@@lovingsingleton1873 I don’t understand what marriage has to do with this but no, I think you misunderstood, not all actions are sinners but are sinners from conception aka sinners from birth aka only forgiven by god
As a bisexual myself i am tired of this conversation. I don't live a homosexual lifestyle and i reject my so thoughts. The difference between me and lgbt affirming people is that i accept the bible for what it is and i know that carrying on that path is as much a sin as others so i reject it. Lgbt folks are trying to sculpt their "interpretation" so it fits the sin they love too much to get rid off it. I'd rather turn my back on a community than God.
@@ozziewhite4296 i've had boyfriends and had, God forgive me, s***** interactions with a men. Even with the mother of my children, love of my life besides Jesus Christ, that i'm with now, we used to talk about it from time to time. But when i found Jesus, i decided that it's all gone and behind me and we don't mention it anymore. My inclinations are now towards God. Amen brother and God bless you ❤🙏
I wouldn't even call this a debate as much as a guided interview since zoomer spoke very little and only asked questions versus providing responses (for the most part)
@@monteirolobato6830Jesus. If you truly are in Christ, the Holy Spirit tells you what needs to change. Our goal is to be like Christ. Every Christian, regardless of their sin, must constantly examine themselves and bring themselves before God to have their sin revealed to them. When you put yourself in God’s hands and faithfully read His word and interact with other faithful Christians, you will clearly see the way you need to go. Putting our trust in ourselves and our (very) fallible judgment can only end poorly.
Partially true. He tells us to love others as ourselves (i.e. love others as we love ourselves). There are a lot of people who hate themselves. How can they possibly love others effectively if they don't understand how to love themselves first?
I am surprised by how respectful this conversation was for vicious it could have been. I think having discussions with the kind of mindset of politeness in mind is going to make productive dialogue like this much more possible.
This wasn't much of a conversation but an interview, though. But considering how the position of the LGBTQ affirming person here deviates from the Gospel, if this were a debate or a conversation, it would merit some serious exchange. There is no real understanding of sin or Salvation, and a questionable view of Jesus & His teaching, and an inconsistent view of the Scripture where he appeals to the Bible only when it serves his argument. (i.e. he does not recognize the power dynamic between a man and a woman in the OT marriages, how some men married concubines because they were in power, but would happily use it when it serves his argument for polygamous identity. While politeness is important and it has served to bring forth clarity the positions of pastors like him, if a real exchange were to happen when it pertains to the center of the Christian salvation, that politeness can die.
As far as time talking, this was ~95/5 the progressive preaching his secular values at RZ. He also in so many words called RZ and Christians 'bigots' 32:28 and 'violent' 36:43for believing the bible. He said that believing the bible is 'hell on earth' due to bigotry of those who believe it 32:28. You have to sort of listen to the undertone/remarks to catch these little jabs.....He also lies and says that God blesses multiple wives in the bible 45:32 (this is not true, there are some figures in the bible that had multiple wives but it wasn't prescribed by God....it is just a fact of what that human chose to do....often with negative repurcussions).
@@jessefoutz597 woefully insufficient. This "pastor" is so shallow in Christianity and in reality is just a modern progressive liberal who decided to say he believes in Jesus. He very clearly places his own opinions in higher regard to the ultimate moral authority of God. His version of Christianity is "we should all love each other ad do everything we can to feel good about ourselves, even if it means openly accepting sin. He condoned homosexuality, he condoned adultery, he denied the bible being the inerrant word of God, etc, etc.
Many fruits of The Spirit on display by Redeemed Zoomer here, particularly forbearance and self-control - all without compromising on the truth of God’s word. God bless you, brother.
Well, except he obviously doesn't follow the teachings and commands of Jesus. He is not a Christian. He is "Christian" who follows human rules. Read what I wrote to him. It's long. So, I won't repeat it here.
Here's a contradiction: Mr Perry said at the beginning of the talk (2:38) that he believed 'God knew me as he knit me in the womb' yet later on affirmed that fetus' aren't humans and thus abortion is permissible.
@@jimluebke3869 yes, but only because leftist orthodoxy is "lie and make stuff up, what matters is sounding good not telling the truth" he can only actually believe one of those positions. either he was a person in the womb, or he wasn't. the other is a lie to push his agenda.
that also makes me think of trans people (assuming they use that "knit in the womb" argument), why would God make you gender A if He knew you wanted to "change" it to gender B?
Mathew 22: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' 1 Corinthians 13: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not Love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not Love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not Love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, Love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: Faith, Hope and Love. _But the greatest of these is Love._
Well, the part of you that is Original Sin is like that. He is rejecting God's grace and Christ's sacrifice as the answer to sin, instead preferring to invent a way to change the rules.
Zoomers last comment about sin was so satisfying, you could just sense it brewing for the whole interview, and he still made his point with class. Amazing effort from his side.
@@ethannoble8564 "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3
@@JimLarryDanHim being queer and part of the LGBTQ movement. Thus if the Bible says that homosexual sex is wrong then he either cannot be queer or he cannot be an honest pastor, so he has to give up one.
@@adriangutierrez441Inerrant means “without error” so basically he was asking if he thought the Bible was the divinely inspired work of God. If you don’t believe that, then you’re just arguing your personal opinion on philosophy.
The Bible is partially inerrant. Inerrant on matters of doctrine and salvation but may err on more minor details (such as minor mistakes about locations or people, or some small inconsistencies) I think this is a fair middle ground between fundies and liberal modernists
Rev. Benjamin Perry says that God made the core part of him that is attracted to men, which we call sinful, just as he created the part of heterosexual men that is attracted to women. As a man married for 16 years, I still struggle with the sinful part of me that is attracted to women who are NOT my wife. That is a core part of me. And that is SINFUL. God wants YOU to reject your sin within yourself, whatever part of your core it may be, so that you may be transformed by the blood of Christ.
@@7chicken I am, trying to every day, with God's help. The difference here is that I fight against it, reject it, and confess that it is sin. Rev. Perry is defending and trying to justify his.
There are worse sins than LUST. Even those that attain freedom from it then often have pride(ego). Pride that is justified, encouraged and celebrated by themselves and those around them. But I feel your pain! 😭🙏
I don’t intend to be rude, however, Perry is no Christian. Being a Christian is seeking gods grace even after sinning, however, encouraging sin is of the devil.
I dont think it's not rude to call someone out on the truth of who they are - and the truth is that without Jesus' resurrection, without the commitment to scripture and God's calling to follow him, we cannot be Christian
Denial of sin is worse, I’d argue. And both these young men are guilty of that. Lust is not the only sin. But go ahead and get your stones ready if you think so much of yourself to even entertain such a prideful thought.
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." (Matt 7:1-2) "For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:7) "Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man-you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself-that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed." (Romans 2:1-5)
I think he has just made an error, I do not think the gay thing disqualifies him, he probably genuinely believes it, what is more concerning is that he said he believed Ισούς physically rose from the dead because it is more powerful. EDIT: To clarify, I believe Ισούς physically rose from the dead, but because I have evidence to support it, I was criticising his reasoning.
Being a Christian is being a follower of Jesus. When you don't follow His teachings and commands, you aren't a Christian. Read what I wrote to Zoomer. He is NOT a Christian.
"His two proudest achievements are skydiving with his grandmother and winning first prize in his seminary drag show." I think this shows some humor. His 'real' achievements are certainly more traditional.
“I already know that every part of me is sinful, because that is what the Bible tells me. There is not a single part of me that does not need to be corrected with the word of God and with the Spirit of Christ every single day.” 🔥
@@teehee4096 Do I believe that I shouldn't f*ck every woman I'm attracted to? Of course, and it's Christianity that teaches me that, not anything of this world or in myself.
19:40 YIKES is all I can say...the entirety of Christianity hinges on the Resurrection. If the Resurrection didn't happen, then all of this is a house of cards.
That's an interesting statement. We are taught that is is by Christ's suffering and death that we are forgiven (or can be). Normative Christianity also holds that it is His resurrection that promises us heaven. I accept this mystery, but I do not limit the power of the Father's grace or power. Many believe that all will be saved. (I not entirely sure what that means, frankly.)
19:31 -- lgbtq advocate reveals he does not believe the resurrection is essential to the Christian faith, while Redeemed Zoomer displays a supernatural ability to not interrupt but to keep asking more questions. Well done, brother. Well done!
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." (Matt 7:1-2) "For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:7) "Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man-you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself-that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed." (Romans 2:1-5)
WARNING: Sensitive content discussed in this comment. Catholic take here. Rev. Perry brings up the possibility that the whole discussion with the lesbian women isn't about women wanting homosexual relationships but about unnatural sexual acts closed to the possibility of procreation. But don't all homosexual acts fit under this category? They're all specifically closed off to the possibility of procreation and all unnatural. He literally says the problem here is anal sex, not gay sex. And that might be all fine and well talking about women, but what about gay men? For two gay men to have sex, we must be talking about anal sex, oral sex, or something along those lines. It seems to me, either way you have to rule out gay sex.
liberal and progressive theologians are rarely logically consistent or as smart as they imagine themselves to be. this trained, ordained minister just brung up the ignorant atheist "mixed fabrics" argument; who trained this guy?
We follow Christ, he does not follow us. I think anyone who cries "Why me" does not understand the assignment we have been tasked with as creatures of God. Being humble and becoming a better person starts with putting what YOU want aside. We are all sinners and perfectly imperfect. But we must strive to be better in everything that we do. I love what you are trying to do Zoomer. Coming together again is key if we are going to stand against Evil. Glory to The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. Amen.
@@monteirolobato6830putting what you want aside and putting what God wants in the forefront, and the scripture makes it clear where God stands on marriage
I cry "Why me", just not the way he does. "Why me? Why was I offered such an honor? Why was I offered the blood of God Himself for my rotten sins? Who am I to gain such glory?" And I hear in response, "Because I love you, because I chose you."
1:07:48 What a beautiful gospel-centered answer. When the world's remedy is "Acceptance", the Bible preaches "Repentance". Jesus welcomed sinners, not to affirm their sinfulness, but to set them free from it's bondage.
The story of Jesus doesn't make sense because god could just offer forgiveness for the sins he whimsically declared. Besides each sin occurs as planned by him.
@@jonatand2045 we do not believe the divine positive law is arbitrary, we believe it is built into the universe on a level deeper than material. your body is more arbitrary and transient than the bones of the world, which are righteousness, and holiness.
@@jonatand2045 Looking at the material consequences of sins (AIDS, etc), do you really think they were "whimsically declared"? You really haven't given much thought to your ideas. Or are they just the ideas of others you're parroting?
He's a "pastor," and he references old ceremonial regulations being no longer relevant as his resoning for why homosexuality is acceptable? That's like entry-level Reddit atheist tripe.
Very scary, if the situation in America is that pastors that think that Jesus was basically a socialist and hippy as the common Hollywood view are allowed to get and keep their role.
Abraham "was told" to sleep with Hagar, but by whom? Not by God, by Sarah, who disbelieved God's promise. In the end, it was wrong, and that is a symbol for unbelief in the New Testament.
@@DiNY-u9k nothing in your comment addresses what I wrote. Unless you think Sarah was a man ? ... If you're going to reply to my comment, actually reply to what I'm writing, please; otherwise, don't bother. Write your own comment, which you obviously did, and leave my comment alone unless you want to engage with it.
@@christophekeating21 It is the fact that man got things wrong. The only perfect person in the Bible is Jesus but most people just ignore what He had to say.
Including tribalism, which he calls something innate to a person yet still considers a sin. It seems something is only a sin when it goes against progressive beliefs.
@isacnascimento897 an instinct to violence is fundamental to most people, it's just that we invest a lot of time and energy training it out of people when they're children, then use the law to restrain those impulses and punish those who can't or won't be restrained.
@@MossW268 Congratulations, you compared psychopathy with attraction to the same sex. That's what happens when you take an ancient book that contradicts science and reason too seriously.
Jesus didn't say believe in yourself! Jesus didn't say follow your heart! Jesus didn't say live your truth!!! He said believe in me. He said follow me. He said "I am the truth"!!!
This! The inherent dignity and worth of all persons made in imago Dei was not a minority position in the Body of Christ. This is what made Christianity a driving force in the abolition of slavery twice in human history: during the decline of the Roman Empire and then the abolitionists of the 18th and 19th centuries.
The issue is here though however is that some popes promoted slavery of non-christians as did European monarchs in the Early Middle Ages as a lot of early Christians promoted the abolition of slavery among Christians only until St. Augustine and St. Gregory of Nyssa I believe came along and said all slavery is evil and sinful right?
2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves TEACHERS to suit their OWN passions.
Ben Perry spent his entire time talking about himself, things that were pleasing to him, and pleasures of the earth. I don’t think he spent a single moment talking about what he or his “congregation” could or should be doing that were pleasing to God. That’s an interesting position for a minister…
@@HalfEvilTripl3 If you think anyone who effectively says, "Do as you will" is God (or loving) you're absolutely on the wrong track. Whom the Lord loves, He chastises.
@@jimluebke3869He chastises those he "loves." Sounds like an abusive narcissistic brat. I'd rather burn forever, or die a second death than worship such an evil being.
It's interesting that he says you cannot love someone unless you affirm everything about them. Meanwhile, Jesus says to deny yourself and follow him only.
@@_draxuz3641 I said declared. As in god declared that this or that is sin according to his subjective preferences. That's why your portrayal of god is flawed. Also god created sin by designing all variables that guarantee each and evey sin.
@@reaganlecroy7773 You missed the part where he could offer redemption with a snap instead of a messianic drama. I also proved god designs each sin, as every outcome is the inevitable result of the variables of the design.
@@ItsThatGuy1989 I can fully explain why this is true, their arguments on their reading of the bible is being refuted. So when they come with scripture, they have no ground, cause theology doesnt have facts to argue for it. They are beyond it and i think that says enough.
