Watch Oiling (Experiment) - No oil, Correct, too much.
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- Опубликовано: 27 апр 2020
- Hi Guys, This episode is all about watch oiling. Its an experiment to see how a watch will run with no oil, with the "right" amount of oil ( remember I am not a pro) and then the final test is with that I would determine to be too much oil.
I discuss the oils I use and compare each test on a Timergraph machine and discuss the results .
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My Retro Watches have you recived my email i cant answer your reply on my old ipad so i had to go around the problem this way
I already kinda knew what happenes when you don't oil and over oil a watch... But nevertheless it was was very interesting to watch someone elses take on this topic especially because oiling is so difficult to get right when you're new to the hobby!
I’m a newbie, and learning, such videos are treasures for people like me ! Thank you to spending time and share with us! Great job
Thanks for watching!
I used to always get low amplitude rate after I serviced my watches, after watching your video I'm finally getting 200°+ amplitude.
Didn't realize I was over oiling my watch
That is awesome! glad this helped. Its amazing the effect of oil, especially on shock jewels.
This was extremely useful, thank you! If I may venture a guess, when you over-oiled - the oil probably went on to the hairspring and sort of glued its coils together a bit. This would make the hairspring effectively shorter - the effect is not dissimilar to the one you get when the hairspring is magnetized. And this would result in the significant gaining of the mechanism.
I've been looking for this kind of demonstration, I guess you are the first posting this oilings behaviour. Thanks.
Thank You for taking time to do this, I myself been wondering about this for a long while now and this video overwhelmingly satisficed my curiosity.
Glad you enjoyed it. was a difficult one to film but seems to be worth it.
Great video! Very interesting to se what effect the amount of oil has on the amplitude and the speed of the movement. Thank you so mutch for doing this Experiment. Looking foreward to more videoes.
I’ve always been curious about the effects of oiling but too lazy to experiment for myself. Thanks for the video!
For some reason I came to wonder how watches were oiled, and thanks to you I got to see it in details!! Very satisfying and relaxing to watch, never thought I'd see nearly three quarters of an hour go this fast :D
I'm new to wrist watch/pocket watch repair and I love your videos because of how carefully you do your comparisons/analysis. Keep up the great work.
Thanks, will do!
Very informative, nice too see the proper amount of oil is essential to a proper running watch.
Thanks for the video.
This channel never disappoints. Fantastic topic to cover. I was actually wondering the other day what would happen if I skipped the oiling part on my current restoration. Thanks for covering this. All the best!
Much appreciated!
Great stuff Mike thank you for making this video!
I love this experiment. Great video. Thank you for sharing it !
Informative and good to see the oiling done on camera!
This is fantastic work! Thank you, thank you!
Thanks Mike. This was SUPER informative. A really good study
Watch Me Build It thank you
Just watched this , it has really helped me to know more about what to use . As I started servicing my own watches I only used a couple of oils 😯 now I know I will upgrade my oils and re service them again. Thanks , really enjoyed this one. 👏👏👊🏻
Awsome experience you gote there! Thank you for the entertaining!
one of the better videos. new subscriber and I'm going to watch that again and try the experiment myself. dig the music too! thanks buddy.
Awesome video, thank you for taking the time to make it
Always a pleasure to watch your progress in this hobby, have a nice day
Thank you Sir. Progress is very slow but steady.
GREAT topic!! Thanks. I DID learn something! I learned that i need to redo some of my watches!
I am learning all the time (or trying to), so I really appreciate this, as I have over-oiled before - this is very good, thank you. I have a binocular microscope like yours, and I will apply what you have shown. It all looks really easy on the video, but it is not as easy as it looks in reality.
Very practical video, thanks 👍
Great experiment Mike!
Awesome video! Thanks for taking the time to do this experiment.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Very interesting demonstration; thanks!
Great video, Mike. A fascinating experiment and the results strongly indicate the importance of careful oiling. I use Moebius 8200 instead of D5 and 8300 grease - I’d imagine that the results would be broadly similar. All the best.
Thanks very much I really enjoyed the video and thanks for all the effort as I said before I am only new to this hobby but I am taken it all in. I need more equipment before I start servicing any watches, I'll get there I do have a microscope the same as yours its a great addition and amazing what a difference it shows. Thanks again.
