J.K Rowling and the Questionable Villain Redemption?⎮A Harry Potter Discussion
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
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JK Rowling has a real problem with forced villain redemptions that makes her writing kind of... eh. I feel like it is quite problematic to create characters as despicable as those we will discuss in this video, and then try to make them overly sympathetic or to give them a redemption. These characters suck, and it's weird she did things this way. Let's discuss.
I'm so happy I'm not the only person who still thought Snape was an ass even after his death scene. I will say I felt sorry for the way he died cause it seemed like that would be painful but yeah, I always saw him as a sad child bullier who needed to move on
Personally I was disappointed that we never saw any memories/stories about how Lily fell for James and how he changed. It was just "he was a bully, but people change over time." I wish this revelation (and a proper explanation) was done around PoA instead of the HBP.
It was this big mystery for me, and I was a fan of the character in fanfiction because we didn't know exactly why he did what he did, but if Dumbledore was a good person (and there is a whole category for when he's not) then Snape was probably on the light side and had something going on that was worth the things he was doing.
But we got this instead, and it isn't a third as interesting as it needed to be and not at all enough to justify his actions from the 5th book on. The hayday for Snape fans was after the 3rd and 4th books - Snape jumped in front of a werewolf for the trio! He acts like a responsible adult when people who might report back about his actions aren't around to judge him! Even the front half of HBP had potential, but then he's just a simp before we knew the word simp and because he had (unrequited, clearly unhealthy, posessive) love for another person that's enough.
Love something not yourself = good person according to Joanne. Sorry, I have higher standards.
Same
@@tylerdun6627 I loved Movie Snape due to Alan Rickman's performance, but Book Snape was moreso an asshole than an overly strict teacher. He got off to bullying kids like Neville to the point that his boggart appeared as Snape
Its always been annoying to me how JK did all of this (especially with Snape) and yet, she thinks Draco - a minor who was brainwashed and forced into all of this by his family - is undeserving of a proper redemption. I remember her tweeting out how horrified she felt that others headcanon Draco to have a redemption arc post-series or something
I recalled hearing how she was disappointed with how many girls sympathized and crushed on Draco because she was worried it would make them engage in toxic relationships.
I guess in her mind, you can't really change until you're an adult and gain more perspective, but since Draco was still a student while she wrote him, she couldn't imagine him being redeemed yet.
@@OpticalSorcerer Kids and Teens can absolutely change. I grew up in a family that had some (let's just say) unsavoury opinions. I parroted those opinions, but around the age of 13, I started to form my own opinions due to events in my life that challenged them. These events were nowhere near as drastic as what Draco went through, but I can imagine he might have come out of that a changed person.
The opinion that children and teens cannot make positive changes to their opinions and lifestyles is uninformed at best and treats children like they're sheep with no brains of their own.
@@Fireberries Not disagreeing, just speculating. That's all.
@@OpticalSorcerer Oh, I know, I was just disagreeing with her possible mindset, not you :)
I think you're right, though, that she must think that way
@@Fireberries Everyone has their own perspective. I think she's made a fantastical world and amazing characters, though I do find it intetesting that she's more invested in redeeming adults vs redeeming the younger generation. Working for your redemption makes sense, buy we don't see a lot of the adults work for it.
I think tom riddle senior was right to abandon merope. I wouldn't want anything to do with someone who drugged/raped me and tryed to frame it as romantic. And we are all born with the ability to change and be better then our parents. Harry himself is the prime example that the mistake of the past don't define our future. (cursed child isn't Canon to me) voldemort chose the way he is, he liked torturing others even as a child. He wanted to be this way and it is no one's fault but his own. Merope set it all in motion. The only part that is sad to me is that merope could not take care of herself without a man. But the end doesn't justify the means
Yeah 100% agree
I love villain redemptions, however the villains have to earn that redemption not just have it handed to them.
I'd argue the earning of the redemption is the redemption itself. And here the author just... Tells us they've been redeemed by showing them not oing awful shit or having characters name their kids after them or whatever
@@szatan9717 Malfoy spends 5 books being an evil little shit bragging that he'd help Voldemort kill all Muggleborns then in Half Blood Prince Rowling expects you to feel sorry for him just because Voldemort threatened to kill his equally evil parents Lucius and Narcissa. Him not killing Dumbledore wasn't redemption nor did it prove he was good deep down. It just showed he was all talk.
