The Dark Ending to Mass Effect 3 We Never Got | The Indoctrination Theory Explained
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- Опубликовано: 26 июл 2024
- In today's Mass Effect Legendary Edition video - We'll finally be exploring the daddy of all Mass Effect theories - the Indoctrination Theory.
The Indoctrination Theory is based on the belief that Shepard was manipulated by the Reapers throughout the Mass Effect trilogy - And that in the end, Shepard still lies in the rubble next to the Citadel transport beam in London. Today, i'll be explaining the origins of the theory & why people still believe it's the true ending.
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00:00 - Video content
00:24 - The Theory in Short
00:42 - The Reapers on Earth
01:55 - London
02:42 - The Hints of Indoctrination
05:30 - The "Non Sensical" Original Ending
07:48 - The Starchild (Catalyst)
09:10 - Does the Theory make sense anymore?
09:30 - Could it Have Worked as an Ending? 
Игры
“Marauder Shields tried to save us from that horrible ending” LMAO
RIP to a true hero
My head canon has always been that shephard was subconsciously fighting indoctrination the entire third game. Which is why he had the nightmares and was shown for the first time in any of the games to doubt his actions. The reapers began to see him as a real threat after the events of ME2 and felt indoctrination was the best way to get rid of him as a threat. That way, if he completed the crucible, he would be indoctrinated to make a decision that benefits them. This is why I think the destroy ending is canon. The chose is red because the reapers subconsciously want you to believe that it’s the wrong choice, so by picking it and destroying them you have beaten the indoctrination attempt. I think this also explains why if you shoot the child it becomes furious because this is a direct/violent challenge to their indoctrination attempt. I also thinks it makes sense that the reapers took this risk instead of killing shepherd on the ground. I think they’ve realized that each cycle is getting closer and closer to killing them and this was their last attempt to find a solution that allows them to live and effect all future cycles, even if that means synthesis or allowing shepherd to take over their combined consciousness. In the end, they’d evolved to want to preserve their own life
Ohhh I really like this one
100% agree. There's simply TOO MUCH evidence, accidental or not, in the third game for the IT to not be cannon
That makes alot of sense! Good job!
@@MrHulthen I got the MrHulthen stamp of approval. I can die content now
@commander revan I'm aware.
My thoughts remain the same.
I still believe the control and synthesis endings are influenced by the reapers. Seriously. For 3 games we had the mindset of "we'll destroy the reapers and send them back to dark space!" And within the last 5min people suddenly forget what they fought for and choose anything but Destroy. bruh moment
Are you saying the catalyst indoctrinated me? Might be onto something there.
Trueeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Honestly, I’d still choose synthesis. The only reason why the player is led to “destroy the reapers” is because it was presented as the only option. If I knew synthesis was an optional goal, I’d pick it earlier.
The difference between synthesis and what Saren was doing is Saren was working towards organics being under the control of the reapers. Synthesis is everyone keeping their free will.
And I like the synthesis because I want the Geth and beings like Edi to survive. Learning to coexist with synthetics is also a plot thread throughout the trilogy, and actually my favorite theme of the game in general, so this ending is where that aspect gets a pay off.
So agree. I felt the same thing, because of that i always pick up destroy ending
@@blacklite911 another issue with synthesis is the lack of care for people consent in the matter. Synthesis would also lead to stagnation, a lack of purpose. What’s the point of thriving when you’ve already peaked. Not to mention a robot would have the same rights as an organic, which is just whack to compare
Even the Extended Cut doesn't resolve the issues. It just explains things, while at the same time opens new plotholes. The ugly truth is, ME3 was never finished. It was published prematurely and suffered from the loss of its lead writers.
Occams Razor. ME3's ending issues stem from rushed development. They needed to get the game out and slapped together what they could for the ending in the 11th hour. As I recall, Tali's face reveal was apparently done by Casey Hudson grabbing a Getty Image the night before ME3 went Gold. ME3 need another year or so, and, for whatever reason, EA wasn't willing to get them that time.
For ME4, technically ME5, I really hope they don't bring back the Reapers as the massive, galaxy ending threat they were. I'd be fine with a single surviving Reaper destroyer or something along those lines, but you can't do massive, grand scope, galaxy ending, threat to all life opponents every game while still having impact. Scale the story back to something more personal.
Totally agree. Mass Effect has such a well built universe with so much potential that I think small stakes more personal stories post-reapers have a chance of being genuinely excellent.
It's because EA bought Bioware and wanted to rush out all these games. The bottom line matters more to EA than the beauty of the devs work. Period. I also noticed around this time that other EA flagship titles like Madden started to tank in terms of quality. Fuck EA.
Go the star trek route I agree, they can fleshout their universes lore a lot better giving us smaller stories, instead of a singular galaxy wide threat every game. I doubt theyll learn though, look at dragon age, in every game they have you playing a hero that saves the world from destruction and now they plan to do it yet again with dragon age 4...
Or... Occams Razor version 2: Bioware attempted the indoctrination theory ending but messed it up. They got themselves in a corner where they would anger their audience no matter how they continued after that point. They needed to get the game out and slapped together what they could for the ending: the breath scene.
I remember doing all 3 endings at launch, reloading my save and trying to see if I missed something to get a terrible ending.
That’s the point I said “Fuck it, indoctrination theory it is.”
No
no
I always wondered why the control option was colored blue (which had always been a Paragon choice) while the destroy ending was colored red (always a Renegade choice). This kind of reinforced the indoctrination theory (before the extended cut) for me. The "good" way was to control but the "bad" way was to destroy. Sounds like exactly what the Reapers would want.
That, and how they had TIM for control and Anderson for destroy.
Late reply, but the way I see it, it was never that Paragon was strictly good and Renegade was strictly bad
Rather, Paragon Shepard is the kind of Shepard who goes out of his way and tries to find ways around his objective, to reach his goal but in a preferable method than if they went the straight route. To that extend they spare and forgive, always working their empathy to find a (presumably) better outcome
Renegade Shepard on the other hand is for a direct approach. Renegade Shepard won't go out of their way to reach a different outcome. They are direct, by the objective and if that objective says kill, then Shepard kills
As such, by that logic it's perfectly reasonable for Destroy to be renegade (Go in, destroy the reapers, mission complete) and control to be paragon (move the goalpost, reach an arguably better immediate outcome with making the reapers actually helpful). Synthesis is green because... I guess it transcends that morality stygma in some form? Or they just wanted a third option and thought "wait a second, we only have 2 moral alignments"
The sounds you hear the Reapers make are what is used for the indoctrination process, they even have Binaural Beats added to their sounds clips to make you 'feel' the sound they make. Take note that the child at 4:32 disappears after the reaper sound, I believe that was the most blatant evidence of indoctrination. You also hear the Rachni Queen mention 'Sour Notes' being used to control her children, and it could be easy to consider the 'Sour Notes' to be represented by the Oily looking figures in Shepard's nightmares. Combine the figures with the Reaper sounds you hear in his Nightmares, and even after the developers declined the theory I still want to accept it.
it could have been in the original ending. we would never know because the writers are under NDA and would never admit this screw-up.