Very nice tests. Thanks a lot for It.
Thank you so much!... this is extremely useful for me!
Great video. Thanks for showing. It helps me a lot as a starting matchmaker hobbyist.
Glad to help
Very informative. Thanks. The 9010 is my default oil for almost everything except mainsprings and mainspring arbors. Great stuff.
Thanks. 9010 is the staple oil although D5 is important too.
Great work Mike Great.
Interesting and very comprehensive. I thought that paying £35 a gallon for my car was expensive until I bought some 9010 at a discount and worked out its something like £28000 per gallon.
Brilliant video, thanks.
Really interesting. A little goes a long way.
Amazing, thankyou for this!
Enjoyed the video! Still have a lot to learn! I would probably “over oil” and have residue throughout the movement !
Really interesting video, thanks for sharing
exelente trabajo, muy educativo , le agradesco mucho., un saludo desde Chile.
Thanks for doing this video, I always wonder what the outcome would be if you did not oil or had too much, now we all know. That was fun to see it being done.
Great video Mike, cheers
Thanks mate
Great video!
Very good Video! Thanks
Great to 'see' just what happens in any scenario. I recently picked up a book 'A practical guide to modern watch oiling' that I found to be educational and very helpful. Sorry for the AD but as we hobbyist know, getting good info can be tricky. Hope it helps some of you.
Excellent, thank you very much.....!
GREAT VIDEO! 💚💚💚
Thank you for the great demonstration! That microscope seems like a game changer, might have to pick one of those up :)
Great video
Your the Boss. Thank you so much
Thank you!
This was very interesting! Thank you for taking the time and effort to do this tedious experiment. It's like Goldilocks... "This watch has toooo much lube. This watch doesn't have annnyyyy lube!! This watch is jussst right!" It's interesting to see how similar having no lube and having too much was, at first.
As a hobbyist, I can't tell you how much I appreciate these videos. It's been wonderful to have visual references coupled with a running narrative. Outstanding work, sir.
Molto, molto interessante. Grazie!
Really useful. Always learning. Please, more test videos, they are very interesting. One idea for the next: you can show the difference between the accepted practice of not oiling the pallet fork pivots and lubricating them, and how are the results in the timegrafer. I´m not an expert but oiling the pivots it is supposed to affect very much the amplitude and will slow down the running, doesn´t it? In the other hand it is accepted to always lubricate the pallet jewels, right? In that case I guess the benefit is to reduce wear and increase the movement life time but it will not affect the running of the movement. You can make the test oiling the jewels and leaving them dry to illustrate if there is a difference in the timegrapher . Both test would be very interesting
Brilliant video Mike!👍😀 Just what us newbies needed.
Thanks for the great work and keep it up.
I have an idea for another video for you, where should I contact you?
Jon Cooke I have too many ideas for videos believe me . Michael@myretrowatches.com
Excellent
Thank you!!!!
A drop in amplitude isn't a good thing and will affect accuracy as you go about your day. Cool videos thank you. You're helping me learn on old Seiko movements 😀
Thanks
I am not very experienced with watches or clocks but have worked with locks for many years. At this point I dont know if I heard or read this or if it came about from my own experience. That is that with mechanical devices the goal is to make the machine work smoothly first and then add the lubrication. Of course there will be exceptions, but the point is to not rely on the lubrication to make a poorly running machine work well with lubrication. Then the purpose of the lubrication is to control the wear over time.
To add to my post, over oiling in watches can cause migration of the oil away from the intended target.
A watch is made with as little friction as possible so yes the oil is there to aid with wear control but also to make it run optimally. I can see massive jumps in amplitude oiling the balance jewels.
Great video! I imagine the issues with over oiling would not show up until the oil wicks away from the friction surfaces.
Paul Padilla yes the oil can run down axle etc and get on to parts like the hair spring. Equally oil will thicken over years so will show its effects sooner. Plus attract dirt
Thank you for the big effort you put here. I'm still having trouble oiling the fork stones under the microscope using a black oiler (not the ergonomic, does it have a different point). I always have to take off a bit of oil using rodico but it still is too much. However I'm getting much better results than before, so not a big deal.
