Roland Fryer Refuses to Lie to Black America | Freakonomics Radio | Episode 514
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- Опубликовано: 25 дек 2022
- Roland Fryer, the controversial Harvard economist who is recently back from a suspension, “broke a lot of glass early in my career,” he says. His research on school incentives and police brutality won him acclaim - but also enemies. Now Fryer is taking a hard look at corporate diversity programs. The common thread in his work? “I refuse to not tell the truth.”
This episode was originally published August 31, 2022.
For a full transcript, resources, and more, visit: freak.ws/3CBWBQ9
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It really upsets me that his colleagues advised him to withhold the data that didn't fit the narrative!
And don't doubt for one second that many other academic fields have the same exact culture of conformity.
It's really one set of fields--the sociologically-minded * Studies [Women's Studies, African American Studies] programs are often good examples--attacking other, more quantitative fields like Economics. It's a turf war, and the people who are convinced that what we need is more adjectives won many early rounds before the quants could get organized. It could cost the * Studies professors (like Claudine Gay) a LOT of their relevance if people figured out that Roland Fryer and people like him have quantitative "maps" that we could use to figure out where to allocate resources to fix intergenerational poverty, instead of just talking about it in reverential sad-sack victim culture tones.
Similarly why so much of Glenn Loury's work is largely ignored despite its academic rigor and excellence. No reason to platform heterodox narratives, even if it would help the minority groups we all seek to support, when there is conformity to demand! What was done to Roland Fryer at Harvard is a disgrace.
The climate change scientific community is another closed community. No science is ever settled, that's what makes it science and not a religion. CO2 levels are not nearly as important as they originally thought in determining climate fluctuations, but how do you tell a planet full of people you informed twenty years ago that they would be dead in twenty years that you were most likely wrong. Short answer is, you don't, you double down and hope everyone in the science community plays along even though they know the position they are pushing is maybe a half truth at best.
Virtually all fields have that culture of conformity, especially the tech industry.
It is not many sadly. It is all
This level of honesty is so refreshing that I am gaining some hope for our country.
#seektruth #meathealsus #brainenergy The #carnivorecommunity will give you real hope + health
honesty according to what ??? that's is the difference... to what exactly pls do tell...
@@runoz2839 Honesty according to the data, which is something that is greatly lacking in academia these days. Too many academics come in with preconceived notions based of their belief system, then try to force the data to fit into that system, so they can reinforce their worldview, even if the data directly contradicts it. Roland Fryer doesn't do that, because he's not interested in spreading an agenda. He's interested in actually solving problems and he knows you can't find solutions if you're not even being honest about the problems in the first place.
This is someone who doesn't understand that some people are the second generation off a plantation. 😂😂😂And then he just keeps looking stupid to colleagues. And intelligent to people like you who haven't looked at your states wrongful conviction lawsuits yet for the year.
"I refuse to lie to them!" I wish we all were so stubborn.
I was shocked by the lack of prevalence of this in academia and the deeply subtlety Machiavellian nature of so many there, I thought that was business world thing and that progressive intelligent people wouldn’t allow that to happen but it was disheartening to see.
depends on the lie... data is a lie...
@@rickmacdonald5575 It's rife in academia.
Fryer is what you call an honest man, whether he likes the truth or not. Much respect.
How is he different from Sowell?
@@barryfleming8488he’s younger
He’s very different from Sowell. As much as I respect Sowell for his vast knowledge of history he holds back a lot of information in the form of sofistry for the interests of the people who he works for; ie The Hoover Institution whose financial interests he has an interest in protecting. Professor Freyer engages in no such practices. Both are brilliant but Professor Freyer comes from a position of a far more centered mind, he isn’t bought and he’s a problem solver who’ll change things in the future instead of funding his retirement.
@@barryfleming8488 Have you even listened to both of them talk about this issue? I've listened to a lot of Sowell but just got introduced to Roland. Roland seems much more pro black as an identity where Sowell seems to mostly shun the idea of black as an identity to begin with. They have a similar lens of thinking and pragmatism in wanting to call a spade a spade but there are definitely some ideological differences.
yeah, right...
The most revealing part of this for me was how trad academics advised on what to highlight and what not to when reporting results. From this we can infer that science and inquiry is downstream of narrative at major academic institutions. This is troubling.
Absolutely...and by not having quality data people are denied the ability to problem-solve. This is why it is very important not to accept every grievance idealogy without the benefit of truthful data. Roland is terrific.
That's well put.
Yes however there is also the fact that the data can be manipulated or even worse not reported/collected.
Fryer is amazing! Thanks for having him on!