He said he doesn't think that the baby is human because it is inside of the womb and unviable outside of it, but in the beginning he cited how the verse in Psalm 139 about how God saw him in the womb of his mother before he was born helped him reach the conclusion that his "queer" identity was valid in the eyes of God. May God help him.
My question to all of this, and I am sorry you happened to be chosen at random, is what do you then think gay people should do? Is priesthood the only acceptable option?
@@agatofelin722 Priesthood (along with teaching or medicine) are absolutely unacceptable options for people with these particular temptations. What we're fighting right now is an epidemic of grooming -- because these people can't reproduce, they recruit, and because they don't respect boundaries, categories, or rules, there isn't any real reason they would stay away from young people (including children). The solution? Resist whatever temptation is put in front of you. All unmarried heterosexual men in a congregation (some of whom will never marry) are expected to _not_ sleep with any of the women there, and vice versa. So, no, there's nothing unique about homosexuality as a sin. And yes, celibacy is what is expected of _everyone_ outside of marriage, and yes, marriage is between one man and one woman for life.
@@agatofelin722 Resisting temptation -- in this case, celibacy -- is the only acceptable option, yes. Just like for other sins. There is nothing unique or special about homosexuality as a sin.
@@agatofelin722 My note to whomever is suppressing these comments -- you can't silence the truth. All you are doing is convincing people who know the truth, just how drastic the necessary actions are going to be, to make sure the truth gets a fair hearing. RUclips, you have been warned. Stop suppressing speech.
45:38 Abraham was definitely not told to impregnate hagar, it's pretty clear that that was an action from lack of faith that Sarah would bear him a child, and laying with Hagar led to conflict with his wife, even though it was her idea.
I love these kinds of conversations. Civil discussions with people we disagree with an topics that are divisive is so, so valuable. It helps with cognitive hygiene, and actively maintaining (not just "holding") our beliefs.
@jaema8281 that is unfair to lump all people of one religion together like that, Islam is a religion of peace as most religions are. Every faith has people who claim to be part of it who don't follow doctrine.
@@blocksandbooks273 I really want to agree, I have Muslim family and friends and I love them, but it's impossible to ignore the global trends of Islam. Their extremism rate is many times greater than every other religion combined, their 'homeland' countries have the most oppressive laws (relative to the West), and across the West they are trying to install Sharia law I know this does not represent all of them, but these trends become more distinct with each passing day
I thought he seems like a genuine Christian despite being LGBTQ affirming in the first couple of minutes, but it started to be clear that he's missing the overall most important message of Christianity, and pretty much putting in whatever he feels like he wants to believe.
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." (Matt 7:1-2) "For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:7) "Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man-you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself-that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed." (Romans 2:1-5)
7:38 Less than ten minutes in, and I'm already understanding that this guy hears what he wants to hear. If Paul was only rebuking the fact that the masters were raping the slaves, then why did he specifically point out that both parties are male?
thats simply just not a defeater to the position lol him pointing out more details only indicates hes speaking about a certain type of situation that he might have witnessed or been made aware of
@VuahdjahfnFjakxpgmanc you do realize they're up to interpretation right? its a matter of you providing a case as to why your interpretation of the text is the correct one lol
Yep. I was thinking about the debate with James White, Jeff Durbin, and Brandon (??). The fact that Benjamin’s “Christianity” contradicts what 99.9% of all Christendom has taught for 2 millennia became apparent much faster because Redeemed Zoomer just let him speak.
@@marvalice3455 A lie written in stone is still a lie. Evolution is pretty solid by now, with plenty of supporting evidence. Or do you think gid left fossils to trick us?
I find it telling he didn't even try to use the typical translation arguments that affirming Christians try to use. He either isn't aware of those arguments, false as they are or outright realizing he's been lied to.
A thought provoking discussion. What I find a bit inconsistent is that at one point, Perry states quite clearly that homosexuality as understood today is not a category that existed back in biblical times. And yet, this relatively new category is something he claims to be an essential part of his (and others') humanity and further is something that God and Christians must affirm. Even among some LGBT individuals, the idea that homosexuality is a fixed and 'real' category is being questioned with newer paradigms like sexuality being on a spectrum, pansexuality, etc. Just as we must critically examine the labels and terms used in the biblical times, I think we need to use the same critical lens when looking at contemporary uses.
@@laisphinto6372 Agreed. When they can't corrupt the law, they try to corrupt the language. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet; people having same-s*x carnal relations is a sin, whatever you call it. There's a story that goes: At the pearly gate, St. Peter confronts a man about his adultery. "Do you repent of this sin?" "Well sir, I was wearing a [sheepgut] condom, so I wasn't actually touching the woman, so it wasn't adultery." "In that case, I have to ask you: do you repent of buggering a dead sheep?"
@@annat2361 It's complicated, to put it mildly. Earlier this year she had a psychotic break that lasted a week. She saw and heard abusive things from me (which, to be clear, I did not do or say). She got meds for a while and it was wonderful again. She doesn't trust me because she believes I'm not telling her the truth about that week. She has told me that she loves me more than she's ever loved anyone and she just wants to come home; followed by her begging me to just be honest with her. No one in her family will help her, and I can do nothing but watch the love of my life endure torment from a distance. I pray several times a day for five to ten minutes. It's agonizing for me but I know it's worse for her. God please help us!
The thing is, as a straight christian I have to deny myself certain worldly pleasures to please God, and follow Chirst. I do not sleep with a hot woman I meet just because she is horny and willing. I have to take things slow, establish a connection and if she is someone who can partner up with as a wife and we can come together under God as one in marriage then it is okay to then have relations with her. Being gay and partaking in the acts is just as wrong as if I would hook up with a hot woman, just being she is there and willing. Most LGBT people seem to be coming at it all from a place of lust, and a love for worldly desires, and not from a stand point of what does God want for me. They seem to be pushing to have us except their brand of sinful lusts, which is no worse nor better than the lust's most the modern hook up culture gives into. It just comes off as I want to have fun, and live for this world, and not as much I want to live for God, and help spread Gods world and teachings to make this world more Christ like. It becomes something more self serving, grounded in lust, pride, and other worldly sins.
FACTS, this is the TRUTH and many will come after you saying "you shouldn't be judging people......." but you're simply rebuking sinful behavior, and preaching TRUTH. TRUTH hurts sometimes.
@@pao2529we’re called to remove the log from our eye before removing the speck in our brothers. So yeah, he’s judging as a non-hypocrite, as Jesus commanded.
@@pao2529yet after that incident Jesus said John 8:9-11 ESV [9] But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. [10] Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” [11] She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” He said sin no more. We are to love one another, but despise their sin. We all have sinned, thus we cannot throw a stone at one another, but that does not mean we should live in sin. Don't use that verse as an excuse for sinful behavior.
So Benjamin’s position is basically: The Bible is correct when it affirms my personal views on sexuality and morals, but is incorrect where it does not affirm them. That sounds like some very rocky ground that simply creates a god in our own image.
Best summed up by "I believe my job as a minister is to affirm and teach what I believe about God." No. Your job as a minister is to affirm and teach what GOD TEACHES about God.
@@colinsmith1495 Their job is not clearly to follow evidence and logic to where they lead. I mean just evolution alone proves the bible is very flawed.
Right? He kind of acted like the only prohibition of homosexuality was "expired" Levitical law, but Romans also condemns this, and other places too. Yet if you look over the entire Bible, it seems almost as if there is a point being made that same-sex relationships are sinful specifically. If they were permissible in any way, it would be alluded to or stated in the Bible. But that doesn't matter if you throw out inerrancy I guess
@@Awaken_To_0 So it's only picking and choosing in a good way when it agrees with his, and clearly your morality but when *we* "pick and choose" it's bad. Ok dude you missed the point of my statement
@@BoondockBrony No, I got your point. I wonder if you got mine though, since you seemed to just answer a different question nobody asked? I'll try again: "Is he wrong to say that people on both sides of this debate are picking and choosing?" Be honest, like God calls you to be, and answer. Don't dodge or divert.
i wish i could've heard more of what zoomer had to say. he didnt once interrupt perry, but it felt like perry interrupted zoomer just about every time he started speaking. nonetheless, this conversation was much more respectful on both sides than i was expecting; props to you both
He seems like a really nice guy but oof his explanations were all over the place. edit: I just wanna say also though that even though I disagree, I believe God loves him and he is a human being who we should treat with dignity and respect! He stayed very respectful in this conversation even when he clearly was a little ruffled, and I respect that as well!
Fortunately, we are saved from it by Christ's sacrifice. Not by our own efforts ("mental gymnastics") claiming the rules are something other than they are.
Sir, we dont AFFIRM our sinful nature! We battle against it. We fight. I'm not suggesting I'm above anyone, I'm suggesting that we ALL have sin problems, BUT the answer is not pretending our sinful ways are good.
So... At 18:55 he says that to be a christian you need to believe in some core beliefs, like the divinity of Jesus and His physical resurrection, but seconds later he is already saying that not believing in that does not equate to someone not beeing a christian. When we try to affirm everything we end up like this, in constant contradiction.
Im pretty sure if you believed Jesus died on the cross for your sins and you worship him you get to call yourself a Christian. It's a very inclusive religion, you could even be gay and be a Christian if you want clearly.
@@spreadwuvokay If that's your opinion on the matter, although I don't agree, my point is not to confront your view. I was pointing out the errors in Benjamin Perry views. He said what he said, not you.
@@spreadwuvokay He is asked what defines a christian, what makes you a christian, and he answers with what I said in my first comment. As he is answering he contradicts himself. If you ask me what makes me portuguese and I answer "Having portuguese nationality" and seconds later I say "Not having portuguese nationality does not equate to you not beeing portuguese" that is a contradiction. Is saying A is equal to not A. If you don't think he contradicted himself I'm honestly not going to discuss that. Have a good day, and God bless you.
1. Clicks video 2. Sees "he/they" This pastor has already affirmed that he is dedicated to destroying the blessed and holy distinctions that our Creator God uses to hold us together. He's already fallen to Gnostic heresy. This man rejects the gospel as given by Jesus Christ and substitutes it with his own, in which he steals the goodness of the Father and attributes it to himself. What this "pastor" is doing is a great evil, and I pray that he repents.
It's not that he is completely evil. It's that his beliefs are, and he's been corrupted by them. The worldview is evil and leads him to do evil and spread evil. Jesus says to love your enemies, not "you have no enemies." This pastor is corrupt and spreading evil and must be ideologically fought. We are in a spiritual war. Get your head on straight.
I have many gay friends. While I don’t approve of their lifestyles, I won’t shun them, because I know how dead we all are in sin. Rev Perry is a real one for agreeing to the debate. God bless.
@@stegosandrosos1291 And why is that, sweetie? Because your magic book of ancient stories told you that gay people are evil supervillains who are going to be tortured for all eternity for no reason other than the fact your god is objectively a hateful narcissistic asshole not worth worshipping? Cool story, bro! Do you also believe Harry Potter? EXPECTO PATRONUM!
I feel like shunning is different than discussing and listening. Jesus didn’t shun, he listened, gave compassion, pointed out their sin and told them to sin no more.
@stegosandrosos1291 I’m going to stay friends with them. If all the good Christians ran away from them, what would they think of Christianity? I love them in spite of their sins. I’d do them a disservice to leave them.
I think though, that people in the church who do have same sex-attraction should be able to talk about it openly. To share their struggles and how God has met them in that, and to not be shamed or silenced, or told to hide it unless God frees them from it. They should not be told to live in it, but they should be allowed to be open about those struggles and boast in God's grace for them. When we are weak, He is strong. Having people who are loved and supported by their church while being open about their orientation will help both new christians who also struggle with same-sex attraction realize they can come to God, and give them hope, as well as show children who realize they also have this struggles that they are not going to have to leave their church or have no one to help them. I am not sure if using LGBT+ identity terms is wrong, because on one hand it makes ones identity their sexual orientation, not their status as a child of God. But on the other hand, it is a clear way to talk about the issue that people who want to come to the faith can understand.
Only if we apply this to all sin. For example, a man who is only attracted to married women speak openly about this and share his struggles and have all the married guys in his group thrilled to help him deal with his sinful desires. Which we don’t do, because same sex sin (wrongly) gets its own category. Also, we should be ashamed of our sinful desires. We should also live in the forgiveness the Lord gives us when we repent and turn away from them, but the Scripture doesn’t say do not be ashamed of your sin. The opposite.
I absolutely agree with you. Even though I believe that this person is willfully refusing the obvious commands of scripture people in the LGBTQ movement should be able to be open about their struggles
I agree. I've been to many churches where I feel I cannot be open with my struggle with homosexuality for that reason. I believe and am a believer and my struggle with same sex attraction is what I feel my biggest barrier to Christ. I simply cannot change who I'm attracted to and still feel that it's wrong for me to be homosexual. But I also feel it can't be possible that I'm destined to force myself to have no attraction to males and deal with having no marriage at home. I pray I'll find a church where I can be open and progress with these issues one day.
It's the same thing as being an adulterer, or having a pornography addiction, or being a kleptomaniac, or being an arsonist. Yeah sure say you struggle with the desires but don't try to change the gospel to be pro sin.
@@PenMom9 Oh yes! I wasn’t saying do not be ashamed of your sin. But do not let fear shame you from sharing how God’s Grace has moved in your life. And this applies to all sin. I know Protestants don’t really like it (I am Protestant) but confessing our sins to other believers is a way God has given us to help us come to freedom. We are not meant to struggle alone. Now, I don’t think this means we should all go up onstage and start listing off our sins, by no means. But church should not be a place where we feel we have no true brothers in Christ to confide in and get accountability from
Ah yes, because being blatantly homophobic and telling people in this comment section to remain permanently celibate against men is totally respectful!
