The PROBLEM of Race in Comics | The Comics Pals Episode 396
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- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2024
- 00:00 Intro
01:37 Is There a Race Problem in Comics?
09:55 Why Don't People Buy Books With Non-White Main Characters?
14:19 Tom Breevort's Comments About How Books Get Green-Lit & Why Ms. Marvel Can't Sustain a Book
17:30 Why Can't People Relate to Characters That Don't Look Like Them?
25:36 Pair Big Creators With Characters That Need Help
30:04 How Much Did DC's Recent Milestone Initiative Help?
39:08 Would Putting new Non-White Creators on Books Like Avengers Help?
47:28 How Marvel's Handling of Sam Wilson Revitalized the Character in the 10's
53:17 The Situation is bad Outside the Big 2
1:05:48 It Wouldn't Take Much to Change Things for the Better
1:14:33 Our All Black Justice League
1:21:10 New Palsverse Entry!
1:27:13 Top Five The Comics Pals Moments - Number Five!
1:36:37 Storm Joining the Avengers
1:46:42 Tom Breevort Sheds Light on Mission Statement for From the Ashes Era
1:55:10 Storm Book Coming From Marvel
2:07:07 Dazzler Book Announced
2:13:17 Tom King & Jeff Spokes Team for Jenny Sparks Series
2:19:00 Eisner Nominees Released
2:35:42 Be the Editor -- Pitch 3 Creative Teams and Books for Absolute DC
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Развлечения
It is entirely possible the sales of the Miles Morales comic does not justify its continuation, but both the movies about him made more money then justice league.
Also alot of these diverse characters are written for a different market, so they are usually given miniseries because the characters sell great in the graphic novel market
It's funny how people think diversity is new.
George Lucas hired Billy D Williams (William December Williams) to play Lando because someone brought up they were disappointed Star Wars didnt have any black characters.
Unfortunately for some, the only "diversity" they can accept is the whatever they got in the movies and shows they liked when they were young.
I think the issue with DC not having black characters who sell books (Milestone though come-on🤨)
Is the core group of DC characters that people have nostalgia for come from the pre-60s.
And DC has done far too little to promote new Black characters since then that Doesn’t feel token.
I love Cyborg and John Stewart as characters. But I can hardly tell you a thing about them outside the teams they are on. ( I think those tv shows did better things with the characters then the comics ever did 👀)
You absolutely nailed it.
It seems like neither DC or Marvel wants to take the time to actual build a fan base for such comics characters. They would rather throw a comic series out there and wait for it to fail, then mark a checkbox for releasing a book with a black main character. Sometimes you have to think outside of the box in order to build a fan base and maybe not doing it the same why you have always have done is not going to work.
X 23 is now my Wolverine after reading all new wolverine. Laura is fantastic and so is Tom Taylor. Same with Kate Bishop, theyre my Hawkeye. Theyre both so much more interesting to me.
Sad that I missed this live. I think that a way to handle this, at least in Marvel, would be to add side stories just like DC does with Batman and Action Comics. Get new creatives, diverse characters, you never know what’s gonna explode. Also, some Marvel books are already priced at $4.99 just like Batman, why not add more value to them.
The concept of a big name creator coming in for the beginning of a book is interesting, kinda like what happened with the most recent Doom book. It’s a Sanford Green creation, but Hickman came in and gave it some additional touches. It kinda reminds me how in movies, a producer’s credit adds some value. Like when Spielberg’s name is attached to the Transformers movies, even though you know he didn’t do anything meaningful in there.
It’s a tried and true method to help raise the name value of a creator (and give them a chance to learn from a more experienced one if they need that). Hickman himself got that kind of rub from Bendis on Secret Warriors.
