This is a conversation I've had often with friends. You've described the path of misguided ownership beautifully. It's an inherently addictive path to gather with 'like' humans and then return to your other life wanting more. I kind of see it as spiritual resume building without any real employment.
This video talk is exactly what I need. I had been pressured for a decade now to join retreats, kind of annual function. They are not cheap and sad to say, I cannot afford to join. Also, I don't enjoy lots of company and socializing. Lots of talk about other purchases too.....now I know the term...spiritual materialism. I had been standing my ground. Since I discovered you, lots of my doubts had been cleared and I thank you very dearly... Your video talks is my spiritual library... Tqtq again...🌻
Wow, you really hit the nail on the head with something that was bothering me about my spiritual life that I couldn't put my finger on until you gave it a name. I've been trying to avoid it, but I've come to realize that I like to take on beliefs for the sake of taking on beliefs. In the same way it might feel comforting for me to walk into my room and see my collection of Sega Saturn games, it's somehow comforting in the same way to look at my mental room in my mind, full of beliefs about the world. I think that's why I fall off my spiritual practice sometimes, because I realize I'm taking on beliefs I don't really, truly believe and then I try to stop that by going cold turkey, but then I end up missing my spiritual practice and come back around.
Fascinating, Doug. You do pick interesting topics. Each time you spoke of these attachments the word 'ego' came to mind. They seem to arise from finding a sense of self important. I'm not implying that they are based on arrogance, they could equally be part of self-reassurance. It might be helpful to remember the meaning of Maya and of Anatta. We have grown up in a world where we are taught to aim for goals. It is apparent, when friends want to talk about 'spiritual' concepts, that it is easier for them to strive to understand intellectually than to let go and experience. The Raft Sutra is a lovely example of how, even spiritual or religious beliefs, are only a vehicle. The adventure is being open to change.
Thanks for the note, martynsnan. I think you’re right about ego being involved. It’s so normal for it to happen that way, unfortunately! Happens to all of us from time to time.
Thank you Doug for this. I feel that the mind of materialism is fundamental to me and through my whole life I have developed from birth to now in a materialistic culture. Marinated in the juicy sauce of materialism. So I find this idea of spiritual materialism so very helpful as even my motivation to get into Buddhism was/is driven by a wish to be better in some way. Noticing this tendency is my path now. Recently read articles about communal narcissism which really underline for me the pervasiveness of materialistic ego building ways of thinking about meditation.
I recognize this in myself, and I spend energy regularly checking myself with spiritual materialism. Towards the end you talk about how it's not for outside of yourself; I understand not to judge others for it, it's a very human thing, but I have a friend that is very very deeply consumed by their spiritual materialism, to dangerous points. It is causing suffering to them and people around them, and I was wondering how to help? Or if I even should... I know people need to figure these things out on their own for it to be truly sacred to them. Thank you for this video
Also I never even knew there were retreats people can go on to learn these kinds of topics. I'm very alone in my spiritual study, as in the people I see through my daily life do not believe what I believe. Where do I sign up? Just to be around like-minded souls
Well you can find out about retreats through major Buddhist centers, it depends where you are and what is close to you. (Or to where you are willing to travel). But with Coronavirus now most retreats are either virtual or on hold for now. As for your friend, it's hard to say without knowing them personally. If you feel it would help then talk with them about spiritual materialism. But if you don't think it would help, then focus on your own practice instead and maybe in time a better solution will come to mind.
I had a hard time finding this video through your channel playlist pages for some reason, I only saw it because RUclips recommended it. I thought I had seen all your old ones. FYI. Great video, I have seen this phenomenon in my own life and friends' lives
Doug I don't know if you're aware but this channel almost consists of every crucial aspect of the Buddhist Path or Buddhadharma as you might say, I've been reading about Buddhism, Buddha, Awakening, Practice for 5-6 months, and I can say that everything I did read in various places(I read a lot) are included in so clear and precise topics in this channel, and it doesn't have the woo-woo or unfamiliar, strange Eastern vibes, so this perspective of yours is what is needed in the West to show what Buddhadharma really is in a familiar manner. Thank you for your great work. Wish people would lean onto this stuff instead of New Age easy way out stuff like Eckhart Tolle and etc.
