How to Record Heavy Drums Part 8 - ROOM MICS | SpectreSoundStudios TUTORIAL
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- Опубликовано: 3 ноя 2024
- Apex 210 Ribbon Mic: amzn.to/1X9LpCh
Nady RSM-2 Ribbon Mic: amzn.to/1PUCYoB
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The last episode of the "How to Record Heavy Drums" Series... taking a look at the one thing that's been a real challenge for me to get right: ROOM MICS. These can add depth and ambiance to a drum mix, and are critical for the final balance.
Thanks for having the balls to support the apex mics, so many base their opinion on brand not sound.
Most of the other stuff Apex makes is pretty shitty.
+SpectreSoundStudios shitty as in "you get what you pay for" or shitty as in mesa cabclone?
+shredfreak83 The latter. My dad "inherited" (was given) some of their condenser mics ($300ish each when new) and some of their drum mics, and I'm confident I could buy better mics at walmart for $20.
For all the German viewers: The mic is available at Thomann as "the t.bone RB500" for 99 € and there are even modding guides online to "tune" the ribbon, replace the audio transformer... for 99 € it definitely is something for DIYlers and people who generally like the idea of experimenting. Can't do anything wrong for this little money.
1:04 , Looking at the blank space on the waveform... I imagine a long, awkward staring contest that got edited out
+HalfManHalfDuck or moment to look at script or something of that sort
CUT!
As someone who has just gotten into recording live drums, I'm floored by the results you're showing off here. Room mics appear to be the great revelation I've been after. Thank you!!!
when it comes to drum recording, This is definitely where the fun begins.
Recently discovered using mid-side technique on room mics and holy shit. Changed my life forever. Especially if you want that sort of larger-than-life sound. Have a pair of Distressors (or whatever you've got) obliterate them, bring up the fader to taste.
It's so damn nice to finally have a detailed explanation of setting up room mics. I've been screwing around in the dark trying to figure out how to set up good room mics for the better part of 3 years now.
Thanks so *Damn* much for this, Glenn!
It's amazing to hear how the full mix sounds way more/better/fuller than the sum of the parts.
Wonderful, thank you so much.
This really helped my engineer with his set up.
You are amazing at what you do.
Just picked up the last two Apex 210s in the city - thanks for the tip Glenn; these will be going to good use!
You should also try pointing your room mics at the wall opposite your drums, generally you can fake a bigger room by doing that
+Drewsif Stalin I was going to point that out, but you got it sir !!!!!!
You forgot these mics got the figure of eight polar pattern. Pointing them at the opposite walls will also point the mics directly at the kit.
This is not an x/y setup it's actually a Blumlien pair due to the figure 8 pattern. With that being said, the angle is completely normal for the setup. but you should look into blumlien
@@MartinJoviken could you possibly use an acoustic barrier between the Ribbon mics and the kit, allowing you only the non-direct sound? Maybe add a small amount of reverb in the post to add more of an open sound? I'm new to this, genuine question.
As a drummer, I've loved every bit of this series. Thanks to you, I'll be able to start a RUclips channel for my drum covers AND record myself when my band practices to help improve my playing even further.
Can't wait for the mixing series!
Awesome Glen. Thanks again. Really looking forward to the mixing tutorials.
Wow, I never realized how important room mics are for a drum mix.
Holy shit... It's like the moment you turn on the room mic it goes from sounding like a drum machine to sounding like a Led Zeppelin Live recording. Fucking huge.
Having no access to a real drummer has left me using samples since I started recording, but every time I watch one of these videos I learn something new that helps me augment my sequenced drum sound to get it closer to the sound in my head. Everyone, real drummers, engineers, and home-studio-sample-drums-guys, EVERYONE, should watch this series.
Even though I don't get to record metal very much, the techniques that you've shared on this channel have helped me get significantly better live drums. I find myself using samples less and less to get the sound I want. Thanks for the videos and keep up the good work!
Great vid Glen, I am eager to see the next videos about drum mixing. Keep it metal !
I've always been a big fan of your videos for the education and comedy, aswell as your audio work. always keep it up man!
