Will I Grieve in Heaven for My Unsaved Loved Ones?
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- Excerpted from Q&A Session on March 21st, 2023, by Fr. Peter Heers
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0:11 Is there pain of heart for Loved Ones not in Heaven?
0:50 Heaven on Earth is in The Orthodox Church.
1:38 Heaven and Hell begin HERE, In This Life.
1:58 God fillest all things.
3:00 Many Mansions, degrees, experiences of The Grace of God.
3:31 There won't be that sense that "they are not there." 4:50 It will not exist.
4:18 We are trying to use created terms to poke at uncreated mysteries.
I allow myself to be so tormented by this concern, which I know is in the hands of God who is just and merciful. And it strikes me that this insistence by me that I remain so downhearted and stressed over something beyond my judgment or, to a large degree, my influence is a way in which I as a baptised Orthodox Christian am closing my eyes to the light and clinging to hell here on earth. Lord have mercy on all sinners, of whom I am the first.
I cling to this worldy hell way too much. God help us!
@Ameretat010 Thank you, this is good medicine and entirely true.
How very true what you said Fr Peter ,"this is the question of a mother" - as a mother, I often have asked this in pain.
St. Sophrony on St. Silouan:
I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’
Obviously upset, The Staretz said:
‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire - would you feel happy?’
‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.
The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance:
‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all’.
How do we reconcile these statements of St. Silouan, especially the last one on Love (in which we will live in heaven) not being able to bear the suffering of our neighbour in hell? I do not mean to demonstrate that you are wrong - just genuinely trying to further my understanding. Thank you Father.
An interesting question I also want to hear about, thank you.
"The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb."
Thank you, Father. I've always wondered about this. Thing of it is, I don't even know if I'll make it. God willing, if I do, I have to humble myself and trust in God because the Lord tells us greiving does not exist in Heaven. It's not for me to try to figure out with my corrupted rational mind how or why. Unfortunately, I try to figure things out way too much. Lord have mercy.
I just had these thoughts recently and the questions with perhaps no answers.... Thank you Father.
Incredible. Glory to God
Heaven and Hell, and what might or might not be. This is such a good explanation. Thank you, Fr.
Fr. Please forgive me but can you say a prayer for my brother, he isn't an atheist and is the best brother in the world, but he hasn't gone go Church in a long time.
Thank you so much for this explanation.
You said we're not going to have the experience that the saint will have. Not gonna lie, that kinda crushed my spirit a bit but I'm still new to the orthodox faith.
Christ, the Son of God, experiences abandonment and cries out, "Eli, Eli lamah Shabachtani?" Why should we expect to not experience pain as well? He rose with His wounds, and those wounds are seated by the right hand of the Father. We too shall rise with our wounds in order to be like Him.
Thank you Father for the explanation ☦️
I talk about this subject all the time, and respectfully Father Peter, and you know that I respect you and I'm not to say it, my position is less refined than yours, although our conclusions are identical. Certainly, in the next life there will be no sickness or sorrow or sighing, but life Everlasting. I say that prayer everyday, especially since my son +Daniel died, and it's been said perhaps trillions of times, and God will hear the prayers of his people. So therefore there is no sighing or sorrow, no sickness; there's no regret, there's no depression there's not anything that is not the light, in the next life. Whether we know about our relationships with our loved ones or not is something that I don't understand. Perhaps we do. Perhaps we remember everything that happened and we remember it without pain . That's a difficult thing to understand but I suppose it is possible. women have babies and they remember tbe childbirth was painful but they don't grieve over it. So perhaps it is like that, or perhaps it is just that we're in the light. Saint Paul, who is very verbose in general, could only describe the resurrection by saying and we will be with the Lord. So, dear father, we agree on the absolute principle but as far as what happens I suppose none of us know yet to do we? I talk about this all the time because I talk to people from prison etcetera that have great regrets about their life, and it is helpful to them if they believe me, that in the next life there won't be any regrets no matter what they're going through now.
And also dear father Peter, they will not be social media and ignorant experts in the next life. That will certainly make things much easier won't it?
Priest Seraphim Holland
seraphim@orthodox.net
RUclips @orthodoxnet
I know too many people who are miserable with horrible anxiety or even a toxic mentality/view of the world. I always want to reach out but am always hesitant on timing or being preachy. I never understood breaching the topic with delicacy so more often than not never do
This makes me think about the Pharisee and the Publican in Luke, Chapter 18.
