I always wonder what would have happened if Lu Su had lived another 10-15 years. Maybe he could have maintained the peace. The battling between Wu and Shu made Wei's eventual victory inevitable.
How I wish for the alternative timeline of Sun Ce not getting assassinated. The internal conflict that arose from his assassination completely blocked Wu from any meaningful expansion until Chibi and by that point Cao Cao has gotten way too strong. I’d also wonder how the Sun-Liu alliance would even go under his rule. Sucks that it’s a bit too far to in the future to get a somewhat accurate prediction on how that would go.
I'm gonna try and get into the mindset of an ancient warlord. Lu Meng will pass away not long after the defeat of Guan Yu, I think he had started to feel the illness's early stages and wanted one last victory to further cement his reputation as the best general of, what he definitely knew, will become Wu, Guan Yu was just the easiest target for that. Furthermore, although most Wu officials, and to a certain extent, Sun Quan, were content to let bygones be bygones with Liu Bei, Lu Meng might have felt spiteful, as he was the one to conquer some of the areas that were returned to Shu, and he definitely hoped that those would have been his, along with what he was currently holding. And finally, I think Lu Meng, either saw the cracks beginning to form, with how Sun Quan handled Hefei or, and most likely, had just stopped caring about the long term success of his lord, why should he? He was already powerful beyond anything he could have ever hoped for. So attacking Guan Yu was less of a strategic plan, and more of a financial one, basically an excuse to secure more for the next generation of his family.
Wu gave up the claim (not actually control) of a front-line commandery, in return of 2 cushy commanderies that don't require much to protect. Guan Yu is the buffer, the free protection of Wu's western flank that Sun Quan and Lu Meng casually toss away for a flash of glory, and then back to Hefei he went. Make as much sense as the US declared war on Canada and Denmark during WW2 to secure its Atlantic convoy route.. It's either Lu Meng really need to go study more before hatching a grand strategy, or all the victories and promotions in quick succession finally got into Lu Meng's head - he got cocky and wanted a great victory to forever cement his brilliance. Instead, he is remembered as the best strategist of Wei, for he is the mastermind for the doom of both Wu and Shu
In hindsight thats pretty easy to say. At the time, given the current situation and the fact that the people involded did not have 100% information its plausible to attack what seems to be an easy target.
It is really hard to predict. 1. Help Liu Bei beat Cao Cao, then fight Liu Bei (most likely lose). 2. Help Liu Bei beat Cao Cao, then take a Han position and basically enjoy prestige but no real power. Have to worry that Liu Bei will kill you due to your influence in the south. Best case scenario, you live in the capital but is watched all the time. 3. Don't help Liu Bei, and Liu Bei beats Cao Cao. Liu Bei will come attack you and you will probably lose. 4. Don't help Liu Bei, and Liu Bei extends you a surrender term. You go back to point 2.
Liu Bei broke his promise by not returning Jiang Ling to Wu after conquering Yizhou. Sun Quan asking Liu Bei to return Jiang Ling several time. Lu Meng's action may be was not good, but there was no other alternative way to return Jiang Ling to Wu.
That was never used as a premise for this attack historically. They already fought over that disagreement and then signed a treatise and split up the Jing Province two years prior. Sun Quan got Changsha and Guiyang back, Liu Bei gets to keep Nan, Wuling, and Lingling. Let's not twist things.
Wu gave up Nan, and get Changsha and Guiyang. It was 2 for 1 trade. There was a clear backstabbing by Wu. Thats why most of historians favored Guan Yu over Lu Meng.
@@herbangm.naibaho5405 Wu's contribution was greater in defeating Cao Cao at Chibi. After that Zhou Yu fought Cao Ren to seize Jiang Ling. When Cao Ren and Zhou Yu fought over Jiang Ling, Liu Bei took the opportunity to capture Chang Sha, Wu Ling, Ling Ling and Gui Yang. Chang Sha, Wu Ling, Ling Ling and Gui Yang were certain to fall into Zhou Yu's hands when Jiang Ling could be captured because those 4 comaanderies were separate from the other Cao Cao regions. It was not fair because Wu spent it resources to defeat Cao Cao at Chi Bi and defeat Cao Ren in Jiang Ling, but Liu Bei took the prize that should have belonged to Zhou Yu.