Glen you are a bad ass engineer and one of heros dude! You deserve to record some big bands dude!
One of the best tones for drums i've heard is on this channel
Dude, you are awesome. Thank you so much for the mic recommendations.
Very interesting to see how this process comes together. Love the vids, cheers!
That kit sounds fucking amazing, Glen, and that's coming from a guitarist! Keep up the good work because I love how fun but concise these instructional videos are!
Amazing sounding drums.
If you're not using or not owning 8-pattern mics but cardioid ones, another good method to capture mainly reflected sound is aiming them away from the drum kit (i.e. with the "back" towards the drums). Varying angle and mic-to-mic distance will influence the stereo spread of the resulting room sound. But I guess you'd at least need a medium sized room for this technique to receive good results.
Also, manually adding a delay of a few milliseconds to your room signal can help make it sound bigger. However, the longer the delay, the less loud you can make the room signal, as the delay between direct and room signal becomes more apparent.
I've worked with room mics in lots of mixing projects, but those are honestly the best sounding ones I've ever heard. I'd love to see something tracked by you show up on Mixing Secrets Multitracks some day. :)
Wow. Triggering the gate on the room mic might be one of the smartest ideas I've ever heard on drum recording.
Glen I just watched the whole series of recording heavy drums and I learned so much from them, especially how the rim shot gives a better snare sound. I am a university student and my uni has great choice of microphones for recording so my setup for acoustic drums is:
Snare - sm57
Kick - Shure Beta 52
Since the uni has a pair of md421 I use
High Tom - sm57
Mid-Tom - md421
Low-Tom - md421
Overheads - stereo spread - pair of neumann km184
Since the live room where the drum kit is, instead of room mic/s I use a sm57 between the Overheads, with the same height, which I overcompress in the mix.
Would love to hear what you think about this setup and also from the guys in the comments.
I did the same with guitar. 2 mics + room mic. I pushed up room on solos and got pretty massive sound.
With drums i had no place for room mic, but used bottom mics for every drum to get natural compression. Way to get amazing sound without compressors at all. But was forced to put reverb on drums...
A Pro-studio-owning friend of mine suggested the akg 214's for overheads, loving them! Got stereo pair . . . I'm just playing live cymbals and snare with kick, toms etc from a sampling Roland pad with kick trigger though. Using the overheads for a lot of the snare too with 57 on top. My computers in same room as drums. Set up overheads and measured from snare but not sure if they could be placed better . . Guess it's just keep trying . . . Just thought to share,anyway, again, love the videos, first ones I go to when new ones pop up!
I just bought 2 of these mics, can't wait for the rest of my gear to show up!
5:10 thats the greatest drum sound I have heard in my life
Sounds great glenn, i am very interested to see how you side chain the compressor on the room when the snare isnt played, looking forward to those mixing videos!
Nolly from Periphery is using this technic actually,he's putting the gate on the romm mics buss but as an upward compression and he's triggering it from the snare top...so every time the snare hits the room sounds massive....if glenn got some other technic would be great to know it....chears...
Would be nice to have two videos on mixing, one "the traditional way" and one with the new software solutions. This because not everyone are gonna spend the money on drumatom and drum leveler as soon as it's time to mix live drums. I know I'm gonna get me a good set of hardware (mics, DI boxes, preamps etc.) first before focusing on software, because there's only so much you can fix in the mix and the mixing is way easier if you have good recordings.
can't wait for how to mix heavy drums video
I love how these mics also improve the sound of the toms 😁
Cool stuff. I didn't know you could reverse side chain a compressor to relax the compression instead of activate it. Thanks for the great series!
Nice Mix Glenn.