Me too.
I'd like to headcanon that the Indoctrination Theory does have a part to play in the ending, but not as strongly as described here.
I'd like to believe that Shepard and Admiral Anderson _did_ make it up to the Citadel to have their confrontation with The Illusive Man. All the key moments happen, just everything surrounding it is wishy washy because they were under heavy Reaper Indoctrination (Like how Anderson got to the control panel first if he was supposedly behind Shepard. They probably _did_ end up in the same place, just that they couldn't see each other until they both got to the control panel because of indoctrination influences).
For the most part, I think Harbinger used TIM and sent him as a cover to indoctrinate Shepard into believing that controlling the Reapers is possible, which of course is a lie. Shepard then overcomes it, resulting in TIM's and Anderson's death, and they pass out after the Crucible docks.
Here is where I believe the Indoctrination Theory _really_ takes effect.
Shepard wakes up to see Star Child, but I think Star Child is actually just a last-ditch indoctrination hallucination which is induced by Harbinger, who tries to indoctrinate Shepard into not destroying the Reapers.
If you think about it, Control and Synthesis are the two options that don't cause a galactic blackout that could result in casualties, yet they are the two options that will undoubtedly kill Shepard. Harbinger could simply be expecting Shepard to sacrifice themselves for the "greater good."
With Control, Shepard could become an A.I. that Harbinger can eventually corrupt into his own tactical advantageous asset. With Synthesis, Harbinger could take time to seize control of all organic beings under the thrall of the Reapers by using everyone's new cybernetic DNA.
It's why I like Destroy ending best. It makes sense for Shepard story-wise because it's what they've been gunning for for the entire trilogy. Picking Control or Synthesis feels like Shepard succumbed to indoctrination, while Destroy feels like Shepard managed to see through Harbinger's lies.
For me the Indoctrination ending is the "true ending" and with the perfect destroy, where you did not turn into a husk in the cutscene :)
Remember when Casey Hudson said the following "It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.” Pepperidge Farm Remembers.
Yeah fully remember this, he was right though, it was not A, B or C, it was R G B :D
Pepperidge Farm Remembers is one of the best memes ever made. Well done.
Plot twist: the players themselves are indoctrinated.
This.
By Bioware.
This is how I always understood the indoctrination theory. It's not just about Shepard.
If you pick any other option other then destroy, you the player has been indoctrinated.
Bioware had such a great opportunity here.
Everyone remembers the "a man chooses, a slave obeys" part from bioshock... If indoc theory had been real, and the final cut dlc had supported it, with the backlash people had about the released ending and the schism between players who hated it and those who defended it... bioware would have gone down in gaming history for pulling a real life "a man chooses, a slave obeys" on the player base.
But alas... Twas not to be.
Missed some very important details about the theory, so I shall kindly provide:
1. Indoctrination in codex is explained that those who are indoctrinated, see black oily shapes of people etc. You can notice those being in Shepard dreams, which adds fuel to the theory itself.
2. Catalyst logic is still flawed. He gives you a choice: Control, Synthesis and Destroy, but this is where the thing is most odd. Shepard always had the paragon / renegade option of doing things his or her own way. Suddenly, your Shepard is forced to roll with what someone tells him to pick, but there is a big flaw: If Shepard can pick destroy, why can't the catalyst, based on this choice, just fly all the reapers into the sun? It would destroy the reapers but without damaging the Geth and other AI. This means that the catalyst does not want you to have your choice, it wants you to have its choice, giving you an ultimatum in this. To me, the most disappointing thing about the ending was the lack of the renegade / paragon option at the end, as a sum of all that I have achieved through the three games. It was especially unrewarding to see my own Shepard accept someone's given possibilities instead of making his own way.
another point not mentioned is the renegade ending to the game. if you choose the destroy ending, aka the ending going against the reapers, shepard walks up to the control unit to destroy it and as he does his movements become more and more stable, almost as if him being hurt was just an illusion and by denying the reapers, he's breaking free from it.
Not to mention that the concept of Synthesis has been seen throughout all of the Mass Effect lore.
Saren
Collectors
Husks
All other reaper forms
Even the Leviathans
How is it being treated as if it was some new discovery? The simplest answer is most likely. The Catalyst is lying.
I never even heard of the indoctrination theory until I started watching this channel. However I did think that throughout the entire game shepard never experienced any indoctrination seemed a little odd, the theory however in my mind it is a little far fetched but definitely adds to the story for me
Indeed, there are alot of good things with this theory aswell as some meh things. I'm glad i could provide something new! 😁
I heard of the theory from Big Dan Gaming, but everyone has thier own take on it.
@@MrHulthen mate the ending could have being written as a dream sequence and then scrap and repurpose as the ending itself. the indoctrination still makes more sense than the extended cut. that is a sad fact we all have to accept.
this theory is flawed, it's not being in the vicinity, its being on board for time, or several visits and its willpower based, shepard seeing the kid is ptsd, not indoctrination, the beam ports to several locations for processing, If shepherd was indoctrinated, he would work with the illusive man, whether he knew it or not, the evidence dosent support this.
@@qjo5158 mate the way i see it, its either bad writing or a scraped ending. either way its bad for the game.
I think they were TRYING to indoctrinate. The end choice would determine whether or not it worked. Synthesis is the completely indoctrinated ending with destroy being completely free. There are parts of the theory that show pretty good evidence that they were trying to. Besides, I can't see Joker or any of the others leaving Shepherd behind for any reason. Joker felt awful about you dying to save him and I can't see any of the romancable characters flying away without you. Fact is, the canon ending isn't really an ending. Nothing is resolved. Its almost like they want us to make up our own.