What should we ask: "When I get to Heaven, will I grieve for my loved ones who are not there?" or, "Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
We will pray for them if they are not there and we are
Can you give us a Patristic or otherwise Orthodox source for the concept of God arranging things so we don't have to be aware of our loved ones in hell and so avoid suffering there? The rich man and Lazarus were well aware of each other's condition. Can we get a source Mr Heers?
*Fr. Peter
"if we had any possessions, we should need weapons and laws to defend them."
Saint Francis
Saint Luke 14:33
So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions.
Fr. these stories the protestants and other evangelicals tell of their parish members sometimes have very near death experiences to where they die, enter the kingdom, and come back, is this accurate?
Fr Seraphim Rose addresses this extensively in his book The Soul After Death. Those experiences oftentimes are a deception, it is actually the soul simply leaving the body but it is still in this world, just the spiritual side of this world. It hasn't actually seen heaven at all.
@@paisios2541 ok thank you for the wisdom.
Heaven is a place of glory and love. I do not believe that God will take away your love for the ones that are not saved. But it is written that God will wipe away the tears. In that their will be no pain.
To love someone who is eternally unrepented sinner, i.e. he is in the same state as fallen angels, is not love.
@@emilbrusic6032 Not true. God is a personal relationship. To love is a choice. It's free will and that's how God is. He wants to be chosen. Not talking about the love of sin but the sorrow of loss. People damn themselves God only judges. To lose a loved one is sorrowful to the soul on earth and heaven. It's not a physical thing. God is there to give everything even the loss of pain of a lost love.
@@adamj2295 To love someone is not only to wish him good, but to know him in the Biblical sense, i.e. to be intimate with him. So love is relationship. Lord will say to the condemned,
I don't know you. So saints will say to theirs blood relatives and earthly friends who will be in the Hell, I don't know you.
And that is the answer to this question.
Nobody in the Heavenly Jerusalem will pity those outside in the Hell.
@@emilbrusic6032 We don't get intimate with everyone we love. That would be gross as we love our parents, children, siblings, friends, etc. There are different kinds of love. Eros is what you are describing. We must strive for agape.
@@emilbrusic6032 I think Fr. Peter Heers has answered the question with Christlike Love ☦️🤍☦️
Blessings, Father Peter. I have a question that I would like to ask, with no disrespect intended. I have often thought about this idea - with much distress - of my loved ones not attaining everlasting life with Christ. (I am not a mother - but have asked this question many times) The reason I think about this with distress is due to the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. This parable clearly shows us that we will see those we know who have not attained heaven. So how can we say that we will not grieve? I admit that we should not be shocked - if they didn't live a spiritual life here, we shouldn't expect them to live a spiritual life there, but what about our grief???
My guess is that the parable concerns the time before the Second Coming and final judgement.
Did not our Lord Himself say that every tear from our eyes will be wiped away?
Don't think that is correct answer, but perhaps it is in a right direction.
As I see, saints will be all and in the full capacity in God's love (uncreated energy which is God) so they will love God apsolutely, they will love all what God loves as well.
God can not love unrepented sinner (otherwise He will feel sorrow whole eternity), so saints can not love him as well.
Even when sinner is someone's spouse or child or father or mother in previous earthly life.
Otherwise, as f.Heers said, if saints will not know state of others who are condemned because then they will feel sorrow for them, then God who is everknowing and loves man more than any man could, will feel pain and sorrow for whole eternity.
We can not contemplate of Heaven & Hell with ours fallen mind and unclean love for our relatives, because then we could fall in Origen's apokastasis heresy or conclude something else which is also ilogic.
I'm assuming we'll still be praying for them perhaps?
St. Silouan of Athos says: "This is the paradise of the Lord: All will live in love, and their Christ-like humility will make every man happy to see others in greater glory!" That makes a little more sense than what you are saying Fr. Peter. The mind will be refashioned, people will not be sad over the fact that others have greater glory because that indicates pride. You mean, we won't recognize the fact that St. Nicholas has greater glory than us? It sounds strange. Is there any Church Father which says what you are saying? I only heard it once from Elder Ephraim.
If we will understand the greater glory, we will also understand the total loss and the alienation “below” or beyond us, correct?
@@OrthodoxEthos Father, those are two totally different things. The first suggests that there could be jealousy (a passion) in heaven. The other suggests that there would be sorrow. I doubt either would exist there. But, an interesting thought: there is joy in heaven over one sinner who repents. There is sadness, according to St. Macarios the Great, over the lost soul, in heaven.