Hey Glen. Love the show. I'm a fellow Engineer and I have a bit of an unconventional way that I record bass drums and I'm curious to see if you've ever heard of anyone else using this method. Basically, I take off the front head altogether and leave it off, tune up the beater head and place a pillow inside the drum right up against the beater head. On the pedal side instead of using the remo or evans patches that you can get, I cut a square piece of moleskin and place it where the beater will hit. I place the mic inside the bass drum on axis roughly 2-4 inches from the beater head and I usually have to move it around a bit to find the sweet spot. I usually go with whatever beater the drummer wants and hit record. For softer songs I've also taken a hand towel and folded it up and gaff taped it in between the peal and the drum edge on the pedal side. I've gotten really good results with it so far. I'm all about learning new things and I'd be really interested to see what your view on this would be, or if you think I'm nuts altogether. Also I know I'm not the best at describing things so I can also send along a picture if you need me to. Love the show, keep up the awesome work.
Good informative video and I love the Maiden style track, go on make it a full track!! Maybe share the audio and see if any subscribers want to get some vocals on there?
Ribbons, always being figure 8, are called a "Blumlein Pair" in an "X/y" setup (at least the way you did them in the video). Could also be a type of Mid/Side, but it doesn't sound like what you're doing. I'm sure you knew this, but it just irked me.
Really love the sound of these though. Ribbons have been my go to room mics for a while, although I tend to lower the physical height to about a metre off the ground which seems to reduce the amount of cymbal wash a little :)
Hi Glenn! Can you please expand on mixing in a bass guitar in "Mixing Drums" or your Q&A videos? The core question is - Drums and bass are fundamental for any music. Your kick and toms sounded very boomy in that video, so how do you make them work together with bass guitar so well? I guess we all would be glad to hear something about snare definition in a mix and cymbal levels. Thank you for your work!
Hey, Glenn!
I was wondering if you could add another video to the drums series about how to actually record into your DAW once you have everything mic-ed up? I'm running a Focusrite Sapphire 2i2 and was wondering how on earth I'm going to get all those mics into separate tracks on my DAW without, say, having to run through a million takes, each time recording a different set of drums. I'm 18, have pretty much no budget, and am a beginner - working from my bedroom. It's definitely not ideal, and I'm not going to be pumping out Joey Sturgis quality anything, any time soon - I know and accept this. However, I was wondering what your advice would be to getting started and just recording demo tapes, etc. I was thinking that, worst case scenario, I could invest in getting some decent overheads and just using those? Or even samples? I've got quite a lot of good, high quality ones (although I have so much trouble settling on a good snare, no matter the genre haha) that I bought with my DAW. Ty
Superb. Cheers Glen
I want to see drum mixing!! A nice in depth and long video
Hah I was gonna ask you to make a series about how to mix heavy drums but yeah you were a step ahead. Thanks for the awesome tips! Gives me a lot more motivation to improve my skills as a recording nerd
Hey Glen ! Nice channel thank you ! I'm surprised you talked about overheads and room mics without talking about phase relationship.. (might be a subject for another video) ;) Anyway, it's a logical choice to go with ribbon mics in a small room since they tend to have softer HF response which will mask some of the room defects. Also want to point out that those apex 210 are figure of eight mics and in an Blumlein configuration, they will pick up all around them and not just the reflexion from the wall.. Keep up the good work !
What's that black bean on top of the revv??? I thought they were not allowed in your studio...
Try to put some shield between drums and room mics. It cuts direct sound from the kit and makes even small room sound bigger. It takes time to find the right size and place for it but result can be exceptional. Or can't. Depends. But worth to try I suppose. Even a 4x12 closed guitar cab works as starting point.
I just played this video jumping between parts:
0:00 "Hey everybody, it's been"
0:30 "a pain in the ass"
Great series Glen!
Best one yet!
Cool. I just had a drum session...the only mic i left behind was my apex 210! Don't know why, thought it wouldn't find a use as it would get destroyed inches from of a kick or even snare...But good tip.
I only have one though, but also have heard you can face the null towards the kit, to give more impression of a bigger room (then maybe delay the mics).
But you used them in xy, which i guess is actually a blumein pair...But you say don't point at the kit, yet sound will be coming from all around like a disc or torus, or are there still directions its more sensitive?. I suppose there's still a null about where the lead was but i couldn't see in your video that you'd done this.