@@Xehanort10 i was talking about Snape actually, it seems Rowling really doesn't like Malfoy and she didn't really write a redemption lol
I honestly agree. I have always hated Snape. He bullied Harry for years and he got away with it. If he really loved Lilly, then he should have treated her son better. Also, I’m of the opinion that Dumbledore created Voldemort. He took one look at Tom and heard about the Snake Speaking and treated him as evil. Tom riddle might not have ended up as bad if Dumbledore would have helped him wnd gave him more of a guiding hand. Yes, I understand that Grindwald was going on his rampage of terror, but I feel the need to point out that he sent Riddle back to a warzone.
I don't think it was the Parceltongue that alarmed Dumbledore so much as the fact that Tom showed no remorse whatsoever for the kids he bullied at the orphanage or the fact that he boasted about how he could make bad things happen to people who annoyed him.
@@Bryan198026 Exactly. Dumbledore reacted to the very clear signs of psychopathy, not the Parseltongue.
100% agree with your analysis. It’s mind blowing how snape, malfoy, etc get full absolution at the end despite being HORRENDOUS throughout the series
I honestly love Snape as a character study. Because he doesn't feel like a character, but like a complex human being.
To me, Snape will always be nothing more or less than a petty, spiteful asshole. Even when I read the last book for the first time his "redemption" felt forced.
Here to say that I completely agree with your take and to warn people not to dive too deeply into the comment section, the Rowling stans have already arrived.
Bro this video is reasonable with the info it has but ignorant due to the info it doesn’t or chooses not to include, so lacking and inaccurate based on all info regarding the said topics.
@@denizkenger52 I was only aiming at the people claiming that Rowling isn't a raging transphobe. I've got no issue with anybody else disagreeing with points of the video. What info was innaccurate or lacking, btw? Could you give examples? I'm genuinely curious.
@@b.h.4249 one of the info was her acting like a transphobe and their source being "you know, you've seen it". The problem is, yes I have seen those tweets and they're not transphobic. I can send the ones that people call transphobic and why they are not in a longer comment if you want, it's been widely manipulated and a lot of people are just saying it's transphobic without even knowing what those tweets are.
I'll send a few now so you know what I mean, I can send more of the examples if you wonder after this comment.
A few examples of tweet people say are transphobic and then my explanation why it's not transphobic:
JKR: “‘People who menstruate.’ I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud? “
Saying that someone who menstruates is referred to as a woman. I’ve yet to understand what is transphobic here. Yes, some menstruating women could have transitioned to being men but this wasn’t necessarily a dig at that coz most women who menstruate are women and all are biologically described as women. Also the men who transition to women don’t start menstruating but they still identify as women but this part should take into account that women after a certain age stop menstruating as well and are still considered women. Just coz this reply is saying they’re women for menstruating which is more of a biological thing, isn’t saying those that don’t menstruate aren’t coz it’s a fact that even females at birth don’t menstruate after a certain age but they don’t lose their woman identity due to this, so any trans man taking such offence would be equal to a woman past that age who doesn’t menstruate take offence from it.
She said a biological description, she didn’t deny those who don’t menstruate of being women. She just said those who do are called women, and for those women who transitioned to men without transitioned physically by stopping their menstruation, surely that would mean they are socially/mentally man but not in that menstruation/biological perspective so it would kind of be a hard truth of a transition that isn’t complete because that is the biological description of someone who menstruates.
JKR: “If you believe in freedom of speech and/or think lesbians’ careers shouldn’t be imperilled by a lobby group whose CEO says same sex attraction is akin to “sexual racism”, you might fancy helping Allison out.
(I’ve already put my money where my mouth is).”
She was called anti lgbtq for supporting lesbian rights in a workplace so yeah according to some people she donates for anti trans or anti lgbtq but not all would agree, for this example I don’t think helping a lesbian for this reason makes her an anti trans donator just coz that person sued a trans group later, this wasn’t the reason JKR donated, and idk how helping a lesbian and showing support for those attracted to the same sex is anti lgbtq, this doesn’t add up imo.
JKR has also said these which show she isn't transphobic:
JKR: “I respect every trans person’s right to live any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them. I’d march with you if you were discriminated against on the basis of being trans. At the same time, my life has been shaped by being female. I do not believe it’s hateful to say so.”
This is what she said about sexes which again isn't showing any transphobia:
JKR: "If sex isn’t real, there’s no same-sex attraction. If sex isn’t real, the lived reality of women globally is erased. I know and love trans people, but erasing the concept of sex removes the ability of many to meaningfully discuss their lives. It isn’t hate to speak the truth,”
JKR: “The idea that women like me, who’ve been empathetic to trans people for decades, feeling kinship because they’re vulnerable in the same way as women-i.e., to male violence-‘hate’ trans people because they think sex is real and has lived consequences-is a nonsense.”
