I've always been fascinated by turtles and sharks that supposedly live to be hundreds of years old. Imagine the animal just doing its thing, meanwhile all these massive historical events for humans are happening. Like the turtle was around during the American Revolution, still kicking it today.
Turtles, crabs, snakes, dolphins- archetypal shapes for specific lifestyles. I think we'll find similar creatures filling similar roles on other worlds.
Convergence in tetrapods especially really shouldnt be surprising, because the tetrapod toolkit is fairly limited. Four limbs... they can lose limbs, but dont gain new ones, the basic arrangement of organs is fairly set, and bilateral symmetry is standardized. The likelihood of a alien species convergently approaching the basic tetrapod toolkit and then also convergently evolving these Earth forms seems incredibly unlikely to me. Even after a billion years, non-tetrapods havnt convergently evolved the tetrapod toolkit even with the same exact environmental pressures. 🤷
I’ve been reading a book on Ancient Reptiles and it’s fascinating how diverse the entirety of Sauropterygia was and in particular it feels like Placodonts and Saurosphargids were made to mess with how we put together turtle evolution 😂
@@DawnFire05 Smithsonian Books Ancient Sea Reptiles, by Darren Naish. I got it for the beautiful illustrations but it’s so knowledgeable. I’ve wanted to start reading more and I realized “wait I already read paleontology papers I should just get books on it”
Also published in 2022 so very timely except some new discoveries that don’t really change much save the fact that saurosphargids are apart of sayropterygia as stated in this video
I really like the short explanation of convergent evolution I first heard from Casual Geographic - "convergent evolution is like two people getting the same answer on the same test". It very well illustrates that under similar evolutionary pressures it makes sense for unrelated organisms to develop similar adaptations.
Convergent evolution according to this meaning is simple learning. Two people getting the same answer learned the same thing to be tested on. Therefore they are supposed to get the same answer. Thousands of miles apart. Centuries from each other. Geez. Can you make it more difficult please.
So basically all life wants to evolve into two forms: turtles and crabs. Not coincidentally, both are slow-moving and heavily-armored creatures that mostly (but not exclusively) live in or near water. It just occurred to me that this process of things evolving into turtles could be happening right now. Look at marine iguanas compared to their land-lubbing cousins: a wider, flatter body is pretty evident even though the species is less than 5 million years old. Who knows what they'll look like in 50 million years, if they still exist.
The fact I watched this and said "oh wow so like armadillos" immediately before he mentioned armadillos and then said "ooo like ankylosaurus" immediately before he mentioned ankylosaurs made me unreasonably proud of myself for 1:15 in the morning
Dude, you have an uncanny gift for synthesizing vast amounts of information, and in turn interpreting and communicating the results clearly. Thanks so much for sharing your research with us!!
Imagine if more humans were as intelligent, educated, and protective of nature as he is. Most humans are selfish, stupid, ignorant, uncaring about nature, materialistic, obnoxious, and polluting.
Nah he lost me at suggesting organisms copied the first one to get good at surviving in a particular niche, like it was like cheating in an exam or rebuilding your battle bot.
You mean he's organized? Great skill, lol. He's going in chronological order making it simple to stay on topic and tell the story from beginning to end. Again, great skill. Lol.
The plastron emerging first makes a lot of sense to me- as typically many animals focus their defense on/over their underbelly, since the vital organs are arranged closer to the abdomen than the back. Such as Primordial pouch in cats. The Carapace forming afterwards seems very logical
Especially if they were living in the water but breathing air, meaning they would often swim near the top and possibly be attacked from below (I am picturing the way sharks come up to attack their prey) so having a harder belly would be more important than a harder back....if they were being dive bombed by birds perhaps it would be different.
Humans have this too in the form of fat deposits around our stomach, though only some humans primarily store fat there. The downside of this is that it also puts you at a higher risk of developing Diabetes Type 2, so in the modern world this kinda sucks actually.
My instincts tell me that this "turtle" body form is a consequence of surviving in shallow seas, and when I say shallow, think less than a few feet deep. This broadened body plan could have you navigate these areas without breaking the surface, be able to pin yourself to the bottom as a defensive tactic and as a consequence the broadening of the body plan would probably also have the bones naturally widen to continue the flattened body plan and eventually fusing.
@@DKShoneys-dc2dp Oh i have no doubt....just like fish that are vertically flattened....creating one dimension of your anatomy to be as large as possible makes it harder for you to be swallowed and thin makes you harder to notice
Probably mostly just that they are all significantly armored; armored creatures are naturally gonna be resistant to predation. Armor functions without any effort, unlike evasive and offensive methods of defense that require keen perception and skill to be effective.
God apparantly has a thing for small little armored dudes considering how many trilobites there were as well. Humans seem like more of an afterthought.
"crabs" only appear in arthropods, "turtles" only appear in tetrapods, while "Worms" transcend phyla, if you include the 10+ separate times lizards became legless, amphibians that become eel-like, even all the different unrelated fish that become eel-like, then you find every single animal phylum (except echinoderms, sponges, and cnidarians) have at least one member called a "worm"
Ben, thank you for this and your other turtle evo video! I've been wanting to wrap my head around this for a long time but, as you said, it's a mess of rabbit hole! Debates in paleontology are infamously hard to follow.
You ever think about how it's weird that turtles and frogs both have spilt into a water version and land version turtles being tortoises and frogs being toads
I had to research this lol. Tortoise is in fact a land turtle but a toad is not a land frog. Frog and toad are in different branches wheres as tortoise is a subset of turtles so close !
We actually distinguish tortoises, turtles, and terrapins in the U.S. too. Although admittedly the latter is only referred to when we are speaking of a particular species. Maybe our scientists don't make these distinctions - but the ordinary person does. Really enjoy all your shows! You can't trust all RUclips videos on such subjects - but you bring all the current studies - including the ones that challenge each other. In other words, you don't just state "facts" (which may either be out of date or still under discussion) as so many "scientific" YT channels do - so I know I can trust you for the current information. Excellent work. Thank you. Enjoying your new backgrounds too.
