How often do Tesla's motors fail?
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2024
- #AllThingsEV #ElectricVehicles #tesla #ev
00:00 - Topic
00:08 - Intro
00:26 - Survey Data
01:12 - Model Respondent by %
01:25 - Motor Failure by model
02:47 - Motor failure by the range
04:26 - Tesla's warranty
04:58 - Motor replaced under warranty
05:12 - Estimated cost for replacement
05:12 - Estimated cost for replacement
05:59 - Estimated failure rate
06:59 - Conclusion
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Here's the survey if you'd like to fill it out: docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdCaOjd9X200MleVvGrUTNOVj2FlfclD3-TQfvtnyYB7AAF8g/viewform
Sean Mitchell - how do you correct for confirmation bias and calculate actual failure rates? For example if I sample all deaths to find that cause of death is cancer 5% of all deaths, it does not mean that 5% of population gets cancer. Also, failure rates probably need to correct for miles drive. Hence a statistic such as MTBF such as Mean Time Between Failure or a Half Life to Failure is more meaningful. These stats you presented really make no sense. You seem like a smart guy. Why would you actively generate such misinformation?
I went to that page but was put off participating by the intrusive nature of the questions e.g. they wanted my email address and full name, I have no intention of divulging that to some unknown web page. What's next, mothers maiden name, national insurance number and the name of my first pet.
@@dogphlap6749 Thanks for the feedback. As stated on the form, I’m just using email as a soft way to validate ownership. Your info stays private with me.
One thing to keep in mind is that the older models had an AC induction motor and Inverter, while the Y and 3 and newer S/X have a PM motor with different inverter. So, Its kind of Apples and Oranges, combining the data.
The early Model S motors failed a lot. It turned out the bearings were failing even though they were nowhere near the mechanical limits of those bearings. What was eventually found by Tesla was the rotor, turning in a strong magnetic field would act as a parasitic electrical generator, the output of which would travel to frame earth via the motor shaft bearings causing the steel balls to be arc etched until the slop in those bearings became so bad the deteriorating gear mesh led to a lot of noise and mechanical failure.
I happened to mention this to an electrical engineer I know who informed me this was not a novel problem (which I had assumed it was). The elevator industry had exactly the same problem years earlier with their lift motors but Tesla was unaware of others having had and solving this problem years ahead of them.
My 2015 Model S70D has had no motor problems (it was built after Tesla found and fixed the above problem). I've driven 103,083 km or 64,427 miles since new.
So do they just need ground straps from the motor to the frame to remedy that?
@@catsaregovernmentspies They need a slip ring to ground the rotor directly to avoid current passing through the ball bearings, although ceramic (non-conductive) bearings might work. Just what fix they came up with I don't know (but I bet someone reading these comments does know and could correct my guess). This is for motors earlier than the ones fitted to my 2015 Model S.
@@dogphlap6749 Tesla reduced this problem by using hybrid ceramic bearings for the rotor. They also tried to solve it with an Aegis shaft grounding ring. But that ring got contaminated with excess grease from the bearing and stops working. Last year Aegis revealed a new design that is supposed to be more resistant against contamination. Others state that an agressive driving style and climate are now dominant influencers for the damage done by those currents. It is a vexing problem still.
@@diyEVguy Thank you for your reply. I was under the impression this problem had been solved (its severity is certainly much reduced for vehicles like my late 2015 car compared to earlier Tesla vehicles), interesting to hear from you that despite the knowledge of the cause, the fix may still not be 100%.
Stray currents pitting ball-bearings in electric motors and generators is a problem known since the 1800's. Surely Tesla planned for handling the stray currents in their original design, but it fell short.
This data set is too small. Easier for people with issues to report them then say nothing at all if everything is fine
Unfortunately, tesla is very good at hiding how many battery packs and motors they produce/sell.
yeah, he lost me with sample size of 198. Not near enough.
Give it time and you'll be proven right. Data set way too small.
I have a 2014 Model S 85KW, at 150k miles, November 2021, I had to replace the drive unit under warranty. Last year in August, I had to replace it again under warranty. Now at 206,000 miles it has failed again 6 months after the last replacement, now it is not in warranty, so I'm out $6,000 dollars. Why they keep failing, is uncertain, but I now have a 4 year warranty on the motor, if they have to put a new one in every 6 months, no cost to me, at least for 4 years. The warranty is transferable when I sell the car. I also just had my first brake job, and new rotors $1600 for that work at 206,000 miles, that is pretty incredible. I really love my car, and ready to move up to the Cybertruck, I waited only 2 days from the unveiling of the truck, and I'm in position number 118,000 range, probably be next year for that.
