This is for arbitrage trading where the traders exploit the price difference between Chicago and New York markets. If the price of an option or futures contract goes up by an increment in New York, the price in Chicago will move there as well but it will take a brief moment for the change to propagate through the internet. The arbitrage traders exploit that lag by buying at the Chicago price and simultaneously selling at the New York price. If you do that in sizeable trades and do it a lot one can make low risk profits. This of course is a commercial operation and therefore is an illegal use of the spectrum. I'd like to see the FCC focus on these stations to get them shut down.
Just for the interested, the middle dip suggests that it's a double side band suppressed carrier signal. The may xmit different data in each sideband. Quite efficient.
What a gorgeous radio! WOW! Back in the late 70s I had a Yaesu base. I can't remember the model number now, but I do regret having to sell that when I made a major change in my life and had to "lighten" my load. LOL Back then, I had a Commodore 64 computer and was able to design an interface to the radio and develop software to turn morse code into text. That was a fun project.
The differences in latency between these types of transmissions isn't in the hundreds of ms, it's a difference of only about 2-20ms, and that is enough to be profitable for high speed trading.
Crazy. I haven't heard/seen them yet. Now I know where to look... I don't have a problem with them doing it, as long as they're respectful users of the RF spectrum, like we hams try to be.
I first heard these a month or so ago here in southwestern Ontario. I sent an email to the local University engineering faculty to see if they were doing any experiments but they didn't respond. The signal was very strong so I assumed they were local. Thanks for the clarification. Would like to learn more. Because of the bandwidth they occupy and the strength, I find them to be disruptive. They do tend to land on frequencies that contain utility signals, so as an SWL I oppose them. They also seem to frequency hop. I've heard them around 10.8 MHz, 13.9 MHz and 14.5 MHz.
Cool stuff, you'd think this would have been a thing before now...Nice to see new uses of the shortwave bands as it is a untapped resource in this day of the internet and goes to and show radio can still be important. I do wonder about how its done and the data throughput, etc. It would be even cooler if some of this tech could be used by HAMs. Hopefully it doesn't take over all the SW bands in the future.
For efficient use of the channel there generally will be “scrambling” which doesn’t necessarily mean encrypting but to avoid long periods of similar symbols, improve error detection, and synchronizing
OTHR is very much a big interference producer as it just blasts out sounders looking for MUF and then fires up with vigor when it finds a suitable frequency. And in the southern latitudes, we have a huge problem with pirates in certain nations using any frequency they like for chatter. Many of the MWARA air frequencies in the 35m 8Mhz allocations have to contend with indiscriminate chatter +/- 1kHz away. Have not had any issue with HF traders so far, but now I know what to look for thanks Gilles!
many transmitter sites we hear are located near Chicago and other major eastern cities with large financial centers... Between these and the multitudes of OTH radars, many of the MARS/CFARS channels are heavily interfered with.
Most are located around the city of Aurora, IL. They are all licensed under FCC experimental licenses, so can be found in the public database. There are a few Canadian HFT signals around, also registered in Canada's Spectrum Management Agency, also have most of their TX facilities listed too.
Been around for a while now and there was FCC hearings as ARRL was scared of these creating interference on ham bands. It is known to be financial trading stations
Wow. The FinGeeks are using Microwave Relay to place trades fasted than those on wires in order to arbitrage the price difference. Sorry to repeat your findings but it’s a wild time to be alive. Never knew about it until now!
If I'm not mistaken they use microwave transmitters similar to the ones AT&T long lines used pre-fiber optic. I would be interested to see some one in the hobby successfully decode one. It would be interesting.
No way this is related to HFT. The bandwidth is too small. On a 40khz bandwidth you would only get around 100kbps, which means it would take tens of milliseconds for a single TCP packet to be transmitted
100kbps is more than enough, given that the average order message is about 100bytes. Depending on the HFT platform / network optimization, the packet will start being sent before the entire frame is received, i.e., cut through. Our platforms operate single digit microseconds with the FPGA version in 600 nanoseconds and can send over a 1 million order messages in that period, given enough bandwidth. It all comes down to how the app & network are optimized. In a nutshell, 100kbps is plenty. By stat arbing, it is essentially free money or as close to with minimal risk - you just need deep pockets for the technology.
I'd hazard I guess that they most likely are. And even if they weren't, the modulation looks like sth highly custom with no decoders to get a hold of easily...
Not if it's a one-time pad. Oddly this seems like the perfect use case for one time pads. They can send the pads over the internet and they need speed. A one time pad only needs 1 CPU instruction(xor).
