This is understandeble, but I just feel bad for cacturne mostly. One of my favorite pokemon by its looks and lore and in game use shat one by passage of time.The definition of Slow Frail Mixed Attacker with typing that makes dark/ice blush. So long sweet cactus child, people hardly knew you.
At this point I am not even here to listen. I am just here because I rely on confirming that you're not just a voice in my head and that I am not talking to myself about the intricacies of bulky waters in a 20 year old game Your voice has grown on us all
6:56 and 26:57 here's the "thesis" of this video. 100 accuracy moves are not "always hit" moves, they were designed to be able to miss. the problem is evasion in general, and the game was designed with evasion in mind. if it wasn't every 100 accuracy move would be like arial ace. yet, this game design choice is inherently unhealthy for the modern competitive meta where sand is everywhere. if there's an issue with evasion, make it universal. i feel like the sand veil ban should have been part of the evasion clause to begin with. in the end i support the SV ban, because I feel like its in the same spirit. i'm a bit sad because I like seeing lil ol' cacturn wreck salamance and metagross in OU. I'm happy because the top players won't have to worry about the shitty RNG!
Still going through the video. I haven't played Pokemon since ORAS, but since then I've tried a bunch of other competitive games like Smash and Magic: the Gathering, and when it comes to consistency in "the better player wins", Pokemon lands somewhere in the middle I feel, where there's a lot of agency in the decision you get to make, but there's still hax and misses that are out of the player's control, and even if you try and play to maximize the situations where hax will not matter, your opponent is also trying to do the same thing, and there will always be critical turns with RNG (or if a player is behind, they may have to try and play for the hax). I can't help but feel if Nintendo were managing the competitive ADV singles metagame, we would still find things like Wobbuffet or Mewtwo to be broken, and Nintendo would do something about them, but they'd never touch Sand Veil, and we'd all be like current MtG players now, which is basically - "it is what it is, randomness is just part of the game", you just gotta deal with the better player losing a lot. RNG also doesn't reduce the skill ceiling of a game, but it does increase uncertainty in outcome, aka luck. One key difference I suppose is that Sand Veil is RNG that is thrust upon you, whereas other moves you can choose whether or not you want to risk the miss, but at the end of the day, I feel like decision making is somewhat an illusion of control in Pokemon - there's still switching with 50/50s, speed ties, crits, misses, flinch, parahax, scald burns, etc.; having RNG that is inflicted on you feels bad, but there's still luck everywhere, and there are many games where the better player loses. Don't get me wrong, I think stuff like Sand Veil, swagger, etc. is total BS and are garbage mechanics, but I feel like (Singles) Pokemon players have only had the privilege (and it is a great privilege) to ban mechanics we consider BS only because the rules of Singles OU is handled by the players, and not by the company. But I don't feel like the game would lose competitive integrity with stuff like evasion, so much as swing Pokemon just a tad bit closer to Poker and other card games. All that being said, would I vote for a Sand Veil ban? Absolutely. Fuck Sand Veil.
@@mistermr2147 Edit: So I just found out Swagger was unbanned in gen 7 due to confusion / t-wave nerfs, but man, if you've never played against prankster T-wave / Swagger abuse in Gen 6, oh boy. Prankster swagger / t-wave / substitute / foul play is very dumb, and not as inconsistent as it sounds, especially when surrounded by a reasonable team that would benefit from all the paralyzed / weakened mons. But it was also a good enough strat that you could win a surprising amount of games with just 6 swagger mons. Swagger didn't really get problematic until gen 6 though when we got Klefki / unbanned Thundurus which were the best abusers because of Prankster. At it's peak, it was even stealing games in Ubers, though it was obviously inconsistent / controversial: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smart-strategy-swagger-1-peak.3508194/
True true , although i almost lost a battle earlier because someone froze 3 of my pokemon in a row and then called me bad after he lost because of a miss.
I’m especially glad this shit got banned because of how I got kicked out of CI4 play-ins. I won r1, then r2 I got sand veiled g1, won g2 and got sand veiled again g3 and that was it. I usually hate stuff that messes with RNG in general but this one hit me harder than ever because it was my first time having a chance to fight for a CI spot
Sand veil is dumb ... not just because evasiveness increase, it's because you don't take damage from sandstorm too. ( if my english is bad, sry ^^'. I just hope that it's not going to be a pain. Oh and i'm not a ADV player so if i'm saying smthing stupid forgive me, i just want to express my opinion about it ). So sand veil with a pokemon like cacturne is dumb. Cacture : a spiker that beat every spinner in adv except fight types like hitmonlee, chan, top and ofc forretress... but : you can trap forretress with mag and rapid spin is not run on the "hitmon family" so that means that you can sub, leech seed, spam sub if you are faster and set up spikes when you get a miss thx to the evasiveness boost ! I suppose that if you are not running HP on cacturne it's because you want to spam sub easier because leech seed regen is "bigger" for you when HP base is low, i explain what i mean : you = 280 HP vs target = 330 HP, leech seed steals 1/8 of target's maximum HP so its means that here the target lose 41,25 HP but for you it is not 12,5 % that you're going to regen but it's 14,73% per turn ! Combined with the 6,25% of the leftovers because you don't take damage from sandstorm, the total is equal to 21% ! That's enormous ! So when you are spamming sub hoping to get a miss, that means that you lose only 4% per turn ! So a miss in this situation means that you get the sub and next turn is free = 1 layer of spikes ... and ofc without worrying about spinners because you can beat them easily with hp grass/dark or with needle arm and with your 115 basestat in spA. So imagine if cacturne was taking damage from sanstorm... only 14,73% per turn... pokepast.es/f7e22c6b59b6a851 This is ABR team, as we can see there is no hazard remover so you have to trap skarm / forretress quickly as possible before they can set up spikes and annoy you. After that, cacture is totally free because skarm can use whirlwind and forretress have HP bug / HP fire and ofc use rapid spin removing the leech seed. And after chipping mons like mence and setting spikes, gligar is free, coupled and with t wave spam ( ttar, blissey and mag ) it can easily set up a sub + SD. Great team, i really like it tbh. How to counter it ? 1) Absorb leech seed 2) switch on a mon like salamence which is faster than cacture letting the cacture getting a sub 3) cross fingers hoping to hit, breaking the sub forcing the cacture to leave the field next turn. And if you miss, 2 possibilities. Your mence is the only pokemon which outspeed cacturne, so y have to switch on a pokemon that can break the sub. After breaking it and absorbing leech seed you have to switch on mence and again hope to hit. Mence is not the only pokemon that outspeed cacturne so you just have to switch and repeat the same thing that you did with mence. But imagine if cacturne outspeed every pokemon of your team and if you miss only 1 move letting the cacturne having a sub ... that what happened with Tony vs TDK... this is just ... dumb. I was thinking about aerial ace on salamence which never miss but idw to use that instead of hp fly and lose 10 in power just to counter a NU pokemon. Dugtrio with HP bug is good too but you can miss because of sANd vEiL and get KO in return. Celebi is immune to leech seed but gets trapped by the pursuit tar. This is how a NU pokemon became one of the most broken pokemon in OU with the good support. No one regret you cacturne/gligar. Thx for reading.
Honestly, I think the sand immunity is an interesting tool that could have added variety had it not been stapled to abilities as uncompetitive as sand veil or sand rush.
i feel like while sand veil is getting banned, sand attack/flash and bright powder should get the heave ho too. they add nothing by being here, and they are really annoying to play against. dont get me wrong, theyre not nearly as bad, if only because the opportunity cost of running them is so much higher, but i really dont like being able to dodge 100% accurate moves. like you said, tbolt is ran over thunder even though thunder has a much higher bp and para rate because 30% of the time, thunder misses. if i can also miss tbolt, then the solution isnt "run shock wave lol" its to make it so that tbolt, a 100% accurate move, is 100% accurate
Bright powder misses are annoying yeah but you're taking up your item slot just to use it, and sand attack/flash take up important move slots and are countered by switching. You also actually have to use the move which doesn't factor if the other pokemon is faster, unlike the ability just existing. Active all the time.
Sand attack and flash take up a moveslot, take a turn to use, and unlike double team, they apply a debuff to the opponent, meaning that they can reset it just by switching. Bright powder takes up the item slot, and while opinions may differ regarding whether it should be banned, not being able to use another item (like leftovers, sash, or a choice item) is a notable opportunity cost, while pokemon with evasion abilities may not even have another ability that they'd rather use (or, in ADV cacturne's case, not have another ability, period.)
i feel like people forget that even old generations still evolve in combat - and it’s a shame that they’re frowned upon. i couldn’t say it any better than how you explained it.
You had me at excessive RNG combined with opportunity cost. It takes way too much investment to shut it down, and everyone looooves RNG in a competitive environment.
Poor Cacturne. The first shiny Pokémon I ever caught. Shame that he’ll be relinquished to the lower tiers forever on this one, though it is impressive on how just one ability can throw off the balance of an entire metagame. Makes me wonder what ADV OU would look like without any permanent weather... Probably unrecognizable.
Sand Veil is the main point of the video, but my main take away is that I've never wanted BKC to play pokemon XD or colosseum more in my life. I know you can't be 100% competitive with limited choices/movesets, but dear God consider a playthrough
@@MathsTution-lo4jl Colosseum and XD have very few Pokemon you can actually use. Colosseum has about 40 if I remember right, and some of those are hot garbage like slugma, and with TMs being very scarce, the movesets on good Pokemon would be only like two useable moves. I wanted to see BKC apply his vast knowledge to games that force you into using things you wouldn't consider using at all
Man Cacturne is one of my favorite pokemon from when I beat emerald for the first time with it as one of me best mons. Understandable why sand Veil had to go, I more so wish it had another ability so I could mess around with it atleast
Considering all this, which i entirely agree with, I'm curious about something. How do you feel about Serene Grace? To me, on a surface level, it feels like it's the exact same thing, but I'm not nearly as experienced, so I'd be glad to hear why it's not as bad.
Jirachi with body slam and increased chance of freeze, burn and paralysis from elemental punches and tbolt/thunder can be really annoying to run into. Also, Dunsparce with body slam and headbutt + rock slide :o
Another pokemon with subpar stats banned due to having a decent ability that would let it thrive in ou. They could have banned tyra and sand veil on same team without banning a whole pokemon in the process. Granted this lets the player use the sand set up by opponent but its a trade off for not using tyranatar on ur team. So balanced in a way.