Have tried a mid / side setup? It doesn't make it sound like a massive hall but it does add very nice depth, collapses to mono easily and is less susceptable to nasty reflections as you don't need to get as close to walls as you do with spaced room mics
Huh, nice tip, wouldn't of thought to trigger the snare like that . . still haven't gotten into too much of that side chaining/triggering etc. wish you played more of the room miss alone to hear what it's doing though. Love the videos! Looking forward to more mixing of everything in the whole track etc
thanks for the video glenn. i actually tried this on my V-Drum TD-30K, i moved the ambience mic, from the top, middle and low position just to see what difference it makes. Before this, i just maxed out everything from reverb, ambience and the mics on all my drums, and the results are just bunch of saturated and shitty tones.
I'm glad i found your drum tutorial series :)
in all honesty, for a room mic, if they still make it, the Blue Baby Bottle is a REALLY good room mic, especially pointed away from the kit towards the wall. i've used it many times and it adds a really subtle but noticeable room tone and it just makes my kit sound SO much bigger
Ribbons are AWESOME for Room Mics. XY /Blumlein array, aimed at walls or corners behind the kit, and you'll get a really nice room sound... Ribbons are really great for grabbing the sound of cymbals in the room, too, because of the way they handle the top end, which is "smoother" than condensers. Ribbons do generally need a beefy preamp though; traditionally they are much lower in output than condensers ( and most dynamics) are, so you'll need enough gain to have them sound at their optimum ( 65 db is considered minimum ...but more like 70-75db is preferred).Ribbons are also great for miking guitar amps too! Used as an additional mic, backed off in the room from the amp by a 3-5 feet or so... with a dynamic mic ( 57/58/421/409) that's placed in-tight against the cab... great tone. Although, the success of this is all HUGELY dependent on the sound of your room, too ( and your amp, speakers and drums). A bad-sounding room, regardless of how nice the microphones or preamps are, will always equal a bad sound.
I remember once when mixing a song from band practise. I got to the point where i thought "hey, gating/cutting the vocal mic would probably be a great idea, because it's not being used all the time". When I applied the gate, I was shocked at how bad the drums suddenly sounded. It was an SM58, which is not known for it's great sound, but it made the difference between "okay" and "good". Room mics are the tits...
I started testing a method that I put a MB Compressor on the room mic and side chain the 0-5000Hz to the snare, and it seems to work pretty well, this way the cymbals are consistent (mostly) but the snare ambiance is only there when the snare is actually played :D
thoughts on using reverb and/or impulse responses instead of room mics? also, maybe a demo of then cheap cad drum mics would be good. Cheers from mexico glen
We have two ribbon mics that we are thinking about putting each facing a corner on the long wall behind the drums. will we get phase issues in a tiny room being bi directional? room is like 8 x 12.
Ps... High drum throne, hi hat distance and the rim shot tip...Epic! Changed my life! :)
Hey Glenn, you should do a video on the different mic types and their uses and/or purposes
Nice bass pod ya got up there!
Why is there a sub rumbling thing going on between the kicks in the Iron Maiden demo?
And btw, I'm always amazed by how good the intro and outro song sound!!! God Damn that's huge!!! And that chunkiness on the guitars that you can't hear anywhere these days. Nice!
Isn't that a Blumlein mic array, not X/Y? Good video though.
+Andrew Menzak yep, he failed to mention that the null of the figure 8 pattern is pointed directly at the kit, which also helps get the reflections instead of the direct sound. Figure 8 is awesome! Great video!
+Andrew Menzak I was just about to post the same! I love how Blumlein sounds
+Andrew Menzak exactly what i was about to say
+Seth Mcfarland But its not, because another mic is in that null. Unless it was all turned sideways (so the plug side faced the kit). But good tip if you use only one at least its good to have the kit in the null to pick up only reflections.... also yeh its a blumein pair, but that is the same as 'figure 8s in xy' right?
That was very cool to see how the difference microphones pick up the signals of the drums, now with this knowledge I can hear it in the Eagle's Landing Mix. Am I right or wrong? I feel all these difference series have helped my Ear training and knowledge of recording
I have a KSM32 that I use as a room mic and I'm good to go. I also use maserati drum plugins in waves.
