I have experimented in Wind turbines for years. It is like comparing Apples and Oranges. There are many different types of vertical turbines compared to Horizontal turbines. There are types of VAWT that use blade lift designs like the HAWT that move faster than the wind moving over them. The difference is that VAWT typically can start under lower wind speeds and can handle turbulent changing lower level wind and react quickly. HAWT are typically mounted up higher in stronger wind. If you match the swept areas and put them at the same height with the same lift style blades , you would be surprised at the results. VAWT are better suited to be set up to take advantage of drag forces on lower level turbulent wind with many magnets on the outer diameter of the swept area at lower speeds or fed into a gear box using mechanical advantage to run a generator or pump water or like uses. HAWT are better suited to take advantage of higher prevailing wind streams at higher speeds where they don't have to make quick adjustment for turbulent winds. A VAWT can start up at a lower wind speed and generate power for longer durations at a lower rate so in a years time it is about a wash between the 2 . A VAWT designed right will never over speed and damage itself. A HAWT will need to be turned out of the wind and maybe even need to use a braking system to avoid being destroyed by wind. I grew up in The Midwest with lots of windmills at shorter heights that relied on the drag effect to pump water and charge batteries for off grid Electric systems. Sometimes they would be damaged by storms but most of the time they had systems to turn them out of the wind automatically to slow them down and protect them.
Dear sir, Your opinions would interest me greatly. I wish to use a hybrid off-grid system that uses both solar and wind energy. Because of the height and space constraints, I intend to employ a vertical wind turbine. mostly for light winds. We welcome any recommendations.
@@sandun4983 It is best if you mount a lift style VAWT on a base that is out away from the home a distance. Install a base that can be tilted down and up with a hand winch or block and tackle anchored to a vehicle or something similar. The other option is a small building to house everything in like a garden shed and tilt the mast or base up against the out building. Keep the charge controllers and inverters in the small outbuilding. Build part of it with an enclosed insulated vented area for the battery bank. You want to keep any fumes or corrosive elements away from the rest of the components. In that same area or somewhere close you might want to have a backup generator that can take over and charge up the battery bank. Most charge controllers will have the ability to turn on a gen set if the battery bank voltage get's to low. Most wind turbine charge controllers also incorporate a dump load of some form. I built many in the past that dumped excess power first into an Electric water heater and then into a standard resistance air heater. Anything over and above what is coming out of the wind turbine to use for charging needs to be dumped into a dummy load of some kind. Usually it is a resistance heater of some kind but anything could be used. So the idea or sequence is Both Solar and wind go into charge controllers or a combination controller inverter designed for it. Anything beyond what is being used at the time goes into the battery bank. It is better to have more battery and less Solar if you have to prioritize for off grid usage. If space is a premium, even 500 watts worth of Solar panels can charge up a massive battery bank if you are not using up the power you are trying to harvest. A good way to look at power needs is first how much 240v power do you require in one day to run major appliances. Then how long and how often do you need them and could a lower power consumption appliance do the same thing more efficiently. Next would be how long can you run with only 120 volt power for smaller appliances that must run. IE .. Reach in freezer, refrigerator, water pumps, lights etc.. Maybe you can cook using a microwave or hot plate or super insulated slow cooker or use gas. Sometimes you can get away with running fans instead of an AC. This is a start. We can keep going if you want to. Without knowing your planned load it is hard to tell you what you need.
@@silverpc4611 All of the better designs are 3 phase out put that needs to be converted or inverted at the point of use. It is more efficient to use three legs or wires of AC power at a higher voltage. It allows you to run the wiring at a smaller size a longer distance with minimal loss. Even a standard car alternator is actually a 3 phase motor that is rectified to DC inside of it. It is actually more efficient to remote the voltage regulator to near the batteries. You still need to run 12 volts out to it unless it is a self exciting winding style Alternator. The best generator design is something similar to a direct drive washer motor. It has a larger diameter stator and rotor and can generator more power at a slower rpm. The closer the outside diameter of the generator is to the outside diameter of the turbine the more power you can generator at a lower wind speed. Here is a link just to show the design I am talking about. www.ebay.com/itm/374136192152?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28 These work well with a drag type or Savonius type turbine. They can even be made cheap from 55 gallon drums cut in half. www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/savonius-wind-turbine As the outside diameter of the generator increases you need slightly more leverage to overcome low wind speeds. Drag types are good for that purpose. You need to match the type to what your prevailing wind speed is and the use. Look at the torque and power the old Dutch windmills had to pump water and grind flour. They worked off of the drag principle like ship sails. They cannot move faster than the speed of wind but the torque could be run through a gear box or pulleys to increase the speed of the generator for more power. It is either speed or torque that get's the work done and they are inverse of each other.
@@desertdan100 do you have any suggestion for vawt that actually work? I have seen mostly disappointing test results and flimsy products. I had the thought of mounting something on the house, but perhaps due to vibrations its not that a bright of an idea? Many small ones?
@@jukkatakamaa7274 Why? Showing that one didn't have enough current to power the LED's is essentially "unfair" too. It would be nice to know the actual difference in output.
@@jukkatakamaa7274 I found a paper by Jazuli Fadil et al which reads: For VAWT we used H-darrieus type whose swept area is 3.14 m 2 and so is HAWT. The wind turbines have 3 blades for each type. The air foil of both wind turbines are NACA 4412. We tested the model of wind turbine with various wind velocity which affects the performance.We have found that CP (maximum coefficient of power) of HAWT is 0.54 with captured maximum power is 1363.6 Watt while the CP of VAWT is 0.34 with captured maximum power is 505.69 Watt. In other words, about 1/3 power difference using those particular blades on similarly sized turbines. Again, while it is "unfair", it would be nice to see some metrics and talk about the coefficient of power of each system. As I mentioned, just showing the VAWT doesn't light up the higher draw LED's is pretty lazy way to show the difference in output.