Hey Idk if you know about this but they basically did this for excadrill back in gen 5. Excadrill was not allowed on sand teams but was on every other team. Excadrill soon became the best sand counter in the game. Using the opponents sand against them and still staying just as omnipresent and oppressive. The same would have happened if smogon did what you just suggested but maybe even worse. While Cacturn and Gligar aren't as amazing as excadrill, but ADVs entire meta is mostly centered around sand being up. Sand is so omnipresent that I believe disallowing sand veil on a team with sand basically would make a meta where you either have standard ADV teams that have sand and a fuck ton of counters to sand veil pokemon. Simply because sand is so good, or teams that abuse sand veil to the topmost degree.
Smogon doesn’t do complex bans. Banning combinations of Pokémon is a complex ban therefore Smogon would never touch it. Complex bans scare away new players too much.
@@dylanf3108 They did a baton pass ban in ADV OU where they decided to not allow more than 3 baton pass users on the same team, as well as that the baton passer cannot be Smeargle.
I hate to hear about OU viable pokemon being banned because I love pokemon variety, but I can’t say I don’t agree that Sand Veil is really fucking dumb.
I find it amusing that this is Dugtrio’s only other ability in gen 3- aside from Arena Trap, which is arguably more broken. Though I guess Arena Trap is necessity for ADV OU?
So using a broken ability in the tier to counter other broken stuff is healthy Dugtrio trapping other dug is a common thing and most of the ways beat is like that or having most of your pokemon not touch the ground like the super man team
We should ban paralysis, the chance for freeze and all moves with imperfect accuracy while we’re at it. If someone’s butthurt we should change everything
No, because paralysis can be stopped by grounds and natural cure mons, freeze has only a 10% chance, and imperfect accuracy moves are your choice if you're choosing to run them at all, meanwhile this has counterplay in weakening yourself with inferior moves that miss out on KOs or just straight up not being able to do anything but hope to not miss, has a 20% chance to make your best moves miss and gives you no choice in whether you want to take the risk, all if you run into the undisputed best pokémon in the entire metagame in either team
@@vtmagno23 I get where you’re coming from, but there’s specifically 2 Pokémon that have a set ability that only activates in sand(which is common). There’s moves that bypass accuracy(ace/toxic on a poison type etc). The main issue is opportunity cost. People don’t want to switch their sets and lose out on power/moves or not bring sand/a weather changer to deal with it.
The whole reason we are concerned about things that are "too good" is because this is a competition, and the goal is to show that you're actually better than someone rather than just relying on brain-dead tactics to get through. If you couldn't win without SV, then get better and win without it. And sure, there's good reason to use overpowered things, but not in a competition. Guns are OP as hell compared to other animals, but fighting for your life is a valid reason to be OP. Competition is not because it's boring, and then people stop competing and the game dies. TL;DR: Get Gud Scrub
If all the Sand Veil mons had other abilities then I'd be right with you on the ban but for Cacturne and Sandslash that's all they have and you want to prevent them from being used with the most common pokemon who is seen in 90% of matches because its annoying. You should adapt to it, use ways of countering it as people go out of there way for much bigger threats and have adapted to far worse then this.
Well, it you really want to use Cacturne then just use him in NU. I suppose it's kind of bad that his spiking niche is gone but it's a small price to pay for the removal of something with no counterplay
Imo sandvail ban in ADV isn't nescessary, bc gligar is not a threat and cacturne dies to aerial ace and can't leech grass types. It just gives aerial ace (on mence, aero, dug and even skarm) , grass types and sun/rain teams another reason to be used, which are all not very common in the current meta. Just bc something is frustrating to deal with for the usual big 5 teams doesn't mean automatically it's banworthy
Haven't watched yet but I kind of disagree with it on face value. Between its subseeding, Needle Arm flinch, and Sand Veil, Cacturne has a niche as a stallbreaker. It uses these RNG elements over time to accrue momentum against stall. Can you really call it RNG or blame RNG for a loss against Cacturne when it's piling on these elements over multiple turns for it to be effective at all? It's really quite consistent over multiple turns. All this being said, I'll listen to the reasoning. Haven't played ADV for about a year now.
The reason arena trap isn’t busted in adv is because the meta is pretty trapper heavy anyway, and because dugtrio being locked into a move by choice band is far more abusable. Also dugtrio is one of the defining pieces of ADV, and removing it would ruin the meta.
Porygon 2 is often used to copy dugtrios arena trap with trace and give it a taste of its own medicine, and magneton is used often to forcefully destroy skarmory.
In ADV there's no U-turn/Volt Switch to get Dugtrio in safely, you have to double-switch or revenge-kill, also no team preview helps in that regard, making it riskier in general to double-switch, additionally there really isn't a truly broken strategy based around Dugtrio, one of the most common that comes to mind is dual trap+weather reset+Curse Snorlax which isn't even that good imo.
Unlike later generations which saw dug as suboptimal, and then evolved a meta ignoring it, which led to it's usage spike breaking them wide open, adv has grown up with dug, thus it has adapted to it's presence well enough.
The lower power level of ADV means that it's harder to win a game off of a single trap. The fact that dugtrio runs choice band and can't run sash also means that it has to be able to survive a hit from its victim in order to do its job. Finally, the focus on spikes and lack of stealth rocks gives a major incentive to run ground-immune pokemon who also happen to ignore arena trap (as opposed to later gens where flying-types have their longetivity cut down by stealth rocks.)
3:50 How? Because of new unforeseen bugs in RBY like bide quadrupling damage dealt if confuse ray is used? 6:07 If Cacturne is really good with Sub Seed and Sand Veil, then is it only because no one thought of using it in OU before Sand Veil got banned, that's it's still NU?
1. like I said, if a metagame is played by high level players in high level tournaments, that metagame will evolve and move forwarded, even if it is old, and this is especially true of rby. it is a natural change, not stemming from bug discovery or anything like that 2. also like I said, until this year it had not been figured out how to best make consistent use of cacturne
Not that your reasoning is wrong, but I'm hoping that Gen 4 Machamp isn't banned at this rate for it's No Guard Dynamic Punch, or that No Guard overall isn't banned
maybe maybe not older gens councils have been hit with the small brain virus that previously only infected current gen ou council so well have to see lmao
ruclips.net/p/PLoncWiRvwYi4ndjbsKTfDMSNks4iyujWX For all who want it, a BKC educational content playlist. Does not include replay analyses if they are not part of Pokemon's greatest battles series.
Cacturne should have kept sand veil, without it it's useless and with it it can finally do something. They should atleast give it a buff like in stats (Shiftry should also get one) or a mega evolution with good stats (+ speed and defense or so).
not that there is anything wrong with preferring tyranitar in ou over cacturne, but i think you could argue that the problem is actually tyranitar. there will always be para-flinch and such in pokemon, and its annoying, and viable, but not necessarily busted (except Skymin i suppose), what's busted about sand veil is that sandstorm is permanent. then again maybe not, since sand veil had to be banned in a meta in which sand could be ended with rain or sun, but it also had 2 really really powerful mons that didnt even need sand veil to be borderline broken, but they had it on top of that
Exactly this. Something is worth banning if it doesn't have counters. SV has a plethora of counters that could have been explored. They simply did not give it time. The game they mastered was ironically evolving and they didn't want to adapt to newly emerging meta. Trap tar and change the weather. Cloud 9 jank to counter jank. Slap on a wide/scope lens. Start packing destiny bond or perish song. Start using grass pokemon, cuck them with swift. Maybe it was broken. Maybe it wasn't. We'll never really get the chance to know.
@@ThatGuyThai And here I was thinking you guys hated stall. Sand stream is the main way to neutralize leftovers on bulky threats like snorlax, suicune and zapdos, hence why some teams will run manual weathers to clear the sand. Banning sand stream makes these pokemon much harder to break through.
aerial ace is much worse than hp flying and doesn't hit gligar hard at all. poison-types don't have 100% toxic pre-gen 6 (and it doesn't do anything considering these pokes spam sub). the only good poison-types in ou are gengar and venusaur, neither of which are particularly good toxic users, and both are bad against a corresponding sand veil user (gar gets smacked by cacturne's hp dark, venusaur gets smacked by gligar's hp flying)
I'm so glad sand veil is finally banned. Altough I like adv OU, I'm mostly a vgc player, and when I started playing competitively there was this video on youtube ruclips.net/video/rqKIgBVBAq8/видео.html that really explains in a minute how broken sand veil is. I have lost myself a very important match as well because of sand veil since a Garchomp dodged my Hydreigon's dragon pulse (I didn't want to miss the meteor) back in 2013 nationals... it's a really dumb ability in conjunction with Tyranitar
Why is it not okay to run Rain Dance on Pokemon to counter this strategy, while plenty of Pokemon will run specific moves like HP Grass to counter stuff like Swampert? Why are some Pokemon allowed to be strong and some are not allowed to be strong?
This is less “skill based” like other annoying or stall mons who have reliable checks and require brain to pilot, even at the lowest level, this is just “I will set up sand and now you’d better hope you hit me an nth amount of times if I outspeed cause sub, good luck. That’s all the strat is, luck. You either get lucky and kill it or don’t and lose instantly. That just isn’t competitive. That’s like saying “put items on in smash, you can counter the green koopa shell so it’s balanced!”
@@dagui2973 terrible argument. One could say the complete opposite. You better hope I miss you otherwise you threw the game. There's also no sentiment that a miss is an auto win. Something is worth banning if there are no true counters. Something as simple as weather or cloud 9 jank ruins this entire strategy. Counter bad pokemon jank with other bad pokemon jank if it really emerges to completely change the meta. Give it the time it deserves evolve the meta and if no true counters arise, ban it. This decision was made in haste by the few, for the many. Sadly it makes it look like players who spent years mastering the current meta weren't willing to allow that meta to evolve.