You weren't doing XY stereo pair, you were doing Blumlein Stereo Pair. Have you tried doing MS pair for your room tone? Blumlein and MS are my favourite room mic techniques. I use an apex 460 tube mic and an audio technica at2020 for my MS pairing. I love apex mics even though they are looked down upon.
Love this video. I'm looking into buying an Apex 210 but I'm seeing that it's a figure 8 pattern mike - so it picks up on both sides, right? With that could you use just one and do the old duplicate-the-track-and-flip-the-phase trick?
One thing to note. If you are going to use ribbons for room mics, be aware that they are naturally biriectional. So though you are pointing to capture the ambience of the drums, equal importance must be given to what is not being captured as these mics will mainly reject from the sides.
I must correct you, Glenn, about the mic placement: It's not XY, but Blemlein. Similar yet different. This mic placement you use is actually the first stereo mic placement, invented by Blumlein and named after him. It's when you place two ribbon mics at the same spot, with 90 degrees between them, and their center point pointed at the desired source (The lobes of the figure 8 is pointed 45 degrees from the source)..
Nice Job Glenn
How would those ribbons do in a 3 or 4 mic setup? They really seem to sound good on the snare from a distance, but what about an SM7 or a D6 on the kick and a stereo pair of those as overheads? Or kick, overheads, and a dynamic on snare?
sounds great,room mics can be a pain in the ass though/i have the mxl r144 and mxl 860,im gonna try them both again,i've been going with just the r144 lately though
Try delaying the room mics. It works really well especially in smaller rooms that still sound pretty good. Delay them about 20-35ms to give them a little separation from the close mics and it works really well. Using boundary mics, Pzms, or just placing the room mics on the floor will also help clean up early reflections.
Sounds like a good idea!
Actually, really great advice with the delay. Very cool. Now to try to find some pzm mics!
I interned for a very famous engineer who used this method on nearly every session for his room mic setup. Usually using omni mics placed on the floor, but occasionally with actual pzms. Omni mics placed on a hard surface will act much the same as pzm mics.
Of course actual PZMs are cool because you can tape then to walls or the ceiling.
I watch almost all your videos, so thanks for all you do. BTW, that a Blumlein pair, not XY, which uses cardioid mics. Don't overlook the Cascade Victor mics. I've used them on guitar and bass with great success too!
Hey Glenn, I´m a fan of 80´s "Hair Metal". I liked the drum sound back then, big huge boom snare sound! :)
Nowadays the kick is always very loud and the snare, to my ears, has a too dry tone without that big punch, that can break down a bunker. Just like the Mötley Crüe Girls, Girls; Girls snare sound. What´s your opinion on that? Would like to here that.
Your videos are great! Keep rockin´!
Cheers; Mika
hey Glenn, what's your opinion about the TASCAM DP 32 SD?
Back in the days(stone age) i used a TASCAM PORTA 04,then the 424 mk2, and today a FOSTEX MR-8 mk2 , did some lo-fi demos with it.
In the band i played some years ago the main dude had a TASCAM 2488 but he wasn't able to handle it right,guess why hahahah he was also the fucking bass player in the band and i had no chance to try out the TASCAM,then the CD came out and yes the sound was thin, no bottom, no punch just a thin fart, the drums, the guitars everything sounded crap
Today with the interfaces,DAW etc i have no clue about what to use,i mean recording with an interface and DAW or going for a TASCAM DP 32 SD?
best regards
Dan
nice room sound have you tried putting a delay on the ambient mics? if so i would be very interested to hear how that sounds
Hey Glen! I'm looking into recording drums for the first time and am currently investing in some mics for the job. My budget only allows for a kick, snare, overheads and a room mic. Would a mono room mic do the job well or should I save up for a pair of mics?
Thanks and fuck you \m/
Hey Glenn.