I have a pet tortoise and pretty much anytime someone sees him they call him a turtle. At least in my experience, people call anything that looks similar to that a turtle
turtle is the catchall phrase but when we need to actually specify we'll say tortoise or turtle or terrapin, at least in my area. for other places it might change as america is so large things tend to change from place to place.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck... unless, of course, it's a turtle or a crab. Everything crabs.
that was super interesting! I'd love to see more about cases of convergent evolution for sure. Maybe "everytime things evolved into dolphins" (the bodyplan shows up a lot), everytime things evolved to have horns on their face, everytime things evolved into dogs (andrewsarchus looked a lot like a kind of canine but wasn't one; hyenas are not canines despite appearances; hyaenodon is also very dog-like in apperance despite not being a canine; and then there are thylacines ofc ... and those are just the ones i can come up with right now). Convergent evolution is so fascinating
Andrewsarchus wasn't at all dog/wolf-like like it is still time to time portrayed. It was a very close relative to the Entelodonts, aka the Killer Pig or Hell Pigs, who themselves, despite their name, were close relatives to Hippos and Cetacean (Whales and Dolphins) than Pigs. Andrewsarchus was firstly thought to be member of a group of hoofed dog-like animals, them once thought to be related to Cetacean, the Mesonyxian. Which was still believed by some people to be the case at the early 2000's, and hence why Andrewsarchus is depicted as a Mesonyxian, and as such as dog/wolf-like, in the BBC documentary "Walking With Beasts" in episode 2 "Whale Killer". An great obsolete image that still somewhat persist despite the new recent discoveries.
‘Trees’ is one example. Any homoplasy polyphyletic group will do. Also Dogs ‘copied’ andrewsarchus since andrew came first. The canines are the imposters 🤪
Technically plants dont have true ovaries since their ‘ovaries’ evolved completely independantly of ours. Alot of biology revolves around polyphyly. “True” is such an inaccurate word though. Who are we to say which taxon is the most authentic of the body plan?
@@RossGirven I’m Canadian, so I’m used to hearing it pronounced ‘tor-tiss’. Not saying that’s the ‘right’ way to say it, just what I’m most familiar with, so I like hearing other variations.
One of my favorite convergence in evolution is lungs. I know it's not a true lung, but the fact betta fish and other fish species can breath air is so incredible to me. And how it's just an adaptation for the poor oxygen levels in the betta fish's natural environment. Or other fish being able to do it to move from one body of water to another. Absolutely incredible.
dawkins has a nice long passage on turtle evolution in "the greatest show on earth" his book on evidence for evolution, describing this very peculiarity.
A strong foundation is required for any solid structure, whether it is something man made or something that is a product of nature. How could the top of the shell develop first if there was nothing below to support it?
actually for me bottom shell being first has more logic in it but I think I will never get how the entire skeleton grown out . after long years of study paleontology and sedimentology I didn't even come close to understanding this type of evolution. I still think its totally impossible without a written genetic program.
@@Grama04 you’re not an evolutionary biologist. Your qualifications in other fields don’t make you any more adept at understanding evolution, the same way my qualifications with databases doesn’t make me an expert in spreadsheets, merely an amateur with an interest in them. Don’t Dunning-Kruger yourself into being incurious or writing off a natural phenomenon as false.
Conceptually, couldn't several beetle species be considered turtle like? With pre-retracted heads, hard shells on top and bottom, short thick legs, I think they might fit.
I absolutely want to know more about turtles. They're so weird that they're amazing. And yes, I want to see other examples of convergent evolution. The Foosa looking like cats immediately came to mind.
Fossa are close cousins to cats, so that might not be convergent evolution. Now, the quolls are definitely an example of convergent evolution - they're small carnivorous marsupials that have often been called "marsupial cats" or "native cats".
Americans are aware of the distinction between turtles and tortoises, though ive never heard of a terrapin. Americans do not pronounce the oi in tortoise, we say "tore-tiss" phonetically. The word turtle is sometimes used to refer to all shelled reptiles in contexts where a distinction between the two is not necessary.
Super interesting! I didn't actually know anything else evolved into a cheloniform body plan except the little Ankylosaur and the Armadillos! "Every Time Things Have Evolved Into Noodles/Worms/Snakes" would be super interesting, but also probably take a year to make and be 3 hours long lol
I have a hard time wrapping my head around genetic changes happening over millions of years. Like I’m expecting this to be like a day and night difference right away.
It’s not quite the same, but convergent technologies that were independently discovered by people around the world have always interested me. Like the bow and arrow, people all over the place figured out that one.
Or like swords. Europe and Japan developed different styles of swords of course, with European swords being more narrow tipped for stabbing through the gaps on thick plate armor, whereas Japanese swords were made more for cutting through thick wooden or light sectioned armor. Also because of the iron ore quality in Japan, they had to construct their swords a very certain way (by melting black sand in a furnace, and folding this several times over, after which they add a layer of carbon treated steel on top of it). But despite all of this, both styles utilize similar cutting techniques, parrying and fighting styles. There are differences but there are also alot of similarities.
@@hedgehog3180 ancient doesn’t mean it was developed by one group. Multiple different groups discovered fire and simple tools without contacting each other.
Convergent evolution is always so fascinating... and when discssed on a channel this entertaining and informative it makes for a great experience. Thanks for all the wonderful content
the convergence of sociality/eusociality in different groups would be cool, like how ants, bees, termites and naked mole rats have each evolved complex social societies
Thank you for this absolutely interesting, high quality episode! I enjoy all episodes, but this one sits defenetly in my favorite top 10 list! And YES please, I would love more episodes about convergent evolution!
Convergent Evolution.... Sharks: Look at how effective we are at swimming and catching fish! Future Dolphins: We're about to do what's called a pro gamer move.
Here in the states...we also call them turtles if they spend the majority of their life in water, teripensi if it's 50/50ish and tortoises (not pronounced like a phsycopath) for purely land variants. The UKs assumption of understanding with u.s. language barriers makes me chuckle. We don't call everything turtles. Unless you're 5.