Doug, this is the idea/term I have been looking for a year. Today I came across Chögyam Trungpa, one of his lecture, and then your lecture. I am yet to read the book. The way the spirituality is approached by many (if not all - perhaps some) of us, it erases any distinction between Spiritualism and Materialism. From my early childhood, I failed to find any difference between Spiritualism and Materialism. I see them as two branches of the same tree. A year ago, I have asked a group of spiritual persons "What is the difference between Spiritualism and Materialism? " All i was given "How inferior a life could be if driven by Materialism, and sometimes how important it is to have spiritual attainment and enlightenment." Perhaps their responses were driven by spiritual materialism. But that didn't answer my original question. Can you please tell me how Spiritualism and Materialism are or could ever be different ?
Thanks for the question R nath, it's a huge question so I might do a video on it someday. The basic idea is that "spirituality" in the sense here is basically an ethical program of self-betterment. Materialism is a program of gaining wealth.
I am struggling with this concept, too. I am learning about Buddhism and practicing secular Buddhist practices. I feel encouraged about my progress, but I also know it will take a long time to reach "enlightenment." It's my understanding that is not necessarily how the Buddha intends the process to work. So for example, I am thinking about getting a Dharma wheel tattoo on my back. I've always been interested in the idea of getting a tattoo, but could never figure out what. I had an "epiphany" the other day about getting a Dharma wheel tattoo. I think it would be cool, as Buddhism means a lot to me. However, I am having second thoughts after this video. I wouldn't have the tattoo to say "I'm on the right path more than you" but more of an expression of what I am practicing. But isn't that a form of spiritual materialism? I'm putting this symbol, or idea, on my body to say I "own this"? What do you all think?
I have a question. Does a person not, at a certain point on his/her path, become more adept at being present? Therefore having more ownership of his being, compared to before where one was guided more by unconscious beliefs etc? Lies the difference in identifying? Because wherever we may fall on the spectrum of life, here we are living life through this vehicle. There is agency once the ownership is relinquished perhaps? Idk if this is just somantics
I think it depends on the person and the practice. But yes, I think we can in general become more aware of the present and adept with working in the present, leaving aside mental chatter, at least for a time.
Well said. a family member has on several occasions told me they weee saved and know where they are going after death. This seemed presumptuous to me and kind of cringe inducing but now I see spiritual materialism in it. It’s as if they have some thing that iron others don’t have, but isn’t it cruel to hold that over other people ?
Trungpa really splits Buddhism down the middle for me. On the one hand he was an alcoholic chain-smoking cult leader who did exorbitant amounts of cocaine and had seven wives ... On the other hand he had a certain degree of realization and gave some crystal clear instructions. Very strange character.
Pseudo spiritualists have been around since forever. You are a social animal, therefore you function in a dominance hierarchy. All I've studied about buddhism, stoicism and philosophy in general is that the dominance hierarchy is the problem. It's what drives interhuman conflict and most of the practices in spiritual paths such as buddhism are about magnifying empathic tendencies en liberating the individual from base desires revolving around establishing social dominance. The reason why a lot of people do whatever discipline "just for show" is that they're using it as a vehicle to further their social status. It's a deep rooted instinct that even people who believe they've transcended it haven't even begun to transcend it. We learn a lot via mimicking so we mimick attitudes and postures regarding certain roles in certain schools or disciplines but all you see and know is dominance hierarchy. We "fake it to make it" so to speak because your brain prefers energy efficient behaviour. Why put time and energy into really integrating a discipline or skill when it's not about how good you are but about how good people believe you are. Social behaviour revolves a lot about who's the best deceiver. Some of us with stronger social tendencies can actually move in regard to social union, it's not that there's no real care for the common good or tribe. It's just that there's evolutionary variation among the "best" social strategies to employ. And though a lot of people are prosocial in a pragmatic sense, prosocial isn't synonimous with empathy. So to truly realize the social game on a deep emotional level is very difficult for most people. Even engaging in spiritual practices then becomes something for them to compete in, something that's fashionable.
