Kirsten Flagstad's huge B5s and Huge Marble Middle Voice in Isolde's Curses
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- Опубликовано: 19 окт 2024
- J B Steane for Kirsten Flagstad: Well before…she had had trouble with the highest notes, the Bs and Cs, and going back….in the late 1930s…one hears a voice that is so gloriously
comfortable in the middle and lower registers that one almost begrudges
the necessary excursions upwards….it would be very natural to assume
that she was a mezzo.
Disclaimer - I own nothing
And there’s more than the amazing notes here: the delicious savoring of the words, the biting consonants, the dulcet vowels. I think sometimes I wouldn’t need the music, but the SOUNDS alone - she conveys so much in her concentration on the words!🤩
There was only one Flagstad. I believe this is from the famous and much honored Furtwangler 1952 complete Furtwangler recording, which has NEVER been out of print from the time it was first issued, and for good reason. Probably the greatest Tristan and Isolde recording ever preserved. It's been remastered digitally and sounds better than ever!
it is her only Isolde where she unleashes her top register without fear, in her other earlier Isoldes she touches the high notes only for a second cutting them short
Wow. So beautiful I had to listen to this twice. Rather amazed at the good sound quality as well.
unbelievably beautiful singing
Upmost beautiful singing and classy refined musicianship. Flagstad is unique and far beyond comparison with other singers. Wagner himself would have picked her for all his major soprano roles for sure. Furtwängler and Flagstad partnership put the musical standards in such a high level that all recordings before and after them are very difficult to surpass. Flagstad is the perfect parameter for new opera singers. Her technique is amazing and stylistically atemporal.
These beautiful recordings are like very precious and rare museum masterpieces to be kept for posterity
well in terms of technique, no... a singer who omits almost every C6 or cracks it while trying to sing it cannot be called as having a technique at all... she was a very Natural talented singer with an incredibly beautiful voice and special feeling for Wagner style who was kinda of disastrous when the music became more demanding... I dont know if it were a matter of lack of training or some defect but when there is a C6 in the score, ESPECIALLY a C6 written by Wagner the singer must be able to sing it no matter what without creating to the audience the TERROR that she might crack or the AWKWARDNESS because she omitted it
Lohengrin O She was 57 at the time of this recording! If you listen to some of her live recordings in the 30’s you’lll understand what I’m talking about
Lohengrin O She was 57 at the time of this recording!!! Her prime was is the 30’s and there are plenty of live recordings from this period. You can check her collection of high C’s as Brünnhilde (Siegfried) and Isolde .
I have checked all her C6s from 1935 and forward.. all omitted .. a singer at her 40s singing mainly Wagner couldnt support a c6 at her 40s? are u kidding me? I do love her in her chosen repertoire but the woman had a severely faulty singing mechanism mainly I think because she was a mezzo
Her technique is solid. It’s one of the biggest voices ever. C’s aren’t in the bag for those kinds of voices.
Dramatic sopranos are rarely comfortable with c throughout their career, some never.
What a power ! She is always amazing and superb !
the curse was always good for her. I've talked w/ people that actually heard Flagstad live...they said her voice was like gold, sun-drenched gold that shone through thick orchestral textures. I've heard Nilsson live sev times...amazing she had a more slender voice , silvery very musical & expressive.
too bad though Flagstad omitted almost every single C6 written in the Wagnerian scores even in her very early days... she never sang the sustained C6 at the end of Siegfried in her entire career
@@LohengrinO I also regret that Flagstad did not have a secure top C, unlike Nilsson, who certainly did. In spite of this fact, I have to prefer Flagstad's mighty voice, which was always securely on pitch, unlike Nilsson, who tended to sing a shade sharp. I can more easily accept the absence of Wagner's C6's, resulting in the loss of mere seconds, than I can accept singing that is out of tune for the duration of an aria.
my pitch sense does not understand Nilsson's pitch problem at all.. and as Martha Modl said: "I sang every single C6 that Wagner ever wrote" meaning: u need to sing those C6s, it isnt Donizetti it is Wagner, he wrote them for a reason, so Im afraid I dont agree with you AT ALL
@@LohengrinO I don't understand what you mean when you state that your pitch sense does not understand Nilsson's pitch problem. Do you mean that you don't hear that she is singing a shade sharp, or do you mean you don't understand why she had such a pitch problem? I am curious.