Hey Ben! I’d love for you to make this a series. I came up with some content ideas I would love to see you cover: 1. Mimicry/convergent evolution in insects (example: the fossilized Oregramma illecebrosa vs modern owl butterfly 2. Convergent evolution in mammalian apex predators (Canidae, Thylacinidae, Feliformia/Hyaenidae) 3. Thylacosmilidae vs Felidae/Sabert-toothed cats 4. Evolution of carnivorism in plants, convergent evolution amongst pitcher plants (Nepenthaceae, Sarraceniaceae and Cephalotaceae) 5. Evolution of olfactory glomeruli (such as in neopteran insects and some molluscs but not all outgroups to these groups) 6. Electrogenisis in fish 7. Echolocation in bats and toothed whales 8. The multiple times syncytin genes have developed from endogenous retroviral elements on multiple occasions and independently in diverse mammalian species. 9. Old world and new world vultures 10. Evolution of venom in snakes, arthropods, platypus, etc. 11. Toxicity in animals derived from toxins in food source (such as poisonous feathers in birds such as the pitohui, ifrita bird, hoopoe, spur-winged goose, red warbler, etc). 12. Lobsters and scorpions 13. Symbiotic relationships between flowers/plants and insects/birds/other species. Sorry if there are any spelling mistakes, I typed this on the down-low as I’m supposed to be paying attention to a work meeting right now. 😅 Cheers, mate! Love your channel.
As a Biological Sciences student working on a herpetology lab, I can sey that your channel is a true gem. Thanks for all the effort, informations and sources availables
The convergent phenomenon makes sense. Once there is a niche sorted out where heavier bones are an advantage, which could be ballast or could be protection from below giving value to a plastrum, they will be slower and the logic of survival pushes them towards a full-on armor tank. If you were designing combat vehicles, fast movers can have a thousand different shapes depending on expected terrain so long as you keep it light, but equipment which starts out heavy has one sensible way to go: shield it until it becomes its own garage.
I am very supportive of more material on turtles. To meet sea turtles, especially to see them hatch, is to find them deeply compelling. I even helped to get two females back into the water safely. One was dragging herself back into the water over horribly sharp coral, and headed straight for a rock coral wall! The things we animals will do to propagate our species.
This channel is pure gold. Congratulations for the incredible research and keep up the amazing work. Thank you for inspiring me to keep on studying. You have earned a subscriber!
1:45 we Americans use the 3 terms: Turtle, Tortoise, and Terrapin. Terrapin is kind of rarely used, though. Only when being technical, as terrapins are often called turtles for ease (but never tortoises).
I am totally new to your channel but I really liked this video. Well-researched, not obscuring the details ir oversimplifying the complexities. All presented in a really captivating way. I'd definitely enjoy more videos of this sort in the future. As it is, this was an easy sub and a thumbs up from me. Great video! Also also, extra points for not omitting armadillos/glyptodonts. ❤👍
If I had to choose an ancient marine reptile to be brought back magically It would've been Archelon, watching Leatherbacks blows my mind on how much bigger an Archelon was. Great video as always.
Great video! I'd definitely love to see more on turtle evolution. One evolutionary question I've had is why are there no Testunididaes in Australia (there are some in Sulawasi that are across the Wallace Line)
I presume that turtles evolved in an area far away from Australia at a time when that continent had separated far away from the rest of the former Pangea. At this point there's no way for terrestrial turtles to migrate to Australia. But, are there at least sea turtles nesting on Australian shores today?
Testinididaes are the terrestrial tortoises. I used the order name because freshwater turtles are typically called tortoises in Australia. My question is pertaining to the terrestrial Chelonians.
As an American I would like to say that turtles, tortoises and terrapins are all words used in the states. Hell, my state college's mascot is a terrapin
idk why i was expecting to learn something like other species going through turtle evolution.. like a comodo dragon going through a phase of developing. a turtle-like shell
I'm so grateful you spoke about the Glyptodonts. I'd heard a bit about them, and they captivated my imagination... But I'd never been able to properly visualize them.
Just FYI, we call them turtles, terrafins and tortoises too. 😂 Or we simplify it by calling them box turtles, tortoises, sea turtles and river turtles to distinguish between the land based and aquatic. It makes it easier to know if they need water using this method. That's why you hear it said that way more often. It's for educational purposes for people who don't really care about turtles.
It was sort of touched on with the phytosaur image near the beginning, but animals evolving the crocodile body plan/lifestyle would make for a cool video. I think the croc body plan evolved three or four times before actual crocodilians, including in what I think was the largest ever amphibian, Prionosuchus. Also, "saber teeth" have evolved so many times it's actually weird that there isn't some sort of saber toothed carnivore running around somewhere on Earth right now.
Having seen and handled a local small turtle here where I live for a very short time (I released it, did not want to cause it stress) I was fascinated by their structure. They are amazingly tough and strong even the small ones
I'd love to see more videos on convergence. I'd really like to see one on plants if that's something you'd be interested in. Ideas include trees/fruiting and animal pollination/ insectivory. I'd also love to see convergence in bivalves and molluscs.
America does use tortoise to refer to members of the testudines order that live primarily on land, with turtles referring to the ones that live in water, salty or fresh. Though it is interesting to learn that you Brits have a specific word for freshwater turtles
I think you also have to look at plesiomorphic characteristics that predispose certain lineages to evolve a certain way. They’re not just evolving convergently in response to environmental pressures, they’re being funneled by their shared ancestral features. Like the animal you showed in your thumbnail is actually a stem-turtle that independently evolved derived turtle characters like a shell and oar-like flippers, probably because they had a bauplan that predisposed oar-like swimming styles and this then allows evolution of a shell since the thorax doesn’t need to undulate. Likewise other members of this stem turtle group like the pliosaurs shared this oared swimming style. And you can also mention how archosaurs repeatedly evolved bipedal predatory forms- unlike synapsids- and this is probably down to how the archosaur/reptile bauplan involved the tail in musculature used for the hind limbs, which synapsids didn’t so they remained mostly quadrupedal and often lost their tails. So “convergence” is only half the story.