@@analternatemultiverse2063 Totally respectful. He's not homophobic, this word doesn't even make sense. Phobia = irrational fear or aversion to something. I think he loves gay people, that's why he tells them the truth.
@@silviomp I didn't invent the word, chief. Go complain to the dictionary or something. It's just a word people use to describe people who are bigoted against homophobes. Which Redeemed Zoomer objectively is. It's not "the truth" to tell them to hide away their sexuality forever and remain "permanently celibate" against men regardless of their sexual preference. He did this in this comment section, and the vulnerable person he told it to listened to him. A person who "loves" gay people doesn't tell them to actively not be gay for life or you're going to hell.
@@analternatemultiverse2063 "Homophobia" is a recently made up word. Nobody used it until 10 years ago. Dude, if you're straight and you sleep with someone else's spouse, it's a sin and you'll go to hell if you don't repent. If you agree with me, you're an "adulterousphobic". If a grown up man wants to... you know what... with children and you say they're wrong, I'll have to label you a "pedophilephobic". Yes, dude, we all need to fight against our natural fallen inclinations. There's nothing God can't change. The world is upside down, now thieves are encouraged to steal. There are pedophiles saying children have sexual rights. Just because it's consented, it's not a sin anymore? According to this World everything is fine since the other person agrees. Well, I don't agree with you, should I label you a "opinionphobic", a "Christiphobic"? If you want to follow Jesus, you need to deny your desires, all of us have to. And yet we won't be saved by our own merits, Jesus paid our debt. However, those who are in the Spirit don't fulfill the desires of the flesh. If you're a Christian, remember that Jesus called sinners sick and He's the doctor. Dude, if you hate Jesus, no Christian will condemn you for sleeping with your own parents. Redeemed Zoomer is just saying what's in the Bible. I perceive hate in you, you're the one who hates people here. I hope you change for the better. All with you all the best.
To debate with someone over biblical truth when they've already abandoned it in favor of secular truth, or 'non-reality' is a hopeless endavour doomed from the start. You can't convince him of anything when he doesn't believe the bible to be infallible, and especially can't if he's universalist. I appreciate your serious patience RZ. I could never.
While I agree with your broader point, it is never a hopeless endeavor to engage someone in a theological debate in an effort to display the Truth to them. Homosexuals need the Gospel shared to them. They don't have it and they stand dead in their sin. That goes for any unrepentant sinner who has not placed their faith in Christ. Have the hard conversations for the sake of the advancement of the Gospel.
I couldn't either, one of his points for biblical justification of practicing homosexuality was "well even if it was wrong other Christians don't do 'x' either" then proceeds to talk about how "modern" homosexuality is different than it was 2000 years ago. It's truly as clear as day how God feels about homosexuality, as it has been for the past 2 millennia.
@@monteirolobato6830 When we examine Jesus' words in the broader context of His teachings, we know right away that He is not telling us to despise people or hurt them deliberately. This is, after all, the same Jesus Who tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves and, even more, as He loves us. What He means here is that we must choose Him above all else in our lives, even the people closest to us. We must love Him more than we love them even to the point of detaching ourselves from them if we must. We might wonder, then, why Luke chose to render Jesus' Aramaic word and Semitic idiom as the strong word “hate” in the Greek. Matthew did not. He translated the idiom rather than the word (and this helps us understand Luke's version better): “Whoever loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me...” (Matthew 10:37). So why did Luke, inspired by the Holy Spirit, leave the word “hate” in place? Perhaps he could see that people would need a strong message like this in the future. Perhaps he knew that the shock value of the statement would get people thinking and talking. Perhaps he realized that Christians would sometimes face difficult choices and need to hear strong words to help them choose rightly.
Proverbs 26:4-5 - Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.
Benjamin Perry and his ilk are much similar to pharisees. They make many exceptions to God’s law to evade what God plainly calls sin. So he says stuff like “God did not completely condemn homosexuality or adultery, he only condemned exploitative or non-consensual aspects of homosexuality or adultery.” Even though nowhere does God in the New Testament make such an exception.
This guy, a pastor, is really defending abortion, extramarital sex, and denial of the Resurrection. Are seminaries just willing to accept anyone? Are parishes just willing to hire anyone with the degree? We all need to pray for the state of the Church. This is beyond concerning.
The way he says gives me the understanding that he thinks the bible is lacking and its not the word of God and he has is own interpretation instead of reading the text as it is.
Sex outside of God's ordained order is sin. Period. Anything that goes against this hard line is sin and rebellion. May God have mercy on the souls of those who preach a different Gospel.
“I’m a Christian” “Also I think the Bible is good in some ways but only as long as it supports what I believe” “Also the Bible isn’t infallible” “Also christians dont need to affirm the literal resurrection” “Also I don’t think you need to share your faith and see othrrs come to truth” “Also im a universalist so you don’t need to be a Christian” bruh…
Saying that the god is uncaused causer is unlogical and creates another paradox - how was god created if there was no one and nothing to create him. We're back again at the question "where did everything come from", but this time it's even more unlogical because why would there need to be another link? Why is it that god appearing out of thin air and then creating the universe is more logical than the universe itself appearing out of thin air? Why would it need to be more confusing. Just because you can't explain how something started doesn't automatically mean that some god created it. At the start of the chain of events there always needs to be a first action. And that action being universes creation is much more logical than god's creation who then creates a universe. Now suppose there is a god, how would you know that yours is the right one and if the right one is even "discovered". Why would one think that out of all the religions and conspiracies, Christianity is the right one? We as a species need to be always evolving and exploring new things. The moment we stop seeking for answers and start to rely on religion for our answers is the moment objectivity starts dying. Religion is subjective and will forever stay subjective. Science is not, science looks for factual answers that benefit us in the real world. And factually there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's not some kind of a disease and it doesn't need to be and can't be cured. Besides, there's nothing to cure. There's nothing wrong with being part of the LGBTQ, no matter what your religion says.
There is no group of Christians with a "right to sin". If sexual immorality is ok for some, then it's ok for all. There is neither such thing as a law-abiding criminal, nor an LGBTQ-affirming pastor. Wherever he is leading his parishioners, it is not heaven.
This is why the reconquista is important. People will walk into a beautiful Presbyterian church and meet a minister with no intent to save their soul. We can't expect to redeem the culture if we can't even redeem First Presbyterian down the street
I'm a born against Christian who identifies with conservative Baptist tenants, with conviction and Biblical basis, however some beliefs may be partly from upbringing. I break from conservative Presbyterian's on infant baptism, unless it's purely done as a symbol and not as some sort of act that actually redeems a child's soul then I suppose no big deal but not necessary and has more risk of doing harm then good imho, and then on strict Calvinism, viewing humankind's limited free-will and God's sovereignty to both be Biblical truths. I think I could be a "Presbyterian" Christian if I found a church that, along with the core doctrines we already agree on, taught the infallibility of the Scripture and the need to fulfill the great commission : ) I'm encouraged that Redeemed Zoomer is working on this movement! So called Progressive Christianity is wicked and has strayed from the word of God and needs Christians to stand up for the truth despite the odds. Kinda gross how the "Reverend" touted that conservative Christian numbers were dwindling in face of ever increasing numbers of progressive christianity. Makes me think what it must have been like in Israel and Judah right before they were taken into captivity.
...Please don't incite interfaith violence against the pro gay Christians in a bid to spread fundie Christianity across America. It's 2024, first time visitors to Presbyterian churches have read online reviews beforehand.
@@jow5872 Where did you get interfaith violence from what I said? Also someone like this who can barely recite the Apostle’s Creed without his fingers crossed isn’t “inter-faith.” That’s been condemned as heresy long before Fundamentalist Christianity.
@@laiquende9971 "reconquista" on a video about debating pro LGBT Christians. Unless that word somehow denotes peaceful and harmonious disagreement. The historical usage suggests otherwise, and Christians have quite a violent history. I'm an atheist so I cannot comment on your second sentiment. I would be more inclined to judge someone by the content of their character rather than their ability to correctly signal Christian dogwhistles.
“What is consensual and make people happy can’t be sinful” seems to be basically what he is arguing. He really is arguing for hedonism more than anything.
Maybe he has truly faith in Christ but he is making a big mistake in the way he interprets the bible which is evidently biased. I think that if he has truly faith in Christ he will one day end up giving up his sin and stop believing this heresies, which i dont think he truly believes deep in his heart
Every “affirming” person uses the SAME tired and poor arguments. The straw grasping and gymnastics are a testament to the lengths one will go to remain self-deceived.
Saying that the god is uncaused causer is unlogical and creates another paradox - how was god created if there was no one and nothing to create him. We're back again at the question "where did everything come from", but this time it's even more unlogical because why would there need to be another link? Why is it that god appearing out of thin air and then creating the universe is more logical than the universe itself appearing out of thin air? Why would it need to be more confusing. Just because you can't explain how something started doesn't automatically mean that some god created it. At the start of the chain of events there always needs to be a first action. And that action being universes creation is much more logical than god's creation who then creates a universe. Now suppose there is a god, how would you know that yours is the right one and if the right one is even "discovered". Why would one think that out of all the religions and conspiracies, Christianity is the right one? We as a species need to be always evolving and exploring new things. The moment we stop seeking for answers and start to rely on religion for our answers is the moment objectivity starts dying. Religion is subjective and will forever stay subjective. Science is not, science looks for factual answers that benefit us in the real world. And factually there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's not some kind of a disease and it doesn't need to be and can't be cured. Besides, there's nothing to cure. There's nothing wrong with being part of the LGBTQ, no matter what your religion says.
I am a bisexual person. If I determined my own morality, I would absolutely pursue sexual relations with other men. However, not only do I know fully well that it would degrade myself and my dignity, as any sexual immorality degrades us, it would also have the same effect on the person I did it with. Not only that, I am absolutely aware of the reasons for why I have these feelings, and they are completely indistinguishable from why I have struggled with alcohol, for example. It comes from a lack of respect for myself, a lack of respect for God, and a desire to avoid the cross. That is why it is sin. Period. Not that I hold myself in contempt for this - sin is inherited, and Christ will redeem me.
I don't understand why you guys refer to consensual homosexual acts as sexual immoralities. Shouldn't that be reserved for thing like viewing people as sex objects, sexual assault, sexual abuse and bestiality?
@@MetalBansheeX being gay is a sin because we follow what the bible says. Read leviticus 18:22 or 1 corinthians 6:9. it is detestable to the eyes of the lord.
I just think it's impressive that you can have such a high evaluation of your abilities to interpret the Bible and be so certain of the legitimacy of you interpretations when it goes against 2,000 years of scholarship from people who studied the texts in far more depth and in multiple languages across every denomination of Christianity.
this is true, although I would caution you with this logic, otherwise you have no choice but to become Catholic/ Eastern Orthodox but I agree that the guiding principles on sexuality are a tradition sealed in the spirit, and to claim that nothing which we previously believed is true is to say that the spirit itself is errant. The reformation claims to be a...reform back to what was previously believed because of our faith in the power of the spirit working through history.
And those who follow the old scholarship ignore that their beliefs have been debunked by science and reason. Even the beginning of genesis has plants created before the sun. What do you expect from an ancient book? It's just that accepting an indiferent physical universe would hurt to muuch and even be offensive to some.
@@kyrerymmukk7446 I can't imagine watching Christian discussion/debate comtent just so you can shit on their faith lol. Did you blow in from stupid town?
Do you know how many translations the Bible went through and how altered it was over history, long before it was ever standardized in English? And before it was widely available, people relied on the FEELINGS AND INTERPRETATIONS of it from their own religious leaders? Your point is moot.
He's basing his whole theology on Worldly culture not only our Holy God moral standard. Lean not to your own understanding, but in all thy ways acknowledge God, and he will direct your path.
He sat and let this guy babble for the whole seventy minutes with pseudo-intellectual non-biblical nonsense. He listened intently. He didn't interrupt. He listened to this deeply lost person mope and complain about why he believes that God is beholden to him for his immutable nature. RZ spoke his mind only when asked in the final minutes. I am a sinner. There is no part of me that is not beholden to God. That is the gospel. Pure, simple truth. I'm very impressed with his grace.
Many LGBTQ affirming Christians I've met argue that the only sin of Sodom and Gammora was sexual violence. To which I bring up Leviticus 20:13 "You shall not lie with mankind as with women. That is an abomination". Does that make rape fine. If you believe Sodom's sin does not refer to homosexuality, then you believe this one doesn't either.
”“ ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.“ Ezekiel 16:49 NIV The sin of Sodom was sexual immorality in many ways, (“arrogant and overfed” can mean pride and lust), inhospitality, living their way and not God’s way (which applies to a lot). Read Judges 19, where the female concubine was r*ped. Compare these stories to Abraham in Genesis, who was close to God.. you’ll understand that “homosexuality” was not the sin, but living in the world is. Sodom and Gomorrah were densely populated so homosexuality being the one-liner sin does not make sense. The ancient hebrew translation of Jude 1:7 references Sodom “committing ultra prostitution” aka lust, which is universal, but not same-sex attraction.
And they have to ignore the fact that they refused to get it on (very unhospitably) with Lot's daughters, specifically calling for the men. They're making excuses for their sins, instead of repenting and accepting grace for them. And this "pastor" is leading people to do so. Any responsible church organization he is involved with, would defrock him immediately.
@MiataKitten Jude 1:7 "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." This is the sin of Sodom. You are right that they had no concept of homosexuality as people do today, because it is not love, it is defilement and curse to the name of God.
The first 4 minutes I get that from his testimony he didn’t change his lifestyle but changed how he viewed god to have a relationship with him. Pretty shaky foundation
Look I grew up reading the kids comic book picture Bible And I still know who's wrong and who's right before even watching this. I'm praying for you, dude. A lot of talk about love. No talk about repentance. All I gotta say is the good Lord rebukes those that he loves.🙏
Well love is the most important thing in God’s creation. However, a good parent always loves their child, that does not mean a good parent gives their child free license or tells them that all behaviors are valid.