That's what the indoctrination theory is about... Anderson represents "the power of will" of Shepard, a part inside him that fights against the reapers while Jack is a part of Shepard which has been indoctrinated. Choosing anything but destroy means being indoctrinated.
How is 'synthesis' indoctrination, when it doesn't re-write anyone?
@@Kainlarsen It's not. Indoctrination Theory is a long-debunked theory which some fans still cling to as a coping mechanism to try and rationalize the games original ending. They don't like the ending (which is fine and a fair opinion). But instead of moving on with their lives, these folks are desperately trying to find some deeper meaning.
There is no deeper meaning. EA forced Bioware to rush the production of the game and they had to make cuts and edits to get the game out on time. That's what happened. There's no indoctrination. All the ending options were given fully voiced epilogues in the Extended Cut DLC describing the choice you make at the end and shows that whichever end you choose actually happened; it wasn't some indoctrination dream.
@@billsutherby agreed. This theory completely spit on ME’s legacy and while EA ruined some aspects of ME by rushing Bioware, they did not completely ruin it. This theory, however, ruins everything.
Yeah the ending is rushed and half-assed but it’s not as shitty as this theory.
@@billsutherby I think you are making it too easy for yourself. We all know about the production issues and some even know about the scrapped subplot about the dark matter. It furthermore remains a fact, that the ending of ME3 was badly written. Due to a rushed ending enforced by EA? Very likely, but the result remains the same: Something bad remains bad - even if we can justify it.
It's easy to just dunk on everyone you disagree with by saying that they are just coping and can't move on with their lives. How would you know that they do not move on? Most people are just thinking about the grand scale of the game for their pasttime, because ME had an awful lot of lore. It's literally the point of a good story and a vast world to get lost in it... for fun.
Personally I think it's disrespectful to hate on this partifular theory when even the ME team recognized it that much, that they issued an official statement about it. Why did they do it? Because it was actually compelling. That's very telling about the possible validity and the thought that went into this theory itself. Even if you do not agree with it - even if you think to know better - it would suit yourself to accept that it exists. For me it's more of a coping mechanism to rationalize why an ending is bad and that we couldn't do anything about it. At the end of the day it is all made up. From the game to the theory itself. It would be sad if we are not allowed to imagine another ending for an awesome game, where we as fans believe that it would do the series more justice.
Nobody is forcing you down this path. You do not have to believe this theory. I just ask you to respect the fans of the theory. At the end we all like the same game and the same fictional universe - no need to hate on each other.
Theres actually two version of the theory. The one you describe and the Hallucination version which is what I believed. In the latter version Shepard does get up and does go through the beam, but is heavily influenced by that point and is hallucinating a lot of what he/she sees. To me it's more in line with what we know happens when a person is being indoctrinated.
This is my theory as well
*they see
Not he she sees
Get better
@@lostforever773 You can be a male or female Shepard. Not Two or more at the same time
They - used to refer to two or more people or things previously mentioned or easily identified.
I always interpreted it as Shepard was an anomaly. Singular in their thought processes.
We're reminded time after time that Shep's team would follow them into the bowels of Hell. Almost as if any subtle influence exerted on the team is overridden by the the absolute influence of Shepard's resolve.
Even the Leviathan struggled to take Shep's mind.
The Reapers saw Shep as a threat as there had to be minute influence for indoctrination to take hold... Their resolve wouldn't allow it
Force Bonds confirmed.
Not sure if anyone mentioned this or not but.... WHAT ABOUT THE EYES in Synthesis and Control endings Shepard's eyes become that of the illusive man's eyes only in the destroy ending does he or she keep their eyes.
Even the devs admitted the indoctrination theory ending is much smarter than their RGB endings LOL
Yeah indoctrination theory has always been my head canon. 3’s ending was heartbreaking to me. Not because of Shepard’s death necessarily, but because of how unfinished it felt. It like ended on a cliff hanger with zero closure and a whole lot of questions.
This is my first RUclips comment, and I gotta say that your videos are awesome, man. Glad to see love for Mass Effect.
As for the Indoctrination Theory, as you have already pointed out, it really only makes sense from a pre-Extended Cut point of view. Basically it was us as fans attempting to make sense of the mess that was Mass Effect 3’s conclusion (a case of plain old bad writing lol). So again from pre-EC, it does fill in a lot of holes, but post-EC not so much.
But I am actually more surprised by the fact that Bioware DIDN’T do anything with indoctrination concerning Shepard. It’s odd that he/she was never attacked by it given the fact that they were always around Reapers, Reaper objects, etc. My guess is that Shepard’s indoctrination should have started in force during the Arrival DLC when he/she is blasted by the artifact. I haven’t read the comic, but you mentioned the Illusive Man was probably always indoctrinated since the start, when something similar happened to him with a Reaper object. Yet with Shepard, he/she never seems to experience nothing at all (plot armor?). Again quite odd.
Seeing the stress that Shepard goes under during ME3, it would have made sense to have some form of subplot dealing with indoctrination, if only for a little bit of time. Honestly, it’s more likely just a missed opportunity on Bioware’s part. Oh well.
Anyway, love your vids. Keep up the good work!
Yeah Shepard has some massive plot armor for sure, atleast when it comes to Indoctrination. Thank you for the love man! :D
My thoughts were the dream sequences were the Reapers attempting to indoctrinate Shepard. The Rachni Queen talks of "oily shadows" as the Reapers attempt to indoctrinate her race. In the dream sequences, Shepard sees some pretty oily-looking shadows.
I always kind of thought (my own head-cannon) that Shepard was immune to indoctrination because of his Prothean beacon encounter and the cypher from the Thorian. Shepard had the ability to sense Prothean beacons, and Prothean tech could detect indoctrination and perhaps in late to final iterations of it ward off indoctrination.
I think it made the dreams more... Interesting. And I also like the idea that Shepard was half indoctrinated, fighting it the whole game and that at the end, the only good option was to destroy them bc the other ones were a trap where indoctrination wins... But I also think it is great bc the actual ending is a bit disappointing, even after the long cut.
The “master puppeteer” motion you did was the highlight of the video IMO
1:40 my top 3 sci-fi battles are the siege on Atlantis (Stargate Atlantis), the battle at the Antarctica (Stargate SG-1) and the Reaper invasion on Earth :D
Imagine the outrage from the players if it turns out that Shepard is the bad guy like Saren was…
I actually thought this is where they were going
Currently playing mass effect 3 now lol
@@KingDavidTBE Not really. There isn’t a single second in the game where we could doubt that Shepard’s main goal is to beat the Reapers.
