I found myself trying to love Gloomhaven over 10s of evenings with friends, but it just never clicked. I understood the mechanics and enjoyed them greatly, but the game always felt like an efficiency puzzle with a fantasy coat of paint when what I really wanted was a coop dungeon crawler.
That sounds very much like my experience. If I am playing a dungeoncrawler, I want it to feel like a rush of exciting adventure. Either a frantic brawl or a tense plunge into the darkness. Jaws feels very much like an optimisation game as you spin a dozen plates at once.
I agree that a fantasy adventure should be an escape from overhead and bookeeping, not an exercise in maximising efficiency. Thank you for articulating your thoughts so clearly.
Thanks for watching. I'm glad I was able to express my thoughts clearly. Not always easy when you can see why I game is good, and yet you still can't connect with it.
Very nicely done ABNB, you literally nailed it, I found myself finally understanding why it didn't win us over, or as you said, get us in its Jaws. Brilliant watch!
Thanks so much for sending the game in. I would have loved to have loved it, but I very much loved the chance to try it, and I really appreciate the gift.
I played the whole campaign with Hatchet and Red Guard. I have to say, that I agree 100% with your review. For me, playing solo, this game was more a chore than an enjoyable experience. It took me over 3 hours from opening the box to putting it away on the shelf again. To many things to keep track of and a pretty annoying way to level up. I can’t think of hi to restart the game from zero to play it again someday. And it is pretty much impossible to homebrew stuff. Maybe I should just sell it. I acknowledge the quality of the product, but it is not for me either.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. There really is a lot to keep track of, and I can't imagine playing it solo, and I play quite a lot of dungeoncrawlers solo.
I played two missions. I can see why people like it. It wasnt for me. So, I tossed the minis into my HeroQuest collection. Who wouldn't want a steam powered mech pilot npc for hire? This has been the ultimate fate of every other dungeon crawler Ive bought. I give the game a try, then cannibalize it when I realize Ill never play it because I'm some kind of hyper fixated mono-maniac. It's happened to four games so far. So far, I think Descent: Legends Of The Dark, is the greatest HeroQuest expansion Ive bought lol. Honestly, if you're a HeroQuest homebrewer, games like this are usually worth checking out. At best, you get another game to play, at worst you get a bunch of new components. New quests, new decks to introduce, new minis, new furniture.
I always remember that old saying "everything is HeroScape." You would see people using every toy in their kid's playroom to make new stuff for that game. And I think a lot of people see HeroQuest the same way. I don't personally do a lot of homebrewing but it's a very easy game to go crazy with.
That is how I feel about the haven games in general- it is a solid game and jotl is an excellent tutorial but at the end of the day day the haven games simply are not for me , are not to my taste . And to be clear this is not to take anything away from the haven games . That being said I do give credit to jotl being an affordable “is this game for me “ version so the newbie is not dropping 120$+ on a game franchise they only know if they will like or dislike .
I like how it gradually introduces you to the concepts. I started with Gloomhaven and then played Frosthaven. I found Frosthaven even more difficult because the heroes are all very complicated, moreso than Gloomhaven or Jaws of the Lion. However, I like the plot best in Frosthaven, it's a lot more nuanced than Gloomhaven's plot. Frosthaven also has a city building mechanic. Anyway, complexity isn't any lower in those two so you'll definitely want to avoid them if Jaws of the Lion isn't your bag.
Oh for sure. I am pleased I got a chance to play Jaws of the Lion, but it confirmed that the Gloomhaven system really isn't what I want out of a dungeon crawler. Can't fault the ingenuity, though.
