Thanks for sharing your efforts. I'm currently trying to rescue one of those pumps and your notes really help, especially with regard to the new bearing.
I have the same type of pump where a piece of the ball retainer ring came off. It caused a lot of friction and burnt oil, but after getting it out the pump happily screams it's way to full speed and works fine. Turbo's are surprisingly resilient but I'm also sure my chances of a crash are a lot bigger now.
Thank you for this information! Would you mind me ask that how are you able to pull off the metal mesh protecting the rotor blades? I have absolutely no idea how to pull this off as it looks to be fragile. Thanks!
I haven't tested the ultimate pressure yet, but I don't think it will suffer, since all the stages are still there. I do have another ISO200 pump with 3 *missing* stages though...
@@Spirit532 Ouch, that's rough. At the very least pump-down time will likely suffer quite a bit! Either way it's great to see there is hope for even the most knackered turbos!
@@chromatogiraffery3104 It's likely that this pump did suffer a little bit of pumping speed penalty, but I can't imagine it's more than low-double-digit l/s, since it's only two blades missing. The one with 3 missing stages is more likely going to be a fun "self-destruction caught on camera" video rather than "incredible repair".
Just been reading your site - funnily enough, I got a Leybold Turbovac 150 years ago, with busted bearings, and it too used that same weird size! 8x22 diameters, but that 10.3 or so thickness. I suspect it's an "up yours" to anyone trying to repair these things 😂😂
Yup, it's specifically designed as a screw-you bearing by Barden. Even the bearing races are compatible with regular 708 bearings, so when they feed you the "mechanical stability" spiel, you know it's fake too.
I'm not sure what the root cause for the failure was, since I got the pump in that state. Fatigue is a good candidate. I went with a Chinese precision ABEC P7 608 bearing supposedly "rated" for 135krpm. Email me for the supplier, I'd like to avoid advertising just in case.
3:46 Turbopump bearing oils used have a much better vapor pressure because when the pump is turned off the vacuum from the top can migrate down and then the oil will gas like crazy and migrate up in the chamber which you never want and thus a much better oil is used then the one you mention.
You never just turn the pump off. If you want to stop pumping, you start a slow vent or nitrogen purge immediately to slow it down and keep foreline backstreaming to a minimum. If your process requires extra cleanliness, you gate the pump first. Better oil is obviously better, but it would've cost me over $100 just in that.
@@Spirit532 When using potentially dangerous turbopumps you use the best no matter the cost, that is common practice, and the real oil for these are not that exepensive since you can get them in small amounts. If I would have changed the oil in one of our turbopumps to the one you mention, since it was cheaper, I would have been fired right away.
@@Spirit532 You never use an oil in a vacuum system that doesn't have close to or better vapor pressure then the chamber at max vacuum to prevent all eventualities. If done wrong with purge gas that could be sucked back into the chamber through the bearing. Sure as a hobbyist do what you want sort of speak but it is not the practice how its really done in the industry. Just saying this so other ppl don't think they could put any oil in there that is close enough. And btw there is real turbopump oil for $50 in a bottle that would last for like 20 turbopumps, bought that some time back but don't remember where.
@@dtiydr If that were the case, you really need to talk to a bunch of turbo manufacturers, since a lot of them use oil that is around the 5e-6Pa mark, and I'm quite certain turbos go *way* lower than that in normal applications. Certainly beyond the ultimate spec on pretty much all pumps! Purge gas that can enter the chamber never touches the bearing. Especially on this pump, because purge is vented pretty much into the interstage area, around the holweck. And on top of that you can(/should) operate the turbo with purge even at full speed when you're pumping aggressive gases(e.g. semicon industry) that could eat the bearings and motor. Buying a $50 bottle of oil(with $50 in shipping because I'm not in the US and liquids suck to ship) would pretty much *double* the cost of this repair. Oh, and for the record, in "common practice" or "the industry" this pump would've been scrapped shortly after Edwards says "nope too costly to repair". At which point it would end up on eBay. Where I would buy it.
@@Spirit532 This repair would never have been approved where I work and I would never do it anyway. And 5e-6 is not rough vacuum like pretty much the oil you mention that is for vanepumps.
A supplier in China. It's a standard 708 P4 bearing with a rating of 135krpm, ceramic balls. You can get any other ceramic 708, as long as it's rated for oil lubrication and >60krpm sustained(not limiting). See the project page.
@@biswajitroy1560 You'll need to buy a controller that's a direct replacement. Look for the model(EXDC80 or EXDC160) and the voltage listed on the sticker. The rest is identical.
Mmmmh, I'm looking into buying a second hand turbo pump. An Agilent Twistor 304FS. Starting price 100 USD. Altough I know the starting price is excellent but I'm not sure if I will be able to repair the 2 bent rotorblades as the discription says. Anyone?
Agilent controllers are nigh on impossible to find. There's a pile of EXT255H on eBay right now for $90, go get a few of those. All need this exact repair(bearing replacement) minus the rotor torture.
@@Spirit532 Thanks for the reply. What comes between a controller and the power source? It seems al controllers have a 15 pin connector which I don't know where to put. I also found a ADIXEN ATP 1600 M with controller without a 15 pin connector but just a power inlet. Is this a plug and play option?
