Nice summary. I have experienced this problem on a new Stainless Steel Ruger old Army but not on Uberti, Colt or Pedersoli. Note the .360 calibre is measured to the tops of the lands, not the depth of the grooves which will be closer to .375 which will also be the size of your chambers but as you said the correct ball size is .380 as recommended by Uberti. I use wax under the ball (10% paraffin oil/90% beeswax) which acts as an additional barrier and also discard the factory nipples (you call them cones) and replace them with Treso brand nipples and use Remington 10 caps. These better nipples and caps allow the Colt style Navy and Army revolvers to function as reliably as cartridge revolvers and I have not had a chain fire.
''These better nipples and caps allow the Colt style Navy and Army revolvers to function as reliably as cartridge revolvers and I have not had a chain fire.'' I have been told that this step is important because many chain fires occur at the cap end of the gun.
The late gun writer Elmer Keith wrote of finding an occasional cylinder on an original Colt, Remington and other revolvers that had a few chambers that were drilled oblong at the factory. This created a tiny gap between the projectile and the chamber wall, though a ring of lead was produced. I've been shooting reproduction cap and ball revolvers since 1970, and have never encountered your problem or Keith's, but either is possible. I've experienced multiple ignitions three times in separate incidents, but always with the same cheap, brass-framed "Navy .44" made in the early 1970s. The final time, the ball at 6 o'clock blew into the rammer, expanded its end, and warped the brass frame. I've told shooters for many years to avoid any and all brass-framed cap and ball revolvers because they are made to be inexpensive, so corners are cut. The fit and finish on their steel parts is always worse than the steel-famed counterparts. A good, thought-provoking video. Thanks.
My brother had a uberti 2nd model dragoon that had the same problem. the round balls would fall out under recoil it was under warranty so he ended up getting a replacement that works great.
This is why a chamber should have a slight chamfer around the end, this will have the effect of "squeezing" the ball/projectile into the chamber on loading, any difference in chamber mouth size should be checked before shooting, but in most cases the chain fire comes from the nipple end, the main spring is so feeble on repro revolvers that it allows the hammer to be blown back on firing, this allows gasses to circulate around the rear of the cylinder and ignite following chambers, I always measure groove diameter and ream chambers to .001" over groove size, this produces a slightly tapered chamber as on original pistols.
On my Pietta 1860 Army, the cylinder bores were 0.446". The lands are 0.445" and the grooves 0.450". So after the ring of lead gets shaved during loading the balls were barely large enough to mate with the lands in the barrel. I used a 0.452" reamer to upsize the cylinder bores.
Exactly the situation with my Pietta 1858 Remington. You were reading my mind. I upsized the cylinder bores also to .452 and the improvement in accuracy was amazing. I now use .457 roundballs which makes it convenient since I also have a Ruger Old Army.
I shoot unlubed for at least one cylinder of every shooting session. Never had a chainfire. The one time I had a chainfire, I was using homemade caps. Uberti properly crowns their chambers so flashover doesn’t happen.
It doesn’t matter who builds the pistols, chain fire can occur in any pistol. it can be as simple as a loose cap, a couple of granules of powder over the ball or even smashed between the ball and cylinder wall… it really doesn’t have anything to do with a specific manufacturer at all.
@@archer721 If you examine Piettas, many of the chamber mouths actually curl inwards, making the ball smaller than the diameter of the chamber. It kills accuracy and increases chainfire risk.
I was watching a “gunfight” in the CA ghost town of Calico and the “Sheriff’ who was firing his 1858 Remington repro had a chain fire. So he changed the script and pretended to die since he was out of shots. While it was a fake gunfight it truthfully showed how a chain fire can happen at the worst possible time.
Thanks for sharing! I have chamfered the cylinder mouths on both of my Uberti Walkers; 1 finished, other kit in the white. The first 3/16 of the mouth and throat swage the projectiles as they re pressed into the throat.
YES and NO for the reasons you HAVE covered. Then again long before I tackled black powder I did tons of homework. If your looking I suggest HOMEWORK before your purchase, it helps you BE AWARE
Somethis I also found can cause chainfires is messy powder. If youre using lube sometimes the powder can get stuck around the mouths of the chamber. Powder can be dragged and smeared between the ball and cylinder wall giving you a sort of "fuse" leading to the charge in the cylinder. Oversized lube wads help to arrest some fire that may be trying to find its way around the ball. My cylinders have been reamed to a bigger size to accomodate the actual groove diameter of my pietta and deburred at the mouths. Diameter is uniform along the length of each chamber. Check your cylinders, check your cap fitment, use wads if possible. Grease over the chambers does not seem to help as the first shot will blow a majority of the grease out from the chamber mouths.
In my 1851 navy using .454 balls I’ve never had the experience with any amount of jostling that the balls have moved at all. I know only some newer and older pistols have a slightly different cylinder mouth diameter compared to further down the cylinder.
In 62 years of shooting BP revolvers, and having had dozens of different manufacturers, I've had only one chain fire. And I load loose powder and also paper cartridges. No lube, no greased felt wad, just as they were originally loaded years ago. That one chain fire occurred when a cap fell off from a 1969 mfg ASM Colt 2nd Model Dragoon. The ball skidded down the side of the barrel causing no damage.
Same here. I think people get somewhat overly concerned about chain fires. If they do occur, since the cylinder is not in battery, it doesn't develop the pressure to propell the ball with any significant velocity. I am not saying to be cavilier about them, but it isn't the end of the world if it happens. Just scares the crap out of you and makes alot of fire and smoke!
From what I understand, loose caps are a larger threat to chain fires. (haven't watched the video). I've read a book that stated the author had searched for instances of chain fire. The only one he had come across was someone using small shot and other things as a 'snake gun' that ended up chain firing. As it was greased on the front of the cylinder, the author still didn't think it went from the front of the cylinder, but was also due to loose caps.
Good information and well done. Im no machinist, but I’m having a hard time imagining how it is possible for a reamer or boring bit could produce that situation. Anyway, good job explaining something for percussion shooters to be aware of. O.R.
