The PRS Lawsuit - Gibson Fires Back!
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- Опубликовано: 17 янв 2024
- Baxter and Jonathan discuss the latest Gibson/PRS lawsuit! Let us know if you agree with the lawsuits or think its just absurd in the comments!
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Obviously, the two companies care more about the 'Theodore' model than guitar buyers do. In fact, I'd entirely forgotten it ever existed.
It’ll be a bigger deal soon when the USA Theodore model hits the news waves
Dude, those Theodore models sold out in a day. What are you talking about??
Probably all sold to PRS lawyers so they can argue they were confused by the name and thought they were actually buying a PRS, not a Gibson.
@@rxdoctordaddy1795
@@rxdoctordaddy1795 it's going to be a USA/not custom shop model soon. There'll be a humbucker version as well. No walnut stripe down the center.
@@rxdoctordaddy1795They sold out in a day when people thought guitars were investments. I would be willing to bet a kidney people that purchased one thinks they will be worth a million dollars soon.
I am in the auto industry in Dearborn. I find all of this funny because auto makers sue each other literally every day! We have a big building that is full of attorneys. We have a team of people that does nothing but research other manufacturer's vehicles to see what they stole from us. If there is someone that says, "I will never play a Gibson because of their business practices", I would like to see what car he drives, I might have some stories for him.
I will never buy a Gibson because they're an overpriced piece of "okay" musical equipment
😂 beautiful dose of reality
2009 toyota matrix, 2019 Mazda MX-5, 2023 Mazda CX-9, 2009 Subrau STI. Ruin my mediocre cars for me please!
@@zynosgd9982just get a used one. I got mine pretty cheap. You are right, they are average builds.
Tell us some good stories either way 😊
Stop paying the lawyers and sell the guitars for a lower price!
Well, they can't be caught red-handed focusing on building the best guitars for the money! That would just be too easy. They'd prefer to argue over 70 year old intellectual property than build what the modern player wants.
You can't just not pay your bills to save money and pay that savings along to your customers. Not if you want to continue to own your company, because your creditors will be happy to take it off your hands.
I am an old guitarist. I remmeber Ted "Theodore" McCarty as a Gibson employee from a long time ago before ever appearing with PRS as a tribute model to the man. Thats why i dont understand this at all.
His name is on a lot of the patents from the 50s and PRS went to him to learn how they made the Les Pauls back then
Paul Smith basically credits Ted McCarty as his mentor especially in the early days of his company and the two enjoyed a close friendship. Modern Gibson has little to no ties with Ted or the company he ran. If you want a more gibson inspired instrument with closer roots to Ted buy a Heritage
Casino Guitars + Phil McKnight are all I need
You see, Esteban never, I mean never, has been sued over this kind of crap.
Wait till Epiphone sees his logo
Keith Urban is building his case against Esteban as we speak
Yes , the attorneys make money. But they don't instigate the lawsuits. If they take a case, you will pay for their services. Defending a shape, name, or intellectual property valid, and it seems required by the judicial system.
As an attorney and a guitar player, I would’ve passed on these two cases. They are absolutely ridiculous and ludicrous. Then again, I am one of the few that consider our profession a true Vocation in the service of Justice and to uphold our societal values, not a means to take advantage of the Law in order to make a buck.
How wonderfully naive. Of course lawyers instigate. Fat more afternoon than not, civil suits could have been handled with a mediating counselor. Lawyers are the only people telling people to go get money instead.
@@bensepulveda71 What do you mean "take advantage"?
"This is why people hate lawyers." Yes, people hate lawyers -- right up until the moment when they need one. Because people are stupid.
I still hate lawyers even though I need them. They make it really easy.
My best friend is a lawyer. I hate him most of the time.
FACTS!!!
Hey Casino! Quick question, will the Fender CS do a Starcaster?
You guys should talk about Gibson jumping in on the DiMarzio Double Cream lawsuit.
it’s pathetic (and unethical) for PRS suing Gibson after PRS copies Fender. GOOD ON Fender for staying out of the bullshit and not suing anyone - shows their commitment to supporting musicians and not corporate BS
Fender would if they could. They didn't when they should.
So now they can't.