Don't eat them all though, or you won't want your chicken nuggies at teatime. But jokes aside, yes, I do occasionally play complicated games but I have to really engage with them - like Mage Knight. Most of the time, I am going to lean towards slightly simpler systems, especially when it comes to dungeoncrawling where I am usually going to be looking for excitement, fast-paced action, and a strong theme.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring I think the most complicated thing I've played was Altar Quest. It took my gaming group 3+ hours to get through the second room... the first room was empty. 🤣
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Honestly, you can skip it! 😅 But the mini's are cool, I got a bunch of the game for only $100.00 and I mainly just use it for the mini's
I picked the game up last year. I opened the box, punched out all the tokens, and put everything back in the box. I haven't played it. There was too much to keep track of. They released a Gloomhaven video game , and I picked up the Nintendo Switch version. It was easier to get into the video game than the board game equivalent..The difficulty still ramped up very fast, though.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring The digital version of gloomhaven that is on most platforms (including pc via Steam) is really good! Great to keep track of most things. And if the set up is easier in jaws of the lion compared to the original gloomhaven, then the digital version is even more easy since the pc does all that.
I reasonably enjoyed original Gloomhaven and Jaws. I really like the combat puzzle. Original campaign is a bit too long, I absolutely hate the stickers and it's a logistical nightmare to set up and tear down. Jaws fixes a lot of that. Frankly I'm a bit surprised at how popular they are. Worth a place in my collection, but most of the time I'll rather go for Mage Knight or Brimstone, depending on what I'm itching for. Good review, you touched everything I like about the game. Even the elemental board.
The weird thing about me is I love Mage Knight - it's one of the exceptions that breaks the rule. I think the difference there for me is that even though it is a very deep, crunchy puzzle, it all still hinges together within the fantasy world and makes "sense". It still feels like an adventure. Plus, I only ever play it solo.
@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring they're both crunchy games, but since Gloomhaven is so zoomed in, I spot the artificiality more. Single 3-4 card fight in Mage Knight is basically half, maybe whole Gloomhaven mission, thematically thinking. Can't skip loot in Mage Knight. You beat an encounter, you get the loot.
Thanks. I don't think it would be right or fair to call such a well-crafted game "bad." Definitely not what I am looking for in a dungeon-crawler, but you can't argue with the skill and quality of its design.
A lot of legacy games involve permanently changing the board in some way, or changing the way the game plays going forwards. While a lot of people find that really exciting and engaging, I don't. They also tend to require the same group of players, working through an extensive campaign that becomes their own. It sometimes means you can't run the game concurrently with multiple groups, and at the end of it you have a game that really only means something to the people who played it. You can potentially find workarounds for some of the issues, but it's just not a game mode that appeals to me so I tend to avoid it.
Ha. This was definitely one of those times where I was fairly certain on what my thoughts on the game would be, but I was happy to have the chance to give it a go and find out for certain.
Normally I am with you there - I trust my own tastes enough not to buy a game I am fairly certain I won't enjoy. My hobby budget only goes so far, so I have to be certain. Also, I will frequently turn down collaborations for games that I think I'm not going to enjoy. However, on this occasion, being as it was a gift, it was worth a shot, as I thought either way some people may be interested to hear about my experiences with another dungeon crawler.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Now you can re-gift it to someone on your naughty list. I have been using the speedpaint set I got to do some Thunderchild Wasteman minis that have been sitting around for a long while and they work well for mutant post-apoc stuff. Certainly not an faster than normal painting though. I think they might work great for 6mm stuff and I might try them when I get around to painting my Epic Chaos stuff that has sat around for decades. I like the speedpaint metallics quite a bit though. it's rather hard sort to describe how they look but it's a weathered look that is much less dingy or dirty on weapons. I might get a few more colors of them, as I have gold and platemail now. I got the robot box for Zone Wars and the robots are pretty powerful. There are some combos in there that are pretty evil. The terrain is great, though you kind of need to glue it together or the three story building is a bit wonky. I would bet that disassembling and reassembling them repeatedly might damage them quickly.