@Nelumbo_lutea Many quadrupedal synapsids lost their tails. This essentially didn't happen with reptiles, except maybe flying birds, and even they kept a functional pygostyle. That's the point.
I...don't know where you heard that Americans refer to all testudines as "turtles" -- I've spent much of my life in the US and I've never met an American who didn't understand the differences. It's one of the earliest animal environmental distinctions children learn, especially for those living in swampy or desert regions.
0:24 You may call it what you like. It is a stark lack of imagination from these living organisms. Great channel you got here, by the way. Interesting, always fresh and intelligent. Cheers.
I know you usually cover animals on this channel, but I recently noticed that ferns, cycads and palms all have very similar morphologies, while being completely unrelated. I am really curious for an explanation as to why this 'body plan' works and if there are more examples. If the subject is too far from your expertise I would also gladly watch more turtle videos
@@reeyees50 dude, have you ever looked at grass and an oak? Or seqoia and moss? Just because the dont move they dont look the same. This is the same as saying that all vertebrates are similar because they have 4 limbs
I've always been fascinated by turtles and sharks that supposedly live to be hundreds of years old. Imagine the animal just doing its thing, meanwhile all these massive historical events for humans are happening. Like the turtle was around during the American Revolution, still kicking it today.
No matter how much humans fight over resources, the turtles still just be turtling around.
Unfortunately, they won't. Because most of our resources get turned into trash and end up in the ocean, fucking up those turtles.@@Dedjkeorrn42
@@Dedjkeorrn42Until we further damage the ecosystem and kill them all off :(
Just shows you how young the United States is.
That could make for an interesting video; a video about animal species that live long lives.
Turtles, crabs, snakes, dolphins- archetypal shapes for specific lifestyles.
I think we'll find similar creatures filling similar roles on other worlds.
Or aliens that look like those creatures.
Fluid dymanics is true everywhere.
Without a doubt on planets like ours, imagine on other types of planets there's just some mind blowing stuff tho.
Turtles, Crabs, Snakes, Dolphins. Long ago the 4 body layouts lived in harmony, but everything changed when the snakes attacked.
only if we bring the creatures there to fill them.
Convergence in tetrapods especially really shouldnt be surprising, because the tetrapod toolkit is fairly limited. Four limbs... they can lose limbs, but dont gain new ones, the basic arrangement of organs is fairly set, and bilateral symmetry is standardized. The likelihood of a alien species convergently approaching the basic tetrapod toolkit and then also convergently evolving these Earth forms seems incredibly unlikely to me. Even after a billion years, non-tetrapods havnt convergently evolved the tetrapod toolkit even with the same exact environmental pressures. 🤷
Eventually the turtle will evolve into crabs
Underrated comment
Crab is the final form
Turtles are just crabs with less legs.
And crabs into crabbier crabs 🦀
It's almost there
I’ve been reading a book on Ancient Reptiles and it’s fascinating how diverse the entirety of Sauropterygia was and in particular it feels like Placodonts and Saurosphargids were made to mess with how we put together turtle evolution 😂
Title?
What book is it?
@@DawnFire05 Smithsonian Books Ancient Sea Reptiles, by Darren Naish. I got it for the beautiful illustrations but it’s so knowledgeable. I’ve wanted to start reading more and I realized “wait I already read paleontology papers I should just get books on it”
Also published in 2022 so very timely except some new discoveries that don’t really change much save the fact that saurosphargids are apart of sayropterygia as stated in this video
@@Funkiotologistwhat was wrong with Curtis wanting to know the title of the book?
I really like the short explanation of convergent evolution I first heard from Casual Geographic - "convergent evolution is like two people getting the same answer on the same test". It very well illustrates that under similar evolutionary pressures it makes sense for unrelated organisms to develop similar adaptations.
And the two people can be thousands of miles apart.
@maryeckel9682 and millions of years apart
Convergent evolution according to this meaning is simple learning. Two people getting the same answer learned the same thing to be tested on. Therefore they are supposed to get the same answer. Thousands of miles apart. Centuries from each other. Geez. Can you make it more difficult please.
It assumes however that they got the same answers purely by luck
@@philipbaity7083 they got many answers by random chance, but only the correct ones survived.
I feel personally attacked that you assume I don’t know the difference between a turtle and a tortoise.
The arrogance lol
Turtle: tortoise that lives mostly in water
Tortoise: turtle that lives ONLY on land
He said he’d keep it simple and use American terms, they love to yap on about why things aren’t made to suit them, metric vs imperial, mph vs kph etc
I was thinking the same thing.
@@TayWoode we know what he said, I’m telling you that Americans absolutely differentiate between Turtles/Tortoises/etc so he’s wrong
So basically all life wants to evolve into two forms: turtles and crabs. Not coincidentally, both are slow-moving and heavily-armored creatures that mostly (but not exclusively) live in or near water.
It just occurred to me that this process of things evolving into turtles could be happening right now. Look at marine iguanas compared to their land-lubbing cousins: a wider, flatter body is pretty evident even though the species is less than 5 million years old. Who knows what they'll look like in 50 million years, if they still exist.
Animals losing their limbs and turning to snakes have been more common. The worm body plan is much more prolific than either crabs or turtles.
The shark body plan is super popular, too.
@@RTaco ?? Only among sharks.
@@JohnDrummondPhoto Ichthyosaurs and cetaceans, too.
@@RTaco good point.
The fact I watched this and said "oh wow so like armadillos" immediately before he mentioned armadillos and then said "ooo like ankylosaurus" immediately before he mentioned ankylosaurs made me unreasonably proud of myself for 1:15 in the morning
Ur gay
Dude I’m here at 1:09 😂
lmao
I would love more convergent evolution videos. It's one of my favorite phenomenons in paleontology!
same!!
Me too.
Agreed!!
Same! Its my favorite topic!
x6 :)
Dude, you have an uncanny gift for synthesizing vast amounts of information, and in turn interpreting and communicating the results clearly. Thanks so much for sharing your research with us!!
This is my first time seeing him and I couldn't agree more! I subscribed :)
Imagine if more humans were as intelligent, educated, and protective of nature as he is. Most humans are selfish, stupid, ignorant, uncaring about nature, materialistic, obnoxious, and polluting.