It’s not a burr but a taper, the ream itself has worn into an taper from the manufacture pushing tooling too far past when it should have been tossed out.
@@geekswithfeet9137 - nope! - your explanation would result in the face of the cylinder being larger than the base and would create a tapered cylinder, it would absolutely not result in creating a burr at the mouth of the cylinder and in no way whatsoever cause the cylinder to be larger at the base and narrow at the opening. It is clear that the face was milled after the cylinders were bored.
@@Sssthpok I've had to throw away several reamers when they get too worn for this exact reason. Your inability to comprehend isn't evidence of it being wrong.
I been shooting percussion revolvers since the late 60's I do cowboy action with percussion revolvers. I had two chain fires once in a 1858 Remington and once in a ASM Dragoon. In the case of the Dragoon I was trying to get a chain fire and had to fire several cylinders to get one. Both guns I bought used.
Very good information. Been shooting BP revolvers for years and never thought of that. Thank you for taking the time to warn us all. I have not had a chain fire yet but I'm still going to check when I get home today. It also happens to be the day my NEW 1860 Pietta army should be waiting for me at the door today so I will check that also. Thanks again.
I’ve had it happen to me once years ago when I forgot and didn’t grease my projectiles as I was told to do by many people. I had 4 chambers go off with one ball weakly hit the back of my truck. Fortunately there is enough gap between the cylinder and frame so that the projectiles left with not building up too much pressure. After that I made sure I either have lube, lubed wads or both, not forgetting. It sure makes a big bang and a large flash.
Very interesting, I have never had this problem but I am glad to be aware of it in case I ever do. I like to tune up my C & B revolvers just like you. Never owned one that I didn't modify. My 1860 new army came with a bead front sight. Can't tell you why, but I replaced it with a nice tall front sight blade made from an AR-15 bolt catch. Looks great works great and right on target at 25 m.
Had a friend chamfer the mouth of each cylinder of my Uberti 1851. The balls are squeezed into the chamber fitting tightly. This greatly improved accuracy.
You also could have used a deburring tool as they should have at the factory, as someone who used to do cnc machine work, I can say that the guy who machined your cylinder probably got interrupted while deburring & forgot to go back & finish the other 5. Shit does happen. It is however a good thing you found that problem before it caused a bigger issue like a chainfire. God is watching you.
Yes this is a common problem, not just with yours. I'm always taking a Dremel to bore out the outer chamber. Each and every chamber on every single cylinder I will do this to before I ever go through this problem. Every other revolver does this...
My Brother had one of those "Josey Wales" pistols and it gave him some powder burns when it blew up lol. I will show this to Him. Maybe get a magnet and get it out of the pond!! 👍🏼
I had this problem on a Ruger Old Army bought just a couple of yeears ago that had been manufactured back in 1978. It had 2 thou burrs on 5 out of 6 chambers. My balls would slide out out under recoil....! I finally figured out the issue and believe the gun had only ever fired its proof shot from one chamber. I used dowel and emery to remove the burrs, took ten minutes, gun now shoots great. Easy fix and I got effectively a brand new gun ;-)
Great video and important information. most of my originals either due to Machining or wear over the years. created a chamfer at the front of the cylinder. it wont cut a ring unless you put in oversized balls. But if you push the ball past the chamfer it will compress a normal size ball in. works great but you have to make sure you seat the ball past the chamfer.
Haven't heard of the burr problem. I have seen a chamber or two that was "out of round" (slightly oval, if you like). I've also seen chambers that varied slightly from one to the next (one 360, one 361, one 359). A proper sized reamer is a good fix for this. But as an FYI, chain fire can occur from the nipple end as well if the caps are too loose. The flame from the fired cylinder can ignite the adjacent caps, similar to the way a flintlock fires, if the caps are too loose and pinched in place. Pinching caps is viable ONLY for a single shot - not a revolver. In fact, the only chain fire I've ever had was when I used #12 caps on #10 nipples. Interestingly enough, a loaded chamber with a cap won't fire adjacent chambers WITHOUT any caps. Which is why I said the effect is similar to a flintlock.
Chamfer tool with fine valve grinding compound used in a hand drill, or by hand. BARELY discernable chamfer. It will put a wee bit of compression into the lead ball also. I read where target shooters also bore or polish a wee bit to uniform the chambers also. Some chamfer a slightly larger amount coupled with a slightly larger round ball, or conical for more compression without the lead debris . Just a bit more to research. Sometimes a chamber will have a burr that causes a gas blowby. A machinist inspection seems to be prudent with these inexpensive tools. Sad to have to inform the general public of MODERN high-speed manufacturing wabbldeegoop!
Thank you for the tip and good video, was thinking of doing this and now looks like we got some confidence in proceeding with the project we had in mind... 💯💥🤠
One of the first things I do on a new revolver is chamfer the edge on all the chambers. In my humble opinion all black powder revolvers are project Guns. Good vid thanks🤠🤠👍👍👍
Have worked with precision metal engineering! Nothing is perfectly, only with in tolerance. A chamber could become bigger further in with slightly faulty manufacturing. I do believe some original cap and ball revolvers cylinders actually where lightly tapered. So you pressed in the bullet really against the walls.
I have the exact pistol in this video (among others) and have zero problems with it. after watching this video, even though never having had an issue… I checked to see if there was any type of ridge/burr and found nothing. The only issue I did have with this pistol was the “BLACK POWDER ONLY” stamped on the barrel and like you I have eliminated this issue 😁
Seal each chamber with lard and beeswax, Make your own 50/50 by melting it down and then cooling into a cake. Helps lube the barrel and prevents flashovers. Add on top of each ball after loading.
Shortening maybe, however it's too runny especially in warm weather. The beeswax stiffens it up slightly so it stays in place for sealing the cylinders. The wax also lubricated the barrel when firing whereas the shortening does not. @@Bronson2024
@@yourredcomrade717 And why not? It won't melt out as the bees wax won't let that happen. All lead if purchased correctly is the right size and a small amount will strip off like an "O" ring when seating. That issue was apparent back in the 1850's, but no more. I'm surprised you even have enough chamber length to accommodate felt wads. Nothing says they'll seal a chamber anyway.
