn and act according to them. However, I am always very conflicted when it comes to criminals who violate another person sexually and emotionally. Property, one can replace, physical wounds may heal but the mental trauma from being violated sexually along with how society acts around it, makes such loss difficult to bounceback from. May be I am thinking emotionally, but how are we to ask the victim to forgive the culprit.
Amazing work! Extremely interesting and thought provoking.
Beyond wealth and equality, I suspect that these countries that emphasize rehabilitation might have a cultural outlook that might have understood perhaps the frailty of human nature with a lower emphasis on honour as compared to say the American culture, a focus on the collective rather than on the individual, group accountability over the personal, maybe...
Justice is vengeance done carefully and in accordance with stable rules. Careful in the sense that procedures are made to ensure someone is innocent until proven guilty and that the public can be assured that this is the case. In accordance with stable rules so as to be consistent, impartial and judge people the same across time, space and status.
Themis (Θέμις)
O sweet cruel hand of blinding dark of light!
Progenitor of faithless ease as advocate of disease:
plight of reason as fixéd feeling roaming grooves by day and night,
Wherefrom doth thou come, O Staunch Goddess meant to stop sight of blood
by intervenes of invisible Fate to launch fond bark of love.
Deny it here, refuse it there, fail capture bloodless dusk
To roil all pain in agony's name creating, not enough.
© James Barlow 2023
Although you touched on it I'm curious about what happens when people see the system itself as unjust? Love your artworks btw.
This is absolutely spot on. It is all about vengeance. And, as Robert, Sapolsky of Stanford has pointed out, seeing people suffer who have committed norm violations (in our eyes) causes a release of dopamine. So revenge has a neurophysiological basis. But it is nonetheless something we should fight against.
Fascinating. I didn't know that. Where did he say that?
I would be cautions about interpreting the role of neurotransmitters. It really bugs me, when dopamine is used as a seemingly scientific expression for pleasure or reward. The function of dopamine is much more complex and not nearly fully understood. One could say that it is in some brain regions a marker for salience and future expectations.
True justice can be incredibly complicated. It requires a nuanced understanding of the offense, the offender, what led them to it, and what in either their makeup _or society's_ needs adjustment to redress the wrong and reduce the chance of it happening again.
Unfortunately, in most societies, folks on the higher end of socioeconomic power don't want to go to the effort or expense to do that (especially if it reduces their power or otherwise mucks up the status quo that got them where they are and want to stay), while folks on the lower end are usually too stressed and exhausted (often by design) to consider any of that.
Vengeance is far simpler... at least in simple-minded theory. You've been hurt, and if you hurt the perpetrator enough, maybe they'll stop.
Not exactly forward-thinking, yes, but if your life is (or even just _feels_ like) a constant stream of pain, fear, loss, humiliation and abandonment, it may look like a far more expedient and effective solution than waiting for a justice system that may not be in good working order or genuinely have the best interests of more than a select few in mind.
I have grown extremely mistrustful of the entire notion of justice; it is an ideal that is nearly utopian in its aims, but generally dystopian in its applications. It is the byproduct of a left hemisphere that thinks it can construct outcomes which are, in my opinion, out of reach. At the small scale men can implement small corrections, reconciliations, and compensations; however, for every degree of separation from the actual individuals involved, the margin of error grows exponentially. For me then, justice is the prominence of God, while repentance and forgiveness are the means of healing that suit man's limited nature. Occasionally recompense can be found, but the people who bang on loudly about justice are the most unjust, often to the point of becoming diabolical.
Prominece of god as in judgment day, hell and heaven, doesnt that entail for disbelief to somehow be an act that needs to be brought to justice.
Great video. I've been thinking about this topic a bit for a while and your video was really interesting with regards to the judicial system as the mediating authority of vengeance between groups. Especially the bit about cancel culture as a form of extra-judicial mob-vengeance was a really interesting idea I hadn't heard.
Happy new year!
When I was a senior in high school, my civics teacher pointedly asked me, "What is justice?" I thought for a second, then said, "It's a euphemism for revenge." I heard a lot of gasps from my classmates. The teacher said, "That is a very cynical response. Anybody else?"
"Nope ...that about sums it up. Thanks!" ;-)
Agree, on one hand. What is it called when someone breaks my lamp and I ask them to replace it ???
You nailed it mate.
I'll take internet fiction for 500, Alex.
