To me, the White Horse of Uffington carved into the landscape suggests a possible connection of a horse goddess to the land. When Rhiannon first appears on her white horse in the First Branch of the Mabinogi, the story is reminiscent of Thomas the Rhymer's song about the Queen of Faery taking True Thomas into the Otherworld. I don't remember which family Rhiannon is said to belong to, but I have heard that the family of Don was related to the Irish family of Danu. The difference between the Sidhe and the Gods is not always really clear in these stories and I suppose if monks wrote them down, they would downplay the status of the pagan Gods and Goddesses. So I think Rhiannon has aspects of both Goddess and Faery or Andedion. Her association with birds is also a connection to the Goddess as birds have been associated with the Goddess since the Upper Paleolithic on stone and bone carvings. According to Caitlin Matthews in her book "Mabon and the Guardians of Celtic Britain", Rhiannon fits the pattern of Modron with her son Pryderi, who is one manifestation of the Mabon.
Well Rhiannon (Rigantona in Brythonic) might be a horse goddess like Epona and Macha, but surely the story between her and Pryderi might not be the original nor her name, which is closely related to Mór Ríoghain aka the goddess Bóinn.
Not sure similarities in Welsh and Irish medieval stories prove an origin either way. Similarities could of course be a result of borrowing, but they can also be the result of a common inheritance both Celtic languages share, that being from the original Celtic culture of roughly 3,000 years ago.
Is the theonymic suffix -on as part of Rhiannon's name not an evidence of her possible divinity? Based on what I know thus far, it is unsurprising that there are very few native British deity images or inscriptions surviving to be found from the Iron Age or Roman occupation periods if, in fact, the ancient British peoples did have an animistic and pantheistic view of divinity. It is even less surprising that there's little evidence of that sort left if in fact the use of carved humanoid images and Roman-ish "religious" artifacts such as curse tablets, devotional plinths, etc were not popular in pre-Roman native British religious expression (just as they were not popular in other pre-Roman Celtic civilizations). Given how few of these there are, it's unsurprising that one doesn't exist for Rhiannon and several other possibly deific figures in the Welsh literature (and therefore, by the same turn, surprising that we're lucky enough to have some surviving shreds of evidence that some of those figures in fact were deific from the pre-Christian era, e.g. Nudd/Nodens, Modron/Matrona, Mabon/Maponos, Gofannon/Gobannos, etc). If I understand correctly, in Gaul, where such religious finds are numerous, the Romans colonized Gaul for between 500 and 700 years, depending on the locality, while the Roman occupation of Britain only lasted half that duration and even that seemed much less strongly held for much of that time. Gaul had already been pretty fully colonized for over 100 years by the time of the outlawing of druids and the uprising of Boudica. And there is, for example, no physical archaeological evidence of the goddess Andraste outside of the writings which say Boudica called upon her (that I'm aware of), even though she obviously must have been quite important at least to the Iceni, if the written account is to be believed at all. It seems as far as I currently understand that the Britons, in addition to having a less direct Roman influence due to geographical distance, also didn't have as much time as the Gauls for direct Roman influence to catch on among the general population of non-elite/non-ruling class natives (influence which would've been more likely to cause them to start venerating their gods in the Roman way, with statues and inscriptions and etc, as we see in Gaul). There wasn't nearly as much time span of Roman conquest over Britain before official Christianization began and would have been discouraging use and production of pagan objects in general. As far as Ronald Hutton is concerned, he is a respectable scholar and surely has done some valuable work, but I do very strongly get the impression from multiple of his writings that nothing short of a manuscript or engraving from some time between 500 and 1100 AD that very specifically claims "these figures are the old gods of the Britons" would ever convince him. And besides that, I find his claim that Rhiannon has nothing in common with Epona outside of horses to be false anyway. Epona's iconography frequently shows her with/suckling a foal (which Pryderi is mirrored by in Rhiannon's story), with birds (and of course we all know of Rhiannon's birds), and with a dog (it was puppies which were used to make the false evidence for Rhiannon's infanticide).
Rhiannon seems to be a two word title, probably ancient Welsh or brythonic. Re or rhea, that is: maiden. Annon meaning annwfn or the Welsh underworld. Therefore she is a chthonic deity. Hutton protests a bit too much, I think. As for the epona/macha connection, there are similarities as well as with black demeter, an aspect of the Greek goddess demeter. And then there are rhiannons birds...
@@Inquisitor_Vex it's not a bad argument because you don't what your talking comparing modern names of modern day countries to tribes to invalidate what I said
@@Inquisitor_Vex all of the tribe's I named 9 months ago lived in what is today Britain but they can't be compared to a person from France or Germany or Italy etc
🦋 Rhiannon is A Welsh goddess whose roots go deep before Language. She came to England in a shrouded and Mystical way and Avalon and all the gods and English goddesses came under her protection along with all of Europe.🌹 English magic fell into the realm of Bibbley Babbly. But recently Rhiannon returned the keys. 🐚 🔔 🌈
This is a great wee video. Concise and good arguments. I'll be sharing it!
However, the link didn't take me to those sources . . .
sorry! sources now available
This is exciting! Happy to go deeper into this on Wendesday.