@@ThatGuyThai In the gen 5 section about sleep, a single free turn's value is explained, evasion raising moves are moves that give you a chance to get a free turn, and that can be much more powerful than a swords dance boost. On the point about cloud 9, It's just not on enough good mons, and it's not like only trash mons get double team, or sand veil, Golduck isn't magically going to 10-0 garchomp because it removes sand veil, or do literally anything else to the rest of the team. That's the problem with running bad techs like aura sphere mienshao or something to get around evasion, you run a bad option against 99% of the teams to not risk the chance to give a free turn to kartana because oops my fire punch missed now D-nite loses to kart. (unless it's something like haze pex, but the amount of viable options that counter specific things without making the set less able to handle consistent threat/teams is very low.) When do you think cacturne was banned? It wasn't 19 years ago, it wasn't 10, it was last year. Because people did experiment with evasion, and instantly found something degenerate. "I hope my hp flying hits or my counter is no longer a counter" Is not skillful gameplay, and "just run golduck to get rid of the sand" ignores the fact that 1.T-Tar is the reason sand is on field at all times, and 2. Golduck does not have a niche in OU. It can't break anything, It's not fast, it's utility is solely in cloud 9, but clearing weather isn't worth a full slot, if you want to clear it fully you'd have to play most of the game without golduck, and than after you kill t-tar send it out. Also, the idea that something should only be banned if it has ZERO counters is absurd. Dracovish had 2 concrete counters, seismetoad and gastrodon, you could also run other water absorb/storm drain mons to deal with it, but you HAD to run one. Mons or strategies that are suffocating in terms of team building tend to be banned. Espescially if the checks/counters are incredibly limited, that's not to say mons WITHOUT counters cannot/should not be banned, but having no counters should not, and is not a REQUISITE to be banned. >counter bad pokemon jank with bad pokemon jank (I should've structured this comment better, but I wanted to make sure my message on this point was properly communicated.) It won't be bad pokemon abusing it unless A. it's incredibly degenerate and the good mons cannot use/learn it (If pert had sand veil, it'd be able to use cacturne's set infinitely better) which, is a mute point for evasion because double team is nearly ubiquitous, or they have 4 move syndrome really bad or do not benefit off of it, but usually mons with 4 move syndrome tend to do really good with free turns, like gen 6 gren, but an example of the second category would be ferrothorn, they don't quite benefit off of evasion, so they wouldn't run it. But bulk-up zeraora? Yeah it could run it, or something like crawdaunt on a switch, and unlike an SD boost, you can't "tank" evasion, the way to outplay evasion is just never give them a turn of momentum, not form U-turn, Volt switch, getting a mon ko'd, them making a prediction, because one mistake and now every move is stone edge, good luck or blacephelon will eat you, oh also, I forgot about this, but fast subs + evasion = pain, as you have to continually roll stone edge. What would you counterplay it with besides being perfect and predicting correctly at every juncture? uhhhh infiltrator shadow punch or something (does any mon have that combination) Haze pex/fini? But blaceph isn't even a bad mon, but if you aren't prepared for sub team blaceph and it gets a single turn you can lose the entire game. A good player with evasion could definitely leverage that. Also, just dropping things into a meta and seeing if it works gets you things like Genesect returning to OU in every gen to immediently be banned. It's tested, it's still genesect so it destroys OU, it gets banned immedietly after by vote. But hey what would evasion coming back bring to the table in terms of positivity? After all, Excadrill came back from ubers in B2W2 when hazards were getting to be a bit too much, so lets consider what it'd add. Another set to basically every viable offensive mon from PU all the way to OU (uber has alot more aura sphere than other tiers, but it's still not ubiquitous) in which you now have a chance to miss them and lose momentum/a mon/the game, or you hit them and all stays the same (bulky sweepers/setup sweepers also get to run this too btw, and of course we have the classic toxic minimize recover (x) set.). So it adds a greater element of uncertainty in your opponent's sets. In gen 1/2 this could be pretty novel, Past gen 3 though, missing a single turn could prove catastrophic, and it introduces that chance to more pokemon in more situations. It adds more chance for you to get rng'd. People HATE moves like focus miss and stone miss because their accuracy, there's a reason people run surf over hydro, Tbolt over thunder in gen 4 ubers is an actual decision even though kyogre is there, simply because missing is awful. That choice is ripped away and now you are forced to roll stone edge when your opponent clicks double team on your switch after they volt switch into mega medicham in gen 6 OU, now, do you roll on hitting your hurricane here? Will your shadow ball connect? Will moonblast hit? Is he even going to stay in? Am I going to stay in? What do I do if I miss, am I just dead? It adds more decision making, but unlike playing around freeze in gen 1 with chansey, you do not have the luxury of nearly infinite hp and no risk to the mon besides freeze, if you make the wrong play vs this cham, vs blaceph, vs zeraora, vs chomp, you could very well lose an important mon/hp on an important mon or the game. I just want to say at the end of this bloody essay, out of everything you've written, to say that they only master the "current meta" of not just current gen, but the implied other gens is an insult to the scene. Raikou was just dethroned of the second best in gen 2 last year, Lanturn is seeing a rise in popularity and Mr Mime just got banned in ADV OU, Gen 4 Ubers is in a renissance period and is in the spotlight after the arceus ban, Gen 5's sleep ban was this very year, improvements and adjustments are ALWAYS being made to ANY metagame, as long as there is a single player who cares. You do not *need* to inject new moves, new pokemon, new ANYTHING, for a metagame to grow. You do not N E E D to inject evasion into a metagame, when it has little if any positive effect on the metagame, and a negative effect on the competitive nature of and player morale (try to tell me you didn't get pissed when your older brother pulled out the minimize strats, or the AI pulls out double team in the battle tower and fucks with you). Evasion just is not it. It is not that it has not been tested, nor that people (besides you, oh great one) want to adapt, or that the people (who play smogon's formats) secretly want evasion but can't rebel against the smogon overlords, it is unhealthy and has proven so in the tests it has been given, and as the game's mons grow more powerful, or the metagame more experienced, a single missed turn will only become more and more dangerous. TL:DR. There is none. Read the essay.
@@ThatGuyThai If cacturne is spamming substitute, it only really needs you to miss one time within the next three turns. If you miss at any point, it's kinda ggs, since Cacturne can seed you, and then fish for flinches. Even if you break the sub, it can just make another.
@@emmetstanevich2121 and then you switch into Venusaur or any grass type and it literally cannot do anything to you. You can just phase it. You can poison it. So many answers. If something is broken, it has few or no answers. Cacturne has MANY, people just don't want to build around 1 mon, but if it started stealing tournaments, they would. Any OU mon is far more useful.
Its these arguments that will eventually lead to banning sand, magnet pull and arena trap. RNG is Pokémon and always has been. Low rolls, high rolls, misses and crits. Can they break a game? Maybe, but if skill is involved, you can't depend on these things to develop high tier consistency. Sand is by far the the most impactful part of gen 3, negates the best item in the game, takes away boost berries along with reversal and blaze boost type abilities. I didn't agree with this one because I don't think relying on hax makes you the more consistent winner. Can it clutch or steal a win? Sure, but that's always been Pokémon. We haven't banned bright powder, crits, freezes, paralysis, confusion or flinches, but when you start banning SV, you enter a route that will lead to a very stale version of the game. In my opinion something should only reach banned status if there are no/few true counters to it. Weather counters SV. Perish song, destiny bond, wide lens/scope lens, hell seeing guaranteed hit moves like aerial ace or swift would have been interesting counters. What I would have loved to see is more time. The meta was simply evolving and those who voted axed it simply because they devoted their lives to understanding the current meta. They didn't want the game they mastered to change. If we gave it time, and SV became prevalent, no doubt people would come up with counterplay to switch it up. The game state would have been wildly refreshing to witness for such an old game. I would celebrate ADV history. At that point, if it is still showing itself to be broken, with the time allotted only then would I say it was worthy of banning, because counters were explored and they failed. Instead we have axed an emerging and evolving meta out of fear and inexperience. This was done with too few parties involved. The few chose the landscape for the many. It's incredibly embarrassing to be honest. There are far more abilities and items that are impactful without any or many counters to them in comparison. Problem is you accept those because they're established and part of the norm. When something comes from left field and challenges the norm, you should allow it time to consider its true impact, not fear it.
I agree. Sand Stream is the real thoughtless ability. Why are the rules being bent around the broken mechanic at expense of everything else? Typical Smogon. As time goes on, it feels less like Pokemon.
If you guys don't want to miss maybe pokemon should just ban evasion. Like it is part of pokemon and it's logical that moves miss and pokemon in hail or sandstorm are more difficult to hit. Why you all get so annoyed by it, it's part of the game. Stop crying over evasion, it's in every game.
"Sand Veil Garchomps" in ADV OU, oh boy. The fact that evasion moves and such are banned even in Ubers is disgusting IMO. Ban stuff from your "official" metagame, sure, but there's a reason I've been calling for Anything Goes to be a real thing in older gens.
Smogon: Sand veil is uncompetitive because it allows you to dodge attacks Also Smogon: Aerial ace is utter dogshit, run focus blast, fire blast, blizzard instead if smogon mods didnt have double standards theyd have no standards at all
In case this isn't a troll; BKC addressed this exact issue when he talked about the opportunity cost of using generally inferior moves. He even addresses why Aerial Ace specifically is bad in this match-up at 10:34.
Aerial Ace is outclassed by HP flying in ADV OU and Dual Wingbeat rn. Evasion raising is extremely rare in smogon singles, and so Aerial Ace is 99.9% of the time worse than HP flying.
A crit is outside of any player's control, evasion is a conscious decision from a team builder trying to exploit a miss for a competitive edge. This is a false comparison.
@@MegaDav1234 no ones banning slash or scope lens. That evasion is outside of control too. You have no control over them hitting or missing. Just as you don't have control over crit even with high critical hit ratio moves.
@@ThatGuyThai Even when you build for crits, they're far from guaranteed and you may only have one shot to do anything meaningful before the opponent KO's your mon with a switch in. Moreover, crits have a huge metagame benefit by giving teams a fighting chance against defense boosting mons like Snorlax. Since every mon has the same crit chance by default you don't need to waste a moveslot to reap the benefit either. Evasion requires specific set up with specific mons and specific counterplay is needed to consistently thwart it. These come in the form of wasting a move slot on a few members of your team just to prepare for a cheesy, skill-less gimmick that youre very unlikely to come across, which is antithetical to the mentality of playing optimally by preparing for as many teams as possible in one set. Evasion also benefits having multiple chances to proc by using moves like substitute and leech seed, especially if the evading mon is faster than the opposing mon and substitute ruins any switches to counter it. Good luck aerial acing the Cacturn with Dugtrio when its behind a sub preparing to needle arm it in return. Crit builds are cheesy and bad too in the same way, but they're not powerful enough to ruin an otherwise great metagame and one crit may not even amount to anything useful. Making a move miss is always useful and makes it possible to win matches you have no business winning because you just relied on luck.
