Oh my God this video came at the perfect time! I was really trying hard to lock major second intervals properly in just intonation after finding how easy it is to hold major thirds, fifths and fourths-I asked 3 kids to hold a major chord and they sounded great with zero training-and still have a sore throat from singing for the past 5 days frolicking in the world of subharmonics created through harmony helped by overtones. The technique this video teaches is similar to the one I discovered when attempting to lock in the first difficult interval in the harmonic series, the harmonic seventh, except that in this this new method we sing a fifth above the bass, find the fifth above that again and stay there so that we are singing the interval of 9:8, or 9:4! Thank you sir! This is the first time I've ever been so satisfied and excited with a video, because this video is about EXACTLY what I've been chasing for a week!!!!!
Thanks so much. I just read the first chapters of Mathieu, and then found this which is superb and helpful. Hearing is quite different from reading...! (I don't have your experience or a double bass!)
Thanks Greg. The double bass I just borrowed as it makes the harmonics easier to hear and it's very visceral. I learnt practicing with an Indian tanpura.
I started to study this on my feet less lap / slide guitar, so interesting, I liken it to being able to see a new colour but only with sound.. Also interesting as I use quarter tones bends in my blues playing..
Playing pure intervals against a G drone on my lap guitar is interesting, I did it with a chart so I could tweak each interval to be pure tuned by learning how much to sharp or flat each one, I aim to mark them in the key of g, my understanding is that when youbchange chord it all shifts again lol, I will study it over one note first.
Great to find another awesome teacher inspired by Mathieu's Harmonic Experience! I finally finished reading through it after perhaps 5 years! One of my favourite books, and probably my number one book on music. Did you send these videos to him? I really like your explanations, demonstrations and clarity, without getting sidetracked. Just one little qualm I've got which seems to be catching on is calling this tuning system "just temperament", since this is really untempered tuning, and "tempering" or "temperament" is only really required when we want to fuse or approximate just intervals, e.g. "meantone temperament", which fuses the JI major seconds 10/9 and 9/8 together so that two identical meantones gives a nice 5/4. While meantone is fantastic for harmonic instruments like organs, harpsichords and lutes, in slow singing like this, almost any temperament or impurity can be recognised, and I really appreciate the slow precise way you're teaching just intonation. Singing this stuff feels great. From another JI-head (I play a lot of this stuff on my 56-tone keyboard the Lumatone, and have recently been exploring a nice 53-note 13-limit JI tuning)
I guess I always thought that temperament refers to a particular system of intonation, but perhaps I dont understand this term well enough, as it seems to be used interchangeably with intonation.
@@branandubh thanks for replying. Tempering something musically means bending the purity of intervals to make several things work at once. Another temperament that happens quite naturally in some Hindustani music which is otherwise pretty much in Just Intonation is that of the major sixth, Shuddha Dha, where it sometimes lies partway in between 5/3 (concordant with 4/3 Ma and 5/4 Ga) and 27/16 (concordant with 3/2 Pa and 9/8 Re). I've heard many singers pure on most other notes, but singing a tempered Dha, since perhaps 5/4 Ga and 9/8 Re are both present. I quite like the 27/16 sixth, and you can also hear it in Maqām Rast in the Middle East, but it has quite a different flavour to 5/3. Sometimes both 5/3 and 27/16 are needed, or both 10/9 and 9/8, and so the solution by many western musicians was meantone temperament. Just intonation requires no tempering, and interval flavour variety is indeed rather fruitful.
I just started learning dhrupad and just now learning about tempered notes vs pure intonation. Being an Indian raised in the west, I had no idea that western style tempered instruments such as the harmonium have been permeating Indian classical musical for a while now. It makes us lose the versatility of the ragas and instead becomes out of pitch and simplified for the western system. My teacher says that I sing SA slightly flat and it’s a result of being tuned to western instruments. Anyhow I’m working on getting the right pitch and getting rid of my vibrato!
Thankyou for sharing this and starting building the concepts from first principles! Appreciate your patience and calmness in your teaching and explanation style. Creating music isn't a huge part of my life but I found some inspiration in this and hope to apply some of the ideas this has inspired in some explorations and experiments.
