Female Preacher Prooftexts Considered and REFUTED
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
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Im a Reformed Baptist female, but grew up in a Pentecostal church where my mother was the “pastor.” I’m familiar with all of these, and many more, but especially Galatians 3:28. That is the their magic bullet, go to scripture. My mother is now 85 years old & recently said that she now knows that she was out of Gods will & made many mistakes. Many have admired her as a woman of God, but really they were deceived. Now, It’s as if she were going through the stages of grief as she is letting go of the long life she lived in deception & leading others into false doctrines. I ask you brothers & sisters to pray for her. It feels miraculous that she’s even beginning to admit it after all these years. I’ve prayed
fervently about this for years and praise God he’s opening her eyes, in his own precious timing!
This verse from Luke 15 (NKJV) comes to mind:
7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Oh, that makes me sad! May your mother feel Christ's forgiveness and grace during this stage of her life. It's never too late for repentance and healing to take place.
@ thank you so much! I love her so much! She wept & told me she really thought she was doing what God called her to do when I was young. She feels guilt, (conviction) but also much confusion. Yes, please pray for her peace & continued repentance! ❤️
If it was a Pentecostal church, they have far, far, worse problems still than simply women pastors... I'm afraid your mother likely has many other things in need of repentance of if her "teaching" was anything like we are used to seeing from such circles.
@Ex-Cult2Exalt
Sharing her experiences and love for God and Jesus are not sin. The location of her feet behind some podium of sorts on a platform is NOT a sin. Shame and depression for sharing the gospel as she knew it; how ridiculous!! Women don't need to be ordained to share. God knows the situation and her heart. She has nothing to worry about. Jesus knows the truth. Jesus loves your mom.
"A simple look at the context will really disabuse us of this one" 😆❤️👍
The scriptures are clear on this. Our culture doesn't like many things that scripture says but our lives need to conform to scripture not the other way around
Clear on this in what way? What does the full scripture say, with context?
Thank you for standing firm on this issue.
Now that I have seen this Truth, I can not unsee it. I got saved and was quickly established in the charismatic pentecostal movement. But years later, God rescued me. I am a single woman, who prayed, declared, decreed and all that nonsense, for my unbelieving, and unfaithful husband to be saved. 20 years later, he is still with his adulteress( married to her) and I left abandoned. But this caused me to want Truth. And oh yes, I got hold of it. After years of Joyce Meyer conferences and Beth Moore Bible studies, I clearly see the wrong path I was traveling. The Word of God is alive and real and tangible. We women have our roll. I cannot bare , even the women in Congress 🤦♀️. My walk as a single woman has times of deep sorrow, yet God has never been more real. His Word holds true. And my devotion and life is to Him first. Great explanation of Gods Truth in this video and thank you.
" After years of Joyce Meyer conferences and Beth Moore Bible studies, I clearly see the wrong path I was traveling. "
Glad to see you delivered, sister. :)
Interesting that you (correctly) put those two false teachers on the same level. Many would say that are not at all.
But they are!
Women have their role*... cannot bear*... 😊😊😊
Glad to hear that more women are coming out from under the deception of Joyce Meyer, Beth Moore, and many others 😀 👍 😃
Most people don’t care what the Bible teaches as they function as their own gods and will do and worship how they please and will eventually pay the price for that. I recently dated a woman whose sister was a minister at a Baptist Church, of course, and she wouldn’t listen to reason, which I expected, or showing her what scripture mentions about it. They just don’t care because women, in particular or governed by their emotions. Unfortunately, increasing number of men these days are as well.
Pragmatism is so much easier to live with than to live by God’s word.🤔
@@Stinkypete52 So, you see the increasingly wicked age, that we live in as pragmatic and the word of God as not being so? I wish you good luck in the future: You need it!
@1corinthians15.1-4kjv you completely missed my point. That being that churches are going with pragmatism because it is easier than standing on God’s word. I choose to stand on the word of Jesus Christ not pragmatism.
"Eve- ism" is what it should be called. God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but she rejected the simple and eventually died like God said would happen. Eve killed herself for disobeying God.
Women are not to hold positions of authority over men. God meant what he said thru Paul
The only person that holds a position of authority in the Church is Jesus Christ Himself. He alone is the head of the Church. We are all (men and women in the church) subject to one another.
@@PreacherPaul71 Not sure that's biblical. We are not to rule over one another as tyrants, but the Bible speaks of non-mutual submission at times. Wives to husbands, youngsters to elders. There is mutual serving, and the greater in the kingdom is the one who serves, but there is clearly hierarchy. I can't see "no one holds any position of authority" in the Bible. In fact, if there are no positions of authority, it doesn't make any sense for Jesus to say that the one who rules should be as one who serves (if there is not one who has any authority over others at all, that can follow the example of Jesus). I hope you understand that line of thinking. Again, i know authority can be abused, but let's be Biblical, not reactive.
@@PreacherPaul71 he is talking about the office of pastoral office and authority
We know. But it's great to see the woman-haters pop up so early.
Why is this a matter on which one pastor can assert theological authority over all other churches?
Have you noticed that most if not all commandments and instructions were given to us without reasons. But for the prohibition of female pastors we were actually given the reason but we still want to twist scripture.
Yes and people who claim to be interpreting these passages reject the scripture's self- exegesis and inject an alternative false exegesis
Pauls writings are not scripture unless he says 'the Lord commands ...' most of the time you will find he says 'I say...' 'I do not ...' This is NOT God speaking but Paul
@@michaelicornelius Oh really? I guess Moses writing the 10 Commandments makes it his Laws and not God's, right? What happened to ALL scriptures, not some, but ALL scriptures being God breathed. To me it sounds like the authors of the Bible are the pens God used to Write His Word. Imagine using a red pen to write a love story to your wife/husband and then me coming along and saying that it was the pen that wrote the letter; not you. I know this instruction is uncomfortable for all of us (me included), but there's always a danger to leaning to our own understanding and not ACKNOWLEDGE His ways -- including the qualifications of a pastor. We really need to repent. We've over fed the world with the Love of God and starved them with the Fear of Him, that's why we get these types of rebellion. Do you know that Rebbelion is as practicing witchcraft? What can we deduce from this? Are some pastors pastors or witches? The saddest part about all this is that no female pastors will make it in heaven, not even one. Yes, they led people to Christ, some healed and performed miracles, but they are practicing lawlessness. Let's read our Bibles and Repent.
@@michaelicornelius
Paul was heavily influenced by his culture, and that comes through in many of his writings. He repeatedly, in one way or another, taught that Christianity was hierarchical. Men over women. ALSO, men over men.
Jesus taught the opposite.
FYI Paul's teachings on multiple subjects are all
over the place. I've looked/written about some in
an informal way.