1. Those four commanderies surrendered to Liu Bei mainly because those administrators worked for Liu Biao and was not replaced by Cao Cao yet since Cao Cao never got to go south. They picked Liu Bei because they felt he and mostly Liu Qi were legitimate in inheriting the Jing Province after Cao Cao's defeat at Chibi. 2. The reason why Zhou Yu picked the Nan commandery to attack over the four in the south is because the four in the south had very little population, little economic value, and would not offer a launchpad to continue their control of the Yangtze River. 3. Why should Sun Quan or Zhou Yu get to take Jing Province territories after defeating Cao Cao at Chibi? Liu Bei and Liu Qi have much more claim on the Jing Province and it was not like Chibi was fought over the Jing Province. 4. More importantly, Chibi was fought to stop Cao Cao from sailing south and finishing off Sun Quan. Now you defended your home and your next phase is to take advantage of Cao Cao when he was weak to claim new lands. It is not like those land were now empty after Chibi and is just part of the spoils of victory to be divided according to how much effort you put in at Chibi. 5. Finally, nothing should belong to anyone. You are either strong enough to take it and hold or you are not.
@@ericfir8651 1. the real prize of Chibi is that both Shu and Wu can live to fight another day 2. Part of the reason the 4 commanderies fell so quickly is that they were former Liu Biao territory, and Liu Bei is seen as the next leader of Liu Biao faction. 3. In such time of chaos, it doesn't matter who gets it first - the only thing matters is who can hold it. Territory changes hands all the time. Nan commander is costly for Wu to hold, so they "loan" it to Shu to hold and act as a buffer zone against Wei.
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Sun Quan got beat up so hard in hefei that he decided breaking an alliance was easier than defeating Zhang Liao
I always wonder what would have happened if Lu Su had lived another 10-15 years. Maybe he could have maintained the peace. The battling between Wu and Shu made Wei's eventual victory inevitable.
"The Crossing in White" is one of the most fire names you've ever thought of (I know the historical precedence but its still sounds badass)
Lu Meng's backstabbing ultimately brings about Wei's(Jin) victory.
How I wish for the alternative timeline of Sun Ce not getting assassinated. The internal conflict that arose from his assassination completely blocked Wu from any meaningful expansion until Chibi and by that point Cao Cao has gotten way too strong. I’d also wonder how the Sun-Liu alliance would even go under his rule. Sucks that it’s a bit too far to in the future to get a somewhat accurate prediction on how that would go.
5:15 in a sense lü meng did unconsciously predict his own mortality
I'm gonna try and get into the mindset of an ancient warlord.
Lu Meng will pass away not long after the defeat of Guan Yu, I think he had started to feel the illness's early stages and wanted one last victory to further cement his reputation as the best general of, what he definitely knew, will become Wu, Guan Yu was just the easiest target for that. Furthermore, although most Wu officials, and to a certain extent, Sun Quan, were content to let bygones be bygones with Liu Bei, Lu Meng might have felt spiteful, as he was the one to conquer some of the areas that were returned to Shu, and he definitely hoped that those would have been his, along with what he was currently holding. And finally, I think Lu Meng, either saw the cracks beginning to form, with how Sun Quan handled Hefei or, and most likely, had just stopped caring about the long term success of his lord, why should he? He was already powerful beyond anything he could have ever hoped for. So attacking Guan Yu was less of a strategic plan, and more of a financial one, basically an excuse to secure more for the next generation of his family.
sometimes you just get the urge to play map painter, I can't say I wouldn't have done the same.
In my opinion, this screwed over any chances Wu and Shu had. Lü Ming was so cool before this.
Dudu detected.
Wu gave up the claim (not actually control) of a front-line commandery, in return of 2 cushy commanderies that don't require much to protect. Guan Yu is the buffer, the free protection of Wu's western flank that Sun Quan and Lu Meng casually toss away for a flash of glory, and then back to Hefei he went. Make as much sense as the US declared war on Canada and Denmark during WW2 to secure its Atlantic convoy route..
It's either Lu Meng really need to go study more before hatching a grand strategy, or all the victories and promotions in quick succession finally got into Lu Meng's head - he got cocky and wanted a great victory to forever cement his brilliance. Instead, he is remembered as the best strategist of Wei, for he is the mastermind for the doom of both Wu and Shu
In hindsight thats pretty easy to say. At the time, given the current situation and the fact that the people involded did not have 100% information its plausible to attack what seems to be an easy target.