Definitely a cynical interpretation but one that more accurately reflects reality. Says more about society than you, to be fair
"Hunger for revenge". This appears to be the root cause of the evil discussed in this video. Evil done is forever part of the past and there is nothing we can do to make it go away. Retribution begets more evil and neither does it make the future better, nor does it fix the past. There is no such thing as negative evil that can somehow subtract from wrong already done. So why do harmed humans feel retribution will make the situation better? I can't find any philosophical work explaining the rationale for this.
"Even the score"? What is the point of keeping a score? What is the causal process that links the score to quality of life? On our death beds, will we even care? What, exactly is being scored, anyway? There is a nebulous feeling of justice, or injustice if the score is even, but we don't know another person's score so our knowledge of this playing field is incomplete and the measure at best relative. There's also a concept of justice in a zero sum game sense, but the amount of good or evil we can do to each other is unbounded, and we each own what we've conjured in our individual conscience. I just don't see how corrupting our own soul, risking punishment or retribution, and making the world a worse place will bring us happiness through justice, but we think it will. I feel like I am analyzing a psychosis.
7:08 this thought process is at least 2500 years old. The ancient Athenians initiated a sort of judicial system to stop this very problem: blood feuds. The point of Justice is to take the responsibility for vengeance out of the hands of the individual. Otherwise, every other person(if not more) would be a part time hitman. Real civilized Society starts at this realization
Yeah it would have been interesting to bring in Foucault's analysis of the Oedipus myth as the birth of a new thoe of justice but maybe another time
Don Corleone's justice
Bonasera : I ask you for justice.
Don Corleone : That is not justice. Your daughter is alive.
Bonasera : Let them suffer then as she suffers.
[the Don is silent]
Bonasera : How much shall I pay you?
[the Don turns away dismissively, but Bonasera stays on]
Don Corleone : Bonasera, Bonasera, what have I ever done to make you treat me so disrespectfully? If you'd come to me in friendship, this scum who ruined your daughter would be suffering this very day. And if by some chance an honest man like yourself made enemies they would become my enemies. And then, they would fear you.
Bonasera : Be my friend... Godfather.
[the Don at first shrugs, but upon hearing the title he lifts his hand, and a humbled Bonasera kisses the ring on it]
Don Corleone : Good.
[He places his hand around Bonasera in a paternal gesture]
Don Corleone : Some day, and that day may never come, I will call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day, consider this justice a gift on my daughter's wedding day.
[a gratified Bonasera offers his thanks and leaves]
Don Corleone : [to Hagen] Give this job to Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. I mean, we're not murderers, in spite of what this undertaker thinks "
You are a healer. This is about Palestine and Israel more than anything. and where to go from there and spread it everywhere. You really need to re-check the The Grand Inquisitor from Dostoevsky!
Wonderful video could you cover julius evola in the next video Although controversial i think his views are worth hearing for liberals
Precisely because of the vengeance based thinking in the collective justice system, I have always been mildly against this system. I really do think I would do better than it, if I had the same powers. But, should the collective justice system be banished, or should people like me lead this system? Probably a bit of both. Just like politics. We need better (more loving, wise) leaders, but we also need more agency for the individuals.
True justice is attained through forgiveness. Forgiveness of yourself, and forgiveness of the other. For the victim AND perpetrator. It think the desire for restitution and rehabilitation (if possible) comes out of this forgiveness automatically.
How about consequence and reparation? Rehabilitation can not be engineered.
Civilization rests on the principal that criminals are treated better than they treated their victims
Justice: Protect the innocent
Vengeance: Punish the guilty
First dibs on comments. Wishing you a wonderful New Year!
Justice is vengeance with a better PR firm
Justice, one hundred percent, Blessed Be.
It's worth noting what is the average quality of life in a country like Norway when comparing the penitentiary system.
And compare how the QoL of a typical citizen differs from the QoL of an inmate.
Norway has 2nd place in the Human Development Index. The US has 21st. Therefore you can't compare prisons in those countries in a vacuum.
Also worth comparing the frequency and depravity of the crimes.
Justice is Metallica, Vengeance is Judas Priest.
Breakin the lawr, breakin the lawr
I guess it's in the Eye of the Beholder.@@sputniktheradio8652
To all we wish: Happy New year!
Let all of us give now a cheer.
We wish us all only the best.
Now we will dance without a rest.
Blue mood must now go away -
Let’s celebrate this magic day.
And winter can melt even some ice:
The coming year will be nice.
Justice is objectish vengeance.
I think it comes down to the astronomical amounts of money to be extracted from the public by the arbitrating bodies.
"Not vengeance. JUISSTTIICCE!" - Uther Lightbringer
I have a couple issues with this piece. 1. The desire to not letting the perpetrator go away unpunished is not the same as vengeance. That's why we call it seeking justice and that is a very valid desire. 2. Vengeance doesn't necessarily begets more vengeance. It usually happens when one side is under the impression that the vengeance was uncalled for or was too harsh.