Not even Renegade Shepard sympathizes with TIM at least.
@DaBomb8493 You are just cherrypicking random things you don’t like, not what are objectively bad…
Not kill synthetics? Wtf, why would it be better? It would need a lots of explanation because it goes against how Crucible works.
Your ending is just different, not better or worse…
@@juzoli Valid point.
Allowing that to be an option for an ending would have been epic though imo
Wait the illusive man was indoctrinated from the beginning in the canon? So in mass effect 2 the reapers have their puppet kill off Shepard just to have their other puppet bring him back and help kill the other puppet? Bruh what
yess for some reason the reapers want shepard so bad they have all their tools working to get shepard. they kinda cannibalized themselves but its not a plot hole. TIM was actually ordered to send shepard into scenarios where he would have been captured by collectors. aka collector ship mission, collector base mission. TIM think he is doing it to fight the collector but he is actually being motivated to hand Shepard over to the reapers. It also explains why TIM wanted Shepard exactly was he was while "alive" no modification of any kind especially on the brain.
@@roiking2740 I’m saying why would the collectors kill Shepard just for TIM to resurrect him and fight them if both parties are indoctrinated. Also I’m just still bitter the direction they went with with TIM and Cerberus in the 3rd game
@@MrJdapp the collector tried to capture shepard not kill him. they could have destroyed the Normandy completely but they just keep shooting light shot at him.
and the fact the reapers use both tools to capture shepard. its to insure the greatest chances of success. it was no cerberus who stole shepard body. it was liara and feron. the idea here is that if a third party were to capture shepards body for whatever reason cerberus would be able to take from them. second TIM is under soft control indoctrination. which makes him unpredictable. but in the end of the day he did exactly what the reapers wanted but they could never have predicted shepard succeeding in destroying the collectors.
The indoctrination theory will always be my head cannon… I will never forgive myself for synthesizing in the end and succoming to indoctrination :(
There's another piece of evidence that the ending is Indoctrination: if you watch the filming of the next Blastro movie (the Javik scene in the Citadel DLC), you'll notice that the film makers were filming the exact same scene of the rush towards the beacon at the end of the London sequence. Down to the Mako being blown up by Harbringer.
And I agree that it sucks.
I'd like to digress for a moment, and bring up the whole 'Dark Energy' arc that was abandoned without warning or explanation... If they'd only stuck with what was originally intended, we wouldn't have had this mess of an ending.
Even that wouldve hypocritical of the reapers. Dark Energy buildup is a direct byproduct of eezo usage, its in.the codex. Which was discovered/invented almost entirely by the reapers anyway
@@212mochamanhaven’t directly interacted with the codex to know this, but how is it hypocritical of the reapers?
Is it because the original ending was supposed to have the Reaper’s reason for harvesting due to the eventual implosion of the universe, when it was inevitably caused by them?
@@TheSecondRunner pretty much. Dark energy buildup caused haeston's sun to decay extremely quickly. The devs originally wanted the reapers motivation be to stop that. Even though the main, if not only cause of it is the Mass Relays.
@@212mochamanso how could this potentially have been resolved? The Reapers were always seen as a synthetic race that sought self-preservation, so how would this make sense if their goal was to preserve the universe?
Doesn't make sense
@@TheSecondRunner if I had the answer to that I'd be working as a writer for Bioware. I dunno
The kid didn't vanish in the vent. If you take a closer look at the vent, you see where the vent turns to go in another direction. It's possible the kid was frightened by the Reaper stomping by, and crawled deeper into the vent to hide. And the reason why the soldiers don't seem to notice him. Is simply because most of them are busy fighting or trying get survivors onto a shuttle. The dreams Shepard is experiencing is most likely early stages of post traumatic stress. From all the horrifying battles and things Shepard has been through. Seeing the kid getting killed by a reaper, clearly had an effect on Shepard. So much so that he or she is haunted by it.
I believe if you listen close when the kids shuttle gets destroyed you can hear a small child screaming too so I definitely agree probably just PTSD from the war with the Reapers and I wouldn't blame Shep one bit for that
Pewdiepie is my second-favorite Swedish RUclipsr
For anyone doubting the IT, explain ONE THING - How did Shepard SURVIVE HARBINGERS LASER ATTACK ? We saw it, literally seconds ago, disintegrating troops and destroying troop transports.
By avoiding it
Simple
For anyone believing the IT, explain ONE THING - why did Bioware specifically state that its not canon?
@@xandernightmare4985 because it's not Canon
@@lostforever773 which is exactly my point. Don't get me wrong, the IT is a brilliant theory and it would've been one quite genius twist, but Bioware chose to say its not canon, so clinging to it is just prime coping
@@xandernightmare4985 I know that that's your point
No need to act like I didn't get it
And it's not really a brilliant theory, but sure
8:20 "why did sovereign have to go to citadel instead of activate signal remotely" this was explained in me1 on ilos with the prothean ai, he explained that the left over prothean scientists blocked the signal in a last effort before they finally died but it only delayed the reapers and forced sovereign to go set off the signal manually buying them some extra time.
Countless cycles, and trillions of lives were lost to the Reapers. Yes, I killed EDI, the Geth and all the other AI in the galaxy, and I believe they would agree with the sacrifice, but I still had to make a decision. I stood in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and decided to avenge them. To do anything else would have been a gross betrayal of everyone who died to the Reapers today, and every day before.
Same, it doesn't feel or sit right with me to choose any other ending by destroy, I only do synthesis sometimes because I want EDI to live her life with joker
Sunk costs are emotional baggage. Always go for future benefit, not aged revenge.
I evolve my reasons for my hatred of synthesis over time. The latest reason why has precisely ONE NAME. David. The ONLY explanation offered was synthesis that he didnt bloody want and look where it ended
@@212mochaman I go for the more simple name a reaper combat form or a collector form. You just named a byproduct of Synthesis. The Saren Boss Fight? Synthesis! The Proto-Reaper? Synthesis!
I'm surprised you didnt mention the mass effect 2 Arrival ending. Shepherd was out cold for days near an indoctrination device.