Wind turbines heights in my town is limited to the closest property line distance. I haven't seen HAWTs that feather their blades for high winds so they need braking. Finally, my best analogy would be that you can cook 1 ostrich egg (HAWT - high power output) or many chicken eggs of the same weight (VAWT - lower individual output adding up to the HAWT). Also with multiple VAWTs one can be serviced while only losing a portion of the output. VAWTs start at lower wind speeds too.
Thank you for the video. For every engineer who has even remotely paid attention in fluid dynamics (even appart from the obvious area-discussion), it is obvious which system will deliver more power (or is more efficient). However, I do think that the vertical axis wind turbine does have their specific applications, especially where space is tight and construction height is limited. Sometimes even a less efficient wind turbine is better than none at all.
Have you seen any vertical wind turbine suitable for somestic areas? I have seen the Icewind turbine but it promises a hefty price tag. Since domestic areas are packed with buildings and people do not want the offer of having a wind turbine potentially come crashing down the turbines has to be mounted on houses, already existing buildings and be pushed by modest winds. What kind of expectations can one have? 100-200 watt, probably less per installation ?
@@davidfurmanski8706 Do you mean the term damned by faint praise? If you do, it means is was weakly praised, maybe so weakly praised that it wasn't really praise at at all, but rather a condemnation.
Every engineer who has remotely paid attention, and knows anything about engineering and fluid dynamics knows that there is sometimes a trade-off between designs which often creates a scenario where a less is actually more. A HAWT will perform better in places with steady airflow and few directional changes such as higher altitude installations and flat open areas, while a VAWT will perform better in areas of turbulence and/or frequent directional changes like you might see in a lower altitude installation in a crowded residential area. Despite the capability of delivering more power, a HAWT may produce less power under some circumstances.
Instinctively it occurs to me that the diameter of both devices is a factor. The bigger the diameter the more leverage the airflow has to turn the shaft. Also if you increase the height of a vertical turbine I imagine you would increase the power available for power generation.
I like the roof line adaptation where they take a bunch of those wind turbines in the style of your vawt, but turned on its side. They are stacked along the roof line to catch the wind running up the roof and are hooded so only the leading blade gets wind. You could also use a verticke stack if those at the corners of the house for a similar effect. Definitely would want dome sound dampening technology there
I can't even count the number of times I've driven through areas with vertical and horizontal wind turbines and seen only the horizontal ones turning. With the horizontal turbine, the wind is pushing against all the blades all the time. But the vertical turbines, by the very nature of their design, have one "blade" moving in the direction of the wind, and one "blade" moving into the wind. So it's fighting itself.
I'd love to see a video comparison of these two turbines, but with the addition of a bypass plate that prevents the wind from hitting the returning blades on the VAWT. These mechanisms could be mechanical and automatically change with the wind direction, a bit like a weather vane, to shield the advancing blades from the oncoming wind.
While he may be right and the vertical turbine doesn't generate the same as a horizontal, the clear benefit is that if the winds constantly change directions, there's no wire to tangle or break because the vertical can take winds from any direction.
I noticed that the generator in your VAWT is different type with in HAWT. maybe this is the main reason that VAWT has smaller power output than HAWT? and the reason it can not make small HAWT turbine rotating
But then how would you be generating power? It's connected to the turbine (or is the turbine). If it's running free, then you're not translating any of that movement into usable energy.
By the vertical you should shade the not working side, which comes against the wind. I think you vould gain some more power. And the shading has to be triangular, to compressing the air to the working side.
MY POINT OF VIEW IS THAT THE SAME BLADE ASSEMBLY BE USED FOR BOTH HAWT AND VAWT, FOR EVALUATING COMPARISON BETWEEN BOTH / FOR ATTENSION PLEASE, MR PHILIP RUSSELL
I don’t understand the conclusion that horizontal turbines are more powerful if the sections of airflow are different. In this case the vertical turbine captures less air.
Thank you for sharing some information with regards to the comparison between HAWT and VAWT in connection to it's performance in generating rotational motion as a means of converting wind power to mechanical then into electrical power.
The horizontal turbine has really small blades and therefore small surface area making contact with the air. Haven’t watched the video yet, but it’s obvious which will preform better
This is not a great test as the Gorlov vertical style turbines are much more efficient and quiet than the vertical turbine you used. Gorlov style turbines also create power in both directions (compared to the wind direction) of the blade so it catches some of the power after the facing blade has caught some. The model you used doesn't do that so is less efficient.
with VAWT there might be less loss due to the direct transfer of power? The HAWT has gears and there is always a percentage lost there. Smaller VAWT and more of them alongside a house ( what I am trying) would seem a good starting place for me I think. Where I live we've had nearly 6 weeks of rain and very little sun but we always have some wind.
Being a science teacher we use numbers all the time. I tried to make the video easy for aa large number of viewers and decided not to bore them with all the figures we got out in the experiment s in the class on the current, voltage and Power. Perhaps I will do this in another video.
Horizontal are more powerful but vertical can fit into small spaces - There is no answer to this - space is the overriding consideratoin. Vertical work in lower wind speeds and might be more suited to an urban environment.
I see so many possible variables which are not addressed, that I, at least as a non-official-scientist makes me wonder if it's valid at all. Is exactly the same motor/generator used in both versions? You changed the angle and even design of blades on the horizontal, but not on the vertical, we never saw the fan generating the wind, much less smoke trails to see if there was different volume of airflow at different heights.. way too many possible variables.