This is a completely new "hobby" I am interested in. Been s Modern shooter for a longtime. This is info really good to know that I never would have thought of
Poor fitting caps and powder leakage/sloppy loading are responsible for most chain-fires with a properly fitting ball. My main C&B shooter is a Beaumont - Adams. It's a mix n match parts gun - and the chamber tolerances are tighter than a Nun's nasty! Pretty sad when a 160+ year old cylinder has better machining than a Pasta Blasta' made last year. Says a lot about Victorian manufacturing!
In Italy, traditionally, they take lunch from 1-3 or 4 pm. I don't know if this is done in the Brescia firearms factories, but they should label all guns before or after lunch, LOL.
If your chambers measure .36 I guarantee your gun shoots like crap....because the groove diameter on current .36 revolvers is .375 and a .36 ball will not grip the rifling at all.
Well… I guess there are exceptions… I have the exact pistol he has in this video. The chambers/cylinders measure out at .360 and the bore is .357 to the bottom of the grooves… and mine is almost as accurate as my Colt Navy produced by Colt in 1971. it’s claimed as a “.36 caliber” but the cylinders are .380 and the bottom of the grooves measure out at .375… so I would actually call it a .38 caliber
It's called a swage fit. The ram swages the ball into the undersize chamber, thus sealing the chamber and tightly fitting the ball securely. That's the theory anyway. It's very rare that recoil can loosen a swaged ball enough that it actually partially rotates allowing an ember past the sheared belt and into the charge, but anything is possible. Best to seal the chamber with bullet lube over the ball. It also keeps the fouling soft, which can really soot up the works in a very short time. There's just no good reason NOT to use it, unless you are being chased by commanches.
.....or you can just chamfer the chamber mouths as Colt did on his revolvers of the period. A simple chamfer tool and handle from Brownell's will get the job done without a drill press.
I had 10+ Pieta rewolwers in hands. All had something wrong with them. Minor things but stil. My friend sell gunpowder guns and he was forced to send one shipment of Pieta 1858 to gunsmith for barrel refinish. End off barrel loked like it was saw of with handsaw... he woud be ashamed to give thouse to customers. I think Pieta have major cuality control problems.
If you can’t feel the burr then it’s probably not a burr, but rather a tapered chamber. The human finger can feel incredibly small surface details. Rather than deburring you probably cut a slight chamfer that compresses on the cut lands enough to snug it up inside. Functionally the same, but technically different.
The first thing you do is disassemble a new replica, demurred, smooth up and better fit all parts and frame, a cone shaped stone I will take, put in each cylinder, turn it by hand for a couple of rounds. Assembly, adjust trigger spring, ready to go
Great information. Most people only swear by grease or wads, while others swear that you dont need any of that and claim that load size is what matters. Never did any mention your made in china pistol being the problem XD
Basically you crowned each one of the chambers in the cylinder! I understand you can do the same with a brass round head screw with a Phillips head. Put some polishing compound on the end of the screw and using a drill or drill press spin it while pressing it against the opening in the chambers. It will bevel the end of the chambers.
Easier to use an inexpensive bore gauge. I use .375 balls in my 1851 Navies and 1861. All my guns are Colt or Uberti. I had one 1851 Pietta and it was not the quality of the previously mentioned brands.
I lube the chamber mouths anyway, just to keep the powder fouling soft, and to keep the moving parts lubricated while I'm shooting. They're dirty guns to operate, even with modern blackpowder substitutes that are cleaner burning. You should work any new gun anyway, or take it to a gun smith and have them do it for you. It's easy work, and there's nothing you can do to damage the gun, as long as you work slowly and only remove a little material at a time. I chamfer the chamber mouths and the forcing cone, as well as removing enough material from the frame to accommodate the loading of conical bullets. The originals could load bullets with the cylinder on the gun, the reproductions aren't quite accurate to the original, and you can't fit a bullet under the loading lever/frame of the gun without removing a little material there.
Unfortunately, there are Normal manufacturing variables. None of the chambers are Exactly the same size, up to about a thousandth as measured on my colt pocket .31 caliber revolver.
The one and only chain fire I have ever had was from a Dixie Gun Works Spiller and Burr, .36. It was made by Uberti, Dixie was the importer, and retailer. I don't think it was caused by improper ball size, improper loading, since I used revolver wads, and a grease patch as well. I think chain fire comes from the cap. I may be wrong, I am sorry for your experience, on your revolver, I have had many cap and ball revolvers of different types and makers, and have never had the problem you had. Did you check with whoever you bought the gun from, or contact the manufacturer? Did you buy it as a finished revolver, or as a kit?
Thanks for a good and clear explanation. I think many people wont attempt the job in fear of ruining the cylinder so whats the alternative? That would be making sure to use Wonder Seals (or homemade) on top of each chamber. The purpose of the seal is to prevent chain fires and I have yet to learn about anyones chain fires who used them. In fact, even with doing the grinding job still use the seals. Powder-wad-ball-seal. This brings up a good question. In the civil war did they take any safety precautions or did chain fires become popular because they didnt?
Good call-out. Wondering if Pietta left a burr when the chamber mouths were chamfered… because you sure can’t make a conical bore with a dead end and the narrow end at the top. I pack my loaded chambers with toilet ring wax to be sure. Never had a chain fire, been avoiding them for 40+ years.
"I Think" My Chain Fires came from the Caped end, but no BFD as I always hold with a Chain Fire in mind. Lose any cap Not in Battery under recoil and you are at risk! O Ya good soft lead will deform or form? to your cylinder at final compression seating if you give it a good final home seating. FYI "I use" a cheap tapering tool or tapered alignment pin with 1 or 2 raps of 1000 grit wet dry paper and give it a gentil twist or two. I use the same tapered cutting tool to make part of my paper cartridge formers out of hard wood as my Dog Targeted my "Capandball" store bought tool and I have tapered a barrel or more for easier loading or ball starting with same tool for $14 so cheap I got a set of 2 sizes off Bay.