I was thinking of giving it to my brother, so that works! At some point I need to paint all my Dark Souls stuff, and I was going to go for some very quick, dingy wash armour on all those hollow knights. What would be your take on using the new speedpaint metallics for something like that? I really like the robot faction in Zone Wars, although not as much as the mutant anthropomorphic animals. I am very interested in the terrain, as it would be good to have some quick, pre-coloured terrain that gives different heights. Is it comparable to the old Necromunda stuff (although without the plastic supports)?
I loved Gloomhaven but totally agree with your assesments. What would in your opinion be a good fun dungeon crawler? I would like to try something else.. Frosthaven is even more an optimisation game with more bookeeping.
You might want to check out my top 10 video (or even the full series covering my top 50) as I cover all my favourite games there (although the list does need to be slightly updated). I love HeroQuest, Advanced HeroQuest, Space Crusade, Advanced Space Crusade, Shadows of Brimstone, the D&D adventure board game series, Dark Souls, Stalagbite!, The Undercity, Dungeons and Dragons the Fantasy Adventure Board Game, Space Marine Adventures, modern Warhammer Quest, Rangers of Shadow Deep, DungeonQuest...
If you already have it, I would say you might as well give it a go. If you aren't sure you will like it, I recommend not applying the stickers to the map so you can reset and sell the game if you need to.
Has anyone found the music has gotten way too soft recently? I can barely hear it anymore. Otherwise great video as always. JoTL has been sitting on my shelf unplayed for years. Scared to take it down now. 😅
I haven't adjusted the sound mix. The levels are the same as they have always been. I try to be as tight as possible with the editing, so maybe there is just a little less silence in the videos now? If you already have a copy of Jaws of the Lion I would say it's worth giving it a go. It's such a clever design.
Having played jotl and the original gloomhaven, jotl is an absolute must in terms of order of play. i still am hoping the a short jotl version of frosthaven gets produced.
Jaws does a fabulous job of teaching the game. It really does dismantle the most obvious barriers to entry the main game presents. It's incredibly well done.
Nicely done, I kinda feel the same. Best thing might be the gamebook & the map with stickers. This aside, is it possible you could take a look at the "Legacy of Dragonholt" RPG from Fantasy Flight? No board/tiles or minis, just maps, tokens, character-sheets & questbooks with making decisions, I think, but you can play it solo & it seems to have a good reputation.
Thanks. I remember when Legacy of Dragonholt came out. It looked really interesting, but then it sort of fell off and I didn't hear a lot of good things about it. It seems very expensive at around £55, but it's the sort of thing I would definitely pick up if I saw it for a good price somewhere.
That was a good time to sink into some games that take a long time to play. Games like Mage Knight, where you just let it fill the whole evening and you can be distracted for a while.
We had a very similar experience. Even though we got to play with a full party of adults, it was around mission 4 that I felt bogged down in the game mechanics. Anytime we attacked an enemy, we had to spend a few minutes just deciding how much damage to place on them. We bailed on the game soon thereafter. My wife shook her head and said she thought Heroquest was a much better game. I think the game would be much better in video game form when all the fiddly accounting is done for you automatically.
Have you tried the digital adaptation of Gloomhaven on Steam? I haven't, but I feel like that would definitely be my preferred way of engaging with this game system.
It is much better in the digital version, as you suspect. I love Gloomhaven (finished the original game twice, Jaws of the Lion once and currently playing Frosthaven), but the setup and administration during the game is quite heavy.
I don't really like using apps in games. Where possible I try to avoid screen time as I spend hours glued to tech during any given day. But I suspect this system really does benefit from the app as there is just so much going on. If I played more video games I would probably give the digital version a go too.
@ TBH I don’t like apps in games either, as I also spend all day at work looking at a screen. But the GH helper app really isn’t intrusive at all (I wouldn’t touch games like the new Descent because that is very app dependent)
I got to mission four. Then decided it was too complicated, lacked exploration, and was too much of an optimization puzzle. So I gave it away. Edit: It was the element board that broke me. Up to that point I was slightly frustrated, but still curious.