@@nickfoster848 True love is not 'do whatever you want, I want you to be happy'. True love is 'do what is best for you, reject what will harm you, I want you to be RIGHT.'
None are right, it is all fantasy. Jist think about it. The very stories of Adam and Noah are physically impossible, there is evidence something else happened and would result in extinction due to incest.
You should look up Rev. Christopher Yuan. He is gay and is not LGBT affirming. He understands that in his case, to follow Christ means being single in order to strive being holy. Gay people just want religion to change so that they can live how they want to live not how God wants them to live. It's a social construct, not truth. We all have to strive to be obedient to God regardless of the type of sinful desires that we have.
I'm unitarian universalist and a gay man, but I think conservative churches shouldn't be forced to affirm LGBT, since the original manuscripts do have condemnations of LGBT.
I commend this man for having faith and persevering through his own personal struggles as many of us have an ugly cross that we bear. Though I’m not LGBT affirming, I do empathize with how difficult it must be to deal with an attraction that you have little control over. This man is calm, respectful, and you can tell that he is trying to find God.
I noticed that all of his affirming arguments only came from himself. He put his own opinions and feelings above the word of the Lord our God. He even put words in the mouth of God by declaring what is good and evil for God. While I know this man believes himself to be good intentioned, we know what the path to hell is paved with. Also, i listen to a lot of apologetics for stuff like islam, mormons, lgbt "Christians," gnostics, and other cults, and ive noticed that all heresies or false religions use the word "beautiful" to describe aspects of their theologies
Saying that the god is uncaused causer is unlogical and creates another paradox - how was god created if there was no one and nothing to create him. We're back again at the question "where did everything come from", but this time it's even more unlogical because why would there need to be another link? Why is it that god appearing out of thin air and then creating the universe is more logical than the universe itself appearing out of thin air? Why would it need to be more confusing. Just because you can't explain how something started doesn't automatically mean that some god created it. At the start of the chain of events there always needs to be a first action. And that action being universes creation is much more logical than god's creation who then creates a universe. Now suppose there is a god, how would you know that yours is the right one and if the right one is even "discovered". Why would one think that out of all the religions and conspiracies, Christianity is the right one? We as a species need to be always evolving and exploring new things. The moment we stop seeking for answers and start to rely on religion for our answers is the moment objectivity starts dying. Religion is subjective and will forever stay subjective. Science is not, science looks for factual answers that benefit us in the real world. And factually there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's not some kind of a disease and it doesn't need to be and can't be cured. Besides, there's nothing to cure. There's nothing wrong with being part of the LGBTQ, no matter what your religion says.
@@kaurpajula2731 Asking, "what caused the uncaused cause" is very simple. Nothing. It's right what it says on the tin. I'm not entirely sure how you missed that. As for whether ours is the right one -- "by their fruits ye shall know them" is one option, and Western Civilization is the most successful civilization on the globe. Our God is worth a look. Our current problems are directly attributable to declining devotion to God, and rising secularism -- we have a mechanism of action and everything (disappearance of meaning, erosion of s*xual mores, getting mass-murder-happy from 1914-1945, etc.) If you don't think there's anything particularly necessary about heteronormativity, have a look at our fertility rates. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Anyway, thank you for playing, but you're just rehashing bad ideas from about 20 years ago (which in themselves were a rehash of bad ideas from 150 years before that.) We're seeing the consequences of a degenerate culture. We are regenerating it, by going back to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Beautiful discussion, both parties layed down their opinions and arguments in very respectful and comprehensible ways while genuinely trying to understand the other one's views
I find it funny that Perry affirms biology for his gayness but denies it for a fetus. I agree with zoomer, you need alot of mental gymnastics to get to gay affirming Christianity.
I'd say mental gymnastics extends to modern Christianity at large. The Bible is very clear that slavery is an allowed practice (Leviticus 25:44-45 for example), but yet modern Christians reject this idea along with polygamy which was endorsed by God himself countless times throughout the Bible (an example being 2 Samuel 12:7-8 where it is mentioned that God gave David multiple wives prior to his wicked acts against Uriah). Even exploring the concept of free will within a Christian lens requires much mental gymnastics to explain.
@ChickenSaysBak maybe you shoukd read the new testament. It clarifies the old testament. Of course you can take passages out of context and also you can be ignorant to jewish traditions. What the heck you're only trying to deceive others about God, shouldn't be a problem.....
@@TheMotownPhilly Ah yes, the new testament tells me that slaves should obey their masters and Jesus told a very wise parable in Matthew 25:1-13 about 10 virgins that were going to have sex with 1 man which was a metaphor for those entering the kingdom of God and being God's bride. Bold of you to assume that I'm unfamiliar with the new testament. And if you would please provide the context that I'm missing, that would be great.
@ChickenSaysBak how ignorant. Go away, you have no understanding of anything biblical. Like I said you take passages out of context without even understanding the real meaning. Go spread your ignorance somewhere else I'm not interested nor do I even want to take the time to explain any of it to you. Believe whatever you want. And yes that is very Christian of me.
I think the testimony of Rev. Perry clearly affirms what Zoomer said in his video about the spectrum of liberal vs conservative Christianity, in how liberalism progresses in stages. Rev. Perry started with LGBTQ affirmation, then maybe the Bible is not infallible, to then universalism, and finally when Zoomer brings up the idea of not believing Jesus is God, Rev. Perry did not seem at all revolted at the thought. Excellent dialogue here. Thanks to both for this discussion.
I personally choose to not argue this particular argument, because of my own past but this much I will say as someone who used to identify as queer. The way I feel now, identifying as a man who is attracted to women and who desires women, I am much happier than I was before. And I feel more in alignment with Christ within myself. God gave us free will and I will leave others to walk their path, while expressing love and honor. Have a nice day.
@@MatthewInJesusChrist I think if he's coming from a Calvinist perspective then he may be implying that the Bible never says we have free will? As a Calvinist I think we do have free will, but we are still bound by sin. We are free, but it all depends on how "free" free is. Hope this helps
Zoomer, I love how kind and listening you are. Please keep having that listening heart and continue standing for the true Gospel. I was so saddened by how distorted Benjamin's view of Jesus is, but so encouraged by your gracious response. You were quick to listen, slow to anger, and slow to speak.
Respect to Perry for havin the balls to actually talk with zoomer, most wouldn't dare
"Can you imaginewhat itsliketo be told that a part of you is sinful?" YES THAT'S THE ENTIRE CONCEPT OF ORIGINAL SIN
Exactly roughly paraphrased “I was a sinner from the moment of my conception”
Do you regard all marriage as sinful
@@lovingsingleton1873obviously the Lord requires marriage for relations
@@lovingsingleton1873 I don’t understand what marriage has to do with this but no, I think you misunderstood, not all actions are sinners but are sinners from conception aka sinners from birth aka only forgiven by god
@@AverageSlav then no you do not regard your sexuality as sinful. Redeemed zoomer is lying.
As a bisexual myself i am tired of this conversation.
I don't live a homosexual lifestyle and i reject my so thoughts. The difference between me and lgbt affirming people is that i accept the bible for what it is and i know that carrying on that path is as much a sin as others so i reject it. Lgbt folks are trying to sculpt their "interpretation" so it fits the sin they love too much to get rid off it.
I'd rather turn my back on a community than God.
Based
Lord bless you, champion!
@@ozziewhite4296 That's not correct
@@ozziewhite4296 i've had boyfriends and had, God forgive me, s***** interactions with a men. Even with the mother of my children, love of my life besides Jesus Christ, that i'm with now, we used to talk about it from time to time. But when i found Jesus, i decided that it's all gone and behind me and we don't mention it anymore. My inclinations are now towards God.
Amen brother and God bless you ❤🙏
@@jaihummel5057 And bless you heart too brother 🙏
This is how a debate should be. No interrupting each other, and no yelling at each other. Just peaceful disagreements and listening to each other.
I wouldn't even call this a debate as much as a guided interview since zoomer spoke very little and only asked questions versus providing responses (for the most part)
perry was pressed for a good majority of the debate.
It’s sadly very rare these days
I appreciate the respect amongst these two.
Bro didn’t even direct answer the majority of the questions
Jesus does not say love yourself. He says deny yourself, take up your cross and follow him.
fact
Who chooses what we are to deny?
God does, right?
@@monteirolobato6830Jesus. If you truly are in Christ, the Holy Spirit tells you what needs to change. Our goal is to be like Christ. Every Christian, regardless of their sin, must constantly examine themselves and bring themselves before God to have their sin revealed to them. When you put yourself in God’s hands and faithfully read His word and interact with other faithful Christians, you will clearly see the way you need to go. Putting our trust in ourselves and our (very) fallible judgment can only end poorly.
Partially true. He tells us to love others as ourselves (i.e. love others as we love ourselves). There are a lot of people who hate themselves. How can they possibly love others effectively if they don't understand how to love themselves first?
I am surprised by how respectful this conversation was for vicious it could have been. I think having discussions with the kind of mindset of politeness in mind is going to make productive dialogue like this much more possible.
This wasn't much of a conversation but an interview, though. But considering how the position of the LGBTQ affirming person here deviates from the Gospel, if this were a debate or a conversation, it would merit some serious exchange. There is no real understanding of sin or Salvation, and a questionable view of Jesus & His teaching, and an inconsistent view of the Scripture where he appeals to the Bible only when it serves his argument. (i.e. he does not recognize the power dynamic between a man and a woman in the OT marriages, how some men married concubines because they were in power, but would happily use it when it serves his argument for polygamous identity. While politeness is important and it has served to bring forth clarity the positions of pastors like him, if a real exchange were to happen when it pertains to the center of the Christian salvation, that politeness can die.
As far as time talking, this was ~95/5 the progressive preaching his secular values at RZ. He also in so many words called RZ and Christians 'bigots' 32:28 and 'violent' 36:43for believing the bible. He said that believing the bible is 'hell on earth' due to bigotry of those who believe it 32:28. You have to sort of listen to the undertone/remarks to catch these little jabs.....He also lies and says that God blesses multiple wives in the bible 45:32 (this is not true, there are some figures in the bible that had multiple wives but it wasn't prescribed by God....it is just a fact of what that human chose to do....often with negative repurcussions).
We are called to spread the gospel with grace.
Same should go for everything even this despite how heretical this pastor may sound.
Facts.
It’s not productive. It sends low information idiots flocking to his cause, all for the enlightenment of boomers.
The “what is a Christian?” Question was a very informative turning point in the conversation.
Well done Zoomer.
How do we feel about "if you can say the Nicene Creed without crossing your fingers" as a cutoff point?
@@jessefoutz597 woefully insufficient. This "pastor" is so shallow in Christianity and in reality is just a modern progressive liberal who decided to say he believes in Jesus. He very clearly places his own opinions in higher regard to the ultimate moral authority of God. His version of Christianity is "we should all love each other ad do everything we can to feel good about ourselves, even if it means openly accepting sin. He condoned homosexuality, he condoned adultery, he denied the bible being the inerrant word of God, etc, etc.
I think that is how all debates should start... To start with the definitions of basic stuff
Many fruits of The Spirit on display by Redeemed Zoomer here, particularly forbearance and self-control - all without compromising on the truth of God’s word. God bless you, brother.
Well, except he obviously doesn't follow the teachings and commands of Jesus. He is not a Christian. He is "Christian" who follows human rules. Read what I wrote to him. It's long. So, I won't repeat it here.
Here's a contradiction: Mr Perry said at the beginning of the talk (2:38) that he believed 'God knew me as he knit me in the womb' yet later on affirmed that fetus' aren't humans and thus abortion is permissible.
Good spot!
Fantastic observation !
He is consistent with Leftist political orthodoxies, not with Christianity.
@@jimluebke3869 yes, but only because leftist orthodoxy is "lie and make stuff up, what matters is sounding good not telling the truth"
he can only actually believe one of those positions. either he was a person in the womb, or he wasn't. the other is a lie to push his agenda.
that also makes me think of trans people (assuming they use that "knit in the womb" argument), why would God make you gender A if He knew you wanted to "change" it to gender B?
Jesus: “Deny yourself”
Perry: “I grew up feeling there was a part of me God didn’t love”
“but its who i am!! 😢”
Obviously God doesnt love our sins, in fact He hates them and wants us to give them up
Mathew 22: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.'
1 Corinthians 13: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not Love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not Love, I am nothing.
If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not Love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, Love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails.
But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: Faith, Hope and Love.
_But the greatest of these is Love._
Well, the part of you that is Original Sin is like that.
He is rejecting God's grace and Christ's sacrifice as the answer to sin, instead preferring to invent a way to change the rules.
@@ogloc6308 If you "identify as" a sin, that would seem to be failing to reject the Devil and all his works and all his ways.
Zoomers last comment about sin was so satisfying, you could just sense it brewing for the whole interview, and he still made his point with class. Amazing effort from his side.
Amazing how succinctly he could make it too. Gospel is a lot simpler than it seems at times.
Fs, that was impressive. I would've lost it all but you can tell he knows what he's talking about and is confident in the inerrant word of the Bible.
@@ethannoble8564
"But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3
Zoomer articulates his points so well.
We all like to think we’re the good guys and will flock toward whatever group affirms that.
This Pastor is a prime example of someone who wants something to be true because he has a vested interest in the outcome.
What is that interest?
@@JimLarryDanthat being "LGBT affirming" is acceptable in t eyes of God, and he will be accepted.
Pot calling the kettle black for every Christian…
@@JimLarryDanHim being queer and part of the LGBTQ movement. Thus if the Bible says that homosexual sex is wrong then he either cannot be queer or he cannot be an honest pastor, so he has to give up one.
So?@@UnitedStatesSpaceForce
"I don't believe the Bible is inerrant"
Aight there we are.