Agustin Aguilar pull through oiler out of the cup fast you get more oil. Slowly less. At 90 degrees on the end and at an angle on the side. As you can see I mess it up many times too . So small the pallet jewels
A very interesting video my friend... and one I've not seen before... so a question, what's the deal about these oil filled watches now? I know there's always the possibility that they will leak, and I'm interested what they do if left on a window seal in full sunshine for ten or so minutes???
Big thumbs my friend :))
Just in time, just received my oiling kit and Im going to oil a watch tomorrow.
h3kufc good luck
شكرآ لك على هذه المعلومات القيمة 👍
Now you have my attention!!!!!🧐🧐👍
There is a big risk that the excess oil migrates to places like the hairspring or the heavier oils get on the palette fork or the escape wheel, and this can drastically affect the rate.
I also suspect that once the various surfaces are oiled, and assuming they are oiled with the correct oil, it should run OK, assuming you are lucky enough to not have it migrate, but the excess will be a far greater dirt magnet, so it will almost certainly require servicing sooner, so perhaps it is not surprising that there wasn't that dramatic a difference between good oiling and chip shop fryer levels of oiling.
I try to imagine the surface area of the part that needs oiling, and judge the amount of oil based on that, so obviously a large area needs more oil, and a small pivot needs less. I still tend to dramatically over do it on occasions, but I think I'm slowly getting the hang of it.
@JPS JPS .. thus violating the fundamental rules of conservation of mass perhaps, unless of course the oil suddenly and spontaneously turns in to energy, in which case you have far more pressing things to worry about than the lubrication of your wrist watch.
The oil in a watch mechanism isn't going anywhere in a hurry.
It wont evaporate, if that is what you are expecting, unless the watch heats up dramatically, in which case, perhaps my first observation applies.
It wont be absorbed by the metal, as we are not using oilite bronze bearings here, this is all steel or brass, which are completely impervious to oils. The only place the excess can go is onto other surfaces, where it will either sit, nicely attracting dirt, or migrate further, perhaps to the hair spring.
I like using my black Bergeon oiler for most things, it doesn't flood like the yellow or red does and my yellow one is now doing lume duty. I do have one of them oil pens but find it too copious so just squirt a dab onto a bit of clean plastic and using Del boys adage "a little dab will do yer" as can always add more if need be but taking it off can be tedious lol Put a new vid up last night on my channel, I got this £15 joblot and my it was the gift that kept giving with the star of the show a two tone Accurist GM10 beauty and just so much good stuff and most importantly extra bracelets as I keep running out hehe
the over-oiling lol
it made me physically uncomfortable lol
the part where you press the jewel and the oil squishes around : )
Good evening, looking at your experiment to digress I understand bearings races generally should only be greased to 1/3 capacity with grease spread evenly, bearings then turn and do not skid in clog of grease causing friction and slower running. Although oiling imagine excess will do same, clogging causing resistance slowing movement. Droplet spread evenly on mating surfaces.
Really interesting test, surprised that more info is not available on dry and over oil running. Video footage under your microscope looked good to me as you worked. Did the current home enforcement have a bearing on all the work you put into this film? great job 👍
Mak Tea thanks is for the feedback . When I am on my scope one lens has my camera the other my good eye , when I take my eye away from the lens and look at my phone camera screen because I’ve not got my glasses on it’s all blurry so I never know what you guys can see until it comes to editing ....
As for lockdown I planned to make many videos but in reality I’ve made no more than usual!
The extra drag caused by over oiling causes the loss of amplitude. The loss of amplitude causes the increase in rate. Similar to when the mainspring is in a lower state of wind.
Thanks. A nice demonstration - even for Mr Bodger (Me). I have experimented on one of my Chinese clone 6497 watches which I lubricated with 10w 40 synthetic engine oil. It works very well and keeps time to about -20 seconds a day after a year of daily use. I realise this is iconoclastic, but the watch seems perfectly happy and is on my wrist 24/7. I REALLY appreciate questioning by experiment that you have shown here. Did you notice that on the time lapse the amplitude in the over oiled watch was around 220 degrees until it began to run down. I only mention this because we did not see what the amplitude was on the correctly oiled watch after 12 or so hours of running. I wonder if it reduced also, like the over oiled version.