@@karlakor My pitch sense detects only big deviations from pitch like for example Tebaldi's or Rysanek's... to my ears Nilsson is pitch flawless... Pitch sense is not an on and off trait, it has grades, some people have 0 sense of pitch sense (usually Tebaldi fans :D), some have pitch sense 10 (like Mozart)... the rest have pitch sense in between... I would score my pitch sense around 4-5... that means if some singer has very slight deviation from pitch I will probably not sense it that is why I dont sense Nilsson's pitch problems thus I cannot confirm them...
True: let's not forget Astrid Varnay, of course. Another much underrated Wagnerian soprano (younger of course than the aforementioned ones) is UTE VINZING, a real HOCHSDRAMATISCHE SOPRAN.
la beauté de la voix est incomparable, Kirsten est UNIQUE par la noblesse de son chant.
Kirsten Flagstad still in glorious voice as Freia in Solti's famous Decca 'Ring' of around 1960 ...
Fricka. Yes, wonderful.
Flagstad and Nilsso n were the greatest Wagnerian sopranos of the XX Century!
and Astrid
I do find this singing amazing though... but I had to listen to 5 recorded Curse scenes with Kirsten and to choose the one with the LEAST sublime 0:21 so that I could have her B5s unleashed... she just cut them so short even 10 years earlier than this... like singers do when they are afraid to sing the top note...
That's because Joan Sutherland stopped singing Wagner and chose a different path. Or she would've surpassed both.
In fact, Sutherland's voice timbrically and as a texture reminds me of Flagstad's enormously... but Flagstad had no top and Sutherland no low and middle not of wagnerian size... but the word Marble always comes to my mind with both of them as well as an off-white color.. there are some early recordings of Sutherland where her middle voice is solid and powerful but later on I think the Bonynges got afraid of the phrase: when you build well a register another one collapses and the middle voice became a bit weak and certainly not of wagnerian size and ofc the Low voice of Sutherland was never developed well, it was atrophic and of amateur status compared to the rest of her registers
no!!!!!!!!!!!! there is Astrid Varnay
Flagstad as Isolde is one of the highlights in the History of Music
indeed, no C6 in that part :D
@@Nunofurdambiznez just waiting for the "powerful high notes you must listen to! Number 3 blew my mind" videos...
much love for her
FLAGSTAD always sounds like she DOESN T HOLD BACK..and ''Reserves" her voice for "later" ...it s ALWAYS full-bodied..soft or loud...and still leaves listener with the feeling "more if she wished"...but the actual singing is NEVER strained...at any register ..to MY ears not even Birgit Nilsson really had Flagstad power and fullness
To me the voice of the century. And certainly not a mezzo, but a true Wagnerian dramatic soprano, a mezzo could never have sustained a career like that.
a soprano with no secure C6? strange soprano...
@@LohengrinO ruclips.net/video/FF8IKS-DDig/видео.html
@@LohengrinO And apart from the example, having a C6 is not the only, or decisive criterion.
ofc it isnt but a soprano without a secure C6 does not exist... the Triad of the Gorgeous Voices Ponselle / Tebaldi / Flagstad, all with huge sounds as described and gorgeous timbre, all had enormous problem with the C6 while all the Legendary Mezzos of that era had spectacular C6s even D6s... very strange Voices those three, imo they were so Beautiful vocally they didnt bother to train enough to achieve real technique... they were singing with their primary material
@@LohengrinO I find that last remark rather presumptuous nonsense that has an air of what the Germans call Besserwisserei about it. What's the point anyway.