I work on cars in my friends shop that deals with all ICE cars. The 6k for a motor with a 50K warranty is about the same as some rebuilt motors for SUV's and sports sedan cars. As Mike Tubbs stated add in all the other issues with ICE and most people will see it's a pretty decent deal.
Yep, but once you replace the motor you do not fear to have a 20k$ battery replacement coming.
A model S from 2015 is currently worth around 25k$, so the risk of having a 20k$ battery replacement makes it hard to justify still investing money in it.
And Musk also promised the price would go down, but it hasn't happened, replacement pack are still so expensive.
@@tiloalo better to have non-Tesla repair shop change the battery if your warranty expired. In Lithuania I heard a guy got an 85 replacement pack for 10k (I'm guessing donor car) and he sold the old pack for 7k (can be used for home backup and other uses). Usually only a single module fails but you can't put in another module because you need it to be extremely similarly balanced to the rest of the pack. That's why for Tesla these repairs should be MUCH cheaper - they have many modules and could probably find a matching module to replace instead of pack.
@MrSteror 3k labor to take apart a pack, repair it, take the old one out, put the new one in, and offer a warranty on top seems extremely unlikely.
I know a single module usually fails, the issue is that labor and replacement of one module is around 5-6k, and your risk having another module failing at any time...
@tiloalo Eastern Europe and no warranty makes it cheap, I guess.
I think it's more relevant to compare to ICE engine failure where you have to replace the engine after a certain number of miles driven. Much like the Model S, you can figure hard acceleration will put more stress on a motor, just like hard accel will blow out a Dodge Charger engine sooner. Also, you have to look at the interim costs of motor problems before replacement, such as blown head gaskets, leaks, maintenance costs, etc. that you don't have on a Tesla. That $6000 begins to look like a bargain.
Exactly 💯... The interim cost of ICE vehicles is the biggest issue, especially after the basic warranty runs out... Transmission issues are also costly, and those check engine lights!!! My MB had multiple issues with the Turbos luckily I had the extended warranty to cover it.
@@Teddy_M85 I had a 2001 Pontiac Grand Am GT that blew head gaskets twice, replaced a Cat converter, replaced the ignition twice (plus recall), all out of warranty. One year I spent $7000 in repairs on that car. I got 190,000 miles out of it after 17 years, but bought the Tesla Model 3 after I would have spent $2000 inc. labor on a new torque convertor for the transmission. All these items do not exist on an EV. Have never looked back...it's funny at the local bar there is someone always bitching about some repair on their car, I just smile. Look at it this way, when was the last time you replaced your electric house fan?
Replacement or engine rebuild*
@@miketubbs1198 mine started seizing and would wave back and forth after 2 years personally...
Wouldnt*
I’ve been through two rear drive units in 12 months in my 2017 p100d model x. Less than 10 launches on the street, mostly highway driving. Also had a Battery replacement in that time, 3 failed struts, failed sway bar, failed axles front and rear.
Still my favorite car. My wife’s model x has had no failures
thanks for putting together this information. My 2021 Model 3 LR with 13.5k miles just lost the rear motor only 1 year and 7 month into ownership.
Like the new intro, but miss your old map art background. Love having you making Tesla content regularly again.
Thank you. I have them, just need to hang the pictures.
Scatter plot of manufacturer date vs mileage failure
For Model S/X with large drive unit (And Toyota/Mercedes with this motor!), it is advised to check for the infamous coolant leak annually. See also the channel of for example QC Charge for how to do this. When out of warranty, you could also rebuild the motor yourself 🙂A German guy did a million miles and is on his 13th (!) drive unit. So that is an average of ~77k mi per DU for him. Maybe a consequence of the absence of a speed limit on some German highways? Driving style? Who knows.
It is better for all if there are 0 failures. Tesla learns and improves to reduce and eliminate failures. I would like to know what failed and if it could have been repaired.
The leaking PTFE coolant seal in the LDU is still an unsolved problem as far as I know. A mechanical seal would probably have been a better design, but it's way more expensive. Also a weep hole behind the seal would have been better instead of letting a leak flood the inverter or seize the rotor after corroding.
@@diyEVguy I think they need to connect the fratismorphus to the kanutenrod to solve this beguiling problem.
One of my jobs was Sales Engineering of Variable Frequency Drives for 1000 hp and up industrial motor/VFD systems. The very well known USA OEM, had a brilliant engineer who could predict, with astonishing accuracy, just how many times a VFD could accelerate and decelerate a motor before there would be a fatigue failure in the high power MOSFETS due to the thermal expansion and contraction of the semiconductor and connecting elements cause by such swings in current flow. The failure rate of a well designed motor/VFD system would favor the motor with the VFD being the higher failure component. Don't know what or how much thermal dampening Tesla has designed into their electronic drive components but they sure seem to hold up well.
