As a Muslim Turk, I am astonished and was unaware of such negative views towards the Ottomans. What harm did the Ottomans do to Muslims? At that time, there was no oil or natural gas, so we can't say they exploited them. If the Ottoman Empire had been a colonial power like those in the West, it would have exploited, destroyed, and assimilated far more than they did. You can see how tolerant the Ottomans were towards other cultures by the fact that the forty-odd nations that separated from them still speak their own languages today and have not lost their cultures. Every state has its mistakes; only Allah is perfect. We Turks have a saying: "One should look at what a person does, not at their words." The remnants of the Ottomans in these countries are the inns, mosques, madrasahs, bridges, and beautiful architectural works.
Not sure what it means to be a colonial state like the West, nor did all the western nations that colonized spread their languages. Nor am I sure what the importance of that is
@@BirinEri We are seeing the results of other Muslims actions against Ottomans in Palestine. Our grandparents were providing them safety. Ottomans showed to the world how tolerance to the others should be like. Arabs have never accepted us like Muslims. It is their mistake.
@@AsscherMazzelaarlsnguage is very important for the colonization ,they teach very easily harmful things ,and british colony wvorkers say ottoman empire very bad for you ,they kill you ,why they say this ?.similar things et.c. also the french colony workers ,they kill tunisian and near naighbour country people .for the colonisation
Dr Ahmed’s response to the “decline” question is spot on. The Second French Empire is never described as being in a state of decline culminating in its destruction at the hands of the nascent German Empire in 1871. The same applies to the British, German and Russian Empires. This is because these countries’ respective historiography adheres to a sense of continuity with their past and present. Thus, no matter how many crises they underwent (similar to the Ottoman Empire), one could not describe them as “declining” as others would just point to their present state, even though they are entirely different countries from a few centuries ago. The fact that the Ottoman Empire outlasted most of them is never taken into consideration. Instead it is merely viewed through the lens of perpetual stagnation - a narrative that collapses when one thinks about it for more than 30 seconds.
Agreed, however I think the dynamic is setup simply because the Ottoman Empire, no longer IS.... In other words, NOT present. It can only be viewed in a retrograde fashion. Hard to have a "sense of continuity with past and present" when it's only the past that is... present... Now were circumstances different, and the Ottoman Empire still existed... Well, we wouldn't be having this convo now would we? lol
@@snakejuce What exactly is the difference between the Ottoman empire no longer existing and the holy roman empire no longer existing but is inevitably linked to Germany and German history. Or the Roman empire no longer existing but having a sense of continuity with Italians and Greeks. I still think you're onto something though. I would say that rather than it simply being the ottoman empire no longer existing, the people who would see themselves as a continuation or their successors stopped existing (at least politically). Which is why Turks who try to relink their past to the Ottoman empire and rekindle a sense of being one of its successor states often get accused of being "neo-Ottomans" as a derogatory term by people who don't want that to happen.
I want to ask the Arabs who do not like and hate the Ottoman Empire. If there were no Ottomans and Turks, how many times would you have been invaded in 800 years? If there were no Turks, how would you endure the Crusader oppression that occurred and could happen, and how would you protect your language and religion? Yes, we all saw what happened when the Ottoman Empire collapsed. Although the Ottoman Empire was not perfect, the lands it had lived in for centuries were perfectly protected from European occupation.
Just like Arabs did for a thousand years, turks did nothing but send the entire region into backwardness while they're working in German factories in the millions. You mass murdered and committed mass genocides against everyone from the Greeks to Armenians to Arabs alike. Destroyed and razed down entire cities such as Diriyah. Even after 100 years of turk occupation we are spending over $62 Billion USD to rebuild one single city that was destroyed by the occupation. Still today you continue to commit war crimes and support terrorists across Syria to destabilise the country and take over Kurdish areas to stop them from independence.
The Ottoman Empire was the best example of Islamic unity. Do not allow Western historians to tarnish the Ottoman Empire with slander. Muslims need to unite again. 2 billion Muslims just watch a handful of cruel Jews massacring Muslims, like what happened in Gaza. This is shameful. If the Ottomans were alive, such a thing would never have happened.
How could Ottomans be such negative and go on for 600 years? Arabic, Persian or other origin muslims are so busy learning their own history from the west & getting ashamed about the defeats of their own emperialisms that they simply cannot see the truth of some great aspects of Ottomans. Modernity & industrialisation is based on race & not sharing. Ottomons were the symbol of another perspective of life, which is very widely based on İslam. It was about the unseen war of the two worlds and up to now anti-islamist seem to "win" under the form of capitalism. (But it wont last long because its not sustainable) Coffee is very bad for your health by the way, it's promoted by the west as a substance to abuse actually. The origins also lies on the base of dark ages of colonialism & in some areas it still does. It's a big industry making white supremist colonialists richer. Do you know that in the spiritual world today (I mean new age spiritualism) coffee is seen as the tool of the dark system to captivate human beings minds? Spiritual people never use it before or after meditations & and it is advised to give up drinking coffee if one's an addict. I guess ulema banning coffe was intuitively seeing the truth about it. You have to think wider, dear İslamic brothers & sisters...You have to make peace with & see the truths & beauty in your & Ottoman history. Otherwise they'll go on using your power more.
It's quite fascinating that Western historians choose to obscure the fact that it was the Ottomans who brought an end to the Roman Empire. 'Byzantine' is a made-up name; the official name was the Eastern Roman Empire, which fell in 1453. It's understandable that Italian historians, in particular, might find this a bitter pill to swallow.
Spot on my friend, it was Western Holy Roman Empire, but a butthurt western(German) historians named it Byzantines in 16th century! Think about it, it was happened in 1453 and after 100 yrs, a German historian called it Byzantine, and others followed it! Even today, some Western toxicated Muslim/Turkish media/academy calls it Byzantine! Such a lowlifeness! Indeed, when you browse into the Archives of The Eastern Roman Empire, you cannot even find a paper where “Byzantine” name is written! :). Byzantine name is produced by westerners, after 100 yrs of the fall of the E. Roman Empire to Ottomans in 1453, just to censor their holy empire is captured by a Muslim Ottomans!
@@thewayofbiutze3899 exactly, Westerners couldn’t stand that Ottomans captured their holy empire, the Eastern Roman Empire. Fall of the empire is at 1453, however they started to call it Byzantine first in the mid of 1500s by German historians. Because their holy empire shouldn’t have captured by a Muslim Turkish empire. Moreover, you cannot even find a paper in Eastern Roman archives that “Byzantine” term was used. They never call themselves Byzantine :).
О какой горькой пилюле ты говоришь К моменту захвата Византии, империя была уже мертва изнутри и погрязла во внутренних конфликтах. А моментом смерти Византии был 1204-й год, когда Константинополь захватили и разграбили крестоносцы. Какое дело западным историком до православной Византии, они никогда не считали её частью западного мира, Византия занимала такое же место для запада, которое занимает и Россия, это антагонист и абсолютно не имеет значения что это христианская страна, на неё не распространялась власть католической церкви. What a bitter pill are you talking about? By the time Byzantium was captured, the empire was already dead from the inside and mired in internal conflicts. And the moment of death of Byzantium was the year 1204, when Constantinople was captured and plundered by the crusaders. What does a Western historian care about Orthodox Byzantium, they never considered it part of the Western world, Byzantium had the same importance for the West as Russia, it is an antagonist and it absolutely does not matter that it is a Christian country, the power of the Catholic Church did not extend to it.
Westerners must be furious that both Roman empires were destroyed by Turks or Turkic tribes, so they play with historical facts and try to cool down. - Huns were Turks! - Typical lying western historian: Noooo, they were mixed tribes, they might even been Mongols... - Turks destroyed the Eastern Roman Empire. - Typical hypocritical western pseudo-historian: Nooooo, that was Byzantium. blah blah blah.