This is why i chamfer the chambers it will still shave but it will swage the balls in. I use felt wads to prevent chain fires regardless. It works better since lubing cylinders doesnt work when your gun is warm. It makes the gun a greasy mess.
Good video. If you used a waxed patch over the ball would that help with chainfire issues? Also I've seen some videos where some older guys really force and almost crimp or pinch the caps on the nipples. Does that help? Thanks. I subscribed today.
Wow.... I've heard of this with Piettas..... I've always preferred Ubertis.... It's basically a "Ford vs Chevy" kind of thing..... Some people like one over the other.... Anyhow, I've also heard of chain fires happening from the back side due to loosely fitting caps or badly worn nipples.....
@@chroma6947 .... Now you've got my wheels turning.... I'm curious to know what Models that would be.... I don't know too much about them... I have had many 1858 Remington Armys... Infact the one I have now is an Uberti in all stainless..... And once upon a time I had an open top Colt made by Pietta that I just wasn't impressed with.... It shot ok, but it just looked and felt "junky", and I didn't like how it was fit together.... I pretty much have all center fire stuff, but I like to play with the Black Powder now and then.... I would like to find a older, used Uberti Walker... Always wanted one....
Just get a high speed drill bit close to the size and carefully debur the cylinder. I got three pietas . Two1958 Remington's and a colt navy pocket pistol. Never had a problem with loose balls . I had a chain fire using undersized .451 balls then I moved up to .454 and no problem.
CHANCES ARE THAT A "GUNSMITH" WILL RUIN YOUR GUN, BECAUSE HE WON'T HAVE THE MENTAL CAPACITY TO TAKE A PERCUSSION REVOLVER SERIOUSLY. ASK ME HOW I KNOW. He will then blame the "bad steel" because he knows nothing of the difference between a high pressure (made for smokeless powder) gun verses a black powder gun. I've been harping on this issue for years, as it pains me every time I see someone claim that "shaving lead guarantees a good seal". You can feel the buts if you use a metal pick, very gently, to probe for it. Also, this is assuming that the chambers have not been dinged by the loading ram - a VERY common problem for used guns. You're probably doing it a little bit every time you shoot, and don't know it. Many have spoken of the unsolved mystery of why some perfectly good guns chainfire a lot while others don't. No one who speaks like that understands the extremely simple phenomenon of burred or dinged chamber mouths, yet I can see in some of their photos that the chambers are dinged from the loading ram! Also, I have some guns in which I've chamfered the chamber mouths. Dixie Gunworks recommends and details this process on their website, or at least they did some years ago. Maybe I'm the only one who read it, because I've never heard or seen anyone else mention it. Anyway it works nicely to eliminate all shaving of lead, and instead swages the oversized ball into the chamber. It's a lot nicer to load and shoot when you're not making a bunch of lead rings.
Piettas are fine but they often come with issues to fix, not usually anything major. Part of it is, the designs of these guns are 150 years old and fairly delicate compared to modern guns
Very interesting and extremely informative... Question.. could you list the part number for the Dremel tool you purchased to ream out the .36 caliber cylinder
This racks my brain... obviously, the chamber would have had to be milled from the direction you put the ball in ( because it dead ends essentially at the flash hole). So how could they mill the chamber all the way through, and the start of the hole be smaller when the whole bit would have had to pass through said starting point? Just trying to wrap my head around this. I might be missing something.
"The ring of lead" is caused by a sharp edge on the cylinder not because the ball is so tight in the cylinder. Normally there would be a slight chamfer on the edge so there would be no shearing of lead off the ball, which could actually make the situation worse. The ball needs to be tight to keep from flashing over. I thought that the "ring o' lead" was important so I had a .003" bigger mold made. Still no lead shear. Ball still went in hard as before as the lead swaged into the cylinder as before. Never had a flashover...knock on wood-
Every Pietta revolver has a date stamp on it, either a letter in a box on the side of the barrel or the year on the underside of the barrel. What was that date of manufacture on this revolver? Or did you remove that marking when defarbing it? That would be useful information. In modern reproduction C&B revolvers, chainfires are a non-issue as long as you keep you hands, fingers, and body behind the face of the cylinder. You are not going to destroy the gun.
Nice summary. I have experienced this problem on a new Stainless Steel Ruger old Army but not on Uberti, Colt or Pedersoli. Note the .360 calibre is measured to the tops of the lands, not the depth of the grooves which will be closer to .375 which will also be the size of your chambers but as you said the correct ball size is .380 as recommended by Uberti. I use wax under the ball (10% paraffin oil/90% beeswax) which acts as an additional barrier and also discard the factory nipples (you call them cones) and replace them with Treso brand nipples and use Remington 10 caps. These better nipples and caps allow the Colt style Navy and Army revolvers to function as reliably as cartridge revolvers and I have not had a chain fire.
''These better nipples and caps allow the Colt style Navy and Army revolvers to function as reliably as cartridge revolvers and I have not had a chain fire.'' I have been told that this step is important because many chain fires occur at the cap end of the gun.
Chamfer the chambers ever so slightly, the lead ball will deform to fit the chamber without that lead shaving ring.
I've heard of inconsistent chamber diameters but this is a new one.
I appreciate your practical and economical approach to this problem.
Thank you for the time and effort to help make us black powder types safer!
The late gun writer Elmer Keith wrote of finding an occasional cylinder on an original Colt, Remington and other revolvers that had a few chambers that were drilled oblong at the factory. This created a tiny gap between the projectile and the chamber wall, though a ring of lead was produced. I've been shooting reproduction cap and ball revolvers since 1970, and have never encountered your problem or Keith's, but either is possible. I've experienced multiple ignitions three times in separate incidents, but always with the same cheap, brass-framed "Navy .44" made in the early 1970s. The final time, the ball at 6 o'clock blew into the rammer, expanded its end, and warped the brass frame. I've told shooters for many years to avoid any and all brass-framed cap and ball revolvers because they are made to be inexpensive, so corners are cut. The fit and finish on their steel parts is always worse than the steel-famed counterparts. A good, thought-provoking video. Thanks.