Unfortunately anyone who doesn't believe the bible is inerrant means everything they believe is self-defeating and entirely subjective.
What does that mean in a Christian context?
@@adriangutierrez441Inerrant means “without error” so basically he was asking if he thought the Bible was the divinely inspired work of God. If you don’t believe that, then you’re just arguing your personal opinion on philosophy.
Yeah, at this point you're no longer Christian really. At least that's my perspective. If your opinion is above God's revelation, anything goes.
The Bible is partially inerrant. Inerrant on matters of doctrine and salvation but may err on more minor details (such as minor mistakes about locations or people, or some small inconsistencies)
I think this is a fair middle ground between fundies and liberal modernists
Rev. Benjamin Perry says that God made the core part of him that is attracted to men, which we call sinful, just as he created the part of heterosexual men that is attracted to women. As a man married for 16 years, I still struggle with the sinful part of me that is attracted to women who are NOT my wife. That is a core part of me. And that is SINFUL.
God wants YOU to reject your sin within yourself, whatever part of your core it may be, so that you may be transformed by the blood of Christ.
Based.
but why are you not trying to reject the sinful part that is attracted to women? being unfaithful to your partner is not the same as loving another?
@@7chicken I am, trying to every day, with God's help. The difference here is that I fight against it, reject it, and confess that it is sin. Rev. Perry is defending and trying to justify his.
You doesn't answered his question being unfaithful is not the same as loving someone
There are worse sins than LUST. Even those that attain freedom from it then often have pride(ego). Pride that is justified, encouraged and celebrated by themselves and those around them.
But I feel your pain! 😭🙏
I don’t intend to be rude, however, Perry is no Christian. Being a Christian is seeking gods grace even after sinning, however, encouraging sin is of the devil.
I dont think it's not rude to call someone out on the truth of who they are - and the truth is that without Jesus' resurrection, without the commitment to scripture and God's calling to follow him, we cannot be Christian
Denial of sin is worse, I’d argue. And both these young men are guilty of that. Lust is not the only sin. But go ahead and get your stones ready if you think so much of yourself to even entertain such a prideful thought.
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." (Matt 7:1-2)
"For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:7)
"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man-you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself-that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed." (Romans 2:1-5)
I think he has just made an error, I do not think the gay thing disqualifies him, he probably genuinely believes it, what is more concerning is that he said he believed Ισούς physically rose from the dead because it is more powerful.
EDIT: To clarify, I believe Ισούς physically rose from the dead, but because I have evidence to support it, I was criticising his reasoning.
Being a Christian is being a follower of Jesus. When you don't follow His teachings and commands, you aren't a Christian. Read what I wrote to Zoomer. He is NOT a Christian.
On Benjamin's website it lists his greatest achievement as 'winning first prize in his seminary drag show'. Says it all really. Desperately sad.
"His two proudest achievements are skydiving with his grandmother and winning first prize in his seminary drag show." I think this shows some humor. His 'real' achievements are certainly more traditional.
it's the fact that they had a seminary drag show that's the problem here@@monteirolobato6830
“I already know that every part of me is sinful, because that is what the Bible tells me. There is not a single part of me that does not need to be corrected with the word of God and with the Spirit of Christ every single day.” 🔥
That would mean your heterosexuality must also be changed. Surely you don't believe that.
@@teehee4096 heterosexuals can live in sin. So, yeah, they would need to submit their feelings and desires to the Lord. Tee Hee 😘
@@teehee4096 you tried, and you failed. Surely you can do better than that.
@@teehee4096 Do I believe that I shouldn't f*ck every woman I'm attracted to? Of course, and it's Christianity that teaches me that, not anything of this world or in myself.
@@juilianbautista4067he clearly meant heterosexuality in itself, not the sin heterosexuals may act in
19:40 YIKES is all I can say...the entirety of Christianity hinges on the Resurrection. If the Resurrection didn't happen, then all of this is a house of cards.
That's an interesting statement. We are taught that is is by Christ's suffering and death that we are forgiven (or can be). Normative Christianity also holds that it is His resurrection that promises us heaven. I accept this mystery, but I do not limit the power of the Father's grace or power. Many believe that all will be saved. (I not entirely sure what that means, frankly.)
Yup Paul wrote that to the early church.
So says St. Paul.
If I lived in the west, I would start swimming in the atlantic until I'm not... I cannot believe the things I heard in this video.
I guess it's a house of cards then
19:31 -- lgbtq advocate reveals he does not believe the resurrection is essential to the Christian faith, while Redeemed Zoomer displays a supernatural ability to not interrupt but to keep asking more questions.
Well done, brother. Well done!
He said someone can be christian and not believe in the ressurection, but he said he believes in it himself
@@matijas7994yes we watched the video
If he is supernatural, it is because the enemy of God is helping him. Read what I wrote to him. It is long. So, I won't repeat it here.
Wolves in sheep's clothing are far scarier than wolves themselves.
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." (Matt 7:1-2)
"For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:7)
"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man-you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself-that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed." (Romans 2:1-5)
Guess you’re the wolf eh?….
WARNING: Sensitive content discussed in this comment.
Catholic take here. Rev. Perry brings up the possibility that the whole discussion with the lesbian women isn't about women wanting homosexual relationships but about unnatural sexual acts closed to the possibility of procreation. But don't all homosexual acts fit under this category? They're all specifically closed off to the possibility of procreation and all unnatural. He literally says the problem here is anal sex, not gay sex. And that might be all fine and well talking about women, but what about gay men? For two gay men to have sex, we must be talking about anal sex, oral sex, or something along those lines. It seems to me, either way you have to rule out gay sex.
That’s a great point.
Well said
I think the point is that the Bible does not make things very clear. We must discern the truth as much as we must have faith.
My thoughts exactly.
liberal and progressive theologians are rarely logically consistent or as smart as they imagine themselves to be. this trained, ordained minister just brung up the ignorant atheist "mixed fabrics" argument; who trained this guy?
We follow Christ, he does not follow us. I think anyone who cries "Why me" does not understand the assignment we have been tasked with as creatures of God. Being humble and becoming a better person starts with putting what YOU want aside. We are all sinners and perfectly imperfect. But we must strive to be better in everything that we do. I love what you are trying to do Zoomer. Coming together again is key if we are going to stand against Evil. Glory to The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. Amen.
Amen
"Being humble and becoming a better person starts with putting what YOU want aside." Like male and female marriage?
@@monteirolobato6830putting what you want aside and putting what God wants in the forefront, and the scripture makes it clear where God stands on marriage
@@monteirolobato6830 "We" don't want anything. It is Law.
I cry "Why me", just not the way he does. "Why me? Why was I offered such an honor? Why was I offered the blood of God Himself for my rotten sins? Who am I to gain such glory?"
And I hear in response, "Because I love you, because I chose you."
1:07:48 What a beautiful gospel-centered answer.
When the world's remedy is "Acceptance", the Bible preaches "Repentance".
Jesus welcomed sinners, not to affirm their sinfulness, but to set them free from it's bondage.
The story of Jesus doesn't make sense because god could just offer forgiveness for the sins he whimsically declared. Besides each sin occurs as planned by him.
@@jonatand2045 Why are you here if you are so ill informed on matter of theology ?
@@jonatand2045 we do not believe the divine positive law is arbitrary, we believe it is built into the universe on a level deeper than material.
your body is more arbitrary and transient than the bones of the world, which are righteousness, and holiness.
@@jonatand2045 Looking at the material consequences of sins (AIDS, etc), do you really think they were "whimsically declared"?
You really haven't given much thought to your ideas. Or are they just the ideas of others you're parroting?
@@arturnicaciodeandrade9861
I am informed of the illusory solutions to this, but it remains as whimsical.
Redeemed Zoomer keeps putting out incredible and useful content tent for our time. Thank you for making this happen!
He's a "pastor," and he references old ceremonial regulations being no longer relevant as his resoning for why homosexuality is acceptable? That's like entry-level Reddit atheist tripe.
Thats what i said haha
The Old and New Covenants were clear on it, but I am trying to stop casting the first stone. God knows I am not allowed to.
@@ferniceroom ONLy if you have same sin. Scripture is clear on that and exposing false.
Very scary, if the situation in America is that pastors that think that Jesus was basically a socialist and hippy as the common Hollywood view are allowed to get and keep their role.
He later admits that Paul swept away these ceremonial and dietary regulations, so why did he even bring it up as a justification for homosexuality?
Abraham "was told" to sleep with Hagar, but by whom? Not by God, by Sarah, who disbelieved God's promise. In the end, it was wrong, and that is a symbol for unbelief in the New Testament.
That’s what I was saying. He claims to be a reverend but doesn’t remember a fundamental story in the Bible, not to mention using it to justify sin.
Honestly made me roll my eyes so hard I wanted to scream when I heard parry say that!
And when Abraham did do it, he payed dearly for his mistake too!
That should tell you that man had his hand in the Bible as Jesus said. Read what I wrote to Redeemed Zoomer. It is long. So, I won't repeat it here.
@@DiNY-u9k nothing in your comment addresses what I wrote. Unless you think Sarah was a man ? ...
If you're going to reply to my comment, actually reply to what I'm writing, please; otherwise, don't bother. Write your own comment, which you obviously did, and leave my comment alone unless you want to engage with it.
@@christophekeating21 It is the fact that man got things wrong. The only perfect person in the Bible is Jesus but most people just ignore what He had to say.
"created me this kind of way" can be used to justify literally any sin that's difficult to control.
not at all, no one is created as a murder, but people are created as gay
Including tribalism, which he calls something innate to a person yet still considers a sin. It seems something is only a sin when it goes against progressive beliefs.
@@isacnascimento897 Psychopaths have an inclination to want to harm, that would likely fit.
@isacnascimento897 an instinct to violence is fundamental to most people, it's just that we invest a lot of time and energy training it out of people when they're children, then use the law to restrain those impulses and punish those who can't or won't be restrained.
@@MossW268 Congratulations, you compared psychopathy with attraction to the same sex. That's what happens when you take an ancient book that contradicts science and reason too seriously.
Jesus didn't say believe in yourself!
Jesus didn't say follow your heart!
Jesus didn't say live your truth!!!
He said believe in me.
He said follow me.
He said "I am the truth"!!!
What did Jesus say about homosexuality?
@@monteirolobato6830 nothing
@@monteirolobato6830 That Jewish teachings about sexual immorality had not changed.
Historian Rodney Stark writes, "As early as the seventh century, Saint Bathilde (wife of King Clovis II) became famous for her campaign to stop slave-trading and free all slaves; in 851 Saint Anskar began his efforts to halt the Viking slave trade. That the Church willingly baptized slaves was claimed as proof that they had souls, and soon both kings and bishops-including William the Conqueror (1027-1087) and Saints Wulfstan (1009-1095) and Anselm (1033-1109)-forbade the enslavement of Christians.
Since, except for small settlements of Jews, and the Vikings in the north, everyone was at least nominally a Christian, that effectively abolished slavery in medieval Europe, except at the southern and eastern interfaces with Islam where both sides enslaved one another's prisoners. But even this was sometimes condemned: in the tenth century, bishops in Venice did public penance for past involvement in the Moorish slave trade and sought to prevent all Venetians from involvement in slavery. Then, in the thirteenth century, Saint Thomas Aquinas deduced that slavery was a sin, and a series of popes upheld his position, beginning in 1435 and culminating in three major pronouncements against slavery by Pope Paul III in 1537."
This article is an excerpt from his book, For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-hunts, and the End of Slavery.
Copyright © 2003 Christianity Today.
This! The inherent dignity and worth of all persons made in imago Dei was not a minority position in the Body of Christ. This is what made Christianity a driving force in the abolition of slavery twice in human history: during the decline of the Roman Empire and then the abolitionists of the 18th and 19th centuries.
The issue is here though however is that some popes promoted slavery of non-christians as did European monarchs in the Early Middle Ages as a lot of early Christians promoted the abolition of slavery among Christians only until St. Augustine and St. Gregory of Nyssa I believe came along and said all slavery is evil and sinful right?
Then you got the stupid guys that advocated for slavery later on lol
So they were the progressive Christians of their day contradicting centuries of Christian teaching. Rodney Stark was a sociologist.
2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves TEACHERS to suit their OWN passions.
Ben Perry spent his entire time talking about himself, things that were pleasing to him, and pleasures of the earth. I don’t think he spent a single moment talking about what he or his “congregation” could or should be doing that were pleasing to God. That’s an interesting position for a minister…
54:40 "extramarital sex is not inherently sinful as long as everyone involved consents" how is this guy real 😂😂
He's rational and knowledgeable about the true nature of the all loving God and not the narcissistic character humans created.
Are you fucking serious?
Are you fucking serious?
@@HalfEvilTripl3 If you think anyone who effectively says, "Do as you will" is God (or loving) you're absolutely on the wrong track.
Whom the Lord loves, He chastises.
@@jimluebke3869He chastises those he "loves." Sounds like an abusive narcissistic brat. I'd rather burn forever, or die a second death than worship such an evil being.
It's interesting that he says you cannot love someone unless you affirm everything about them. Meanwhile, Jesus says to deny yourself and follow him only.
The story of Jesus doesn't even make sense. God sends him to die so he can forgive the sins he whimsically declared.
@@jonatand2045God didn’t create sin
@@_draxuz3641
I said declared. As in god declared that this or that is sin according to his subjective preferences. That's why your portrayal of god is flawed. Also god created sin by designing all variables that guarantee each and evey sin.
@@jonatand2045 Which is exactly why it makes sense, he is the only one who could possibly offer us redemption.
@@reaganlecroy7773
You missed the part where he could offer redemption with a snap instead of a messianic drama. I also proved god designs each sin, as every outcome is the inevitable result of the variables of the design.