Hopefully this gets more attention now that Gaye's grift is in the spotlight.
the US needs more of him
I've never been roughed up by police. But I got pulled over for a traffic violation and the police officer went off on me verbally. Yeah, just harsh language. I came away from that 1) shook up, 2) aggrieved, and 3) suspicious of cops. And that was just harsh language. Getting roughed up by any authority figure is SERIOUS business.
White people get roughed up by the police when they go against police orders too. Problem is, black people argue and resist more often.
Big respect to Roland Fryer .
In a compromised world, an uncompromising man.
So glad he's back!! Great reporting!?
49:39 I remember my high school having a reading incentive program where anyone who read a certain amount of books and filled out the forms to prove it would be allowed to join this little party with free snacks and coffee instead of going to class for a period. I actually didn’t even know about it until my friend brought it up and I was already reading more than enough books in the given period of time to qualify at that point. It didn’t really incentivize me that much because I just randomly starting reading a lot in high school, but it was a cool little reward.
yep, for something ya' did any way... but it did what it was designed to do. get students to prove that they are actually reading & you did !!!
BOOKS ARE SOOOO EXCITING & MENTALLY STIMULATING... 🙌🙏
How strange I came across your comment at exactly the same second he started talking about reading incentive program. Cheers. 🙂
First of all we (black urban males) don’t get our impressions of the police from the media. Those media incidents are extraordinarily insignificant in forming our opinions about police.
poor guy, he learned that the "wrong" findings are fatal to a career
I appreciate the use of data. This is the type of analysis that should be applied to most of our societal problems. Otherwise, what are we doing?
I work in data analytics as a software engineer and data driven decision making is truly a wonderful standard. At the same time, it reveals so many gaps about how much we don't know - it's humbling.
Yes as a social studies nerd one thing leads to another, there’s never really a simple answer without later discovering the unintended consequences
Roland's subtle correction of the host's obvious biases in this interview is masterful.
Fantastic episode. Can we get Glenn Loury on the show sometime?
Agreed!
@ 13:30 💥 BOOM💥 THERE IT IS !!!
a comedian said on his show:
" he got pulled over by the a cops. cop said I'm l👀kin' for drugs & money, the comedian said ME, too. we oughta ride together... 😅😅😅😂😂😂"
Great interview. Fryer came across as genuine and caring. Truly inspirational.
Claudine Gay was here!
A man of true integrity is hard to find
What a lovely person to listen to. I hope the little mishap at Harvard won't stop him from doing his good work.
Not a "mishap." He was set up. The Harvard president has been exposed as a corrupt and incompetent fraud.
That's going to be a rough hill to get around.
hopefully now that Affirmative action hire SJW plagiarist and phony pres CLAUDINE GAY is out of the picture, some decent College President will hire him back to do honest research.
Fryer eventually will win….. Harvard has already lost
Amen.
This was a good episode and it challenged my thinking but I was sorely disappointed that the impact of fatherless homes was almost completely ignored.
I admire the fact that he doesn’t start by looking for the witch. Too many people see a problem and immediately look for someone to blame.
His hospital example was a prime case where nobody was at fault. Management didn’t have the information they needed. Hospitals are labor intensive. They were more than willing to pay overtime to anyone who wanted to work.
Uber had a similar issue. Despite the pay scales being algorithmic, men were getting paid more than women. Why? Men chose to work nights, holidays, rush hour, all the times when pay was higher. Plus, they worked more hours.
Fryer inspires me to do more. A 2nd podcast is coming thanks to his inspiration.
A long time ago there was a basketball branded t-shirt that said, “Somewhere someone is practicing, and when you meet him in head-to-head competition, he’ll beat you.” Academically, Roland Fryer is that someone.
What I like about Fryer is that he is research-oriented, with a non-political, non-partisan narrative; which makes him an enemy of folk who want to push their narrative. His Salt Sensitivity Theory paper connecting hypertension in African-Americans to the slave trade is very good. The only difference I would have with him is the notion that while I understand that he is an economist, everything and every solution is data-driven, from solutions to corporate diversity to school test scores.
And, regardless if you like him, Al Sharpton's talk to him, "if we weren't being harassed daily, then we'd be willing to listen on some of these shootings that weren't clear!" That brings home the point that people who have those experiences with police aren't thinking about data. Their trust of police, regardless of data, is broken, and no amount of data will repair that trauma!
And, the notion of him prioritizing spending monies for poor communities, at the expense of "overhead for the university," should not be shunned. And, spending more time off campus with kids could have been done, by creating a class, which satisfies his initiative helping kids, and satisfying university academic requirements. With that said, I give him props for acknowledging his "asshole" behavior toward coworkers at Harvard.