@@Szpak-123 "Paul was heavily influenced by his culture, and that comes through in many of his writings. "
Then the inspiration of Scripture by the Holy Spirit is contaminated by sin, and we have no revelation of God at all.
You are simply a disobedient heretic.
"the husband of one wife"
Sounds simple to me!
Only under Paul's thinking.
@@michaelicornelius Heretic
@ "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." ~ 2 Timothy 3:16
@@BeniaminZaboj all heretic means is one doesn't agree with orthodox opinion
@@Bulldog75stp in context all that meant is the Tanaka, the old testament. NT books were not decided until 4th century Council of Laodicea and we know what God thinks of that place, and it was the Council that decided that God's Sabbath was a Sunday, contrary to God's commandment.
Using Deborah as a model for the church would be like using Jael's wife as an example for treating guests
👍😅
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy.
@@Szpak-123 And having a woman rule over you is a sign of judgement. Not a prescription of what we should strive for.
Jael didn’t have a wife haha
We may never meet under the sun but you rock with the explanation.
There is obviously still controversy on this, but for myself, after listening to your explanation of the biblical texts, I have changed my mind; it is not biblical to have women in these positions. Thanks for the clear review of these passage.
The passages in question were already crystal clear.
Controversial, but not unclear. A tertiary knowledge of Scripture and a moderate dose of common sense is enough to answer this question; women can’t be preachers.
matthewdyer2926,
Well I would argue, to make such an emphatic claim, one would need to have ONLY a tertiary exposure to scripture.
It is true that God almost always put the duty of leadership on to men. It is also evident that God himself did not make that an exclusive rule. The story of Deborah is one clear example.
If we were to strictly interpret Paul‘s words as prohibiting women to speak in the church, we would also need to ask him why he then chose a woman to distribute the Roman letter to the various congregations. The courier was generally tasked with reading the letter publicly and making it to be properly understood by the hearers.
@@IvanEck-h8u Deborah was a judgement on Israel for the leaderless effeminacy of its condition at the time. _”Children are their oppressors and women rule over them.”_ That’s not a good thing, it a punishment.
That second part is simple conjecture, and an argument from silence, and if it were true, Paul would be contradicting what Paul _actually_ wrote in his letters. Not at all convincing.
Again, a tertiary knowledge of scripture and a little common sense will do you wonders.
Has there ever been a time in human history where morality is as bad as it is now?
Good, concise presentation. I agree with you. I'm beginning to see this problem as one not of differing interpretations, but of differing hermanuetics.
That we're even having a discussion on this topic is a blight on the church and the gospel.
Most controversies really are about people holding the Bible to different levels of authority.
I agree that we women are not meant to be preachers. It has nothing to do with our capabilities…yes God put forth women to preach in certain circumstances but only because there weren’t any capable men at the time to fill that office
I subscribe that the genders are equal but have been given different roles/ attributes and that both genders need to stay in their lane being supportive and appreciative of these roles and giving glory to God for His workmanship of us in His creation❤️
Amen 🙏
Could you remind me where in the Bible and in what circumstances God put forth women to preach?
@@nancyhandrichAs one example, I was referencing Debra…in Judges..it’s an argument that is put forth that because she was a Prophetess then God set a precedent that women can preach..it’s not that He put forth women per se more than there were no men stepping up to the plate so to speak and she wrongly usurped that role
@@nancyhandrich in small group settings or on the streets or at the workplace or while out shopping or at school meetings and on and on where if nothing is said because l am a woman opportunities to teach biblical truth will be lost and the losts souls no opportunity to hear the gospel.
God NEVER put women in a position to preach to women. Deborah is the example such ppl love to use, but she wasn't a pastor. Judges clearly shows that she was a prophetess who helped settled disputes. When Miriam tried to elevate herself to Moses' lvl of being a minister, God struck her with leprosy. What does that tell you?
Thank you, this is a much needed video.
Agreed. Regarding Junia and Andronicus, I do not think either of them were apostles, but the apostles as a group respected them. The preposition is 'en' the apostles, so 'among' as in the NKJV is an acceptable translation. My reason for thinking them not to be apostles is the fact that we know almost nothing about their commissioning. The original twelve have loads of evidence in the Gospels and the book of Acts to demonstrate their credentials. Matthias's elevation to the apostleship was fully explained and recounted in detail in Chapter 1 of Acts. The story of Paul's conversion and apostleship is again told often in the book of Acts and defended in his letters. If Andronicus and Junia were prominent apostles, I think we would have the whole story of their appointment told: when, where and why.
you wrote:
I think we would have the whole story of their appointment told: when, where and why.
Not to be nasty, but there isn't much here.
All this was settled at about 1100 B.C. Judges 4 and 5,
else my free informal essay on Deborah.
A good friend of mine goes to a church where they teach that women should not be pastors. We grew up in a Pentecostal church but she left two years ago to attend her new church. About a month ago, she raised the topic and would not let it go. I explained to her that I do not go to a church where the woman is a pastor and it does not affect me in any way. This did not deter her. She continued trying to persuade me that it is biblical, even though I am not a pastor nor am I in any position to influence what other people believe.
I have concluded that we are to find a way to respectfully discuss issues that are important to us without oppressing others or forcing them to believe what we believe.
I agree with your last statement about other issues but when it comes to the Bible, the truth is that there is one truth. Now the delivery of said truth matters and you can’t “force” someone to agree but truth must still be the standard regardless of their non acceptance. So in a way we do kind of force people to believe truth lol I’m not sure if I explained this well
@Msmanimckinsey I understand and you explained it clearly 😊 My point is there is no need to labour the point when the person that you are sharing with has no control over what happens in any church. Shouting me down and trying to persuade me has no bearing on what churches do. When I asked my friend if women not being pastors is as important to sharing the Gospel she said yes. That concerned me because I just don't think it is the case.
Thanks again for sharing 😊
@ I definitely get it!
@@cloudspl392Sharing the Gospel is definitely a tier 1 issue and women pastors issue a lower tier. When I saw a woman minister/pastor (call it what you want) in a poverty stricken desolate island in the Philippines where no other pastor went, I applauded her for bringing the Gospel to these people.
There is a time for the ivory tower folks to shut up and let Gods work happen by anyone willing to do these hardship assignments. I have no problem this lady will have rewards in heaven for her good work. Priorities matter to God.
@jonathandavid9720 Amen! Well said. Context is everything. I believe when Paul was saying that women had to be silent, that was for that church, at that time and in that context. Perhaps we as believers need to better understand how to rightly divide the Word.