I wish that I was able to catch this live, because as an oldhead who's returning to comics after many years away I have a lot to say about this. I don't know where it origininates, but one of the things that I found most shocking when I got back into comics and started looking for communities online was how many of them are infested with chuds. Granted, when I was younger and buying comics the internet wasn't really a thing so I have to assume that those kinds of fans were out there somewhere at the time, but the people I knew, the people who hung out at my LCS etc were far more welcoming to diversity - not just open to it, it was valued. I'm a very progressive person, and I owe a good chunk of my politics to the comics I read...the X-Men taught me about race issues, books like Sandman & the Invisibles taught me about LGBTQ+ inclusivity, and pretty much every comic taught me that altruism was better than self-interest. Being heroic means looking out for each other.
Back in the day, comics were selling hundreds of thousands of copies per month. Now they're selling a small fraction of that. This means that these toxic communities and influencers - collectively - can affect sales, and I think which communities new or young readers get exposed to can have an impact on whether or not they're willing to support something that's new or different.
I also think the political climate in the US is a huge factor too. You have a lot "anti-woke" crusaders out there, and a sad number of young people - particularly white men - have bought in to all of that nonsense.
Anyway, I'm glad that I've found a home with you guys :)
Wish I could like this comment ten times over. Thank you for being here with us!
Fantastic comment.
@@ReaperXC Thank you :)
@@TheComicsPals Thank you :)
race traitor
One of the biggest problems, imo, is competing titles. I'm not trying to buy 2 Green Lantern books, but I'll buy 1, so why make me choose between Green Lantern and Green Lantern: War Journal? I'm automatically inclined to look towards the one that doesn't sound like it's a secondary book or miniseries, even if I prefer John. Same with Spider-Man. I'm not trying to read multiple spider books at the same time. I was only reading Miles because ASM has been garbage and I stopped picking up Miles since Ultimate dropped..
This is a great point that I wish I had thought to mention during the show because I have definitely felt this way.
What a good point about disposal income and race/socio-economic status.
I also feel a lot of people juat read articles and complain about comics. Or more likely, read headlines.
its so much fun
I didnt expect anything but the best here, and I'm not disappointed. You guys did a great job having this discussion
Thank you Izzy!
1:08:29 another comment: people tell me AS A COMPLIMENT I don't have a southern accent. I am a giant blonde white male-presenting person from the sticks of Virginia, I dont usually get ostracized based on things like that. So the fact that people emphasize such a remark as a compliment or "they mean well" is like the micro-est microcosm of demographic biases which I know is the faintest comparison to more serious discrimination
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
01:37 Is There a Race Problem in Comics?
09:55 Why Don't People Buy Books With Non-White Main Characters?
14:19 Tom Breevort's Comments About How Books Get Green-Lit & Why Ms. Marvel Can't Sustain a Book
17:30 Why Can't People Relate to Characters That Don't Look Like Them?
25:36 Pair Big Creators With Characters That Need Help
30:04 How Much Did DC's Recent Milestone Initiative Help?
39:08 Would Putting new Non-White Creators on Books Like Avengers Help?
47:28 How Marvel's Handling of Sam Wilson Revitalized the Character in the 10's
53:17 The Situation is bad Outside the Big 2
1:05:48 It Wouldn't Take Much to Change Things for the Better
1:14:33 Our All Black Justice League
1:21:10 New Palsverse Entry!
1:27:13 Top Five The Comics Pals Moments - Number Five!
1:36:37 Storm Joining the Avengers
1:46:42 Tom Breevort Sheds Light on Mission Statement for From the Ashes Era
1:55:10 Storm Book Coming From Marvel
2:07:07 Dazzler Book Announced
2:13:17 Tom King & Jeff Spokes Team for Jenny Sparks Series
2:19:00 Eisner Nominees Released
2:35:42 Be the Editor -- Pitch 3 Creative Teams and Books for Absolute DC
Such a good point about Storm's creative team.
Find top tier creators for 6 to twelve issues then if it's not selling well, change the team to people of a lesser reputation.
Love comic books read black panther and Asian characters
I am white
How do you feel about Rodney Barnes ?
Rodney Barnes has a screenwriter and producer background but he is a big comic book and horror fan who knows the history of big name comic characters. He is a big Swamp Thing fan and has two unannounced DC comics projects coming soon his most popular work is the indie comic Killadelphia. If Marvel gave him a shot at The Incredible Hulk and Blade I think he would nail it with his horror influence.