I think it would've been cool if there was an indoctrinated squad mate, it would be decided depending on your choices, I wouldn't even know how it would work. Imagine on your very first playthrough of the game using Garrus on pretty much every mission only for him to slowly turn into a marauder at some point in ME3 (used Garrus as an example)
"I wouldn't even know how it would work." Lemmie sell you the dream! >:D
Instead of having Kai Leng in ME3, his role of being an anti-Shepard was filled instead by this indoctrinated squadmate
And then instead of nightmares about the kid from the vent, Shepard had nightmares about this squadmate instead
@@Zidana123 fuck yes
I don't think Shepard was indoctrinated but I do believe Shepard was very badly suffering from PTSD
I tricked my friend with a fake screenshot making it look like the indoctrination theory was proved canon. he still doesn't talk to me lol
ouch!
You forgot about the secret ending where Shepard is found breathing in rubble of concrete and rebar (which the citadel wasn't made of). Still Bioware confirming it isnt Canon still puts the nail in the coffin.
They could always change there mind ig we will see in mass 4
You forgot to mention maybe the strongest piece of evidence supporting IT; the scene in me1 when you're talking to the rachni queen. she is describing the reapers indoctrination as a "sour note" and tells shepard she does not know what happened in the rachni war- "We only heard discordance, songs the color of oily shadows". The dream scenes in ME3 with Shepard running through the woods look alot like "oily shadows"
Marauder Shields is the reaperized Spectre Nihlus from the first game. You cant tell me otherwise.
The bigger thing was "Dark matter". remember in a mission in ME2, Haestrom's sun was going critical when it was young.
I barely remember the specifics but again, dark energy/matter was causing this "big crunch" and the Reapers were running out of time.
Basically, that was scrapped.
My attachment to the indoctrination theory is partially a coping mechanism brought on by the unfulfilling and disastrous ending(s) we'd originally been given. After all that feels and immersion I'd felt in the story and characters I need to have my puzzle pieces fit as tangibly as possible or I would be left feeling empty and incomplete... like the ending we'd been given.
Hell yeah, you finally covered it! Love the video, pal!
❤
I always have said the a version of the indoctrination theory would of been the best ending that allows the game to move on
I believe it's partially viable. I think that Shapard WAS indoctrinated to an extent from being exposed to the reaper signal throughout the trilogy, which only started having an effect in the 3rd game. He only managed to resist for so long through sheer will, but even then it only served to delay the effects long enough to stop the Reapers. By the time Harbinger blasted him the indoctrination had finally started taking hold but because of his will the Reapers had to get creative using illusions of Anderson and the Illusive Man to try and break him. When that failed the Catalyst saw that a change had to be made but it couldn't make them, but shepard could. (hence the endings)
Nice one!
@@MrHulthen thanks, man! It's such an honor!
I also wonder as well if the Prothean artifact at the very beginning helped him to fight indoctrination. I could see them putting the signal into the data to help anyone who might have survived to fight it.
@@TheKrazykris that makes sense
That makes sense. Once the crucible docks, it alters what the catalyst can do and therefore needs Shepard to make those changes, hence giving him "choices".
One thing I would like to comment on is about the child. I Just played through the Leviathan DLC recently, and the Leviathan mentioned that they created an A.I. to solve the problem of preserving all life, and that was what created the Reapers in the first place, based on that directive. I believe that leads even more credence to the fact that the child was the "puppet master" of the Reapers thus making indoctrination less likely in my opinion, but do realize it could easily be used to explain the reverse in allowing for him to have a basis in a delusion that he is meeting that said A.I.
Well the Prothean VI mentioned that the keepers ability to signal the Reaper armada was altered after the Protheans made it to the Citadel so when Sovereign sent the Signal to the Keepers it failed. And when we meet Javik he mentions that the player Character was not indoctrinated, so the “indoctrination ending theory” wouldn’t make since in the long run (which the first part had nothing to do with the indoctrination thing)
my opinion:
If the indoctrination theory was real, the destroy ending would still be canon regardless, like why would Shepard have any reason to believe the catalyst? he’s been told by leviathan that it has no motive other than the harvest, and he’s had the same stance throughout the entire series, that the reapers must die,
and the catalyst lies to your face by telling you that destroy will kill you, when it doesn’t,
The IT makes sense, when you remember how Sovereign was defeated back at ME1. His shields were overloaded after Shepard's victory over Saren, and then Alliance fleet smashed the reaper.
In ME3 Shepard defeats Harbinger in a mind game. Harbinger losing his shields and becomes vulnerable. Remnants of the fleet and ground forces destroy him, so all the other reapers are dead too, because Harbinger claims that he is collective mind.
That's my canon ending...
I think the indoctrination ending could still work. Harbinger and the Souverin metioned both that Shepard has a great willpower but even the strongest mind can't deny the effects of the binaural waves and such. So why should it be not possible that Shepard might be indoctrinated? If we take a closer look to the 'green' and 'blue' ending, both ways are what the Reapers wanted, refuse and 'red' are not. In my headcanon the Commander frees his/her mind during the chat with Anderson and TIM to make the right desicion how to stop the war.
*their mind
@@lostforever773 No
@@scotts6264 yes
You're just hateful
Fix it
@@lostforever773 It's not broken. Only a Narcissist would think it is. Go away.
@@scotts6264 I'll stay
I always enjoyed the indoctrination theory because it makes more sense to what has already been established in the 1st two games.
In ME1 if you save the Rachni queen she’ll tell you that the war w/ the Krogan was bc the Reapers indoctrinated them, & part of that was seeing black oily shadows, like Shepherd does in the dream sequences.
Like the video mentioned, Shepard is near Reapers multiple times over all 3 games, & I find it especially interesting that in the Arrival DLC for ME 2 they specifically want to capture Shepard, not kill him/her, so how can Shepard not had his/her head messed with?
Why set up Harbinger as a reaper boss if there was never going to be a boss fight at the end?
I get that what probably happened is the developers were not sure how to end the trilogy & were short on time & money & did the best they could, but the ending is still the worst part of ME 3 to me, which is a shame, bc I love that game, except for how it ends.
Start saying them, instead of him her
Shephard could've seen oily shadows because the queen told him about it and they feared indoctrination
Worth noting that Leviathan (at least in Legendary Edition, don't think this was the case in the OT DLC!) explicitly contradicts the Catalyst on its 'solution', stating that the Cycles and the Reapers is NOT the intelligence's solution, but rather its *means* of finding one. It basically sets up the galaxy as a sort of live experiment, with 'evolution as its tool'. Leviathan also says that they expect the Cycles to continue indefinitely until the intelligence "finds what it is searching for".