Were you were picking up these transmissions around 2pm EST (19:00 UTC)? If so, it may be a coincidence, but the Dow Jones and the S&P both had a sudden drop right around that moment.
Don't be silly, that's just wishful thinking. It doesn't interfere so nothing will happen. Stop hoping for interference to pop up so that the FCC will do something. It's embarrassing.
I find it quaint that people talk about illegal activities and FCC bans. We are in a post-rule-of-law world where money wins every time. I don’t suspect amateur radio bands are that lucrative to worry about, but good luck displacing money. But I could be mistaken.
Might take more than a phone app to decipher the encryption... Once had a broker convince me to invest in revolving doors and paper towels - before I could turn around, my money was wiped out😆
I must admit, I initially assumed this video was content generated by an AI that convolved high frequency trading and high frequency radio... so there is a connection between these now?
So, besides identifying what is causing the noise, of what use it it us? How do we decode/decrypt the signal? I bet there must be some smart computer hackers out there that can break it.
At least I hope now, that some comercial entity dealing with money uses this spectrum someone will clean all this chinese unintentional transmitters (leds, swichmode psus, etc) from the spectrum
Are they legal? How do you know they are trading related? (Cite the source please). I dont see evidemce of data, only an unmodulatwd sawtooth waveform.
Trading stations...why couldn't they just use all those sophisticated giga hertz satellite links instead of exploiting the HF which is the only aesthetic way for us poor hams to ragchew around the world? We gotta jam them out of the HF!
No, you're right, we should leave them entirely open so you can talk in Morse Code with some random person across the world. That is a much better use of this frequency instead of making money.
What if those “large corporations” are actually benefiting individuals? Why should the “publc airwaves” -that is, those outside of the ham bands-not be allocated for SOME commercial use? English-speaking shortwave seems to be waning, anyway, in terms of variety of content. I think you just have a grudge against capitalism and the corporate system.
That's what cell phone companies do. Would you like your phone to stop working? What you are saying is akin to saying commercial vehicles shouldn't be on public roads.
Public airwaves are used for tons of companies, large and small, to use to make money. Think of your cell phones, WISPs, pager systems, etc etc etc. I’m not a fan of these either, but they’re licensed and allocated, so there isn’t a lot of room to complain.
It's a pity that radio amateurs are limited in bandwidth of transmission. We are not allowed to use more than smallband like 6 kHz. Why not using more and transmit all information in half a second unlike ft8 for a minute.
Seems you don't know how FT8 works as it isn't slow because of the lack of bandwidth. It is designed that way. Datamodes like PACTOR 4 of VARA HF have much faster speeds within the allowed 3 kHz.
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Wow! If only I had the ability to decode that stuff. I would finally be able to buy that top of the line ICOM transceiver I've been eyeing.
This is for arbitrage trading where the traders exploit the price difference between Chicago and New York markets. If the price of an option or futures contract goes up by an increment in New York, the price in Chicago will move there as well but it will take a brief moment for the change to propagate through the internet. The arbitrage traders exploit that lag by buying at the Chicago price and simultaneously selling at the New York price. If you do that in sizeable trades and do it a lot one can make low risk profits. This of course is a commercial operation and therefore is an illegal use of the spectrum. I'd like to see the FCC focus on these stations to get them shut down.
Just for the interested, the middle dip suggests that it's a double side band suppressed carrier signal. The may xmit different data in each sideband. Quite efficient.
I would guess OFDM, so different data in many carriers across the bandwidth.
It's a long string of psuedo random numbers ofuscating a few bytes of payload.
What a gorgeous radio! WOW!
Back in the late 70s I had a Yaesu base. I can't remember the model number now, but I do regret having to sell that when I made a major change in my life and had to "lighten" my load. LOL
Back then, I had a Commodore 64 computer and was able to design an interface to the radio and develop software to turn morse code into text.
That was a fun project.
The differences in latency between these types of transmissions isn't in the hundreds of ms, it's a difference of only about 2-20ms, and that is enough to be profitable for high speed trading.
Crazy. I haven't heard/seen them yet. Now I know where to look... I don't have a problem with them doing it, as long as they're respectful users of the RF spectrum, like we hams try to be.
Interesting and a new one on me. Thanks for posting.
On shortwave? I they were using microwave years ago, but shortwave? That's very low bandwidth. How do you know it's HFT vs. kids playing around?
I first heard these a month or so ago here in southwestern Ontario. I sent an email to the local University engineering faculty to see if they were doing any experiments but they didn't respond. The signal was very strong so I assumed they were local. Thanks for the clarification. Would like to learn more.