@@MegaDav1234 I basically had to stop reading because, even if you build for crits you're far from guaranteed. This is the same case as SV. Even when your entire moveset and/or items revolve around the miss, it's not guaranteed. In fact less of a guarantee than crits. I read the rest and I get the arguments but crits, burn, freeze, para, confusion all super detrimental if they even show up once, but we currently accept it because that's Pokémon.
@@ThatGuyThai If you stopped reading then you missed the point I was trying to make - you get maybe one shot with a crit, you get many chances with SV and only need one to change the matchup unalterably. At least try and understand what's being said before saying something moronic. Consider this conversation over, I'm not going to talk to someone who won't even try to understand what's being discussed.
Can't you just ban sand veil with tyranitar? So you can't have cacturne and tyranitar on the same team, but can have something to punish your opponent's tyranitar?
@@BKCplaysPokemon I don't think utilizing the ability of your opponent's Pokemon to your benefit is unfair. It's like trace with magnet pull or arena trap. Moreover, having something to punish the best Pokemon in the format seems fair. Maybe it'll make tyranitar a little less viable but is that really such a bad thing?
And if you really don't want to deal with sand veil you can always opt to not have tyranitar on your team. Sand veil isn't very OP if you have to set up with sandstorm right?
@@Habitual_mufnttar isnt broken whatsoever in adv and keeping/introducing something broken to check it as if you dont have a kajillion options already is respectfully speaking insane
They should really make bans like this apply only to tournament play and not Laddering; this is the type of shit that just limits the fun people can have on laddering which is totally inconsequential. I don’t see why Sand Veil or Dugtrio has to be banned for randoms on ladder when it is only an issue for the top 1% of players.
first of all, not all pokemon can learn aerial ace. second of all, its just stupid how pokemon needs to learn aerial ace just to deal with sand veil user.
Or stop trying to make Pokemon into chess and accept that luck is a factor? Learn to run Aerial Ace. For all I care use Sweet Scent to increase your hit chance again. You're literally banning Gligar and Cacturne because they were having a chance against the top tier teams? So no top tiers should be threatened by UU and lower tier mons?
Sweet scent fails on sub. People tend to like to decrease luck or make it as insignificant as possible in competitive games. So to have a mon that is just “don’t get bad luck or you instantly lose” is not only very unbalanced, but uncompetitive. They aren’t being banned because they CAN they’re being banned because of HOW they do it. In a degenerate Mario party manner. “Oops your opponent rolled and landed on a hidden star space on the last turn guess you lost, maybe you should’ve just removed one of your buttons from your controller that you could use for anything else to move the hidden star one space. “
@@ThatGuyThai You miss against cacturne and suddenly your mence goes from "cacturne counter" to having been seeded while cacturne still has it's sub, meaning mence loses the MU cause cacturne can protect (recover 18%, 12% chip on mence if mence has lefties otherwise an additional 6% chip on mence, at this point, cacturne has already recovered 6% bare minimum from having used sub how many turns ago) Meaning it can now sub up on mence, than protect again, and net GAIN hp, while salamance is losing hp. This applies to pokemon faster than it with a counter move if they miss the sub or even miss the cacturne if the player is ballsy enough to go for it/over predicts. If your pokemon is slower than cacturne, than it just gets to do this regardless. ONE turn means your counter turns into a victim, and not every team will be packing 3-4 counters for cacturne, and cacturne being able to just drain mence, drain it's counters, drain what IT ALREADY counters in the nearly omnipresent condition of sandstorm is just stupid. Most teams cannot afford to fit in more than 2 mons or so to counter cacturne simply because it's not common, but if you don't have enough counters/get unlucky/ you do just lose. Since this gen has no team preview, that means you must always at every time play around cacturne, you cannot be on the back foot, ever. If you're on the back foot even once, cacturne can potentially sub, and now you run the risk of losing the whole game. Note, it's not a 100% chance, but the odds are against you and time is against you for basically every mon in the tier, besides celebi, who has it's own myriad of dangers to deal with. But no guys it's the "elephant in the room being touted as a fact....?" Wait what does that even mean. Re-reading your comment (adding the part I just do not get) of "missing cacturne/gligar (who I didn't mention as much but funni SD) is not an auto loss and that is.... the elephant in the room [makes sense here] that is being touted as fact (???)" Who is touting missing turne/gligar being not an auto loss as a fact? Isn't that what you just said? Are you saying you're employing a fallacy? Elephant in the room implies something that everyone sees, but ignores, you're the one mentioning the "elephant in the room" but you're touting it as fact? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding this portion, i'm assuming that it's saying that assuming missing the swords dance mon that can take a large bite out of swampert the mon who switches into everything, and cacturne who can beat it's counters because funni, means you lose is what is being touted as fact, and the elephant in the room is it not being that (not sure where the fallacy part kicks in, maybe false equivilancy? but you're right, you have a higher chance to miss and lose vs cacturne than to get a hidden star block, so.....) but the way it's worded comes out as the opposite. If I am wrong on what you meant, please say so.
@@dagui2973 your comprehension lmfao. Your entire paragraph is dependent on staying in. Just switch out on the protect if you're seeded, which also isn't guaranteed to hit you either. If cacturne becomes an OU threat simply aerial ace/send in a grass type lmfao. You're not bothering to think up outs or counters. What you touted as fact is a miss is essentially an autoloss. That is a fallacy. reductio ad absurdum. Look it up. You really like to type but clearly don't enjoy reading or subtext. The fact is 8/10 times you're going to crack the cacturne and make it completely useless. 8/10 times they just packed a nearly useless mon. Actually a little higher than that because Cacturne can miss the leech seed. Is the 20% miss annoying? Yes. Is it an autoloss? No. If it ever became ubiquitous people would start packing true counters. There are many outs. People just don't want to use their brain and run on autopilot.
voting wound up 25-7 to ban sv: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-ou-sand-veil-vote.3673145/
What's gonna happen to the Pokemon with only sand veil?
Rip... Gengar can counter both with destiny bond or perish song. He cant get hit by eq.
literally 1984
How did u predict scarlet violet???????? Real
I tried to like this video but I missed the 80%
Gosh dang 80% Accuracy Moves.
bruh
I love hearing about new developments in old meta-games.
hearing
@@litteleven7257 listening, with my ears
This is understandeble, but I just feel bad for cacturne mostly. One of my favorite pokemon by its looks and lore and in game use shat one by passage of time.The definition of Slow Frail Mixed Attacker with typing that makes dark/ice blush. So long sweet cactus child, people hardly knew you.
This is the saddest comment I've seen all day
You can still use it on sub OU tiers
@@hajdxhjjdjshsh2644 I know
@@helloiamenergyman sand veil is not banned in sub OU tiers, because there is no sand stream
@@hajdxhjjdjshsh2644 oh.
People arguing that they should be able to use a heavily luck based strategy because it “punishes bulky teams” is truly a competitive pokemon moment
Please make a video about team preview and how it shaped the metagame when it was introduced
Great idea
Sounds like something that would be on FSG
Cacturne: You took everything from me
Smogon: I don't even know who you are
Didn’t expect BKC going full rap god mode at 1:33 lol
Rap god BKC is terrifying. Just imagine having to argue against this man and then he pulls this out.
There's just something so jarring about hearing him talk that fast
At this point I am not even here to listen. I am just here because I rely on confirming that you're not just a voice in my head and that I am not talking to myself about the intricacies of bulky waters in a 20 year old game
Your voice has grown on us all
6:56 and 26:57 here's the "thesis" of this video.
100 accuracy moves are not "always hit" moves, they were designed to be able to miss. the problem is evasion in general, and the game was designed with evasion in mind. if it wasn't every 100 accuracy move would be like arial ace. yet, this game design choice is inherently unhealthy for the modern competitive meta where sand is everywhere.
if there's an issue with evasion, make it universal. i feel like the sand veil ban should have been part of the evasion clause to begin with. in the end i support the SV ban, because I feel like its in the same spirit.
i'm a bit sad because I like seeing lil ol' cacturn wreck salamance and metagross in OU. I'm happy because the top players won't have to worry about the shitty RNG!
Still going through the video. I haven't played Pokemon since ORAS, but since then I've tried a bunch of other competitive games like Smash and Magic: the Gathering, and when it comes to consistency in "the better player wins", Pokemon lands somewhere in the middle I feel, where there's a lot of agency in the decision you get to make, but there's still hax and misses that are out of the player's control, and even if you try and play to maximize the situations where hax will not matter, your opponent is also trying to do the same thing, and there will always be critical turns with RNG (or if a player is behind, they may have to try and play for the hax). I can't help but feel if Nintendo were managing the competitive ADV singles metagame, we would still find things like Wobbuffet or Mewtwo to be broken, and Nintendo would do something about them, but they'd never touch Sand Veil, and we'd all be like current MtG players now, which is basically - "it is what it is, randomness is just part of the game", you just gotta deal with the better player losing a lot.
RNG also doesn't reduce the skill ceiling of a game, but it does increase uncertainty in outcome, aka luck. One key difference I suppose is that Sand Veil is RNG that is thrust upon you, whereas other moves you can choose whether or not you want to risk the miss, but at the end of the day, I feel like decision making is somewhat an illusion of control in Pokemon - there's still switching with 50/50s, speed ties, crits, misses, flinch, parahax, scald burns, etc.; having RNG that is inflicted on you feels bad, but there's still luck everywhere, and there are many games where the better player loses. Don't get me wrong, I think stuff like Sand Veil, swagger, etc. is total BS and are garbage mechanics, but I feel like (Singles) Pokemon players have only had the privilege (and it is a great privilege) to ban mechanics we consider BS only because the rules of Singles OU is handled by the players, and not by the company. But I don't feel like the game would lose competitive integrity with stuff like evasion, so much as swing Pokemon just a tad bit closer to Poker and other card games.
All that being said, would I vote for a Sand Veil ban? Absolutely. Fuck Sand Veil.
Pokemon tcg is really good about the better player winning
What's the problem with swagger?
@@mistermr2147
Edit: So I just found out Swagger was unbanned in gen 7 due to confusion / t-wave nerfs, but man, if you've never played against prankster T-wave / Swagger abuse in Gen 6, oh boy.