the paradox of such dominance hierarchies is the individuals sense of self-worth, self-esteem is dependent upon the perceived opinions of others. in that sense, there is an assumption that the opinions of others of oneself are to be more highly valued than ones own estimations of ones worth. in so doing, others are valued above oneself, and they must be pleased, whether by genuine accomplishments or fakes. true freedom is to be free of this dependence on the opinions of others. something very difficult to attain, especially considering we must make a living in society. such freedom would likely appear to others as a retreat from society, when it may be simply an abandonment of the game. spiritual figures from the past where reputed to go into the desert, or the forest or into the mountains to attain this freedom.
@@sawtoothiandi Such an interesting take on this. This whole thread makes so much sense. I am feeling conflicted at the moment because I feel called to lead and yet what does that even mean without falling in the traps of spiritual materialism? Do I just go off into the mountains and get away from society? Because most of the time, that feels like the best answer. Everything else seems like an ego trap. The only thing that seems remotely close to what I would want to experience in a society is people connected to Atman. But I ask myself how to connect to that throughout the day? It seems so challenging but I know people can do it. Those are the only people that I've met that are authentic, genuine, and functioning in the world. I feel like you dissected it so clearly about it stemming down to one's sense of self-worth and the value people put on how others may perceive them. We aren't taught to love ourselves, nor to value our self-worth and esteem regardless of what others think of us. If we were all connected to our Atman, we would be different with each other as people. I'm wondering if this is possible without complete isolation.. seems like that may be an assured path. Which makes sense when all of the answers always lie within our being.
Material advancement is exactly that, where as spiritual advancement is ultra abstract, and impossible to measure. We are material beings with a spiritual essence. We can not live without materiality, without food and shelter. We are spiritual materialists, every one of us. Eastern spiritualism is almost completely void of respect for the material, and it's obvious. What happens when the spiritual materialist controls his ego? Spiritual materialism turns into spiritual realism. I want to debate this with someone. I can not think of a higher calling than spiritual materialism, and I think I can explain it.
Well I think we're talking about different things here. "Spiritual materialism" isn't about physicality, it's rather about commodifying the spiritual and approaching spiritual practice as a kind of amassing of riches.
Me: I'm gonna try to watch all of Doug's videos by the end of the year! Collect all the knowledge! Doug: Don't do that - that's spiritual materialism. Us, watching the video, trying to attain all the spiritual knowledge: Oops. *Doug loses all his subscribers* ...Just kidding. Lol.
Spiritual materialism could also be this fixation that people have with kindness . Confusing idiot compassion with compassion , a pretentious facade about my being kind over somebody else who isn't .
This is a conversation I've had often with friends. You've described the path of misguided ownership beautifully. It's an inherently addictive path to gather with 'like' humans and then return to your other life wanting more. I kind of see it as spiritual resume building without any real employment.
Yes we have to be careful with this sort of thing.
This video talk is exactly what I need. I had been pressured for a decade now to join retreats, kind of annual function. They are not cheap and sad to say, I cannot afford to join.
Also, I don't enjoy lots of company and socializing. Lots of talk about other purchases too.....now I know the term...spiritual materialism. I had been standing my ground.
Since I discovered you, lots of my doubts had been cleared and I thank you very dearly...
Your video talks is my spiritual library...