My brother had a uberti 2nd model dragoon that had the same problem. the round balls would fall out under recoil it was under warranty so he ended up getting a replacement that works great.
This is why a chamber should have a slight chamfer around the end, this will have the effect of "squeezing" the ball/projectile into the chamber on loading, any difference in chamber mouth size should be checked before shooting, but in most cases the chain fire comes from the nipple end, the main spring is so feeble on repro revolvers that it allows the hammer to be blown back on firing, this allows gasses to circulate around the rear of the cylinder and ignite following chambers, I always measure groove diameter and ream chambers to .001" over groove size, this produces a slightly tapered chamber as on original pistols.
On my Pietta 1860 Army, the cylinder bores were 0.446". The lands are 0.445" and the grooves 0.450". So after the ring of lead gets shaved during loading the balls were barely large enough to mate with the lands in the barrel. I used a 0.452" reamer to upsize the cylinder bores.
Exactly the situation with my Pietta 1858 Remington. You were reading my mind. I upsized the cylinder bores also to .452 and the improvement in accuracy was amazing. I now use .457 roundballs which makes it convenient since I also have a Ruger Old Army.
I use exclusively .457 balls with felt wads on chamfer cylinders. Never had a chainfire or issue since.
I shoot unlubed for at least one cylinder of every shooting session. Never had a chainfire. The one time I had a chainfire, I was using homemade caps. Uberti properly crowns their chambers so flashover doesn’t happen.
My Chain was with DIY caps and powder! On Lubed cylinders and a 1976 Uberti 1858 kit gun. Good Times.
It doesn’t matter who builds the pistols, chain fire can occur in any pistol. it can be as simple as a loose cap, a couple of granules of powder over the ball or even smashed between the ball and cylinder wall… it really doesn’t have anything to do with a specific manufacturer at all.
@@archer721 If you examine Piettas, many of the chamber mouths actually curl inwards, making the ball smaller than the diameter of the chamber. It kills accuracy and increases chainfire risk.
So you’ve been lucky so far. ANY black powder revolver has the potential for chain fire.
@@rezlogan4787my pieta has been milled correctly. Yet I still get chainfires.
Colt literally had manuals that specifically said "Do not use any lubricant or grease"
If you use properly sized caliber then you are fine.
They must machine the face of the cylinder after the chambers are milled to get that over hang..
I was watching a “gunfight” in the CA ghost town of Calico and the “Sheriff’ who was firing his 1858 Remington repro had a chain fire. So he changed the script and pretended to die since he was out of shots. While it was a fake gunfight it truthfully showed how a chain fire can happen at the worst possible time.
Thanks for sharing!
I have chamfered the cylinder mouths on both of my Uberti Walkers; 1 finished, other kit in the white. The first 3/16 of the mouth and throat swage the projectiles as they re pressed into the throat.
YES and NO for the reasons you HAVE covered. Then again long before I tackled black powder I did tons of homework. If your looking I suggest HOMEWORK before your purchase, it helps you BE AWARE
As a beginner to black powder your video is very informative, thanks.
Somethis I also found can cause chainfires is messy powder. If youre using lube sometimes the powder can get stuck around the mouths of the chamber. Powder can be dragged and smeared between the ball and cylinder wall giving you a sort of "fuse" leading to the charge in the cylinder. Oversized lube wads help to arrest some fire that may be trying to find its way around the ball. My cylinders have been reamed to a bigger size to accomodate the actual groove diameter of my pietta and deburred at the mouths. Diameter is uniform along the length of each chamber. Check your cylinders, check your cap fitment, use wads if possible. Grease over the chambers does not seem to help as the first shot will blow a majority of the grease out from the chamber mouths.
Piettas are great as they make lots of historical models that Uberti does not, but they certainly have their downsides.
In my 1851 navy using .454 balls I’ve never had the experience with any amount of jostling that the balls have moved at all. I know only some newer and older pistols have a slightly different cylinder mouth diameter compared to further down the cylinder.
In 62 years of shooting BP revolvers, and having had dozens of different manufacturers, I've had only one chain fire. And I load loose powder and also paper cartridges. No lube, no greased felt wad, just as they were originally loaded years ago.
That one chain fire occurred when a cap fell off from a 1969 mfg ASM Colt 2nd Model Dragoon. The ball skidded down the side of the barrel causing no damage.
Same here. I think people get somewhat overly concerned about chain fires. If they do occur, since the cylinder is not in battery, it doesn't develop the pressure to propell the ball with any significant velocity. I am not saying to be cavilier about them, but it isn't the end of the world if it happens. Just scares the crap out of you and makes alot of fire and smoke!
From what I understand, loose caps are a larger threat to chain fires. (haven't watched the video). I've read a book that stated the author had searched for instances of chain fire. The only one he had come across was someone using small shot and other things as a 'snake gun' that ended up chain firing. As it was greased on the front of the cylinder, the author still didn't think it went from the front of the cylinder, but was also due to loose caps.
Good information and well done. Im no machinist, but I’m having a hard time imagining how it is possible for a reamer or boring bit could produce that situation. Anyway, good job explaining something for percussion shooters to be aware of. O.R.
It’s not a burr but a taper, the ream itself has worn into an taper from the manufacture pushing tooling too far past when it should have been tossed out.
@@geekswithfeet9137 - nope! - your explanation would result in the face of the cylinder being larger than the base and would create a tapered cylinder, it would absolutely not result in creating a burr at the mouth of the cylinder and in no way whatsoever cause the cylinder to be larger at the base and narrow at the opening.
It is clear that the face was milled after the cylinders were bored.
@@archer721 ok buddy, you have appeared to completely not understood the assignment. Good short man energy though.
@@geekswithfeet9137 no. 'Buddy' - @archer is correct.
@@Sssthpok I've had to throw away several reamers when they get too worn for this exact reason. Your inability to comprehend isn't evidence of it being wrong.
I been shooting percussion revolvers since the late 60's I do cowboy action with percussion revolvers. I had two chain fires once in a 1858 Remington and once in a ASM Dragoon. In the case of the Dragoon I was trying to get a chain fire and had to fire several cylinders to get one. Both guns I bought used.