Prankster swagger / t-wave / substitute / foul play is very dumb, and not as inconsistent as it sounds, especially when surrounded by a reasonable team that would benefit from all the paralyzed / weakened mons. But it was also a good enough strat that you could win a surprising amount of games with just 6 swagger mons. Swagger didn't really get problematic until gen 6 though when we got Klefki / unbanned Thundurus which were the best abusers because of Prankster.
At it's peak, it was even stealing games in Ubers, though it was obviously inconsistent / controversial: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smart-strategy-swagger-1-peak.3508194/
glad to see this ability go after missing 2 booms in a row on Gligar while laddering ;w;
Everyone crying that people don't like RNG misses are probably the same people who support evasion moves lol
True true , although i almost lost a battle earlier because someone froze 3 of my pokemon in a row and then called me bad after he lost because of a miss.
@@sleprvrru6y-lin-92 that's what we call a showdown moment
Just missed 5 hits in a row against sand veil garchomp you love to see it
its in the game what is wrong with it :(
@@dddddjjjjjjjjjjjjful ever heard of literally any other ban?
somewhere, pregymleader justy is crying
Good luck in smog tour bro. Rooting for you
lmao I'm surprised it took this long. I remember straight up robbing kids with Cacturne years ago on the ADV ladder
I’m especially glad this shit got banned because of how I got kicked out of CI4 play-ins. I won r1, then r2 I got sand veiled g1, won g2 and got sand veiled again g3 and that was it. I usually hate stuff that messes with RNG in general but this one hit me harder than ever because it was my first time having a chance to fight for a CI spot
i think this was one of the most broken abilities ever. especially with chomp, just kill me.
Sand veil is dumb ... not just because evasiveness increase, it's because you don't take damage from sandstorm too.
( if my english is bad, sry ^^'. I just hope that it's not going to be a pain. Oh and i'm not a ADV player so if i'm saying smthing stupid forgive me, i just want to express my opinion about it ).
So sand veil with a pokemon like cacturne is dumb. Cacture : a spiker that beat every spinner in adv except fight types like hitmonlee, chan, top and ofc forretress... but : you can trap forretress with mag and rapid spin is not run on the "hitmon family" so that means that you can sub, leech seed, spam sub if you are faster and set up spikes when you get a miss thx to the evasiveness boost ! I suppose that if you are not running HP on cacturne it's because you want to spam sub easier because leech seed regen is "bigger" for you when HP base is low, i explain what i mean : you = 280 HP vs target = 330 HP, leech seed steals 1/8 of target's maximum HP so its means that here the target lose 41,25 HP but for you it is not 12,5 % that you're going to regen but it's 14,73% per turn ! Combined with the 6,25% of the leftovers because you don't take damage from sandstorm, the total is equal to 21% ! That's enormous ! So when you are spamming sub hoping to get a miss, that means that you lose only 4% per turn ! So a miss in this situation means that you get the sub and next turn is free = 1 layer of spikes ... and ofc without worrying about spinners because you can beat them easily with hp grass/dark or with needle arm and with your 115 basestat in spA. So imagine if cacturne was taking damage from sanstorm... only 14,73% per turn...
pokepast.es/f7e22c6b59b6a851
This is ABR team, as we can see there is no hazard remover so you have to trap skarm / forretress quickly as possible before they can set up spikes and annoy you. After that, cacture is totally free because skarm can use whirlwind and forretress have HP bug / HP fire and ofc use rapid spin removing the leech seed. And after chipping mons like mence and setting spikes, gligar is free, coupled and with t wave spam ( ttar, blissey and mag ) it can easily set up a sub + SD.
Great team, i really like it tbh.
How to counter it ? 1) Absorb leech seed 2) switch on a mon like salamence which is faster than cacture letting the cacture getting a sub 3) cross fingers hoping to hit, breaking the sub forcing the cacture to leave the field next turn. And if you miss, 2 possibilities.
Your mence is the only pokemon which outspeed cacturne, so y have to switch on a pokemon that can break the sub. After breaking it and absorbing leech seed you have to switch on mence and again hope to hit.
Mence is not the only pokemon that outspeed cacturne so you just have to switch and repeat the same thing that you did with mence.
But imagine if cacturne outspeed every pokemon of your team and if you miss only 1 move letting the cacturne having a sub ... that what happened with Tony vs TDK... this is just ... dumb.
I was thinking about aerial ace on salamence which never miss but idw to use that instead of hp fly and lose 10 in power just to counter a NU pokemon.
Dugtrio with HP bug is good too but you can miss because of sANd vEiL and get KO in return.
Celebi is immune to leech seed but gets trapped by the pursuit tar.
This is how a NU pokemon became one of the most broken pokemon in OU with the good support. No one regret you cacturne/gligar.
Thx for reading.
What would you want: win cause you land a move
Or: lose because you missed HP Flying?
Honestly, I think the sand immunity is an interesting tool that could have added variety had it not been stapled to abilities as uncompetitive as sand veil or sand rush.
yeeee boiiii we got him - after laddering for that suspect i knew i had to vote ban on it, I lost multiple games to gligar BS just while laddering xDD
i feel like while sand veil is getting banned, sand attack/flash and bright powder should get the heave ho too. they add nothing by being here, and they are really annoying to play against. dont get me wrong, theyre not nearly as bad, if only because the opportunity cost of running them is so much higher, but i really dont like being able to dodge 100% accurate moves. like you said, tbolt is ran over thunder even though thunder has a much higher bp and para rate because 30% of the time, thunder misses. if i can also miss tbolt, then the solution isnt "run shock wave lol" its to make it so that tbolt, a 100% accurate move, is 100% accurate
Random Bright Powder misses piss me off so much.
Sand attack and flash are both countered by switching, unlike evasion abilities, and item bans are pretty much non existent.
Bright powder misses are annoying yeah but you're taking up your item slot just to use it, and sand attack/flash take up important move slots and are countered by switching. You also actually have to use the move which doesn't factor if the other pokemon is faster, unlike the ability just existing. Active all the time.
Sand attack and flash take up a moveslot, take a turn to use, and unlike double team, they apply a debuff to the opponent, meaning that they can reset it just by switching. Bright powder takes up the item slot, and while opinions may differ regarding whether it should be banned, not being able to use another item (like leftovers, sash, or a choice item) is a notable opportunity cost, while pokemon with evasion abilities may not even have another ability that they'd rather use (or, in ADV cacturne's case, not have another ability, period.)
Justy: Haha. Sand Veil go brrr.
Smogon: How many times do we have to teach you this lesson, old man?
Imagine seeing someone miss a selfdestruct and thinking "yeah, that seems fair. This should totally be allowed to happen in a tournament setting."
You’re out here dropping huge trues about how past metas continue to evolve and this is true not just of Pokémon but of all competitive series.
If Arean Trap also gets banned then that will make Dugtrio have no Ability for ADV OU.
i feel like people forget that even old generations still evolve in combat - and it’s a shame that they’re frowned upon. i couldn’t say it any better than how you explained it.
Lmao BKC's rant at the beginning was pure gold 😂😂😂
You had me at excessive RNG combined with opportunity cost. It takes way too much investment to shut it down, and everyone looooves RNG in a competitive environment.
Poor Cacturne. The first shiny Pokémon I ever caught. Shame that he’ll be relinquished to the lower tiers forever on this one, though it is impressive on how just one ability can throw off the balance of an entire metagame. Makes me wonder what ADV OU would look like without any permanent weather... Probably unrecognizable.
cune and lax would be uber
at 18:16 looking at chat we can see that Star wasn't satisfied with the outcome
I loved sweeping with +2 speed cacturne with sub punch ingrain and hp whatever lol
Sand Veil is the main point of the video, but my main take away is that I've never wanted BKC to play pokemon XD or colosseum more in my life. I know you can't be 100% competitive with limited choices/movesets, but dear God consider a playthrough
I’m being stupid rn, but I didn’t get what your comment means
@@MathsTution-lo4jl Colosseum and XD have very few Pokemon you can actually use. Colosseum has about 40 if I remember right, and some of those are hot garbage like slugma, and with TMs being very scarce, the movesets on good Pokemon would be only like two useable moves. I wanted to see BKC apply his vast knowledge to games that force you into using things you wouldn't consider using at all
@@AndyPelf Ohhhh, I got it
thanks
@@MathsTution-lo4jl
Yeah... XD and Colosseum are known for having limited options.
Oh no, sand veil was banned. Guess I would have to ladder without clutch by my side
Man Cacturne is one of my favorite pokemon from when I beat emerald for the first time with it as one of me best mons. Understandable why sand Veil had to go, I more so wish it had another ability so I could mess around with it atleast
Considering all this, which i entirely agree with, I'm curious about something. How do you feel about Serene Grace? To me, on a surface level, it feels like it's the exact same thing, but I'm not nearly as experienced, so I'd be glad to hear why it's not as bad.
They won't have an argument for you because it is already an established part of the meta they spent so many years learning.
Jirachi with body slam and increased chance of freeze, burn and paralysis from elemental punches and tbolt/thunder can be really annoying to run into. Also, Dunsparce with body slam and headbutt + rock slide :o
18:07 nobody :
starmaster : triggered
This is definitely going to help the metagame
auctioneer BKC at 1:33
I was running ADV sand veil sub leech seed cacturne years ago.. interesting to see it become an issue now.
this is so funny, gligar and cacturne holy shit
They are such babies honestly, they can't handle ,2 Pokémon with pathetic base stats in comparison to some OU pokes like tyranitar
@@quwuirkyturkey just use foresight bro
@@quwuirkyturkey I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. anyone mind telling me which one it is?
@@patrickstar8132 yeh it’s sarcasm, why would I use babies.
We are living through the great fall of smogon.
Does this mean Cacturne will be Uber or would it be NU by technicality but it's banned from being used from OU?
the latter, for the same reason dugtrio is still usable in dpp uu
there's no sand stream in lower tiers so Cacturne shouldn't be a problem there
What is the background music here. Love colo music
Hey that's me!
Fun fact: thanks to the adv ou sand veil ban, dpp uu is the only non ubers meta in any gen with permanent sand storm that still allows sand veil.
Kind of a shame you didn't bring up how some teams would put both Cacturn and Cacnea on the same team.