Tqtq again...🌻
You're very welcome Pauline! Yes unfortunately there is a lot of spiritual materialism going about, and one should be aware of the pitfalls. 🙏
Wow, you really hit the nail on the head with something that was bothering me about my spiritual life that I couldn't put my finger on until you gave it a name. I've been trying to avoid it, but I've come to realize that I like to take on beliefs for the sake of taking on beliefs. In the same way it might feel comforting for me to walk into my room and see my collection of Sega Saturn games, it's somehow comforting in the same way to look at my mental room in my mind, full of beliefs about the world. I think that's why I fall off my spiritual practice sometimes, because I realize I'm taking on beliefs I don't really, truly believe and then I try to stop that by going cold turkey, but then I end up missing my spiritual practice and come back around.
Yes I think a lot of us tend to collect beliefs in just that way! Then we jealously guard them. It can be very tiring! 😄
Fascinating, Doug. You do pick interesting topics. Each time you spoke of these attachments the word 'ego' came to mind. They seem to arise from finding a sense of self important. I'm not implying that they are based on arrogance, they could equally be part of self-reassurance. It might be helpful to remember the meaning of Maya and of Anatta.
We have grown up in a world where we are taught to aim for goals. It is apparent, when friends want to talk about 'spiritual' concepts, that it is easier for them to strive to understand intellectually than to let go and experience. The Raft Sutra is a lovely example of how, even spiritual or religious beliefs, are only a vehicle. The adventure is being open to change.
Thanks for the note, martynsnan. I think you’re right about ego being involved. It’s so normal for it to happen that way, unfortunately! Happens to all of us from time to time.
Thank you Doug for this. I feel that the mind of materialism is fundamental to me and through my whole life I have developed from birth to now in a materialistic culture. Marinated in the juicy sauce of materialism. So I find this idea of spiritual materialism so very helpful as even my motivation to get into Buddhism was/is driven by a wish to be better in some way. Noticing this tendency is my path now. Recently read articles about communal narcissism which really underline for me the pervasiveness of materialistic ego building ways of thinking about meditation.
Yes it's so normal and natural for us to think this way. It's a real relief to get out of it though.
I recognize this in myself, and I spend energy regularly checking myself with spiritual materialism. Towards the end you talk about how it's not for outside of yourself; I understand not to judge others for it, it's a very human thing, but I have a friend that is very very deeply consumed by their spiritual materialism, to dangerous points. It is causing suffering to them and people around them, and I was wondering how to help? Or if I even should... I know people need to figure these things out on their own for it to be truly sacred to them.
Thank you for this video
Also I never even knew there were retreats people can go on to learn these kinds of topics. I'm very alone in my spiritual study, as in the people I see through my daily life do not believe what I believe. Where do I sign up? Just to be around like-minded souls
Well you can find out about retreats through major Buddhist centers, it depends where you are and what is close to you. (Or to where you are willing to travel). But with Coronavirus now most retreats are either virtual or on hold for now. As for your friend, it's hard to say without knowing them personally. If you feel it would help then talk with them about spiritual materialism. But if you don't think it would help, then focus on your own practice instead and maybe in time a better solution will come to mind.
I had a hard time finding this video through your channel playlist pages for some reason, I only saw it because RUclips recommended it. I thought I had seen all your old ones. FYI. Great video, I have seen this phenomenon in my own life and friends' lives
Yes, I don't think this one is in a playlist but it is important to keep in mind! Thanks Giantcrabz.
Doug I don't know if you're aware but this channel almost consists of every crucial aspect of the Buddhist Path or Buddhadharma as you might say, I've been reading about Buddhism, Buddha, Awakening, Practice for 5-6 months, and I can say that everything I did read in various places(I read a lot) are included in so clear and precise topics in this channel, and it doesn't have the woo-woo or unfamiliar, strange Eastern vibes, so this perspective of yours is what is needed in the West to show what Buddhadharma really is in a familiar manner. Thank you for your great work. Wish people would lean onto this stuff instead of New Age easy way out stuff like Eckhart Tolle and etc.