@@IsayahH-xm7qlEvolve
Nah he lost me at suggesting organisms copied the first one to get good at surviving in a particular niche, like it was like cheating in an exam or rebuilding your battle bot.
You mean he's organized? Great skill, lol. He's going in chronological order making it simple to stay on topic and tell the story from beginning to end. Again, great skill. Lol.
“I can’t wait to see what turns into a turtle next” *slowly transforms into master oogway*
“There are no accidents.”
sorry for thoughting that youtuber
Dugongs have massive ribs.
You don't have to be lol @@cevatkokbudak6414
The plastron emerging first makes a lot of sense to me- as typically many animals focus their defense on/over their underbelly, since the vital organs are arranged closer to the abdomen than the back. Such as Primordial pouch in cats. The Carapace forming afterwards seems very logical
Especially if they were living in the water but breathing air, meaning they would often swim near the top and possibly be attacked from below (I am picturing the way sharks come up to attack their prey) so having a harder belly would be more important than a harder back....if they were being dive bombed by birds perhaps it would be different.
Humans have this too in the form of fat deposits around our stomach, though only some humans primarily store fat there. The downside of this is that it also puts you at a higher risk of developing Diabetes Type 2, so in the modern world this kinda sucks actually.
@@hedgehog3180 Also fat doesn't stop you from dying from loss of blood.
My instincts tell me that this "turtle" body form is a consequence of surviving in shallow seas, and when I say shallow, think less than a few feet deep. This broadened body plan could have you navigate these areas without breaking the surface, be able to pin yourself to the bottom as a defensive tactic and as a consequence the broadening of the body plan would probably also have the bones naturally widen to continue the flattened body plan and eventually fusing.
Plus if something does see you and/or step on you the shell provides protection.
@@DKShoneys-dc2dp Oh i have no doubt....just like fish that are vertically flattened....creating one dimension of your anatomy to be as large as possible makes it harder for you to be swallowed and thin makes you harder to notice
ankylosaurs:
"am I not turtle-y enough for the turtle club?
turtle - turtle! *turtle noises*"
OMG, I love you so much for making this reference 😂❤
@@zerjiozerjioi don't get it pls explain 😢😭
@@Gulubaits from a movie called Master of Disguise
Turtles, crabs, and beetles are apparently gawd''s favorite children.
Probably mostly just that they are all significantly armored; armored creatures are naturally gonna be resistant to predation. Armor functions without any effort, unlike evasive and offensive methods of defense that require keen perception and skill to be effective.
God apparantly has a thing for small little armored dudes considering how many trilobites there were as well. Humans seem like more of an afterthought.
No... So called black people are
"crabs" only appear in arthropods, "turtles" only appear in tetrapods, while "Worms" transcend phyla, if you include the 10+ separate times lizards became legless, amphibians that become eel-like, even all the different unrelated fish that become eel-like, then you find every single animal phylum (except echinoderms, sponges, and cnidarians) have at least one member called a "worm"
@@hedgehog3180we had the resources and the brain to make ourselves armored
Ben, thank you for this and your other turtle evo video! I've been wanting to wrap my head around this for a long time but, as you said, it's a mess of rabbit hole!
Debates in paleontology are infamously hard to follow.
You ever think about how it's weird that turtles and frogs both have spilt into a water version and land version turtles being tortoises and frogs being toads
I had to research this lol. Tortoise is in fact a land turtle but a toad is not a land frog. Frog and toad are in different branches wheres as tortoise is a subset of turtles so close !
Basically a turtle can evolve into a tortoise but a frog can't evolve into a toad
I would absolutely like to see you cover other examples in this level of detail. Keep up the great work.
Thank you! I'll definitely be doing some more videos like this :)
@@BenGThomas Yes would also love to see a part 2 on later turtle evolution.
@@BenGThomas yes me too i would very much like to see more videos like this!
We actually distinguish tortoises, turtles, and terrapins in the U.S. too. Although admittedly the latter is only referred to when we are speaking of a particular species. Maybe our scientists don't make these distinctions - but the ordinary person does. Really enjoy all your shows! You can't trust all RUclips videos on such subjects - but you bring all the current studies - including the ones that challenge each other. In other words, you don't just state "facts" (which may either be out of date or still under discussion) as so many "scientific" YT channels do - so I know I can trust you for the current information. Excellent work. Thank you. Enjoying your new backgrounds too.
Seconded. I haven't heard of terrapins before, but tortoises and turtles are different and not used interchangeably.
I have a pet tortoise and pretty much anytime someone sees him they call him a turtle. At least in my experience, people call anything that looks similar to that a turtle
turtle is the catchall phrase but when we need to actually specify we'll say tortoise or turtle or terrapin, at least in my area. for other places it might change as america is so large things tend to change from place to place.
@@offbeat4772 Not my experience where i live, though we dont really have turtles here but have tortoises.
Our scientists distinguish them too afaik! Idk where he got that. Calling every shelled reptile a “turtle” is uneducated, not American!
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck... unless, of course, it's a turtle or a crab. Everything crabs.
Turtles and crabs. Obviously tank builds are the way to go.
Sheer HP/Damage Tank builds
What about the crocodile?
@@rageboibruh Stretched out turtle.
Crabs are berserkers duh, and scorpions are rogues😅
Carefully checks for placoderms before agreeing 😬
that was super interesting!
I'd love to see more about cases of convergent evolution for sure.
Maybe "everytime things evolved into dolphins" (the bodyplan shows up a lot), everytime things evolved to have horns on their face, everytime things evolved into dogs (andrewsarchus looked a lot like a kind of canine but wasn't one; hyenas are not canines despite appearances; hyaenodon is also very dog-like in apperance despite not being a canine; and then there are thylacines ofc ... and those are just the ones i can come up with right now).
Convergent evolution is so fascinating
Andrewsarchus wasn't at all dog/wolf-like like it is still time to time portrayed.