When they don't respond with scripture as a defense for their faith, simply put, it has nothing to do with the bible.
Whose interpretation of scripture?
@@ItsThatGuy1989 Silence would indicate not even their own.
@@ItsThatGuy1989 I can fully explain why this is true, their arguments on their reading of the bible is being refuted. So when they come with scripture, they have no ground, cause theology doesnt have facts to argue for it. They are beyond it and i think that says enough.
@@ItsThatGuy1989There are right and wrong interpretations.
@@ItsThatGuy1989the correct one
He said he doesn't think that the baby is human because it is inside of the womb and unviable outside of it, but in the beginning he cited how the verse in Psalm 139 about how God saw him in the womb of his mother before he was born helped him reach the conclusion that his "queer" identity was valid in the eyes of God. May God help him.
He's nothing more than a Leftist making a mockery of Christianity.
Don't mistake him for any kind of deep thinker.
My question to all of this, and I am sorry you happened to be chosen at random, is what do you then think gay people should do? Is priesthood the only acceptable option?
@@agatofelin722 Priesthood (along with teaching or medicine) are absolutely unacceptable options for people with these particular temptations. What we're fighting right now is an epidemic of grooming -- because these people can't reproduce, they recruit, and because they don't respect boundaries, categories, or rules, there isn't any real reason they would stay away from young people (including children).
The solution? Resist whatever temptation is put in front of you. All unmarried heterosexual men in a congregation (some of whom will never marry) are expected to _not_ sleep with any of the women there, and vice versa.
So, no, there's nothing unique about homosexuality as a sin. And yes, celibacy is what is expected of _everyone_ outside of marriage, and yes, marriage is between one man and one woman for life.
@@agatofelin722 Resisting temptation -- in this case, celibacy -- is the only acceptable option, yes. Just like for other sins. There is nothing unique or special about homosexuality as a sin.
@@agatofelin722 My note to whomever is suppressing these comments -- you can't silence the truth. All you are doing is convincing people who know the truth, just how drastic the necessary actions are going to be, to make sure the truth gets a fair hearing.
RUclips, you have been warned. Stop suppressing speech.
45:38 Abraham was definitely not told to impregnate hagar, it's pretty clear that that was an action from lack of faith that Sarah would bear him a child, and laying with Hagar led to conflict with his wife, even though it was her idea.
I love these kinds of conversations. Civil discussions with people we disagree with an topics that are divisive is so, so valuable. It helps with cognitive hygiene, and actively maintaining (not just "holding") our beliefs.
Big props to Redeemed Zoomer for doing this debate, it's good to see that humans can still disagree without, y'know, wanting to kill eachother
Sodomy is a sin and has no place being promoted in the church
Islam still catching up on that one....
@@jaema8281 Quite correct, unfortunately
@jaema8281 that is unfair to lump all people of one religion together like that, Islam is a religion of peace as most religions are. Every faith has people who claim to be part of it who don't follow doctrine.
@@blocksandbooks273 I really want to agree, I have Muslim family and friends and I love them, but it's impossible to ignore the global trends of Islam. Their extremism rate is many times greater than every other religion combined, their 'homeland' countries have the most oppressive laws (relative to the West), and across the West they are trying to install Sharia law
I know this does not represent all of them, but these trends become more distinct with each passing day
I thought he seems like a genuine Christian despite being LGBTQ affirming in the first couple of minutes, but it started to be clear that he's missing the overall most important message of Christianity, and pretty much putting in whatever he feels like he wants to believe.
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." (Matt 7:1-2)
"For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:7)
"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man-you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself-that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed." (Romans 2:1-5)
7:38 Less than ten minutes in, and I'm already understanding that this guy hears what he wants to hear. If Paul was only rebuking the fact that the masters were raping the slaves, then why did he specifically point out that both parties are male?
I don't think that's a good argument, if he didn't point out that the slaves were male would that make being gay okay?
thats simply just not a defeater to the position lol him pointing out more details only indicates hes speaking about a certain type of situation that he might have witnessed or been made aware of
@VuahdjahfnFjakxpgmanc you do realize they're up to interpretation right? its a matter of you providing a case as to why your interpretation of the text is the correct one lol
This is a great example of letting people debunk themselves.
Yep. I was thinking about the debate with James White, Jeff Durbin, and Brandon (??). The fact that Benjamin’s “Christianity” contradicts what 99.9% of all Christendom has taught for 2 millennia became apparent much faster because Redeemed Zoomer just let him speak.
@@tropicalpines4585
Wait until you find out how much the bible contradicts science.
@@jonatand2045 well, considering "science" is inherently mutable and never completely settled, I don't really have any cause for concern.
@@marvalice3455
A lie written in stone is still a lie. Evolution is pretty solid by now, with plenty of supporting evidence. Or do you think gid left fossils to trick us?
@@marvalice3455
So is evolution not settled? Do you think god left fossils to toy with us?
Zoomer: "Where in the bible does it affirm LGBT?"
Rev Perry: *silence*
Debate over
I find it telling he didn't even try to use the typical translation arguments that affirming Christians try to use. He either isn't aware of those arguments, false as they are or outright realizing he's been lied to.
Ouch
1 Samuel 18:1, Isaiah 56:3, Matthew 19:12, Acts 8:36, Galatians 3:28… I would study what a eunuch is and what it means for the church.
Time stamp?
@@nicholasguzman5560 None of these verses affirm LGBT. Don't cherrypick and misrepresent the bible.
A thought provoking discussion. What I find a bit inconsistent is that at one point, Perry states quite clearly that homosexuality as understood today is not a category that existed back in biblical times. And yet, this relatively new category is something he claims to be an essential part of his (and others') humanity and further is something that God and Christians must affirm. Even among some LGBT individuals, the idea that homosexuality is a fixed and 'real' category is being questioned with newer paradigms like sexuality being on a spectrum, pansexuality, etc. Just as we must critically examine the labels and terms used in the biblical times, I think we need to use the same critical lens when looking at contemporary uses.
IT isnt Something new besides the paintjob
@@laisphinto6372 Agreed. When they can't corrupt the law, they try to corrupt the language.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet; people having same-s*x carnal relations is a sin, whatever you call it.
There's a story that goes: At the pearly gate, St. Peter confronts a man about his adultery. "Do you repent of this sin?"
"Well sir, I was wearing a [sheepgut] condom, so I wasn't actually touching the woman, so it wasn't adultery."
"In that case, I have to ask you: do you repent of buggering a dead sheep?"
Please pray for my girlfriend and me. We are in dire need of God's help.
He is helping us! Please keep praying! 🙏🏻✝️
I would love to! Anything in particular?
@@annat2361 It's complicated, to put it mildly. Earlier this year she had a psychotic break that lasted a week. She saw and heard abusive things from me (which, to be clear, I did not do or say). She got meds for a while and it was wonderful again. She doesn't trust me because she believes I'm not telling her the truth about that week. She has told me that she loves me more than she's ever loved anyone and she just wants to come home; followed by her begging me to just be honest with her. No one in her family will help her, and I can do nothing but watch the love of my life endure torment from a distance.
I pray several times a day for five to ten minutes. It's agonizing for me but I know it's worse for her.
God please help us!
surely, swasti 🕉
He is helping us! Please keep praying! 🙏🏻✝️
May God help the two of you
The thing is, as a straight christian I have to deny myself certain worldly pleasures to please God, and follow Chirst. I do not sleep with a hot woman I meet just because she is horny and willing. I have to take things slow, establish a connection and if she is someone who can partner up with as a wife and we can come together under God as one in marriage then it is okay to then have relations with her. Being gay and partaking in the acts is just as wrong as if I would hook up with a hot woman, just being she is there and willing.
Most LGBT people seem to be coming at it all from a place of lust, and a love for worldly desires, and not from a stand point of what does God want for me. They seem to be pushing to have us except their brand of sinful lusts, which is no worse nor better than the lust's most the modern hook up culture gives into. It just comes off as I want to have fun, and live for this world, and not as much I want to live for God, and help spread Gods world and teachings to make this world more Christ like. It becomes something more self serving, grounded in lust, pride, and other worldly sins.
You're judging. Are you free of sin? Then you can throw a stone
FACTS, this is the TRUTH and many will come after you saying "you shouldn't be judging people......."
but you're simply rebuking sinful behavior, and preaching TRUTH. TRUTH hurts sometimes.
@@pao2529we’re called to remove the log from our eye before removing the speck in our brothers. So yeah, he’s judging as a non-hypocrite, as Jesus commanded.
@@pao2529yet after that incident Jesus said
John 8:9-11 ESV
[9] But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. [10] Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” [11] She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”
He said sin no more. We are to love one another, but despise their sin. We all have sinned, thus we cannot throw a stone at one another, but that does not mean we should live in sin.
Don't use that verse as an excuse for sinful behavior.
Brother, making a statement and stoning someone are very different@@pao2529
So Benjamin’s position is basically:
The Bible is correct when it affirms my personal views on sexuality and morals, but is incorrect where it does not affirm them.
That sounds like some very rocky ground that simply creates a god in our own image.
Exactly what I thought
Best summed up by "I believe my job as a minister is to affirm and teach what I believe about God." No. Your job as a minister is to affirm and teach what GOD TEACHES about God.
And his definition of "Christian" was that he wouldn't say anyone who called themselves a Christian wasn't a Christian.
It's subjective reasoning.
@@colinsmith1495 Their job is not clearly to follow evidence and logic to where they lead. I mean just evolution alone proves the bible is very flawed.
An excellent example of Socratic argumentation at work. Ask questions, and watch somebody dig their own grave.
Very good on RZ for letting his guest talk in length.
He should get his money back from whatever “seminary” he went to.
Or they should sue him for misrepresenting and disgracing them...
semenary*
An affirming Christian pastor accusing people of picking and choosing is pretty rich.
Right? He kind of acted like the only prohibition of homosexuality was "expired" Levitical law, but Romans also condemns this, and other places too. Yet if you look over the entire Bible, it seems almost as if there is a point being made that same-sex relationships are sinful specifically. If they were permissible in any way, it would be alluded to or stated in the Bible. But that doesn't matter if you throw out inerrancy I guess
Okay, but is it...y'know _wrong?_ Because it seems like he's right on the money.
@@Awaken_To_0 So it's only picking and choosing in a good way when it agrees with his, and clearly your morality but when *we* "pick and choose" it's bad. Ok dude you missed the point of my statement
@@BoondockBrony No, I got your point. I wonder if you got mine though, since you seemed to just answer a different question nobody asked?
I'll try again: "Is he wrong to say that people on both sides of this debate are picking and choosing?" Be honest, like God calls you to be, and answer. Don't dodge or divert.
@@Awaken_To_0
No. Christians are not picking and choosing at all because homosexuality is still condemned in the New Testament.
i wish i could've heard more of what zoomer had to say. he didnt once interrupt perry, but it felt like perry interrupted zoomer just about every time he started speaking. nonetheless, this conversation was much more respectful on both sides than i was expecting; props to you both
He seems like a really nice guy but oof his explanations were all over the place.
edit: I just wanna say also though that even though I disagree, I believe God loves him and he is a human being who we should treat with dignity and respect! He stayed very respectful in this conversation even when he clearly was a little ruffled, and I respect that as well!
i agree
Perry: “I grew up feeling there was a part of me God didn’t love”
That is called sin, we all have some form of it and we all must get rid of it.
Fortunately, we are saved from it by Christ's sacrifice.
Not by our own efforts ("mental gymnastics") claiming the rules are something other than they are.
All I hear is mental gymnastics to justify sin 🤸♂️
Idk why the emoji amused me but it sticks the landing
Sir, we dont AFFIRM our sinful nature! We battle against it. We fight. I'm not suggesting I'm above anyone, I'm suggesting that we ALL have sin problems, BUT the answer is not pretending our sinful ways are good.
So... At 18:55 he says that to be a christian you need to believe in some core beliefs, like the divinity of Jesus and His physical resurrection, but seconds later he is already saying that not believing in that does not equate to someone not beeing a christian. When we try to affirm everything we end up like this, in constant contradiction.
Im pretty sure if you believed Jesus died on the cross for your sins and you worship him you get to call yourself a Christian. It's a very inclusive religion, you could even be gay and be a Christian if you want clearly.
@@spreadwuvokay If that's your opinion on the matter, although I don't agree, my point is not to confront your view. I was pointing out the errors in Benjamin Perry views. He said what he said, not you.
@@joaoleal2912 He didn't contradict himself though.
@@spreadwuvokay He is asked what defines a christian, what makes you a christian, and he answers with what I said in my first comment. As he is answering he contradicts himself. If you ask me what makes me portuguese and I answer "Having portuguese nationality" and seconds later I say "Not having portuguese nationality does not equate to you not beeing portuguese" that is a contradiction. Is saying A is equal to not A. If you don't think he contradicted himself I'm honestly not going to discuss that. Have a good day, and God bless you.
@@joaoleal2912 That's not what happened here.
This was so hard to watch. I must give credit to zoomer for his patience here.
1. Clicks video
2. Sees "he/they"
This pastor has already affirmed that he is dedicated to destroying the blessed and holy distinctions that our Creator God uses to hold us together. He's already fallen to Gnostic heresy. This man rejects the gospel as given by Jesus Christ and substitutes it with his own, in which he steals the goodness of the Father and attributes it to himself. What this "pastor" is doing is a great evil, and I pray that he repents.
Just watch the video completely, just because he has a different intepretation of how you should treat others doesnt mean he is completely evil
It's not that he is completely evil. It's that his beliefs are, and he's been corrupted by them. The worldview is evil and leads him to do evil and spread evil.
Jesus says to love your enemies, not "you have no enemies." This pastor is corrupt and spreading evil and must be ideologically fought. We are in a spiritual war. Get your head on straight.
the problem is his interpretation on how we should treat others is predicated on a rejection of the Word of God@@Dinosaurs847
I have many gay friends. While I don’t approve of their lifestyles, I won’t shun them, because I know how dead we all are in sin. Rev Perry is a real one for agreeing to the debate. God bless.