Another pokemon with subpar stats banned due to having a decent ability that would let it thrive in ou. They could have banned tyra and sand veil on same team without banning a whole pokemon in the process. Granted this lets the player use the sand set up by opponent but its a trade off for not using tyranatar on ur team.
So balanced in a way.
Hey Idk if you know about this but they basically did this for excadrill back in gen 5. Excadrill was not allowed on sand teams but was on every other team. Excadrill soon became the best sand counter in the game. Using the opponents sand against them and still staying just as omnipresent and oppressive. The same would have happened if smogon did what you just suggested but maybe even worse.
While Cacturn and Gligar aren't as amazing as excadrill, but ADVs entire meta is mostly centered around sand being up. Sand is so omnipresent that I believe disallowing sand veil on a team with sand basically would make a meta where you either have standard ADV teams that have sand and a fuck ton of counters to sand veil pokemon. Simply because sand is so good, or teams that abuse sand veil to the topmost degree.
@@UrshifuYaoi69 i basically suggested the same treatment that excadrill got for cacturn and gligar.
Smogon doesn’t do complex bans. Banning combinations of Pokémon is a complex ban therefore Smogon would never touch it. Complex bans scare away new players too much.
@@dylanf3108 They do in fact do complex bans though. Drizzle and Swift Swim together have been banned before.
@@dylanf3108 They did a baton pass ban in ADV OU where they decided to not allow more than 3 baton pass users on the same team, as well as that the baton passer cannot be Smeargle.
I hate to hear about OU viable pokemon being banned because I love pokemon variety, but I can’t say I don’t agree that Sand Veil is really fucking dumb.
hey BKC can I get your opinion on evasion and baton pass in BW ubers?
ban the hell out of both
Tried testing sand veil in my HG using bright powder garchomp. Always got hit, so I never imagined sand veil was actually that effective
It's not they just cry when they lose to hax.
I find it amusing that this is Dugtrio’s only other ability in gen 3- aside from Arena Trap, which is arguably more broken. Though I guess Arena Trap is necessity for ADV OU?
So using a broken ability in the tier to counter other broken stuff is healthy
Dugtrio trapping other dug is a common thing and most of the ways beat is like that or having most of your pokemon not touch the ground like the super man team
we need sand veil zygarde in gen 5
We should ban paralysis, the chance for freeze and all moves with imperfect accuracy while we’re at it. If someone’s butthurt we should change everything
No, because paralysis can be stopped by grounds and natural cure mons, freeze has only a 10% chance, and imperfect accuracy moves are your choice if you're choosing to run them at all, meanwhile this has counterplay in weakening yourself with inferior moves that miss out on KOs or just straight up not being able to do anything but hope to not miss, has a 20% chance to make your best moves miss and gives you no choice in whether you want to take the risk, all if you run into the undisputed best pokémon in the entire metagame in either team
@@vtmagno23 I get where you’re coming from, but there’s specifically 2 Pokémon that have a set ability that only activates in sand(which is common). There’s moves that bypass accuracy(ace/toxic on a poison type etc). The main issue is opportunity cost. People don’t want to switch their sets and lose out on power/moves or not bring sand/a weather changer to deal with it.
@@vtmagno23 Well put.
The whole reason we are concerned about things that are "too good" is because this is a competition, and the goal is to show that you're actually better than someone rather than just relying on brain-dead tactics to get through. If you couldn't win without SV, then get better and win without it.
And sure, there's good reason to use overpowered things, but not in a competition. Guns are OP as hell compared to other animals, but fighting for your life is a valid reason to be OP. Competition is not because it's boring, and then people stop competing and the game dies.
TL;DR: Get Gud Scrub
If all the Sand Veil mons had other abilities then I'd be right with you on the ban but for Cacturne and Sandslash that's all they have and you want to prevent them from being used with the most common pokemon who is seen in 90% of matches because its annoying.
You should adapt to it, use ways of countering it as people go out of there way for much bigger threats and have adapted to far worse then this.
Maybe only ban on OU or something
@@hajdxhjjdjshsh2644 Sand Veil is only banned in ou. There isnt even perma sand in UU and Below
Well, it you really want to use Cacturne then just use him in NU. I suppose it's kind of bad that his spiking niche is gone but it's a small price to pay for the removal of something with no counterplay
@@hajdxhjjdjshsh2644 there isn't an nu ladder tho so I can't play it extensively
@@quwuirkyturkey You can play it on ROA Spotlights and challenging people in the Ruins of Alph room
Cacturn would love to go down in history as an Ubers 'mon
Imo sandvail ban in ADV isn't nescessary, bc gligar is not a threat and cacturne dies to aerial ace and can't leech grass types.
It just gives aerial ace (on mence, aero, dug and even skarm) , grass types and sun/rain teams another reason to be used, which are all not very common in the current meta.
Just bc something is frustrating to deal with for the usual big 5 teams doesn't mean automatically it's banworthy
The scarecrow that scared an entire playerbase
Haven't watched yet but I kind of disagree with it on face value. Between its subseeding, Needle Arm flinch, and Sand Veil, Cacturne has a niche as a stallbreaker. It uses these RNG elements over time to accrue momentum against stall. Can you really call it RNG or blame RNG for a loss against Cacturne when it's piling on these elements over multiple turns for it to be effective at all? It's really quite consistent over multiple turns.
All this being said, I'll listen to the reasoning. Haven't played ADV for about a year now.
the whole point is that it's too consistent at dodging moves, meaning that it's consistently hard to hit it as well, and that is thoroughly stupid
I never played advance but why arena trap is not broken this gen, I'm curious
The reason arena trap isn’t busted in adv is because the meta is pretty trapper heavy anyway, and because dugtrio being locked into a move by choice band is far more abusable. Also dugtrio is one of the defining pieces of ADV, and removing it would ruin the meta.
Porygon 2 is often used to copy dugtrios arena trap with trace and give it a taste of its own medicine, and magneton is used often to forcefully destroy skarmory.
In ADV there's no U-turn/Volt Switch to get Dugtrio in safely, you have to double-switch or revenge-kill, also no team preview helps in that regard, making it riskier in general to double-switch, additionally there really isn't a truly broken strategy based around Dugtrio, one of the most common that comes to mind is dual trap+weather reset+Curse Snorlax which isn't even that good imo.
Unlike later generations which saw dug as suboptimal, and then evolved a meta ignoring it, which led to it's usage spike breaking them wide open, adv has grown up with dug, thus it has adapted to it's presence well enough.
The lower power level of ADV means that it's harder to win a game off of a single trap. The fact that dugtrio runs choice band and can't run sash also means that it has to be able to survive a hit from its victim in order to do its job. Finally, the focus on spikes and lack of stealth rocks gives a major incentive to run ground-immune pokemon who also happen to ignore arena trap (as opposed to later gens where flying-types have their longetivity cut down by stealth rocks.)
You put the veil over Sand Veil
NOOOO POOR SANDSLASH :(
EDIT: Sandslash is now defacto banned from Gens 3-5 OU
Now Gen 3 will be so much more fun. I've straight up lost games to that annoying cactus.
Man, look at Dragonite's big ole chomper.
3:50 How? Because of new unforeseen bugs in RBY like bide quadrupling damage dealt if confuse ray is used?
6:07 If Cacturne is really good with Sub Seed and Sand Veil, then is it only because no one thought of using it in OU before Sand Veil got banned, that's it's still NU?
1. like I said, if a metagame is played by high level players in high level tournaments, that metagame will evolve and move forwarded, even if it is old, and this is especially true of rby. it is a natural change, not stemming from bug discovery or anything like that
2. also like I said, until this year it had not been figured out how to best make consistent use of cacturne
I think they should've banned sand veil + sand stream so Cacturne could still exist
It still exists in the lower tiers. It was only banned from OU due to the permanent sandstorm in that tier.
Good video
Not that your reasoning is wrong, but I'm hoping that Gen 4 Machamp isn't banned at this rate for it's No Guard Dynamic Punch, or that No Guard overall isn't banned
that will 100% not happen
maybe maybe not older gens councils have been hit with the small brain virus that previously only infected current gen ou council so well have to see lmao
About fucking time
hi bkc, say hi back!
hi, icaro. bye, sand veil!
ruclips.net/p/PLoncWiRvwYi4ndjbsKTfDMSNks4iyujWX
For all who want it, a BKC educational content playlist. Does not include replay analyses if they are not part of Pokemon's greatest battles series.
WAIT WHAT?! That gligar thing surprised me since gligar is kinda weak.
Cacturne should have kept sand veil, without it it's useless and with it it can finally do something. They should atleast give it a buff like in stats (Shiftry should also get one) or a mega evolution with good stats (+ speed and defense or so).
Wouldnt it make more sense to ban sand stream
not that there is anything wrong with preferring tyranitar in ou over cacturne, but i think you could argue that the problem is actually tyranitar. there will always be para-flinch and such in pokemon, and its annoying, and viable, but not necessarily busted (except Skymin i suppose), what's busted about sand veil is that sandstorm is permanent. then again maybe not, since sand veil had to be banned in a meta in which sand could be ended with rain or sun, but it also had 2 really really powerful mons that didnt even need sand veil to be borderline broken, but they had it on top of that
Exactly this. Something is worth banning if it doesn't have counters. SV has a plethora of counters that could have been explored. They simply did not give it time. The game they mastered was ironically evolving and they didn't want to adapt to newly emerging meta.
Trap tar and change the weather. Cloud 9 jank to counter jank. Slap on a wide/scope lens. Start packing destiny bond or perish song. Start using grass pokemon, cuck them with swift.
Maybe it was broken. Maybe it wasn't. We'll never really get the chance to know.
@@ThatGuyThai And here I was thinking you guys hated stall. Sand stream is the main way to neutralize leftovers on bulky threats like snorlax, suicune and zapdos, hence why some teams will run manual weathers to clear the sand. Banning sand stream makes these pokemon much harder to break through.
@@emmetstanevich2121 what's this you say? Some teams change the weather? Oh if only they considered that for NU sand veil pokemon.
i always liked snow cloak and sandveil bcuz of the anime
Couldn’t you just run aerial ace on salamence or toxic on a poison type if you’re that worried about it?
aerial ace is much worse than hp flying and doesn't hit gligar hard at all. poison-types don't have 100% toxic pre-gen 6 (and it doesn't do anything considering these pokes spam sub). the only good poison-types in ou are gengar and venusaur, neither of which are particularly good toxic users, and both are bad against a corresponding sand veil user (gar gets smacked by cacturne's hp dark, venusaur gets smacked by gligar's hp flying)
@@BKCplaysPokemon that makes sense, ty for the response!