(And Gibson isn't really a saint when it comes to lawsuits...soooo)
PRS has basically copying Gibson also. I mean the McCarty 594 single cut...
No PRS was sued based on the same thing(PRS McCarty 593 singlecut, they also sued heritage guitars), and this is merely a tit for tat because Gibson trolls the industry compared to others. Also technically Fender has no grounds to stand on legally speaking with the body shape itself because of agreements they made during the lawsuit era of Japanese copies, Fender has no issues because they have no need to patent and copyright troll the industry like Gibson does, Gibson is the most aggressive because frankly speaking they are mismanaged and constantly having bankruptcy issues .
I agree
Do you mean the guitar that the Les Paul should always have been in the first place yet failed to be so?
So who's suing Silvetone? Or should Silvertone sue PRS and Gibson? C'mon! There are lawyers out there needing new boats and Porsches!
Gibson would be having a favor done for themself by not being allowed to make the Theodore anymore.
The wild thing about is that even if someone wins both cases, they’re going to make nothing from it and the more likely outcome is paying lawyers millions of dollars. Some people need their heads banging together in both companies.
I think I understand the general principle though. If you have a trademark (I might be mixing my terminology - could be patent) you have to defend it in all cases. You can’t selectively ignore it because it’s a big company with fancy lawyers or because you’re friends with someone and then expect to win other cases that you’ve cherry picked to pursue.
If I was the guy that designed the cup holder for the lawnmower I'd be 😡!
Gibson and PRS team up to sue Solar "S" for using the "S"?
I started laughing when Jonathan threw up his hands at the very beginning. And then: "but the Silver Sky(s) aren't Silver Burst", lol - exactly, and "Should you care?" Thanks for making my day after a trying day at work!
Throw it out. Leo Fender’s name has been associated with Fender, Music Man, and G&L for decades, and not one of those 3 companies have pitched a fit about name use.
First Depending how it’s worded the McCarty estate can sue over name because they only gave permission to PRS to use his name and not Gibson. But it depends on how they word it and legally companies have to ask permission to use a persons name. Like PRS had to receive permission to use Jimi Hendrix in the new amp even though he played Marshall. Marshall has a separate deal deal too but it thru the Jimi Hendrix estate. Gibson didn’t ask the McCarty estate
Second I don’t see how color can be sued unless it is a specific color that is licensed.
Call it the Tulipadore and save the legal fees! Doubt Tesco would sue.
By now someone should be remaking the old mij designs but with modern parts and build quality, a proper tulip or "hounddog taylor" would probably sell well
PRS plan to create more customers in the form of Blooze Lawyers. Genius if you think about it. Both sides of lawyers can celebrate after by buying Private Stocks.
Exactly what i was thinking lol. Two of the biggest lawyer/dentist guitar brands
People want to shit on a $5k Custom, but forget the Dragon, Private Stock, and not least Fender Custom shop charging $20k+ for a copy of, not a beloved multi celebrity owned burst, but a basic tele painted badly by a stoned Satanist, aka Page.
How many companies have the sheer balls to charge 5 figures for a bolt neck? I know at least one!
@rocketpigrecords3719 yeah but PRS business model isn't built around selling limited edition remakes of guitars from 40 years ago. The bulk of their business comes from their SE import line and their S2 American line. Both those ranges top out around $1300 and $2500 respectively
@@daniellowry660 Gibson and Fender basically repeatedly say to their customers: "None of our ideas since around 1960 are good".
@Scott__C exactly. I just wish gibson actually cared about some of their pre 60s designs namely their archtops.
Besides the collectible custom shop editions, wasn’t there originally a plan for Gibson to do a Gibson USA run of The Theodore followed by an Epiphone run? I’m not sure if that was rumor mill or confirmed. Regardless, Gibson definitely said in their RUclips marketing for The Theodore that they would eventually be releasing McCarty’s other “newly discovered” designs from the 50’s. I suspect that’s the biggest concern - that maybe they’d keep using his name on the series of guitars.
That being said, if anything, the Estate has the biggest case. They should be making money for use of his name on guitars.
Not sure either guitar company has a solid case, though I’d lean more in PRS’ direction for a win because that Gibson lawsuit is laughable lol. Apples and oranges.
