Samurai Combatives | Sitting down in Iaido
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- Опубликовано: 13 июл 2023
- In this video Antony Cummins talks about how samurai maybe did not sit with their long swords in their belts yet in Iaido there are ample katas to show this type of fighting. The answer is unclear but the question remains.
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Hi Antony, another very thought provoking video mate. Great question.I shared my thoughts on this subject in one of your previous videos. Have a great weekend. Everytime I watch one of of your discussions on swordsmanship, I pick one up and start training.
In WW2 they made new kata for war and They immediately changed it to a standing kata.
Can you email me more info about the changes to kenjutsu from world war two
Seiza was not a common sitting position for men in pre-Edo Japan. It was (almost always) limited to very formal occasions for men. In the Edo Period, there was a growth of the use of seiza by both sexes, but other sitting styles were also frequently used. It was not until the Meiji Period that seiza began to be promoted as THE standard and traditional way of sitting across both sexes and all classes.
Agreed. Getting this out of peoples heads is difficult
It's fine when folks are honest about it, like doing seiza kata limited their movements so things would get easier when they move on to actual standing kata. Seiza training with a long sword on the hips is a training method. In modern day, if you want to respect tradition, fine, but if you want to re create the combative side of historical swordsmanship, you will have to apply the "you fight how you train" mindset, and that means accepting seiza training is obsolete and there are way better ways to practice attack and defend with sword drawing.
People who argued about it's being a historical combative stance have no other than 1 picture of a bunch of people kneeling with the sword in on their hips, didn't even show the sword in the obi, and they didn't even wear their daily clothing, and without any context. That's just straight up delusional
Thank you very good video.
A possible answer could be concerning the mechanics of sitting vs standing. Practicing while sitting would be less forgiving because of the lack of mobility in macro and micro movements. Though the katas are different, practicing sitting would complement the ease of movement while standing.
would these kata work with the wakizashi only or if using the katana with the sword on the ground next to you as the starting point, has anyone tried it to your knowledge?
Not really, since the blade length and the handle length of a wakizashi would make sayabiki unnecessary + all the distancing in the kata has to be changed radically, which makes no sense because at that point, just practice with an actual wakizashi and the techniques designed for wakizashi. A katana lying next to you on the other hand makes more sense, more common in history but required different set of deployment methods than in modern iaido
I think if they are sitting it is for wakizashi
@@AntonyCummins Do you have any evidence for that?
I will be sitting down with Yamamoto Sensei and Uehara Soke tonight, in Canada, from Taisha Ryu. I will ask them their thoughts.
Please do
Not especially about sitting, but I had a thought about the "sword schools we see today have been so much ritualized and changed because of peace time" VS "what is really effective realistic war usage". Maybe it's stupid, maybe it's already been looked into, maybe it's not relevant because X or Y, I don't know.
But during the last war, Japanese (officers, at least) still had a sword at their side; obviously it was not their main weapon but it's the same about Sengoku samurai where there was a lot of shooting and spears and stuff. Maybe what was taught with a sword to these officers is easier to find document-wise, and it would probably not bother with ceremony and old situations scenarios but rather focus on battleground efficiency? I get it would not describe late Sengoku/early Edo reality, but it could help shed a "what's realistic and what's not" light on the old manuscripts you have and on the teachings of today's koryū schools?
A lot of research to be done
So the kobuto style i study, we actually learn alot of techniques for fighting in armor. And sonhow to hop up or defend yourself quickly from a resting position
Its just for every posible situation.
Not to mention, imagine having a meeting with your enemy for terms, youd meet in a tented off area. And this is all possible.
And theres a picture of of a shogun cross legged with his sword oushed behind his back i believe.
It might be a way for them to stay alert during peace time.
Maybe the reason they we're training this way is because something happened were they had to fight sitting down & it spread across the country. Also this could be the reason why they started or came up with the tradition of surrendering their katanas when entering a house.
I don't really remember but I've seen somewhere that in Katori Shinto Ryu sitting kata script is not about conversation but being like on a mission or something. I mean sitting on the ground or in grass looking for something or listening while gather information. Sitting position is different as well!
Source: I don't remember really, it could be a dream while I was sleeping. 😅
That would work but it would not be from seiza
Drawing while sitting, drawing while lying down sleeping, drawing while running, drawing while crouched, drawing while jumping. All could have had their purpose. Just because you can't find it in history doesn't mean it wasn't functional. Why sleep with swords? So you could use them if someone snuck upon you. Why sitting? Maybe a negotiation gone bad
The problem is we do find it in history but just done the wrong way.
Love watching your videos, (even you ruined my childhood with regards to the ninja). LOL. I love learning the actual history of the samurai and ninja.
Glad you like them!
But Anthony, Why you talking about sitting down. They would fight standing up.
Might be a case of what samurai did vs what the etiquette dictated. In reality, there would be many times I would think were no one is relinquishing arms, regardless of the written ideal. Intelligence gathering from towns people, inter clan negotiations and conflict resolution. Look at Afghanistan, no one is disarming when sitting down talking to village elders etc. This could be a hostile negotiation, but leave you weapons at the door, I think not.
True, but most people, at least in modern times, would not develop an entire training regimen based around a very specific scenario that they may not ever find themselves in, i.e. a hostile negotiation, which would have been an extremely unlikely scenario to find oneself in during the middle of the Edo period when the practice of drawing the long sword from seiza first appeared. Removing the long sword from the belt when sitting in any fashion was the common practice/etiquette and is also much more practical and comfortable than trying to sit with it still thrust through the obi. A more realistic version of deploying the katana from seiza would be while it is laying on the ground to one's immediate left with the cutting edge facing away from them. Placing the sword on your right side so that it could not be immediately drawn with the right hand (at least not in the conventional way) and with the cutting edge facing you showed trust and respect for a superior, while keeping it on the left side would have allowed for quicker deployment if the security of a situation was unknown. Not to mention the samurai still would have had his wakizashi on him at all times, so he never would have been completely unarmed and helpless.
Iai is the warriors from of meditation. Also, it is to train to fight from a low position in a dark room. This was done pre Edo.
Second
I just talked to a Japanese swordsmanship master, and he said your idea that iaido doesn't use wakizashi is wrong. Some schools use it. You can even see them easily on youtube. Why is this question about sitting down even being asked when its already been answered, mate?
There are so many schools who do not. In fact most do not so I do not think you have either understood my question correctly or you have asked him incorrectly. The video question is why train with katana from seiza when samurai took them off for sitting down. You have asked him about Saki ash I out of context. Which the video again.
@@AntonyCummins "why train with katana from seiza when samurai took them off for sitting down"
They didn't. That's why.
And none of our katas in my ryuha assume youre siting with someone. The katas are if you were siting and someone can runing to cut you down.
Or if your walking and attacked. Alot of those. Like being led, and followed and cutting both men. Cutting a guy who goes to walk past you and draws.
Things like that.
I think youre focusing on the IaiDO schools. And not iaijutsu/kenjutsu
lol. Come on now mate...
What do you mean?
You realize there are period tapestries showing samurai wearing long sword and sitting seiza? In particular, retainers lining the hallway up to their lord. Not rare at all. Also, Seitokai has the original scrolls for MJER - seiza no bu was never a standing set. In fact, the kihon standing set wasn't invented until the 20th century, although there are advanced standing sets.
Utter rubbish. You have neither surveyed appropriate period art and your analysis of the art you did display was faulty. You should not talk about Japanese sword history or culture.
So this is what the video is asking for. Please email all original documentation to me with images of tapestries antonycummins@yahoo.Co.uk