Very good information. Been shooting BP revolvers for years and never thought of that. Thank you for taking the time to warn us all. I have not had a chain fire yet but I'm still going to check when I get home today. It also happens to be the day my NEW 1860 Pietta army should be waiting for me at the door today so I will check that also. Thanks again.
My Pietta 36cal had same problem but I found out by it would not start a conical, I used a reamer and fixed it.
I’ve had it happen to me once years ago when I forgot and didn’t grease my projectiles as I was told to do by many people. I had 4 chambers go off with one ball weakly hit the back of my truck. Fortunately there is enough gap between the cylinder and frame so that the projectiles left with not building up too much pressure. After that I made sure I either have lube, lubed wads or both, not forgetting. It sure makes a big bang and a large flash.
Very interesting, I have never had this problem but I am glad to be aware of it in case I ever do. I like to tune up my C & B revolvers just like you. Never owned one that I didn't modify. My 1860 new army came with a bead front sight. Can't tell you why, but I replaced it with a nice tall front sight blade made from an AR-15 bolt catch. Looks great works great and right on target at 25 m.
Had a friend chamfer the mouth of each cylinder of my Uberti 1851. The balls are squeezed into the chamber fitting tightly. This greatly improved accuracy.
You also could have used a deburring tool as they should have at the factory, as someone who used to do cnc machine work, I can say that the guy who machined your cylinder probably got interrupted while deburring & forgot to go back & finish the other 5. Shit does happen. It is however a good thing you found that problem before it caused a bigger issue like a chainfire. God is watching you.
Yes this is a common problem, not just with yours. I'm always taking a Dremel to bore out the outer chamber. Each and every chamber on every single cylinder I will do this to before I ever go through this problem. Every other revolver does this...
I chamfered cylinders so lead balls are swagged in instead of cutting to size.
I never realized why people were coning their chambers!! Thanks for explaining it.I now have to check mine,all 4.
My Brother had one of those "Josey Wales" pistols and it gave him some powder burns when it blew up lol. I will show this to Him. Maybe get a magnet and get it out of the pond!! 👍🏼
I had this problem on a Ruger Old Army bought just a couple of yeears ago that had been manufactured back in 1978. It had 2 thou burrs on 5 out of 6 chambers. My balls would slide out out under recoil....! I finally figured out the issue and believe the gun had only ever fired its proof shot from one chamber. I used dowel and emery to remove the burrs, took ten minutes, gun now shoots great.
Easy fix and I got effectively a brand new gun ;-)
Great video and important information. most of my originals either due to Machining or wear over the years. created a chamfer at the front of the cylinder. it wont cut a ring unless you put in oversized balls. But if you push the ball past the chamfer it will compress a normal size ball in. works great but you have to make sure you seat the ball past the chamfer.
Haven't heard of the burr problem. I have seen a chamber or two that was "out of round" (slightly oval, if you like). I've also seen chambers that varied slightly from one to the next (one 360, one 361, one 359). A proper sized reamer is a good fix for this.
But as an FYI, chain fire can occur from the nipple end as well if the caps are too loose. The flame from the fired cylinder can ignite the adjacent caps, similar to the way a flintlock fires, if the caps are too loose and pinched in place. Pinching caps is viable ONLY for a single shot - not a revolver. In fact, the only chain fire I've ever had was when I used #12 caps on #10 nipples.
Interestingly enough, a loaded chamber with a cap won't fire adjacent chambers WITHOUT any caps. Which is why I said the effect is similar to a flintlock.
Chamfer tool with fine valve grinding compound used in a hand drill, or by hand. BARELY discernable chamfer. It will put a wee bit of compression into the lead ball also. I read where target shooters also bore or polish a wee bit to uniform the chambers also. Some chamfer a slightly larger amount coupled with a slightly larger round ball, or conical for more compression without the lead debris . Just a bit more to research. Sometimes a chamber will have a burr that causes a gas blowby. A machinist inspection seems to be prudent with these inexpensive tools. Sad to have to inform the general public of MODERN high-speed manufacturing wabbldeegoop!
Or a glass marble with lapping compound works as well.
Thank you for the tip and good video, was thinking of doing this and now looks like we got some confidence in proceeding with the project we had in mind... 💯💥🤠
One of the first things I do on a new revolver is chamfer the edge on all the chambers. In my humble opinion all black powder revolvers are project Guns. Good vid thanks🤠🤠👍👍👍
Now THIS is the information we need!
Have worked with precision metal engineering! Nothing is perfectly, only with in tolerance. A chamber could become bigger further in with slightly faulty manufacturing.
I do believe some original cap and ball revolvers cylinders actually where lightly tapered.
So you pressed in the bullet really against the walls.
I have the exact pistol in this video (among others) and have zero problems with it. after watching this video, even though never having had an issue… I checked to see if there was any type of ridge/burr and found nothing. The only issue I did have with this pistol was the “BLACK POWDER ONLY” stamped on the barrel and like you I have eliminated this issue 😁
Seal each chamber with lard and beeswax, Make your own 50/50 by melting it down and then cooling into a cake. Helps lube the barrel and prevents flashovers. Add on top of each ball after loading.
You can also use a dab of Crisco Shorting.
Shortening maybe, however it's too runny especially in warm weather. The beeswax stiffens it up slightly so it stays in place for sealing the cylinders. The wax also lubricated the barrel when firing whereas the shortening does not. @@Bronson2024
That doesnt work in warm weather or a warm gun. Felt wads and a proper sized ball with chamfer chambers is more effective.
@@yourredcomrade717 And why not? It won't melt out as the bees wax won't let that happen. All lead if purchased correctly is the right size and a small amount will strip off like an "O" ring when seating. That issue was apparent back in the 1850's, but no more. I'm surprised you even have enough chamber length to accommodate felt wads. Nothing says they'll seal a chamber anyway.
Great info ! I have not had a chainfire yet, but I will def take a look at my cylinders.
Thank you. This is the first time I am hearing about this. I will check my pietta.
This is a completely new "hobby" I am interested in. Been s Modern shooter for a longtime. This is info really good to know that I never would have thought of
My 1860 Army revolver was made by Uberti, and I will check my cylinder. Thank you.