To me, the biggest thing about the IT wasn't really the idea that Shepard might be indoctrinated - I thought that was a neat notion, but relatively inconsequential - the bigger point is that the Catalyst *lies* and this should carry some implications for what is or isn't actually happening at the end there.
8:20 I think this is wrong. The reapers had observed countless generations of synthetics overthrowing or destroying organics. Shepard managed to get a peace deal with the geth, but countless other data points to conflict. Is that one example really what you would focus on? Also, this might have happened before only shortlived.
The catalyst also tried to activate the signal, but the keepers ignored it.
but he should have been able to detect that someone was altering the citadel in the first place. so this was still applied as a plot hole.
If we compare Shepard to Saren, who was using a Reaper as a flagship, Shepard hasn't been that exposed to Reapers and their indoctrination. I believe he was in the process of becoming indoctrinated but wasn't far enough along to be their puppet before the end.
Personally, I still like the theory with a few bits of head-canon.
Firstly, if we assume indoctrination is not some pseudo-magic proximity mind-control and instead nanobot puppetry all linked wirelessly in a complex networked hive mind (think borg meets replicants) then you can create some motives that, just about, make sense.
Secondly, if you assume the end goal of the Star Child was to force-evolve an organic that can interface with synthetics without being consumed by them - Star Child clearly prefers the Synthesis Ending - then the Cycle makes sense. If the Star Child believes that until such a species comes along that, a war of mutual annihilation between organics and synthetics is inevitable. It therefore wipes out any "high" lifeforms that reach that level without the synthesis ability and spares any lower ones that still have potential to get it.
Now combine the two and you get Shepherd shoved full on reaper nanobots at Virmire in ME1, but not being controlled by them. This gets the reapers attention and they have several more goes at shoving more and more nanobots into him (such as Arrival). These then go fully active when the Reapers arrive at the start of ME3.
As time goes on through ME3, Shepherd now has so many active nanobots that it becomes harder and harder to resist (the progressively weird dream sequences), but he/she manages it. Then at the end when their body gets blasted, they more fully enter the virtual world of the hive mind and everything after that (from Marauder Shields to the Illusive Man and the Star Child) is representations of the virtual world.
The hive mind as a physical representation would have been foreshadowed (if the Devs had thought of it) by the Geth Consensus level and the nanobot possession by the Cerberus/Lawson experiments.
Here's an idea for a better ending scene: Shepard and friends partyng on the beach and eating fried calamari with fries!
Well they really did make the scene with Shepard, Anderson and TIM look like Shepard is confronting the two beings that often are represented by a angel and a devil in other media. Maybe like the Geth Consensus things manifest in the mind as things familiar to you. Anderson often is a good man so Shepard manifested the good side of his mind as him for a reason. The evil being TIM one that is often doing heinous acts guised by good intentions. Also the black border of the screen during the confrontation matches the oily shadows of Shepard's nightmares. I read somewhere that you wake in nightmares you die in because your mind cannot know what happens after death. He/she dies in every dream sequence. You also forgot that Shepard was directly incapacitated by Object Roe the very same device that indoctrinated Amanda Kennson and the Alliance personnel that were part of her project. The catalyst confirms that TIM was indoctrinated. Shepard after hearing the control info from the catalyst. "So the Illusive Man was right?" Yes says the catalyst but he could never take control as we already controlled him. If anything was actual true that the Catalyst was telling Shepard it probably was that.
Indoctrination theory will always be my headcanon. If ME4 turns out to be great and explain stuff in detail, I will abandon IT and choose to enjoy the universe again. If ME4 turns out anything like Andromeda, I'm still lying there in the rubble fighting reapers in my head...
i feel ya, hah
i would rather the Mass effect that should not be mentioned, is never mentioned.
Well... there was a plot with eezo and mass effect destroying stars (Tali's recruit mission in ME2) which was supposed to me Reapers' reason to a) harvest civilizations thus preventing them from using eezo and unintetionally destroying stars and b) create new Reapers from harvested civilizations so there could be a new great mind to think of that major problem.
Plus, as the Catalyst said, it's main objective was to save organic life. Soooooo, here're Reapers - a whole nation (hi, Sovereign) within Leviathan-looking carapace.
If I remember this right, it was Drew Karpyshyn's original plot before he left BioWare.
yeah and they can stil use it if they are smart enough in ME4. They could state that the crucible shot destroyed only reapers and the problem still persist into the galaxy are "shepard" comes back. you could have have the reapers comeback in someway. maybe they had backups or a force coming from a distant galaxy.
@@roiking2740 I believe the next plot will be centered on dark energy and seeing that it's heavily implied that the next game will be dual galaxies and a big aspect of Andromeda is the scourge which is connected to dark energy; I think this is the route they'll take.
The only way that would work is if the Remnant were made by the reapers. Otherwise it would live to much of a hole in the story for it to function. @@jinx5005
(Sorry for the bad English) Hi I just finished me3 lge and I don't know why people say "oh Shepard crashes back to earth (London)" . In the scene we only see rubble and Shepar's chest breathing, then we see that the citadel was not 100% destroyed and is rebuilt, so I think Shepard is in the citadel at the end
You can also see the kid running into the same building with the ventilation shaft right before its hit by a reaper laser.
"Still lies there in the rubble", hah, made me think of the ME2 ending with the jump, but Shepard not quite making the jump, smacking his head on the edge and falls. "plot twist!"
Before the catalyst the star child was a modus operandi for the citadel. Think of it similar to the hub that transmits a single to the entire geth fleet. Combined with the catalyst, that modus operandi became self aware and became what we all refer to as the star child. I can see it not operating to alert the reapers independently as it needed sovereign to monitor the galaxies progress and report when the galaxy needs processing once more.
"Why does Anderson get there first?" He's not hobbling along on sheer will, probably reciting Mordin's "Had to be me."
I believe some parts of IT. Imo Shepard did fall under the Reapers influence somewhat, but was still fighting it. And the Starchild just gave us a bunch of bullshit, so we'll side with them. I always saw the Destroy ending as Shepard overcoming the indoctrination, and Blue&Green as Sgers succumbing to it.
I bet it's nowhere near as dark as the idea I had the other day... which was - if he died in Mass Effect 2 (what sort of monster would let that happen) - have Garrus become the final boss of Mass Effect 3. Either as a replacement to Marauder Shields or merged into the last Brute you fight with Grunt if he also died either in the Collector Base or the Rachni mission.
oof Garrus as the last boss? that'd suuuuck
@@MrHulthen well at least hardly any Legendary Edition players would have seen it since Garrus was the most likely to survive Mass Effect 2 (followed, bizarrely by Jacob) and Grunt came 3rd.