I have read that the horizontal turbines will not spin faster than the wind speed, and that the vertical turbines will spin faster than the wind speed - which makes them more prone to breaking. View some of the videos of the giant wind turbines, burning. I'll take horizontal any day.
I know very little about wind turbines . I do have a horizontal axis one. It spends most of its time changing direction to face the wind. I do not think this would happen with a vertical axis.
Numerous, long-term, independent studies have been conducted on similar-sized horizontal and vertical wind turbines and every time, the horizontal models far outperform the VAWT's. And, every large, commercial wind turbine is HAWT, not a single VAWT. Tiny, plastic models tell us nothing.
@@palanik1960 Right...to me the magnets used for the vertical one would have to be much bigger and different than the horizontal one. They couldn't possibly be putting out the same power. The actual generating part needs to be the exact same for this to be a true comparison. It doesn't look to me there would be enough room in the base of the horizontal one as there is in the larger vertical one.
@@palanik1960 The plastic pieces that are blue should be different but the actual generator that produces the electricity should have the same exact output to be able to have a true comparison of the two different designs.
the problem with a "normal" turbine, its quite daungers to have if its planned to be in a garden. its much and safter to have the horsiontal also much to protect, because there is NO turning parts, that moves, the directions and the BIG wings.. but the power is less on horsintal, but also much easiere to multiplied.. The Main issue for house hold turbines is the NOICE the produce to the envirement. nabos and suchs. the limits is very low and can that be a issue with a horsiontal turbine. or is it possible to make then in a enhanched cabin.. perhaps make to Solar panles lifted and have them between the Roof and the solar panels. that schould reduce the noice from them, and give more options for multiplied turbine generators
The comparison is not valid. The radius of the horizontal axis turbine is greater than the radius of the vertical axis turbine. I think you did your experiment from Guantanamo jail.
@@PhilipRussell I understand about the swept area, I'm a math teacher. But the space occupied by the blades of the HAWT is greater than that of the VAWT. That is a point to consider.
The swept area is about the same according to the manufacturer, but the amount of power produced is very different because of the design and the rotational speed. Other factors are more important than the swept area.
The magnets are definitely much bigger on the HAWT... Now if you make a flat halbach array on the VAWT that would be interesting to see possibly double sided
"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." --- Lord Kelvin
You compared a really small, inefficienty design vawt to a much bigger much better design hawt. Its not a fair comparison. Also, vawt are not as efficient as hawt but have their own advantages that you have to clarify, like using gusts and turbulent flow much better, so works better thsn hawt in built up enviroment.
There are plenty of issues I can see here. First off there are MUCH better vertical vanes that produce nearly the same power. Next vertical requires less maintenance and a whole lot less room. Vertical does not need slip rings for complete 360 rotation that will eventually possibly twist the wires as it turns to face the wind. Vertical can take a lot MORE wind if you get storms and such and the blades do not need to be variable pitch....there is a "perfect pitch". The turbine can be supported top and bottom reducing friction on the generator section. The turbine can be near the ground and the vanes at any height you find best so MUCH easier to maintain (don't have to take it down to work on). The BIGGEST BY FAR to me is vertical doesn't kill birds and bats. Horizontal gens are killing valuable birds and bats by the millions...that WILL come back to bite us. Good vid but no very comprehensive. Check out Robert Murray Smith on here...he's done a couple great videos you might find interesting.
I am building a large vawt using a metal spool that is used to transfer electric cable.. I have a wooden spool also that I realized would make a good base..and I plan to use metal roofing for the booster panels.. The generator will be a challenge as well.
Dear sir, Your opinions would interest me greatly. I wish to use a hybrid off-grid system that uses both solar and wind energy. Because of the height and space constraints, I intend to employ a vertical wind turbine. mostly for light winds. We welcome any recommendations.
That was not scientific, was the generator the same for both systems, what was the RPM of each system, could the vertical maintain the same speed with the same generator. What was the decibel rating of each unit. Nice video though just lacking in information.
Bogus test. Any 2 identical generators at a givin rpm, will produce the same power. If the wind turbines are not designed to give that rpm there is no comparison. Your comparison should look into cost and complexity of each design to produce the same power output. And the efficiency of the design. The vertical axis you showed was not the most efficient.
Unfair and poor comparison, the alternator on HAWT is big , plus more height on HAWT , try using 3 blade "H darreius" design on VAWT , you will get more better results.
how about using the same swept area for a starter! WTF not an equal comparison right out of the gate; I quit watching knowing you're biased to begin with
@@PhilipRussell Not widely used. I've only seen vertical turbines in commercials. In reality, all vertical turbines that I have seen have already collapsed. The physical principles of vertical turbines make them short-lived and ineffective.
This mildly infuriated me.. only because it bothers me to see a comparison between horizontal and vertical turbines when the horizontal turbine is a poor design.. more tall than wide when a much more effective design is much wider than tall. Much more torque and efficiency is achieved with a shorter, wider horizontal turbine design. (Sorry, I describe the turbines by how the blades spin.. the tall one to your left I would call a vertical turbine)
Yes I agree, vawt could be made with a either long blades or blade that are further away from the axis of rotation, this would allow them to spin slower to produce the same amount of power or produce more power if the spin as fast
@@robertrichard2322 Fair enough. Not debating one is better than the other. All I was trying to say was that the gist of the video is stating that Vertical is better. Not my conclusion...just helping save time. Maybe I'll update my wording to reflect the same.
The first obvious difference is that: a) size (swept area) of both turbines is DIFFERENT. You need to compare apples with apples... b) one is lift based, another is drag based...you NEED to compare apples with apples. Otherwise - this is just misinformation...sorry.