Poor fitting caps and powder leakage/sloppy loading are responsible for most chain-fires with a properly fitting ball.
My main C&B shooter is a Beaumont - Adams. It's a mix n match parts gun - and the chamber tolerances are tighter than a Nun's nasty!
Pretty sad when a 160+ year old cylinder has better machining than a Pasta Blasta' made last year. Says a lot about Victorian manufacturing!
In Italy, traditionally, they take lunch from 1-3 or 4 pm. I don't know if this is done in the Brescia firearms factories, but they should label all guns before or after lunch, LOL.
If your chambers measure .36 I guarantee your gun shoots like crap....because the groove diameter on current .36 revolvers is .375 and a .36 ball will not grip the rifling at all.
Well… I guess there are exceptions… I have the exact pistol he has in this video. The chambers/cylinders measure out at .360 and the bore is .357 to the bottom of the grooves… and mine is almost as accurate as my Colt Navy produced by Colt in 1971. it’s claimed as a “.36 caliber” but the cylinders are .380 and the bottom of the grooves measure out at .375… so I would actually call it a .38 caliber
That's probably a measurement from groove to groove, the lands are definitely not at .375. Land to land should be .36
It's called a swage fit. The ram swages the ball into the undersize chamber, thus sealing the chamber and tightly fitting the ball securely. That's the theory anyway. It's very rare that recoil can loosen a swaged ball enough that it actually partially rotates allowing an ember past the sheared belt and into the charge, but anything is possible. Best to seal the chamber with bullet lube over the ball. It also keeps the fouling soft, which can really soot up the works in a very short time. There's just no good reason NOT to use it, unless you are being chased by commanches.
.....or you can just chamfer the chamber mouths as Colt did on his revolvers of the period. A simple chamfer tool and handle from Brownell's will get the job done without a drill press.
I had 10+ Pieta rewolwers in hands. All had something wrong with them. Minor things but stil. My friend sell gunpowder guns and he was forced to send one shipment of Pieta 1858 to gunsmith for barrel refinish. End off barrel loked like it was saw of with handsaw... he woud be ashamed to give thouse to customers. I think Pieta have major cuality control problems.
If you can’t feel the burr then it’s probably not a burr, but rather a tapered chamber. The human finger can feel incredibly small surface details.
Rather than deburring you probably cut a slight chamfer that compresses on the cut lands enough to snug it up inside.
Functionally the same, but technically different.
The first thing you do is disassemble a new replica, demurred, smooth up and better fit all parts and frame, a cone shaped stone I will take, put in each cylinder, turn it by hand for a couple of rounds. Assembly, adjust trigger spring, ready to go
Great information. Most people only swear by grease or wads, while others swear that you dont need any of that and claim that load size is what matters. Never did any mention your made in china pistol being the problem XD
Basically you crowned each one of the chambers in the cylinder! I understand you can do the same with a brass round head screw with a Phillips head. Put some polishing compound on the end of the screw and using a drill or drill press spin it while pressing it against the opening in the chambers. It will bevel the end of the chambers.
Easier to use an inexpensive bore gauge. I use .375 balls in my 1851 Navies and 1861. All my guns are Colt or Uberti. I had one 1851 Pietta and it was not the quality of the previously mentioned brands.
I lube the chamber mouths anyway, just to keep the powder fouling soft, and to keep the moving parts lubricated while I'm shooting. They're dirty guns to operate, even with modern blackpowder substitutes that are cleaner burning. You should work any new gun anyway, or take it to a gun smith and have them do it for you. It's easy work, and there's nothing you can do to damage the gun, as long as you work slowly and only remove a little material at a time. I chamfer the chamber mouths and the forcing cone, as well as removing enough material from the frame to accommodate the loading of conical bullets. The originals could load bullets with the cylinder on the gun, the reproductions aren't quite accurate to the original, and you can't fit a bullet under the loading lever/frame of the gun without removing a little material there.
Unfortunately, there are Normal manufacturing variables. None of the chambers are Exactly the same size, up to about a thousandth as measured on my colt pocket .31 caliber revolver.
sonny benfield- thats really good information...I,ve been shooting BP since the 70,s .
The one and only chain fire I have ever had was from a Dixie Gun Works Spiller and Burr, .36. It was made by Uberti, Dixie was the importer, and retailer. I don't think it was caused by improper ball size, improper loading, since I used revolver wads, and a grease patch as well. I think chain fire comes from the cap. I may be wrong, I am sorry for your experience, on your revolver, I have had many cap and ball revolvers of different types and makers, and have never had the problem you had. Did you check with whoever you bought the gun from, or contact the manufacturer? Did you buy it as a finished revolver, or as a kit?
Thanks for a good and clear explanation. I think many people wont attempt the job in fear of ruining the cylinder so whats the alternative? That would be making sure to use Wonder Seals (or homemade) on top of each chamber. The purpose of the seal is to prevent chain fires and I have yet to learn about anyones chain fires who used them. In fact, even with doing the grinding job still use the seals. Powder-wad-ball-seal. This brings up a good question. In the civil war did they take any safety precautions or did chain fires become popular because they didnt?
Good call-out. Wondering if Pietta left a burr when the chamber mouths were chamfered… because you sure can’t make a conical bore with a dead end and the narrow end at the top. I pack my loaded chambers with toilet ring wax to be sure. Never had a chain fire, been avoiding them for 40+ years.
You probably got one that was made on late Friday afternoon or early Monday morning??? Great information, thanks!!!
"I Think" My Chain Fires came from the Caped end, but no BFD as I always hold with a Chain Fire in mind. Lose any cap Not in Battery under recoil and you are at risk! O Ya good soft lead will deform or form? to your cylinder at final compression seating if you give it a good final home seating.
FYI "I use" a cheap tapering tool or tapered alignment pin with 1 or 2 raps of 1000 grit wet dry paper and give it a gentil twist or two. I use the same tapered cutting tool to make part of my paper cartridge formers out of hard wood as my Dog Targeted my "Capandball" store bought tool and I have tapered a barrel or more for easier loading or ball starting with same tool for $14 so cheap I got a set of 2 sizes off Bay.