Im glad it was useful Kim. It's quite a hard thing to explain, even though I feel that it's actually quite simple. My hope was that it could help open the investigation of how we tune intervals.
@@branandubh sir your video was awsome i would love to know about the just minor second, just minor 3rd and all the 12 just notes and singing them i would love it if u continue this course thanks for the knowledge
It's noteworthy that the 6th harmonic sounds so odd that (as far as I know) was discarded worldwide. Neither western Renaissantistic, nor Indian carnatic, nor turkish makam music set the minor seventh to 7/4, but they rather take some other ratio of the overtones series and extrapolate it to the root (e g, 9/5).
In your opinion, is The Harmonic Experience a good book for someone studying western style music on guitar or is it preferable to read a more classic western music theory book first?
It's written for musicians who ultimately want a deeper understanding of Western music. So it's probably not the right one to start with but it's the most profound book on music theory that i know of. The process of learning to sing in just temperament that I'm describing relates only to the first section of the book.
From your tutorial it is clear that 'pa' and fifth are same in both systems; but you are saying that 'ga' is not exactly same as major third, but a few cents flatter..... To me ,ga is sounding same as major third of 12 TET. A demo that juxtaposes both notes simultaneously could have helped........
All just tempered intervals are different to equal tempered ones, except for the octave. Pa means the 5th, but we're talking just tempered (2 cents higher). I use the Indian syllables so that the melodic terms (like 5th) dont get confused for harmonic terms (like 5th partial). After you internalise the just tempered system, then you can go and listen to the equal tempered notes again and get a surprise. Until then it's good to stay away from equal temperament for a little while.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Oh my God this video came at the perfect time! I was really trying hard to lock major second intervals properly in just intonation after finding how easy it is to hold major thirds, fifths and fourths-I asked 3 kids to hold a major chord and they sounded great with zero training-and still have a sore throat from singing for the past 5 days frolicking in the world of subharmonics created through harmony helped by overtones.
The technique this video teaches is similar to the one I discovered when attempting to lock in the first difficult interval in the harmonic series, the harmonic seventh, except that in this this new method we sing a fifth above the bass, find the fifth above that again and stay there so that we are singing the interval of 9:8, or 9:4!
Thank you sir! This is the first time I've ever been so satisfied and excited with a video, because this video is about EXACTLY what I've been chasing for a week!!!!!
This video is very helpful to understand the origin of the notes! Thanks for your kindness to share this with us 😊
Thanks Sir. Deep explanation, very helpful.
Waah ustaad 🙏
Thanks so much. I just read the first chapters of Mathieu, and then found this which is superb and helpful. Hearing is quite different from reading...! (I don't have your experience or a double bass!)
Thanks Greg. The double bass I just borrowed as it makes the harmonics easier to hear and it's very visceral. I learnt practicing with an Indian tanpura.
I started to study this on my feet less lap / slide guitar, so interesting, I liken it to being able to see a new colour but only with sound.. Also interesting as I use quarter tones bends in my blues playing..
enjoyed it very much! Looking forward to the next tutorial!
I love you for this video.
Playing pure intervals against a G drone on my lap guitar is interesting, I did it with a chart so I could tweak each interval to be pure tuned by learning how much to sharp or flat each one, I aim to mark them in the key of g, my understanding is that when youbchange chord it all shifts again lol, I will study it over one note first.
Over tones on that instrument ar e like a throat singing kind of tone, rich with over tones.
Great to find another awesome teacher inspired by Mathieu's Harmonic Experience! I finally finished reading through it after perhaps 5 years! One of my favourite books, and probably my number one book on music. Did you send these videos to him?
I really like your explanations, demonstrations and clarity, without getting sidetracked.