What makes him special in my view is the ability to place our history within the Islamic framework and present Ottoman narrative from Islamic worldview. Checkout his previous podcast on this channel specifically on the printing press issue. You'll know what I mean.
His point about certain questions being predicated on assumptions is a vital one. I've come across many online who only bring up the Ottoman Empire in the negative unfortunately. Worse yet is when an alleged "Muslim" does this. The colonized mentality is so strong that this person who believes they have transcended beyond the "kuffar" speaks and thinks exactly like the kuffar.
So you want ppl to come at Ottoman history from a favourable view? Isn't that just the other side of the assumptions you do not favour? lol Here is what you need to know. The Ottomans were overthrown by their own Muslim and Non Muslim subjects who did not wish to be ruled by them. None of the two dozen odd countries from Tunisia to Serbia want to be ruled by the Turks again. And after ISIS, any residual support for Caliphate is gone. That's why ppl like you are on the internet talking about this sort of thing. Not in real life nor taking any substantive action to bring this nonsense imperialism about on the ground. I guess you saw what happened to Mohammad Emwazi and Shameema Begum? lol
There are few modern Arab nations who's national struggles were based on being not the Turks/Ottomans, so understandably, Ottomans have been given fairly negative PR for decades in those countries, so it's understandable. On the other hand Ottomans have superstars status in Southeast Asia. As a Pakistani, when I visited Top Kapi, and Fatih Mosque in Istanbul, my eyes were filled with tears coming from pride and joy I felt being surrounded by the history of this once powerful and magnificent Islamic state.
@@f1azizbhai they won’t give you citizenship nor do they accept Muslim asylum seekers or refugees..you are as always basking in borrowed glory..what have they given you …nothing..your Arab brothers don’t allow non Arab Muslims to get citizenship in their countries too and you guys keep on shouting Muslim ummah…Turks won’t allow you to enter their country without any visas…so no point in bragging about something which is not yours…peace bhai
@@Hitchens-k9s It's just not possible for Indians to not feel personally insulted when they come across a post from a Pakistani, even if that post has nothing to do with Indians. Why can't you mind your business and spare me your lecture as if I needed it?
@@Hitchens-k9sWe are united by Islam. If some people have become ignorant it doesn't really matter. We don't crave for people's attention, it's secondary. We love Allah !!!
I wish I knew the Thinking Muslim platform when I was living in Istanbul. Çok teşekkürler for this amazing content and the wonderful guests you have been hosting!
The opening question of "who wrote this history?" Is what all history classes should be based on. It's hiSTORY. Who wrote it and who that narrative benefits are such essential questions.
Perfect comment. I love history and I started to mainly read Primary sources followed by an experts view of said source. It really gave me insight, not always on what happened, but certainly who the person was who wrote that source. It is crucial to include the context of History, who are we getting our knowledge from, what was his bias, what was he trying to achieve by writing this source? Great example is Hernan Cortez. Through his letters to the Spanish King which spread through Europe we today have a completely wrong narrative of the Conquest of the Aztecs. Cortez didn’t write a History, he wrote legal arguments and lied because he was in a troubled legal position and needed to justify himself. But his lies are believed all around the world. Context is crucial
Dr Yakoob Ahmed is a gem and my favourite scholar on Ottoman history. The best thing is that he approaches the discussion from an orthadox Sunni position and does not romanticize
Is that because he is saying what you want to hear? lol Lets get a memeber of the British National party to talk about the glories of the British Empire that bought so much 'civilisation' to India?!? If you support Ottomanism then do you also support French, Russian and Japanese Imperilaism too?
@@ankhmorpok1497it's more because he doesn't do that, which the person you're replying to said, if you actually bothered reading before replying. Also you evidently haven't heard the podcast, and so all we're being presented is brain farts
@@ankhmorpok1497 I get a sense of sarcasm in your comment at the same time I am not sure if you can really compare an academician to a politician. Read your own comment again about British bringing civilization to the subcontinent.
@@ankhmorpok1497this is an interesting comment that we need to unpack. Fact is the British do get to tell the story of their past, so do the French and the world consumes this. But somehow the Ottomans and even the Japanese to a lesser extent should not have this privilege? Please tell me what in your view makes this privilege only apply to western civilization? Most have no issues consuming their version of their history with people like you lambasting them for wanting to consume it. So tell what in your eyes makes the Brits and French so special that they should have privileges you will fight to ensure others don’t.
My grandfather was the son of a poor Siberian, coal minor. He was taken to the palace and educated to become a surgeon and a captain in the army. He rose through the ranks, learned to lecture in 7 languages( in surgery). Met walli to the sultan, who was also the military gov. of Yugoslavia. His sons, top rank pashas. My grandfather, married into the family. He became the chief of hospital, chief of surgery and surgeon to Atatürk. He was sponsored by Rockefeller to help create the Sloan Kettering Institute. His daughter, my aunt married the Turkish sublime General commander of NATO forces, General of ground forces and National security advisor. Pagalı ibrahim, was a poor fisherman son but became the right hand of Suleiman, the magnificent. The Ottomans would collect children from the poorest and give them a portal to the heights of world power. Part of the collapse was that the Pasha became greedy and power-hungry, like the Armenian Pasha, who began arming his own people, and killing his own people to create his own state.
@@mrspalestine You are judging those times with today's values. At that time, they were especially willing to give their children and prayed to their gods that their children would be chosen. I know it sounds strange but that's how it was. For example, let me give another example from the Serbs. Sokollu Mehmed Pasha stood out as a master politician during his 14-year term as Grand Vizier and played a primary role in many military and political successes. Another distinctive feature of his is that he was never dismissed from any of his posts during his 60 years of state service and was always assigned to a higher position. At that time, a British or French ambassador would wait at his door for at least 5-6 months to meet with this man. After undergoing certain training (speaking properly, showing respect, including bowing your head. Without eye contact), you could talk to the Grand Vizier. The second most powerful man in the world was a Serb. The first was a Turk. Suleiman the Magnificent. Of course, we did not call him a Serb and did not discriminate based on race. The Ottomans never did anything like that. As a Turk, that Serb is my ancestor in flesh and blood.
@@mrspalestine If you do not believe in Muslim sources, I recommend you to read the books of Greek Ordinary Professor Dimitri Kitsikis. He introduces himself as an Ottoman, not a Greek. He explains these historical issues so well that you will be surprised.
Listening to this incredible dialogue, I realized how whitewashed I am. I am trying to have a paradigm shift. Muslims need to learn our history from our own people. Next, we need great PR to disseminate this true knowledge.
Lets also try not to brown-wash the history. Let history be the history without any political agenda. As a Turkish person, most of the things discussed are incorrect, driven by a political ümmet agenda.
I have a Turkish friend with a PHd in Political Theory and he is soo frustrated that he must recite HIS Turkish history through the lens of Europeans, otherwise he won't get published or hired to teach anywhere outside Turkey. Western academia doesn't want to understand Turkish history through a Turkish lens.
Though the Ottoman Empire has fallen, its spirit endures, like an ember beneath the ashes. In the heart of every believer, the dream of unity stirs, undimmed by time. One day, we will rise, bound by faith, to gather the scattered, and reunite the ummah once more, rekindling the flame that once lit the world 🇹🇷🕋 Ya Allah, Bismillah
I was carrying my stuff into my new home from the van and the nexy door neigbor approached to say hi. Turned out he was Kosovan. When he found out i was Turkish he got upset and said we occupied them for years. Long story short i asked his name; Alex, his religion, Christian his language Albanian. I said if the Ottomans occupied you you would have been a muslim called Mehmet and we would be doing this conversation in Turkish. He left hating me more. I dont condone invations but ask a black person or a Palestinian the meaning of invation and occupation.