The swept area is about the same according to the manufacturer, depending on the configurations. but the amount of power produced is very different because of the design and the rotational speed. Other factors are more important than the swept area. On these models I can change the blades on both turbines and the angles. I can use 2, 3 or 4 blades in each turbine which will change the swept areas. I could have set up the videos with all the maths to prove the same areas for each configurations, but then it would have been a longer and more boring video and here I am just looking at concepts.
These are demo models to teach students all about wind power as an alternative energy source. For that they are worth every penny. For making electricity they are useless buy a real one. My job is education and showing people all over the world wind turbines and fuel cells and solar panel and how they work invaluable. I do a whole series of experiments measuring this in the laboratory classroom but it does take a long time to do and the maths is not for everyone - so just a simple video.
Horizontal turbines much more expensive and comlicated. That is why used more often. All those wind mils subsidase by goverment. Than higher cost than more money you can stil.
You should try connect olds elevator to draw water with a horizontal turbine, turning the tube of the old elevator. This could then draw the water up to a great high with wind power and drop down which then could run a hydro generator is the normal elevator in action. ruclips.net/video/-fu03F-Iah8/видео.html
Who cares? All practical tests of ground-based small wind turbines show: 1) They hardly produce any electricity. 2) They do not last long! No electricity, because there is hardly any wind close to the ground - and electricity yield is proportional to the third power ofwind speed: 100% more wind generates 800% more electricity! Only from an altitude of 100m wind is stronger and more constantly. Moreover, wind close to ground is extremely gusty & destructive to wind turbines. *Due to price decline solar panels generate at least 10 times more green electricity with the same investment! Reliable for at least 25y - maintenance-free.*
Great video!! Thank you!! Question: Would you mind making a video comparing the efficiency of the turbines compared to this ruclips.net/video/S0zF0bFEUrA/видео.html? It would be very interesting to see how much it improves the efficiency of the vertical turbine! Thanks!
Vertical turbines are crap, just ask anybody that's actually bought one and ran it for a while, they're rubbish and it only takes one short docu to tell everybody out there this absolute fact
i started off interested and finished up confused by a word soup that made no sense, contained no real science and had exactly the opposite effect to your stated aim.
This was the first for two videos I created for my students. The first which you watched was a demo of what happens. In the other video the explanation the Law is explained and the video of the magnet is at full speed ruclips.net/user/shortsSVVK0xoEeNk?feature=share
I have experimented in Wind turbines for years. It is like comparing Apples and Oranges. There are many different types of vertical turbines compared to Horizontal turbines.
There are types of VAWT that use blade lift designs like the HAWT that move faster than the wind moving over them. The difference is that VAWT typically can start under lower wind speeds and can handle turbulent changing lower level wind and react quickly. HAWT are typically mounted up higher in stronger wind. If you match the swept areas and put them at the same height with the same lift style blades , you would be surprised at the results.
VAWT are better suited to be set up to take advantage of drag forces on lower level turbulent wind with many magnets on the outer diameter of the swept area at lower speeds or fed into a gear box using mechanical advantage to run a generator or pump water or like uses.
HAWT are better suited to take advantage of higher prevailing wind streams at higher speeds where they don't have to make quick adjustment for turbulent winds.
A VAWT can start up at a lower wind speed and generate power for longer durations at a lower rate so in a years time it is about a wash between the 2 .
A VAWT designed right will never over speed and damage itself.
A HAWT will need to be turned out of the wind and maybe even need to use a braking system to avoid being destroyed by wind.
I grew up in The Midwest with lots of windmills at shorter heights that relied on the drag effect to pump water and charge batteries for off grid Electric systems.
Sometimes they would be damaged by storms but most of the time they had systems to turn them out of the wind automatically to slow them down and protect them.
Dear sir,
Your opinions would interest me greatly. I wish to use a hybrid off-grid system that uses both solar and wind energy. Because of the height and space constraints, I intend to employ a vertical wind turbine. mostly for light winds.
We welcome any recommendations.
@@sandun4983 It is best if you mount a lift style VAWT on a base that is out away from the home a distance. Install a base that can be tilted down and up with a hand winch or block and tackle anchored to a vehicle or something similar. The other option is a small building to house everything in like a garden shed and tilt the mast or base up against the out building.
Keep the charge controllers and inverters in the small outbuilding. Build part of it with an enclosed insulated vented area for the battery bank. You want to keep any fumes or corrosive elements away from the rest of the components.
In that same area or somewhere close you might want to have a backup generator that can take over and charge up the battery bank. Most charge controllers will have the ability to turn on a gen set if the battery bank voltage get's to low.
Most wind turbine charge controllers also incorporate a dump load of some form.
I built many in the past that dumped excess power first into an Electric water heater and then into a standard resistance air heater.
Anything over and above what is coming out of the wind turbine to use for charging needs to be dumped into a dummy load of some kind. Usually it is a resistance heater of some kind but anything could be used.
So the idea or sequence is Both Solar and wind go into charge controllers or a combination controller inverter designed for it.
Anything beyond what is being used at the time goes into the battery bank.
It is better to have more battery and less Solar if you have to prioritize for off grid usage. If space is a premium, even 500 watts worth of Solar panels can charge up a massive battery bank if you are not using up the power you are trying to harvest.
A good way to look at power needs is first how much 240v power do you require in one day to run major appliances.
Then how long and how often do you need them and could a lower power consumption appliance do the same thing more efficiently.
Next would be how long can you run with only 120 volt power for smaller appliances that must run. IE .. Reach in freezer, refrigerator, water pumps, lights etc..
Maybe you can cook using a microwave or hot plate or super insulated slow cooker or use gas.
Sometimes you can get away with running fans instead of an AC.
This is a start. We can keep going if you want to.
Without knowing your planned load it is hard to tell you what you need.
how about the generator design? I see most videos on how the blades are made and not the motor.