@@veandreas Probably plug and play. The Edwards controllers come in 9 and 15 pin varieties, both are power+start/stop+speed out, pretty much plug and play. Beware that some turbos are 76V and some are 24, the controllers don't intermix.
@@Spirit532 Any recommendation for a power supply to use for those 70-85 VDC versions? Homemade linear one? DC-DC converter from a more readily available e.g. 48VDC supply? One of those Aliexpress 80VDC switching supplies that some people say to stay away from?
@@perspectivex Two Meanwell 36V supplies in series. Their outputs are isolated, so you can just do that. Both need to be rated at the full current, so double the power, but that's a small compromise since it ends up much cheaper.
You definitely shouldn't operate turbos free-standing in normal conditions, but there's very little chance a pump of this construction could completely seize without warning, on a brand new bearing, at no load. And the relative energy is fairly small. It would jump, sure, but it wouldn't do much besides that. I've seen what happens when a big(ISO250) pump crashes, and it's not pretty, but not as catastrophic as people make it out to be.
You're right, but "eventually" would probably be on the order of a couple thousand more hours, which I'm fine with. It's not going to run 24/7 in a mass spec, just a few hours here and there. And when it dies, I can amputate a few more blades and put a new pair of bearings in ;)
Thanks for sharing your efforts. I'm currently trying to rescue one of those pumps and your notes really help, especially with regard to the new bearing.
Glad to help! Good luck with your repair.
You can email me directly if you have other questions.
Very cool! I also dig the KF16 replacement.
Thanks!
@@Spirit532 can one of those turbo molecular vacuum pumps do as a shop vac
@@xa-xii4865 No. Why would you even think that?
@@xa-xii4865 Lol. It would be like trying to use a jet engine to dredge the ocean floor.
Wow, that engineering behind those pumps is impressive, those tight tolerances and you also have to consider the expanding metall at those high rpms.
I'm an engineer and: F#&k yeah! I was cheering you on the whole way!
That was funny! 😊 Good luck with the pump
Спасибо, с нетерпением ждём следующих видео про теслу :)
I have the same type of pump where a piece of the ball retainer ring came off. It caused a lot of friction and burnt oil, but after getting it out the pump happily screams it's way to full speed and works fine. Turbo's are surprisingly resilient but I'm also sure my chances of a crash are a lot bigger now.
This is what happened to this pump. Replace the bearing before it seizes and shreds it.
Thank you, it was very cool! There are many myths about the delicacy of turbomolecular pumps and special (miraculous) bearings for them.
To be fair, this is only a 60krpm turbo. At 90k things become way more complicated.
Very impressive work! What was the price of the pump?
I don't remember, but the seller gave me a partial refund after I sent him the pictures. With buying the bearings, I think it was under $200 total.
With the turbo driver ? WOw ~That 's a good deal !
@@水巷-i4l Yup, that's why I jumped on the deal, the seller threw the driver in, and it was the non-weird 24V model.
Thank you for this information! Would you mind me ask that how are you able to pull off the metal mesh protecting the rotor blades? I have absolutely no idea how to pull this off as it looks to be fragile. Thanks!
Hooked it in several places with a wire and pulled. It's just a press fit.
That is an incredible rescue! What pressure can you get it down to?
I haven't tested the ultimate pressure yet, but I don't think it will suffer, since all the stages are still there.
I do have another ISO200 pump with 3 *missing* stages though...
@@Spirit532 Ouch, that's rough. At the very least pump-down time will likely suffer quite a bit! Either way it's great to see there is hope for even the most knackered turbos!
@@chromatogiraffery3104 It's likely that this pump did suffer a little bit of pumping speed penalty, but I can't imagine it's more than low-double-digit l/s, since it's only two blades missing.
The one with 3 missing stages is more likely going to be a fun "self-destruction caught on camera" video rather than "incredible repair".
Just been reading your site - funnily enough, I got a Leybold Turbovac 150 years ago, with busted bearings, and it too used that same weird size! 8x22 diameters, but that 10.3 or so thickness. I suspect it's an "up yours" to anyone trying to repair these things 😂😂
Yup, it's specifically designed as a screw-you bearing by Barden. Even the bearing races are compatible with regular 708 bearings, so when they feed you the "mechanical stability" spiel, you know it's fake too.
Great job you did there. I assume the missing blade was due to fatigue?
What type of bearing did you replace it with? Who is the supplier please?
I'm not sure what the root cause for the failure was, since I got the pump in that state. Fatigue is a good candidate.
I went with a Chinese precision ABEC P7 608 bearing supposedly "rated" for 135krpm. Email me for the supplier, I'd like to avoid advertising just in case.
"Felt oil wick"
Love it!
3:46 Turbopump bearing oils used have a much better vapor pressure because when the pump is turned off the vacuum from the top can migrate down and then the oil will gas like crazy and migrate up in the chamber which you never want and thus a much better oil is used then the one you mention.
You never just turn the pump off. If you want to stop pumping, you start a slow vent or nitrogen purge immediately to slow it down and keep foreline backstreaming to a minimum. If your process requires extra cleanliness, you gate the pump first.