Bless you 🤗
Thank you Matthew for your clear explanation and exegesis.I left a church 12 months ago because a female priest was appointed.It was a very painful exit because I was seen as some one who was behind the times and out of sync with church and denominational policy.I especially appreciate your comment about "a world view mangling the text" to buttress an argument.I wish I had seen this video back then because most of the arguments for female leadership and headship were trotted out then as you have listed.
Prior to today, I don’t know that I’d have read “known among the apostles” as being numbered among the apostles, but rather as a sort of archaic rendering of “known to the apostles,” like a fact recognized among scholars, similar to how the KJV says “of note among the apostles.”
However, the overarching point of your video, that the texts are stretched far beyond their intended meaning, is valid, and I can plausibly see somebody using “among” in the way you described. My pastor preached through Judges last year, and he mentioned the argument about Deborah and said (a) she wasn’t a pastor, and (b) she was raised up as a judgment against the cowardice of the men of Israel (like you mentioned).
Great video as always. God bless, sir!
I don't know if I buy the argument that Deborah was raised up as a judgement against cowardice. That may be part of Judges 5:2. Either way the key point is that Deborah was not a pastor, she was a judge and a prophet. It is a flawed syllogism to say that Deborah was a prophet therefore women can be pastors.
@@jamessmithson4757
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman
can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really.
I suggest my free scripturally-based essay on Deborah.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
...the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
you wrote:
My pastor preached through Judges last year, and he mentioned the argument about Deborah and said (a) she wasn’t a pastor, and (b) she was raised up as a judgment against the cowardice of the men of Israel
False AND False. I can prove that using scripture, if
there is sincere interest. Essay on Deborah, free, read time
is 10 minutes.
@@jamessmithson4757 "My people-infants are their oppressors,
and women rule over them.
O my people, your guides mislead you
and they have swallowed up the course of your paths."
Isaiah clearly says woman ruling over you is judgement.
@@Szpak-123 Judges aren't pastors and Deborah was judgement. Isaiah 3.
Unless we want to go through other judgements in Isaiah 3 and say they were actually prescriptions for the church as well...
It sure is convenient when scriptural teachings that don't align with the secular world's values suddenly don't apply anymore. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
God said what he said!!! Everybody get back to bible!!!
Nice and concise presentation. I personally have heard of least 3 of these verses twisted in order to form a defense of the practice.
What gained traction in Pentecostal/ Charismatic ( e.g. Aimee Semple McPherson, Kathryn Kuhlman) traditions jumped the shark into the mainline denominations.
For an in depth study of the offices of the church “Biblical Eldership” by Alexander Strauch is comprehensive.
Thank you for this clear and concise explanation. Now let’s get the rest of the PCA to understand this!
"...suffer not a woman to teach".
St. Paul, an Apostle of Christ
I Timothy 2:12
Apparently, they just say Paul was wrong. Which I guess means we can ignore half the NT (and Isaiah) if it's not popular with the our pagan, feminist society. I don't even get why they want to claim Christianity if they don't believe most of the Bible. If that's the standard, we could all be muslims, we just don't believe the Quran! lol
Thank you so much, I enjoy thinking these things through with you. Hoping you could be helpful and help us to think through a similar topic of Women teaching something like Adult Sunday School (male and female in attendance). Thank you for your ministry.
I agree with you with regard to ordination of female pastors. However, you may be misrepresenting the full counterargument involving Pheobe. Again, I agree with you concerning ordination, but it is important to dig into this one a little deeper to be fair with it.
The word translated "servant" (διάκονον) is not one subject to textual dispute. It is a singular male noun. Phoebe is not a male, because Paul also calls her ἀδελφὴν, which is the feminine for a sibling, or "sister" as translated. The question is why a male form is applied to her. The argument for ordaining women goes beyond just this verse and tries to clarify the other passages relating to church offices to broaden their use of male nouns and pronouns to be titular. Then, so they argue, as the titles are all in male form, even when applied to women, so are all the offices and roles.
It is this final part where their argument goes wrong. It is a logical fallacy. That Phoebe is given a male title of Deacon is not incorrect, but the assumption that this is the same title and office as describe in 1Tim 3:8-13, and then the additional conflation of this assumption to the other office described in 1Tim 3:3-17 is the error. Their argument ignores that Paul had full command of the language. A writer's attention to gender selection may either be generally correct or be haphazard, but we see no evidence that Paul was ever lacking in authorial skill. To Timothy, he wrote exactly as the Lord inspired. To the Romans, exactly as the Lord inspired. He wrote, including gender, what he intended, and if it could be misunderstood or misapplied or the grandeur of it overlooked, he clarified, as Gal 3:28-29 makes clear the glorious reach of salvation.
However, we cannot overlook nor dismiss Romans 16:1 and the intent behind the male form of "worker". It is a male noun. It is applied to a female. Either there are female Deacons, or male titles are applied to females in some contexts for other reasons. The church is divided on what this means. Even within the RPCNA the practice of ordaining women to the office has lost and gained acceptance over the years. I contend that the problem begins not with understanding men's versus women's roles, or the offices of church, but what exactly is ordination, its purpose, its function, and its institution. Once ordination is well defined, then it becomes a bit more clear what we are talking about when we referring to the ordination of Old Testament priests, Joseph, prophets, David and other kings, and the elders and deacons of the church - there is not just one ordination, but each according to their gifts and the needs of the church. Whether given a charge and role, office or task, or whether hands should be lain on them, is much clearer if we look to be obedient and submissive to the whole, and not fitting the parts to our own desires. Therefore, after having studied this off and on for many years as new arguments arise, including conversations with Pastor Christian Adjemian in his work to prepare an article on the matter ( www.reformedprescambridge.com/articles/Deaconess.03jul02.pdf ), I have concluded that women do have formal roles in the church as described in the Bible, that among these roles there are some properly called "Deacons," and one should make no assumption that such a title implies the same ordination that is given to other roles and offices.
Another strong argument is that Jesus chose 12 male disciples.
Not really, because to be logically consistent you'd have to exclude gentiles given that Jesus chose 12 Jews to be His disciples, but no gentiles.
@ exclude Gentiles from what?
@@VickersJon Oh come on, your point was about excluding women from the priesthood on the ground that Jesus chose 12 male disciples not female. To be logically consistent you'd have to exclude gentiles from the priesthood too because He chose 12 Jews. Don't play dumb.
@@tonyoliver2750 All Gentile believers are grafted into the true Israel through faith in Christ. Also, this has never been taught in scripture or by the church that Gentiles cannot be in the teaching office.
@@VickersJon "All gentile believers..." That's right, both men and women, but that's not the point is it? I am addressing what you claim is "another strong argument" and pointing out why it is not a strong argument at all. FYI, I am not arguing for the ordination of women, which I do not accept, I am pointing out the reason why your argument does not work. If you don't want to concede the point, that's your problem.