I can hear her chest voice clearly even in her higher register
Τι υπέροχη ανάρτηση! Όνειρο! Η Flagstad φανταστική!
ruclips.net/video/_Ln0PrT7daY/видео.html
Τέλειο! Οι αναρτήσεις σας είναι πραγματικά διαμάντια! Μαθαίνω και εγώ από εσάς γιατί από γερμανική όπερα δεν ξέρω και πολλά. Γενικά την όπερα την ανακάλυψα μόνη μου ακολουθώντας τα συναισθήματά μου και την αγαπώ πολύ!
Τα συναισθήματα είναι ο μόνος τρόπος να ανακαλύψεις και να αγαπήσεις τη Μουσική και την οιαδήποτε τέχνη... Ιδιοφυίες Συναισθήματος ήταν όλοι αυτοί οι Μουσικοί... αμα δεν αισθάνεσαι τίποτα ακούγοντας ένα κομμάτι, χαιρέτατο.. και μολονότι ακούω Όπερα από τα 17 μου και πριν από αυτή τις μεγάλες μη οπερατικές (Fitzgerald, Simone, Streisand, Holliday, Vaughan κτλ) δεν ψέγω καθόλου ανθρώπους που ακούν λαϊκή μουσική εφόσον ΤΗΝ ΝΙΩΘΟΥΝ.. σημασία έχει να νιώθεις
I have a live recording of Tristan from Covent Garden in which during a quiet bit in the prelude you can hear her in the wings trying out a couple of notes. :)
none of them a C6 Im sure :D (soz for being always kinda acidic with Flagstad but I cannot accept a C6-less singer categorized as Wagnerian Soprano)
Have a listen to Flagstad's Kundry (Parsifal Act II to be specific), which can be found on Spotify with pretty good quality. She unfurls those High B flats and B naturals with purpose, support and confidence!
Min 5:49 to 6:00 is a typical moment of a singer sounding so resonant and big that it sound like they literally swallowed a microphone.
ye her two notes were HUGE :D Tebaldi's twin sister
Tebaldi had a big voice but a bigger voice than Callas? Absolutely not. What do you say?
@@beachfanatic2010 how can u know that if u havent heard them in the theatre in their prime? but big or not when u cannot sing a single note in tune...
I assume you are shading Tebaldi who had pitch problems. Well, I always measure vocal size in DUETS, and in projection above choir and orchestra. In all 3 cats Callas wins! I’ve never heard of Tebaldi taking down Del Monaco or overpowering early Verdi huge choirs and orchestration the way Callas did.
@@beachfanatic2010 shading? the woman was always singing a very personal variation of each role she sang... I sincerely believe she was an Acoustic singer without being able to read notes
I only heard this story from a voice professor..who said a gentleman who knew FLAGSTAD from her era...said: that during an OCEAN LINER trip...from europe to america...the days in the atlantic crossing..she would exercise her voice and her roles...in her compartment...singing full voice all the time..but facing the OPEN round hole to the ocean so as not to DISTURB neighbors...
another story was that...in ALL rehearsals...as with MELCHIOR ..the giant heldentenor...others husbanded their voices...but FLAGSTAD NEVER did that...always FULL THROTTLE...and at the end of rehearsals...ALWAYS sounded like she just getting STARTED ..ready for another non-stop full rehearsal...she really must have been THE PERFECT SINGER...MAN OR WOMAN. some writer said..."it was FLAGSTAD TRAGEDY that by the time she was at the greatest bloom of voice...THE very greatest HELDENTENORS esp Melchior were already slowly winding down ...and fromthen on...HER VOICE couldn t really be matched by the coming or her age contemporaries...
maravillosa voz gracias por compartirlo
Fantastica! Sublime!
Shahardad It was in the XX Century (precisely when Callas appeared in the opetatic realm) tharrhe term "SOPRANO SFOGATO" was coined.