It was a very close relative to the Entelodonts, aka the Killer Pig or Hell Pigs, who themselves, despite their name, were close relatives to Hippos and Cetacean (Whales and Dolphins) than Pigs.
Andrewsarchus was firstly thought to be member of a group of hoofed dog-like animals, them once thought to be related to Cetacean, the Mesonyxian.
Which was still believed by some people to be the case at the early 2000's, and hence why Andrewsarchus is depicted as a Mesonyxian, and as such as dog/wolf-like, in the BBC documentary "Walking With Beasts" in episode 2 "Whale Killer".
An great obsolete image that still somewhat persist despite the new recent discoveries.
‘Trees’ is one example. Any homoplasy polyphyletic group will do.
Also Dogs ‘copied’ andrewsarchus since andrew came first. The canines are the imposters 🤪
Technically plants dont have true ovaries since their ‘ovaries’ evolved completely independantly of ours. Alot of biology revolves around polyphyly.
“True” is such an inaccurate word though. Who are we to say which taxon is the most authentic of the body plan?
@@dudotolivier6363 if dogs grew to the size of rhinos they would look like carnivorous hippos too.
@@lorencalfe6446 - "Dire Hippos"?
1:42 As always, can't get enough of how Ben says tortoise.
Tohtoece
That is how you say tortoise…
Tau toices
@@RossGirven I’m Canadian, so I’m used to hearing it pronounced ‘tor-tiss’. Not saying that’s the ‘right’ way to say it, just what I’m most familiar with, so I like hearing other variations.
@ I see. Now I get what your talking a boot bud 😉
It would be fun to see a video of this kind on worms, snakes, eels, weasels, and all the elongated critters built for digging and/or swimming.
Convergent evolution and parallel evolution have always been fascinating to me. I would love to see more videos like this one.
Okay you Turtle, but do you Crab?
Crabs are turtles but with mouth hands.
Turtel are just crabs with shrinking neck
One of my favorite convergence in evolution is lungs. I know it's not a true lung, but the fact betta fish and other fish species can breath air is so incredible to me. And how it's just an adaptation for the poor oxygen levels in the betta fish's natural environment. Or other fish being able to do it to move from one body of water to another. Absolutely incredible.
A similar example is blood which I think evolved at least thrice.
Wow I would've never guessed the bottom of the shell was the first to form. Turtles are so fascinating 🐢
dawkins has a nice long passage on turtle evolution in "the greatest show on earth" his book on evidence for evolution, describing this very peculiarity.
I enjoyed learning about how I was supposed to believe tortoises are turtles, because I'm American. Unfortunately I missed that lesson.
A strong foundation is required for any solid structure, whether it is something man made or something that is a product of nature. How could the top of the shell develop first if there was nothing below to support it?
actually for me bottom shell being first has more logic in it but I think I will never get how the entire skeleton grown out . after long years of study paleontology and sedimentology I didn't even come close to understanding this type of evolution. I still think its totally impossible without a written genetic program.
@@Grama04 you’re not an evolutionary biologist. Your qualifications in other fields don’t make you any more adept at understanding evolution, the same way my qualifications with databases doesn’t make me an expert in spreadsheets, merely an amateur with an interest in them. Don’t Dunning-Kruger yourself into being incurious or writing off a natural phenomenon as false.
Do turtles go down rabbit holes?
Could Achilles outrun these turtles in a foot race?
"Which saurus?" "Oh, eunotasaurus."
Eunotasaurus? Well, you not a saurus either! : )
Conceptually, couldn't several beetle species be considered turtle like? With pre-retracted heads, hard shells on top and bottom, short thick legs, I think they might fit.
Cassidinae also known as tortoise beetles.
@@brianedwards7142 mf you just blew my mind
Those are also invertebrates though
@@bleepbloopskrrr I am aware. Please elaborate.
no they're beetles
I absolutely want to know more about turtles. They're so weird that they're amazing.
And yes, I want to see other examples of convergent evolution. The Foosa looking like cats immediately came to mind.
Search up the marsupial lion
And lots of spiky, warm-blooded animals. 😂Hedgehogs, porcupines, echidnas, tenrec. Plus lots of other spiky animals.
@@passingby3584 I went down that rabbit hole a while ago. It was fascinating. Thylacoleo. Very cool.
@@teresaellis7062 those are cool all on their own, very interesting group.
Fossa are close cousins to cats, so that might not be convergent evolution. Now, the quolls are definitely an example of convergent evolution - they're small carnivorous marsupials that have often been called "marsupial cats" or "native cats".
Americans are aware of the distinction between turtles and tortoises, though ive never heard of a terrapin. Americans do not pronounce the oi in tortoise, we say "tore-tiss" phonetically. The word turtle is sometimes used to refer to all shelled reptiles in contexts where a distinction between the two is not necessary.
Super interesting! I didn't actually know anything else evolved into a cheloniform body plan except the little Ankylosaur and the Armadillos!
"Every Time Things Have Evolved Into Noodles/Worms/Snakes" would be super interesting, but also probably take a year to make and be 3 hours long lol
First I couldn’t trust crabs, and now I can’t trust turtles? What’s next?
It's turtles all the way down, young man.
Move aside *Crabs* ! Turtles are the New hit show now!
Let's be honest, we all strive to be the ultimate lifeform; the turt
I have a hard time wrapping my head around genetic changes happening over millions of years. Like I’m expecting this to be like a day and night difference right away.
Imagine if you're swimming in a river and your leg is being hit over and over by a little tiny aquatic Ankylosaurus😂
It’s not quite the same, but convergent technologies that were independently discovered by people around the world have always interested me. Like the bow and arrow, people all over the place figured out that one.
Or like swords. Europe and Japan developed different styles of swords of course, with European swords being more narrow tipped for stabbing through the gaps on thick plate armor, whereas Japanese swords were made more for cutting through thick wooden or light sectioned armor.
Also because of the iron ore quality in Japan, they had to construct their swords a very certain way (by melting black sand in a furnace, and folding this several times over, after which they add a layer of carbon treated steel on top of it).
But despite all of this, both styles utilize similar cutting techniques, parrying and fighting styles. There are differences but there are also alot of similarities.