Because of the bandwidth they occupy and the strength, I find them to be disruptive. They do tend to land on frequencies that contain utility signals, so as an SWL I oppose them. They also seem to frequency hop. I've heard them around 10.8 MHz, 13.9 MHz and 14.5 MHz.
Nobody put you in charge
You sound like a very smart individual. I find this interesting. Cool stuff.
Cool stuff, you'd think this would have been a thing before now...Nice to see new uses of the shortwave bands as it is a untapped resource in this day of the internet and goes to and show radio can still be important. I do wonder about how its done and the data throughput, etc. It would be even cooler if some of this tech could be used by HAMs. Hopefully it doesn't take over all the SW bands in the future.
That must be some heavy encryption on that, the modulation / encoding sounds so uniform.
or its just idle lol
Definitely encrypted.
For efficient use of the channel there generally will be “scrambling” which doesn’t necessarily mean encrypting but to avoid long periods of similar symbols, improve error detection, and synchronizing
OTHR is very much a big interference producer as it just blasts out sounders looking for MUF and then fires up with vigor when it finds a suitable frequency.
And in the southern latitudes, we have a huge problem with pirates in certain nations using any frequency they like for chatter.
Many of the MWARA air frequencies in the 35m 8Mhz allocations have to contend with indiscriminate chatter +/- 1kHz away.
Have not had any issue with HF traders so far, but now I know what to look for thanks Gilles!
On these examples there is no data, just idle. What do they sound like when actively transmitting information?
many transmitter sites we hear are located near Chicago and other major eastern cities with large financial centers... Between these and the multitudes of OTH radars, many of the MARS/CFARS channels are heavily interfered with.
Most are located around the city of Aurora, IL. They are all licensed under FCC experimental licenses, so can be found in the public database. There are a few Canadian HFT signals around, also registered in Canada's Spectrum Management Agency, also have most of their TX facilities listed too.
Can you cite a source for the claim that this is related to financial trading? Just curious. :)
Been around for a while now and there was FCC hearings as ARRL was scared of these creating interference on ham bands. It is known to be financial trading stations
Any idea what modulation or standard in use? It looks a bit like some sort of QAM but the gap in the middle is odd
Could the gap indicate two sides of the conversation? I.e. packets sent and packets received? Just guessing, i know next to nothing about RF
Wow. The FinGeeks are using Microwave Relay to place trades fasted than those on wires in order to arbitrage the price difference. Sorry to repeat your findings but it’s a wild time to be alive. Never knew about it until now!
If I'm not mistaken they use microwave transmitters similar to the ones AT&T long lines used pre-fiber optic. I would be interested to see some one in the hobby successfully decode one. It would be interesting.
That is a separate and older system that uses microwaves. This is a new thing only approved recently that uses HF transmission frequencies.
Never knew this existed….very interesting.
What was that movie where they built a computer center with a faster connection to the market so they made more money?
Hearing / Seeing this at 1753 UTC seemingly centered on 14516 in Hingham MA
The edge of that signal will be perilously close to our 20m band at the low end.
No way this is related to HFT. The bandwidth is too small. On a 40khz bandwidth you would only get around 100kbps, which means it would take tens of milliseconds for a single TCP packet to be transmitted
Yes it is and has several stations around the world including here in Canada and USA
100kbps is more than enough, given that the average order message is about 100bytes. Depending on the HFT platform / network optimization, the packet will start being sent before the entire frame is received, i.e., cut through. Our platforms operate single digit microseconds with the FPGA version in 600 nanoseconds and can send over a 1 million order messages in that period, given enough bandwidth. It all comes down to how the app & network are optimized. In a nutshell, 100kbps is plenty. By stat arbing, it is essentially free money or as close to with minimal risk - you just need deep pockets for the technology.
do we know where any of the transmitters are located?
Some are from Ontario Canada, there are several sites in the US also and around the world. I am searching for more details
@@OfficialSWLchannelseems like I remember something about Chicago.
Can we decode them?. Just to see what is going on.
Looks random, so probably encrypted
"Buy, buy, buy! Sell, sell, sell!"
Probably not but give it a try
Almost certainly not since they're encrypted.
This is a great question. I hope someone answers it. If the answer is yes, someone could make money writing the software.
First of I’m loving the Yaesu SDR screen 😍 beautiful radio. Are these signals encrypted?
I'd hazard I guess that they most likely are. And even if they weren't, the modulation looks like sth highly custom with no decoders to get a hold of easily...
How did you arrive at the idea that this was related to financial data?
Any chance the signals can be decoded? Are they encrypted?
Encrypted
It's not they can't be decoded, it's just that no one's done it yet. You could be the first!