He has realised that you need to let the university have some money for overheads! Hard lesson to learn. He got the job to do good research and bring money in, and students. He needed to be a bit present for them. Very interesting person.
Why do you think it is that parents have trouble understanding standard deviation units? Is there something we can do, other than obfuscation, to enhance the abilities of stakeholders to contextualize performance metrics accurately? What if we implemented school choice and the homeschooling parents received enhanced school funding based on how their children performed on standardized tests? In most of these inner city contexts I think you'll find the average school spending per failing child is higher than the income of the average parent of a failing child.
There should be a balance between helping the disadvantage and the importance of a fathers / pro-police
How about holding men accountable for the children they bring into this world?
@@pinchebruha405 Men do not reproduce asexually darling, if you're going to bust this one out, the men can point out that it takes two to tango and it ain't gay men making babies.
@@pinchebruha405 men can give birth now? what?
Can we get him on the mainstream media? And often?
I think he's a bit *too* honest
@@d0ubtingThom4s Truth for those media heads is like holy water to vampires.
Not saying it's media bias (it could be). But understanding his data-driven work takes more than the 2~4 minute segments on most TV, much less the attention span of most viewers.
Thank you for this. Enlightening.
WOW! SPELLBINDING! Truth and Beauty!
You make yourself valuable and relevant. He works his a$$ off and brings integrity and honesty to his work. Because of that, his value and relevance cannot be denied.
Prioritizes his time and funding on serving the community.
Roland Fryer is a future president of a respectable school.
Roland Fryer stepping into the shoes of Thomas Sowell.
He needs to, Professor Thomas is soon to live this world, and someone else need to be that guy.
Thank you.
Data! A pity during Covid this idea of data and randomised clinical trials was not done honestly.
33:00 are corporate administrators that incompetent that they can’t even figure out how to slice their own data by job and area to see the real situation?! They have to hire a guy to tell them “hey compare job vs job not all lumped together”
That is embarrassing
The only problem that I have with this man is what he said about his motivation for doing what he does. He said that he is doing this for the betterment of black people. Wouldn’t it be better if he was doing this for all of us.
that's the gift to gab not that he has a golden tongue. it's take ppl are more willing to listen & mos def agree w/ ANY~ONE based status, job, $$$, position & etc... but that same person has a character of dtrump very unbecoming & misogynistic. also his (big headedness) as his excuse for work place sexual harassment 🙄🤨 o k...
I think Fryer at least would recognize the Zero Sum Game fallacy here.
Helping someone does not immediately harm someone else.
Making an inner city mostly African American ghetto into a safer, commercially self sufficient community would not mean that a similar mostly Anglo trailer park, or a mostly Hispanic barrio would immediately get worse.
If anything, it would free up more resources, and hopefully identify propesed fixes that have proven to work. That can then be applied into other "problem" communities.
@@NullHand
🤨 guess... 🤔 it must be REALLY RUFF, where some live, were raised & etc...
this suppose to the be the "HOOD" & ain't ever heard a (shot) in the dark...
(🙌Ozzy) lol. 🤣
and hope to not ever do. ppl talk about the same 💩ALL the time...and it will ever be is talk... study this & data that, smh 🤨
end result, NOTHING.
@@NullHand zero sum game... 🤨 all these made up crap to mean
absolu~nothing...
so, whats the burbs'???
So refreshing to listen to this Black economist. Glad to have learned of data-driven DEI today, thank you!
I have a question for Fryer: I am a retired, white woman. After reading Ta-Nehisi Coates, "Between the World and Me", I have stopped declaring my "race" on questionaires. Does he agree with this tactic for helping to improve the lives of BiPoc and Black people? Thanks
No ty. We're good.
😂wow . Please tell me you're joking.
@@neilrichardson7454 It's called The White Savior Complex 😆
Hahaha, no that's not enough!
You should sign over your house and all the money you have saved to the first black person you see tomorrow!
@@kimjohnson8471 sadly, race grifters like Coates, have done nothing to help blacks in any way shape or form. They've only help themselves.
A great episode!
Every host on public radio sounds like Ira Glass.
Educational incentives will mostly be a failure.
Because education begins & ends in the home, not in the school.
Fryer is attempting to fix the problem by incentivizing against the symptom.
There is a reason why Asians, Indians & Jews have the best results - strong two-parent families who are razor-focused on education.
No school can compete with that.