Not Transphobic, she just doesn’t think the same as them and for some reason her very reasonable explanation to why she disagrees has been regarded as hate speech/transphobic comments but it isn’t.
This video doesn't provide anything, it's just another example of people who have jumped on the "call JKR transphobic and blame her tweets without showing those tweets" wagon. That's why I called them either ignorant for not having this info, and inaccurate and lacking coz they are making statements with the source they say (the tweets) not supporting the statement but actually going against it.
Also, the popularity is not lower than what it was. Idk what the youtuber means by this. The amount of people who bought the books/films compared to it's release is obviously lower right now but the popularity has increased, even with all the boycotting stuff, more people have gotten to hear about the series, the game that came out has gotten more people into it. What he's saying about sales now compared to upon release don't support the popularity point he made right afterwards.
"now people can't get enough of tearing these games to shreds".
Okay so different intent but the books are still receiving more publicity to criticise it then right? Even his own comment goes against his statement. If people are trying to hate on the books, they are making it gain more publicity and gaining it relevance on social media.
Also, I did research on what these haters do and it's definitely beneficial to JKR and the series. One Canadian person was buying the books in big bulks and reselling them but removing JKR's name from the books, so obviously this person makes profit and scams their own community coz it was way overpriced compared to the price of a normal harry potter book and the initial buying in bulks means sales in Harry Potter books meaning profit for JKR and whoever has rights or shares per book sold, so it definitely was not anything bad for JKR was actually helping her profit. So these hating actually provide popularity for the series and increases sales which it did for hogwarts legacy as well, many people have claimed to buy the game to annoy the boycotters, people have even bought second copies just to make sure the game was a success and the haters get annoyed.
I thought this video was very empty criticism. The redemption thing is very weird to criticise. Snape in the books, and you can search it by finding the word "bully" in each book, is only ever directly mentioned to bully Neville. Yet this youtuber says students and again just assumes his character took part in murder and torture, ignoring the scene in the book when Snape questions the impacts of killing Dumbledore having on his soul regarding killing ripping the soul. This heavily implies he hasn't killed anyone until Dumbledore coz he wouldn't be questioning his soul getting ripped if he has already ripped it so much from his killings that this dude assumes. It's very ignorant and inaccurate to assume this.
Saying Snape cant have redemption and doesn't is genuinely very ignorant. He seems to forget that Snape may have joined deatheaters coz the order (the goodie side) did very bad stuff to him so he would have wanted them overthrown and may have joined deatheaters not because he supported what they were doing but he had the same enemy as them. Sirius attempted murder on him. Dumbledore, head of the order, shushed him about this and denied him justice. James assaulted and sexually assaulted Snape by revealing his pants in front of a crowd just coz Sirius who was bored (same reason for assaulting him) and also threatening to remove his pants in front of that crowd, this all happened during a 2v1 assault not as a joke or a prank. Snape definitely enjoyed the dark arts but there is no mention of his use of it in school, so yes him joining Voldemort was most likely coz he enjoyed dark arts as well but him choosing that side would also be due to his hate on the "good side" coz he suffered true badness from them. The good side wasn't that good, and Snape suffered mainly badness from the good side. Then he spends like 3-4 years as a deatheater, and then the remaining 18 years making up for it and on a mission to make Harry defeat Voldemort. But no, this person says he didn't redeem itself.
Oh and completely ignores, Snape was double agent, he can't act nice to everyone and then switch to Voldemort's side, it has to be believable so it makes sense he treated people rather harsh, it's not good, but it makes their future plans much higher success chance.
@@denizkenger52 Well, I can't disagree on your statement on the popularity, you defintely did your research. Though I think his defintion of popularity was more on the side of positive popularity which has definitely decreased. Most people I know don't really hold up Harry Potter as anything special anymore and most haven't even gone to watch the Fantastic Beasts movies. The hype for the franchise is definitely not even close to what it used to be, considering how much of a massive event the release of the older movies used to be. Even Hogwarts Legacy is not talked about all that much if one ignores the controversy discussions.
When it comes to your opinions on Snape, I don't really agree and there's honestly no right or wrong answer here, these things are always up to personal interpretation. You're perfectly justified in reading Snape that way and Smarty Pants is perfectly justified in his opinion as well. Thanks for the answer, hope you have a good one.
I never got into Harry Potter - not read the books, not seen the films, know nothing about the franchise and literally only recognise Emma Watson - and these days, watching my friends spinning out over all this drama, I feel like I dodged the world's biggest bullet. 😅
You did.
It’s an incredible story, give it a read, you won’t regret it!