For the record, I really love The Theodore. Sounds dark and deep, and I love the look - it’s very much from that time period. Everything in the 50’s had tulips - house decor, dresses, accessories, they became popular for people to grow at home or bring back as a bouquet, etc. I preferred the pick guard shape in Ted’s original sketch over the one Gibson ended up changing, though.
The only people who make out, are the lawyers.
Most of the time
Well, Gibson sold guitars using someone's name without permission, so you can argue they also made out.
No wonder high priced attorneys like to decorate their offices with expensive custom shop guitars that they never play.
But the “Theodore” is in production we keep seeing a humbucker version pop up in gibson advertising, like for the new Amps… and the PRS lawsuit against gibson for trying to make more current at the time guitar models in the early 90’s sort of kicked this all off.
Funny stuff guys! I did NOT spill my coffee this time!
I can't see how either of these names would confuse anyone. I can understand defending the shapes and names, but these cases are huge stretches.
It is ALL about the lawyers who, as part of the yearly corporate budget, are on retainer. The corporation would naturally expect some return for that retainer. It's silly to retain legal counsel and then not put them to work once in a while. Chances are it's the lawyers who brought these issues to the surface on the basis that there might be a monetary benefit.
Paul Theodore McCarty, what a legend! Beatles, Gibson, PRS, Wonderful Christmastime song...
Didn't gibson find other designs ted made at the same time they found the Theodore design?
Can't wait for Gibson to win. Prs should focus on their poor qc as it pertains to finish fading and finish lifting with EVERY DYE AND FINISH they have ever used. It's so bad, that they added number 5 to their warranty page.
Wouldn't they have a better case in regards to pickups as opposed to guitar shapes? I mean isn't a humbucker a humbucker?
I would not consider ever buying another Gibson product, although I have owned a '56 Les Paul for 47 years, and I play an older J45 that was a gift. However, PRS products are favorites of mine, and are my gigging guitars.
The mccarty line and custom 22 line came out in 94 not 95 ❤
As the lawyers get richer, they can buy more PRS Cores or FCS or Murphy Lab LPs, and that's good for business, right? right?
That's it! I'm suing them both for being ridiculous!
In the US, you have a constitutional right to have your grievances heard by the courts. Have at it.
I understand the PRS suit of they have a contract with the McCarty estate for exclusive use of his name and likeness. If at some point they want to add a new guitar model and they own the rights to use his name, they wouldn't want to get sued by Gibson for using the Theodore name - especially if they have already paid for the rights to the McCarty brand and its variations and Gibson has not. It's like using an ex employee's name for a product after that person has switched jobs and become famous for their work with the new company.
This is absurd and would only happen in America.
Nope. Trademark disputes happen in every country, and even internationally, between parties in different jurisdictions.
@@sagittated you are very smart.
Remember this folks:
Every expense that these companies incur from paying lawyers and advertising folks is passed on to the consumer.
When you buy one of these pricey axes you are buying some promotion exec a big dinner.
You are paying for a lawyer's vacation.
You are buying a tank of diesel for those Gibson mobile museums.
Gibson spent 100,000$ in print and media advertising alone last year.
That 3000$ axe is a 2000$ axe and you sre chipping in 1000 bucks for legal fees and advertising.
Play what ya want but I gigged for the last 3 years on a Pair of Grotes that cost under 150$ each.....I have been a full time picker most of my life.
The whole biz is based on hype and status symbols and preys on insecure folks who can barely play.
@@drsrsv8884 lol...I am such a peasant I had to Google " projection" just to see if this guy was praising me or cussin' me.
Most of my gigs for 40+ years have paid only about 100$ per man.
I'd feel like an idiot playing anything other than a sub 300$ instrument at any of my jobs.
Plus it is just so fun to out shoot some sporting clays guy who has a 5k$ gun with my 700$ gun
So fun to outcast a guy who has a 1000$ fly rig while mine cost 100$
And a delight to out-play some guy who is playing a 3500$ axe while I have a 133$ Grote.
It makes life fun for me.
Few guitar buyers play well enough to warrant owning anything beyond a 300$ axe. Most need to spend some money on lessons.
@@drsrsv8884 lol....I hafta go back and read these comments every once in a while.