"Among the apostles" does not mean "they were numbered among the apostles". From a strict grammar standpoint, it certainly CAN mean that, but the more normal reading is that they were, as we would say today, known TO the apostles. That is, when the apostles got together, they might talk among themselves about these people that they knew. This is a case where modern people, not being "fluent" in King James English, mistake the simple meaning of the text.
I would prefer people being fluent in the Greek to explain the passage. The KJV, from all my research, is not the most reliable English text since they use later manuscripts.
@@rogueprincess89 The KJV uses the manuscripts that were in the mainstream. Maybe the "older" manuscripts were sidelined as less accurate? Anyway, it's only a half truth that modern translations use older manuscripts. They use the most modern, synthetic manuscripts.
@jamesreed5678 they took verses out of the modern translations that were in the KJV because they weren't in earlier manuscripts. Are you saying that later manuscripts were more accurate because they had words added to them?
@ "he KJV uses the manuscripts that were in the mainstream. Maybe the "older" manuscripts were sidelined as less accurate? "
No. This is the lie of the KJVO movement, but it does not stand up to the historical facts.
Exacly. I have been among a lot of people or groups and not be one of them. I have been to India and was among them, but I am not indian. Not even close
I AM Woman Hear Me Roar.( for all who rememberthis song).. sadly, i believe they should not hold the position of Pastor. 1 Timothy 3:2
Hey brother, want your thoughts on a situation I’ve seen in regards to this. A husband and his wife moved into a small Midwest town off the beaten path. They started a church. Over the years the husband and pastor fell into sin and left his wife never to be seen again. The wife, still burdened for the people in the small town has continued to pastor the church and disciple many. Thoughts on best practice in this case?
Yes i have seen this situation in remote areas, i would also appreciate advice on these situations. 🙏
They should pray as a church for a Pastor/Minister according to scripture.
Dang, what a great sponsorship partner! I did biblingo for a little bit and thought it was great (it helped me maintain some Greek before going to seminary.) I hope biblingo supports a lot of theology channels on here to make it more viable for people to post solid theological content.
Pastor Everhard, the other section of Scripture that is used for female Pastors is Acts 18 talking about Aquila and Priscilla.
Feminists point to a PRIVATE conversation where there's no report that Priscilla even said anything. Yet, that makes her a church leader? When people reach like that, it proves they don't really care what the Bible says.
They're flat out tidiculous arguments and show how people who want to disobey God will dream up any lie necessary to justify it.
Presume much?
@@jonathandavid9720 I mean this comment section has people claiming the scripture written by Paul aren't inspired... so yea, when people will write off half the NT (and ignore Isaiah, and male headship throughout all of scripture) it's "pretty ridiculous" how far people will go to disobey God.
Most churches do a lot of this, with their pet doctrines. "Disobey God will dream up any lie necessary to justify it." Speck and log.
This topic turns grown men into scared little boys.
They never where men. Just someone in a male body.
How many great female theologians and preachers do we know from church history?
That’s actually irrelevant to the truth, in all fairness.
@@AHagridLookalike I think it's very relevant. The most gifted Christians in these areas are men, which is in line with what the scriptures teach about the order of the church. I can't think of any gifted women in these areas, and I think if the arguments for female pastors etc were valid we would see some great women rise to the top in these areas. That's not to say there are no great women in Christendom. There are but just not in these areas.
Thank you for the explanation.
Men and women are spiritually equal. That is how a
woman, Deborah, could judge men of their sins and
teach from scripture.
This isn't my opinion, but written in the Old Testament.
I really appreciate your material.
Wow I didn’t know that diakonos was used for Phoebe, that’s awesome.
The Judges were pastors/shepherds, as written.
So, Gideon, Deborah, etc.
Some people search the Bible in order to justify what they believe. The correct way to read the Bible, however, is for the purpose of changing what you believe. Renewal of the mind Romans 12:2
Yea, it should be telling when people will disregard half the NT in order to hold a view that just so happens to be more popular with the secular world. I'm guessing if we didn't live in society infested with feminism, that they wouldn't hold that same view. Very convenient that after disregarding Paul, turning Deborah into a pastor (then writing off Isaiah, because that's inconvenient), and ignoring the male headship throughout the rest of all of scripture... you can suddenly arrive at a view that's more palatable to our secular culture. Who could have guess that?
I'll go ahead and debunk them all right here...
I'm not sitting in a pew, listening to a woman speak from her heart...
I expect no less than 20 scriptures to back up the message that God has for me on any given day...
Why would I listen to anyone that doesn't know that ""the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked""...
Now that we got that covered...
Not going to listen to a man that can't read a calendar 🤣...
I don't get me started on all the preachers that feel it necessary to indicate that it is perfectly okay to be disobedient to God! 🧐😎...
"among the apostles" is an older style English [passive voice] rendering to communicate the awareness and knowledge-base of a dispersed category of peers, in this case apostles. Similarly, Paul states that the Church at Rome was well-known/reported among the Greek and Asian churches; he's not saying the Romans is one of them, but that they are "known amongst the churches".
The feminist movement is poison
Roman 16;1 is a tricky one because the same word have many meanings diakonos can be as the diakonos the office but also means waiter, or servant. So you need to give context to it but can be disputed because as I said the word has a large meaning.
Readers are advised to remember that demons are liars. Not everything that
Boltglue says should be assumed to be true, even from his own perspective.
-S. Szpak
Email #4
Nightowl, my dear brother
As always, you MUST see to it that ALL females
in the Old and New words are regarded as unimportant.
Only the male animals have importance. Teach that this
is obvious and only fools would question such clarity.
Mary was the mother of the Liar's son and was therefore half of the couple that
raised him. Make sure to teach that she was a poor and ordinary mother.
And that most women were poor ordinary mothers then. Cheapen her.
Phoebe was a deacon. Make sure to teach that she was just
a "servant". Say she was a waitress or mailgirl. Cheapen her.
Priscilla seemed to teach Apollos, but teach that she only
agreed with what Aquila taught. Cheapen her.
The bitch, Mary Magdelene, was unhinged and saw the gardener
at the tomb. She imagined it was the Liar's son, and told the eleven
he was alive. She is the one that started version two of this deceitful
"religion". Say she was only a messenger, in their fairy tale religion.
Cheapen them all, always. ALWAYS.
-your holy older brother Boltglue
Great video and list. One more verse they like to twist is in Acts chapter 2 quoting from Joel chapter 2 about “sons and daughters prophesying. I hear that argument quite a bit nowadays.
Amen brother !
Question everything ! And save the children .
Zach Garris's masculine Christianity is an excellent resource on this conversation (along with the home society etc.) hes a solid pca guy!