Truthfully I haven't read anything of Rodney's that I can recall outside of Luke Cage: Gang War which I thought was just alright. I'd like to see his name on more books though.
Great Discussion as always Pals!
Gotta say I'm also part of the problem too. I also don't look for comics for diversity/minority or even lead roles on it, most of the time I get to like those character if they appear in the book I'm reading or they take the main role of it. It's one of the reasons why I have read some Miles books, because he took the role of Ultimate Spider-man after Peter and got to establish as a Spider-man, a character that I like.
Venom, the blonde/white/blue eyes dominated book, that I have been reading constantly for 5 years and that I have loved what they done with the mythos and main characters, has struggled a lot with putting diversity in it. Women barely appear in the books. I feel like is troublesome to have an A-Tier book and not doing something on that front. It's probably the best opportunity to tell those stories or show characters that are from other races/orientations.
You make good points as usual. This is something Bendis did excellently during his time at the top of Marvel.
All sound points. Premise is a problem with superhero comics too, there's so many and the premises are generally bland. Standstill is releasing from Image, simple compelling premise. Not A list creators. Take a premise that good and make John Butcher, Bronze Tiger, Katana or Aztek the lead etc. Bought e.g Steel because I want POC titles too but it was a bland premise
Right on. All the more reason why books starring POC characters need to have strong, creatively driven reasons to exist. When they don't and they're bland as you say, it's a double whammy. They basically HAVE to knock it out of the park in order to get more opportunities.
Al Simmons is my favorite comic book character
Love Spawn!
@@TheComicsPals there’s a new series called Misery about Wanda’s** daughter Cyan, hope they do a good job. Cover A is really cool.
@@VideosbyCharlie3 Cyan is not Al's daughter because Al was shooting blanks when he was alive. Cyan is the daughter of Wanda and Terry (Al's best friend). Terry married Wanda after Al's death and then Wanda gave birth to Cyan.
Ahh thanks you’re right been a while since I read the early issues! lol
I highly doubt Miles is being published at a loss. Marvel has committed to ongoings him for a decade now, he's pretty well established as a staple now (movies helped too).
The problem is most minority characters aren't given that same chance. They get the random mini, or if they're lucky, an occasional ongoing that's cancelled after 1-2 runs. Marvel and DC need to commit over time
They also need to have these characters doing things in universe that matter. Miles has felt a lot less relevant since Civil War 2 and Secret Wars where he had a bit more prominence in the overall Marvel mix.
@@TheComicsPals agreed
I have seen Miles in the top 20 selling comics a lot.
My personal theory, which is the perspective of a reader. Comics, well mainstream comics suffers from " not upseting the masses ", in the sense that the creators have a fear of representing minoraties in a bad light. Most of the time this has harsh backlash, that and black creators are too inexperienced to lead a book for a long time. Audiences also gravate to big name writers and artists, with black characters becoming a bigger risk than it should be.
The solution to this, put these characters in the mini series, and give the lesser known creaters the time and space to grow and gain experience with said characters. In time as a reader myself, will stick to the good stories that come from that.
I think Hickman's name sold the Doom book it was smart for Sanford Greene to get with him. Sanford Greene has fans that will buy every comic he draws in. It will be interesting to see how his creator owned comic turns out because he is jumping to the writer side.
No doubt about it.
I think the only way to solve this problem is to solve the distribution problem as well. Comics is too niche a market with too small an audience, and not enough effort has been made to solve this
Most people wouldn't even know where to start getting into comics. I certainly didn't. I didn't even know what an LCS was until 3 years ago. I had read Marvel Unlimited for a couple years before that, but that doesn't keep monthly books afloat
Digital, day of release comics should be cheap, accessible, and marketed to potential new readers. That way you can expand into demographics beyond middle-aged white men with money to spare. I'm not saying replace established buyers but take advantage of the sheer size of the universes so that you can market to other demographics as well. Those new demographics won't have the same established staples so you can build out more characters to become staples
A good convo about race in comics but it would have been better with the Black Comic Lords members or Blerd minus Fear or Moana McAdams some other additional voices maybe someone with more years in comics collecting like Theo butler. There is always another time. This is definitely a on going conversation. Good work.