It isn't everyday a person experiences being called a " peasant"
Perhaps back in the day before the internet, but I’m sure people aren’t stupid enough or expect they’re getting a PRS when they buy a Gibson
That's not the only kind of confusion that trademark law protects against, though. Name, image, & likeness laws protect famous people (and their estates) from having someone trade on your name to sell their stuff.
I saw some fairly resent pictures of Gibson USA Theodores, so they're coming back.
You guys …..need to be discovered by more people! You guys are great 🎉
The big guys could learn from Rickenbacker. They have aggressively defended "their" turf for a long time.
Have you guys had any problems from MTV?
Gibson started of the ball rolling way back when when they went after PRS over their singlecut saying it was like a les paul
What a waste of time and energy. It’s a great time to be a copyright lawyer.
PRS is just frustrating me because I love my Prs guitars. Prs is becoming more and corporate and have cunningly used their reputation to give us more plastic on a guitar and charge more money.
but they have sold "faux bone" plastic buttons for a long time now.... I think the shape of the new button is nice
Too many lawyers on staff. This is a ridiculous claim.
Lawyers arent the ones initiating said lawsuits
Greedy asshole corp execs wanting lawsuits PAY lawyers to on staff to do such things.
Lawyers,..having bill to pay,.like anyone else,..do their damn jobs
I'm sure this is as much about the McCarty estate getting some licensing fees out of Gibson, since I'm sure PRS is paying for the name. So I get the family's complaint. I do not understand what PRS is trying to pull. People know that other people can have more than one past job in their career.
I like how "Theodore" was McCarty's nickname and "Ted" was his real name, lol
Theodore was his real name. The Gibson patents are under "Theodore M. McCarty". He couldn't legally use Ted because that was his nickname. These guys don't know what they're talking about.
Gibson should be repeatedly sold... until they find an owner with common sense, who cares about music, and musicians! .....I won't hold my breath. The industry seems to be laughing at them at this point.
Gibson was just an IP portfolio to KKR when they bought it. They specifically planned on suing all competitors as a means of income. We used to call these sorts of firms _patent trolls_ in the software industry. Now it seems that it has become a (questionably) viable business model in nearly every industry. Why innovate when you can litigate? Especially when your company is literally a bunch of blues lawyers.
My 2¢? The countersuit to PRS about the Nebula Silver Sky is just stupid, connecting it to their silver burst finish. Absurd x 1,000. I don’t think the OG lawsuit against Gibson is worth much either, regarding the Theodore, because PRS’ models only mention his last name, and Gibson only mentions his nickname in their model. Plus, those guitars look VERY different from each other. And what guitar player worth his or her salt would be confused by any of this? Anyone guitarist that can fog a mirror knows what Ted’s role at Gibson was, and that he also mentored Paul. Gibson should have locked up any portion of Ted’s name way back, to protect themselves from PRS naming a product line the McCarty. That’s on them.
I thought it was named after Theodore Roosevelt, or Ted Danson.
Signs of desperation. It was never an issue before, now with shrinking sales on the horizon, they are looking for quick settlement money.
I think the counter suit is for annoyance in response to PRS. Anybody could be Theodore. That was Beaver Cleaver’s “real” name too… Gibson probably named it Theodore to avoid confusion with the McCarty in the first place. They probably should have called it the Beaver. This is rich considering PRS does everything he can to be as Gibson like without being Gibson. I used to call PRS guitars Les-O-casters because they are Strat shaped Les Pauls essentially. They look pretty but I’ve never really liked how they play or sound. Most guitar designs today are derivative of the big manufacturers of origin by which I mean Martin, Gibson, Gretsch, Rickenbacker and Fender. These companies created the models all other manufacturers try to emulate. Why buy a derivative guitar? If you want a humbucker or P90 tone use a Gibson. If you want a Tele, Strat, P or J tone use a Fender (or Squier because Fenders were designed to be cheap). Same deal for twangy ‘Tron or Rick-O-Sounds… PRS didn’t come up with mahogany bodies with maple tops… Gibson did. Ted designed the Theodore. Anybody who cares knows his impact on Gibson which is why PRS wanted to work with him. Good luck to PRS because that suit seems weak at best.