I am a historian by profession and I can say that his historic and particularly ottoman worldwiev is so clear of prejudictions. A very learned scholar.
Coffee was actually a part of marital law. It was in the law books written that, If the husband could not or did not provide coffee for the wife, it was grounds for divorce in Ottoman Turkish Law. The ban of coffee was a Christian Pope because it was considered a muslim drink. When Ottomans withdrew from the battlefield, this bean was left behind. It was illegal, until the pope baptized a bag and called it a Holy Christian drink now. True factoid.
Thinking Muslim in essence is a top notch source for the revival of Ummatic self esteem motivation and above all bonding and unification The esteemed guest here provided historic perspective on the topic in a very befitting articulate almost spiritual way
How come no one thought about the fact that ottoman declibe coincides with the fact that west discovered, plundered and murdered a whole new continent, enslaved another, stole the resources while giving them smallpox, commin cold, etc. and ottomans were a mediterranean nation that has no shores to atlantic to do something about it
As a Muslim Turk I found this so amazing. I'm so proud of every single Muslim who stands against to distortions of western orientalists from Indonesia to Morocco. Please pray for our Ummah's reunification
There are over a dozen grand vezirs who were Devsirme (convert christian children), Zagnos pasa, Rum Mehmed Paşa, Veli Mahmud Paşa, Yunus Paşa, Rüstem Paşa, Mehmed Paşa of Sokol, Kuyucu Murat Paşa, ibrahim pasa of Parga etc etc Also almost all Navy commanders were devsirme..My favorite one is the story of great naval commander (became grand vezir for a short period) Yusuf Sinan pasa of Cicala..The guy was from noble blood from Messina Italy, fell slave after a naval battle with his father, brought back to istanbul, his father waqs released later but the son stayed, attended devsirme school and quickly rose among military ranks, became Naval commander and had many victories, at some point in time his family came to power in italy (with his help obviously)..he would time to time visit his mother in italy with the ottoman navy (he was loved much so the sultan wouldn't make it a problem J)..rival dynasties in italy would ask the pope to request a signed letter of him stating he wasn't landing to italy to punish them for their past crimes against his family, which he would respond to something like " I am still a nobleman of higher blood than yours, my word alone should suffice or else!"..The famous neighborhood of "Cagaloglu" in istanbul is named after him..They should make a movie about this guy for certain! He was such a character man J Original italian name was "Scipio of cicala"
@@muratgurol446 Obviously, Islam was the religion of the superior people in the eyes of the Europeans in those times, up until the late 18th century (look up Turquerie in wiki)..Most of the families sent their children willingly, (in fact this system is borrowed from the Roman empire) their children had an opportunity to rise in status and often would benefit from it themselves..the whole town of Sokol gained great privileges once Mehmed pasa became grand vezir..you should read diaries and biographies of these pashas..it was pretty much the exact opposite of the times we're in now unfortunately..muslims trying to flee to the lands of the west, rightfully so because of the welfare/justice/opportunity/hope in those lands!
My favourite is Kılıç Ali Paşa (Occhiali) Son of an Italian fisherman, set off by a ship towards being a pastor in a christian religious school, found himself on the way to being Kaptan-ı Derya (Grand Admiral) of the Ottoman navy! :) His mosque in Karaköy İstanbul is a must visit & must pray in.
@@muratgurol446 Well technically he was a devsirme, religion even today is more a cultural matter than an intellectual one, much less than 1% of people choose their religion, the ottoman empire was the center of power and high culture back then, up until the end of 18th century, the whole Turquerie movement is evidence of that, paintings of my much beloved David Hume who was an avid atheist in ottoman attire should suffice to prove that, like the muslims of today fleeing to europe and the us today, christians those days were longing to belong to the ottoman empire, every street in every western city was flooded with horseshit up until the end of 20th century you should keep that in mind..quite the contrary of the cenery today
@@pinaryonter59 Uluc Ali as many of us know him today, legendary man! He should be to us what Captain Cook is to the Brits..another movie to make most definitely!
I hate to sound like a broken record but again I’m blown away by the depth of conversations I find on this channel. As a person who has been very interested in Ottoman history for over 20 years and obviously consumed most of what I know from western sources. I had no that most Muslim nations outside of Turkiye were also consuming their Ottoman history from western sources. That is really strange on a fundamental level. That would almost be akin to France’s entire knowledge base on what the Roman Empire was being seen through the looking glass of what the Chinese for example thought of the Romans. Or better yet how the modern Middle East saw the Romans. I’d imagine it hard to build deep meaningful ties with anyone after having zero basis or knowledge of the shared history between the two groups. Or worse when your only knowledge about them is based on false narratives which I’d imagine are harmful. You learn something new and interesting here all the time.
Amazing work, I am a Muslim from India living in Germany and I love history in general and Ottoman history in particular. May Allah reward you both immensely for this. Keep growing
All well-meaning Muslims have a particular predilection and warm regards to the Ottoman period in particular. And if a Muslim does not, then that person's deen is in question, in my absolutely honest opinion. There are usually 3 types of people that vehemently speak negatively about the Ottoman period, these are 1) "Western" powers who hate to see an Islamic empire thrive 2) Sahyoonis (along with their middle eastern allies) 3) Wahhabi types
@@snakejuce I know a few "Wahhabi types" (Muslim brothers Alhamdulillah) who even though might not be fans of the Ottoman rule, they have their issues, but stay neutral and leave the matter to Allah, which is the best thing to do as Ottomans don't even exist to defend themselves.
@snakejuce Honestly, I have heard more Indians say positive things about the British than Arabs say anything positive about the Ottomans. Which is interesting because the post-Ottoman middle east has not been great.
@@juniorjames7076 Indians adopted British language and culture and are connected to Anglo/British economic, financial, political and legal systems. This is not the case with the Arabs, there was a complete break-up between the Arabs and the Turks post-Ottomans.
@@f1aziz Indians adopted English because India has 50+ languages, and you need some language to communicate. English, not being an Indian language, became that language. Also, before the British left, they had established economic, financial, political, and legal systems, and to continue with them was easier than scrapping out and installing a new system.
I found Turkish TV years ago. I used to send money to assist with translations. My interest began in earnest after watching the Abdul Hamid II episodes on Turkish TV not "western Netflix" which has nothing of interest for me.
Both Western mainstream media and current Turkish mainstream media are toxic about history, not only about Ottomans but about history in general.. They are full of bullshit and lies, I highly recommend you to stay away.
in TV show, Abdulhamid II is inaccurate description of him. There were a lot of things done by other sultans of Ottoman Empire, which TV showed it as if it was done by Abdulhamid II
Another comment from me: we need more of this. I love the deep discussion in this world full of tiktokers. Actually as an Arab, I'd love to learn more about the history of Islam in the Indian subcontinent
First of all, there is nothing wrong with "the Israel." Boiling down the struggle for the independence of the Arab nations to two nations who were not even contemporaries of each other is a disservice to Arab nationalists that arose outside of the Sykes-Picot paradigm.
@@thejusticechannel13 nothing wrong about Israel for the Turks.... for the Arabs, they clearly 'feel' something is going on badly. Those Arab nationalists that you mention; nationalists are (Arab or other) have a tendency to be on the wrong side
1:01:34 I need to add that Balkans vastly Turkish-Muslim population until early 1800s. Then The longest genocide of history has started till 1922. Slavs, Bulgars, Serbs, Greeks, Romanians killed more than non-military 5 millions people and forced to immigrate around 9-10 million predominantly Turkish Muslims. That's why today in Bulgaria, there is no muslim or in Serbia. If you ask Balkan immigrants of Turkish people, they will their forefathers homeland probably in Bulgaria, Albania, Macedonia, Greece, Serbia or around Romania. That doesn't mean they are ethnically not Turkish. They were Turks in Balkans.