Good brief critique again. Thanks, brother Matt. My three comments are: (1) I would only add to the Deborah situation that she certainly was a noble, admirable leader at the time, but in context, as you pointed out, it was something God brought about not so much to approve of female leaders in a nation as much as it was to shame the men for their lack of leadership. (2) I used to view the diaconate as only open to men but after reading Matthew Smethurst's Appendix 1 in the IX Marks "Building Healthy Churches" series, he neatly presents the main arguments on both sides of the issue, and I have crossed the line to the other side, even if only slightly. In my mind, if the office of deacon is put up very close to and similar to the office of elder, then "yes" women should not hold such an office. But if a deacon is a servant, a project-manager so to speak, working under the direction of elders, then she can be a project-manager type of servant in a church. We have a female treasurer in our church. We call her a deacon(ess), but we could just as easily call her a servant. She does a very good job, by the way. (3) The qualifications for officers are found in 1 Timothy 3, not 2. Though there is, of course, a beautiful prescription section at the end of chapter 2 teaching us plainly that women are not to exercise authority over men in the church.
Matthew, very well done. Believe it or not, the Romans 16 text that you saved for last seems to be growing in use by liberal theologians as a proof text for the ordination of women. In my opinion your analysis of the Romans 16 text was accurate.
God word clearly teaches against woman as a pastors preaching or teaching men. Satan has invaded the minds of many women and some men to believe
that Gods word is a lie. That’s not what he ment. They can use that argument to justify anything they want. Sad
So a wife can't teach her adult son to cook?
When do boys become men?
12? So boys can't learn English from a woman?
Some Christians seem delusional. I can't wrap my head around your nonsense.
@@americanswan
Simple, they are followers of Paul.
Paul was heavily influenced by his culture, and that comes through
in many of his writings. He repeatedly, in one way or another, taught
that Christianity was hierarchical. Men over women. ALSO, men over men.
Deborah, Judges 4 and 5. Else my free essay on her should you
wish a study. A Judge could teach scripture, even execute a man.
Where exactly does God decree this. Not Paul saying 'I do not permit ...' but God saying it or even one of the 12 saying it? Or over Paul putting a 'thus says the Lord...'
In Corinthians Paul says that the Holy Spirit gives gifts as He decides. Yet Paul says women must be silent in church - Jesus defined church as where two or three are gathered, so the Holy Spirit gifts His gifts BUT Paul ordains they cannot be used - seems rather redundant!
Interesting that in Corinthians Paul does not even list Pastor nor Evangelist as a gift of the Holy Spirit.
@@michaelicornelius
I've looked at some of Paul's teachings that are related to
gender, and others as well. He contradicts his own teaching
WITHIN a single paragraph. He teaches against marital sex
because he believes that the time is so so short, that it would
be pointless. He had no problem with unbelievers preaching
the gospel. He handed two men over to Satan, and stated
their names in a letter.
Also more stuff. Yet people state all his teachings
are perfect?!
@@Szpak-123 So in order to arrive at female pastors, you just have to believe the Bible is corrupt! You make a good case.
What other scripture do you disregard to accommodate views that are more acceptable to our pagan society?
The first evangelist was the man who had many demons (demoniac). After the man was healed from the many demons (Jesus chased the demons from the man to the pigs which ran into the sea), the man after he was "clothed and in his right mind", he wanted to follow Jesus, but Jesus told him to "go home to tell what The Lord has done for you"
1 Timothy 3, not 2, in case no one has pointed it out.
What’s the difference between diakonos and doulos? Why wouldn’t the latter be more appropriate if one were to be called a servant to the church?
Same question. We are all called to be servants. Maybe it has to do with ordination?
@@owlfethurz8377 Remind me when were Jesus apostles ordained? Were we not all ordained through the Great Commission?
No. Doulos is very strong, and is more "slave" than "servant"
Excellent!
Good video. I have two observations to add. With regard to Deborah, I think it's interesting that in Hebrews 12, where we read of people who did things by faith, Barak is listed, but not Deborah. Also, while I am no Greek scholar, I do know a little about English. For those who would interpret "among" in such a way as to mean that Junia was one of the apostles, I would point out that it is a legitimate English usage to understand that she is known among the apostles means that among the apostles, she is known. Among the members of my family, John Donne is known. Is he a member of our family? No. He died hundreds of years ago All that to say, whether we translate it "to" or "among" it is hardly a convincing proof text for women to be pastors.
Nothing negative is written about Deborah in Judges 4 and 5.
In contrast to Gideon when he was a Judge.
Barak did his bit in the end, but he was never referred to
as a Judge. More below:
_______________________________________________________
Then Barak said to her, “If you will go with me, then I will go; but if you will not go with me, I will not go.”
Barak stated that he would obey the Judge over Israel ONLY if the Judge
did such and such. Though not stated explicitly, I think it is reasonably
clear that because of this disobedience Barak would not be given the
greatest prize. That is, the killing the enemy commander. That would be given to a woman, Jael, who wasn't even part of the battle.
A woman that he had no authority over would be called:
Most blessed of women...
and Most blessed is she of women...
-two excerpts from Judges 5
It seems obvious that because Barak disobeyed the woman, Deborah,
that had authority over him, a woman, Jael, that he had no authority
over would get the greatest prize.
Baptist pastor here, and this is not a controversy among those in our fellowship. It is, however, among others. Thank you for the dispassionate examination of this topic. Well done.
1:45- There are biological females who fraudulently and erroneously claim the title of ‘pastor’.
How can a shepherd manage a flock of sheep without ‘exercising authority’ over them?
Thank you for this sober and exegetical teaching. I very much agree. I believe the Bible teaches that men and women are equal in nature, but very different in their God-ordained roles and positions--and those roles are quite clearly defined in Scripture. It is always wrong for women to attempt to usurp the authority of men--even, I believe, when men aren't fulfilling their expected roles. We don't correct a wrong with another wrong. God bless.
you wrote:
I believe the Bible teaches that men and women are equal in nature, but very different in their God-ordained roles...
Doesn't work.
Deborah was a Judge with the authority to execute.
Her husband was not a Judge.
Good video, but some complementarians (including myself) are fine with female deacons. Being a deacon does not involve teaching, or ecclesiastical authority over men (which is what is barred in 1 Tim. 2:12), so I see no reason to restrict the office of a deacon to men. When speaking of offices, or ordination, we should not commit the false dichotomy fallacy, where we assume all or nothing; women are barred from PARTICULAR functions/offices.
Well, in the ESV the footnote is "or deaconess" so saying the NLT & NIV are liberal and the ESV is not is just a matter of moving the word into the text in the next revision of the ESV.
Deaconess means is a female servant, such as a bar maid. The first deacons (all men) were appointed to serve tables (which was being poorly done by women, before). The word itself carries no meaning of leadership or preaching.
