Archetypes timestamps: 3:33 hero & villian 4:50 mentor 5:07 trickster 5:23 threshold guardian 6:33 herald 6:50 shapeshifter 7:22 allies 20:30 this advice is giving me so much peace 22:10 Homework! Regarding your favourite story, write down your answers to each question: - what are the archetypes of the cast? - how does each character deal with the main double-factor problem? - how does each character fit within the preset conventions of the main genre? - where does each character fall on the chaos and order spectrum?
When I've finished revising the current draft (aiming to complete revisions by next Friday), I shall put it through the 4 frameworks and see what happens. Each of the frameworks has value. Thanks for this video, Tim.
Excellent presentation. Thank you. The 4th framework was new to me, though I haven't done much with the 2nd either. I love your no-nonsense, no-fluff videos. They are much better than some of the books and courses I've already paid for. I think carefully working through my characters will really help me on my current WIP.
That is the most helpful video on writing I've ever come across. Most informative and helpful, bursting at the seams with stuff you can use straight away. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and expertise!
Wow, I feel like I completely GET the DPF now!! 🥳 Before watching this video I understood it but didn't really understand why it was so important. The light bulb moment was learning that every character in the story needs to be dealing with it (in different ways based on their "function" in the story) and it is tied with the overall theme. Seems super obvious now, but that's hindsight for you. As always, top video, Tim!
This is so great! I try to analyze the novels I read in my own genre I want to write but I don't have a direction or format to do so. Now I do! Thanks!
Tim, thank you for the education. Taking show don't tell to the next step, writing good scenes. To me, show don't tell = painting with words. Discription, was it cold, windy, or hot and sweatty. Air currents, what was the building structure made of, or what did the scene of nature provide. Emotion, a frown a smile a pouted lip or the whipe of sweat form the brow, Gee that was close! Body language says a lot. I've written loads of colorful, metaphorical poetry filled with symbolism. Even entered poetry contests and as a poet and have been published. When I was in my 20's by the World of poetry. I call it painting with words. Now, I need to chisel out scenes. Homework answer. George Lucas! Oh my goodness! It's all spelled out! Star Wars! Every character type is there! On spot! At 13 1977 George Lucas did it all flawless! Star Wars, to me is timeless! Never gets old! Question: What is the difference between exposition dialogue and the "Herald" character type. For example, take a Gypsy fortune teller. The Herald? character type? She explains in detail the curse of the werewolf, lycanthrope, to a young couple on vacation. Even a man pure of heart ... The young man has been bitten as of recent, by a wondering, rampant wolf. Wouldn't that be exposition dialogue? Tim congratulations on you new book, The Shit Head. Homeless now, due to my disability. However, when I get back on my feet your book is on top of my to get list. And, Thank You again for the much needed education. 😊 Raising his glass high, surveying the room, with a wink, a nod and a grin. He toasted in expectation. Better days are yet to come! Better days are yet to come!
no video, good for my spirit, like this channel, is ever suggested in my feed, even though subscribed. the race in charge are my villians and host is the hero
Love thinking about the theme for Char. Development :D I tend to write people without really thinking too much about backstory or how they fit together. Their backstory develops in my head and then I use what I want of it...but my writting stinks. I'm saving up money for the workshop.
I thought the Order and Chaos Spectrum was new to me. Good video. I want to learn more about scene writing and like the ideas you are putting out into the world. Keep it coming.
Another great video from story grid. I used story grid to fix my MS and it worked--King of the Forgotten Darkness is already available for pre-order :). Story Grid is THE best. Any time Tim comes out with a video I get out my notebook and take notes!
Different than what I expected when you unveiled order versus chaos. I think I remember hearing you talk about this before in a different video, but I was expecting more like the Dan Harmon Story Circle where the top half of the circle is order in the bottom half is chaos.
Interesting stuff! Like most of your commenters so far, I was most surprised by the order-chaos framework. The Campbell archetype framework is a bit of a sticking point for me. It seems like it kind of depends on a primary protagonist framework, while my current project is more of an ensemble piece with a Hero Classic as deuteragonist at best. Though to be fair, given that the double-factor problem is which stories to embrace and which to break out of, and one of the main characters' arc depends on her jumping from the Campbell archetype to something more like Gail Carriger's Heroine's Journey, I might get a better result figuring out what archetypes some of the characters aren't and where they most grate against them. Have to know the rules to break them right!
I'm working on my 2nd novel. Character development is where I'd like to improve next in my writing. I read Story Genius by Lisa Cron, and the first half of her book sounds like dynamite on paper. I'm curious, is that what you're referring to when you talk about the Theme framework? I think what was missing from my debut book was the "3rd rail" as Lisa calls it. I didn't understand that there is a difference between the story and the plot. I wrote a book where a lot of stuff happened to my character, and sure, it was exciting, but it wasn't impactful to the reader other than seeing a bunch of action. I created some strong emotional scenes, and my ARC readers said that it brought them to tears sometimes, but I feel like it still didn't invest my readers in the story.
