The Form of the Divine Service - an instructional video for seminarians and pastors
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- Опубликовано: 14 дек 2024
- This is a video recording, with commentary, of a Divine Service held in May of 2016 at St. Paul’s in Hamel, Illinois, during a Gottesdienst conference.
I wish all confessional Lutheran/LCMS churches were as reverent. Tradition is good, even if not necessary for salvation.
I'm new to Lutheranism after 20+ years in a Baptist church. The liturgy I take part in is much, much simpler but still very impactful. This video was amazingly helpful.
Are you crazy. Baptist don't even have a mass. Pictures of some black guy up there talking and singing and acting like a fool
This is very instructional , not only for seminarians and pastors , but all Lutherans .
Amen ,Glory to the risen Christ our Lord
Believe me: i find more reverence in the Lutheran Lithurgy of the Mass than the Catholic new one
This is a very sad but true comment.
I wish my Catholic Church were as reverent as you.
This was excellent amd informative. Thanks for sharing!
Great video! I’ll be using this for the Bible class I teach at school
Is this an LCMS divine service?
I attend an LCMS service every week. I can tell you that it bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to what is depicted here.
I wish it did. This was amazing- much more like a catholic mass than what I currently attend.
It is. Yeah, as Luther says, as Christians we are at liberty to worship in any number of ways, but out of love we are not free to use that liberty because these traditions help maintain our unity with other churches today and in the past.
Just a friendly reminder that "Der Deutsche Gottesdienst" is older than Roman Catholic Latin Mass.😊
The Divine Service is the traditional Latin mass in German, and subsequently, English.
Latin mass Organically it was growing, not in a moment. At the Council of Trent its final form was determined, not it was created
The Traditional Latin Mass was from the time of the Apostles. Trent merely restored it removing some very lengthy prayers. Gregory the Great lectionary identical to Tent except for the kiss of peace which he added in gratitude to God for the end of a plague. And that caused an uproar!. The Mass presented here may be a pre-Trent one. Novus Ordo is the skeleton of the Mass. Sad.
the tlm was created is 590 by Pope Gregory the Great and codified by Pius V in 1460’s
@@packersstink8519 TLM wasn't created.
Great resource!
Couple of questions:
- why only celebrant prays Pater Noster, is that not the common prayer of all?
- Why is the Verba prayed towards altar, when Christ said these words to his disciples? Of course, he said these words to consecrate the elements - but also to declare the sacramental gifts, right? If one does not know better, the ad orientum here could convey the wrong message, that these are our sacrifices to God.
I understand that this is how lutherans historically celebrate the Divine Service, I also know that all rubrics do not have to be same everywhere (CA VII), but these popped to my head, watching this excellent video!
People should read Quo Primum. It clearly states that the TLM is a restoration of the Mass back to the time of the Apostles. It is the Mass simplified down to all of its essential parts. It defends the complete Faith/Doctrine. So you can imagine what we have left in the NO, which has removed well over half of these essentials of The Faith! Compare the two, please.
As an ordained Confessional Lutheran minister myself (in the Independent Lutheran Diocese), I give great accolades to how you done the video (much along the same lines the Roman Catholic FSSP and EWTN did for the Latin Mass).
The only things I see wrong is that the "Subdeacon of the Mass" (sorry about the "Romish" terminology) does not wear the stole; he just wears the tunicle (although if an ordained minister or consecrated deacon, he wears the maniple). Even if the "Deacon of the Mass" is an ordained minister, he should wear the "diaconal" form of the stole and not the pastoral stole.
Also, when giving the Sermon, the maniple should be removed, although I have seen customs in some of the Anglo-Catholic parishes in the Philadelphia area in which the maniple is retained for the Sermon.
Interestingly, in the Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter (for former Anglicans in North America), there was at one point an episcopal directive to not make the sign of the cross before/after the sermon, nor take off the maniple, because the sermon is an organic part of the liturgy and the false impression should not be given that it is a "pause" in the celebration (as is the common perception of it in the preconciliar Roman rite).
한국 개신교도 이런 경건한 예배로 다시 돌아왔으면 합니다. 예배 절차는 다르지만 20년전까지만 해도 한국 장로교회 대부분이 오르간으로만 경건하게 예배를 드렸는데 말이죠
Question from a Latin Catholic unfamiliar with Lutheran litugical practices... I noticed that most seemed to have made the sign of the holy cross from right to left, rather than the (now-)customary western left-right. Is this standard Lutheran practice or peculiar to this celebration? Is there a standard finger configuration as well?
We do it either way. Usually we use the index finger, thumb and middle finger.
I personally do it left to right.
It’s been my experience and was taught that when making the sign of the cross we are to always finish over our heart. So, when the sign of the cross is made by the celebrant to the people the celebrant ends on the side of the people’s heart. So it’s opposite than when making it to yourself.
@@arcticfrost7541 ln my Oriental church tradition, Syriac Orthodox Church, we do the sign with three fingers: index, thumb and middle (trinity) and cross from left to right as a reverance to Jesus sitting to the right of the Father.
It’s most performed the way that you brought to our attention
Here in Philippines, we do it differently, we join our thumb and index finger to form a cross while doing the sign of the cross and kisses it at the end
Having trouble finding this in Luther, Vol. 53...
Have you read it? Cuz what he describes is basically this. The only difference is that he assumes most people at the time know all of the finer details and that we need not fuss over them as the word and preaching are far more important than these and everyone in this vid would agree.