Stop being theyre friend, you are doing a disservice to them and to you
@@stegosandrosos1291 you are a bastard
@@stegosandrosos1291 And why is that, sweetie? Because your magic book of ancient stories told you that gay people are evil supervillains who are going to be tortured for all eternity for no reason other than the fact your god is objectively a hateful narcissistic asshole not worth worshipping? Cool story, bro! Do you also believe Harry Potter? EXPECTO PATRONUM!
I feel like shunning is different than discussing and listening. Jesus didn’t shun, he listened, gave compassion, pointed out their sin and told them to sin no more.
@stegosandrosos1291 I’m going to stay friends with them. If all the good Christians ran away from them, what would they think of Christianity? I love them in spite of their sins. I’d do them a disservice to leave them.
I think though, that people in the church who do have same sex-attraction should be able to talk about it openly. To share their struggles and how God has met them in that, and to not be shamed or silenced, or told to hide it unless God frees them from it. They should not be told to live in it, but they should be allowed to be open about those struggles and boast in God's grace for them. When we are weak, He is strong. Having people who are loved and supported by their church while being open about their orientation will help both new christians who also struggle with same-sex attraction realize they can come to God, and give them hope, as well as show children who realize they also have this struggles that they are not going to have to leave their church or have no one to help them. I am not sure if using LGBT+ identity terms is wrong, because on one hand it makes ones identity their sexual orientation, not their status as a child of God. But on the other hand, it is a clear way to talk about the issue that people who want to come to the faith can understand.
Only if we apply this to all sin. For example, a man who is only attracted to married women speak openly about this and share his struggles and have all the married guys in his group thrilled to help him deal with his sinful desires. Which we don’t do, because same sex sin (wrongly) gets its own category. Also, we should be ashamed of our sinful desires. We should also live in the forgiveness the Lord gives us when we repent and turn away from them, but the Scripture doesn’t say do not be ashamed of your sin. The opposite.
I absolutely agree with you. Even though I believe that this person is willfully refusing the obvious commands of scripture people in the LGBTQ movement should be able to be open about their struggles
I agree. I've been to many churches where I feel I cannot be open with my struggle with homosexuality for that reason. I believe and am a believer and my struggle with same sex attraction is what I feel my biggest barrier to Christ. I simply cannot change who I'm attracted to and still feel that it's wrong for me to be homosexual. But I also feel it can't be possible that I'm destined to force myself to have no attraction to males and deal with having no marriage at home. I pray I'll find a church where I can be open and progress with these issues one day.
It's the same thing as being an adulterer, or having a pornography addiction, or being a kleptomaniac, or being an arsonist. Yeah sure say you struggle with the desires but don't try to change the gospel to be pro sin.
@@PenMom9 Oh yes! I wasn’t saying do not be ashamed of your sin. But do not let fear shame you from sharing how God’s Grace has moved in your life. And this applies to all sin. I know Protestants don’t really like it (I am Protestant) but confessing our sins to other believers is a way God has given us to help us come to freedom. We are not meant to struggle alone. Now, I don’t think this means we should all go up onstage and start listing off our sins, by no means. But church should not be a place where we feel we have no true brothers in Christ to confide in and get accountability from
Guys, there's a reason God told us its Adam and Eve
The Bible never says follow your heart or you do you. I'm just saying..... pride comes before fall yall.
well said
Zoomer, your questions and remarks were surgically precise. You were very respectful.
Ah yes, because being blatantly homophobic and telling people in this comment section to remain permanently celibate against men is totally respectful!
@@analternatemultiverse2063 Totally respectful. He's not homophobic, this word doesn't even make sense. Phobia = irrational fear or aversion to something. I think he loves gay people, that's why he tells them the truth.
@@silviomp I didn't invent the word, chief. Go complain to the dictionary or something. It's just a word people use to describe people who are bigoted against homophobes. Which Redeemed Zoomer objectively is. It's not "the truth" to tell them to hide away their sexuality forever and remain "permanently celibate" against men regardless of their sexual preference. He did this in this comment section, and the vulnerable person he told it to listened to him. A person who "loves" gay people doesn't tell them to actively not be gay for life or you're going to hell.
@@analternatemultiverse2063 "Homophobia" is a recently made up word. Nobody used it until 10 years ago.
Dude, if you're straight and you sleep with someone else's spouse, it's a sin and you'll go to hell if you don't repent. If you agree with me, you're an "adulterousphobic". If a grown up man wants to... you know what... with children and you say they're wrong, I'll have to label you a "pedophilephobic". Yes, dude, we all need to fight against our natural fallen inclinations. There's nothing God can't change. The world is upside down, now thieves are encouraged to steal. There are pedophiles saying children have sexual rights. Just because it's consented, it's not a sin anymore? According to this World everything is fine since the other person agrees. Well, I don't agree with you, should I label you a "opinionphobic", a "Christiphobic"? If you want to follow Jesus, you need to deny your desires, all of us have to. And yet we won't be saved by our own merits, Jesus paid our debt. However, those who are in the Spirit don't fulfill the desires of the flesh. If you're a Christian, remember that Jesus called sinners sick and He's the doctor. Dude, if you hate Jesus, no Christian will condemn you for sleeping with your own parents. Redeemed Zoomer is just saying what's in the Bible. I perceive hate in you, you're the one who hates people here. I hope you change for the better. All with you all the best.
To debate with someone over biblical truth when they've already abandoned it in favor of secular truth, or 'non-reality' is a hopeless endavour doomed from the start. You can't convince him of anything when he doesn't believe the bible to be infallible, and especially can't if he's universalist. I appreciate your serious patience RZ. I could never.
While I agree with your broader point, it is never a hopeless endeavor to engage someone in a theological debate in an effort to display the Truth to them. Homosexuals need the Gospel shared to them. They don't have it and they stand dead in their sin. That goes for any unrepentant sinner who has not placed their faith in Christ. Have the hard conversations for the sake of the advancement of the Gospel.
I couldn't either, one of his points for biblical justification of practicing homosexuality was "well even if it was wrong other Christians don't do 'x' either" then proceeds to talk about how "modern" homosexuality is different than it was 2000 years ago. It's truly as clear as day how God feels about homosexuality, as it has been for the past 2 millennia.
Biblical truth? No divorce, no killing (abortion and capital punishment), mandatory tithes, no shopping on Sunday, etc... Biblical truth?
@@monteirolobato6830 When we examine Jesus' words in the broader context of His teachings, we know right away that He is not telling us to despise people or hurt them deliberately. This is, after all, the same Jesus Who tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves and, even more, as He loves us. What He means here is that we must choose Him above all else in our lives, even the people closest to us. We must love Him more than we love them even to the point of detaching ourselves from them if we must.
We might wonder, then, why Luke chose to render Jesus' Aramaic word and Semitic idiom as the strong word “hate” in the Greek. Matthew did not. He translated the idiom rather than the word (and this helps us understand Luke's version better): “Whoever loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me...” (Matthew 10:37). So why did Luke, inspired by the Holy Spirit, leave the word “hate” in place?
Perhaps he could see that people would need a strong message like this in the future. Perhaps he knew that the shock value of the statement would get people thinking and talking. Perhaps he realized that Christians would sometimes face difficult choices and need to hear strong words to help them choose rightly.
Proverbs 26:4-5 - Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.
Benjamin Perry and his ilk are much similar to pharisees. They make many exceptions to God’s law to evade what God plainly calls sin. So he says stuff like “God did not completely condemn homosexuality or adultery, he only condemned exploitative or non-consensual aspects of homosexuality or adultery.” Even though nowhere does God in the New Testament make such an exception.
This guy, a pastor, is really defending abortion, extramarital sex, and denial of the Resurrection. Are seminaries just willing to accept anyone? Are parishes just willing to hire anyone with the degree? We all need to pray for the state of the Church. This is beyond concerning.
i would barely call him a christian at this point
@@jimmythestikman Yeah, he’s the loosest form of a Christian, if he’s one at all. He should not be shepherding a flock.
"Will preach 4 food" 🤣
This is literally new age, he's not loving God, he is loving the god that he had made up in his head
Christ is Lord. God bless you Zoomer for remaining respectful and just listening while our fellow friend here spoke heresy
You can tell in some spots he was already annoyed but he kept his cool and listened, good job Zoomer
The way he says gives me the understanding that he thinks the bible is lacking and its not the word of God and he has is own interpretation instead of reading the text as it is.
Sex outside of God's ordained order is sin. Period.
Anything that goes against this hard line is sin and rebellion.
May God have mercy on the souls of those who preach a different Gospel.
“I’m a Christian”
“Also I think the Bible is good in some ways but only as long as it supports what I believe”
“Also the Bible isn’t infallible”
“Also christians dont need to affirm the literal resurrection”
“Also I don’t think you need to share your faith and see othrrs come to truth”
“Also im a universalist so you don’t need to be a Christian”
bruh…
Yeah -- this guy is a _pastor?_
He's tickling ears and leading people into darkness. @@jimluebke3869
bro spent an hour trying to justify going against God's creation lol
The world needs a Yes2Day/RZ collab
Saying that the god is uncaused causer is unlogical and creates another paradox - how was god created if there was no one and nothing to create him. We're back again at the question "where did everything come from", but this time it's even more unlogical because why would there need to be another link? Why is it that god appearing out of thin air and then creating the universe is more logical than the universe itself appearing out of thin air? Why would it need to be more confusing. Just because you can't explain how something started doesn't automatically mean that some god created it. At the start of the chain of events there always needs to be a first action. And that action being universes creation is much more logical than god's creation who then creates a universe.
Now suppose there is a god, how would you know that yours is the right one and if the right one is even "discovered". Why would one think that out of all the religions and conspiracies, Christianity is the right one? We as a species need to be always evolving and exploring new things. The moment we stop seeking for answers and start to rely on religion for our answers is the moment objectivity starts dying. Religion is subjective and will forever stay subjective. Science is not, science looks for factual answers that benefit us in the real world. And factually there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's not some kind of a disease and it doesn't need to be and can't be cured. Besides, there's nothing to cure. There's nothing wrong with being part of the LGBTQ, no matter what your religion says.
There is no group of Christians with a "right to sin". If sexual immorality is ok for some, then it's ok for all. There is neither such thing as a law-abiding criminal, nor an LGBTQ-affirming pastor. Wherever he is leading his parishioners, it is not heaven.
This is why the reconquista is important. People will walk into a beautiful Presbyterian church and meet a minister with no intent to save their soul. We can't expect to redeem the culture if we can't even redeem First Presbyterian down the street
Amen and Amen
I'm a born against Christian who identifies with conservative Baptist tenants, with conviction and Biblical basis, however some beliefs may be partly from upbringing. I break from conservative Presbyterian's on infant baptism, unless it's purely done as a symbol and not as some sort of act that actually redeems a child's soul then I suppose no big deal but not necessary and has more risk of doing harm then good imho, and then on strict Calvinism, viewing humankind's limited free-will and God's sovereignty to both be Biblical truths. I think I could be a "Presbyterian" Christian if I found a church that, along with the core doctrines we already agree on, taught the infallibility of the Scripture and the need to fulfill the great commission : ) I'm encouraged that Redeemed Zoomer is working on this movement! So called Progressive Christianity is wicked and has strayed from the word of God and needs Christians to stand up for the truth despite the odds.
Kinda gross how the "Reverend" touted that conservative Christian numbers were dwindling in face of ever increasing numbers of progressive christianity. Makes me think what it must have been like in Israel and Judah right before they were taken into captivity.
...Please don't incite interfaith violence against the pro gay Christians in a bid to spread fundie Christianity across America. It's 2024, first time visitors to Presbyterian churches have read online reviews beforehand.
@@jow5872 Where did you get interfaith violence from what I said? Also someone like this who can barely recite the Apostle’s Creed without his fingers crossed isn’t “inter-faith.” That’s been condemned as heresy long before Fundamentalist Christianity.
@@laiquende9971 "reconquista" on a video about debating pro LGBT Christians. Unless that word somehow denotes peaceful and harmonious disagreement. The historical usage suggests otherwise, and Christians have quite a violent history.
I'm an atheist so I cannot comment on your second sentiment. I would be more inclined to judge someone by the content of their character rather than their ability to correctly signal Christian dogwhistles.
one thing i notice is how often he says "for me" "in my faith journey" etc. but it's not about us it's about God's glory
Religion is about one's personal spiritual beliefs and relationship with their deity (or dieties)
@@vincentsalcido9605 Except he's talking about christianity, not religion in general.
His “faith” to me honestly sounds far closer to hedonism than Christianity.
“What is consensual and make people happy can’t be sinful” seems to be basically what he is arguing. He really is arguing for hedonism more than anything.
Maybe he has truly faith in Christ but he is making a big mistake in the way he interprets the bible which is evidently biased. I think that if he has truly faith in Christ he will one day end up giving up his sin and stop believing this heresies, which i dont think he truly believes deep in his heart
@@AgustinQ192 We can only hope and pray for that to be the case.
@@mythguard6865 surely
Every “affirming” person uses the SAME tired and poor arguments. The straw grasping and gymnastics are a testament to the lengths one will go to remain self-deceived.
facts
Saying that the god is uncaused causer is unlogical and creates another paradox - how was god created if there was no one and nothing to create him. We're back again at the question "where did everything come from", but this time it's even more unlogical because why would there need to be another link? Why is it that god appearing out of thin air and then creating the universe is more logical than the universe itself appearing out of thin air? Why would it need to be more confusing. Just because you can't explain how something started doesn't automatically mean that some god created it. At the start of the chain of events there always needs to be a first action. And that action being universes creation is much more logical than god's creation who then creates a universe.