Ottomans did not have much population at the beginning, they were the smallest 'beylik', but on the frontier. They made alliances with Christians to make up for the deficit. After they crossed the straights, they started recruiting from Christians. Keep in mind that local Christians hated Venetians more, and they would prefer Ottomans over Venetians. To be selected for the service was very competitive, and they did not view it as slavery. Talented kids would be sent to palace school.
Being on frontier, doing ‘gaza’ to the Christians and abundance of the spoils from raids and wars made Ottomans most suitable beylik for all migratory Turkic tribes so in terms of manpower, I don’t think smallest beylik would be correct
@@zafertav7874 Spoils? Cows or sheep? The republican regime hated Ottomans to the core, and you are simply repeating their false claims they copied from the French. It is nonsense. Ottomans had a taxation system like any other, and they viewed the welfare of their subjects as quintessential to their statecraft. Their demise is mainly rooted in demographics. Their population decreased while Europe and Russia was exploding from 1700 on.
Great podcast, very timely too with a lot of ill informed people teaching nonsense about the Ottomans, even by badly informed so called muslim scholars. It would be great if you could find someone like Dr Ahmed on the Mughals.
@@shehzebimam4991Mughals we’re plunderers who came to India to loot,enslave and destroy places of worship…no Indian king ever invaded or attacked any Muslim country..still Mohamad gaznavi ,khilji,Ghori,Qasim,Babar invaded India to spread peace and harmony as prescribed in your book..they looted ,slaughterd millions of Indians,destroyed thousands of temples and enslaved helpless women for 800 years….thousands of out Rajpoot women used to commit mass suicide to avoid been rap*d and enslavd by these invading moguls….
Remember the hadith of our Prophet! He said many nice things about the commander and the army that conquered Istanbul. All the administrators of the Ottoman Empire were rulers who came from that lineage and had the same ideals as Fatih Sultan Mehmet. As a muslim, I am proud of them. May Allah be pleased with them for their service to Islam.
The army conquers Constantinople with takbir, not a siege and 7 months later the Dajjal appears. He’s not talking about the Turks. Maybe you hadn’t read that part
@@alituncer4245 the people who conquer Constantinople from the kufar. If you think it’s happened already then you are basically saying Mahdi, Dajjal, and Esa have already came and passed
Alhamdulilah for a thoroughly stimulating session. I have been trying to learn islamic history of late and look fwd to Dr Yaakoob book on the Ottoman Empire history.....
When you read the Ottomans from Western sources, you get false-informed as the Westerners couldn’t stand Ottomans/Turks/Muslims and that Ottomans captured their holy empire, the Eastern Roman Empire. Fall of the empire is at 1453, however they started to call it Byzantine first in the mid of 1500s by German historians. Because their holy empire shouldn’t have captured by a Muslim Turkish empire. So they started to name it Byzantine after 100yrs of the fall :). Moreover, you cannot even find a paper in Eastern Roman archives that “Byzantine” term was used. They never call themselves Byzantine :).
Even later - the term Byzantines is a product of 19th century orientalist. And what's most regrettable is that even Turkish scholars refer to Eastern Rome as the Byzantines, which is an imperialist narrative.
It is a great feeling to hear such a high level discussion about Ottoman history. As a Muslim Turk, I haven’t had a chance to have this conversation even in the formal education classes of the Turkish Republic, let alone in the Arab countries.
First time listening to a podcast from this channel, and the whole discussion was on point. Many thanks to the host and the guest! Just to expand on the Devshirme system, which was a topic of interest when I was reading about Ottomans. The ethicality of the system is another discussion topic, but I want to explain what exactly it was and why it was there. First, describing it as "taking kids from families" is a very reductionist way of approaching the topic. Devshirme was very well-thought to keep both sides happy. To mention a few rules: it was one kid per 10 to 40 families; if the family has only one son, it wouldn't be taken; they would have to be at a certain age (10-15); if a family gave a kid, they would be exempted from paying taxes; and the list of rules goes on. The kids would be given to Turkish families to be taken care of and learn Islamic teachings until they are old enough to get higher educations. They would mainly be trained by the military unless they had talents in other fields. Ultimately, they would become a part of the special forces in military or high rank officials in the palace. There is a consequential reason why they were specifically trained to have high ranks. Devshirme was developed right when Ottomans began to advance very rapidly as a state, early 1400s. At the time, Turks would live as familial tribes in Anatolia, and Ottomans were becoming a structured state. Inevitably, other Turkish tribes became a part of the state and started taking roles in the government. People in these roles started favoring their own family/tribe, and Ottomans wanted to prevent this problem getting out of hand early on. Thus, Devshirme system was developed. That's why there were many viziers, grand viziers, engineers and high rank army officials from Devshirme system. The aim was to train people who are only loyal to the state and the sultan, in contrast to merely increasing the number of soldiers in the army. This system worked as intended for about 200 years, and it was extremely successful at averting any corruption in the government. As a matter of fact, Devshirme system started failing when Turkish families bribed the officials to take their kids in order to have family in bureaucracy. Whether you think Devshirme was ethical or not, strategically speaking, it was a very successful way of building a loyal and reliable bureaucracy at that time. It also yielded some of the greatest minds of the time like Mimar Sinan.
No other countries had todays ethics those days, devshirme system is the most ethical system I've ever heard about the era. Still no humanity in western world, check Bosnia & Palest. slaughters.. :(
I like the way Dr Yaqoob pauses and thinks about the question and then asks a counter question in a philosophical way. For example he asks what is moderanity? How do you define modernaity? Is it a way to synchronise or what? And then he build his entire argument around that question. I think all Muslims needs to ask questions and stop believing in things which are put out of context. To understand moderanity we need to understand how our ancestors think about moderanity? When we say knowledge is only in books we should pause and think for a moment and say he what I just heard was also knowledge etc etc.
I thought coffe was prohibited because the Portuguese controlled the routes where coffee was coming out of, and buying coffee would mean supporting/strengthening the Portuguese kingdom, as Ottomans fought/ were fighting on several fronts with the Portuguese.
Maybe there were those considerations in place as well. I think the point he's trying to make is that there were multiple considerations including political ones at play. It wasn't simply ignorant people making random rulings, it's a lot more complex and considered than that.
At coffee shops, janissaries were gathering and planning for a coup; they were also do agenda and propaganda against the ottoman sultan. So, due to the intelligence sultan Got from his intelligence servise he made this coffee ban.
YES THAT WAS ONE OF THE REASON, BECAUSE MOST OF THE COFFEE WAS PLANTED IN SOUTH EAST ASIA AND THE PORTUGUESE WERE FIGHTING WITH MUSLIM IN SOUTH EAST ASIA AND INDIA.
No, that has nothing to do with the historical facts. First of all, Europeans got coffee from Ottomans. Second, most of the Ottoman coffee came from Yemen, and some from Oman. Why do you think most common type of coffee in Brazil is Arabica. Because, it came from Yemen. Unfortunately, Yemen later stopped producing coffee. They have been using the land they used to grow for qat farming now.
@@wewenang5167Not really, coffy is originally from ethiopia and grow in yemen as well, both had land routes to ottomans and parts of them was under ottoman control. Not to count, there was still land trade going from china and india to ottomans for a very long time
His description of devşirme was quiet wrong. The reason they took mainly non Muslims to become sultan's personal guards or statemen was so they wouldn't have any connection to outside and be able to have claims to power! Only a small part of the forces were devşirme (yeni çeri) so not every non muslims had to give away their sons but a small part when needed and mostly they competed to give away their sons for a great future. That is also the reason the sultans mainly married harem girls.