It's interesting that several people have mentioned mission 4, which is also when I stopped enjoying the experience. The element board and combat goals seemed too much for me, but also the full "level 1" card deck suddenly introduced cards that were so fiddly and required so much effort to pull the abilities off effectively.
It definitely has much more of a Euro feel than a dungeoncrawl feel to it. I think the last time I had to push tokens around like the ones on the element board I was brewing German beer!
I was interested in Gloomhaven and Frosthaven but the length put me off and from playthroughs it came across as becoming complicated. So when I saw GH JOTL game discounted I bought it and I actually enjoyed it, my mate also enjoyed it as he likes tactical thinking. Would I buy the big gloomhaven - no I'm happy with just owning JOTL..... Mind you the GH mini game Buttons and bugs I think it's called looks interesting.z
AlwaysBoardNeverBoringI agree the personal mission cards were too much and the magic thing. Most of the time I forget the magic thing and don't use the personal mission cards. It has faults I'm not saying it's a perfect game lol. Also I like the book maps can use them in different games or play the game/story using different dungeon crawler game mechanics lol. I think if I got the big gloomhaven game I would get frustrated with it,.
I had the steam version. The tedious (to me) card manipulation and overbearing tactical positioning made it feel like a puzzle and not a dungeon crawler. I can see why people like it, if they're into that sort of thing. And, it's obviously a quality product, just wow, not my cup of tea.
It's very much a puzzle, so it didn't really work for me as a dungeoncrawler either; but it also has those combat modifiers, which I felt undermined the crunchy puzzle-based nature of the skirmishes. Definitely superbly assembled, but not for me.
I haven't played jaws of the lion but have played gloomhaven and while their are some interesting mechanics as a game i can't think of a worse game and that was the opinion of my group. Truely a total waste of money and time and yes we were playing it properly.
It's definitely not for everyone. I should imagine it can be quite draining with four players, all trying to optimise their moves! Sorry to hear you didn't enjoy it.
We thought it sucked balls. A real generic snorefest. Cultists cultists and more cultists in random ‘now you’re here’ go and kill some cultists then move to the next area and rinse repeat. I never understood why people rave about this or its overbloated big brother. Its like Dark Souls. God awful. If you want a real game try Oathsworn into the Deepwood. Magical
Once we got to the "full game experience" I have to agree, we found it dull. I can appreciate how clever it all is, but I just didn't have fun with it. I can't agree with the Dark Souls comparison - that is one of my top 10 games. I haven't had a chance to play Oathsworn yet, but it looks fantastic.
I found myself trying to love Gloomhaven over 10s of evenings with friends, but it just never clicked. I understood the mechanics and enjoyed them greatly, but the game always felt like an efficiency puzzle with a fantasy coat of paint when what I really wanted was a coop dungeon crawler.
That sounds very much like my experience. If I am playing a dungeoncrawler, I want it to feel like a rush of exciting adventure. Either a frantic brawl or a tense plunge into the darkness. Jaws feels very much like an optimisation game as you spin a dozen plates at once.
Same I liked the look of Gloomhaven, but after getting and playing a few sessions of Jaws of the Lion, I just had a headache.
I agree that a fantasy adventure should be an escape from overhead and bookeeping, not an exercise in maximising efficiency. Thank you for articulating your thoughts so clearly.
Thanks for watching. I'm glad I was able to express my thoughts clearly. Not always easy when you can see why I game is good, and yet you still can't connect with it.
Very nicely done ABNB, you literally nailed it, I found myself finally understanding why it didn't win us over, or as you said, get us in its Jaws. Brilliant watch!
Thanks so much for sending the game in. I would have loved to have loved it, but I very much loved the chance to try it, and I really appreciate the gift.