In the studio where my band rehearse the soundcard only has 4 inputs. This makes it tricky to record drums, since we can't mic up the whole set. It' very hit and miss - sometimes it's acceptable, sometimes awfull and very rarely amazing. can you give some pointers as to what to use? We normaly go Kick(Beta52a), Snare(SM57), Hi-hat/overhead and Ride/overhead(Both Sennheiser E614). Is there a better configuration? Should we invest in a new mic?
Changing the converter is not an option. 4 channels is what we have.
Thanks.
Room mics are awesome. I always go for a Rode K2 if theres on available for me
Yo can someone explain exactly how Glenn does that technique he explains at the end? Compresses the room mics, then by side chaining the snare, he opens up the room mics to capture the sustain of the snare without getting a ton of cymbal wash as well. Ive been messing around in reaper side chaining the snare to the room compressor, obviously I'm missing something. Im pretty new to engineering especially side chaining, help on this technique would be much appreciated, thanks!
Great vid as always. Just an aside: the kickdrum sounds a little driven/phumpy. Is this standard fare in recorded metal drums?
Question about the room Mic Cymbal wash... Would be be a good Idea to cut everything around 6k off ? so none of the highs are really coming are being played through the Rooms mics on the track ?
Hi Glen, so would you really rate those ribbons ? I am planing on buying some partly based on your good word :) Looking for a good option as I need more choices in my studio. Also any clone mic pre's your recommend ?
Setting up figure 8 mins like that is called a Blumlein Array. Right? XY is done with cardioid mics.
Have you tried the room placement where you tie the bassist to a chair in the corner and stick an SM58 in his mouth?
Love these vids they rock!!!
You can get them here in the Eu as the t.bone RB 500 at Thomann 😊
I just clicked on the link for the Nady on Amazon and they don't carry it. Same with musicians friend. Where can I get the nady? What do you mean by "american version" of the Apex? The Apex is not available in the USA?
I have an off topic question for you. I plan to record drums for a full length album. Quality aside, I'm recording to a PC using Cubase. I feel like it would be smart to record all takes of all songs on one file. This way I can provide the same mix tweaks to each final track without having to deal with 12 separate files. Last time I did this, I ran into a serious problem when I started screwing with click tempo for one song and it obliterated the match-up of all the other songs. I know now that I can use a tempo track to change tempo from song to song, but before I find another heartbreaking fail in my method, I thought I would ask a professional. 12 separate files and countless hours of tweaks? Or 1 big file and hope something doesn't go wrong? Maybe record each song's drums to individual files and then export them all raw to 1 file and then mix? What do you do?
The mic technique you show in the video is called Blumlein, not XY. If you're using bidirectional mics the effect is really different from a pair of cardioids in XY ;)
+FedericoStivan They may be set to figure 8? At least, that's how I do mid-side micing (which I think is what Glenn is trying to do... but don't quote me on that).
+Chris McCartney they are ribbons mics...they are always figure 8 (I know only the beyerdynamic m160 that is a ribbon and it's hypercardioid).
MS it's another technique where the Mid mic must be directional (cardioid,hyper...) and needs "processing" on the Side mic (two channels from the same mic, pan and phase invert on the R channel). Blumlein doesn't needs "processing" it's like XY but with figure 8 mics, you can find more about it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blumlein_Pair
Is that a POD HD we see on the amp head? If it is, I'd love to hear your opinion on that one compared to axe fx or the other line 6 stuff
Possibly a silly question, but could I possibly get away with recording metal/hard rock drums outside in a backyard instead of indoors? And say have the room mics pointed to the walls on the opposite side of the backyard?
Wait what is he using for the room mics? He's dropping the volume 7db when the snare isn't being played? So the snare mic is triggering the effect on the room mics, but what effect? A compressor would lower the volume on trigger, so he's using an expander? A gate? Anyone know?
Hi Glenn, I'm from Italy and i don't understand english so well.
So you have a compression on room mics triggered by snare? So when snare sounds room mics are lowered down by 7db?
Or is it the opposite (increasing room levels when snare is played)?
tx
could you please explain how you get the room mics to open using a trigger on the snare? cant seem to figure it out cheers
I see a pod in the background.. Fearless gear review?