@@Bizmyurt Adam, devşirme sisteminin nasıl olduğu ile ilgili konuşmadı ki! Videonun neredeyse tamamı Osmanlı dönemine karşı oryentalist bakış açısının ve bakış açısının sorulara bile etki etmesinden bahsetti ve tarihi bakışın nasıl olması gerektiğinden bahsetti; devşirme konusu oradan açıldı.
@@Bizmyurtdevşirme konusuna kısaca değindi ama videodan anladığı kadarıyla insaların aklında devşirme denince abd deki kölelik sistemi gibi bir şey canlanıyor, devşirmenin ne olduğunu tam olarak anlamamışlar. Hoca da ona kosaca değindi ama sizin dediğiniz noktalara değinip önce devşirmenin mantığını bir açıklaması gerekiyordu. 1 2 nokta gözetilerek değil birden çok yapı düşünülerek yapılmış bir sistem devşirmelil çünkü. Ama hoca da tam da bu yüzden bana soru sormanızı değil tarihi biraz araştırıp bu oryantalist bakış açısından kurtulmanızı istiyorum dedi.
To understand Arabs in general read memories book "Gazavat-i Hayreddin" of Barbaros Hayreddin Pasha. There you will read struggles between Turks and Portuguese/ Spanish and cooperation of Arab leaders/ tribal beys/chiefs with Spanish while Turks try to fire them from coasts of North Africa. This is 16th century. Also to understand newer character read Lawrence activities beginning 20th century.
Another exceptional guest and episode of TTM. Loved every minute. Especially the reality behind the printing press ban and the partial coffee ban. Thank you as always Br. Jalal!
The truth is that many Christian Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians... became muslim. The reason why we dont see them around is because they integrated into Turkish population. Espeacially after Ottomans lost Balkans.
Mashalah very useful podcast, thank you and jazakumullahu khayr, The Ottoman history is one of the most neglected in the world, unfortunately the Turkish state is not paying enough attention and resources to explore this 700 years old empire which ruled 32 countries in three continents, i heard once from an islamic historian scholar Sheikh Ragheb Sarjan who is one of the best islamic historian saying some of the main obsticles of exploring the Ottoman history, he said that there are at least 7 million untranslated files in Turkey let alone the other millions of historic files in the balkans, the lavant, north africa and the Caucases, the other obstical he mentioned was the disconnection between the classical old Turkish which was written in arabic and which these files were recorded and the modern Attatorkean latin written modernTurkish. So, the Islamic world especially Turkey needs to alocate huge funds and scholars to explore and record this history deeply and academically. Shukran
Its a conundrum for modern Arab intellectuals. It seems you can't call yourself a modern (or patriotic) Syrian, Egyptian, Tunisian, etc if you have anything good to say about the Ottoman years. Were the Ottoman's to Yemen the equivalent as the French to Algeria or Senegal? Britain to India? I have heard Indians say more positive things about the British than Egyptians or Lebanese say anything positive about the Ottomans.
@@juniorjames7076thats the only reason we have 7 million untranslated files ..Turks but more importantly all islamic world has been seperated and destroyed massivly not just by war but by education before and after ww1 .untill today there is no sign of a peace in omajority of Ottoman led states up untill today.not only muslim states buy also balkan states too.İf Egypt and Lebanon or Algeria talk more positive about french and english in your case,well its very simple to answer .is because they asimilated and genocided those nations really fast…nor because they are angels.Brits went to Australia and New Zealand and killed Maori and Abeogine culturea ib such a short time .they even think Jesus is Maori.İn rotorua churches christ is Maori…Where Turks or Ottomans have let people of the stete live freely in their languages and culture and religion masive portion of their denisty
Give details please. When Sarjan said that ''7 million files are waiting to be translated''? Please type the name ''Halil İnalcık''. Each historian knows that they can start with this monumental historian of Ottoman Empire. There is surely no 7 million non-translated document or else. We are not expecting some discovery of a document coming from some Ottoman Turkish documents in Albania or else. Atatürk is the reason they are standardized in a scientific way in academies- oh and he is the FIRST leader in Turkish history that called a well-known respected theologian and Quran scholar and ask him to translate the book to common Turkish.
@@mertnecati875 the lectures of the islamic historian Dr Ragheb alserjani on the history of the ottoman empire is in youtube, a total of 11 lectures in arabic, the quote i made on my post is on the first and second lectures, youtube will not allow me to post the link but if you copy and paste this on you tube it will popup. قصة الدولة العثمانية: محسنة الصوت - د. راغب السرجانى
1:20:05 OTTOMAN EMPIRE is ENGLISH name fit for KINGS. The official name was Devlet-i aliyye Muhammediyye ., meaning the great state of Muhammed the prophet.
Absolutely amazing how Dr. Ahmed answered and explained every question holistically. Especially the question about the claim "the Ottomans were never a Khalifate" was devastating. A possible reason that the Khalifate had to be Arab, if not Kuraic, shows in essence that this idea is nationalistic, ethnic or racist. This is of course absolutely prohibited in Islam !!!
I guess its a conundrum for modern Arab intellectuals. It seems you can't call yourself a modern (or patriotic) Syrian, Egyptian, Tunisian, etc if you have anything good to say about the Ottoman years. Were the Ottoman's to Yemen the equivalent as the French to Algeria or Senegal? Britain to India? I have heard Indians say more positive things about the British than Egyptians or Lebanese say anything positive about the Ottomans.
Excellent discussion! Thank you so much! I would be interested in hearing Dr. Ahmed’s commentary/analysis of Benedict Anderson’s _Imagined Communities_ on the printing press, “simultaneity,” religion, nationalism & the nation state
Such a conscientious and deep thinking speaker, maa shaa Allah, and the interviewer's acceptance of his overturning his whole stance opened up some really worthwhile insights . Jazzakum allahu khairan.
Can we not say Ottoman like the british because it was so hard for them to pronounce Osman or Uthman. Like think of it. The founders name is Osman. But the empires name suddenly becomes Ottoman? We don't say Ottoman in turkish. We say Osmanlı Devleti.
Liked how you first described the devşirme system around 54:00 mark and than went "this is what it means, now make up your mind accordingly". Better example then Mimar Sinan would have been Sokullu Mehmet Paşa who was the grand vizier during the height of ottoman power. He was originally an orthodox christian Serb. We know this because when he visited these lands, his mother seeing the birthmark on his face recognized him. After that he made his brother the head of Serbian Orhadox church. And there are many many more examples of devşirme grand viziers and pashas (including made famous by Turkish soap operas, İbrahim Paşa)
@@NadidLinchestein Saudi Arabia exist because they never wanted to be sovereign but an extension of the British. Ottoman farmer survived as a sovereign Turkish farmer. They ruled themselves. Not driven by emperialist racist kuffar wild west.
@@NadidLinchestein & Ottomans were always called Turkish by the western world by the way. So we can again say Ottoman farmer exists as Turkish farmer.. still.
Amazing podcast as always. I feel more intelligent and inspired after watching it! I would also love to get a hold of the TTM mug would enjoy drinking my morning brew(coffee) from it! 😊 Have you considered selling such a product?
1:32:12 I love this point about finding alternative, and more wholesome, ways of continuously teaching history. Almost as if it needs to be a part of the generational culture
Ottoman's main problem was demographic. Whille the population of Europe was increasing starting from 1700's, Ottoman population was declining. Their policy towards the Europeans were based on exploiting the rivalries between them. That was not always successful especially after the rise of Russia. Printing press issue is exaggerated. Also, culturally they were still nomadic, and did not focus that much on agriculture. I think what caused its demise is inapptitude of the Union and Progress party and their hatred for Ottomans.
It's a good point of view. but I would say this about the union and progress party: the longer the death of the sick man was delayed, the greater the destruction that followed. that's why it had to die and be reborn. the ottoman was beyond saving.