@@BKCplaysPokemon I forgot HP was 70 in adv
I'm so glad sand veil is finally banned. Altough I like adv OU, I'm mostly a vgc player, and when I started playing competitively there was this video on youtube ruclips.net/video/rqKIgBVBAq8/видео.html that really explains in a minute how broken sand veil is. I have lost myself a very important match as well because of sand veil since a Garchomp dodged my Hydreigon's dragon pulse (I didn't want to miss the meteor) back in 2013 nationals... it's a really dumb ability in conjunction with Tyranitar
:0
Ok that Agility pass was pure bullshit haha
Just use Mind Reader Blizzard Articuno I don’t see what the problem is
Agree
Why is it not okay to run Rain Dance on Pokemon to counter this strategy, while plenty of Pokemon will run specific moves like HP Grass to counter stuff like Swampert? Why are some Pokemon allowed to be strong and some are not allowed to be strong?
This is less “skill based” like other annoying or stall mons who have reliable checks and require brain to pilot, even at the lowest level, this is just “I will set up sand and now you’d better hope you hit me an nth amount of times if I outspeed cause sub, good luck. That’s all the strat is, luck. You either get lucky and kill it or don’t and lose instantly. That just isn’t competitive. That’s like saying “put items on in smash, you can counter the green koopa shell so it’s balanced!”
@@dagui2973 terrible argument. One could say the complete opposite. You better hope I miss you otherwise you threw the game.
There's also no sentiment that a miss is an auto win. Something is worth banning if there are no true counters. Something as simple as weather or cloud 9 jank ruins this entire strategy. Counter bad pokemon jank with other bad pokemon jank if it really emerges to completely change the meta.
Give it the time it deserves evolve the meta and if no true counters arise, ban it. This decision was made in haste by the few, for the many.
Sadly it makes it look like players who spent years mastering the current meta weren't willing to allow that meta to evolve.
@@ThatGuyThai In the gen 5 section about sleep, a single free turn's value is explained, evasion raising moves are moves that give you a chance to get a free turn, and that can be much more powerful than a swords dance boost.
On the point about cloud 9, It's just not on enough good mons, and it's not like only trash mons get double team, or sand veil, Golduck isn't magically going to 10-0 garchomp because it removes sand veil, or do literally anything else to the rest of the team. That's the problem with running bad techs like aura sphere mienshao or something to get around evasion, you run a bad option against 99% of the teams to not risk the chance to give a free turn to kartana because oops my fire punch missed now D-nite loses to kart.
(unless it's something like haze pex, but the amount of viable options that counter specific things without making the set less able to handle consistent threat/teams is very low.)
When do you think cacturne was banned? It wasn't 19 years ago, it wasn't 10, it was last year. Because people did experiment with evasion, and instantly found something degenerate. "I hope my hp flying hits or my counter is no longer a counter" Is not skillful gameplay, and "just run golduck to get rid of the sand" ignores the fact that 1.T-Tar is the reason sand is on field at all times, and 2. Golduck does not have a niche in OU. It can't break anything, It's not fast, it's utility is solely in cloud 9, but clearing weather isn't worth a full slot, if you want to clear it fully you'd have to play most of the game without golduck, and than after you kill t-tar send it out.
Also, the idea that something should only be banned if it has ZERO counters is absurd. Dracovish had 2 concrete counters, seismetoad and gastrodon, you could also run other water absorb/storm drain mons to deal with it, but you HAD to run one. Mons or strategies that are suffocating in terms of team building tend to be banned. Espescially if the checks/counters are incredibly limited, that's not to say mons WITHOUT counters cannot/should not be banned, but having no counters should not, and is not a REQUISITE to be banned.
>counter bad pokemon jank with bad pokemon jank (I should've structured this comment better, but I wanted to make sure my message on this point was properly communicated.) It won't be bad pokemon abusing it unless A. it's incredibly degenerate and the good mons cannot use/learn it (If pert had sand veil, it'd be able to use cacturne's set infinitely better) which, is a mute point for evasion because double team is nearly ubiquitous, or they have 4 move syndrome really bad or do not benefit off of it, but usually mons with 4 move syndrome tend to do really good with free turns, like gen 6 gren, but an example of the second category would be ferrothorn, they don't quite benefit off of evasion, so they wouldn't run it. But bulk-up zeraora? Yeah it could run it, or something like crawdaunt on a switch, and unlike an SD boost, you can't "tank" evasion, the way to outplay evasion is just never give them a turn of momentum, not form U-turn, Volt switch, getting a mon ko'd, them making a prediction, because one mistake and now every move is stone edge, good luck or blacephelon will eat you, oh also, I forgot about this, but fast subs + evasion = pain, as you have to continually roll stone edge. What would you counterplay it with besides being perfect and predicting correctly at every juncture? uhhhh infiltrator shadow punch or something (does any mon have that combination) Haze pex/fini? But blaceph isn't even a bad mon, but if you aren't prepared for sub team blaceph and it gets a single turn you can lose the entire game. A good player with evasion could definitely leverage that.
Also, just dropping things into a meta and seeing if it works gets you things like Genesect returning to OU in every gen to immediently be banned. It's tested, it's still genesect so it destroys OU, it gets banned immedietly after by vote. But hey what would evasion coming back bring to the table in terms of positivity? After all, Excadrill came back from ubers in B2W2 when hazards were getting to be a bit too much, so lets consider what it'd add. Another set to basically every viable offensive mon from PU all the way to OU (uber has alot more aura sphere than other tiers, but it's still not ubiquitous) in which you now have a chance to miss them and lose momentum/a mon/the game, or you hit them and all stays the same (bulky sweepers/setup sweepers also get to run this too btw, and of course we have the classic toxic minimize recover (x) set.). So it adds a greater element of uncertainty in your opponent's sets. In gen 1/2 this could be pretty novel, Past gen 3 though, missing a single turn could prove catastrophic, and it introduces that chance to more pokemon in more situations. It adds more chance for you to get rng'd. People HATE moves like focus miss and stone miss because their accuracy, there's a reason people run surf over hydro, Tbolt over thunder in gen 4 ubers is an actual decision even though kyogre is there, simply because missing is awful. That choice is ripped away and now you are forced to roll stone edge when your opponent clicks double team on your switch after they volt switch into mega medicham in gen 6 OU, now, do you roll on hitting your hurricane here? Will your shadow ball connect? Will moonblast hit? Is he even going to stay in? Am I going to stay in? What do I do if I miss, am I just dead? It adds more decision making, but unlike playing around freeze in gen 1 with chansey, you do not have the luxury of nearly infinite hp and no risk to the mon besides freeze, if you make the wrong play vs this cham, vs blaceph, vs zeraora, vs chomp, you could very well lose an important mon/hp on an important mon or the game.
I just want to say at the end of this bloody essay, out of everything you've written, to say that they only master the "current meta" of not just current gen, but the implied other gens is an insult to the scene. Raikou was just dethroned of the second best in gen 2 last year, Lanturn is seeing a rise in popularity and Mr Mime just got banned in ADV OU, Gen 4 Ubers is in a renissance period and is in the spotlight after the arceus ban, Gen 5's sleep ban was this very year, improvements and adjustments are ALWAYS being made to ANY metagame, as long as there is a single player who cares. You do not *need* to inject new moves, new pokemon, new ANYTHING, for a metagame to grow. You do not N E E D to inject evasion into a metagame, when it has little if any positive effect on the metagame, and a negative effect on the competitive nature of and player morale (try to tell me you didn't get pissed when your older brother pulled out the minimize strats, or the AI pulls out double team in the battle tower and fucks with you).
Evasion just is not it. It is not that it has not been tested, nor that people (besides you, oh great one) want to adapt, or that the people (who play smogon's formats) secretly want evasion but can't rebel against the smogon overlords, it is unhealthy and has proven so in the tests it has been given, and as the game's mons grow more powerful, or the metagame more experienced, a single missed turn will only become more and more dangerous.
TL:DR. There is none. Read the essay.
@@ThatGuyThai If cacturne is spamming substitute, it only really needs you to miss one time within the next three turns. If you miss at any point, it's kinda ggs, since Cacturne can seed you, and then fish for flinches. Even if you break the sub, it can just make another.
@@emmetstanevich2121 and then you switch into Venusaur or any grass type and it literally cannot do anything to you. You can just phase it. You can poison it. So many answers. If something is broken, it has few or no answers. Cacturne has MANY, people just don't want to build around 1 mon, but if it started stealing tournaments, they would. Any OU mon is far more useful.
Its these arguments that will eventually lead to banning sand, magnet pull and arena trap.
RNG is Pokémon and always has been. Low rolls, high rolls, misses and crits. Can they break a game? Maybe, but if skill is involved, you can't depend on these things to develop high tier consistency.
Sand is by far the the most impactful part of gen 3, negates the best item in the game, takes away boost berries along with reversal and blaze boost type abilities.
I didn't agree with this one because I don't think relying on hax makes you the more consistent winner. Can it clutch or steal a win? Sure, but that's always been Pokémon.
We haven't banned bright powder, crits, freezes, paralysis, confusion or flinches, but when you start banning SV, you enter a route that will lead to a very stale version of the game.
In my opinion something should only reach banned status if there are no/few true counters to it. Weather counters SV. Perish song, destiny bond, wide lens/scope lens, hell seeing guaranteed hit moves like aerial ace or swift would have been interesting counters.
What I would have loved to see is more time. The meta was simply evolving and those who voted axed it simply because they devoted their lives to understanding the current meta. They didn't want the game they mastered to change.
If we gave it time, and SV became prevalent, no doubt people would come up with counterplay to switch it up. The game state would have been wildly refreshing to witness for such an old game. I would celebrate ADV history.
At that point, if it is still showing itself to be broken, with the time allotted only then would I say it was worthy of banning, because counters were explored and they failed.
Instead we have axed an emerging and evolving meta out of fear and inexperience. This was done with too few parties involved. The few chose the landscape for the many. It's incredibly embarrassing to be honest.
There are far more abilities and items that are impactful without any or many counters to them in comparison. Problem is you accept those because they're established and part of the norm. When something comes from left field and challenges the norm, you should allow it time to consider its true impact, not fear it.