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it. I’m a fan of those channels as well.
The miles book isn't selling because they constantly interrupt it every 4 issues for an invent so everyone got tired and dropped it. As for Miss. Marvel, I can only speak for myself, and it has nothing to do with race. Her power is stretchy arms, I'm sorry but that doesn't rank very high on the Mcfarlane cool factor flow chart. I want capes, guns, chains, and claws in my comics unless I'm reading indie. I also find that some of these characters have actually regressed in the name of diversity. Take Storm for example, you had a beautiful compassionate character who shied away from royalty because she didn't view herself as being any better than anyone else. Fast forward to 2024 and I just find her to be arrogant and mean. I feel like they took away all of her compassion, the character doesn't feel warm to me anymore (this is just my opinion). As a result, I won't read the new mini-series. I feel the same way about Misty Knight. Every time I read a comic she's just walking around belittling and insulting everyone. She even treats Miles like crap. It's the same with Riri Williams, she just shows up and insults everyone, including Tony and Forge in the ongoing run. Some of these writers don't seem to understand that you don't need to turn your character mean in order to empower them. Your character needs to be likeable in some way. Now let's compare that to the John Stewart book. You have this beautiful compassionate character who is dealing with his mother's Dementia and at the same time trying to save the world all while doing things with his ring that some may deem unethical. It's interesting and relatable, but most importantly John isn't mean and doesn't act mean just for the sake of it. I don't care what race the character is, if you can give me a good story with compelling character development with a hero that has cool powers then I'll read it. These are just some thoughts from a white comic book reader.
I appreciate the perspective. I can't comment on Misty or RiRi, but I wouldn't say I feel this way about Storm at all. In Resurrection of Magneto, she puts herself at great, terrible risk in order to save Magneto. During that period, she's confronted by an entity that tries to convince her that she's worthy of even greater power and she can use it to save the world, playing on the idea that Storm sees herself as greater than others, or singularly responsible for saving humanity. It essentially flirted with her ego. It was ineffective BECAUSE Storm doesn't see herself that way.
With regards to the rock & hard place of having BIPOC character books created by a big name white creator/team or a BIPOC creative team doing something they are passionate about. I'm not a corporation, I'm an actual person I care about the story not the profit margins (which profits should always be secondary, especially in niche markets like comics for instance). I want the authenticity as it will always create a more interesting story. Even if it's not well done, made or told; a big swing is always more respectable than a strategic bunt. Sure it'll be a miniseries (intentional or not) but it allows new talent freedom & a foot in the door. Which becomes the thousand cuts that create a more diverse creator pool (see the current & previous writers on Detective Comics). If every book/character gets defaulted to the same dozen names....look....if the book says Hickman/Morrison/Snyder etc on the cover you know what that's going to look like. Irrespective of the character. If some name you've never seen is on a book for a character you don't really know but the word of mouth & awards start rolling in, a Tom King's Vision way, that's how you make A-list creators.
Beyond caring about ethnicity/diversity of the characters within the stories (in an organic way that) the next simplest way for me overall is the companies actually doing appropriate skin tones in print. I mean Dick Grayson isn't white, Damian Wayne isn't white, Selina Kyle isn't white....but they sure as shit are drawn that way. And that's just Bat-Family, none of whom I consider to have a "requirement" to be drawn white (Apart from Bruce Wayne & maybe Kate Kane, for class reasons). We're well beyond the 4 colour printing era, there's no excuse. You can be more diverse & morally should be more diverse overall.
I think part of the problem is that Marvel and DC have not figure out how to promote some characters long term and bad writing also plays a part in it. I don't understand why Marvel and DC don't license black characters back to their creators who want to do something with the character like the creator of Blue Marvel.
Yeah, there has to be active effort to promote the characters and make people care about them.