감사합니다. 한국 루터교회에서
Was that Pr. Will Weedon taking communion?!
Did I miss out on the agnus dei?
I recently made a video on Lutheranism on my channel and featured this Divine Service.
when he gives the sign of the cross at the absolution it was way too quick and not reverent enough.
What does it matter to you
@@jackschwarz6708 Because it’s important, its a symbol of the absolution that Christ gives us, it should not be rushed
Yeah, what tristankramer4636 said. It ain't supposed to be McChurch. Wanna see something quick and irreverent...go to McDonald's hey hey 😂🤣
This is divine service setting three
Subdeacon with stole worn priest style and deacon with no stole. ?
The only problem I have with the video is the Creed. I’m not Lutheran, but if you believe you are Evangelical Catholics, USE THE PROPER TERMINOLOGY.
The translation of Catholic as Christian is a german tradition that preceded the reformation
@@kidflersh7807Catholic translates as universal, not Christian
@@noobforpresident2024 Again, precedes the Reformation. That is, before the Reformation. That is German Catholic tradition before the Reformation.
Interesting. Subdeacon wearing a stole - and around his neck like a priest.
The subdeacon in the service refers to his office (position of service) within the Divine Service. He may be ordained pastor and not necessarily a deacon outside the service. If pastor, then stole. If deacon, the no stole.
@@shepherdofthecross8767 I understand the office or function of deacon versus subdeacon versus celebrant in the Mass. But when one serves in the specific function, one wears the stole in the manner reflective of the office or function being served in the liturgy. Celebrant would wear as a priest, deacon would wear stole as a deacon's stole is worn (i.e. not like a priest/celebrant), and a subdeacon without stole. Those not ordained would have no stole.
But they can't say the church is catholic. One of he 4 historical marks of the church. A rewording of the creed of an Ecumenical council.
It is a footnote in the hymnal. It is an editorial decision for less confusion among the laity. I can assure you that we Lutherans confess that we are apart of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
@@shepherdofthecross8767 How about the novel concept of educating the laity. The words of the Creed were set by 2 Ecumenical Councils. So a single communion gets to "editorialize" that to avoid the onus of educating laity?
I did notice that. A very strange alteration!
The use of the word "Christian" instead of "Catholic" was already in use in Germany prior to the Reformation. So, it is not really a Lutheran rewording. It has more to do with the similarity of "Katholisch" and "Christliche". People at the time would have understood both words to clearly be referring to the one and the same Church. There was no confusion. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod descends primarily from Germany, so they just stuck with what was a common feature of German worship. Granted, though, a popular "We're not Roman Catholic" justification has crept in over the years. Hopefully, as that sentiment subsides, the use of the word "Catholic" will be more acceptable. By the way, there are many Lutherans, probably most, who do use the word "Catholic" in the creeds.
@@mj6493 Whether the rewording is of Lutheran origin or not, it is NOT at all a translation of what the Creed says. It is a significant mistranslation of Reformed origin, whether Lutheran or otherwise.
Yeah, sure, I can imagine Peter and Paul leading the worship services in this way. smh.
How did St. Peter and St. Paul lead services?
@@meditatio7128 they've watched this video, memorized every single darn thing of the thousand listed, then would imitate, turn left, turn right, fold hands like, like that... yuck.
@@meganotofthisworld Please answer my question sincerely. How did Peter and Paul worship? Since, according to you, it was nothing like this, you must know. Please tell me, what did they do?
@@meditatio7128 Why don't you tell me how did they worship? You know very well, that they most certainly did not worship this way. This ridiculous, legalistic set of forms and ceremonies...
@@meganotofthisworld You are still dodging but fine.
1)What is wrong with how they are worshipping?
2) We don't know exactly how they worshipped. We have no apostolic hymnal. Here's the best I've got:
"And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers."
Acts 2:42
Apostles' Teaching: Self-explanatory This is found in the Lutheran Liturgy via the scripture readings and the sermon (if your pastor is faithful). The liturgy in general is overflowing with God's Word.
Fellowship: Christians gathering together.
Breaking of the Bread: Holy Communion. The true Body and Blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
The Prayers: Note the definite article. This isn't prayer in general. These are specifc, written prayers, coming out of the liturgy of the synagogue, mostly psalms. Look at the Introit, Canticles, and Psalms in the Lutheran liturgy.
Sounds like liturgical worship to me.
Also note that Christian worship arose out of the OT worship, which had much order and a liturgy of its own, which influenced Chistians a ton. So although there's no way of knowing what the exact worship was like, its safe to say it was, like the early church, ordered, reverent, and centered on God's Word. The Apostles would appreciate what the good folks at Gottesdienst are doing.
I will also challenge your assertion that this is "legalistic". They are not saying this is the only way you can have a godly service. In fact, they say multiple times in the video that there's 1 guiding principle: reverence. The pious people at Gottesdienst made this to help preserve the rich liturgy that has tons of meaning and has helped grow and strengthen my faith. Christians have followed some form of reverent, liturgical worship from the Old Testament days, through the Apostles, into the Early Church (see St. Justin Martyr), the Reformation, and now. This was also made to help pastors conduct the service reverently, which it inarguably does.
Here'sa good passage on the importance of reverence:
"Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire."
Hebrews 12:28-29 ESV