The bow probably isn't convergent but is likely a very ancient development.
@@hedgehog3180 ancient doesn’t mean it was developed by one group. Multiple different groups discovered fire and simple tools without contacting each other.
Convergent evolution is always so fascinating... and when discssed on a channel this entertaining and informative it makes for a great experience. Thanks for all the wonderful content
the convergence of sociality/eusociality in different groups would be cool, like how ants, bees, termites and naked mole rats have each evolved complex social societies
Ants, bees and termites are all descended from the same eusocial ancestor. Naked mole rats are the only other example of eusociality.
Thank you for this absolutely interesting, high quality episode! I enjoy all episodes, but this one sits defenetly in my favorite top 10 list! And YES please, I would love more episodes about convergent evolution!
Thank you I'm glad you enjoyed it so much! I'll definitely do more :)
Convergent Evolution....
Sharks: Look at how effective we are at swimming and catching fish!
Future Dolphins: We're about to do what's called a pro gamer move.
If the crab theory is carcinization, what's the turtle theory?
Testunization
The Turtling.
@@VVabsa i second this one
@@VVabsathis is gold
That sounds painful. =P@@HypochondriacStudios
Who else heard “Helveticasaurus” and immediately wondered what Times New Saurus looked like?
Since would be Latin probably would tempusneosaurus
I can't believe I understood this joke. Oh my God.
Comicsansaurus. Fuck I'm going to go get my degree now just to do this
@@megalofirst1 PLEASE 😂😂 Papyrusaurus Rex has also been on my mind since i wrote this
Here in the states...we also call them turtles if they spend the majority of their life in water, teripensi if it's 50/50ish and tortoises (not pronounced like a phsycopath) for purely land variants. The UKs assumption of understanding with u.s. language barriers makes me chuckle. We don't call everything turtles. Unless you're 5.
Just FYI, we do, in fact, distinguish between turtles and tortoises here in America. That said, we just consider terrapins to be a type of turtle.
Hey Ben! I’d love for you to make this a series. I came up with some content ideas I would love to see you cover:
1. Mimicry/convergent evolution in insects (example: the fossilized Oregramma illecebrosa vs modern owl butterfly
2. Convergent evolution in mammalian apex predators (Canidae, Thylacinidae, Feliformia/Hyaenidae)
3. Thylacosmilidae vs Felidae/Sabert-toothed cats
4. Evolution of carnivorism in plants, convergent evolution amongst pitcher plants (Nepenthaceae, Sarraceniaceae and Cephalotaceae)
5. Evolution of olfactory glomeruli (such as in neopteran insects and some molluscs but not all outgroups to these groups)
6. Electrogenisis in fish
7. Echolocation in bats and toothed whales
8. The multiple times syncytin genes have developed from endogenous retroviral elements on multiple occasions and independently in diverse mammalian species.
9. Old world and new world vultures
10. Evolution of venom in snakes, arthropods, platypus, etc.
11. Toxicity in animals derived from toxins in food source (such as poisonous feathers in birds such as the pitohui, ifrita bird, hoopoe, spur-winged goose, red warbler, etc).
12. Lobsters and scorpions
13. Symbiotic relationships between flowers/plants and insects/birds/other species.
Sorry if there are any spelling mistakes, I typed this on the down-low as I’m supposed to be paying attention to a work meeting right now. 😅 Cheers, mate! Love your channel.
As a Biological Sciences student working on a herpetology lab, I can sey that your channel is a true gem. Thanks for all the effort, informations and sources availables
The convergent phenomenon makes sense. Once there is a niche sorted out where heavier bones are an advantage, which could be ballast or could be protection from below giving value to a plastrum, they will be slower and the logic of survival pushes them towards a full-on armor tank. If you were designing combat vehicles, fast movers can have a thousand different shapes depending on expected terrain so long as you keep it light, but equipment which starts out heavy has one sensible way to go: shield it until it becomes its own garage.
I am very supportive of more material on turtles. To meet sea turtles, especially to see them hatch, is to find them deeply compelling. I even helped to get two females back into the water safely. One was dragging herself back into the water over horribly sharp coral, and headed straight for a rock coral wall!
The things we animals will do to propagate our species.
This channel is pure gold. Congratulations for the incredible research and keep up the amazing work. Thank you for inspiring me to keep on studying. You have earned a subscriber!
Very clever idea for a video. And in a way, beetles are in the mix if you stand back far enough and think about it.
1:45 we Americans use the 3 terms: Turtle, Tortoise, and Terrapin.
Terrapin is kind of rarely used, though. Only when being technical, as terrapins are often called turtles for ease (but never tortoises).
Turtle it's use for terrain turtle? And tortoise for water turtle?
@@erilove593 the opposite
@@tosehoed123😂😂😂
Crabs : finally a worthy opponent, our battle shall be legendary!
I am totally new to your channel but I really liked this video. Well-researched, not obscuring the details ir oversimplifying the complexities.
All presented in a really captivating way. I'd definitely enjoy more videos of this sort in the future.
As it is, this was an easy sub and a thumbs up from me. Great video!
Also also, extra points for not omitting armadillos/glyptodonts. ❤👍
It's the only way we as multi celled organisms can avoid rent as we evolve. We got built in mobile homes.
I often forget that all species (including us) aren’t done evolving, wondering what future animals will look like
If I had to choose an ancient marine reptile to be brought back magically It would've been Archelon, watching Leatherbacks blows my mind on how much bigger an Archelon was. Great video as always.
I would go for ichthyosaurus
@@kR-qj7rw Nice choice 🤘, I have a favorite Icthyosaur called Thalattoarchon.
Great video! I'd definitely love to see more on turtle evolution. One evolutionary question I've had is why are there no Testunididaes in Australia (there are some in Sulawasi that are across the Wallace Line)
I presume that turtles evolved in an area far away from Australia at a time when that continent had separated far away from the rest of the former Pangea. At this point there's no way for terrestrial turtles to migrate to Australia. But, are there at least sea turtles nesting on Australian shores today?
@@JohnDrummondPhoto
Plenty of sea turtles in Australia.