Its not a race problem, its a creative problem. If the stories are interesting people will read them regardless. When it comes to the big two I currently read only three titles. Two books from Marvel and one from DC. Ultimate Spider-man, Avengers Twilight and Worlds Finest. Everything else from the big two just bores me. It's got nothing to do with race, gender or sexual orientation.
You can't force a creative person to write something they don't wanna do. If Hickman doesn't want to write Ultimate Spider-man anymore he wont do it regardless of what Marvel pay him, because he's creative.
You need to find someone who is creative and wants to write 100 issues of adventures for a character that their passionate about. That might mean recruiting new creative hungry writers which I understand requires taking a risk and might blow up in the publishers face. But its the only way.
Entertainment, in general, has the same race problem that the whole of America has. We live in a culture founded on and and which has been supported by foundational racism and racist polices for centuries. Course correcting away from that is not simple, easy or fast. So, the answer to your question is, "yes."
Absolutely. And trying to figure out the solution to that is frustrating, but I feel like we need to have conversations to get to a place where things can improve.
Personally I feel like forced diversity is a problem when you take out a popular character, ala iron heart replacing ironman (2016). I liked the run but once tony was killed off alot of people abandoned the comic. The ironman market crashed, no one bought anything ironman related. We wanted Tony, not iron heart. Even then to me it wasn't a "ohh iron heart is black and I don't like black people" thing, the book just wasn't rewritten well. On that to me it's also an author thing too. BMB makes alot of new characters but he leaves them to others to try and most times they fail.
I was among those who stopped reading shortly after Tony was taken off the board. I like RiRi, but not at the cost of Tony which is what it felt like.
@TheComicsPals I liked you guys mentioning Mighty Avengers Luke Cage. I loved that run, gave new life into his character and we even saw him more and more in cartoons and once the netflix show started I was so happy to see more. Now we are lucky he gets a cameo in anything.
You forgot The outsiders which features Luke Fox leading a new version of Planetary - a book I am loving and GL War Journal with John Stewart over at DC
We didn't forget! We were talking about solo books largely, and I mentioned throughout this conversation that after GL War Journal ends, DC's current publishing line will include no solo books starring a POC.
Glad the Outsiders book is working for you though!
Disagree with ol dudes point about it being more important to have A listers doing POC characters than talented minorities cuz how do those A list talent wise creators get to A list recognition? It's not playing background roles for the first ½ of their careers in the majors, it's by proving they deserve to be there and u gotta give em that chance.
Love the podcast & only commenting my disagreement cuz it sticks out in my mind.
The problem with your suggestion is that the book will struggle to sell, get cancelled and the companies will learn the wrong lesson from that failing. Of course in an ideal world what you're suggesting would be the way, but when you take unknown creators and put them on characters that struggle to sell as it is, you're not exactly creating a recipe for success.
What you're talking about are two separate issues: one is helping build up the name recognition and experience of talented PoC writers. The other is building up the cache and fan excitement around minority characters. Both issues require setting up the creators and characters for the MOST success.
Ram V got recognized by big 2 readers because of his backups in Justice League. Luke Cage became a much bigger star due to Bendis choosing to write him in New Avengers. We never, ever would have gotten the Netflix show if not for that. Bendis' name recognition and proper usage of Luke Cage introduced thousands to a character they otherwise wouldn't have paid attention to, wouldn't have bought a book about and would not have watched a show about.
I appreciate that you enjoy our show! It's okay that we're not aligned on this, but I wanted to give you an expansive answer as I feel it's an important conversation to have.
I find it sad i watch videos/listen to podcasts which have the same or similar view of progression/acceptance but news media tells me im wrong and need to be conservative.
Yeah, it’s all about what we allow ourselves to be influenced by and watch.
Dang, i missed the show! But great show pals!
Thanks Joe!
I'm 19 minutes in and there are too many ad breaks
We have nothing to do with that, gotta blame YT.
We all want to see ourselves as the hero,iconography is a part of being a human being. Race is a part of life…it’s nothing new. I buy comics I like and can relate to. X-men is so diverse that we didn’t get Storm until 1975 and Bishop didn’t show up til 1991..just saying race doesn’t matter until it matters..