I have always been disappointed that there seems to be no film of her singing except for the Ho-Jo excerpt from
The Big Broadcast of '38
I have always been disappointed she omitted 99% of the written C6s :D
@@LohengrinO i'm so disappointed that you only heard opera because of C6s
This is what a call a Falcon Soprano... Not a regular Wagnerian. Same for Jessye Norman, but not the case for Shirley Verret, that was a regular bel canto spinto soprano, she just started has mezzo because of career management, not because she was a falcon.
a falcon without C6? Valentine Falcon from who the term was created had a strong D6 (alla Simionato)
listen to her VERY LAST RECITAL (full orchestra) AFTER she retired from OPERA...reprising some of her most difficult WAGNER selections..(including the LONG arias)...already 60 i think...she sounds MUCH BETTER, THAN many a wagnerian in early 40.s or 50 s who already WOBBLE..SCOOP..WHOOP..cut off high notes...have disappearing middle notes...( no need to name )...from even the 1970 s as STARS at their HEIGHTS...
Sorry: how could I fogot FRIEDA LEIDER? She was another great Wagnerian Singer of the XX Century, whose illustrious name must be added to the list of the aforementioned sopranos. It must be added that Leider's versatility enabled her to tackle works by Gluck, Mozart and Halevy ("La Juive") anong others.
Leider also did Norma in her early days. PHENOMENAL singer.
She had so beautiful voice, one of those closest to my heart. She is my favorite Isolde. It must have been huge wave of sound in the theatre. I've read somewhere that once Ponselle and Flagstad made some competition between themselves about whose voice is bigger and supposedly Ponselle won. I wonder if it's true because Flagstad really had large wagnerian volume.
Also both of them were reluctant to sing high notes and either omitted them or cracked them horribly (ruclips.net/video/9HIhXAHwNeQ/видео.html here is the explanation why Flagstad so often cut short or totally omitted the high notes)
It's awful. So maybe she was natural mezzo? But it's not an explanation for such insecure top. I know that Ponselle had great fear when it was about singing high notes but in her case I suppose that it might be a matter of lack of proper training.
No I hear a soprano alright... but a soprano so star struck by her glorious Voice that she never trained to control her top notes well... and thats the explanation why she kept omitting the top notes.. she probably must have had even worse accidents than that one live
Actually in Ponselle's autobiography top of page 141 Rosa gives the edge in volume to Flagstad.
@@JustMarmalade I always felt that Flagstad was naturally a mezzo who had great top register and could sing soprano roles, but the middle and low register screams a mezzo instrument.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lalagonegaga Didn't know that Leider had also sung Norma. Amazing! In that case, both Lilli Lehmann and she were the only two Wagnerian sopranos (this is what I believe) to have performed Bellini's work. Flagstad is known for having studied the role for two years and then forsaking the idea since she realized that the role was beyond her vocal means (!) and that Bellini and the Bel Canto idiom were totally alien to her.
Rita Hunter sang Norma at the Met in November 1975, with Frederica von Stade the Adalgisa. The New York Times gave her one of the most blistering reviews I've ever read for any singer, which you can read in the NYT Timesmachine Archive. The closest she got to a compliment was Donal Henahan grudgingly admitting she had "a slight reputation as a Wagnerian." which is a little like saying Nilsson was "a passable Turandot" or Leontyne Price "an OK Aida."
Nilsson also said the role was not for her, in her inimitable Nilssonian way: "Too many little notes."
@@maxcornise7204 The other sets may have superstars like Nilsson and Vickers, but the ENO Ring is my favorite, for Goodall's conducting and especially Rita Hunter. I find the creaminess of her tone more appealing than the steeliness of Nilsson's. I've never heard another Brunnhilde bring such tenderness to the Siegfried duet. Have you read "Wait Till The Sun Shines, Nellie"? It's one of my favorite diva memoirs--not a genre noted for frankness and self-deprecating humor. Helen Traubel's is also wonderfully down-to-earth. No wonder she clashed with a haughty Euro like Rudolf Bing!