My head canon is, that this energy beam didn't physically transport shepard onto the Citadel, but created some kind of phsycological interface while the body actually stayed on the ground. Like in the Geth Server. The Proteans did alter the Citadels programming after all. I imagine that some unknown genius protean scientist had created that virtual space as some kind of Backdoor for poeple with a strong enough will to destroy the reapers. Without telling anyone. The true savior of the Galaxy. His name and story forgotten forever. Somewhere out there in an anonymous grave. I kinda like that Idea.
I believe Anderson made it to the Citadel and you either tell him how to destroy the reapers or you mislead him with synthesis and control.
Shepard waking up under rubble and Hackett receiving a report that someone made it to the citadel is what I'm basing it on. Also Anderson contacting you via radio and telling you he appeared on the other side of the Citadel and that it's shifting (we know from Hackett's report that one person made it through) also supports my hypothesis.
Further, why is it Shepard receives a bullet wound on the exact same spot as where Anderson was shot? Also when you choose destroy, you see an image of Anderson shooting the thing.
what if they all endings just a temporary solution until we get a final piece of second trilogy ? and , yeah , shepard can't be indoctrinated because he is an anomaly , that's the main reason why he is a threat for the reapers (am i only one who's played leviathan dlc ?)
@8:10
Because the surviving protheians on eos had managed to modify the keepers signals in one last fuck you before ultimately dieing out on the citadel. This caused the keepers to ignore the signals that normally would open up the citadel relay to the reapers causing sovergn to try and do it manually.
If you talk to the VI fully in the first game he explains some of this. Also I might be getting the planet name incorrect. Maybe it was illios ?
In my first runs on x-box without even thinking to look into the internet, i thought, the child was shepards vision of his coming death. Because he had his first run before my first play and chose blue. So a small part of him stayed. ( The child looks like a young version of the fast food male shep) Since the tech survived, shep traveled back to the becon in ME1 or his cyber reanimation
in ME2. Cause like us players he had to fix a few things.
So his dreams were subconcious hints to his fate - and his ability to go back. I liked the feeling, that shepard was doomed to die for good, as soon as he left the circle by choosing green or red.
And that as long as shepard chose blue, it was still the same game to me.
I also thougt, Anderson was an illusion by the illusive man in his final indoctrination attempt, an shepard shot this "soldier-part" of him by shooting himself ( same stomach wound).
And I felt depressed for two weeks in real life after my first ending (blue).
"We need some milk!"
I've always tought indoc theory is canon. So the destroy the reapers option was the only one I could think about. Even if the theory proves not to be what everyone tought, EDI, Legion, the Geth and other artificial Inteligence in the milky way died fully aware and self conscious. They were by all means persons. Alives and individual. And like other persons, such as the batarians or the turians, they gave everything they are to save the galaxy now and for future generations.
Came here for the theory, stayed for Marauder Shields. RIP Sweet Prince.
Bit late but the reason the keepers signal didn't work is explained by Vigil in ME1.
wait what when?
It is a cool theory. It partly makes sense since when we are talking to the Illusive Man at the end we can clearly see that Shepard is fighting it. So, my compromise is that it would have worked as a "bad" ending where the Reapers win.
I think it's a fun thing to think about, kind of like all the "Paul is Dead" hints supposedly hidden in songs. It becomes wait less funk if you try to say it's really true
Iirc the reason why the signal for the keepers didn’t work because the last few Protheans at the citadel changed or modified keeper signal.
Another bit of evidence for supporting the theory of Shepard being at the very least under the influence of Reapers is the fact that many indoctrinated characters in the series described the same types of dreams or visions he had, that of oily figures and voices. Also how the hell is he constantly around reaper artefacts without being affected at least a little bit?
i would tell you this much the indoctrination theory still makes more sense than the extended cut.
So the (comics) canon is that a reaper device gave the Elusive Man those eyes.
And a Shepard who lets his implants scarring grow, gets those >>exact same eyes
Big Dan released a really interesting video in regards of the ending recently with brand new info from ex bioware staff.
Right, i saw it! The Reaper Queen 😂
Was just awful
They don’t necessarily have to write a new ending, though they could. In me4 you could just force a destroy ending (even though that’s a major cop out and would anger a lot of people) because otherwise it would immediately say you were indoctrinated and show how the refusal ending plays out, with some extra scenes or something, then put you back to a scripted destroy ending. While it’s obviously a bad choice, it may be the best one they have for development because otherwise there’s a LOT of branching paths caused by such a massive change in the game. But I suppose we will see
Alright so gloss over how he/she is in space. No shields when shep is talking to the AI. How the kid keeps showing up. In the dream. The air vent. The end as the AI. and okay let's say that you do blow up the reapers. After the credits, shep takes a breath but wait. All the rubble is ROCK AND CONCRETE. Hmm. Where shep was, there was no rock or concrete. It was all metal.
My actual favorite ending is a mod. Where all that happened but shep is back on the Normandy with whatever love interest and shep puts Anderson on the plaque
really good video
Unpopular idea for ME4: Indoctrination Theory becomes Canon and the new Big Enemy is actually an indoctrinated Shepard.
Ngl it wouldve been funny if the londom teleport beam was just a death lazer set.up to look like a teleporter to lure anny remaining defenders out
I can shutdown the Theory by just saying that you can literally meet the makers of the Reapers in thr Leviathan DLC and this little kid which you meet in the room where you can choose the ending. It's AI using the Reapers as it's solution to end "Chaos". I believed in the Indoctrination theory before, but the Leviathans alone shut it down because they prooved that this "Intelligence" which Controlled the Reapers actually exists.
How does meeting the Leviathans shut down the theory?