Maybe because Gibson makes sh** guitars across the board that's why people go to PRS. If you want a humbucker or p90 guitar, get the thing you want. If you want single coils, get the guitar you want. The electric guitar isn't confined to two brands anymore, and frankly, other manufacturers come out of the woodwork making better guitars anyway.
If any guitar that is set up well, has no hardware faults, and all guitars under the same brand doesn't sound good to you, it's a "you" problem. You lack the chops.
Oh my.... that Penguin on the wall! It may force me to bring about 3 or 4 of guitars.....and most likely some cash, to trade!
can you imagine a world without lawyers? * Lionel Hutz shudders *
Did you ever get a C&D for your logo looking slightly familiar 😂
What it boils down to is attorneys are expensive which makes guitars more expensive! It's sad, because I feel most of these claims are childish and frivolous!
Question: Did McCarty himself license the use of his name to PRS?
Yes he and paul were friends
@@ScottsGuitarPaul is no one's friend. If Paul were an ice cream flavor, he would be pralines and dick.
I won't sleep until it's resolved.
This isn’t even the first time PRS has taken action against Gibson. Take a look at the Nouveau by Gibson / Epiphone Spotlight. Much better case on PRS’ part.
Is this a video about design lawsuits using someone else's copyrighted music??? (Just kidding!) Good video!
Lawyers on both sides make money and buy prs cores
well, with that Gibson logic, sir Paul should sue PRS because the McCarty sounds like McCartney, though not sonically.
Nobody is mistaking the Theodore for the McCarty, it shoulf never be made again because it’s ugly but to each his own, maybe it plays awesome?
Gibson feeling the fact that hasn't been a successful new design Gibson for 60 years lol. I did really like the L6-S when Santana was playing one though!
Meanwhile fender is sitting back with feet up and popcorn in hand , holding back the giggles
Frivolous
So Sears / Silvertone could sue Gibson over Silverburst?
Best news I've heard Gibson getting sued
Well now I just want to know who threatened Casino.
I can just imagine the lawyers from each of these companies getting together for lunch and cocktails, high-fiving each other, and joking about what to sue next.
What,..? You missed the golden GODLEN opportunity to use one of the flawless CSI themes "who are you",.wont get fooled again)and instead used the "Homicide" theme?
I guess The Who's copyright was to expensive
If you ever why people who are supposed to be smart are doing dumb things, they’re probably following attorney advice
Attorneys talk people out of filing lawsuits all the time.
Absurd, both parties!
Lawyers get rich and inturn prices go up!
We all know if you build a cheap guitar. Or a well made expensive guitar, looks cool, you should be able to make some money. Brand name matters a lot too.
Love the Boxing meme! Haha!
Ok so I just did a little amateur research. Go on reverb and type Gibson Theodore. They can't give them away. This lawsuit is just brand marketing 😂
Like the music business, the music instrument and gear industry has some historic ties to organized crime. It's an industry of smoke and mirrors, selling the dream that if a customer buys the right amp, pedals, guitar, etc... they will have the magic needed to duplicate their hero's talent... Every device made, every amp modeled, every guitar homage sells this story in some way. Some small, some large, but it's all about protecting the fairy dust whatever vendor is selling. Things like branding, headstock designs, scratches placed in a certain location by Murphy Lab costing thousands of dollars. Let's take a moment and be honest, it's all bullshit, but people will still buy it. It's no wonder behind the curtain the wizards go to war over this stuff. Thanks for the video.