@@silverpc4611 All of the better designs are 3 phase out put that needs to be converted or inverted at the point of use. It is more efficient to use three legs or wires of AC power at a higher voltage. It allows you to run the wiring at a smaller size a longer distance with minimal loss.
Even a standard car alternator is actually a 3 phase motor that is rectified to DC inside of it.
It is actually more efficient to remote the voltage regulator to near the batteries. You still need to run 12 volts out to it unless it is a self exciting winding style Alternator.
The best generator design is something similar to a direct drive washer motor.
It has a larger diameter stator and rotor and can generator more power at a slower rpm.
The closer the outside diameter of the generator is to the outside diameter of the turbine the more power you can generator at a lower wind speed.
Here is a link just to show the design I am talking about.
www.ebay.com/itm/374136192152?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28
These work well with a drag type or Savonius type turbine. They can even be made cheap from 55 gallon drums cut in half.
www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/savonius-wind-turbine
As the outside diameter of the generator increases you need slightly more leverage to overcome low wind speeds. Drag types are good for that purpose.
You need to match the type to what your prevailing wind speed is and the use.
Look at the torque and power the old Dutch windmills had to pump water and grind flour. They worked off of the drag principle like ship sails.
They cannot move faster than the speed of wind but the torque could be run through a gear box or pulleys to increase the speed of the generator for more power.
It is either speed or torque that get's the work done and they are inverse of each other.
@@desertdan100 do you have any suggestion for vawt that actually work? I have seen mostly disappointing test results and flimsy products.
I had the thought of mounting something on the house, but perhaps due to vibrations its not that a bright of an idea? Many small ones?
You should have measured the voltage and current of both machines it would have given a clearer picture.
They arent the same sized. Unfair test.
@@jukkatakamaa7274 Why? Showing that one didn't have enough current to power the LED's is essentially "unfair" too. It would be nice to know the actual difference in output.
@@MichaelMammon ...the VAWT is 1/4in capture area...1/4th the power roughly.
@@jukkatakamaa7274 I found a paper by Jazuli Fadil et al which reads:
For VAWT we used H-darrieus type whose swept area is 3.14 m 2 and so is HAWT. The wind turbines have 3 blades for each type. The air foil of both wind turbines are NACA 4412. We tested the model of wind turbine with various wind velocity which affects the performance.We have found that CP (maximum coefficient of power) of HAWT is 0.54 with captured maximum power is 1363.6 Watt while the CP of VAWT is 0.34 with captured maximum power is 505.69 Watt.
In other words, about 1/3 power difference using those particular blades on similarly sized turbines.
Again, while it is "unfair", it would be nice to see some metrics and talk about the coefficient of power of each system.
As I mentioned, just showing the VAWT doesn't light up the higher draw LED's is pretty lazy way to show the difference in output.
@@MichaelMammon ...VAWT does not consume energy itself like a HAWT does. 40% efficiency can be reached easily with a VAWT.
Wind turbines heights in my town is limited to the closest property line distance. I haven't seen HAWTs that feather their blades for high winds so they need braking. Finally, my best analogy would be that you can cook 1 ostrich egg (HAWT - high power output) or many chicken eggs of the same weight (VAWT - lower individual output adding up to the HAWT). Also with multiple VAWTs one can be serviced while only losing a portion of the output. VAWTs start at lower wind speeds too.
Thank you for the video. For every engineer who has even remotely paid attention in fluid dynamics (even appart from the obvious area-discussion), it is obvious which system will deliver more power (or is more efficient). However, I do think that the vertical axis wind turbine does have their specific applications, especially where space is tight and construction height is limited. Sometimes even a less efficient wind turbine is better than none at all.
Have you seen any vertical wind turbine suitable for somestic areas? I have seen the Icewind turbine but it promises a hefty price tag.
Since domestic areas are packed with buildings and people do not want the offer of having a wind turbine potentially come crashing down the turbines has to be mounted on houses, already existing buildings and be pushed by modest winds.
What kind of expectations can one have? 100-200 watt, probably less per installation ?
"Sometimes even a less efficient wind turbine is better than none at all." Damned by faint praise.
@@neddyladdy what do you mean?
@@davidfurmanski8706 Do you mean the term damned by faint praise? If you do, it means is was weakly praised, maybe so weakly praised that it wasn't really praise at at all, but rather a condemnation.
Every engineer who has remotely paid attention, and knows anything about engineering and fluid dynamics knows that there is sometimes a trade-off between designs which often creates a scenario where a less is actually more.
A HAWT will perform better in places with steady airflow and few directional changes such as higher altitude installations and flat open areas, while a VAWT will perform better in areas of turbulence and/or frequent directional changes like you might see in a lower altitude installation in a crowded residential area.
Despite the capability of delivering more power, a HAWT may produce less power under some circumstances.
Instinctively it occurs to me that the diameter of both devices is a factor. The bigger the diameter the more leverage the airflow has to turn the shaft. Also if you increase the height of a vertical turbine I imagine you would increase the power available for power generation.
The comparison would have been more fair if the VAWT had been a similar size as the HAWT and had been on a mast at the same height.
True, or at least the same size with the blades area of the HAWT... as the leg of the VAWT can be shorter in this specific scenario.
I like the roof line adaptation where they take a bunch of those wind turbines in the style of your vawt, but turned on its side. They are stacked along the roof line to catch the wind running up the roof and are hooded so only the leading blade gets wind. You could also use a verticke stack if those at the corners of the house for a similar effect. Definitely would want dome sound dampening technology there
Why not use a voltmeter?
If you direct the fan to help turn the vertical axis machine, will it then run a second fan?