That brilliant engineer must have been looking at reliability data a lot, and found out some Weibull distributions that makes accurate failures predictions possible.
Thank you for taking the time to create this video
I have a 2013 Tesla model S on its original battery with 138,000 miles on it
WOW! This is the first time hearing about motor failure! Heard several stories about battery failures and how costly! Just a reminder! It is a machine. They will all eventually break down!!
Late Jack Rickard reported on this already back in 2014. See also EVTV.
Today was Day one of being a Tesla Owner. 6 Miles from Tesla store in 5 lanes of Traffic. Bam!! Tesla 3 RWD standard-Motor failure. Worst part is my wife was driving alone. I’m just thankful she wasn’t killed by a semi or another vehicle as the Tesla was inoperable suddenly during rush hour.
there is a guy who has a hired tesla company that goes from los Angeles to las Vegas. He goes through an unusual amount of battery packs and motors because of the mileage he goes through. I guess others are racing car drivers, and others are young people who have a need for speed and quick takeoffs. You should eliminate these first as they are exceptions. That then gives you a fair estimate of failures.
Tesloop?
Both my brothers are mechanics with their shops, they say never buy a BMW, Audi or MB out of warranty. Yow will need deep pockets. One of them just replaced a MB motor at $30kUS factory, he found a used one only cost $20kUS for him to do it.
😂😂😂😂 well in other part of the world like here in europe they say the opposite never bay an american brand car like tesla chevrolet Gmc and truth to be told german cars are 100 years ore more car brand old look at the history and you see why the world want the german cars.
@drenkrasniqi6863 I guess he meant an electrical one?
Because a replacement ICE motor is surely not more than 10k€, especially it's easy to find cheap used one.
@@tiloalo
No it was a gas MB
@universeisundernoobligatio3283 price is just insane, I live in Germany, no motor are so expensive. Especially second hand one.
And for a bearing, they'll never replace the entire motor, which in a Tesla SC, they'll always replace the entire thing.
@@tiloalo
Live in Canada those are the prices we pay here for those parts German parts. As my brothers say never buy a BMW, Audi or MB out of warranty as they are high maintenance.
You talk about percentages, which compares each variant against the rest but... How many actual failures occur? 75% of 5 is not a big number. 5 motors out of 500,000 installed is almost an irrelevant number.
those early Tesla Model S's are notorious for having bad motors, new motors are quite a bit better, which shows in zero Model Y and Model 3 failures in your.. quite limited.. data set..
And as said in your previous video.. People having motor failuers,, probably try to find information about this on the internet, and google places your video on top.... So your already limited data set might even be skewed towards participants actually have experience with failed motors.... People with perfectly working Tesla's may never find you... beside nerds and fanboys like me 🙂
I have 25K miles on my S75 purchased new in 2017. My 4 motor failures "drive unit failure", once every 5K miles, were attributed by my service center to the play tolerance in this drive unit being too tight. The current motor, my fifth, apparently has a wider tolerance, which should not throw this error. I expect this one to last 1M miles :)
A German guy did a million miles in his MS and is on his 13th (!) drive unit. So that is an average of ~77k mi per DU for him. I hope you do better. Maybe he is a wild driver...
Might as well play the lottery too
6:18 sample size is low and there is also a selection bias in this survey. Those who have had failure will be sure to fill it out.
I was thinking the same thing.
The feedback so far indicates there is not a selection bias. However, getting more feedback will help benchmark that. Please consider filling out if you’re an owner. Thank you!
Original owner of a 2015 Model S P90D. Here's my story, which happened today (May 21, 2024).
Hello Friends and/or Fellow Tesla Enthusiasts,
I come to you today with electrifyingly bad news. This will happen to you!