Just one little qualm I've got which seems to be catching on is calling this tuning system "just temperament", since this is really untempered tuning, and "tempering" or "temperament" is only really required when we want to fuse or approximate just intervals, e.g. "meantone temperament", which fuses the JI major seconds 10/9 and 9/8 together so that two identical meantones gives a nice 5/4. While meantone is fantastic for harmonic instruments like organs, harpsichords and lutes, in slow singing like this, almost any temperament or impurity can be recognised, and I really appreciate the slow precise way you're teaching just intonation. Singing this stuff feels great.
From another JI-head (I play a lot of this stuff on my 56-tone keyboard the Lumatone, and have recently been exploring a nice 53-note 13-limit JI tuning)
I guess I always thought that temperament refers to a particular system of intonation, but perhaps I dont understand this term well enough, as it seems to be used interchangeably with intonation.
@@branandubh thanks for replying. Tempering something musically means bending the purity of intervals to make several things work at once.
Another temperament that happens quite naturally in some Hindustani music which is otherwise pretty much in Just Intonation is that of the major sixth, Shuddha Dha, where it sometimes lies partway in between 5/3 (concordant with 4/3 Ma and 5/4 Ga) and 27/16 (concordant with 3/2 Pa and 9/8 Re). I've heard many singers pure on most other notes, but singing a tempered Dha, since perhaps 5/4 Ga and 9/8 Re are both present. I quite like the 27/16 sixth, and you can also hear it in Maqām Rast in the Middle East, but it has quite a different flavour to 5/3.
Sometimes both 5/3 and 27/16 are needed, or both 10/9 and 9/8, and so the solution by many western musicians was meantone temperament. Just intonation requires no tempering, and interval flavour variety is indeed rather fruitful.
@@camtaylormusic I guess that makes sense when you consider what the word originally means in metallurgy.
I just started learning dhrupad and just now learning about tempered notes vs pure intonation. Being an Indian raised in the west, I had no idea that western style tempered instruments such as the harmonium have been permeating Indian classical musical for a while now. It makes us lose the versatility of the ragas and instead becomes out of pitch and simplified for the western system. My teacher says that I sing SA slightly flat and it’s a result of being tuned to western instruments. Anyhow I’m working on getting the right pitch and getting rid of my vibrato!
I have a query. We talked about S P G and R Ni notes coming from the 2 strings tuned to S and P. But what about the other 7 notes?
Thankyou for sharing this and starting building the concepts from first principles! Appreciate your patience and calmness in your teaching and explanation style. Creating music isn't a huge part of my life but I found some inspiration in this and hope to apply some of the ideas this has inspired in some explorations and experiments.
Im glad it was useful Kim. It's quite a hard thing to explain, even though I feel that it's actually quite simple. My hope was that it could help open the investigation of how we tune intervals.
@@branandubh sir your video was awsome i would love to know about the just minor second, just minor 3rd and all the 12 just notes and singing them i would love it if u continue this course
thanks for the knowledge
It's noteworthy that the 6th harmonic sounds so odd that (as far as I know) was discarded worldwide. Neither western Renaissantistic, nor Indian carnatic, nor turkish makam music set the minor seventh to 7/4, but they rather take some other ratio of the overtones series and extrapolate it to the root (e g, 9/5).
Thank you!!! 🙏🎶🎶
In your opinion, is The Harmonic Experience a good book for someone studying western style music on guitar or is it preferable to read a more classic western music theory book first?
It's written for musicians who ultimately want a deeper understanding of Western music. So it's probably not the right one to start with but it's the most profound book on music theory that i know of. The process of learning to sing in just temperament that I'm describing relates only to the first section of the book.
From your tutorial it is clear that 'pa' and fifth are same in both systems; but you are saying that 'ga' is not exactly same as major third, but a few cents flatter..... To me ,ga is sounding same as major third of 12 TET. A demo that juxtaposes both notes simultaneously could have helped........
All just tempered intervals are different to equal tempered ones, except for the octave. Pa means the 5th, but we're talking just tempered (2 cents higher). I use the Indian syllables so that the melodic terms (like 5th) dont get confused for harmonic terms (like 5th partial). After you internalise the just tempered system, then you can go and listen to the equal tempered notes again and get a surprise. Until then it's good to stay away from equal temperament for a little while.