The notion of death penalty is simply uncivilized. I'm coming from an Islamic background where death penalty is very normal. However i live in a western European country and i'm against the death penalty. The idea of introducing the death penalty has barbaric written all over it and nobody is openly opting for it. Not even the far right parties. Evidence can be manipulated or just wrongfully pointing towards the accused.
Rehabilitation is simply a superior form of dealing with delinquency than punishment. That is simply a fact. However, it still can be better. It is not an anomaly to have criminals who have been in prison for more than 10 times. The judicial system keeps prioritizing the criminals needs over society. At some time you just need to say, after 3 crimes, you go to prison for a long time even if the crimes aren't all that big. It is highly irresponsible to allow the recidivist to go back to society until it goes really bad.
Girard, a hero in my book. Thank you.
No. Thank you. I am a poet and visiting lecturer at an art college at 73. To listen to a younger generation taking it on assures me.
_The spirit of Muad'Dib is more than words, more than the letter of the law hich arises in his name. Muad'Dib must always be that inner outrage against the complacently powerful, against the charaltans and the dogmatic fanatics. It is that inner outrage which must have its say because Muad'dib taught us one thing above all others: that humans can only endure in a fraternity of social justice._
-- The Fedaykin Compact
For the Emperor.
Only God is just, only him can judge us without bias.
Batman watches this video everyday while monologuing to himself
Love it
I would love to hear more about cancel culture through this lens. Failure of judicial system leading to mob vengeance.
Vigilante revenge comes from a lack of a judicial system and/or a failure of the judicial system?
Your comment matches the description of the origin of the Sicilian mafia.
Edit: And as it turns out, he specifically references cancel culture in response to "the libertarian wild west of the internet".
One of the few things that old ruffianThomas Hobbes said which I (mainly) agree with was - even a BAD soveriegn in doling out crap laws is better than the total chaos of tit-for-tat madfuckery (not a direct quote). I think of about a dozen collapsed states where rival militias took over, chasing the hope that getting rid of some godawful dictator would usher in a bright new start.
It's kinda funny how big cancel culture has gotten considering it rarely ever accomplishes anything. I suppose that's because it feels good in the moment to 'cancel' someone but it's another thing to actually take that rage and make it into something productive.
C'mon, man. There's no justice.
Vengeance can be unjustified....
Great video man. Keep up the grind! And happy new year ❤
The answer is Batman.
Ba dum tssss…
❤🇨🇭
What is it called when someone breaks my lamp and i ask them to replace it ??? TIA
Exactly. Justice is restoration/compensation. It differs from vengeance.
So poignant
Great video
good one 👏
"loving and forgiving religions like Christianity" lmaoooo ok
One important point is that not all Christians read revelations as violently and literally as others. I'll admit many fervent Christians use it to beat sinners over the head, but at least at my church, the fact that it is apocalyptic poetry was reasserted, and read as such. Jesus' teachings are foremost (though Jesus also threatens hell, just not for something you did, rather something you didn't do).
Is the not doing , disbelief?
@toppedtop5787 yeah. Have any ideas on that?
@@poopslappa1661 well in the context of this videos subject wouldnt that mean that disbelief is an evil that is to be corrected through justice that being hell.But in hell you then have the issue if you interpret it as rehabilitation or vengenace, ive seen interpration for both.
I guess the real trouble is how can a good person then go to hell for disbelief, are they even good if the disbelieve, its an evil within itskef as stated earleir (then why exactly)?
@toppedtop5787 yeah I see what you mean. Though I think that if you're religious, God is all good and all just, so it's not really a question of whether or not what he does is good. He is the definition of good. The outcome is irrelevant, it's God's unknowable plan.
I don't think hell can be construed as anything but a punishment lol. Christians usually construe sin as "separation from God" so disbelief fits in that pretty well. You are making a choice to separate yourself from God, so incur the consequence.
I do see the argument of saying hell is just the punishment for disbelief (vengeance), but it seems like a genuine creator, if he exists, sort of upsets the balance. Vengeance or punishment, it doesn't really matter if justice and goodness embodied says so. Very unconvincing for an atheist, I'm aware 👍
@@poopslappa1661 im not an athiest, im agnostic ish like man im 16 im pretty sure im not exspected to have a strong position on this stuff yet.
But ye it makes sense if god is litreally good and just and he has control over what it even means , then seperation from the good will be just the evil etc.
Like ye, i dont view god as all that, i just struggle to believe that.