@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring You are very welcome
I played the whole campaign with Hatchet and Red Guard. I have to say, that I agree 100% with your review. For me, playing solo, this game was more a chore than an enjoyable experience. It took me over 3 hours from opening the box to putting it away on the shelf again. To many things to keep track of and a pretty annoying way to level up. I can’t think of hi to restart the game from zero to play it again someday. And it is pretty much impossible to homebrew stuff. Maybe I should just sell it. I acknowledge the quality of the product, but it is not for me either.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. There really is a lot to keep track of, and I can't imagine playing it solo, and I play quite a lot of dungeoncrawlers solo.
I played two missions. I can see why people like it. It wasnt for me. So, I tossed the minis into my HeroQuest collection. Who wouldn't want a steam powered mech pilot npc for hire? This has been the ultimate fate of every other dungeon crawler Ive bought. I give the game a try, then cannibalize it when I realize Ill never play it because I'm some kind of hyper fixated mono-maniac. It's happened to four games so far. So far, I think Descent: Legends Of The Dark, is the greatest HeroQuest expansion Ive bought lol.
Honestly, if you're a HeroQuest homebrewer, games like this are usually worth checking out. At best, you get another game to play, at worst you get a bunch of new components. New quests, new decks to introduce, new minis, new furniture.
I always remember that old saying "everything is HeroScape." You would see people using every toy in their kid's playroom to make new stuff for that game. And I think a lot of people see HeroQuest the same way. I don't personally do a lot of homebrewing but it's a very easy game to go crazy with.
That is how I feel about the haven games in general- it is a solid game and jotl is an excellent tutorial but at the end of the day day the haven games simply are not for me , are not to my taste . And to be clear this is not to take anything away from the haven games .
That being said I do give credit to jotl being an affordable “is this game for me “ version so the newbie is not dropping 120$+ on a game franchise they only know if they will like or dislike .
I like how it gradually introduces you to the concepts. I started with Gloomhaven and then played Frosthaven. I found Frosthaven even more difficult because the heroes are all very complicated, moreso than Gloomhaven or Jaws of the Lion. However, I like the plot best in Frosthaven, it's a lot more nuanced than Gloomhaven's plot. Frosthaven also has a city building mechanic. Anyway, complexity isn't any lower in those two so you'll definitely want to avoid them if Jaws of the Lion isn't your bag.
Oh for sure. I am pleased I got a chance to play Jaws of the Lion, but it confirmed that the Gloomhaven system really isn't what I want out of a dungeon crawler. Can't fault the ingenuity, though.
Whew! Sounds a bit complicated for me... I'll just sit here in the corner with my Crayons and HeroQuest... 😅
Don't eat them all though, or you won't want your chicken nuggies at teatime.
But jokes aside, yes, I do occasionally play complicated games but I have to really engage with them - like Mage Knight. Most of the time, I am going to lean towards slightly simpler systems, especially when it comes to dungeoncrawling where I am usually going to be looking for excitement, fast-paced action, and a strong theme.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring I think the most complicated thing I've played was Altar Quest. It took my gaming group 3+ hours to get through the second room... the first room was empty. 🤣
I've never tried Altar Quest. I have some miniatures and card for it though because I was gifted a massive box of Blacklist miniatures.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Honestly, you can skip it! 😅 But the mini's are cool, I got a bunch of the game for only $100.00 and I mainly just use it for the mini's
I picked the game up last year. I opened the box, punched out all the tokens, and put everything back in the box. I haven't played it. There was too much to keep track of.
They released a Gloomhaven video game , and I picked up the Nintendo Switch version. It was easier to get into the video game than the board game equivalent..The difficulty still ramped up very fast, though.
The digital version of Gloomhaven seems like a good idea as it can handle all the bookkeeping.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring The digital version of gloomhaven that is on most platforms (including pc via Steam) is really good! Great to keep track of most things. And if the set up is easier in jaws of the lion compared to the original gloomhaven, then the digital version is even more easy since the pc does all that.
I reasonably enjoyed original Gloomhaven and Jaws. I really like the combat puzzle.