I can't even count the number of times I've driven through areas with vertical and horizontal wind turbines and seen only the horizontal ones turning. With the horizontal turbine, the wind is pushing against all the blades all the time. But the vertical turbines, by the very nature of their design, have one "blade" moving in the direction of the wind, and one "blade" moving into the wind. So it's fighting itself.
You are awesome and amazing
Thanks for making it simple to understand.
God-bless you and your family
Chief
I appreciate that!
I'd love to see a video comparison of these two turbines, but with the addition of a bypass plate that prevents the wind from hitting the returning blades on the VAWT. These mechanisms could be mechanical and automatically change with the wind direction, a bit like a weather vane, to shield the advancing blades from the oncoming wind.
Very good Demo by you, comparison
Both VAWT AND HAWT 🌹🌹🌹🌹👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
There are absolutely different parameters of the turbines. Horisontal is much bigger.
I agree the blades are easily twice maybe three times as long which certainly increases the power output at similar speeds
While he may be right and the vertical turbine doesn't generate the same as a horizontal, the clear benefit is that if the winds constantly change directions, there's no wire to tangle or break because the vertical can take winds from any direction.
On the hawt, when you first adjusted the wide blades. You turned 2 in one direction and the 3rd in the opposite direction. That is why it was slow
Some vawt designs like the lenz turbine are able to use both drag and lift and produce torque in both advancing and returning blades.
I noticed that the generator in your VAWT is different type with in HAWT. maybe this is the main reason that VAWT has smaller power output than HAWT? and the reason it can not make small HAWT turbine rotating
Thanks so much for the vids; you're going straight on my 'show the pupils this' list
Do they have the same motor? I fee, like youare comparing oranges to apples.
Very good... But, U don't show what kind of generator is using each one of them??? 🤔🤔🤔🤔 Vertical turns faster than horizontal
on the slower 1 can u use magnets to take the weight.so it lifts it off the base and runs free
But then how would you be generating power? It's connected to the turbine (or is the turbine). If it's running free, then you're not translating any of that movement into usable energy.
By the vertical you should shade the not working side, which comes against the wind. I think you vould gain some more power. And the shading has to be triangular, to compressing the air to the working side.
but more expensive and complicated
MY POINT OF VIEW IS THAT THE SAME BLADE ASSEMBLY BE USED FOR BOTH HAWT AND VAWT, FOR EVALUATING COMPARISON BETWEEN BOTH / FOR ATTENSION
PLEASE, MR PHILIP RUSSELL
At 4:54 you have put 2 blades for counter clockwise rotation and 1 blade for clockwise rotation. Not optimal.
well spotted. In fact it made little difference. We had filmed this several times and the wrong one went into the production
@@PhilipRussell How can a one bladed turbine be 'little different' from a three bladed turbine?
MR PHILIP RUSSELL, I AM INTERESTED IN MATHEMATICAL REASONING THAT HAWT IS GOOD BUT VAWT IS NOT GOOD?
Which is best one?
I don’t understand the conclusion that horizontal turbines are more powerful if the sections of airflow are different. In this case the vertical turbine captures less air.
Thank you for sharing some information with regards to the comparison between HAWT and VAWT in connection to it's performance in generating rotational motion as a means of converting wind power to mechanical then into electrical power.
Can you take a horizontal turbine generator and use it as a vertical line generator ?
The horizontal turbine has really small blades and therefore small surface area making contact with the air. Haven’t watched the video yet, but it’s obvious which will preform better
This is not a great test as the Gorlov vertical style turbines are much more efficient and quiet than the vertical turbine you used. Gorlov style turbines also create power in both directions (compared to the wind direction) of the blade so it catches some of the power after the facing blade has caught some. The model you used doesn't do that so is less efficient.
with VAWT there might be less loss due to the direct transfer of power? The HAWT has gears and there is always a percentage lost there. Smaller VAWT and more of them alongside a house ( what I am trying) would seem a good starting place for me I think. Where I live we've had nearly 6 weeks of rain and very little sun but we always have some wind.
Dove posso acquistare ?
where can i buy?
where can i buy? In Italy
Blinkenlights are pretty, but do you have an aversion to Numbers? How about some actual statistics maybe?
Being a science teacher we use numbers all the time. I tried to make the video easy for aa large number of viewers and decided not to bore them with all the figures we got out in the experiment s in the class on the current, voltage and Power. Perhaps I will do this in another video.
Conclusion is whihc is the best?
Horizontal are more powerful but vertical can fit into small spaces - There is no answer to this - space is the overriding consideratoin. Vertical work in lower wind speeds and might be more suited to an urban environment.
Adding gears to the vertical would help. If the vertical turbine was directly in front of the wind I doubt it would deliver nearly the same energy.
Thank you
I see so many possible variables which are not addressed, that I, at least as a non-official-scientist makes me wonder if it's valid at all. Is exactly the same motor/generator used in both versions? You changed the angle and even design of blades on the horizontal, but not on the vertical, we never saw the fan generating the wind, much less smoke trails to see if there was different volume of airflow at different heights.. way too many possible variables.
I have read that the horizontal turbines will not spin faster than the wind speed, and that the vertical turbines will spin faster than the wind speed - which makes them more prone to breaking. View some of the videos of the giant wind turbines, burning. I'll take horizontal any day.
I know very little about wind turbines . I do have a horizontal axis one. It spends most of its time changing direction to face the wind. I do not think this would happen with a vertical axis.
Numerous, long-term, independent studies have been conducted on similar-sized horizontal and vertical wind turbines and every time, the horizontal models far outperform the VAWT's. And, every large, commercial wind turbine is HAWT, not a single VAWT. Tiny, plastic models tell us nothing.
It looks to me that one was much closer to your wind/fan. I think that it's important to test them in the same conditions.