I heard of that theory before a few times it will be a great story
This theory might’ve been debunked by some of the devs and will most likely be squashed even further in the next ME, but I can’t deny how compelling this entire discussion is. Chilling and eerie, almost like watching illuminati conspiracy stuff
I don't take it as canon or non-canon/head canon; as with literature, it's a way of reading the narrative. Bioware authored something with a certain intent, but what ultimately came of it differs from that intent. Bioware's intent can't explain all of what's present. It's one interpretation of the narrative, and, to this day, still valid enough to warrant discussion. Even with the extra content Bioware put forward after launch, they still created a narrative that plays out the way you described - mainly, indoctrination from the first Reaper encounter. We're seeing the story through Shepard's POV and outside of it (thus the third person and not first person POV), but it's not someone else's view of Shepard. Shepard views everyone else's view of him/her through his/her view of them, so it's impossible to tell if he/she is indoctrinated or not. How do you know if you're in the Matrix? Answer: you can't, because you're always in it. How do you know if you're indoctrinated if you're indoctrinated? Answer: you can't, because everything you do has to be seen through that.
I’m gonna be honest I never understood how the Indoctrination theory got so much traction.
Everyone complained that the original ending made all your choices meaningless, yet the indoctrination theory says why bother, because you lose anyway.
Unless u choose destroy then you win
@@tommark3015 How according to the theory it’s all in Shepard’s head so he’s still buried in the rubble on earth.
@@codyconnor6981 It depends, the theory has variations. Some people believe the synthesis or control endings mean Shepard was successfully indoctrinated, while destroy ending means he continued to fight off the indoctrination / indoctrination attempts.
I just finished the legendary edition a while ago and started consuming videos on the games and theories about the future one. After reading about the indoctornation theory a lot of it made sense but some of it didn't. For one, when you get the prothean VI from the cerberus base, it asks if you have come to take him from the indoctornated ones. If the VI had the ability to discern the effects of indoctornation, surely it would have commented on Shepard too. My headcanon however thinks that once you get seriously injured at the end and walk into the portal to citadel, you being dizzy from blood loss and fatigue lets the reapers turn on the heat. When I talked to the starchild and listened to the options he gave me, I literally thought "..but that's what Saren wanted, and he was wrong." and "...but I saw what became of the Illusive Man, that's not right either" and got the feeling that the two options wre just shams. As I see it, control would have ended with Shepard not really controlling the Reapers, but becoming one. And synthesis on the other hand felt like it stomped on everything Shepard stood for, free will and choice - taken away without the consent of those that got changed by it.
So when the solutions are presented. I saw it as: Control ended with indoctornation, Synthethis ended with indoctornation, the only viable option is the Destroy - and that's what I went with.
Yo are correct the Prothen VI would’ve noticed however Shepard isn’t indoctrinated - not yet. The Reapers are trying to indoctrinate him/her. 6 months before the invasion, Shepard came into contact with Object Rho ; this was the doorway into Shepard’s mind. All those dreams we see is the Reapers attempting to get control of Shepard. The last mins of the game after the Harbinger’s beam are according to the theory the Reapers last attempt to get Shepard. If you choose blue or green, you succumb. Choose red & Shepard resisted
Wasn't it explained that Shepard's will is too strong to be indoctrinated? Judging by the me4 trailer, there's only one good ending and it's perfect destroy ending, so other two endings might just been attempts to influence Shepard's will instead of controlling it.
This really is what I think happens. I think that Shepard is in the process of being indoctrinated after getting blasted by Harbinger. It doesn't make any sense for Anderson to make it to the Citadel behind [Shepard] and make it ahead of [Shepard], nor does it make any sense for Illusive Man to be the only other human there, since he never goes anywhere without his guards.
It makes perfect sense that the Control and Synthesis endings are Shepard being successfully indoctrinated whereas the Destroy ending is the one where you break free of the Reaper's control and wake up exactly where you fell on Earth. It also makes sense that [Shepard] is being indoctrinated throughout the whole game because of the Starchild appearing, disappearing, showing up in nightmares, and being the last thing Shepard interacts with.
There are alternate explanations that would explain those things. Neither Shepard, TIM or Anderson may have went up that beam physically. It's possible it's just their consciences. It sounds weird at first but if you look into it, the concept is very much present in the mass effect universe. If you choose control, Shepard dies because his conscience takes control of the reapers instead and leaves his body an empty shell. If you choose synthesis, his body is used as a basis so he has no body to return to. And if you choose destroy he returns to his body and draws breath like the ending shows.
When you look at it this way, it explains every inconsistency the indoctrination theory does, but it also doesn't ruin your final choice by stating there is only one correct answer. It's an out of body experience but the endings are exactly what they seem. No fucked up plot twist.
Marauder Shields is reincarnation of Saren. Saren tried to redeem his sins and save us from pain of me3 endings.
Saren always in our hearts :'(
I bought into the Indoctrination Theory at the time.. and it makes more sense than the original ME3 ending. With the Extended cut it seems that BioWare doubled down on their lame ending. So frankly I choose to think the Indoctrination Theory is real, not that I believe BioWare actually does.. Now BioWare gave tons of hints and spoilers that there would be a indoctrination conflict at some point, I believe even up to the middle of production of ME3, but it just got lost/dumped with the having to get the product out for EA who likely said? “WTF? Just have some big shoot out, flashy lights and end the damn thing so we can sell and ship it.. duh!” Type of conversation.
So yes, I just punch through the ending because frankly it means as little to me as it did the writers.
So yes, as my Shepard is gasping for air in the rubble, a new hero emerges.. grabs my rifle and Conrad Verner jumps into the beam, shoots up to the Citadel, turns on the Catalyst, Destroys the Reapers, and no worries about Edi or Mass Relays... the destruction of all of that was a lie from the brat in the Indoctrination attempt.. Real ending is Conrad being praised as the “True Hero” of Mass Effect but visits Shepard at the hospital as Shep is playing with his fidget widget talking about how he was going to save the Galaxy as Ashly just rolls her eyes and walks out.
Hahahaha
Conner and blasto will save the day
That damn Marauder Shields
I sort of like to think certain aspects are true. Like yes the reapers did try to indoctrinate Shepherd. Shepherd was in some kind of dream like state after getting beamed up. We don’t exactly know what that blue beam does maybe it acts like a neural uplink to the crucible or something. Which means Shepherd pretty much had full access to power on the crucible and the Reapers had to try one more time to trick him.
I think BioWare had some plans or do not want to fully reveal stuff (idk). I think that because some stuff is too compelling to ignore like how Shepherds eyes change to those very same cyber eyes that the illusive man had during Control and Synthesis endings or how the Crucible’s voice changes into something similar to what Harbinger sounds like during the Refusal ending.
I think BioWare can really somewhat recover from those bad endings by changing it up a little bit with stuff like this or retconning certain aspects.
Indoctrination theory is the only way to go for me4