That huge, mellow middle voice. Very mezzo-ish, and I've always been convinced that Flagstad was really a mezzo.
She sang like a mezzo... but you hear no ceiling in her top register... if a singer can sing up to B5 without sounding pressing her limit is a soprano for me... but she chose to sing like a mezzo.. perhaps too unsure of her top notes.. and I was watching a documentary the other day about her and someone was actually saying: With Flagstad u never had to worry if she would reach the next note.. (ye! because she probably wouldnt reach it at all) I think all these people describing her as the dramatic soprano of the century, never actually listened to her recordings at all...
Yes with Flagstad, she never really had those free, unfurled high notes that Nilsson, Grob-Prandl and Varnay had. Her High C was never that secure...
I think the appeal for Flagstad's voice was her prodigiously huge, gentle yet slightly burnt middle register and unbelievably good diction (Flagstad sounds more German than a lot of German singers).
For me the only Divine element in her singing up to now is when she sings Softly and Suggestive like here: 0:20... and can u tell me where I can find her C6??
omg she goes completely off tune there.. completely that was ghastly.. :D
where is the link u had given me here? I cannot find it...
this sounds more to Late Birgit Nilsson...
u mean it is Birgit? No this is Kirsten alright
Lohengrin O the warm creamy middle and marble lower voice.....then you always hear it's Flagstad. But the metal in her top register...the resemblance with Nilsson is often made. It is said that Flagstad stayed marvelous until her last recording. I have the very last one with organ, she hymns. Marvelous!
I hear Marble all over... as for the top.. Im struggling hard here to find recordings of hers unleashing her top... in all of the other Isoldes of hers she touches the B5s only for a second...
I thought that too. Its the dramatic wagnerian soprano power
Since Flagstad omits much of the high notes that she would encounter in any musical score in her later career, I can't help but think that if she's a wuss to unleash her top register or was she really just unable to sing them?
Wonderful recording by the way. Rivals Nilsson's Isolde.
Not only later... recordings of hers as early as 1935 do not have any high notes.. she was 40 in 1935 and in full vocal prime... I dont think she didnt have the notes, she just never trained enough to learn to control and use them (Fleming also didnt have the best control from C6 and above but she learned to actually access those notes and decently deliver them up to D6 in performances)
Well, Mme Flagstad sang Aida in Gothenburg, which contains an extremely exposed and difficult C6, also operetta and song in her early career. When she arrived in NY early 1935 her Götterdämmerung prologue high C amazed the house from director down. She then went on to sing at a terrible pace around the globe and her voice lost some of its high flexibility.
She has two fantastic C6 in Götterdämmerung under Furtwängler in London 1937, for example. It seems that the second,final C6 in Siegfried is optional and very difficult, I have never heard her sing it in live recordings. But the first one seems to come smoothly until the last Covent Garden in 1951, just as the second one in the final duet with Siegfried in Act One of Götterdämmerung did. She also used to sing the first of Isolde’s two Cs. Helen Traubel had the same problem. Her voice was larger, but I do believe that with a more human work load and interspacing some Verdi in the Wagner-Beethoven repertoire (as she always did in concert) might have spared Mme Flagstad this small problem, that for some writers tend to overshadow her magnificent legacy. It’s such a pity we don’t have live recordings from 25-35, nor her concerts in the 30ies, to assess her full artistic range.
Wagner ist SEHR schwerig FUR mich! DIE DAME SINGT, ABER WAGNER IST WAGNER UNS DAS IST ES!!! VIEL GLUCK UND ALLES GUTE!!!🍀
What year was this recording please..... thanks..
1952.
Shahrdard Her low register and her legato were her weak points as well as her difficulty to sing PIANO. These shortcomings aside, she was undoubtedly one f the best coloratura sopranos of the XX Century.