Hypothetical question here. What if Liu Bei miraculously beat Tso Tso. What would then be Wu's fate?
Well if you cant beat the weaker one in Shu then how would you beat Wei? It's like when Song teamup with Yuan instead of Jin
It is really hard to predict.
1. Help Liu Bei beat Cao Cao, then fight Liu Bei (most likely lose).
2. Help Liu Bei beat Cao Cao, then take a Han position and basically enjoy prestige but no real power. Have to worry that Liu Bei will kill you due to your influence in the south. Best case scenario, you live in the capital but is watched all the time.
3. Don't help Liu Bei, and Liu Bei beats Cao Cao. Liu Bei will come attack you and you will probably lose.
4. Don't help Liu Bei, and Liu Bei extends you a surrender term. You go back to point 2.
So Lu Xun had no part in this? Faking taking lu meng place in his absence?
Ah next episode got it
He marched the army along and also attacked positions like Zigui but overall there wasn’t too much fighting in this campaign.
Liu Bei broke his promise by not returning Jiang Ling to Wu after conquering Yizhou.
Sun Quan asking Liu Bei to return Jiang Ling several time.
Lu Meng's action may be was not good, but there was no other alternative way to return Jiang Ling to Wu.
That was never used as a premise for this attack historically. They already fought over that disagreement and then signed a treatise and split up the Jing Province two years prior. Sun Quan got Changsha and Guiyang back, Liu Bei gets to keep Nan, Wuling, and Lingling. Let's not twist things.
Wu gave up Nan, and get Changsha and Guiyang. It was 2 for 1 trade. There was a clear backstabbing by Wu. Thats why most of historians favored Guan Yu over Lu Meng.
@@herbangm.naibaho5405 Wu's contribution was greater in defeating Cao Cao at Chibi. After that Zhou Yu fought Cao Ren to seize Jiang Ling. When Cao Ren and Zhou Yu fought over Jiang Ling, Liu Bei took the opportunity to capture Chang Sha, Wu Ling, Ling Ling and Gui Yang.
Chang Sha, Wu Ling, Ling Ling and Gui Yang were certain to fall into Zhou Yu's hands when Jiang Ling could be captured because those 4 comaanderies were separate from the other Cao Cao regions. It was not fair because Wu spent it resources to defeat Cao Cao at Chi Bi and defeat Cao Ren in Jiang Ling, but Liu Bei took the prize that should have belonged to Zhou Yu.
1. Those four commanderies surrendered to Liu Bei mainly because those administrators worked for Liu Biao and was not replaced by Cao Cao yet since Cao Cao never got to go south. They picked Liu Bei because they felt he and mostly Liu Qi were legitimate in inheriting the Jing Province after Cao Cao's defeat at Chibi.
2. The reason why Zhou Yu picked the Nan commandery to attack over the four in the south is because the four in the south had very little population, little economic value, and would not offer a launchpad to continue their control of the Yangtze River.
3. Why should Sun Quan or Zhou Yu get to take Jing Province territories after defeating Cao Cao at Chibi? Liu Bei and Liu Qi have much more claim on the Jing Province and it was not like Chibi was fought over the Jing Province.
4. More importantly, Chibi was fought to stop Cao Cao from sailing south and finishing off Sun Quan. Now you defended your home and your next phase is to take advantage of Cao Cao when he was weak to claim new lands. It is not like those land were now empty after Chibi and is just part of the spoils of victory to be divided according to how much effort you put in at Chibi.
5. Finally, nothing should belong to anyone. You are either strong enough to take it and hold or you are not.
@@ericfir8651 1. the real prize of Chibi is that both Shu and Wu can live to fight another day
2. Part of the reason the 4 commanderies fell so quickly is that they were former Liu Biao territory, and Liu Bei is seen as the next leader of Liu Biao faction.
3. In such time of chaos, it doesn't matter who gets it first - the only thing matters is who can hold it. Territory changes hands all the time. Nan commander is costly for Wu to hold, so they "loan" it to Shu to hold and act as a buffer zone against Wei.
Traitor wu
Sun Quan the mediocre kid that was in over his head