Not if it's a one-time pad. Oddly this seems like the perfect use case for one time pads. They can send the pads over the internet and they need speed. A one time pad only needs 1 CPU instruction(xor).
@@andrewmurschel2608it likely has end to end encryption Which will not be decryptable in the time that the signals last
Those signals are not what you claim them to be.
Isnt that illegal to use amateur bands for business? And encryption is also illegal.
This is not in an amateur radio band
I am vehemently opposed to any commercial use of public space.
Is there a way to decode what they are transmitting? Or is it encrypted?
"any commercial use of public space"
Broadly interpreted, this man screams at trucks on the highway.
MARS is not ITU/WRTC recognised, it’s a local USA allocation without protection!
Were you were picking up these transmissions around 2pm EST (19:00 UTC)? If so, it may be a coincidence, but the Dow Jones and the S&P both had a sudden drop right around that moment.
Amazing
When it ends up messing up traffic in an aeronautical band or another utility, then something may happen to these transmissions. It’s about safety.
Totally agree.
Don't be silly, that's just wishful thinking. It doesn't interfere so nothing will happen. Stop hoping for interference to pop up so that the FCC will do something. It's embarrassing.
They are licenced by the FCC.
It will never happen.
Pirates are everywhere and no one does anything....🙈
Probably encrypted, but if not, may be interesting trying to decode it.
Encrypted
I find it quaint that people talk about illegal activities and FCC bans. We are in a post-rule-of-law world where money wins every time. I don’t suspect amateur radio bands are that lucrative to worry about, but good luck displacing money. But I could be mistaken.
Might take more than a phone app to decipher the encryption... Once had a broker convince me to invest in revolving doors and paper towels - before I could turn around, my money was wiped out😆
Sure would be a shame if that got jammed
I must admit, I initially assumed this video was content generated by an AI that convolved high frequency trading and high frequency radio... so there is a connection between these now?
So, besides identifying what is causing the noise, of what use it it us? How do we decode/decrypt the signal? I bet there must be some smart computer hackers out there that can break it.
At least I hope now, that some comercial entity dealing with money uses this spectrum someone will clean all this chinese unintentional transmitters (leds, swichmode psus, etc) from the spectrum
low delay than light fibre cable under the sea.
Not sure that’s legal, I don’t think the FCC licenses business HF spectrum anymore
It is legal they have FCC licenses
@ I thought they didn’t issue commercial licenses for HF anymore unless you’re a telecoms company using it as backup infrastructure
And the next step…decode that financial signal! Lol
Next: jamming for market manipulation (vulnerability)
👏
Are they legal?
How do you know they are trading related? (Cite the source please). I dont see evidemce of data, only an unmodulatwd sawtooth waveform.
If they're not licensed they're illegal.
If they're on ham bands they're illegal full stop.
That's above the 20m ham band which stops at 14.350
Trading stations...why couldn't they just use all those sophisticated giga hertz satellite links instead of exploiting the HF which is the only aesthetic way for us poor hams to ragchew around the world? We gotta jam them out of the HF!
Satellites and Internet have latency, several hundred of milliseconds delays, That is the reason Shortwave is used,
Far too slow.
Satellites have much worse latency and higher cost.
Ah, but the real question is, can we decode them? Haha, I bet they're highly encrypted. 😃
Encrypted
This should be banned! The public airwaves should not be used so large corporations can make money on the markets with high frequency trading.
No, you're right, we should leave them entirely open so you can talk in Morse Code with some random person across the world. That is a much better use of this frequency instead of making money.
What if those “large corporations” are actually benefiting individuals? Why should the “publc airwaves” -that is, those outside of the ham bands-not be allocated for SOME commercial use? English-speaking shortwave seems to be waning, anyway, in terms of variety of content. I think you just have a grudge against capitalism and the corporate system.
That's what cell phone companies do. Would you like your phone to stop working? What you are saying is akin to saying commercial vehicles shouldn't be on public roads.
Its main reason the fcc exists. Without them, most bands would be taken up by cell carriers
Public airwaves are used for tons of companies, large and small, to use to make money. Think of your cell phones, WISPs, pager systems, etc etc etc. I’m not a fan of these either, but they’re licensed and allocated, so there isn’t a lot of room to complain.
It's a pity that radio amateurs are limited in bandwidth of transmission. We are not allowed to use more than smallband like 6 kHz. Why not using more and transmit all information in half a second unlike ft8 for a minute.
Seems you don't know how FT8 works as it isn't slow because of the lack of bandwidth. It is designed that way. Datamodes like PACTOR 4 of VARA HF have much faster speeds within the allowed 3 kHz.
Front Runners gonna Front Run