Remember the miracle of the Russian Bishop Saint who appeared to his priest asking for him to commemorate the souls of his parents because "the Liturgy has more power than my private prayers." He knew that his parents were in need of prayers.
We can turn that around to those who will be in torment. Will they have pain for anyone else? They will most likely be too focused on their own suffering to worry about another. The only example I can think of, though, is the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. At first the rich man is selfish. He thinks of himself first to ask Abraham to send Lazarus to quench his torment with a small relief. That denied, only then does he even consider others that they might be saved from torment. However, those in heaven would naturally be the opposite of the rich man, not selfish but having true love and it would seem that they would indeed be concerned for those left behind but then again the parable, seems more about warning the listener that our time is limited rather than it explaining in heaven we will have any concern. While we are here, we need to overcome our uncomfortableness and plant what ever seeds we can into the consciousness of our loved ones that it may take root in their nous, even after we leave this world.
It just occurred to me though, Father, can the same be said for those in the foretaste of heaven or hell, before the final judgement? If I remember correctly, do not the departed "feel" or experience our prayers at memorials? Is it possible while being in the foretaste, can there be feelings or concern for loved ones left behind? I guess not.
God help me I ask for forgiveness everyday. People say our soul is the size of a broad bean and it sits inside our head in the left hand side. How does it join our spirit does this happen after the 40 days. Do we go to heaven and see our family or we don’t. Are we just part of the billions of spirits in the heavens and we don’t know anything. We don’t see our family or friends. Will this happen when Jesus returns which could be another 5000 years or never. I say this as God says 1000 years to Him is one day.
❤️🔥
aravona = engagement father Peter 😁
It happens to me all the time, don't worry 😆
Father, forgive me, but this answer doesn't seem at all to be how the Saints (that I've read so far) or the Scriptures describe it?
If we are in Heaven as we are promised by Christ and the Saints (as far as I have read, been taught, and understand with my limited study) we will be in a physically different place than Hell. Yes, Heaven can come to us here on Earth, but we are very much in a different place that has been set apart from God's presence since the fall. But Hell appears to be a place God will NEVER visit, he made it such. We are only allowed permanent time in His presence by Christ's Atonement, where we have communion with God again. Sin simply can't be directly in God's presence.
It seems to me that your answer states that people who don't believe here in this life, won't want to believe in the next, so they are in their own Hell? But that seems to not make sense to me, because if all knees will bow, wouldn't they believe? And who wouldnt admit they were wrong in the midst of that Light? We know that many mansions have indeed been set for us, but that is for those in Heaven.
There is a lot to unpack here, so if I'm misunderstanding, (or if I'm just wrong) please explain.
(There are many details I have left out such as the Resurrection, judgement, Satan's defeat, etc. Just trying to make this question shortish.)
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. - Pslam 139.
Look at an icon of the Last Judgement, you have both the river of fire and the stream of light flowing from Christ. It's the same uncreated energy of God.
@Paisios the Old Testament utilizes the word "Sheol" as a place of sleeping. Not the Hell that Christ and St. Paul describes. Even if we do utilize the word "Hell", Revelations states that death, Hell (sleep), and Satan and unbelievers will go away from God into the lake of fire. Also, an example;
Matthew 25:41-46.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
And 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9;
"In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,"
This tells me that God is the one who redeems AND punishes. This is true, like the Icon. However, what Father seems to describe is something far less serious. The Fire of God's Light is all consuming upon the unrighteous who rebuked Christ. They are not simply saying 'no' to God. They are in righteous punishment forever, declared by God at the judgment, and separated from those in Paradise.
@@MajorMustang1117 this is a Protestant view of eternal punishment. God doesn't will anyone to be placed into Hell, that would be a really horrible and evil God. This idea was condemned as early as the Council of Orange.
@@paisios2541 I am not quoting Protestants. I am quoting Christ, St. Paul, and St. John.
We know God doesn't "will" anybody to Hell, but we can choose it on our own.
@@MajorMustang1117 you're interpreting them. The Bible doesn't speak for itself. It is only infallible when interpreted by the Church.
Your view is a will to punishment and damnation, is it not? We commit sins, don't repent, and then God wills to send us to hell as righteous punishment?
So are you saying that heaven and hell are the same place? It's just a matter of how one experiences it ? ( that's what I understand orthodoxy teaches).
Hell is Gehenna, the lake of fire, not Hades.