Your not missing shit
I’ve never read the books (might one day) but after learning how Snape was shown in the books, I’m kinda relieved that the his portrayal was toned down for the film.
Honestly, I think it actually did the character a favor and made him more acceptable for general audiences because if they showed the nastiness of the book version, it not only would’ve been just child abuse but a mix of toxic enablement.
I think JK did a great job with Draco Malfoy redemption, yeah he was a jerk throughout most the book but once Voldemort took over, it was clear he hated working for him, he hated all the killing going on, theirs a scene in Deathly Hallows where Voldemort tells him to torture a Deatheater that failed and if he doesn't do it right he'll be killed. It's shown that he hated torturing people and regretted ever idolizing Voldemort and only worked with him to avoid being killed. So yeah, I thought JK did a good job with Draco but I agree Snape is still a little iffy
The thing is, deep down nobody really believes nurture plays an immeasurable role in who you are while also believing that YOU play an immeasurable role in who you are, at least not in a consistent way. Deep down people want it to be one or the other(or to veer one way or the other) depending on the situation or depending on the characters they're into, and that's why people can react so differently to the same character. That's why many people are willing to blame Draco's upbringing for his actions while refusing to blame Voldemort’s upbringing for his actions by saying that Voldemort's "just evil".
The Half Blood Prince began a noticeable drop in quality, and the backstory infodumps are a major part of that through the end of the series and into the new FB movies. The redemptions are weak, and Snape was so disappointing to me! It was built up as this mystery - what is motivating him? What is the truth about Snape's loyalties and beliefs? I had to wait years to find out.
We get such weak stories for these characters because JKR does not believe in reforming systems as a solution. She's so conservative that the answer can't be to [like a left-wing reformist] examine where the system has gone wrong and make changes. All the old systems will work just fine if good people run them. Even the house elf situation is fine, actually, we just need to have good owners in charge and make the bad people apologize. 🤨🤦♀️
It examines where the system went wrong pretty clearly imo but it’s also realistic that there’s no simple answer just like with our lives, a buildup of things can affect the pat our lives take, and not just due to things we do or don’t but due to others as well.
@@denizkenger52 That's true, but the answer is always just to put a good person in charge of an unchanged system. Kids get abused by muggle relatives because of their magic? [Snape, Harry, Riddle] Well the Good People will rise above it so let's change nothing. Some House Elves are abused, suffering in different ways? [Dobby, Winky, and Kreture] Just get better slave owners. Rampant racism? [The whole ass society, even Ron is embarrassed by and doesn't socialize with his squip relative] It's fine!
@@denizkenger52ok so literally what changes are made in a post voldemort world to stop this from happening again? And dont say putting death eaters in prison that only stops people who have done it and not those that will
@@katierasburn9571 I didn’t say a solution was always found, I said it examines where the system went wrong but realistic in the sense that all problems within society aren’t just fixed when the big baddie is defeated since not all things wrong with the society are all due to Voldemort.
The books raise attention to slavery with Hermione’s repeated attempts to free houseelves and her failed campaign for their welfare.
The blood supremacy stigmas and beliefs are another issue in society in Harry Potter and most similar to racism in our world, and the books do a very good job to mark this being bad and show it doesn’t matter with Ron (who’s in a pureblood family belonging to the sacred 28) marrying Hermione (a muggleborn) and also defending her when Draco uses slurs against her about her blood impurity. The books repeatedly mark that it’s discouraged, Snape also tells Phineas Black to not call Hermione a mudblood which shows he (as someone who used to use this slur in his youth) has improved and books go towards a more accepting society with the blood purity stigma slowly declining. Voldemort’s defeat would have helped this considering him and his side were rather obsessed with this so his defeat would’ve shown a victory for more accepting of every blood in society. Hermione later becoming minister of magic despite being a muggleborn would show the society has improved to accept this.
Dementors not being guards in Azkaban anymore to basically torture prisoners is a definite change that happened after Voldemort’s defeat which was a bad part of the society to allow prisoners to be tortured there.
It even goes into detail about how the media and the government can be relaying false news to the people for more power dominion. Shows how power can be dangerous (like for Dumbledore in his youth and his later denial of being minister due to himself knowing his vulnerability to too much power). Shows that a power hungry minister (president for us) that is negligent of his duties for the people and stays in his position with media manipulation and lies is not good and shall fail.
It addresses a lot of problems, and realistically, these don’t all get solved in the end just coz Voldemort’s defeated coz bad things can be done by people/groups who aren’t extremists or terrorists as well and just like irl, not everything has an absolute solution.
So my statement that it examines where the system went wrong is true imo, I never said all are solved after Voldemort’s defeat since many existed even before Voldemort’s birth anyway.