Decon ment something different back then, then what it does today. Although the wording servent or decon can be used interchangeably there the definition remains the same. She was a servent to the church or an early version of a nun. If you look at matt 20 25-28. When christ is describing leadership in the church.
Probably not a woman of child bearing age. I envision a woman over 50 and respected in her community.
Calling her an early version of a nun opens up a whole new kettle of (stinky) fish.
Titus 2: 3-5: "the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things- that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed." I think women can teach other women and children. The criteria for teaching is in this passage -- and it's pretty clear to me that it's an important job " so the word of God may not be blasphemed." And anybody who has kids KNOWS it's not always an easy job. Anyway, I really enjoyed the simple explanation of the whys and why nots, I only wish you would have went into Priscilla and Aquilla with more depth- unless I've missed a previous message on them. I've heard Priscilla/ Aquilla mentioned SO MANY times as a reason for women pastors that I've dubbed it The Priscilla/Aquilla Phenomenon. I personally don't see that these two were " co-pastors", but a lot of people seem to.
Deborah.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
...the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
@@Szpak-123 I think he already addressed Deborah. A woman in leadership is a sign of judgement on a nation. Isaiah 3:12:"As for My people, children are their oppressors,
And women rule over them.
O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err,
And destroy the way of your paths."
@@thankyoujesus24
I've written a free informal essay on Deborah.
Some is below. All is postable.
THE REASON GOD SENT HER here:
...the Lord was moved to pity...
And when the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the Lord was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who tormented and oppressed them.
-excerpt Judges 2
The sending of a Judge meant God was showing mercy to His people.
It wasn't a judgment against them.
Since Deborah was a woman, this scripture is sometimes used
in error to describe her, in our time:
My people! Their oppressors treat them violently,
And women rule over them.
My people! Those who guide you lead you astray
And confuse the direction of your paths.
-excerpt Isaiah 3
They are taking the prophetess Deborah and comparing her to
Jezebel who murdered prophets.
Has it not been reported to my master what I did when Jezebel killed the prophets of the Lord, that I hid a hundred prophets of the Lord...
-excerpt 1 Kings 18
When a Judge died, THEN people were led astray.
But it came about, when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their obstinate ways.
-excerpt Judges 2
After Deborah's time in Judges 4 and 5, we see confirmation of the people
turning back and acting more corruptly than their fathers.
Then the sons of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord handed them over to Midian for seven years. The power of Midian prevailed against Israel.
-excerpt Judges 6 first two sentences (above)
When the shepherd over Israel died, the people went back into sin.
That is because the Judge was the most important spiritual leader of this time period.
What do you think about Rz 16:1 ESV "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae," What is "servant of the church" (διάκονον ὁ ἐκκλησίας)?
Since that has nothing to do with being an elder/pastor, I don't get why this is brought up (other than it's a woman and people want it to mean elder).
An older lady baking cookies for shut ins is serving the church. The people who volunteer to clean up after service. The guy who mows the lawn for free. Or int hose times, perhaps someone who allows their house to be used for the gathering, etc. Tons of things are serving the church.
Nowhere does this override / affect the actual qualification given for the office of Elder.
Even the least liberal Presbyterian churches in my multi-city area allow women pastors, some with women leading their congregations and the rest allowing women to be occasional pulpit-preaching pastors on Sundays. I don't get how they justify it. Many of these churches were influenced by the late Tim Keller. When pressed, he would state the conservative line. It was his failure to preach that line clearly.
There are Presbyterian USA that are more conservative than other Presbyterian USA. Presbyterian PCA do not all women pastors. The Episcopal Bishop of the area of the National Cathedral is Presbyterian USA, the tour guide told me that she does not even consult other denominational bishops in the area. Which is another aspect that the National Cathedral, is supposed to represent all denominations, the church that all are to pray in. Though, having Darth Vader as one of your statues is pretty strange. Three main Liberal Churches that have Full Communion with each other are ECLA, (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America), Presbyterian USA, and Episcopal. The common characteristics of these three Liberal sections of denominations, (Lutheran Missouri Synod, Lutheran Wisconsin Synod and Presbyterian USA are all Conservatives, believing the Bible is inerrant), is the Bible is inspired, not inerrant or infallible, gay marriage and woman pastors. There could be a distinction between an ordained woman Pastor that is not the head of the congregation, co-pastors with their husbands and only teaching to women, and Head Pastors of a church.
This is a direct result of "Christianity" teaching that the Law was abolished by Christ. Traditional Christianity's contempt for the Law has directly influenced how its churches operate and worship. Even in the Law, it is evident that God commanded that His ministers be male.
Um, what about Colossians 4:15 ?
There's no indication that Nymphas was a woman. Even if he were a she, hosting a church in her home doesn't mean leading a church. Feminists have nothing, except their anti-biblical fantasies.
If we are to really follow the example of the early church, everyone came with a word of encouragement, a song or a testimony. That approach allows everyone to participate and be edified. To rely soley on the pastor as the font of all knowledge surely suggests that everyone else lacks knowledge and wisdom.
The early church began in homes and it would make sense to me that we are to return to worshipping God in small groups in homes with everyone making a contribution to edify the body of Christ.
Women are meant to gather together and teach the children.
Model the behavior
We are called to raise them up in.
Women are meant to be help mates..the rib.. beside, not behind, not in front, not the head, not the foot....beside. honored, equally yoked. Context Matters. Deborah was also a military minded woman. Deborah was not a Minister, Pastor.
She is clearly stated as a prophetess..not at all the Sheppard of The Flock. Context. Thank you for breaking this down. It was a crisis in masculinity.
The Mary's had their rolls.. Personal Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Not an ordaination.
I suggest my free scripturally-based essay on Deborah.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
...the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
Full read time: 10 minutes postable here
Thank you for this 👍
I get it😊. However, as it was explained to me from the old testament book of judges, there was Deborah. (Judges 4) Under similar conditions of apathetic leader- ship, as we have now and at that time, Deborah stated a harsh proclamation (judges 4:9)and excepted the appointment😮.… Now, let’s talk about how the pastoral position as we know it, is not biblical😮. Was the position contrived by Roman Catholicism around the 12th or 13th century, actually inventing the word and the position?The biblical offices of the church represented in the five fold ministry specifies the word Shepard. (Ephesians 4: 11-12)The kind of shepherd that lays down his life for the sheep. Who walks in his steps, carries his cross and is prepared to defend the sheep from the attacking lions. Not to be offensive, but have you considered addressing The corporate style hierarchy of the church that surrounds itself with “yes men”.😢😢😢. Is it perhaps the church is What the Roman empire made it into in the third and fourth century? Wasn’t it these men who compiled the Bible and selected some of the New Testament letters that has led us too our present day divisively empirical church government?