@@emretarhan0 Not really. Union and Progress were fools believing progress was too slow. Yes, it was slow but they were moving in the right direction, infrastructure and education had made big strides, and it was peacefull. They surrendered the country to Germans. Probably Sultan Hamid never thought that they could be such idiots, otherwise he would crush their bones. The Republican Regime was a British puppet, masquerading as nationalist, doubling down on the idioticity. of Union and Progress had killed all intellectual capacity and creativity. We became an US puppet after 1960, after Menderes was eliminated. Turkiye became independent only after Erdogan. I hope he continues.
@@Zartzurt-b5x They were working for Germans. Germany staged 1908 coup. Germany was financed by the Jewish money from the very beginning. Demanded from the Ottomans to be recognized as protector of Jews, which was refused. Brits and Germans somehow managed to split military schools in the Balkans between the two. German side staged the coup. MK was in the German camp initially, but was pushed aside by Enver. He joined the British camp in Palestine. Read Lawrence's memoirs.
1:00:00 bro what do you mean turks and kurds converting in the ottoman period?? Dr they were muslims 300+ years before that you talking about Almuqadimah Dr have you even read it? sooo many funny thing being said here
There's a general understanding that Arabs became Muslim during Rasul Allah's time, reality on the ground was, plenty of pagan Arabs were becoming Muslim even as late as Abbasid period. No group of people ever became Muslim in their entirety in one go, Islamisation as a process is a long and very slow process.
@Muhammadarubah8672. It seems his intentions were good and he does bring up philosophical points which are quite interesting. But when it comes to the nuts and bolts of Ottoman history, he does make some really odd mistakes. Like the one you pointed out, even the Empire from who's ashes the Ottoman empire was built (Seljuks) was a Muslim empire. How in the world does this guy not know that? Some random guy like me sitting in America knows that and a so-called expert in Ottoman history doesn't? It is very interesting. Turks started accepting Islam in 751 with the tribes of Karluk, Yagma and Cilgiz accepted Islam and then started spreading it ot the other tribes. The Ottoman empire didn't come for another 300+ years like you said.
@@najmaalikhan Even though his knowledge of the history is quite lacking, I still felt he had something to offer. It was still worth a watch and it was still fascinating. Surely it would have been better if he actually know Ottoman history lol
Im not sure if he is referring to that but turks and kurds had large amounts of heterogeneous religious practices until pretty recent times. They constituted good portion of the population of their cultures and nowadays its still continue in some parts of anatolia, called alevis and organised in a more shia way (also supported foundation of safavids-people reading this can look into qizilbash tribes), have many beliefs and practices from pre islam anatolia, tengrism and zoroastrians. Also these practices founded many tariqqaas and sufi orders (again one of them are safavids before they found a state, one of them are bektashi order of ottomans that was basis of janissaries, ahi order was important in ottomans for craftsman and mavlavis, founded bu rumi in anatolia, there are much more than that but you guys get the gist of it). Ottomans forcibly converted those people to more orthodox islam, either by sufi orders or by forcible means.
I should say it was interesting to watch. Most of Turks aren't even aware of these myth's in general. But Mr.Yakoop seems to have a certain level of understanding about the Ottoman era. But Ottoman's didn't called themselves as an Empire the word was (Devlet-i Ali or Aliyye) meaning (Büyük, yüce devlet) in Turkish. Supreme or Great State in English. No need to describe themselves other than that.
True. Just to add to that, Urdu-speaking Muslims call it "Usmaani Khilafat". The word khilafah is always emphasized as they were brought up by their mothers with the idea that if or when Khalifa calls upon them they are ready to give their lives in an instant. My own family narrated how the womenfolk gave up all their gold, to the Khilafat Movement in the 1920s.
it's false actualy. all the people in turkey love southeast asian muslims for their historical boundries yet it's not shown on mainstream media enough.
@F1aziz, anyone who has spent a considerable amount of time knows the vast majority of Turks not only give the Ottomans a fair shake, they go beyond that and form a narrative that many times sweeps many bad things under the rug. What you're saying was probably true from the 1920s to roughly the 1970s. Their narrative of why they went through a traumatic civilizational defeat was because of the faults of the Ottomans. People born after 1970 generally don't hold on to that narrative, they've gone in the opposite direction.
In the so-called history lessons that were taught to us when I was a student(1976) the Ottomans generally described as like "Dynasty used the Turks while they were rising, but the dynasty gradually lost its Turkishness and did not invest in the Anatolia. gradually the Turks in their own empire became 2nd class and they did not get as much rights as non-Muslims in the empire." in fact, it was described as a state that exploited us. In contrast, there was a very quick time jump to Atatürk from Ottomans in history class and they used to be tell us how he modernized us, how he liberated us from the imperialist Ottoman dynasty and how he broke the so-called brainwashing influence of Islam. Imagine being exposed to this for 6 hours every week for 12(+6) years. The Turkish Republic is structurally a state that denigrates the decadence of the Ottoman state as much as possible and blames it on religion and its law(the sharia). the system is fixed in such a way that it will not change no matter which government comes to power.
Great topic? Really|? Muslims are some of the poorest and least educated around the world. Instead of dealing with real issues that affect everyday life we have people masturbating to this fantastical ahistorical nonsense of Imperialistic porn, that won't help any Muslims?
..by the way, most latest Vezirs (2nd, 3rd man after sultan in rank) are of those devshirme (taken from christian families & educated in islamic ways) class.
May I suggest recounting all the scientific miracles of the Quran, like we created all living things from water, we brought down iron, we created everything from nothing and are expanding the universe, etc. When did these things become known? It would be very interesting. Thank you.
As a Turk in Germany belonging to a minority, I can understand the Pakistanis in the UK. We all make the same experience. And you will always be welcome in Türkiye!
The point of view of Dr’s is great and true. You can judge cases and decisions and other things in its time, not with today’s understanding. Ottoman empire did great job in every place they got. If you do not believe this, just check out the situation in balkans, north africa and middle east for the last 100 years!
I feel so honored and happy to meet you Dr Yakoob Ahmed. Thank you for your work on Ottomans because I did not know that there were so many negative ideas about them in the Arab world especially. Britains made them hate us and us hate them after WW1. This is not fair. May be someone who isn' "Turk" would make it right again. I also loved your idea about how the Ottomans would be if they were still around. I would prefer their ruling today. By the way I want add a little bit detail. Memluks were Turkish and even before Ottomans took khalifet, they had huge impact on who will the caliphate (halife)be.
Interesting and informative, thank you and your guest. Would just kindly suggest avoiding click bait titles that throw out all the subtlety in the discussion out the window.
As a Turkish audience, I got enjoyed and got impressed by Dr.Ahmed answers. I would like to say that it was an interesting podcast for me because I have never seen that before neo-Arap seight about Ottoman.( I got that neo-arap things with the questions). I would like to say my opinions. It looks little bit delusional, also little bit reactional for me. Indeed, It looks like you are trying to increase your legitimacy by rejecting your past or despising Ottoman. But you don't need to that... Okay I know there are some problems in Ottomans history but heeey man, you can not try to say that it is a decline period for 600 years for Islam or they exploitated the Araps. That is not an ignorance, that is malevolence that i can say. You do not need to reject or evilify your past or Ottomans to increase your legitimacy of present arabic country. You just need to accept your past, present and your future with all your existings. Then you can live with in a peace with your current existing. But anyway, I never heard that kind of argument before, I mean that approach... Thank you :)
I didn't find this discussion fruitful tbh. Dr Yakoob is going against the western colonial narrative, that's good. However he doesn't have a substantiated alternative narrative. His points are speculative in nature. Had he shown us some real statistics or references regarding the literacy in Ottomans despite the absence of printing press, it would be more reliable. It's a statistical fact that without physical copy of a book, it is hard to keep up the literacy rates. Certain eager personalities will definitely find their way to reach to books, for sure. However reach of knowledge to the masses relies on availability of physical copies.