Testinididaes are the terrestrial tortoises. I used the order name because freshwater turtles are typically called tortoises in Australia. My question is pertaining to the terrestrial Chelonians.
As an American I would like to say that turtles, tortoises and terrapins are all words used in the states. Hell, my state college's mascot is a terrapin
Damn, evolution is just one big "I like turtles" meme.
The fact that convergent evolution is described as "copying" is concerning to say the least.
idk why i was expecting to learn something like other species going through turtle evolution..
like a comodo dragon going through a phase of developing. a turtle-like shell
Absolutely you should do a post triassic turt evolution video!
I like turtles
More recent examples of convergent evolution include, I believe, the marsupial "lions" and "wolves" that used to inhabit Australia.
I'm so grateful you spoke about the Glyptodonts. I'd heard a bit about them, and they captivated my imagination... But I'd never been able to properly visualize them.
Just FYI, we call them turtles, terrafins and tortoises too. 😂
Or we simplify it by calling them box turtles, tortoises, sea turtles and river turtles to distinguish between the land based and aquatic. It makes it easier to know if they need water using this method. That's why you hear it said that way more often. It's for educational purposes for people who don't really care about turtles.
Am I not turtley enough for the turtle club? Turtle, turtle, turtle!
It was sort of touched on with the phytosaur image near the beginning, but animals evolving the crocodile body plan/lifestyle would make for a cool video. I think the croc body plan evolved three or four times before actual crocodilians, including in what I think was the largest ever amphibian, Prionosuchus. Also, "saber teeth" have evolved so many times it's actually weird that there isn't some sort of saber toothed carnivore running around somewhere on Earth right now.
Seconded!
There are plenty of animals with "saber" teeth. Musk deer, elephants, walruses, baboons, etc....
@@fantasystaplesuwu1554 I think they meant predatory saber-tetth, but I was referring to the crocobods.
@@CG-xb1kh
Jaguars are evolving into saber tooths.
Warthogs?????
Reject Crab! Embrace turtle!
If it quacks like a turtle, its a turtle. The rest is just hoots and hollers.
Having seen and handled a local small turtle here where I live for a very short time (I released it, did not want to cause it stress) I was fascinated by their structure. They are amazingly tough and strong even the small ones
Especially the small ones 😉 🐢
Turtles! I am excited for the not quite but totally almost turtles.
Please do a convergence series! This is awesome!!!
yes, but how often have turtles evolved into ninjas?
I'd love to see more videos on convergence. I'd really like to see one on plants if that's something you'd be interested in. Ideas include trees/fruiting and animal pollination/ insectivory. I'd also love to see convergence in bivalves and molluscs.
America does use tortoise to refer to members of the testudines order that live primarily on land, with turtles referring to the ones that live in water, salty or fresh. Though it is interesting to learn that you Brits have a specific word for freshwater turtles
Waiting for him to say I like turtles...
lol 😂
I think you also have to look at plesiomorphic characteristics that predispose certain lineages to evolve a certain way. They’re not just evolving convergently in response to environmental pressures, they’re being funneled by their shared ancestral features. Like the animal you showed in your thumbnail is actually a stem-turtle that independently evolved derived turtle characters like a shell and oar-like flippers, probably because they had a bauplan that predisposed oar-like swimming styles and this then allows evolution of a shell since the thorax doesn’t need to undulate. Likewise other members of this stem turtle group like the pliosaurs shared this oared swimming style. And you can also mention how archosaurs repeatedly evolved bipedal predatory forms- unlike synapsids- and this is probably down to how the archosaur/reptile bauplan involved the tail in musculature used for the hind limbs, which synapsids didn’t so they remained mostly quadrupedal and often lost their tails. So “convergence” is only half the story.
@Nelumbo_lutea Many quadrupedal synapsids lost their tails. This essentially didn't happen with reptiles, except maybe flying birds, and even they kept a functional pygostyle. That's the point.
The turtles with tails resembled horseshoe crabs for me, and then it reminded me of the crab body plan.
I became a turtle by marrying my husband, Naomi Turtle
1:53 y’all break up turtles into three sub categories insane
nah they r right actually we as americans just refer to shit that aint a turtle as a turtle
@@lennrdtortoises are a type of turtle. Terrapins are the same thing as turtles.
This is my first video of yours and I instantly subscribed!! Wonderful content and I love your stuffed turtle 😁
Crabs have a mortal enemy now
Sharky boys and monke boys 👀🥱
I...don't know where you heard that Americans refer to all testudines as "turtles" -- I've spent much of my life in the US and I've never met an American who didn't understand the differences. It's one of the earliest animal environmental distinctions children learn, especially for those living in swampy or desert regions.
Nature: Turtle Shape Good, let's evolve more
Humans: "Hey I just invented this new thing to help drink drinks more easily"
This is a certified 🐢 classic
0:24 You may call it what you like. It is a stark lack of imagination from these living organisms.
Great channel you got here, by the way. Interesting, always fresh and intelligent.
Cheers.
so in the end all of us are 1 evolution away from being a turtle
It probably could interesting to see just how many lineages evolved the feline body plan.
I mean I guess we could say the gorgonipsids did it first
I know you usually cover animals on this channel, but I recently noticed that ferns, cycads and palms all have very similar morphologies, while being completely unrelated. I am really curious for an explanation as to why this 'body plan' works and if there are more examples. If the subject is too far from your expertise I would also gladly watch more turtle videos
There's also the way that "trees" have evolved separately many, many times.
Because its a plant. Similar body plan to do what plants do. And that is be immobile as a plant
@@reeyees50 dude, have you ever looked at grass and an oak? Or seqoia and moss? Just because the dont move they dont look the same. This is the same as saying that all vertebrates are similar because they have 4 limbs
I really enjoy the stupidly distant examples of convergence. Like octopus and human eyes being remarkably similar.
Evolution and I: I like turtles.
1:13 tortoise evolution hare hole
Everything becomes crabs
Turtles and crabs are peak design.
Thus by the end of time we’ll all just be one species and back into unity. A super evolved efficient one species