Better oil is obviously better, but it would've cost me over $100 just in that.
@@Spirit532 When using potentially dangerous turbopumps you use the best no matter the cost, that is common practice, and the real oil for these are not that exepensive since you can get them in small amounts. If I would have changed the oil in one of our turbopumps to the one you mention, since it was cheaper, I would have been fired right away.
@@Spirit532 You never use an oil in a vacuum system that doesn't have close to or better vapor pressure then the chamber at max vacuum to prevent all eventualities. If done wrong with purge gas that could be sucked back into the chamber through the bearing.
Sure as a hobbyist do what you want sort of speak but it is not the practice how its really done in the industry. Just saying this so other ppl don't think they could put any oil in there that is close enough. And btw there is real turbopump oil for $50 in a bottle that would last for like 20 turbopumps, bought that some time back but don't remember where.
@@dtiydr If that were the case, you really need to talk to a bunch of turbo manufacturers, since a lot of them use oil that is around the 5e-6Pa mark, and I'm quite certain turbos go *way* lower than that in normal applications. Certainly beyond the ultimate spec on pretty much all pumps!
Purge gas that can enter the chamber never touches the bearing. Especially on this pump, because purge is vented pretty much into the interstage area, around the holweck.
And on top of that you can(/should) operate the turbo with purge even at full speed when you're pumping aggressive gases(e.g. semicon industry) that could eat the bearings and motor.
Buying a $50 bottle of oil(with $50 in shipping because I'm not in the US and liquids suck to ship) would pretty much *double* the cost of this repair.
Oh, and for the record, in "common practice" or "the industry" this pump would've been scrapped shortly after Edwards says "nope too costly to repair".
At which point it would end up on eBay. Where I would buy it.
@@Spirit532 This repair would never have been approved where I work and I would never do it anyway.
And 5e-6 is not rough vacuum like pretty much the oil you mention that is for vanepumps.
Where did you get the bearings from?
A supplier in China. It's a standard 708 P4 bearing with a rating of 135krpm, ceramic balls. You can get any other ceramic 708, as long as it's rated for oil lubrication and >60krpm sustained(not limiting). See the project page.
@@Spirit532 I read the project page, just hoping for a link to a reliable supplier.
@@JustinAlexanderBell Email me, I'll give you the contact where I bought from.
Hey, have you any information form where can we get the adapter fixed? The pump is ok but the external electronic component went down.
That's the controller/motor drive. They're a pain to fix, but cheap on eBay.
@@Spirit532 o great thanks a ton could you provide me with any link where I can get that....
@@biswajitroy1560 You'll need to buy a controller that's a direct replacement. Look for the model(EXDC80 or EXDC160) and the voltage listed on the sticker. The rest is identical.
Mmmmh, I'm looking into buying a second hand turbo pump. An Agilent Twistor 304FS. Starting price 100 USD. Altough I know the starting price is excellent but I'm not sure if I will be able to repair the 2 bent rotorblades as the discription says. Anyone?
Agilent controllers are nigh on impossible to find. There's a pile of EXT255H on eBay right now for $90, go get a few of those. All need this exact repair(bearing replacement) minus the rotor torture.
@@Spirit532 Thanks for the reply. What comes between a controller and the power source? It seems al controllers have a 15 pin connector which I don't know where to put. I also found a ADIXEN ATP 1600 M with controller without a 15 pin connector but just a power inlet. Is this a plug and play option?
@@veandreas Probably plug and play. The Edwards controllers come in 9 and 15 pin varieties, both are power+start/stop+speed out, pretty much plug and play. Beware that some turbos are 76V and some are 24, the controllers don't intermix.
@@Spirit532 Any recommendation for a power supply to use for those 70-85 VDC versions? Homemade linear one? DC-DC converter from a more readily available e.g. 48VDC supply? One of those Aliexpress 80VDC switching supplies that some people say to stay away from?
@@perspectivex Two Meanwell 36V supplies in series. Their outputs are isolated, so you can just do that. Both need to be rated at the full current, so double the power, but that's a small compromise since it ends up much cheaper.
Годнота)
would not want to operate this pump without proper fixing it to something. If it suddenly seizes it could wander around the table quite violently.
You definitely shouldn't operate turbos free-standing in normal conditions, but there's very little chance a pump of this construction could completely seize without warning, on a brand new bearing, at no load. And the relative energy is fairly small. It would jump, sure, but it wouldn't do much besides that. I've seen what happens when a big(ISO250) pump crashes, and it's not pretty, but not as catastrophic as people make it out to be.
The pump will eventually eat itself but you should get some good use out of it before then.
You're right, but "eventually" would probably be on the order of a couple thousand more hours, which I'm fine with. It's not going to run 24/7 in a mass spec, just a few hours here and there.
And when it dies, I can amputate a few more blades and put a new pair of bearings in ;)
2:45 Good way to create a dent in the bearing races, do NOT do it like that!
What dent, in which bearing races? The rotor wasn't secured to anything, it hit the housing.
@@Spirit532 Didn't sounded like it.
Im here coz of the Styropyro.