I think that the problem is that discussion about Ottoman history amongst the Islamic political activist milieu isn't just discussion of a historical era. It's attempting to revive the idea of a Caliphate. They aspire to the restablishment of a similar system in the future. That is partly why Yacoob doesn't have an alternative narrative to promote. We all saw the rise of ISIS. Most people don't want that.
Yes you're right he never made a claim without evidence or proposed an alternative narrative in this podcast, he simply deconstructed some popularised notions which is a good first step for the average muslim to understand before starting off with false assumptions. At the current state of the umma this content is much needed. Maybe not for a history student but very fruitful for the masses imo.
@@oayysz8909 deconstruction is not enough without an alternative narrative. After all, as Muslims we have ask for evidence based on Quranic injunctions.
You haven't understood anything if you're still thinking in terms of literacy rates. He mentioned 3 points regarding this: 1. Major point - knowledge production in the Muslim world placed more emphasis on the oral tradition as opposed the written one. Even written books and poems were expected to be memorised and authors would teach their books, as opposed to readers simply reading them. Hence unlike in Western Europe, low literacy rate does not mean low knowledge production or low access to knowledge. 2. Minor point - data collection in Ottoman censuses was different. They counted households, not individuals as such. That impacts your data on literacy rates. 3. Minor point - literacy rate is not a reflection of intelligence or sophistication of thought (unlike in Western Europe), due once again to the predominance of the oral tradition.
@@notadaneso a historian teaching nuances of human history is dismissed after listening to 15 minutes by an absolute dilhole? Farangi aulads are debunked and can't handle it
I'm afraid to say, that's what history is. It's more about fitting the proper glasses. The so-called truth is always a narrative, that connects the points of data. And as to your argument, you could say as well the Ottomans failed to reproduce. For it was the sheer population size in Britain and Germany that allowed for an early industrialization (with sources gathered from colonies).
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
As a Muslim Turk, I am astonished and was unaware of such negative views towards the Ottomans. What harm did the Ottomans do to Muslims? At that time, there was no oil or natural gas, so we can't say they exploited them. If the Ottoman Empire had been a colonial power like those in the West, it would have exploited, destroyed, and assimilated far more than they did. You can see how tolerant the Ottomans were towards other cultures by the fact that the forty-odd nations that separated from them still speak their own languages today and have not lost their cultures. Every state has its mistakes; only Allah is perfect. We Turks have a saying: "One should look at what a person does, not at their words." The remnants of the Ottomans in these countries are the inns, mosques, madrasahs, bridges, and beautiful architectural works.
Not sure what it means to be a colonial state like the West, nor did all the western nations that colonized spread their languages. Nor am I sure what the importance of that is
@@AsscherMazzelaar Go and learn what exploitation is and how it is done.
@@BirinEri We are seeing the results of other Muslims actions against Ottomans in Palestine. Our grandparents were providing them safety. Ottomans showed to the world how tolerance to the others should be like. Arabs have never accepted us like Muslims. It is their mistake.
@@tugbaozkan7803 Ottoman Empire allowed aaliyahs by Zionist Jews, namely the First and Second one.
@@AsscherMazzelaarlsnguage is very important for the colonization ,they teach very easily harmful things ,and british colony wvorkers say ottoman empire very bad for you ,they kill you ,why they say this ?.similar things et.c. also the french colony workers ,they kill tunisian and near naighbour country people .for the colonisation
Dr Ahmed’s response to the “decline” question is spot on. The Second French Empire is never described as being in a state of decline culminating in its destruction at the hands of the nascent German Empire in 1871. The same applies to the British, German and Russian Empires. This is because these countries’ respective historiography adheres to a sense of continuity with their past and present. Thus, no matter how many crises they underwent (similar to the Ottoman Empire), one could not describe them as “declining” as others would just point to their present state, even though they are entirely different countries from a few centuries ago.
The fact that the Ottoman Empire outlasted most of them is never taken into consideration. Instead it is merely viewed through the lens of perpetual stagnation - a narrative that collapses when one thinks about it for more than 30 seconds.
Agreed, however I think the dynamic is setup simply because the Ottoman Empire, no longer IS.... In other words, NOT present.
It can only be viewed in a retrograde fashion. Hard to have a "sense of continuity with past and present" when it's only the past that is... present...
Now were circumstances different, and the Ottoman Empire still existed... Well, we wouldn't be having this convo now would we? lol
Spot on Masha'Allah.
All empires will rise and fall its what history shows, but Islam will remain no matter what happens. In sha Allah Ameen
If Allah wills
ruclips.net/video/2SusIXxW-jg/видео.html
@@snakejuce What exactly is the difference between the Ottoman empire no longer existing and the holy roman empire no longer existing but is inevitably linked to Germany and German history. Or the Roman empire no longer existing but having a sense of continuity with Italians and Greeks. I still think you're onto something though. I would say that rather than it simply being the ottoman empire no longer existing, the people who would see themselves as a continuation or their successors stopped existing (at least politically). Which is why Turks who try to relink their past to the Ottoman empire and rekindle a sense of being one of its successor states often get accused of being "neo-Ottomans" as a derogatory term by people who don't want that to happen.
I want to ask the Arabs who do not like and hate the Ottoman Empire. If there were no Ottomans and Turks, how many times would you have been invaded in 800 years? If there were no Turks, how would you endure the Crusader oppression that occurred and could happen, and how would you protect your language and religion? Yes, we all saw what happened when the Ottoman Empire collapsed. Although the Ottoman Empire was not perfect, the lands it had lived in for centuries were perfectly protected from European occupation.
I AGREE brodher.❤
@@normalvarlk1314 They may think so, but first they need to analyze what happened in the 1st Crusade.
Just like Arabs did for a thousand years, turks did nothing but send the entire region into backwardness while they're working in German factories in the millions. You mass murdered and committed mass genocides against everyone from the Greeks to Armenians to Arabs alike.
Destroyed and razed down entire cities such as Diriyah. Even after 100 years of turk occupation we are spending over $62 Billion USD to rebuild one single city that was destroyed by the occupation. Still today you continue to commit war crimes and support terrorists across Syria to destabilise the country and take over Kurdish areas to stop them from independence.
The Europeans said the same thing to the Africans. We’re here to help you and save you… while pillaging all the same
Ottomans were genocidal war criminals but of course you turks who live in German factories will always defend it
The Ottoman Empire was the best example of Islamic unity. Do not allow Western historians to tarnish the Ottoman Empire with slander. Muslims need to unite again. 2 billion Muslims just watch a handful of cruel Jews massacring Muslims, like what happened in Gaza. This is shameful. If the Ottomans were alive, such a thing would never have happened.
*Zionists. There are anti-zionist Jews heavily against the actions of Israel
Can't glorify the Ottoman Empire without a little anti-semitism?
@@thejusticechannel13Osmanlı'nın buna ihtiyacı yok.Seferadları kurtaran zaten Osmanlı.😅Ama şimdi ders zamanı geliyor.
@@thejusticechannel13 Israel was created shortly after the Ottoman Empire ended. Coincidence?
@@juniorjames7076 Actually, the Bolshevik Revolution had more to do with the foundation of Israel than anything the Ottomans didn't do.