The test were carried out at the same distance
The generators are also of same capacity?
@@palanik1960 Right...to me the magnets used for the vertical one would have to be much bigger and different than the horizontal one. They couldn't possibly be putting out the same power. The actual generating part needs to be the exact same for this to be a true comparison. It doesn't look to me there would be enough room in the base of the horizontal one as there is in the larger vertical one.
@@paulmobleyscience Meaning they are not same generating capacity and hence how comparison study can be equated?
@@palanik1960 The plastic pieces that are blue should be different but the actual generator that produces the electricity should have the same exact output to be able to have a true comparison of the two different designs.
shot lad fuckin life saver this one here is
the problem with a "normal" turbine, its quite daungers to have if its planned to be in a garden. its much and safter to have the horsiontal also much to protect, because there is NO turning parts, that moves, the directions and the BIG wings.. but the power is less on horsintal, but also much easiere to multiplied.. The Main issue for house hold turbines is the NOICE the produce to the envirement. nabos and suchs. the limits is very low and can that be a issue with a horsiontal turbine. or is it possible to make then in a enhanched cabin.. perhaps make to Solar panles lifted and have them between the Roof and the solar panels. that schould reduce the noice from them, and give more options for multiplied turbine generators
The comparison is not valid.
The radius of the horizontal axis turbine is greater than the radius of the vertical axis turbine.
I think you did your experiment from Guantanamo jail.
I agree the radius is not the same but the area swept is, according to the data specs.
@@PhilipRussell I understand about the swept area, I'm a math teacher.
But the space occupied by the blades of the HAWT is greater than that of the VAWT.
That is a point to consider.
@@elgram612 agreed, the smaller the radius the faster the turbine must spin to produce equal power
What about wind direction? The vertical turbine works with wind from all directions!!!
Can we make an assumption like : horizantal tribunes are more efficient then verticals. ??
No They both work well but in different circumstances
18 seconds in and he’s got horizontal and vertical mixed up…. Do I continue to the end…🤔
Good, but the swept area of your horizontal is much larger than your vertical turbine. This fact can confuse the results, no?
The swept area is about the same according to the manufacturer, but the amount of power produced is very different because of the design and the rotational speed. Other factors are more important than the swept area.
The VAT has half its area going into the wind, and the area of sweep on the HAT is greater than the area of sweep in your VAT model.
@@PhilipRussell the HAT sweep area is not area of blades!
@@sspicar Quite correct
The magnets are definitely much bigger on the HAWT...
Now if you make a flat halbach array on the VAWT that would be interesting to see
possibly double sided
Most importantly the wind section area covered by that HAWT is a lot larger than the VAWT it's being compared to.
"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind."
--- Lord Kelvin
Nice explan
klo 4:32 kyllä pehmeä kulma on tehokas, kun annat sille nopeutta, koska käynnistysmomentti on pieni. on tehokkaampi kuin jyrkkä kulma
Why not measure watts. I'm sure you could find a RUclips video showing you how.
You compared a really small, inefficienty design vawt to a much bigger much better design hawt. Its not a fair comparison. Also, vawt are not as efficient as hawt but have their own advantages that you have to clarify, like using gusts and turbulent flow much better, so works better thsn hawt in built up enviroment.
There are plenty of issues I can see here. First off there are MUCH better vertical vanes that produce nearly the same power. Next vertical requires less maintenance and a whole lot less room. Vertical does not need slip rings for complete 360 rotation that will eventually possibly twist the wires as it turns to face the wind. Vertical can take a lot MORE wind if you get storms and such and the blades do not need to be variable pitch....there is a "perfect pitch". The turbine can be supported top and bottom reducing friction on the generator section. The turbine can be near the ground and the vanes at any height you find best so MUCH easier to maintain (don't have to take it down to work on). The BIGGEST BY FAR to me is vertical doesn't kill birds and bats. Horizontal gens are killing valuable birds and bats by the millions...that WILL come back to bite us. Good vid but no very comprehensive. Check out Robert Murray Smith on here...he's done a couple great videos you might find interesting.
I am building a large vawt using a metal spool that is used to transfer electric cable.. I have a wooden spool also that I realized would make a good base..and I plan to use metal roofing for the booster panels.. The generator will be a challenge as well.
La comparación no es válida.
El radio de la turbina de eje horizontal es mayor que el radio de la turbina de eje vertical.
Dear sir,
Your opinions would interest me greatly. I wish to use a hybrid off-grid system that uses both solar and wind energy. Because of the height and space constraints, I intend to employ a vertical wind turbine. mostly for light winds.
We welcome any recommendations.
I think the vertical design wear quicker mores stress on the shaft
That was not scientific, was the generator the same for both systems, what was the RPM of each system, could the vertical maintain the same speed with the same generator. What was the decibel rating of each unit. Nice video though just lacking in information.
Bogus test. Any 2 identical generators at a givin rpm, will produce the same power. If the wind turbines are not designed to give that rpm there is no comparison. Your comparison should look into cost and complexity of each design to produce the same power output. And the efficiency of the design. The vertical axis you showed was not the most efficient.
You had the polarities reversed in your early led switcheroo so of course the vawt didnt work
You forgot to tell which one is low power led
Vawt should really be used to produce by magnets and coils on outside rim, rather than shaft.
That's where they are on this vertical wind turbine
You not comparing somthing you hold a sellseminarium in two bad choices!!
Are you using equal generators? If not your results are bogus
That was the whole point
Unfair and poor comparison, the alternator on HAWT is big , plus more height on HAWT , try using 3 blade "H darreius" design on VAWT , you will get more better results.