She said, “I will certainly go with you; however, the fame shall not be yours on the journey that you are about to take, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.” Then Deborah got up and went with Barak to Kedesh.
I wrote an informal free essay on Deborah. She is mentioned
as being the Judge over Israel before Barak comes into the picture.
Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. ... Now she sent word and summoned Barak...
-excerpts Judges 4
Also, the leaders are commended multiple times in Judges
5 by Deborah and Barak. (covered in the essay).
Full read time: 10 minutes postable here
Yo no way it's Wretched Radio Junior
Good video! Thank you
Galatians 3:28 could be used to support other strong arguments, but I agree on it's own it has nothing to do with ordination and can not be the main argument.
Gal. 3:28 can never be _legitimately_ argue in favor of women being pastors because Paul is not talking about church government at all. The point he is making here is about there being no difference between a Jewish Christian or a Gentile Christian as far as God is concerned.
@theeternalsbeliever1779 I think the passage could be used for a larger discussion on quality, but as has been said, it is not a good verse on its own because it isn't about ordination.
@@americanswan
The Judges were pastors/shepherds. So, Deborah. Judges 4 and 5.
...the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
Paul was heavily influenced by his culture, and that comes through in many of his writings. He repeatedly, in one way or another, taught that Christianity was hierarchical. Men over women. ALSO, men over men.
In sharp contrast to the equality teachings of Jesus.
There are woke male pastors . I question whether Pastor is a valid scriptural position
No question. They're unqualified to pastor.
I could go with Hebrew
But why is Greek the standard
Wasn't Jesus born in a region where they speak Aramaic
And if you read the scriptures it says that Jesus was against established religions like the Pharisees and the Sadducees
"And if you read the scriptures it says that Jesus was against established religions"
Where does it say that?
Thank you.
Glory to God
I think this verse also is required to understand this issue. God doesn’t need mankind’s service. So he decides who is to be a pastor. It’s not based on the passion of human beings or their talent etc.
Acts 17:24-25
[24] The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, [25] nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.
Does the office of "pastor" imply that this person has the authority to expel anyone from a church or offer an authoritative interpretation of scripture? Are today's women the same as ancient women who had no legal rights? The ancient meanings of pastor and preacher, teacher, etc. must be understood to know what is legitimate for today.
There are no female pastors in the Bible, but neither are there male pastors mentioned.
These seem to be a confusion about ordination a female pastors. I do not see that any five folds are ordained. Paul and Barnabas were offered the right hand of fellow and were commanded by the Holy Ghost to be separated to the military ssion to which the had been called, but we're not ordained by any human agency. There is also no indication that Silas or Agabus were ordained, or for that matter Justice. Phillip was not ordained as an Evangelist, but if the same a was ordained to distribute to widows. There is no one ordained as an official teacher, for we have one master and that is Christ. A pastor is likewise without requirements.
A very different Biblical situation appertains to elders, bishops and deacons, if elders and bishops may be distinguished from each other, for bishops are to be husband of one wife.
Pastors may but do not necessarily serve in the realm of the church. They can be political leaders, even as Cyrus was God's anointed pastor. What determines whether one is a pastor or not, is their method of relating to those to whom they are to pastor, not to have authority over.
It is notable that Aquilla and Priscilla, which couple have the order of their names reversed constantly in the book of Acts and both this husband and wife team explained the way of Jesus to Apollos more perfectly, since he knew only the baptism of John the Baptist. No doubt they were both involved in evangelization and equally so.
If women are not considered as described by a term requiring ordination, the problem of women pastors disappears. Five-fold ministers exercise spiritual authority, but are not vested with institutional authority, unless they are also an elder, bishop or deacon. Peter and John were also elders, but while Paul called himself an old man, he never used the form of the word elder that is used of on is in authority. He may tell congregations what to do, but it is their responsibility to do it. He is not lord over their faith, but knowing the terror of the Lord he persuades men.
One more thing about Junias, which is a name both madculine or feminine, but mostly feminine, like Beverly, of which one is famous, George Beverly Shea, and of which I have known one male, but several females, Iraenius, the third generation of church leaders, disciple of a disciple of John of the Twelve, on whom we depend for name of writers of the cannonical gospels, said what a great woman Junias must have been. I witnessed in Kenya the deference that pastors paid to an elderly woman when she spoke, which was unlike how they reacted to the presence of any other female. I did not know what she said. Unlike most younger ministers she did not speak any English. But I didn't need to understand that she must have been someone special. Even in cultures where males dominate, there are special women who are looked up to by all, and Junias was probably such a woman.
The woman who addressed the congregation which Trump visited seemed to be intent on giving Trump her two cents worth.
She did in no sense seem to be speaking from the Holy Spirit like the four daughters of Phillip the Evangelist who prophesied. If their words pierce though you and make your hair stand on end, it might be a true prophecy. Women do not need ordination to exercise that gift.
you wrote:
There are no female pastors in the Bible, but neither are there male pastors mentioned.
The Judges were pastors/shepherds. Deborah, Gideon, etc.
...the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
For an entire chapter on worthless shepherds, the reader may
check out Ezekiel 34. Some (or all) of the duties of a pastor/shepherd
are listed.
'ordination' to me goes back to organized religion. The term
is borderline offensive.
@Szpak-123 If judges are counted as pastors, then there are named male and a female judge. However, the word of a judge carried institutional authority, unlike the position of a believer, who was not to be Lord over our faith, but a servant.
@@tomlawhon6515
(I wrote an informal free essay on Deborah, should there
be interest at some point.)
pastors/shepherds existed in the Old Covenant and the New.
The time of the Judges ended due to sin, as you probably know.
Therefore, I urge elders among you, as your fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and one who is also a fellow partaker of the glory that is to be revealed: shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not with greed but with eagerness; nor yet as domineering over those assigned to your care, but by proving to be examples to the flock.
-excerpt 1 Peter 5
We seem to be on the same page. I admit I didn't read every word
of your first post.
Mostly on board with all the arguments you’ve made but I’m not convinced on Phoebe not being an actual deacon. I think the plain reading and context is that she had some sort of “official” servant role if Paul entrusted her to deliver this letter.
However, I still think the scriptures are clear that female deacons don’t have the same function as male deacons.
For example: They shouldn’t help distribute communion.
This discussion has been beat to death in the last couple of years. I wonder if it was predicated by Rick Warren and others promoting female pastors.
Cherry picking, isolating small parts of and misquoting verses are a scourge. The average person is clueless.