Cruising along I5 today in my fully-charged 2015 Tesla Model S P90D with only 45,000 miles on it, I started to notice a faint humming or "milling" sound coming from the wheel area. I had never heard this sound before -- it was a brand new phenomenon with this car and came out of nowhere. The noise was ever so faint, yet definitely detectable. I became curious and decided to test it out -- it would "rev" subtly as I hit the accelerator, and subside as I took my foot off the pedal and coasted, so I knew my ears were not playing tricks on me. Then, all of a sudden, cruising at about 80 mph on the freeway, the screen glitches out, flashes an error message in blood red, and the car completely loses power. I have absolutely no acceleration and can only coast and steer and brake. I tapped the accelerator -- no power. Pumped it hard -- nothing at all. It's "dead in the water", so to speak. At that point, it's a matter of safely getting over to the side of the freeway, but ideally off the freeway entirely and onto a side road where traffic isn't whizzing by at 70+ miles an hour, if at all possible. In my case, I was able to coast all the way over from lane four through moderate traffic to the nearest exit ramp and luckily had a green light at the bottom of the bend, and coasted right into a lot that happened to be within my coasting range. Once at a complete stop, the car was completely undrivable -- a 5000 lb. paper weight. I got it towed to a Tesla service station, where they proceeded to tell me I was the latest victim of the all-too-common rear wheel drive unit failure, and I was free to go talk to a specialist inside about trading it in. Cue the "record scratch" sound.
"Wait, what? Trade it in? Why?"
"Oh, because....here."
He hands me my quote to fix it. It's $7500.
"Holy crap!"
He nods.
"Is this a common thing?"
"Yup. And most likely it will happen again. And probably again after that, in time. But if you do want to replace the drive, it comes with a one-year warranty for parts and labor."
So, in other words, he's basically telling me, two years from now let's say, when (not if) this happens again, it's another $7500 (minimum).
Ya, I'm pretty sure none of us when we enthusiastically bought our Teslas had any notion whatsoever that this is what we were getting into. But this is the reality of the situation.
When it happens to you -- and it will, eventually, according to this specialist with the big "T" on his cap who deals with it everyday -- I hope you're not actually sitting in traffic with no means to get off the road.
As for me, I'm over Tesla. Stuck with it for now, enjoying it while it lasts, will always love the instant torque and quiet ride -- but it comes with too a heavy price on many levels, and my heart has moved on.
I close these thoughts with a famous Thomas Sowell quote: Friends, "there are no solutions, only trade offs."
Good luck to you when this happens, and be safe!
It is interesting that the rate is so low considering the dancing bias. Often in poles like this the pros who have had a problem are almost certain to participate, but those who have had no issue feel no need to provide data.
They aren't surveyors (that's you), they're respondents.
Wow. 300,000. Congrats
I have a 2015 P85DL Model S, my motor failed under warranty at 159,000 miles. It has the original battery with 193,000 miles now and has only degraded 10%.
Which year Model S makes the biggest difference
Just Blew Up my 2023 model S Long Range Front motor - 1002 Miles on the odometer - apparent fluid /lubricant leak then it shredded itself
It seems quite strange that the motor failures seem dependent on the size of the battery. Surely all of the single motor variants are using exactly the same motors. I could see that perhaps the Performance variants might have slightly different motors. And with the P85D, are you correcting for which motor is being replaced? I believe the front and rear motors are different on those, certainly with current models they are different.
Make sense to me. The bigger the battery, the motor work harder to gain the same speed with smaller battery pack. Because the bigger the battery, the more the weight, and the motor need more power to spin.
Tesla model y performance . Just took delivery in April . My Tesla just satalled on freeway total system failure , any thoughts . Did I get a lemon?
What happens next? Would I get a new one or they just fix this one ?
My 2016 model s 70 is at the SS after starting the miling noise and the dashboard message of reduced power at 87500 miles.
I just bought a used 2018 X 100D with only 51k miles. Drove it home and immediately had a front drive unit failure!! Ugh..... hoping just a fluke. Luckily covered by warrantee
i don't have a Tesla. I have a Lexus RX 400h. I have 224k and have not had to replace electric motors or battery pack. Each electric motor brand new is $ 10k.
7.6% motor failure seens very high, so much for the motor lasting 1 millions miles...
And scary thing is that once the 8 years are over, tesla let you pay it in full. Other maker will usually take a big part of the cost if the car was serviced properly and the mileage is under 120k miles.
did your survey 👍
Awesomen thank you!
Percentage figures are almost pointless, You need to come up with actual failure numbers.
I filled in the survey.
Thank you Hans!
You don’t have the LFP M3
The methodology is flawed. This would never be publishable in a scientific journal. The problem is not only sample size, but mainly biased sample collection. By soliciting responses you select for respondents that want to share specific experiences (motor failure). The right methodology would be to approach random Tesla owners and let them fill out a questionnaire that also includes motor failure. That way you get an unbiased sample.
500,200 miles on my Escape Hybrid gasoline engine.
Wonder what fails on the Tesla motors. FETs or mechanical issues?