I agree. Sand Stream is the real thoughtless ability. Why are the rules being bent around the broken mechanic at expense of everything else? Typical Smogon. As time goes on, it feels less like Pokemon.
If you guys don't want to miss maybe pokemon should just ban evasion. Like it is part of pokemon and it's logical that moves miss and pokemon in hail or sandstorm are more difficult to hit. Why you all get so annoyed by it, it's part of the game. Stop crying over evasion, it's in every game.
Rayquaza is apart of the game, so are Kyogre and the Lati twins but I guess we should bring them to OU.
Did you actually watch the video? Because he refutes this point and states why evasion is in general is banned in the first 10 minutes.
"Sand Veil Garchomps" in ADV OU, oh boy.
The fact that evasion moves and such are banned even in Ubers is disgusting IMO. Ban stuff from your "official" metagame, sure, but there's a reason I've been calling for Anything Goes to be a real thing in older gens.
Cool story m8
Aerial ace exist
Amazed that Sand Stream is still allowed as the only perma-weather in Gen 3 OU, yet somehow it's.. Sand Veil that is being seen as the problem.
Drought and Drizzle are only on Ubers. That’s why they’re banned in gen 3.
Smogon: Sand veil is uncompetitive because it allows you to dodge attacks
Also Smogon: Aerial ace is utter dogshit, run focus blast, fire blast, blizzard instead
if smogon mods didnt have double standards theyd have no standards at all
Cant tell if your trolling or not lol
In case this isn't a troll; BKC addressed this exact issue when he talked about the opportunity cost of using generally inferior moves. He even addresses why Aerial Ace specifically is bad in this match-up at 10:34.
Aerial Ace is outclassed by HP flying in ADV OU and Dual Wingbeat rn. Evasion raising is extremely rare in smogon singles, and so Aerial Ace is 99.9% of the time worse than HP flying.
@@siddharthnandi3995 so let's ban a pokemon that might give a ou stall team trouble 0.01% of the time?
May as well ban crits
A crit is outside of any player's control, evasion is a conscious decision from a team builder trying to exploit a miss for a competitive edge. This is a false comparison.
@@MegaDav1234 no ones banning slash or scope lens. That evasion is outside of control too. You have no control over them hitting or missing. Just as you don't have control over crit even with high critical hit ratio moves.
@@ThatGuyThai Even when you build for crits, they're far from guaranteed and you may only have one shot to do anything meaningful before the opponent KO's your mon with a switch in. Moreover, crits have a huge metagame benefit by giving teams a fighting chance against defense boosting mons like Snorlax. Since every mon has the same crit chance by default you don't need to waste a moveslot to reap the benefit either.
Evasion requires specific set up with specific mons and specific counterplay is needed to consistently thwart it. These come in the form of wasting a move slot on a few members of your team just to prepare for a cheesy, skill-less gimmick that youre very unlikely to come across, which is antithetical to the mentality of playing optimally by preparing for as many teams as possible in one set. Evasion also benefits having multiple chances to proc by using moves like substitute and leech seed, especially if the evading mon is faster than the opposing mon and substitute ruins any switches to counter it. Good luck aerial acing the Cacturn with Dugtrio when its behind a sub preparing to needle arm it in return.
Crit builds are cheesy and bad too in the same way, but they're not powerful enough to ruin an otherwise great metagame and one crit may not even amount to anything useful. Making a move miss is always useful and makes it possible to win matches you have no business winning because you just relied on luck.
@@MegaDav1234 I basically had to stop reading because, even if you build for crits you're far from guaranteed. This is the same case as SV. Even when your entire moveset and/or items revolve around the miss, it's not guaranteed. In fact less of a guarantee than crits.
I read the rest and I get the arguments but crits, burn, freeze, para, confusion all super detrimental if they even show up once, but we currently accept it because that's Pokémon.
@@ThatGuyThai If you stopped reading then you missed the point I was trying to make - you get maybe one shot with a crit, you get many chances with SV and only need one to change the matchup unalterably. At least try and understand what's being said before saying something moronic. Consider this conversation over, I'm not going to talk to someone who won't even try to understand what's being discussed.
Can't you just ban sand veil with tyranitar? So you can't have cacturne and tyranitar on the same team, but can have something to punish your opponent's tyranitar?
if it's so unfair that you can't use it on your own team, why is it fair that it can be used against you
@@BKCplaysPokemon I don't think utilizing the ability of your opponent's Pokemon to your benefit is unfair. It's like trace with magnet pull or arena trap. Moreover, having something to punish the best Pokemon in the format seems fair. Maybe it'll make tyranitar a little less viable but is that really such a bad thing?
And if you really don't want to deal with sand veil you can always opt to not have tyranitar on your team. Sand veil isn't very OP if you have to set up with sandstorm right?
@@Habitual_mufnttar isnt broken whatsoever in adv and keeping/introducing something broken to check it as if you dont have a kajillion options already is respectfully speaking insane
They should really make bans like this apply only to tournament play and not Laddering; this is the type of shit that just limits the fun people can have on laddering which is totally inconsequential. I don’t see why Sand Veil or Dugtrio has to be banned for randoms on ladder when it is only an issue for the top 1% of players.
@FullTimeSlacker Go play tournies, big guy.
@@mrniceguy7168 bad opinion is bad
Notification squad
Very cringe ban its like yall dont know aerial ace
first of all, not all pokemon can learn aerial ace. second of all, its just stupid how pokemon needs to learn aerial ace just to deal with sand veil user.
@@skyrealmrobuxroboxobbytower its not that busted
@@skyrealmrobuxroboxobbytower since wgen did every pokrmon nred to learn aa? Also there other moves that don't check accuracy
@@mynameischess230 yes but not a lot of moves
@@skyrealmrobuxroboxobbytower Yeah but it's not like most of OU cannot learn it
Smogon: No Fun Allowed.
Misshax isnt fun. Do that skilless crap in cartidge play
@@RinaShinomiyaVal your one of those poeple stay triggered
Guess we should bring Rayquaza to OU. Broken isn’t fun.
@@dylanf3108 ahh, reductio ad absurdum, I get it.
There's nothing fun about Sand Veil hax. It's totally luck based.
im so early eek
Or stop trying to make Pokemon into chess and accept that luck is a factor? Learn to run Aerial Ace. For all I care use Sweet Scent to increase your hit chance again. You're literally banning Gligar and Cacturne because they were having a chance against the top tier teams? So no top tiers should be threatened by UU and lower tier mons?
Sweet scent fails on sub. People tend to like to decrease luck or make it as insignificant as possible in competitive games. So to have a mon that is just “don’t get bad luck or you instantly lose” is not only very unbalanced, but uncompetitive. They aren’t being banned because they CAN they’re being banned because of HOW they do it. In a degenerate Mario party manner. “Oops your opponent rolled and landed on a hidden star space on the last turn guess you lost, maybe you should’ve just removed one of your buttons from your controller that you could use for anything else to move the hidden star one space. “
Bad opinion is bad.
@@dagui2973 the difference here is that it doesn't equate an auto loss. That's the elephant in the room being touted as fact. It's a fallacy.
@@ThatGuyThai You miss against cacturne and suddenly your mence goes from "cacturne counter" to having been seeded while cacturne still has it's sub, meaning mence loses the MU cause cacturne can protect (recover 18%, 12% chip on mence if mence has lefties otherwise an additional 6% chip on mence, at this point, cacturne has already recovered 6% bare minimum from having used sub how many turns ago) Meaning it can now sub up on mence, than protect again, and net GAIN hp, while salamance is losing hp. This applies to pokemon faster than it with a counter move if they miss the sub or even miss the cacturne if the player is ballsy enough to go for it/over predicts. If your pokemon is slower than cacturne, than it just gets to do this regardless. ONE turn means your counter turns into a victim, and not every team will be packing 3-4 counters for cacturne, and cacturne being able to just drain mence, drain it's counters, drain what IT ALREADY counters in the nearly omnipresent condition of sandstorm is just stupid. Most teams cannot afford to fit in more than 2 mons or so to counter cacturne simply because it's not common, but if you don't have enough counters/get unlucky/ you do just lose. Since this gen has no team preview, that means you must always at every time play around cacturne, you cannot be on the back foot, ever. If you're on the back foot even once, cacturne can potentially sub, and now you run the risk of losing the whole game. Note, it's not a 100% chance, but the odds are against you and time is against you for basically every mon in the tier, besides celebi, who has it's own myriad of dangers to deal with.
But no guys it's the "elephant in the room being touted as a fact....?" Wait what does that even mean. Re-reading your comment (adding the part I just do not get) of "missing cacturne/gligar (who I didn't mention as much but funni SD) is not an auto loss and that is.... the elephant in the room [makes sense here] that is being touted as fact (???)" Who is touting missing turne/gligar being not an auto loss as a fact? Isn't that what you just said? Are you saying you're employing a fallacy? Elephant in the room implies something that everyone sees, but ignores, you're the one mentioning the "elephant in the room" but you're touting it as fact? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding this portion, i'm assuming that it's saying that assuming missing the swords dance mon that can take a large bite out of swampert the mon who switches into everything, and cacturne who can beat it's counters because funni, means you lose is what is being touted as fact, and the elephant in the room is it not being that (not sure where the fallacy part kicks in, maybe false equivilancy? but you're right, you have a higher chance to miss and lose vs cacturne than to get a hidden star block, so.....) but the way it's worded comes out as the opposite. If I am wrong on what you meant, please say so.
@@dagui2973 your comprehension lmfao. Your entire paragraph is dependent on staying in. Just switch out on the protect if you're seeded, which also isn't guaranteed to hit you either.
If cacturne becomes an OU threat simply aerial ace/send in a grass type lmfao. You're not bothering to think up outs or counters.
What you touted as fact is a miss is essentially an autoloss. That is a fallacy. reductio ad absurdum. Look it up. You really like to type but clearly don't enjoy reading or subtext.
The fact is 8/10 times you're going to crack the cacturne and make it completely useless. 8/10 times they just packed a nearly useless mon. Actually a little higher than that because Cacturne can miss the leech seed.
Is the 20% miss annoying? Yes. Is it an autoloss? No. If it ever became ubiquitous people would start packing true counters. There are many outs. People just don't want to use their brain and run on autopilot.
Smogon is trash tho.... always has been...
Then don't play