Oddly though, all these arguments seem to go out the window when it comes to missionaries, as if somehow the Bible does not apply when dealing with brown people. I have no problem with female deacons -- indeed, they seem uniquely gifted for the role -- but that should not extend deacons to leadership roles in the church.
Excellent video
Hi there, there is no argument for disobeying God/Jesus. To disobey God is one way you now you are on the road to Hell. To get off this road to Hell is to repent and obey Jesus.
Yep
I don't agree with female pastors but what about the scripture that says "my sons and daughters will prophesy "?
Prophesying and preaching are not synonymous.
The office of a prophet does not inherently grant one ecclesiastical authority to preach. That's what ppl using Deborah as proof that women can preach don't understand. When Hilkiah consulted Huldah the prophetess for a word from God(2 Kin. 22:14, 2 Chr. 34:22), he still outranked her as God's minister.
@ Oh ecclesiastical authority - very Roman Church! Rather denies Corinthians 12 doesnt it?
...the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
Deborah, Gideon, etc. were pastors/shepherds.
EVERHARD HAS SPOKEN!! IT IS DONE!
Based. Subscribed.
Mostly I agree, but you have to trip pretty hard over “deacon” not meaning “deacon”.
The Judges were pastors/shepherds. Deborah, Gideon, etc.
...the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
There are official offices we are given requirements for, then there's the simple meaning of the word.
Deacon is a servant. So anyone serving the church in any capacity.
But the office of Deacon is a prescribed office with requirements.
Just like apostle simply means "sent one", i.e. a missionary
But the office of Apostle is a specific office that was used to lay the foundation of the church, bring God's new revelation, etc.
Deacons and Deaconesses are open to men and women or wives. They are both called to serve. They are not the same as an elder/pastor which is reserved for men.They are two separate offices. And to deny women the right to be a deacon without Biblical evidence strikes me as hypocritical. Deacons are to help orphans and widows, something we all should do.
You are soo close.
I suggest my free scripturally-based essay on Deborah.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
...the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
Oh, dear, the first commercial! Oh, please don't start going down this line!
deborah was a judge over isreal. that means all of israel
Wrote a free informal essay on her.
Isaiah 3 - Women rulers are a sign of judgement, not a prescription to strive for.
I agree that the example of Phoebe as pointing to women's ordination is weak, given that "deacon" is often understood as being a servant.
I'm not convinced of women's ordination. The only thing I've seen somewhat convincing, is how people define or describe the role of prophet/prophetess. In Martyn Lloyd-Jones's three volume biblical theology from Crossway, he described the prophets as being teachers of God's Word. From that perspective, I still see prophets being a different distinction from ordained priests -- even if a prophetess can exhort people to repent and believe.
God bless, Matthew.
Yes. And women are even called to teach (teach the younger women, children, etc). There are obviously different context of teaching. I teach my children things, by the also have actual "teachers" at school, etc. The roles of official church office of elder / deacon are laid out. And deacon is also used as simply a "servant" sometimes.
People like to conflate the 2 but the official offices of the church are clearly given specific requirements. While I might be older (and elder) to someone younger, does not mean I am an "Elder" in the official office of Elder sense.
Just like an apostle is a sent one, a missionary. But not an Apostle, as in the office of Apostle given to the 12 to write new revelation from God.
Just as a prophet proclaims God's word. If a person gets up in front of a City Council and declares what God's word says to them in relation to their duty to rule righteously, they are speaking prophetically to that Council. That doesn't mean they are giving new revelation from God, as the OT prophets were. They are proclaiming God's word, from his previously disclosed revelation. It's still prophecy, but not in the sense that they are disclosing new revelation from God (which ceased with the closing of the canon of scripture).
Yes, I agree. There are distinctions between these positions; let alone for times and places when younger women are to be taught by "elder" women. Thankfully the requirements for office are made clear for us via the Scriptures.
Nope. No women. Pastors. Can’t be the husband of one wife. Other passages are twisted out of context and someone being a witness is not a call to the pastorate.
A woman will find a way to do what she wants. She only liatens to her desires and no one else.
Unlike men, who as a group never follow their own desires or wants, and live perfect lives of selflessness modeled after God’s law?
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; aho can know it?
See also Eccles 9:3, Matt 15:19, Gensis 6:5 and Genesis 8:21
Should woman cover their heads in church still then?
Yes. That practice has never disappeared from churches all over the world and its disappearance from Western churches is actually pretty recent in church history.
...because the hair instead of a covering hath been given to her...
In your own selves judge ye; is it seemly for a woman uncovered to pray to God? doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man indeed have long hair, a dishonour it is to him? and a woman, if she have long hair, a glory it is to her, because the hair instead of a covering hath been given to her;...
-Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
For her hair is given to her as a covering.
Does even nature itself not teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her as a covering.
-NASB
A woman's long hair is the 'covering'.
If a fabric covering is actually required,
then all references to hair are
totally irrelevant to the subject.
It only can make sense if the
long hair of a woman is the 'covering'.
She should be covered, with her long hair.
To have short hair, like a man, means that
she is basically bald. Therefore uncovered.
__________________________________________
If a woman needs to touch and pick up something physical, before
acceptable communication with deity can happen, that would make
the fabric covering a talisman. Though the woman would not believe
she is using a talisman.
talisman (basic definition)- a piece of clothing (or other physical object) that is
believed to have spiritual (or magical) properties. The object will align
with your intention for its use. Every time a woman looks at a fabric head
covering, her mind will recall the original intention of its use,
until wearing it becomes a necessary ritual.
If no cloth head covering is in view than why are men told not to cover their heads at church at the beginning of the chapter?
ruclips.net/video/JiWTvH3dAYo/видео.html
DEI Kills 😓
Thank you. So you acknowledge women sharing their experiences. Where should they do that? What is wrong with them sharing from the pulpit? So do you have a location problem?
Readers are advised to remember that demons are liars. Not everything that
Boltglue says should be assumed to be true, even from his own perspective.
-S. Szpak
Excerpt from a Boltglue Email, below:
Nightowl, my dear brother
Encourage legalism. Our servants, the lawyers, were condemned by the Liar's son
harshly in the New Words:
But He said, “Woe to you lawyers as well! For you load people with burdens
that are hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens
with one of your fingers.
And even more:
Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge;
you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering.”
The letter of the law kills, so let it do its job. Even the New Words say:
But we know that the law is good,...
So teach legalism. Teach that whatever a female speaks indoors
has more weight than if she speaks it outdoors.
Make sure "the pulpit" is a mystical place indoors,
in their phony religion. Call it a 'sanctuary', whatever that is. If a female does
speak from "the pulpit" be sure all in attendance know that she is only being
ALLOWED TO SPEAK BECAUSE A MALE ALLOWED IT.
It is still terrible, but at least it's something.
-your just and older brother Boltglue