Look at the blades, see the math explanation : T = F * D -> More TORQUE more POWER
Yes I know. I deliberately didn't put any maths in.
how about using the same swept area for a starter! WTF not an equal comparison right out of the gate; I quit watching knowing you're biased to begin with
Horizontal turbines actually work. Vertical turbines don't really work. This is due to the physical processes of wind turbines.
Vertical turbines are widely used so I guess that they do work. Efficiency is a different matter.
@@PhilipRussell Not widely used. I've only seen vertical turbines in commercials. In reality, all vertical turbines that I have seen have already collapsed. The physical principles of vertical turbines make them short-lived and ineffective.
Y el tamaño de la bobina
De la horizontal es más grande
Y eso debería afectar los resultados...🤔🤔🤔
This mildly infuriated me.. only because it bothers me to see a comparison between horizontal and vertical turbines when the horizontal turbine is a poor design.. more tall than wide when a much more effective design is much wider than tall. Much more torque and efficiency is achieved with a shorter, wider horizontal turbine design. (Sorry, I describe the turbines by how the blades spin.. the tall one to your left I would call a vertical turbine)
Yes I agree, vawt could be made with a either long blades or blade that are further away from the axis of rotation, this would allow them to spin slower to produce the same amount of power or produce more power if the spin as fast
what's your point? don't get it
The magnet is not disame
compare wind swept area your compareson is useless
blade size the same I don't think so
From your firm Dr. Doctor works a video explanation or practical for the nitrogen battery and pyramids at home and thank you
Video Summary: Vertical seems better. There, saved you all 8 mins of your life.
how do you figure?
@@robertrichard2322 That's the gist of the video.
@@kartikkr not really depending on the application both have pros and cons.
@@robertrichard2322 Fair enough. Not debating one is better than the other. All I was trying to say was that the gist of the video is stating that Vertical is better. Not my conclusion...just helping save time. Maybe I'll update my wording to reflect the same.
I think that that demonstration was disingenuous the turbines should have used the same generators to prove efficiency and effectiveness of design
Betz limit has been smashed and debunked regards Graham Flowers
@@dedu456 yes
@@dedu456 yes to your first question and no to the second the outer ring drives the generator as well as being a flywheel regards Graham
@@dedu456 do you mean 4'-0" diameter . Axial Flux is a Hugh Piggott design am I right regards Graham
@@dedu456 four feet diameter with corrugated blades could be a eight feet diameter power output but still be four feet in diameter size regards Graham
The first obvious difference is that:
a) size (swept area) of both turbines is DIFFERENT. You need to compare apples with apples...
b) one is lift based, another is drag based...you NEED to compare apples with apples. Otherwise - this is just misinformation...sorry.
The swept area is about the same according to the manufacturer, depending on the configurations. but the amount of power produced is very different because of the design and the rotational speed. Other factors are more important than the swept area. On these models I can change the blades on both turbines and the angles. I can use 2, 3 or 4 blades in each turbine which will change the swept areas. I could have set up the videos with all the maths to prove the same areas for each configurations, but then it would have been a longer and more boring video and here I am just looking at concepts.
I’ll look forward to your video.
But are the generators the same rating, apart from different types of lift versus drag which is warped comparison
Only 4 watt in total sens not use volt and watt meter for this ??
Waste of money i belive
These are demo models to teach students all about wind power as an alternative energy source. For that they are worth every penny. For making electricity they are useless buy a real one. My job is education and showing people all over the world wind turbines and fuel cells and solar panel and how they work invaluable. I do a whole series of experiments measuring this in the laboratory classroom but it does take a long time to do and the maths is not for everyone - so just a simple video.
Horizontal turbines much more expensive and comlicated. That is why used more often. All those wind mils subsidase by goverment. Than higher cost than more money you can stil.
You should try connect olds elevator to draw water with a horizontal turbine, turning the tube of the old elevator. This could then draw the water up to a great high with wind power and drop down which then could run a hydro generator is the normal elevator in action. ruclips.net/video/-fu03F-Iah8/видео.html
One is bigger than the other.
But the swept area is the same. Not me the manufacturer.
Those vertical nose hairs are very distracting.
Who cares? All practical tests of ground-based small wind turbines show: 1) They hardly produce any electricity. 2) They do not last long!
No electricity, because there is hardly any wind close to the ground - and electricity yield is proportional to the third power ofwind speed: 100% more wind generates 800% more electricity! Only from an altitude of 100m wind is stronger and more constantly. Moreover, wind close to ground is extremely gusty & destructive to wind turbines.
*Due to price decline solar panels generate at least 10 times more green electricity with the same investment! Reliable for at least 25y - maintenance-free.*
Totally meaningless comparison, not measuring energyv production and relating it to design aspects, cost comparisons etc.
poor test
... can you put an old man to sleep with a good story? Depends...!? Of course, if he is an old child, addicted to good stories! ;)
and unless it's at least 60 meters in the air or the size of a supermarket you cant even make enough power to charge a phone, they are useless.
Toy?
Great video!! Thank you!!
Question: Would you mind making a video comparing the efficiency of the turbines compared to this ruclips.net/video/S0zF0bFEUrA/видео.html? It would be very interesting to see how much it improves the efficiency of the vertical turbine! Thanks!
Vertical turbines are crap, just ask anybody that's actually bought one and ran it for a while, they're rubbish and it only takes one short docu to tell everybody out there this absolute fact
this gave no answer at all
i started off interested and finished up confused by a word soup that made no sense, contained no real science and had exactly the opposite effect to your stated aim.
And you call this science? Really?
i m confused and heart broken after watching the video very saad. like y?
This was the first for two videos I created for my students. The first which you watched was a demo of what happens. In the other video the explanation the Law is explained and the video of the magnet is at full speed ruclips.net/user/shortsSVVK0xoEeNk?feature=share