This is why i chamfer the chambers it will still shave but it will swage the balls in. I use felt wads to prevent chain fires regardless. It works better since lubing cylinders doesnt work when your gun is warm. It makes the gun a greasy mess.
I always grease my wheel. No matter what
Good video. If you used a waxed patch over the ball would that help with chainfire issues? Also I've seen some videos where some older guys really force and almost crimp or pinch the caps on the nipples. Does that help? Thanks. I subscribed today.
Good tip. I'm going to check mine out.
0.0001" can be the difference between a friction fit and the ball falling out. Metal is not very forgiving of variation.
Wow.... I've heard of this with Piettas..... I've always preferred Ubertis.... It's basically a "Ford vs Chevy" kind of thing..... Some people like one over the other.... Anyhow, I've also heard of chain fires happening from the back side due to loosely fitting caps or badly worn nipples.....
Generally im a uberti guy but pietta has certain models that uberti doesnt have
@@chroma6947 .... Now you've got my wheels turning.... I'm curious to know what Models that would be.... I don't know too much about them... I have had many 1858 Remington Armys... Infact the one I have now is an Uberti in all stainless..... And once upon a time I had an open top Colt made by Pietta that I just wasn't impressed with.... It shot ok, but it just looked and felt "junky", and I didn't like how it was fit together.... I pretty much have all center fire stuff, but I like to play with the Black Powder now and then.... I would like to find a older, used Uberti Walker... Always wanted one....
That’s pretty interesting, I have never seen or heard of this problem. So did you end up having a chain fire at all?
Just get a high speed drill bit close to the size and carefully debur the cylinder. I got three pietas . Two1958 Remington's and a colt navy pocket pistol. Never had a problem with loose balls . I had a chain fire using undersized .451 balls then I moved up to .454 and no problem.
Thank you.
How did your defarb workout.
CHANCES ARE THAT A "GUNSMITH" WILL RUIN YOUR GUN, BECAUSE HE WON'T HAVE THE MENTAL CAPACITY TO TAKE A PERCUSSION REVOLVER SERIOUSLY. ASK ME HOW I KNOW. He will then blame the "bad steel" because he knows nothing of the difference between a high pressure (made for smokeless powder) gun verses a black powder gun.
I've been harping on this issue for years, as it pains me every time I see someone claim that "shaving lead guarantees a good seal". You can feel the buts if you use a metal pick, very gently, to probe for it. Also, this is assuming that the chambers have not been dinged by the loading ram - a VERY common problem for used guns. You're probably doing it a little bit every time you shoot, and don't know it. Many have spoken of the unsolved mystery of why some perfectly good guns chainfire a lot while others don't. No one who speaks like that understands the extremely simple phenomenon of burred or dinged chamber mouths, yet I can see in some of their photos that the chambers are dinged from the loading ram!
Also, I have some guns in which I've chamfered the chamber mouths. Dixie Gunworks recommends and details this process on their website, or at least they did some years ago. Maybe I'm the only one who read it, because I've never heard or seen anyone else mention it. Anyway it works nicely to eliminate all shaving of lead, and instead swages the oversized ball into the chamber. It's a lot nicer to load and shoot when you're not making a bunch of lead rings.
You have your oppinions on Pietta, i watch videos on the Piettas and all the guys say piettas are a good pistol.
Piettas are fine but they often come with issues to fix, not usually anything major. Part of it is, the designs of these guns are 150 years old and fairly delicate compared to modern guns
Could you feel the burrs with an angled pick drawing outward against the chamber walls?
A very useful info to look out.
Super valuable video, never experienced this but thank you 👍
Thanks for the heads up, Great job 👏 👍
Thank you for this safety tip!
Very interesting and extremely informative... Question.. could you list the part number for the Dremel tool you purchased to ream out the .36 caliber cylinder
This racks my brain... obviously, the chamber would have had to be milled from the direction you put the ball in ( because it dead ends essentially at the flash hole). So how could they mill the chamber all the way through, and the start of the hole be smaller when the whole bit would have had to pass through said starting point? Just trying to wrap my head around this. I might be missing something.
"The ring of lead" is caused by a sharp edge on the cylinder not because the ball is so tight in the cylinder. Normally there would be a slight chamfer on the edge so there would be no shearing of lead off the ball, which could actually make the situation worse. The ball needs to be tight to keep from flashing over. I thought that the "ring o' lead" was important so I had a .003" bigger mold made. Still no lead shear. Ball still went in hard as before as the lead swaged into the cylinder as before. Never had a flashover...knock on wood-
dont you plug the chamber hole afterwards with grease? to avoid chain fires??
Every Pietta revolver has a date stamp on it, either a letter in a box on the side of the barrel or the year on the underside of the barrel. What was that date of manufacture on this revolver? Or did you remove that marking when defarbing it? That would be useful information.
In modern reproduction C&B revolvers, chainfires are a non-issue as long as you keep you hands, fingers, and body behind the face of the cylinder. You are not going to destroy the gun.
Great advice and great solution! 😎
Wish I'd been told in '66 before I loaded grandpa's 1860 Army with .440 RB's. The trigger guard was stamped "44.".......
Try out the 1858 Remington. You will like how much faster you can switch out cylinders.
Great info! Thanks
Thank you. That's excellent and vital information.
What did you do to remove the pietta writing on the sides of the barrel? Great info. Thank you
I used to put corn meal on top of the powder, and lube the ball,so there is less ball jump and it worked for me
Thanks. Great Info for us novices. What Black Powder PISTOL would you suggest for a newbie to start with. Thanks
What about a chain fire from the back of the cylinder, like from loose nipples? Read an article years ago that suggested some were caused this way.
Chainfire happened from behind.
The old guys of cap and Ball era made that clear,they didnt use lube.
Very good info, thanks for your time.
I like how you made it simple and clear.
I'm now subscribed to your channel.
It's better to use the appropriate sized chamber reamer for the proper sizing.
I use Wonder Seals to preclude any chainfires.