Now suppose there is a god, how would you know that yours is the right one and if the right one is even "discovered". Why would one think that out of all the religions and conspiracies, Christianity is the right one? We as a species need to be always evolving and exploring new things. The moment we stop seeking for answers and start to rely on religion for our answers is the moment objectivity starts dying. Religion is subjective and will forever stay subjective. Science is not, science looks for factual answers that benefit us in the real world. And factually there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's not some kind of a disease and it doesn't need to be and can't be cured. Besides, there's nothing to cure. There's nothing wrong with being part of the LGBTQ, no matter what your religion says.
I am a bisexual person. If I determined my own morality, I would absolutely pursue sexual relations with other men. However, not only do I know fully well that it would degrade myself and my dignity, as any sexual immorality degrades us, it would also have the same effect on the person I did it with. Not only that, I am absolutely aware of the reasons for why I have these feelings, and they are completely indistinguishable from why I have struggled with alcohol, for example. It comes from a lack of respect for myself, a lack of respect for God, and a desire to avoid the cross. That is why it is sin. Period. Not that I hold myself in contempt for this - sin is inherited, and Christ will redeem me.
stay strong in christ brother
Bisexual isn’t a thing
@@iamengie2573how so?
I don't understand why you guys refer to consensual homosexual acts as sexual immoralities. Shouldn't that be reserved for thing like viewing people as sex objects, sexual assault, sexual abuse and bestiality?
@@MetalBansheeX being gay is a sin because we follow what the bible says. Read leviticus 18:22 or 1 corinthians 6:9. it is detestable to the eyes of the lord.
I just think it's impressive that you can have such a high evaluation of your abilities to interpret the Bible and be so certain of the legitimacy of you interpretations when it goes against 2,000 years of scholarship from people who studied the texts in far more depth and in multiple languages across every denomination of Christianity.
this is true, although I would caution you with this logic, otherwise you have no choice but to become Catholic/ Eastern Orthodox
but I agree that the guiding principles on sexuality are a tradition sealed in the spirit, and to claim that nothing which we previously believed is true is to say that the spirit itself is errant.
The reformation claims to be a...reform back to what was previously believed because of our faith in the power of the spirit working through history.
And those who follow the old scholarship ignore that their beliefs have been debunked by science and reason. Even the beginning of genesis has plants created before the sun. What do you expect from an ancient book? It's just that accepting an indiferent physical universe would hurt to muuch and even be offensive to some.
@@jonatand2045 Most biblical scholars going right back to at least 100 AD don't read the start of Genesis as a litteral event. So try again.
@@goddepersonno3782 What happens if you become Catholic/Eastern orthodox?
@@goddepersonno3782I hope you aren't seriously suggesting that purgatory and seven sacraments came from robust scholarly study of Scripture lol.
His arguments are all from his own “feelings” and not from the Bible itself
😂😂😂 so on point!
Yeah and it was the same for all the men who wrote the Bible when they made it up.
@@kyrerymmukk7446 I can't imagine watching Christian discussion/debate comtent just so you can shit on their faith lol. Did you blow in from stupid town?
@@kyrerymmukk7446why are you here?
Do you know how many translations the Bible went through and how altered it was over history, long before it was ever standardized in English? And before it was widely available, people relied on the FEELINGS AND INTERPRETATIONS of it from their own religious leaders? Your point is moot.
He's basing his whole theology on Worldly culture not only our Holy God moral standard. Lean not to your own understanding, but in all thy ways acknowledge God, and he will direct your path.
And he's saying the religion of God who led the Israelites out of Egypt, is somehow pro-slavery.
@@jimluebke3869 Have you read the Old Testament?
He sat and let this guy babble for the whole seventy minutes with pseudo-intellectual non-biblical nonsense. He listened intently. He didn't interrupt. He listened to this deeply lost person mope and complain about why he believes that God is beholden to him for his immutable nature. RZ spoke his mind only when asked in the final minutes. I am a sinner. There is no part of me that is not beholden to God. That is the gospel. Pure, simple truth.
I'm very impressed with his grace.
Came to say the same. RZ was almost too patient with him.
The last comment about being inherently sinful and being humble enough to accept that was a very much needed comment.
I personally agree with Redeemed Zoomer
Saem
Same
Obviously
everyone dose
Zoomer's obviously the one who won the debate.
Many LGBTQ affirming Christians I've met argue that the only sin of Sodom and Gammora was sexual violence. To which I bring up Leviticus 20:13 "You shall not lie with mankind as with women. That is an abomination". Does that make rape fine. If you believe Sodom's sin does not refer to homosexuality, then you believe this one doesn't either.
There is no such thing as a affirming Christian there is Christian and then there is non-Christian liberal Christians do not exist
”“ ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.“
Ezekiel 16:49 NIV
The sin of Sodom was sexual immorality in many ways, (“arrogant and overfed” can mean pride and lust), inhospitality, living their way and not God’s way (which applies to a lot). Read Judges 19, where the female concubine was r*ped. Compare these stories to Abraham in Genesis, who was close to God.. you’ll understand that “homosexuality” was not the sin, but living in the world is. Sodom and Gomorrah were densely populated so homosexuality being the one-liner sin does not make sense. The ancient hebrew translation of Jude 1:7 references Sodom “committing ultra prostitution” aka lust, which is universal, but not same-sex attraction.
And they have to ignore the fact that they refused to get it on (very unhospitably) with Lot's daughters, specifically calling for the men.
They're making excuses for their sins, instead of repenting and accepting grace for them. And this "pastor" is leading people to do so.
Any responsible church organization he is involved with, would defrock him immediately.
@MiataKitten I'm not familiar with Catholic liturgy-- does it require its converts to "reject the Devil and all his works and all his ways"?
@MiataKitten Jude 1:7 "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." This is the sin of Sodom. You are right that they had no concept of homosexuality as people do today, because it is not love, it is defilement and curse to the name of God.
The first 4 minutes I get that from his testimony he didn’t change his lifestyle but changed how he viewed god to have a relationship with him. Pretty shaky foundation
In Eastern Orthodox church you will never have questions like this...
Look I grew up reading the kids comic book picture Bible And I still know who's wrong and who's right before even watching this. I'm praying for you, dude. A lot of talk about love. No talk about repentance. All I gotta say is the good Lord rebukes those that he loves.🙏
Well love is the most important thing in God’s creation. However, a good parent always loves their child, that does not mean a good parent gives their child free license or tells them that all behaviors are valid.
@@nickfoster848 True love is not 'do whatever you want, I want you to be happy'. True love is 'do what is best for you, reject what will harm you, I want you to be RIGHT.'
@@colinsmith1495 except that it seems that sin is allowed for the sake of love, via the necessity of free will in a loving relationship.
None are right, it is all fantasy. Jist think about it. The very stories of Adam and Noah are physically impossible, there is evidence something else happened and would result in extinction due to incest.
@@nickfoster848
That still doesn't prove sin exists. Hell the bible says plants were created before the sun at the beginning of genesis.
You should look up Rev. Christopher Yuan. He is gay and is not LGBT affirming. He understands that in his case, to follow Christ means being single in order to strive being holy. Gay people just want religion to change so that they can live how they want to live not how God wants them to live. It's a social construct, not truth. We all have to strive to be obedient to God regardless of the type of sinful desires that we have.
I'm unitarian universalist and a gay man, but I think conservative churches shouldn't be forced to affirm LGBT, since the original manuscripts do have condemnations of LGBT.
I commend this man for having faith and persevering through his own personal struggles as many of us have an ugly cross that we bear. Though I’m not LGBT affirming, I do empathize with how difficult it must be to deal with an attraction that you have little control over. This man is calm, respectful, and you can tell that he is trying to find God.
I noticed that all of his affirming arguments only came from himself. He put his own opinions and feelings above the word of the Lord our God. He even put words in the mouth of God by declaring what is good and evil for God. While I know this man believes himself to be good intentioned, we know what the path to hell is paved with.
Also, i listen to a lot of apologetics for stuff like islam, mormons, lgbt "Christians," gnostics, and other cults, and ive noticed that all heresies or false religions use the word "beautiful" to describe aspects of their theologies
It's not surprising that a narcissist like that would only be comfortable when being affirmed.
He actually said he does not believe the Bible is the infallible word of God, so you can't expect a decent biblical answer in the beginning.
@@crisen_ And he was never so happy, as when he put himself in the place of God.
Saying that the god is uncaused causer is unlogical and creates another paradox - how was god created if there was no one and nothing to create him. We're back again at the question "where did everything come from", but this time it's even more unlogical because why would there need to be another link? Why is it that god appearing out of thin air and then creating the universe is more logical than the universe itself appearing out of thin air? Why would it need to be more confusing. Just because you can't explain how something started doesn't automatically mean that some god created it. At the start of the chain of events there always needs to be a first action. And that action being universes creation is much more logical than god's creation who then creates a universe.
Now suppose there is a god, how would you know that yours is the right one and if the right one is even "discovered". Why would one think that out of all the religions and conspiracies, Christianity is the right one? We as a species need to be always evolving and exploring new things. The moment we stop seeking for answers and start to rely on religion for our answers is the moment objectivity starts dying. Religion is subjective and will forever stay subjective. Science is not, science looks for factual answers that benefit us in the real world. And factually there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's not some kind of a disease and it doesn't need to be and can't be cured. Besides, there's nothing to cure. There's nothing wrong with being part of the LGBTQ, no matter what your religion says.
@@kaurpajula2731 Asking, "what caused the uncaused cause" is very simple.
Nothing. It's right what it says on the tin. I'm not entirely sure how you missed that.
As for whether ours is the right one -- "by their fruits ye shall know them" is one option, and Western Civilization is the most successful civilization on the globe. Our God is worth a look.
Our current problems are directly attributable to declining devotion to God, and rising secularism -- we have a mechanism of action and everything (disappearance of meaning, erosion of s*xual mores, getting mass-murder-happy from 1914-1945, etc.)
If you don't think there's anything particularly necessary about heteronormativity, have a look at our fertility rates. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Anyway, thank you for playing, but you're just rehashing bad ideas from about 20 years ago (which in themselves were a rehash of bad ideas from 150 years before that.)
We're seeing the consequences of a degenerate culture. We are regenerating it, by going back to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Amen.
Beautiful discussion, both parties layed down their opinions and arguments in very respectful and comprehensible ways while genuinely trying to understand the other one's views
I find it funny that Perry affirms biology for his gayness but denies it for a fetus. I agree with zoomer, you need alot of mental gymnastics to get to gay affirming Christianity.
I'd say mental gymnastics extends to modern Christianity at large. The Bible is very clear that slavery is an allowed practice (Leviticus 25:44-45 for example), but yet modern Christians reject this idea along with polygamy which was endorsed by God himself countless times throughout the Bible (an example being 2 Samuel 12:7-8 where it is mentioned that God gave David multiple wives prior to his wicked acts against Uriah). Even exploring the concept of free will within a Christian lens requires much mental gymnastics to explain.
@ChickenSaysBak maybe you shoukd read the new testament. It clarifies the old testament. Of course you can take passages out of context and also you can be ignorant to jewish traditions. What the heck you're only trying to deceive others about God, shouldn't be a problem.....
@@TheMotownPhilly Ah yes, the new testament tells me that slaves should obey their masters and Jesus told a very wise parable in Matthew 25:1-13 about 10 virgins that were going to have sex with 1 man which was a metaphor for those entering the kingdom of God and being God's bride.
Bold of you to assume that I'm unfamiliar with the new testament. And if you would please provide the context that I'm missing, that would be great.
@ChickenSaysBak how ignorant. Go away, you have no understanding of anything biblical. Like I said you take passages out of context without even understanding the real meaning. Go spread your ignorance somewhere else I'm not interested nor do I even want to take the time to explain any of it to you. Believe whatever you want. And yes that is very Christian of me.
I think the testimony of Rev. Perry clearly affirms what Zoomer said in his video about the spectrum of liberal vs conservative Christianity, in how liberalism progresses in stages. Rev. Perry started with LGBTQ affirmation, then maybe the Bible is not infallible, to then universalism, and finally when Zoomer brings up the idea of not believing Jesus is God, Rev. Perry did not seem at all revolted at the thought.
Excellent dialogue here. Thanks to both for this discussion.
As soon as a saw he/they next to Rev Perry's name, I knew exactly how this was going to go.
I personally choose to not argue this particular argument, because of my own past but this much I will say as someone who used to identify as queer.
The way I feel now, identifying as a man who is attracted to women and who desires women, I am much happier than I was before. And I feel more in alignment with Christ within myself.
God gave us free will and I will leave others to walk their path, while expressing love and honor. Have a nice day.
Free will?
@@thomasthellamas9886 Make your point.
@@MatthewInJesusChrist I think if he's coming from a Calvinist perspective then he may be implying that the Bible never says we have free will? As a Calvinist I think we do have free will, but we are still bound by sin. We are free, but it all depends on how "free" free is. Hope this helps
@@MatthewInJesusChrist I guess my claim would be free will is a meme
@@RedeemedReformedRenewed you are making a good distinction between compatibleistic free will and libertarian free will.
Zoomer, I love how kind and listening you are. Please keep having that listening heart and continue standing for the true Gospel. I was so saddened by how distorted Benjamin's view of Jesus is, but so encouraged by your gracious response. You were quick to listen, slow to anger, and slow to speak.
Awesome interview, Ben Perry. I agree with you about so much. Thank you for being on.
10%?!? Is he really still using that bogus stat? It's 5% or less.
More like 0.5% or less. Look at the stats for their getting marriage licenses. It's something like 0.1% of the population.
an article by NBC says that 9% of adults identify as queer, wikipedia says around 10%. please do your reasearch before claiming innacuracy.
@@jimluebke3869 in 2021 5.5% of the us population say that are part of the lgbt
@@jimluebke38693%