Original campaign is a bit too long, I absolutely hate the stickers and it's a logistical nightmare to set up and tear down. Jaws fixes a lot of that.
Frankly I'm a bit surprised at how popular they are.
Worth a place in my collection, but most of the time I'll rather go for Mage Knight or Brimstone, depending on what I'm itching for.
Good review, you touched everything I like about the game. Even the elemental board.
The weird thing about me is I love Mage Knight - it's one of the exceptions that breaks the rule. I think the difference there for me is that even though it is a very deep, crunchy puzzle, it all still hinges together within the fantasy world and makes "sense". It still feels like an adventure. Plus, I only ever play it solo.
@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring they're both crunchy games, but since Gloomhaven is so zoomed in, I spot the artificiality more.
Single 3-4 card fight in Mage Knight is basically half, maybe whole Gloomhaven mission, thematically thinking. Can't skip loot in Mage Knight. You beat an encounter, you get the loot.
Yeah, I see what you mean. There is that extra layer of abstraction you always get from observing the action from a distance.
What a great review. It’s still glowing while admitting it’s not for you.
Thanks. I don't think it would be right or fair to call such a well-crafted game "bad." Definitely not what I am looking for in a dungeon-crawler, but you can't argue with the skill and quality of its design.
I'm with you on legacy rules. They just rub me the wrong way for board games. That's what roleplaying games are for! 😀
While I get the idea behind them, it distresses me a bit. I don't like destroying things, even for the sake of creating a personal narrative.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring You could hide those items in the box. just saying ;-)
A lot of legacy games involve permanently changing the board in some way, or changing the way the game plays going forwards. While a lot of people find that really exciting and engaging, I don't. They also tend to require the same group of players, working through an extensive campaign that becomes their own. It sometimes means you can't run the game concurrently with multiple groups, and at the end of it you have a game that really only means something to the people who played it. You can potentially find workarounds for some of the issues, but it's just not a game mode that appeals to me so I tend to avoid it.
I think somebody told you all of this once, but you just have to touch the hot burner on the stove.
Ha. This was definitely one of those times where I was fairly certain on what my thoughts on the game would be, but I was happy to have the chance to give it a go and find out for certain.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring I trust my instincts enough that I don't do things like that anymore.
Normally I am with you there - I trust my own tastes enough not to buy a game I am fairly certain I won't enjoy. My hobby budget only goes so far, so I have to be certain. Also, I will frequently turn down collaborations for games that I think I'm not going to enjoy. However, on this occasion, being as it was a gift, it was worth a shot, as I thought either way some people may be interested to hear about my experiences with another dungeon crawler.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Now you can re-gift it to someone on your naughty list.
I have been using the speedpaint set I got to do some Thunderchild Wasteman minis that have been sitting around for a long while and they work well for mutant post-apoc stuff. Certainly not an faster than normal painting though. I think they might work great for 6mm stuff and I might try them when I get around to painting my Epic Chaos stuff that has sat around for decades.
I like the speedpaint metallics quite a bit though. it's rather hard sort to describe how they look but it's a weathered look that is much less dingy or dirty on weapons. I might get a few more colors of them, as I have gold and platemail now.
I got the robot box for Zone Wars and the robots are pretty powerful. There are some combos in there that are pretty evil. The terrain is great, though you kind of need to glue it together or the three story building is a bit wonky. I would bet that disassembling and reassembling them repeatedly might damage them quickly.
I was thinking of giving it to my brother, so that works!
At some point I need to paint all my Dark Souls stuff, and I was going to go for some very quick, dingy wash armour on all those hollow knights. What would be your take on using the new speedpaint metallics for something like that?
I really like the robot faction in Zone Wars, although not as much as the mutant anthropomorphic animals. I am very interested in the terrain, as it would be good to have some quick, pre-coloured terrain that gives different heights. Is it comparable to the old Necromunda stuff (although without the plastic supports)?