@silversurfer2703 Hello. What you are referring to is what St.Gregory of Nyssa taught and what is mistaken to be apokastasis (universal salvation) but it is not. He taught that the uncreated energiess of God will be perceived in a different way in eternity by the rightheous ones and the unrepented sinners. That is what the Church has not accepted from St.Gregory but what unfortunately the modernistic theology starting from the 20th century, is trying to impose on the Orthodox Church as if it is the true teaching of the Church. The acceptance of that teaching is rooted in the rejection that the Gehenna is created which is turn derives from the rejection of God's punitive justice as a supposedly later western legalistic and scholastic innovation.
The Gehenna is created (Matthew 25:41). Also, for example St. Hilary of Poitiers (ca. 300-368) says:,,Thus there will be given no rest to the pagans nor will the onset of death bring the peace they desire. Instead, their bodies are destined to suffer eternally because their punishment of eternal fire will be physical. What they endure, along with everything else destined for eternity, will have no end. If pagans are given a body destined for eternity in order to suffer the fire of judgment, how great is the impiety of those saints who doubt the glory of eternity since eternal punishment is certain for sinners!'' (On Matthew 5.12).
The unrepentant sinners go in the unquenchable fire lit for the demons because of their own choice. That does not mean that God only allows for them to go there without Him declaring a verdict that they should go there. God is the One Who declares the verdict at the Last Judgment. Yet the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed (381) says that He will judge:,,from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead;''.
St.Cyril of Jerusalem’s (313-386) Cathehetical lectures are dated to c.350 CE. St.Cyril writes in his Cathehetical lecture 18 - On the Words, And in One Holy Catholic Church, and in the Resurrection of the Flesh, and the Life Everlasting.
4. But further, attend, I pray, to the very principle of justice, and come to your own case. You have different sorts of servants: and some are good and some bad; you honour therefore the good, and smitest the bad. And if you are a judge, to the good you award praise, and to the transgressors, punishment. Is then justice observed by you a mortal man; and with God, the ever changeless King of all, is there no retributive justice? Nay, to deny it is impious. For consider what I say. Many murderers have died in their beds unpunished; where then is the righteousness of God? Yea, oft times a murderer guilty of fifty murders is beheaded once; where then shall he suffer punishment for the forty and nine? Unless there is a judgment and a retribution after this world, you charge God with unrighteousness.
Marvel not, however, because of the delay of the judgment; no combatant is crowned or disgraced, till the contest is over; and no president of the games ever crowns men while yet striving, but he waits till all the combatants are finished, that then deciding between them he may dispense the prizes and the chaplets. Even thus God also, so long as the strife in this world lasts, succours the just but partially, but afterwards He renders to them their rewards fully.“
As for hades and paradise where teh souls are after death and before the final resurrection, the Encyclical of the Local Council of Constantinople, 1722 says clearly that paradise and hell are places, i.e. they are created:
"We the godly, following the truth and turning away from such innovations, confess and accept two places for the souls of the dead, paradise and hell,for the righteous and sinners, as the holy Scriptures teach us. We do not accept a third place, a purgatory, by any means, since neither Scripture nor the holy Fathers have taught us any such thing. However, we believe that these two places have many abodes.
...None of the teachers of the Church have handed down or taught such a purgatory, but they all speak of one single place of punishment, Hades, just as they teach about one luminous and bright place, Paradise. But both places also have different abodes as we said : and since the souls of the holy and righteous go indisputably to Paradise and those of the sinners go to hell , of whom the profane and those who have sinned unforgivably are punished forever and those who have offended forgivably and moderately hope to gain freedom through the unspeakable Mercy of God . For on behalf of such souls, that is of the moderately and forgivably sinful, there are in the Church prayers, supplications. Liturgies, as well as memorial services and almsgiving, that those souls may receive the favour and comfort. Thus when the Church prays for the souls of those who are lying asleep, we hope that there will be comfort for them from God, but not through fire and purgatory, but through Divine Love for mankind, whereby the infinite goodness of God is seen."
(As found in "Life After Death" by Met. Hierotheos of Nafpkatos, pg. 160-162,further referenced from with note 23 pg. 161: John Romanides: Texts of Dogmatic and Symbolic Theology, ed. Pournaras, Thessaloniki 1982, p. 574-576).
About the modernistic rejection of God's punitive and retributive justice. The New Martyr Father Daniel Sysoev (1974-2009) says in his book ,,Will the unbaptized be saved'' which I think is not translated in English, in the Chapter ,,Is God really just''?, that that the acceptance that God's punitive justice contradicts His love and the rejection that God is arbitrary and punishes - both here on earth and at the Last Judgment, resembles Marcionism, deism and even atheism. According to Father Daniel, such a view deprives God of His omnipotence. And Father Daniel quotes St.Irenaeus of Lyons regarding Marcionism as an argument that God's punitive justice does not contradict His love.