Thanks, engine oil wow. Well I do often say that any oil is better than no oil. As for amplitude, I dont recall now but the experiment is a bit floored because its about how long the oil stays where it should and over years starts to solidify and stop the watch. I have fixed so many stopped watched by just giving them a service. Too much oil will run from where you have put it and could then effect other parts running. less is best is the moral of the story here. Thanks for watching.
Really a great video, unfortunately you haven't test oiling on the 2824 mvt. I would like to see that on a hight beat. Regards.
Interesting
As a hobbyist I use 9010, 9104 and KT22.
DAmmmm I know nothing about watches I’ve never owned one but this was fun
Could you theoretically get away with two oils and a braking grease for the mainspring barrel wall for say a ETA 2836 like Moebius 9010 and Synt-HP-1300 ?
I'm using 8000 and HP1300 but I also use KT-22 grease for the keyless works. However, I am working on vintage watches that run at 18,000 bph, the 2836 runs at 28,800 so you need to be using a high-performance oil on the pallet stones like 941. The high-beat movements are more demanding to work on, I like the vintage movements because they are more tolerant of beginning watchmakers like me.
3 times??
Jod job sir
Great information, I wonder what would happen if you tried using " dry slide" moly treatment ? That way it would never migrate
Not sure to be honest. You would have to be accurate in its application and you could not submerge whole plates if you wanted to treat other fixed jewels.
I just got fixadrop in a 30ml bottle as they now sell this complete with mess basket inside. Was still £30 I believe.
It's handy to keep 3 automatic oilers, one with fine oil, one more viscous, and one with quartz watch oil. .They can be adjusted to dispence the correct amount of oil each time, and are quick and easy to use...although it does require some practice to get used to them.
I have the Bergeon 1A that I use from time to time but don’t really get on with auto Oiler’s that much .
Great video. I’d be interested to see what happens if you come back to an over lubricated watch after 6 months or more. Once the oil has spread everywhere it would make a big difference
Possibly would take longer than that. once the oils get old they can get sticky or even attract small particles of dirt inside which ultimately would have an effect on the performance.
I find this very fascinating as well.
Would the fully put together again watch impact this in any way ?
I mean with the dial, casing, hands and all.
It got me thinking about the total mass of the watch,
and how that would impact or not the heartbeat of it.
Resonance describes the phenomenon of increased amplitude that
occurs when the frequency of a periodically applied force
(or a Fourier component of it) is equal or close to a natural frequency
of the system on which it acts.
Wikipedia*
Like tuning forks have different mass related to the frequency they produce.
Food for thought :)
So the DG2813 hand size differ from the Miyota 8215?
What a great video, this is similar to an experiment I did myself a while ago.
Going back a year or more when I began to watch Mark's videos on his Watch repair channel.
Which is probably the catalyst for my taking up this hobby in the first place, I was rather overcome by the large numbers of lubricants and greases that he used, and should I really take up this hobby after seeing the cost of this stuff ?
Later I kind of felt that I could "get by" with a general Anchor synthetic oil and silicone based grease for those tougher applications.
So, much later, having bought most of the required tools plus Timegrapher, I decided to run an experiment using two 2409A movements from a batch of old Vostoks I had here at that time.
These are rather basic movement with no calendar complications to worry about.
I cleaned and serviced one movement oiled and regulated it to give pretty good results, while the other I serviced left it DRY of oil and regulated it to give a very similar level of accuracy to the oiled movement.
Re-cased both movements and kept them both running for a month.
My theory was that if you ran a movement oil free you would increase wear due to friction, but I really wanted to know if the wear would "run in" the movement making it more efficient, for a while at least. (Russian watches not recognised for their engineering prowess).
Strange results after the month was up, the oiled watch maintained its original regulation with the same mediocre amplitude.
While the dry one sped up considerably, gaining both in time and amplitude with an increase in the power reserve of 4 hours over the oiled movement.
So somewhat like your experiment, there is no absolute clarity in the results observed. Now I'm tempted to oil and regulate the "dry" watch movement and run the test again. But I feel that it will just give the same performance as the original oiled movement.
Hello, love your channel. Speaking about oiling and maybe too much oiling. I have a watch with the DG2813 movement, I have been told the Miyota 8215 is a direct replacement. Unfortunately, it is not hackable. Will the Seiko NH35 work as well? What do you recommend? Thank you.