@@drsrsv8884 I said "the gear industry has some historic ties to organized crime". Here you go: Counterfeit musical instruments, Stolen gear sales, illegal imports and exports, fraudulent on-line sales, protection rackets, money laundering and the list goes on... It's an industry that at the production and retail level is ripe for organized crime to step in and has stepped in and infected it. Does that mean every retail store is part of organized crime? No and that is not what I said or implied.... People are making huge amounts of money off replicating circuits of pedals, you can buy a cheap import from a brand like Behringer or buy some boutique built thing and in many cases, it's the same god damn circuit inside that box and that circuit was copied from some older circuit. No I do not find any of this on the up and up. It's all fucking bullshit and fairy dust. Most of the artist signature models aren't in any way designed by the artist. They are designed by luthiers who then get the artist to play it, maybe change the color of the knobs or fretboard wire type and stamp their name on it to sell, sell, sell... Look, business are in business to make money. We all know that. But you have people buying things they believe were designed by people who did not design them and in some cases didn't even build them... In the 1980s and 90s, we started having luthiers like Ed Roman come out and disclose that often time for special high profile artist, the Gibson and Fender "custom shop" just meant outsourcing the build to a small shop luthier of the players choice and the big manufacturer, knowing their assembly line guitars not up to the artist standards would allow this "ghost building" to happen. Gibson or Fender name on that headstock for the photo ops, but it never came from an assembly line or custom shop actually owned by these companies... Today this still sort of continues... Chip Ellis's custom shop is its own entity but Chip Ellis hand built all of Eddie Van Halen's EVH's Wolfgang touring guitars. If you order a EVH USA Wolfgang, that will come from the Fender custom shop, Chip Ellis's team won't touch it as they are devoted to the elites. A few years back they did sell a limited run built by Chip's team and it was like $13,000 retail... Almost everything gear related that can be lied about to help someone make money has been... It's a dumpster fire of deceit, smoke and mirrors at every step and the really sad thing is none of this gear is going to make anyone a better player.
The Theodore existed?
Gibsuen guitar company
Personally, I am tired of the Gibson lawsuits. I with they could find something better to do with their time, ya know like work on QC, or find a way to lower their prices, or do anything that benefits the customer.
Why hasnt Martha Quinn sued you guys over your logo? :)
Gibson has brand identity with a guitar that looks like a damn tulip. If I was PRS, I wouldn't sweat it. Also, I would like a PRS Paul McCartney signature model. Let me know if you have one. One more thing. If you do NOT find me a Paul McCartney signature model I WILL sue Casino Guitar and all persons affiliated in any way with Casino Guitars. Not limited to but including all family members, neighbors, people that have heard of Casino Guitars and any resident of a state that sells guitars or has thought about selling guitars. GOOD day sir.
It's your typical playground fight, not the first, and not the last.
I'm trademarking 'guitar' and suing all of them.
Isn't this just revenge for the singlecut thing?
Those blues lawyers are going to buy a bunch of Murphy labs with all that law suit money. Gibson we’ll get the money right back
The Silverburst vs Silver Sky suit is so dumb. At the end of the day the Silverburst is a Les Paul/SG/*Insert Gibson model here* first. And the finish is Silverburst. Two companies just needling eachother 🤣
PRS lost the SE ? How so?
With all those lawyers getting rich think of how many Murphy Labs Gibson is going to sell.
So this means a lot of Lawyers get rich enough to buy more PRS 10-Tops or Gibson Murphy Lab. Win for the industry... xD
Lawyers getting rich means more sales of high-end guitars. For blues lawyers, country lawyers, punk lawyers...
And also with thee.
How come gibson doesn't try to stop all the counterfeit guitars coming out of china?
Lobbying the US government is very, very expensive. You can't stop China from selling them in every country just by preventing them from legally entering the US. It's a zero sum game for them.
Besides, replicas are allowed as long as they're not marketed as the real thing. Many luthiers in the US even build LP replicas which generally exceed the quality of the Gibson, such as Slash's original AFD LP. It would be better to focus on making the best guitars.
Mr fender did it with a candle stick in the dining room!
No guitar company out-sues Gibson..
How can PRS trademark the name McCarty when he was someone they employed purely because of his history with Gibson, and people bought the McCarty PRS models precisely because of that history and because of their similarity to Les Pauls? And PRS don't want Gibson to use Ted McCarty's first name to market products similar to those he designed for Gibson, when he introduced three of the five most famous guitar designs when he ran Gibson? McCarty was a Gibson man too and you can't trademark facts.
Gibson is just about to launch a Gibson USA version of the Theodore. You can already see it in their introduction video for their new Falcon amps. ruclips.net/video/r8-DlL5Ux7A/видео.htmlsi=gakCDwz4Dz84hGbP&t=820
You could be right, but in the description of that video they list everything used in the video with a link for it. The Theodore link pulls up the original discontinued version.
@@charlesbolton8471 I think it is legit. Cesar Gueikian leaked a picture from this variant from the Gibson USA factory floor
While Knaggs walks away with the show !