Thank you for the video; I love these writing advice videos. I knew all theses but never thought to connect in this way. (I'm at chapter 6 of "The Shithead" and love it so far!
Order and chaos was new. So the runaway sister on jane Austen's book, was chaos, the sister who approved marriage as a custom, order, the protag was near middle of chaos - order. Thanks
Genre conventions seems to be my biggest gap (new concept) within the storygrid learning system... I'd like more info on that. It's a little bit sporadic, trying to find those clarified concisely. I can't find this info in one place, as in a chart with all the genres, and its different conventions, obligatory scenes, and tropes. I also found it interesting to think about the spectrum of order vs. chaos to define my characters. In my writing, it is easy for me to want to write a flawless character. This gives me a nuanced way to define a flaw in a character.
Unclear about the hero's journey archetypes and how they fit into this. Thinking of mysteries with an amateur sleuth or a police procedural where the hero/protagonist doesn't change and the theme is some variation of finding justice. Are all 8 archetypes always present in these types of stories? What if they don't have a mentor or is that archetype played out in the sidekick? I can see how a killer might act as a trickster and a shapeshifter combined if (s)he appears forthcoming/friendly at first but is also working to thwart the investigation.
I wish Coyne ran this channel. Most of what is shared here is just rehashed "Booktube" fluff. His book is DENSE with practical, useful writing education.
@@sambakerman9406 Already have, including a few of their little guides and editor trainings. Not sure what you're referring to, but tangents aren't the issue.
![FORTNITE CLASSICS IS BACK! Fortnite Item Shop [November 15th, 2024] (Fortnite Chapter 5)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RbQURbeFwqs/mqdefault.jpg)
Archetypes timestamps:
3:33 hero & villian
4:50 mentor
5:07 trickster
5:23 threshold guardian
6:33 herald
6:50 shapeshifter
7:22 allies
20:30 this advice is giving me so much peace
22:10 Homework!
Regarding your favourite story, write down your answers to each question:
- what are the archetypes of the cast?
- how does each character deal with the main double-factor problem?
- how does each character fit within the preset conventions of the main genre?
- where does each character fall on the chaos and order spectrum?
Wow! It’s ordered like mathematics! Reducing stress.
Thank you, Tim. This is the best advice on character development I received so. far.
I’ve heard all these before from you but the combination of them and making sure they work together is new and an amazing concept
The Orderly versus Chaos was new to me. I can’t wait to review my characters and put them on the spectrum. thanks
When I've finished revising the current draft (aiming to complete revisions by next Friday), I shall put it through the 4 frameworks and see what happens. Each of the frameworks has value. Thanks for this video, Tim.
Excellent presentation. Thank you. The 4th framework was new to me, though I haven't done much with the 2nd either. I love your no-nonsense, no-fluff videos. They are much better than some of the books and courses I've already paid for. I think carefully working through my characters will really help me on my current WIP.
That is the most helpful video on writing I've ever come across. Most informative and helpful, bursting at the seams with stuff you can use straight away. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and expertise!
Wow, I feel like I completely GET the DPF now!! 🥳
Before watching this video I understood it but didn't really understand why it was so important. The light bulb moment was learning that every character in the story needs to be dealing with it (in different ways based on their "function" in the story) and it is tied with the overall theme. Seems super obvious now, but that's hindsight for you.
As always, top video, Tim!
Great content. Thanks Tim!
Tim, this is the best video/lesson I've seen you provide us! Excellent! (...and I'm reading your new book, so far😀!)
Thank you for your great teachings. I am a new fan.
Great talk Tim! I'm going to fish out my Story Grid book. Thanks!
This is so great! I try to analyze the novels I read in my own genre I want to write but I don't have a direction or format to do so. Now I do! Thanks!
I've been a member of the SG Guild for a few years, and how to use the Order :: Chaos spectrum hit home for the first time. Thanks.
Tim, thank you for the education. Taking show don't tell to the next step, writing good scenes. To me, show don't tell = painting with words. Discription, was it cold, windy, or hot and sweatty. Air currents, what was the building structure made of, or what did the scene of nature provide. Emotion, a frown a smile a pouted lip or the whipe of sweat form the brow, Gee that was close! Body language says a lot. I've written loads of colorful, metaphorical poetry filled with symbolism. Even entered poetry contests and as a poet and have been published. When I was in my 20's by the World of poetry. I call it painting with words. Now, I need to chisel out scenes. Homework answer. George Lucas! Oh my goodness! It's all spelled out! Star Wars! Every character type is there! On spot! At 13 1977 George Lucas did it all flawless! Star Wars, to me is timeless! Never gets old! Question: What is the difference between exposition dialogue and the "Herald" character type. For example, take a Gypsy fortune teller. The Herald? character type? She explains in detail the curse of the werewolf, lycanthrope, to a young couple on vacation. Even a man pure of heart ... The young man has been bitten as of recent, by a wondering, rampant wolf. Wouldn't that be exposition dialogue? Tim congratulations on you new book, The Shit Head. Homeless now, due to my disability. However, when I get back on my feet your book is on top of my to get list. And, Thank You again for the much needed education. 😊 Raising his glass high, surveying the room, with a wink, a nod and a grin. He toasted in expectation. Better days are yet to come! Better days are yet to come!