To me, the White Horse of Uffington carved into the landscape suggests a possible connection of a horse goddess to the land. When Rhiannon first appears on her white horse in the First Branch of the Mabinogi, the story is reminiscent of Thomas the Rhymer's song about the Queen of Faery taking True Thomas into the Otherworld. I don't remember which family Rhiannon is said to belong to, but I have heard that the family of Don was related to the Irish family of Danu. The difference between the Sidhe and the Gods is not always really clear in these stories and I suppose if monks wrote them down, they would downplay the status of the pagan Gods and Goddesses. So I think Rhiannon has aspects of both Goddess and Faery or Andedion. Her association with birds is also a connection to the Goddess as birds have been associated with the Goddess since the Upper Paleolithic on stone and bone carvings. According to Caitlin Matthews in her book "Mabon and the Guardians of Celtic Britain", Rhiannon fits the pattern of Modron with her son Pryderi, who is one manifestation of the Mabon.
Well Rhiannon (Rigantona in Brythonic) might be a horse goddess like Epona and Macha, but surely the story between her and Pryderi might not be the original nor her name, which is closely related to Mór Ríoghain aka the goddess Bóinn.
Not sure similarities in Welsh and Irish medieval stories prove an origin either way. Similarities could of course be a result of borrowing, but they can also be the result of a common inheritance both Celtic languages share, that being from the original Celtic culture of roughly 3,000 years ago.
@@gwilmor
Doubt it
No
Is the theonymic suffix -on as part of Rhiannon's name not an evidence of her possible divinity?
Based on what I know thus far, it is unsurprising that there are very few native British deity images or inscriptions surviving to be found from the Iron Age or Roman occupation periods if, in fact, the ancient British peoples did have an animistic and pantheistic view of divinity. It is even less surprising that there's little evidence of that sort left if in fact the use of carved humanoid images and Roman-ish "religious" artifacts such as curse tablets, devotional plinths, etc were not popular in pre-Roman native British religious expression (just as they were not popular in other pre-Roman Celtic civilizations). Given how few of these there are, it's unsurprising that one doesn't exist for Rhiannon and several other possibly deific figures in the Welsh literature (and therefore, by the same turn, surprising that we're lucky enough to have some surviving shreds of evidence that some of those figures in fact were deific from the pre-Christian era, e.g. Nudd/Nodens, Modron/Matrona, Mabon/Maponos, Gofannon/Gobannos, etc).
If I understand correctly, in Gaul, where such religious finds are numerous, the Romans colonized Gaul for between 500 and 700 years, depending on the locality, while the Roman occupation of Britain only lasted half that duration and even that seemed much less strongly held for much of that time. Gaul had already been pretty fully colonized for over 100 years by the time of the outlawing of druids and the uprising of Boudica. And there is, for example, no physical archaeological evidence of the goddess Andraste outside of the writings which say Boudica called upon her (that I'm aware of), even though she obviously must have been quite important at least to the Iceni, if the written account is to be believed at all. It seems as far as I currently understand that the Britons, in addition to having a less direct Roman influence due to geographical distance, also didn't have as much time as the Gauls for direct Roman influence to catch on among the general population of non-elite/non-ruling class natives (influence which would've been more likely to cause them to start venerating their gods in the Roman way, with statues and inscriptions and etc, as we see in Gaul). There wasn't nearly as much time span of Roman conquest over Britain before official Christianization began and would have been discouraging use and production of pagan objects in general.
As far as Ronald Hutton is concerned, he is a respectable scholar and surely has done some valuable work, but I do very strongly get the impression from multiple of his writings that nothing short of a manuscript or engraving from some time between 500 and 1100 AD that very specifically claims "these figures are the old gods of the Britons" would ever convince him. And besides that, I find his claim that Rhiannon has nothing in common with Epona outside of horses to be false anyway. Epona's iconography frequently shows her with/suckling a foal (which Pryderi is mirrored by in Rhiannon's story), with birds (and of course we all know of Rhiannon's birds), and with a dog (it was puppies which were used to make the false evidence for Rhiannon's infanticide).
Rhiannon seems to be a two word title, probably ancient Welsh or brythonic. Re or rhea, that is: maiden. Annon meaning annwfn or the Welsh underworld. Therefore she is a chthonic deity. Hutton protests a bit too much, I think. As for the epona/macha connection, there are similarities as well as with black demeter, an aspect of the Greek goddess demeter. And then there are rhiannons birds...
Rhea
No such people as the Celts but there were Celtic tribes like the Iceni,Brigantes,Atrebates,etc
I think your mistaking a modern term for a language group with an ethnonym. Although Caesar did claim it was the name the Gauls called themselves.
This is such a bad argument. It’s like saying there’s no Europeans, only Germans, French, Italians, etc.
@@Inquisitor_Vex it's not a bad argument because you don't what your talking comparing modern names of modern day countries to tribes to invalidate what I said
@@Inquisitor_Vex all of the tribe's I named 9 months ago lived in what is today Britain but they can't be compared to a person from France or Germany or Italy etc
@@CelticSource actually Julius Caesar named many tribes like the Helveti,Aedui,Aquitani,Suevi,etc
🦋 Rhiannon is A Welsh goddess whose roots go deep before Language.
She came to England in a shrouded and Mystical way and Avalon and all the gods and English goddesses came under her protection along with all of Europe.🌹
English magic fell into the realm of Bibbley Babbly. But recently Rhiannon returned the keys. 🐚 🔔 🌈
I think you may be confusing English / British here. None of the sources I discussed are from English culture, they're all Celtic, and mainly Welsh.
Not English. English didn't exist then. She's a Welsh deity.