Mostly the rotor that carries current, destroying the bearing
And coolant leak into the motor and other components
The real issue is just how dangerous these sudden unpredictable LDU failures are!!! Today is June 8, 2023. My 2013 P85 (not performance) RWD sedan suddenly stopped moving and had a fluid leak, probably coolant, with no preceding warning at all, no noises, no dash error messages, nothing. Obviously out of warranty. No prior known LDU failure. LDU stands for large drive unit. This unit has an inverter in it and a control board. The internet reports that a faulty coolant seal fails, sending coolant onto electric parts, and frying them, which causes LDU to fail. No $ consideration from Tesla. Cost to repair $7600. Tesla tech told me, "No way to prevent." No preventive maintenance program for this failure from Tesla.
Many Teslas of all kinds have LDU, not all, but many. Problem prevalent with S model, but also seen in other models. No reliable engineering solution offered by Tesla even after 10 years.. Many with replacement units still had the problem recur. My repair was variant T. So Tesla is still trying to find a solution to this problem. Elon, help me with the cost of this repair!!
Beyond the cost of the repair, can you imagine total loss of engine power in the middle of a high speed freeway. This is dangerous beyond belief.
happened to me today, read my story above
Not only sample size not big enough, it is also highly biased as people who respond are generally people who have had problems. So complete BS.
Please never ever use a pie chart again. It's nightmare to read it. A sorted bar chart is a much better choice.
And it's not only my opinion, it's what visualization professionals say in their books and studies
No, but our 2018 X needs a new battery at 16K miles and our 2015 85D needed a new battery at 165K miles. Both covered under warranty. No problems with our Y yet.
I have a 2017 model X 90D, and have 171K miles on it. No problems yet. I do have about 13.5% battery degradation.
@@yingnyang2889 Our S was at about 12% degradation when it crashed. It happened all of sudden.
@@rogerheuckeroth7456 I’ve been watching y degradation fairly close and measure it about every 5/6 months With this latest download OTA my range went up by 3 miles.
Too bad about your S, did you have unlimited mileage and charging?
@@yingnyang2889 Yes, had unlimited Supercharging on my Model S, and I handed it down to my son a couple years ago. He lives in the barracks at Camp Pendleton, and they won't let him charge anywhere on base. So, he almost exclusively supercharges. However, he now only charges to 80% hoping that the new battery will last him a long time to come. I did not see any increase in range after the last update on my Y. I charge to 90% and that varies from 229 to 235 miles. The last time I charged to 100% it was 259 miles. I have one of the first Model Ys to role off the production line. #413
@@yingnyang2889do you supercharge?
Is the only failure points for a motor would be the bearings. In an EV, the bearings and the gearbox.
Rad (new to me) intro. If the failure rate is that high, how will they ever make a 1m mile vehicle? Pretty surprising to me that motor failure is anywhere near pack replacement rate. What about the motor fails? Bearings? Couldn't that be fixed pretty easily?
Interesting topic, thanks for the video.
racing will do it
My 2023 M-3 inverter failed @9100 miles
This is the main prob I heard from actual owners
yukkk.... opening tune!
Sample size 198 😂😂😂😂 are you kidding.
It's a RUclips video. . . .
👍🏽
I bet the next gen motors will last 500k- 1 million miles
Strange that 4 and 5 times motor replaced
Must have been a bad lot number
All data is self reported. That seems unlikely, and I'd posit is either a mistake or intentionally misleading
It could be down to the driver e.g. liking to burn rubber. Like how some manual ICE car drivers burn through clutches 5 times faster than normal, irrespective of what car they are driving.
I'm not saying that that is the cause, just we can't easily tell whether or not high failure rate outliers are caused by manufacturing or not.
Likely Gordon Johnson reporting in. 🤪
Some of the earlier model s had their motor replaced 4 or 5 times until they got the new version with ceramic bearing or grounding ring
2013 Model S P85, motor failed at 130,000 miles.
How did it fail?
Hi Sean... Thank you for this data. I am a retired automotive engineering executive; with these high failure rates we would be running crazy trying to find the cause for such high failure rates and initiate countermeasures. For example, Toyota ICEs whole car failure rates would not exceed a 1.5% failure during warranty period, Lexus would be under 1% full car warranty and some other smaller car companies may be above 2% or slightly higher. I was totally shocked at the numbers you presented. How long could Tesla hold on with this massively high failure rates. Thanks again for presenting this data. Leo
He just said it was an open survey of 270 people
Whiners and upset people complain thus it’s a skewed data set by far
There is no way the entire fleet of teslas are running a failure rate that high. Pure and simple
Yes that is a good question. Tesla has become very efficient in swapping faulty drive units for a new / "rebuilt" one, so the customer does not need to wait for a rebuild.