I loved Gloomhaven but totally agree with your assesments. What would in your opinion be a good fun dungeon crawler? I would like to try something else.. Frosthaven is even more an optimisation game with more bookeeping.
You might want to check out my top 10 video (or even the full series covering my top 50) as I cover all my favourite games there (although the list does need to be slightly updated). I love HeroQuest, Advanced HeroQuest, Space Crusade, Advanced Space Crusade, Shadows of Brimstone, the D&D adventure board game series, Dark Souls, Stalagbite!, The Undercity, Dungeons and Dragons the Fantasy Adventure Board Game, Space Marine Adventures, modern Warhammer Quest, Rangers of Shadow Deep, DungeonQuest...
😂I haven’t played yet but after your report, hm 🤔 one day maybe ( it looks great on the shelf 😅)
If you already have it, I would say you might as well give it a go. If you aren't sure you will like it, I recommend not applying the stickers to the map so you can reset and sell the game if you need to.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring one day, actually I bought the extra map ( and also I am a collector 😂, no risk of selling it but thank you )!🙏🏻
Has anyone found the music has gotten way too soft recently? I can barely hear it anymore. Otherwise great video as always. JoTL has been sitting on my shelf unplayed for years. Scared to take it down now. 😅
I haven't adjusted the sound mix. The levels are the same as they have always been. I try to be as tight as possible with the editing, so maybe there is just a little less silence in the videos now?
If you already have a copy of Jaws of the Lion I would say it's worth giving it a go. It's such a clever design.
Having played jotl and the original gloomhaven, jotl is an absolute must in terms of order of play. i still am hoping the a short jotl version of frosthaven gets produced.
Jaws does a fabulous job of teaching the game. It really does dismantle the most obvious barriers to entry the main game presents. It's incredibly well done.
Nicely done, I kinda feel the same.
Best thing might be the gamebook & the map with stickers.
This aside, is it possible you could take a look at the "Legacy of Dragonholt" RPG from Fantasy Flight?
No board/tiles or minis, just maps, tokens, character-sheets & questbooks with making decisions, I think, but you can play it solo & it seems to have a good reputation.
Thanks. I remember when Legacy of Dragonholt came out. It looked really interesting, but then it sort of fell off and I didn't hear a lot of good things about it. It seems very expensive at around £55, but it's the sort of thing I would definitely pick up if I saw it for a good price somewhere.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring This being paper only, yes, it is kinda expensive.
Never saw it not cheap. 😅
Super game!! Really enjoyed playing to it on Covid times!
That was a good time to sink into some games that take a long time to play. Games like Mage Knight, where you just let it fill the whole evening and you can be distracted for a while.
We had a very similar experience. Even though we got to play with a full party of adults, it was around mission 4 that I felt bogged down in the game mechanics. Anytime we attacked an enemy, we had to spend a few minutes just deciding how much damage to place on them. We bailed on the game soon thereafter. My wife shook her head and said she thought Heroquest was a much better game.
I think the game would be much better in video game form when all the fiddly accounting is done for you automatically.
Have you tried the digital adaptation of Gloomhaven on Steam? I haven't, but I feel like that would definitely be my preferred way of engaging with this game system.
It is much better in the digital version, as you suspect. I love Gloomhaven (finished the original game twice, Jaws of the Lion once and currently playing Frosthaven), but the setup and administration during the game is quite heavy.
Playing GH JotL with my 13 y.o. son just finished scenario 3....enjoyed it so far would definitely like to finish this campain, we'll see.
Glad you are having fun with it. Best of luck with the rest of the campaign.
I very much enjoyed JotL, but I have to say, the helper app is a ‘must’! It keeps track of a lot of the admin which lets you play far more freely 👍
I don't really like using apps in games. Where possible I try to avoid screen time as I spend hours glued to tech during any given day. But I suspect this system really does benefit from the app as there is just so much going on. If I played more video games I would probably give the digital version a go too.