Only 40% of white America is proficient in math and science. Why are whites failing so rapidly despite having every advantage and privilege from birth.
There is still an IQ difference between races, no matter which country those races live in. It goes deeper than a good family environment.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Mr. Fryer is Thomas Sowell's heir apparent.
Guy is awesome
Diogenes has been looking for this guy.
Who?
@@sallylauper8222...an honest man?
42:06 Economics of identity
44:02 Differences in development not racial differences in achievement
listening to this after the Claudine Gay scandal.
Think about the madness that must exist inside certain aspects of a society, in order for those aspects, who supposedly want to improve outcomes for targeted groups within that society, to be completely unwilling/unable to engage with data or studies that prove that we are actually getting better in some areas or that it is, at least, not as bad as we thought - even to the point of choosing to hide or lie about it. And in so doing, actually causing harm to society and those groups within that society that they supposedly wanted to help. We need to find a better story.
Possibly another Dr. Sowell! At least he hasn’t plagiarized his papers like one of the professors who suspended him. That professor went on to become President of Harvard University.
15:27 You do the police a disservice here. Once you discharge your weapon, you will have to live with the death of a human being. Not only an investigation.
the documentary brought me here.
That example of the hospital shift times was AMAZING. If you don't know the actual problem, you can't solve it!
So that's why he was fired from Havard, and no mainstream media wants him. Its crazy
Speed isn't the biggest problem . Instead, it's acceleration, tailgating & overall aggressive driving in the manner of playing a video game. Even if the young driver who grew up racing cars in video games can handle their driving other, older drivers & pedestrians can't negotiate their aggressive driving
We need to get ideology out of academia and instead instill the value of relentless pursuit of truth
Whose truth though. Truth is often relative. Generally truth and ideology are interrelated.
@@el-Cu9432 THE truth. That's what I'm talking about. Through objective interrogation & research.
@@el-Cu9432 truth is never relative
@@el-Cu9432 Drop the "my *truth* " bs, ok?
@@el-Cu9432this type of thinking screams > me me me = narcissism, as someone else here said….No please stop!
Love this guy!
Roland Fryer is a Heto who would help all African Americans succeed at a much higher rate, if his policies were allowed to gain any traction at all.
9:55 shocking
Nice podcast but way too many ads, dang
Air Nerds killed me
why...how the hell could they suspend this man from doing his work!?
He wasn't following the narrative.
Camden should be a model for how to engage USA CITIZENS as PUBLIC SERVANT.
Why not just hire the most capable person for the job? If employers pay women, a person of color, or some other group less, wouldn't employers then choose to fill every job opening with women, a person of color, or other group to save money?
@10:00 What were the race of the officers? Did you control for that?
Yes, he did control based on the race of the officers.
Fryer for president
This dude has gigantic effective balls.
I would be curious to see comparisons between black Americans and poor white Southerners. I know that while black Americans were moving out of the South that poor whites were also moving out of the South. It would be instructive to know how many managed to move their families up into the middle class and how many became trapped in welfare.
Harvard is history
It wasn't history considering its 200 year involvement as a major player in the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. People still broke their backs to enroll in that institution. I doubt the recent controversy will end their run.
we are premature in thinking harvard is going away, though culturally we should make a shift in being LOUD about how we don't respect people who went to school there
We all feel that way. We don’t like police pulling us over because of that very same reason
Roland Fryer should be President of Harvard University.
GF not murdered, ODd
I am surprised at Roland Fryer finding. I have other experiences and seen other experiences of discrimination based on race --- sorry but its true, me, my husband, my daughters' boyfriends accuse of shop lifting, my daughter being called bad names, sorry its there
Data = what gets measured gets done.
Try Batson Rule…..
Whereas Roland can say he refuses to lie, Claudia Gay who was instrumental in taking out Roland at Harvard motto would be she refuses to tell the truth.
Well meaning, just miss directed.
That Lebron James shoe experiment was the most out of touch program I’ve ever heard. His heart is in the right place but I found that to be ridiculous. Kids aren’t mindlessly materialistic asshats.. “I’m a lot cooler than my colleagues”. Boy you ain’t cool by any metric 😂😂
52:03 no, parents are not doing everything she thinks is right. Get on the internet, print a worksheet of any subject grade appropriate for your child and ask your child to complete. You’ll know if your child is at grade level.
Does he talk about how 13 do 60?
"He even made it onto late night tv" - like that's a positive. LNTV, is trash.
He's the professor that should be PRESIDENT of Academia Emeritus for all HBCUS.