Sorry but I cant really advise you. I have no experience with any of these movements. The NH does have hacking and manual wind I believe but then would the dial fit right and that date windows line up with the wheels. Also would it fit the case, and would you need a movement ring. Sorry.
I actually never oil the mainspring, just grease the barrel walls if automatic. There is no friction on the spiral to lubricate, i think
I'm just lets call it a watch lover but with videos like this my passion is growing...so I'm about to start my own watchmaking journey.. . .
Now I have a question: I see you apply oils and lubricants everywhere on the watch parts are supposed to need it --now I wonder why
there is no oil applied to the gears themselves??? ...I mean there's a lot of friction between the gears teeth but no one is oiled at all...why not???
or ...would it be a "bad practice" to do so ????
The biggest problem with over oiling is that it will, over a short period of time, leave the pivot dry and allow component wear to occur. The excess oil will spread, down the staff or across the plate. Then capillary action will draw the rest of the oil out of the pivot.
good demonstration, anyways :)
Ok thats fine..proper oiling is the life of movement ..phil.seiko
What is the tune called, during the over oiling sequence?
Today I learned that I definitely overoil my watches
Great set of videos. I'd like to have a go at fixing my ETA mechanism and then reoiling. Had a look at cousins and to get tiny quantities of 9010, d5 and some non synthetic grease would cost more than £70. Clearly not economic. Which weight of fully synthetic motor oil could I use instead of 9010? (it's basically the same stuff but a bit thicker perhaps? I got 5l of fully synthetic 5w30 for £19.95, and as that has to perform at much higher temperature and pressure than watch oil I'm expecting the latter should be no pricier.).
Oil is such a touchy subject in watchmaking. My view is any oil is better than no oil. watch oils are extremely expensive. Moebius do one called 8000 which is £10 and non synthetic which will do jewels and low friction places. D5 there used to be a seller on ebay that decanted the big bottles into much smaller ones and sold much more affordably. Remember that you really dont need much oil. watches are designed to have the least amount of friction possible so too much oil has a damming effect. If they are your watches then its up to you what oil you want ot use.
@@MyRetroWatches Well thank you for that reply. According to the Moebius catalogue, D5 is a mixture of mineral oil and refined vegetable oil, so the non-synthetic stuff hardly sounds high-tech and gives the impression they went round to the chippies in Zurich looking for old chip fat. They say the 9010 is based on ether and aliphatic alcohol, but don’t say what the HP1300/9104 is made of, though its density at 0.85kg/l is very close to polyalphaolefin. Using ASTM D341 to calculate the kinematic viscosity at 20 and 40C, the closest motor oil to 9010 I think will be 5W30, which will be ~10% more viscous at 20C. For 9104 I will use 20W50 semi-synthetic as I don’t have anything heavier. For 8301 hard grease I will use standard lithium grease. Marginal cost £0. For my timegrapher I’ve removed the sounder from an old smoke alarm and plugged it into a PC running ‘watch o scope’, works fine, marginal cost £0. If I muck it up - which seems likely - then this watch is getting a quartz mechanism. I’m confident that I can hardly make more of a mess of it than Watches of Switzerland Ltd did in 1979 when they managed to scratch the inside of the sapphire crystal.
What was the grease you used? You refuted to it as Molly coat. What is is it exactly?
It is molykote
To be more precise it is Molykote DX paste
if you like experimenting, i highly recommend you to try a mix of Teflon/Wax/Thin oil. you can buy a Teflon/Wax bag and mix it (warm) with thin oil for watches. until you get a very thin cream texture when cold. almost liquid. easy to pick up and apply. the best cold lubricant for any metal known to man. drag is significantly reduced. spread less and doesn't dry as fast. highly used in cycling for chains per exemple. they gain a lot of drag reduction.
JayB29 This sounds interesting. Might have to look into that one thanks
@@MyRetroWatches btw this video reminds me of Seiko/Hattori movements 4R/NH35 and company. new out of the box, you get 250/270° amplitude for a good one. if you disassemble it and relubricate it with high standards, you get close to 300° amplitude. do you find that nomal form a house like Seiko?
even if they are cheap, they could make them better and have a better image. because they're not bad! they are just poorly assembled at factory. which leads people to avoid these movements. at least conoisseurs.