I think this is kinda why some book readers tend to dislike these characters and some movie watchers tend to think (x character) is redeemed/misunderstood
I like Book Snape more than movie Snape
@@denizkenger52 Congratulations, you have the ability to say your opinion 👏👏👏
@@beepboop6396 thanks. Congratulations to you as well I guess🥳🥳🥳🥳
Give even the most evil character ever an abuse and bullying backstory and teen fangirls will rave about how they're supposedly victims who just need love and did nothing wrong. If you give a character that origin you have to make clear that while it may explain why they're the way they are it doesn't justify their actions.
I hated Book Snape, but liked Movie Snape because Alan Rickman was a great actor
Most harry Potter characters are 1 dimensional
JK was definitely great at making complex characcters--though I wish it was addressed how who was seen as "redeemed" was a matter of opinion. Harry saw Snape as great in the end, but probably not everyone did.
I saw him as great. But it’s realistic isn’t it that not everyone will like someone.
I wouldn't say that she's especially good at making complex characters, i'd say she's good at adding depth to them... And then, looking at how she keeps insisting that Snape is morally grey, believes that she succeeded at showing the audience what she thinks.
5:44 Yeah the Malfoys running away from the battle is treated as a redemption when it's not.
I think the whole thing with Tom Riddle Senior can be better understood when you take into account the fact that according to British law, men can't be raped by women. That's not trying to side against him, just adding context that not everyone will think of
Yeah, and less than 100 years ago, it was illegal to marry someone of a different race.
The law is sometimes wrong.
@@gameguy20100 That's what I was saying. It's wrong for him to be seen as the wrong doer when he was the victim
4:58 i'd like to also mention that this specific child's parents were tortured into insanity by a completely different nazi cult terrorist. *And Snape still managed to become his greatest fear.*
I really hate how she redeems Snape, Kreacher, Regulus and the Malfoys. They're Nazis. they're evil. Yes, they are human beings, they have motivations. That's nice, but they're evil. They wouldn't be such effective antagonists if they weren't. Even Dumbledore's redemption is ridiculous. In all of these cases, it's not about actually changing ideas and undergoing an arc, but just about personal stakes and consequences. Dumbledore's madly in love with Wizard Hitler Mark 1 until his sister gets hurt. Narcissa and Draco are all about being Nazis until their own lives are threatened. Kreacher and Regulus only care about each other. Snape only turns against Voldemort because his lust object is killed.
She's fine with morality being completely selfish and based only on how things effect them. It's disgusting. There's never a "what I did was wrong" but always "this effects me so it must be bad"
And all of them are contrived, and basically relying on the villain being an idiot. If Voldemort wasn't this unhinged cartoon character, all these fan favorite villains would pretty much stay on his side until the very end. Thing is, she needed them to turn good because she liked them being a bigot herself, so she made up these ridiculous plot contrivances and retcons.
I agree that snapes redemption was horribly written but the rest i Dissagree I didn't fell like we where supposed to pitty Voldomort or his mum and despise his dad not even a little at least that's what I goy out of it.
Just like Luke from Percy Jackson redemption is good but horrible executed
I need to make an “In defence of Severus Snape” video I guess.
"So vocally cruel towards trans people", ah yes. Have you even seen her tweets? That's, like, the most "i don't actually know what's going on but i support the mob" thing you could've said.
💯
All he did in this video was echoing a toxic twitter mob, the same twitter mob that later harassed everyone, who wanted to play Hogwarts Legacy, going so far as to send them death threats.
Sorry, if you read this SmartyPants, but this video is complete trash. Same goes for you ranting about the villains. Giving a villain a motive doesn't automatically redeem them. She didn't try to present the villains as good guys. I agree, that Snape is overrated, but that's about it. People claiming is such a hero are usually fans, not the author.
@@reyk1665 I think Harry, Hermione and Ron are also overrated. So is Ginny as well. Idk y people like them so much.
Harry Potter is unoriginal
Maybe start reading what J.K. actually wrote and what she does, instead of parroting a bunch of people, that harassed everyone involved with a Harry Potter product, going so far as to send them death threats.
Just saying.
Harry Potter is just a LOTR rip off
Mah, more of a "the worst witch" ripoff. And a "books of magic" ripoff. And honestly most magic school books ripoff.
i am going to be honest this was a farce mate i love your content but there was no point in trying to do this as basically every tv show book or movie like this with its villains or like rap music romanticism of gang violence it really just seems as though you are trying to hard to make the narrative in the books evil and morally bad
JK has been loving to humans not cruel to trans people. Your mind is seriously corrupted