@ TBH I don’t like apps in games either, as I also spend all day at work looking at a screen. But the GH helper app really isn’t intrusive at all (I wouldn’t touch games like the new Descent because that is very app dependent)
I got the 2nd edition from the 2017 kickstarter and I have never even opened it. Glad I didn't. Never thought I would like the game. I need to sell.
I always suspected it wasn't my sort of thing, and playing Jaws of the Lion confirmed it. I see why so many people like it, though.
I played through this game it feels like a physical computer game. a litteral ton of moving parts and components
There are so many moving parts to keep track of. I can't imagine how much effort it took to design and test it all!
@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring like some autistic super genus
I got to mission four. Then decided it was too complicated, lacked exploration, and was too much of an optimization puzzle. So I gave it away. Edit: It was the element board that broke me. Up to that point I was slightly frustrated, but still curious.
It's interesting that several people have mentioned mission 4, which is also when I stopped enjoying the experience. The element board and combat goals seemed too much for me, but also the full "level 1" card deck suddenly introduced cards that were so fiddly and required so much effort to pull the abilities off effectively.
I really enjoyed Gloomhaven (even if I stopped after 40 scenarios). But this is, and will be, the only Euro game in my entire collection.
It definitely has much more of a Euro feel than a dungeoncrawl feel to it. I think the last time I had to push tokens around like the ones on the element board I was brewing German beer!
I was interested in Gloomhaven and Frosthaven but the length put me off and from playthroughs it came across as becoming complicated. So when I saw GH JOTL game discounted I bought it and I actually enjoyed it, my mate also enjoyed it as he likes tactical thinking. Would I buy the big gloomhaven - no I'm happy with just owning JOTL..... Mind you the GH mini game Buttons and bugs I think it's called looks interesting.z
Glad to hear you enjoyed it. I definitely think Gloomhaven would be another step up again, so definitely beyond the level where I would be having fun.
AlwaysBoardNeverBoringI agree the personal mission cards were too much and the magic thing. Most of the time I forget the magic thing and don't use the personal mission cards. It has faults I'm not saying it's a perfect game lol. Also I like the book maps can use them in different games or play the game/story using different dungeon crawler game mechanics lol.
I think if I got the big gloomhaven game I would get frustrated with it,.
@@Mark-nh2hs I really like the map book. Games liked Stuffed Fables and Mass Effect use the same idea and it works really well.
I had the steam version. The tedious (to me) card manipulation and overbearing tactical positioning made it feel like a puzzle and not a dungeon crawler. I can see why people like it, if they're into that sort of thing. And, it's obviously a quality product, just wow, not my cup of tea.
It's very much a puzzle, so it didn't really work for me as a dungeoncrawler either; but it also has those combat modifiers, which I felt undermined the crunchy puzzle-based nature of the skirmishes. Definitely superbly assembled, but not for me.
I haven't played jaws of the lion but have played gloomhaven and while their are some interesting mechanics as a game i can't think of a worse game and that was the opinion of my group.
Truely a total waste of money and time and yes we were playing it properly.
It's definitely not for everyone. I should imagine it can be quite draining with four players, all trying to optimise their moves! Sorry to hear you didn't enjoy it.
We thought it sucked balls. A real generic snorefest. Cultists cultists and more cultists in random ‘now you’re here’ go and kill some cultists then move to the next area and rinse repeat. I never understood why people rave about this or its overbloated big brother. Its like Dark Souls. God awful. If you want a real game try Oathsworn into the Deepwood. Magical
Once we got to the "full game experience" I have to agree, we found it dull. I can appreciate how clever it all is, but I just didn't have fun with it. I can't agree with the Dark Souls comparison - that is one of my top 10 games. I haven't had a chance to play Oathsworn yet, but it looks fantastic.
Ooooh! I get to be first!!!!!
You do indeed. Thank you for checking out the video.