St. Irenaeus of Lyon says the following about Marcionism in ,,Against Heresies'', Book III, Chapter 25:
… 2. Again, that they might remove the rebuking and judicial power from the Father, reckoning that as unworthy of God, and thinking that they had found out a God both without anger and [merely] good, they have alleged that one [God] judges, but that another saves, unconsciously taking away the intelligence and justice of both deities. For if the judicial one is not also good, to bestow favours upon the deserving, and to direct reproofs against those requiring them, he will appear neither a just nor a wise judge. On the other hand, the good God, if he is merely good, and not one who tests those upon whom he shall send his goodness, will be out of the range of justice and goodness; and his goodness will seem imperfect, as not saving all; [for it should do so,] if it be not accompanied with judgment.
3. Marcion, therefore, himself, by dividing God into two, maintaining one to be good and the other judicial, does in fact, on both sides, put an end to deity. For he that is the judicial one, if he be not good, is not God, because he from whom goodness is absent is no God at all; and again, he who is good, if he has no judicial power, suffers the same [loss] as the former, by being deprived of his character of deity. And how can they call the Father of all wise, if they do not assign to Him a judicial faculty? For if He is wise, He is also one who tests [others]; but the judicial power belongs to him who tests, and justice follows the judicial faculty, that it may reach a just conclusion; justice calls forth judgment, and judgment, when it is executed with justice, will pass on to wisdom. Therefore the Father will excel in wisdom all human and angelic wisdom, because He is Lord, and Judge, and the Just One, and Ruler over all. For He is good, and merciful, and patient, and saves whom He ought: nor does goodness desert Him in the exercise of justice, nor is His wisdom lessened; for He saves those whom He should save, and judges those worthy of judgment. Neither does He show Himself unmercifully just; for His goodness, no doubt, goes on before, and takes precedency.‘‘
It must be added that marcinonism is clearly pointed as a hersy on an ecumenical level, in Canon 95 of the Ecumenical Council of Trullo, 692 which says:,,...And the Manicheans, and Valentinians and Marcionites and all of similar heresies must give certificates and anathematize each his own heresy, and also Nestorius, Eutyches, Dioscorus, Severus, and the other chiefs of such heresies, and those who think with them, and all the aforesaid heresies; and so they become partakers of the Holy Communion.''
Yes
So you say we wont know. Which of the Holy Fathers taught you this?
We won't know... what?
What did you hear Father saying exactly... ?
@@OrthodoxEthos he says we won't be aware of their state so we won't suffer, what did you hear?
That was a non-answer. So you guys actually reject the concept of hell or eternal conscience torment?
It was an answer. Hell is Gehenna, the lake of fire after the Resurrection and final judgment, not Hades where souls go now. Define eternal conscious (I think that's what you meant) torment, please.
5 minutes of a non answer
An answer WAS given... you didn't like it.. you want it explained out.. not possible... it is a mystery.
@@OrthodoxEthos You reply with another non answer lmao
The answer you give is "there is no answer, no explanation"
That isn't what the church fathers taught
@@itsmyytaccount8498enlighten us all then !
@@itsmyytaccount8498 Which Fathers/answers did you have in mind?
@@lornadoone8887 It would take an entire book to properly answer this! lmao
the church fathers were obviously numerous and wrote diversly in their scriptural interpretations. Universalist like Gregory of Nysa thought all souls would eventually be united with God; whilst earlier thinkers like Irenaus of Gaul thought that souls would suffer in Hell for all eternity. And then everything in between: the subject is MASSIVE!
The church fathers read, prayed and thought deeply about this subject.
I don't recall ever reading an answer like the one given here in this video: "It's a mystery! Don't bother even trying to understand!"
It's such a poor answer.
The church fathers wrote so extensively about this subject and it's worth reading into.
Nice try weaseling out of that one.... 🙄
This is interesting. I was having a conversation with Abbot Damascene during my recent pilgrimage to Platina and he said Hell is a place. There are a few Saints who said Hell is not a place, but how we experience the river of fire that flows from the throne of God (Daniel 7:10), which is the river of God's Grace (Abbot Tryphon reiterates this view in one of his blog posts, which you also reiterate here).
I'm not a mother, but I asked this exact question of Abbot Damascene when he gave me the explanation above.