Yeah, even today the X-Men line is dominated by the white characters. I love them! But that is the case.
I feel like the blame is always placed on readers for not embracing diverse characters and never placed on the publishers for investing in diverse characters with A-list talent
I mean, if they put like Jeff Johns or somebody on cyborg with some Dan Mora or somebody and put some marketing money into it it would be a hot book
We absolutely said this.
the most carefully weeded comments thread on yt today...
Huh. Well, yours has stayed up this whole time. So have quite a few others that don’t agree with us. There goes your theory.
I mean, I don’t think I am a “certain segment of the population that sees a statement being made“ just because a character is black. I can list off like nine examples of the Miles Morales in the first volume, pushing anti-police and racial identity obsession, which alienates people who aren’t obsessed with racial identity. I think that’s kind of garbage to, quantify my claim like that.
How many times does Peter Parker being a white man come up in a given run=0
How many times per issue does it race up for miles? All of the time
I don’t need a character to look like to me enjoy it, but I need it to be a character, but I need them to be a real character. If I feel as though some shit hack writer like Cody Ziglar is using his platform to espouse his racial politics instead of someone with a real story to tell, it turns me off and I won’t read it. If you want these characters to catch on, they need to stop being used for propaganda
Question: how many times do you think being a minority comes up in life for minorities? How often do you think it impacts their lives?Try to think about things outside of yourself.
It’s not an “obsession with racial identity”, that’s a weird characterization. I appreciate that you have a different opinion, but the language you’re using makes it seem like you’re really upset about this and it feels like that goes deeper than comics man.
@@TheComicsPals why should I have to be burdened with a bunch of racial identity crap in my escapist entertainment and why am I at fault if that breaks my immersion? There are and have always been nuanced stories that deal with race and bigotry in comics and none of them are written by ham fisted activists like Cody Ziglar. I’m not “upset”, it’s legitimately an obsession with racial identity and victimhood that I don’t share.
@@bryanrickard7712 What a shame.
Apologies in advance but this is going to go long. I work in politics and the process of building a coalition there is very similar to building a coalition to sell an ongoing book. Comic readers (despite some changes recently) are disproportionately white and male, and white men disproportionately spend more even among existing readers. Because of this, any POC book has to win over a big chunk of white men to sell well. Working in politics I’ve really identified three groups among white men.
20-30% of white men are progressive and are going to be willing to try out any creator. Miles Morales sells well (40k a month) because these guys buy it in droves because it’s a good character. These guys will also tryout Marvel Voices or Mosaic or whatever half-hearted attempt there is to introduce POC creators.
30-50% of white men are consciously or subconsciously racist. I’m sorry, it’s true. Many of them aren’t aware they are racist, but they associate POC creators with “wokeness” and won’t buy their books. This refusal creates a need for any POC book to massively overperform with non-white readers, otherwise it’s not profitable.
20-30% of white men are the “persuadable centrists”, and these guys are the most important to understand if you really want to change the industry. They are usually apolitical and not actively opposed or supportive of solving race issues. But they frequently will join the racists in making books sell poorly because they have some hang ups. For these guys, they fantasize about being creators like all comic fans do. Because they are white, they have always seen it as a possibility that they might be the creator on their favorite character. If they realize that there’s a mandate that a white man can’t write Black Panther or Miles, they get angry because you’ve destroyed their fantasy, you’ve locked them out. Now you might say that POC never got to have that fantasy because all the big creators are white, but that’s just how they feel. It also deincentivises them to being fans of POC characters because they translate mandates against white creators as the message that “it’s not for you”. If we are going to fix the systematic racism in comics, we are going to have to get language that resonates with these people. Otherwise, POC books will have a hard sales ceiling and will keep getting cancelled.
Question: in your work, do you see those percentages change with age? Are the percentages different for a 25-year-old white person versus someone who is 50?
i dunno if DC comics has a race problem. you certainly do tho