Thanks for the kind comment Mert, that’s kinda what I’m trying to achieve. 🙂
Doug, this is the idea/term I have been looking for a year. Today I came across Chögyam Trungpa, one of his lecture, and then your lecture. I am yet to read the book. The way the spirituality is approached by many (if not all - perhaps some) of us, it erases any distinction between Spiritualism and Materialism.
From my early childhood, I failed to find any difference between Spiritualism and Materialism. I see them as two branches of the same tree. A year ago, I have asked a group of spiritual persons "What is the difference between Spiritualism and Materialism? " All i was given "How inferior a life could be if driven by Materialism, and sometimes how important it is to have spiritual attainment and enlightenment." Perhaps their responses were driven by spiritual materialism. But that didn't answer my original question. Can you please tell me how Spiritualism and Materialism are or could ever be different ?
Thanks for the question R nath, it's a huge question so I might do a video on it someday. The basic idea is that "spirituality" in the sense here is basically an ethical program of self-betterment. Materialism is a program of gaining wealth.
Yeah, and this idea of unity between the Material and Ideal is explored in the Gita, in the Phenomenology of Spirit, and in the works of Karl Marx
I am struggling with this concept, too. I am learning about Buddhism and practicing secular Buddhist practices. I feel encouraged about my progress, but I also know it will take a long time to reach "enlightenment." It's my understanding that is not necessarily how the Buddha intends the process to work. So for example, I am thinking about getting a Dharma wheel tattoo on my back. I've always been interested in the idea of getting a tattoo, but could never figure out what. I had an "epiphany" the other day about getting a Dharma wheel tattoo. I think it would be cool, as Buddhism means a lot to me. However, I am having second thoughts after this video. I wouldn't have the tattoo to say "I'm on the right path more than you" but more of an expression of what I am practicing. But isn't that a form of spiritual materialism? I'm putting this symbol, or idea, on my body to say I "own this"? What do you all think?
I think it's a great place to continue your practice Jeremiah! Search into your intentions and see what you find.
@@DougsDharma Thank you, Doug! I will.
very helpful - thanks doug.
Glad it was helpful!
I have a question. Does a person not, at a certain point on his/her path, become more adept at being present? Therefore having more ownership of his being, compared to before where one was guided more by unconscious beliefs etc?
Lies the difference in identifying?
Because wherever we may fall on the spectrum of life, here we are living life through this vehicle.
There is agency once the ownership is relinquished perhaps?
Idk if this is just somantics
I think it depends on the person and the practice. But yes, I think we can in general become more aware of the present and adept with working in the present, leaving aside mental chatter, at least for a time.
@@DougsDharma so, where does ownership, or responsibility fall?
I've heard it once put like this: ego brings destiny, surrender offers choice
Well said.
a family member has on several occasions told me they weee saved and know where they are going after death. This seemed presumptuous to me and kind of cringe inducing but now I see spiritual materialism in it.
It’s as if they have some thing that iron others don’t have, but isn’t it cruel to hold that over other people ?
Yes, when ego gets involved it can be less than helpful.
Trungpa really splits Buddhism down the middle for me. On the one hand he was an alcoholic chain-smoking cult leader who did exorbitant amounts of cocaine and had seven wives ... On the other hand he had a certain degree of realization and gave some crystal clear instructions. Very strange character.
Yes, agreed. 🙏
I want to be a Guru when I grow up. Is a Guru better when there is no spiritual materialism?
😆🤔 Well I guess without spiritual materialism nobody will really *want* to be a guru.
Great video, really enjoyed it.
Thanks Leo!