And now it is said Claudine Gay caused him to be suspended for his research
She sat on the review committee that chose to close his lab and suspend him as opposed to just sanction, which was the recommendation by the investigating body. She and another professor had written papers that RF had pointed out discrepancies and/ or refuted findings, so it appeared retaliatory in nature.
I've watched thousands of arrest videos and I can tell you from that vast amount of data, almost exclusively, those who comply without resistance don't get manhandled, and those who talk back, push back, fight back, refuse to get in the car, and/or try to run--do get manhandled. It's pretty simple.
The only problem is that the officers violate the law in many of these cases. There are many cases where there was no resistance and they still committed brutality. If your rights are violated, do you go along with the program? Many officers have a short fuse and even if you are respectful and ask a question, they may get upset and rough you up a bit. Many are also mistaken identifies... even house searches.
@@DaaimShabazz The video evidence says different. Not that brutality never happens, but that it's rare. And from that video evidence (almost all cops today have cameras) it's also evident that most criminals claim they "din du nuffin" when it's clear on the video that they did. So, people "reporting" that they were roughed up without having resisted is very suspect evidence, and that's what Fryer used in his study. Oh, and yes, if you actually are innocent and the cops are making a mistake, you obey police commands and deal with it in court. And if you do--you don't get roughed up. Again, pretty simple.
@@DaaimShabazz Yeah, some cops are unfair, yet to paint all negative police interactions with that brush is both dishonest and common.
@@DaaimShabazzas my criminal friends say while laughing…’the reason why we get away with so much shit is because we don’t have to follow the rules, cops do’ let that sink in! It’s always the ones (not all > insert something here< are bad, who are not affected but feel the need to defend the one person who is not….not a fan of trump but like he said Mexico is not sending thier best….if only a better man could articulate so as not to offend the virtue signalers
Roland Fryer is an American Treasure
24y
He is the spiritual son of Thomas Sowal.
Educational institutions, schools need to STOP teaching fairy-tale stories and fiction. 😁😎😷🙋♀️
He must be glad Claudine gay got fired😂😂😂😂
Please stop sticking people who have similar superficial physical attributes in the same ideology. It is demeaning, dehumanizing, and disrespectful.
What's really sad about the Roland Fryer situation is that he isn't saying that racism doesn't exist...and that there are issues with schools and policing...but by slapping the word systemic on it....means you don't actually target the areas that you can make real changes...just searching forever for this boogeyman that doesn't exist.
Please talk about the true history of slavery
world wide for the last 3500 years
the first slaves were the Slavs for 1000 years... they were white !!
Today in Africa there are one million black Africans owned by wealthy black AFRICANS
THAT IS TODAY !!!!
England and America were the first countries in the history of the world to say no to slavery !!!
if everyone were to know the true history of slavery
they would work more diligently to be honorable Americans
there are still slaves world wide today !!!
please get the true facts of slavery out there ... the truth will remove the endless pointless anger
And will help all Americans enormously
I thought of Fryer while listening to program on NPR's Code Switch. Contrary to what Fryer has claimed about tweaking discrimination, the NPR guest said that housing is racially segregated, schools are segregated and income inequality is huge.
This guy is a champion of Labor
yeah remember you aint black if you dont vote democRAT
Data driven…hmm. Let’s start with an average IQ of 85 and see where data takes us from there.
Why aren't there "enough" Asians in professional sports? Average salaries in professional sports are higher than in law, engineering, medicine, even investment backing. Why hasn't anyone looked at the "pipeline problem" of Asians in professional sports? Is that racism?
There is a pipeline in baseball. Most Asians (in US) do not play basketball. They also do not play football
@@jabaltariq4606 And there *is* a pipeline of blacks to the tune of 14% in the pipeline to Harvard? (Question rhetorical -- facts are abundant.)
Freyer says he follows the facts which is great except he is not up to date on what makes a person do well. Well over 50% is genetic, which is what you are born with and never changes. Of the environmental part a large part is proper nutrition under the age of two. Luck is also a factor. There is only a small part that can be helped by better education.
He's not speculating his way into his conclusions. He's actually proven it by fully closing the achievement gap in 20 low performing schools in Houston after taking them over and implementing his recommendations.
@@MicahChiWhat you're saying is great. How well will they do in the rest of life outside of education? They only have so much energy. Bad nutrition, genetics, environment will still play a part. Thankfully, there are ways to overcome those issues too. People don't think so but I know it.
So culture and family situation have nothing (or have little) to do with success in life?
You're wrong,completely wrong.
You just don't get what statistics do. Maybe go back to school?
@@mathiso01well if bad nutrition, genetics, can be overcome as well, then problem solved.