no video, good for my spirit, like this channel, is ever suggested in my feed, even though subscribed. the race in charge are my villians and host is the hero
also im subsribed to kassandra yoga. her vids never suggested. i looked at one nba video a few months back and im swimming in it
Love thinking about the theme for Char. Development :D I tend to write people without really thinking too much about backstory or how they fit together. Their backstory develops in my head and then I use what I want of it...but my writting stinks. I'm saving up money for the workshop.
Thanks Tim. Book can’t get here soon enough…watching how you’re marketing it along the way and it’s working
I thought the Order and Chaos Spectrum was new to me. Good video. I want to learn more about scene writing and like the ideas you are putting out into the world. Keep it coming.
Thank you for another great video 😊 A really good breakdown. To combine the methods was the most eye-opening thing for me :)
Another great video from story grid. I used story grid to fix my MS and it worked--King of the Forgotten Darkness is already available for pre-order :). Story Grid is THE best. Any time Tim comes out with a video I get out my notebook and take notes!
Your explanation of order vs chaos and how the characters' behave under stress relative to this scale was a big ah-ha! For me. Thanks!!
So clear ! haha moment... A real masterclass. Thank you
Different than what I expected when you unveiled order versus chaos. I think I remember hearing you talk about this before in a different video, but I was expecting more like the Dan Harmon Story Circle where the top half of the circle is order in the bottom half is chaos.
Having all characters relate to the theme was a big click moment for me.
🤯 changed everything
Interesting stuff!
Like most of your commenters so far, I was most surprised by the order-chaos framework.
The Campbell archetype framework is a bit of a sticking point for me. It seems like it kind of depends on a primary protagonist framework, while my current project is more of an ensemble piece with a Hero Classic as deuteragonist at best. Though to be fair, given that the double-factor problem is which stories to embrace and which to break out of, and one of the main characters' arc depends on her jumping from the Campbell archetype to something more like Gail Carriger's Heroine's Journey, I might get a better result figuring out what archetypes some of the characters aren't and where they most grate against them. Have to know the rules to break them right!
I'm working on my 2nd novel. Character development is where I'd like to improve next in my writing. I read Story Genius by Lisa Cron, and the first half of her book sounds like dynamite on paper. I'm curious, is that what you're referring to when you talk about the Theme framework? I think what was missing from my debut book was the "3rd rail" as Lisa calls it. I didn't understand that there is a difference between the story and the plot. I wrote a book where a lot of stuff happened to my character, and sure, it was exciting, but it wasn't impactful to the reader other than seeing a bunch of action. I created some strong emotional scenes, and my ARC readers said that it brought them to tears sometimes, but I feel like it still didn't invest my readers in the story.
Thank you for the video; I love these writing advice videos. I knew all theses but never thought to connect in this way. (I'm at chapter 6 of "The Shithead" and love it so far!
Order and chaos was new. So the runaway sister on jane Austen's book, was chaos, the sister who approved marriage as a custom, order, the protag was near middle of chaos - order. Thanks
Great metaphor, Tim, in re Ikea furniture :)
Genre conventions seems to be my biggest gap (new concept) within the storygrid learning system... I'd like more info on that. It's a little bit sporadic, trying to find those clarified concisely. I can't find this info in one place, as in a chart with all the genres, and its different conventions, obligatory scenes, and tropes. I also found it interesting to think about the spectrum of order vs. chaos to define my characters. In my writing, it is easy for me to want to write a flawless character. This gives me a nuanced way to define a flaw in a character.
Do u talk about screenwriting? I want a tutorial on how to write a script or a screenplay.
Unclear about the hero's journey archetypes and how they fit into this. Thinking of mysteries with an amateur sleuth or a police procedural where the hero/protagonist doesn't change and the theme is some variation of finding justice. Are all 8 archetypes always present in these types of stories? What if they don't have a mentor or is that archetype played out in the sidekick? I can see how a killer might act as a trickster and a shapeshifter combined if (s)he appears forthcoming/friendly at first but is also working to thwart the investigation.
I wish Coyne ran this channel. Most of what is shared here is just rehashed "Booktube" fluff. His book is DENSE with practical, useful writing education.
Thanks! - Tim
Sit down 🪑
@@Rocket-rs1eb ...already was.
Then read the book! Listen to the podcast and put up with Shawn's tangents lol
@@sambakerman9406 Already have, including a few of their little guides and editor trainings. Not sure what you're referring to, but tangents aren't the issue.