Pseudo spiritualists have been around since forever. You are a social animal, therefore you function in a dominance hierarchy. All I've studied about buddhism, stoicism and philosophy in general is that the dominance hierarchy is the problem. It's what drives interhuman conflict and most of the practices in spiritual paths such as buddhism are about magnifying empathic tendencies en liberating the individual from base desires revolving around establishing social dominance. The reason why a lot of people do whatever discipline "just for show" is that they're using it as a vehicle to further their social status. It's a deep rooted instinct that even people who believe they've transcended it haven't even begun to transcend it. We learn a lot via mimicking so we mimick attitudes and postures regarding certain roles in certain schools or disciplines but all you see and know is dominance hierarchy. We "fake it to make it" so to speak because your brain prefers energy efficient behaviour. Why put time and energy into really integrating a discipline or skill when it's not about how good you are but about how good people believe you are. Social behaviour revolves a lot about who's the best deceiver. Some of us with stronger social tendencies can actually move in regard to social union, it's not that there's no real care for the common good or tribe. It's just that there's evolutionary variation among the "best" social strategies to employ. And though a lot of people are prosocial in a pragmatic sense, prosocial isn't synonimous with empathy. So to truly realize the social game on a deep emotional level is very difficult for most people. Even engaging in spiritual practices then becomes something for them to compete in, something that's fashionable.
Indeed so zero. It’s something we all have to watch out for, since we’re all prone to fall into it one way or another from time to time.
the paradox of such dominance hierarchies is the individuals sense of self-worth, self-esteem is dependent upon the perceived opinions of others. in that sense, there is an assumption that the opinions of others of oneself are to be more highly valued than ones own estimations of ones worth. in so doing, others are valued above oneself, and they must be pleased, whether by genuine accomplishments or fakes. true freedom is to be free of this dependence on the opinions of others. something very difficult to attain, especially considering we must make a living in society. such freedom would likely appear to others as a retreat from society, when it may be simply an abandonment of the game. spiritual figures from the past where reputed to go into the desert, or the forest or into the mountains to attain this freedom.
@@sawtoothiandi Such an interesting take on this. This whole thread makes so much sense. I am feeling conflicted at the moment because I feel called to lead and yet what does that even mean without falling in the traps of spiritual materialism? Do I just go off into the mountains and get away from society? Because most of the time, that feels like the best answer. Everything else seems like an ego trap. The only thing that seems remotely close to what I would want to experience in a society is people connected to Atman. But I ask myself how to connect to that throughout the day? It seems so challenging but I know people can do it. Those are the only people that I've met that are authentic, genuine, and functioning in the world. I feel like you dissected it so clearly about it stemming down to one's sense of self-worth and the value people put on how others may perceive them. We aren't taught to love ourselves, nor to value our self-worth and esteem regardless of what others think of us. If we were all connected to our Atman, we would be different with each other as people. I'm wondering if this is possible without complete isolation.. seems like that may be an assured path. Which makes sense when all of the answers always lie within our being.
Material advancement is exactly that, where as spiritual advancement is ultra abstract, and impossible to measure. We are material beings with a spiritual essence. We can not live without materiality, without food and shelter. We are spiritual materialists, every one of us. Eastern spiritualism is almost completely void of respect for the material, and it's obvious.
What happens when the spiritual materialist controls his ego? Spiritual materialism turns into spiritual realism.
I want to debate this with someone. I can not think of a higher calling than spiritual materialism, and I think I can explain it.
Well I think we're talking about different things here. "Spiritual materialism" isn't about physicality, it's rather about commodifying the spiritual and approaching spiritual practice as a kind of amassing of riches.
@@DougsDharma Ahh, I see, as an industry. Yes, I have a very different idea of how the term should be used.
Is spiritual materialism bad?
Well it's not really good. It can lead to clinging, possessiveness, and egoism.
Me: I'm gonna try to watch all of Doug's videos by the end of the year! Collect all the knowledge!
Doug: Don't do that - that's spiritual materialism.
Us, watching the video, trying to attain all the spiritual knowledge: Oops.
*Doug loses all his subscribers*
...Just kidding. Lol.
😄 Well so it isn't collecting knowledge, maybe just helping you on your journey? 😄
@@DougsDharma Of course. I was just being goofy. Haha.
Spiritual materialism could also be this fixation that people have with kindness . Confusing idiot compassion with compassion , a pretentious facade about my being kind over somebody else who isn't .