How could Ottomans be such negative and go on for 600 years? Arabic, Persian or other origin muslims are so busy learning their own history from the west & getting ashamed about the defeats of their own emperialisms that they simply cannot see the truth of some great aspects of Ottomans. Modernity & industrialisation is based on race & not sharing. Ottomons were the symbol of another perspective of life, which is very widely based on İslam. It was about the unseen war of the two worlds and up to now anti-islamist seem to "win" under the form of capitalism. (But it wont last long because its not sustainable)
Coffee is very bad for your health by the way, it's promoted by the west as a substance to abuse actually. The origins also lies on the base of dark ages of colonialism & in some areas it still does. It's a big industry making white supremist colonialists richer. Do you know that in the spiritual world today (I mean new age spiritualism) coffee is seen as the tool of the dark system to captivate human beings minds? Spiritual people never use it before or after meditations & and it is advised to give up drinking coffee if one's an addict. I guess ulema banning coffe was intuitively seeing the truth about it.
You have to think wider, dear İslamic brothers & sisters...You have to make peace with & see the truths & beauty in your & Ottoman history. Otherwise they'll go on using your power more.
It's quite fascinating that Western historians choose to obscure the fact that it was the Ottomans who brought an end to the Roman Empire. 'Byzantine' is a made-up name; the official name was the Eastern Roman Empire, which fell in 1453. It's understandable that Italian historians, in particular, might find this a bitter pill to swallow.
Spot on my friend, it was Western Holy Roman Empire, but a butthurt western(German) historians named it Byzantines in 16th century! Think about it, it was happened in 1453 and after 100 yrs, a German historian called it Byzantine, and others followed it! Even today, some Western toxicated Muslim/Turkish media/academy calls it Byzantine! Such a lowlifeness!
Indeed, when you browse into the Archives of The Eastern Roman Empire, you cannot even find a paper where “Byzantine” name is written! :). Byzantine name is produced by westerners, after 100 yrs of the fall of the E. Roman Empire to Ottomans in 1453, just to censor their holy empire is captured by a Muslim Ottomans!
top comment.
@@thewayofbiutze3899 exactly, Westerners couldn’t stand that Ottomans captured their holy empire, the Eastern Roman Empire. Fall of the empire is at 1453, however they started to call it Byzantine first in the mid of 1500s by German historians. Because their holy empire shouldn’t have captured by a Muslim Turkish empire.
Moreover, you cannot even find a paper in Eastern Roman archives that “Byzantine” term was used. They never call themselves Byzantine :).
О какой горькой пилюле ты говоришь К моменту захвата Византии, империя была уже мертва изнутри и погрязла во внутренних конфликтах. А моментом смерти Византии был 1204-й год, когда Константинополь захватили и разграбили крестоносцы. Какое дело западным историком до православной Византии, они никогда не считали её частью западного мира, Византия занимала такое же место для запада, которое занимает и Россия, это антагонист и абсолютно не имеет значения что это христианская страна, на неё не распространялась власть католической церкви.
What a bitter pill are you talking about? By the time Byzantium was captured, the empire was already dead from the inside and mired in internal conflicts. And the moment of death of Byzantium was the year 1204, when Constantinople was captured and plundered by the crusaders.
What does a Western historian care about Orthodox Byzantium, they never considered it part of the Western world, Byzantium had the same importance for the West as Russia, it is an antagonist and it absolutely does not matter that it is a Christian country, the power of the Catholic Church did not extend to it.
Westerners must be furious that both Roman empires were destroyed by Turks or Turkic tribes, so they play with historical facts and try to cool down. - Huns were Turks! - Typical lying western historian: Noooo, they were mixed tribes, they might even been Mongols... - Turks destroyed the Eastern Roman Empire. - Typical hypocritical western pseudo-historian: Nooooo, that was Byzantium. blah blah blah.
Please give him a series to teach history. Take my money for that.
Perhaps. Before doing that, he needs to get some of his dates accurate.
WHAT DATES?@@paulheydarian1281
🎯 wallet out, ready.
He is teaching at qasas
Dr. Yakoob managed to make me question the origin of all the information and historical knowledge I had gained.
That is very true.
And you should
You should, definitely
What makes him special in my view is the ability to place our history within the Islamic framework and present Ottoman narrative from Islamic worldview.
Checkout his previous podcast on this channel specifically on the printing press issue. You'll know what I mean.
His point about certain questions being predicated on assumptions is a vital one. I've come across many online who only bring up the Ottoman Empire in the negative unfortunately.
Worse yet is when an alleged "Muslim" does this. The colonized mentality is so strong that this person who believes they have transcended beyond the "kuffar" speaks and thinks exactly like the kuffar.
So you want ppl to come at Ottoman history from a favourable view? Isn't that just the other side of the assumptions you do not favour? lol
Here is what you need to know.
The Ottomans were overthrown by their own Muslim and Non Muslim subjects who did not wish to be ruled by them.
None of the two dozen odd countries from Tunisia to Serbia want to be ruled by the Turks again.
And after ISIS, any residual support for Caliphate is gone.
That's why ppl like you are on the internet talking about this sort of thing. Not in real life nor taking any substantive action to bring this nonsense imperialism about on the ground. I guess you saw what happened to Mohammad Emwazi and Shameema Begum? lol
There are few modern Arab nations who's national struggles were based on being not the Turks/Ottomans, so understandably, Ottomans have been given fairly negative PR for decades in those countries, so it's understandable.
On the other hand Ottomans have superstars status in Southeast Asia. As a Pakistani, when I visited Top Kapi, and Fatih Mosque in Istanbul, my eyes were filled with tears coming from pride and joy I felt being surrounded by the history of this once powerful and magnificent Islamic state.
@@f1azizbhai they won’t give you citizenship nor do they accept Muslim asylum seekers or refugees..you are as always basking in borrowed glory..what have they given you …nothing..your Arab brothers don’t allow non Arab Muslims to get citizenship in their countries too and you guys keep on shouting Muslim ummah…Turks won’t allow you to enter their country without any visas…so no point in bragging about something which is not yours…peace bhai
@@Hitchens-k9s It's just not possible for Indians to not feel personally insulted when they come across a post from a Pakistani, even if that post has nothing to do with Indians.
Why can't you mind your business and spare me your lecture as if I needed it?
@@Hitchens-k9sWe are united by Islam. If some people have become ignorant it doesn't really matter. We don't crave for people's attention, it's secondary. We love Allah !!!
I teared up when he said 'these are still my people, this is still my ummah.'
Can you elaborate on the sherif of meccah and the arab peoples siding with the English and western powers against their ummah and caliphate?
I wish I knew the Thinking Muslim platform when I was living in Istanbul. Çok teşekkürler for this amazing content and the wonderful guests you have been hosting!
The opening question of "who wrote this history?" Is what all history classes should be based on. It's hiSTORY. Who wrote it and who that narrative benefits are such essential questions.
Perfect comment. I love history and I started to mainly read Primary sources followed by an experts view of said source. It really gave me insight, not always on what happened, but certainly who the person was who wrote that source. It is crucial to include the context of History, who are we getting our knowledge from, what was his bias, what was he trying to achieve by writing this source?
Great example is Hernan Cortez. Through his letters to the Spanish King which spread through Europe we today have a completely wrong narrative of the Conquest of the Aztecs. Cortez didn’t write a History, he wrote legal arguments and lied because he was in a troubled legal position and needed to justify himself. But his lies are believed all around the world. Context is crucial
So-called for someone's: "His-Story"
Dr Yakoob Ahmed is a gem and my favourite scholar on Ottoman history. The best thing is that he approaches the discussion from an orthadox Sunni position and does not romanticize
Is that because he is saying what you want to hear? lol
Lets get a memeber of the British National party to talk about the glories of the British Empire that bought so much 'civilisation' to India?!?
If you support Ottomanism then do you also support French, Russian and Japanese Imperilaism too?
@@ankhmorpok1497it's more because he doesn't do that, which the person you're replying to said, if you actually bothered reading before replying. Also you evidently haven't heard the podcast, and so all we're being presented is brain farts
@@ankhmorpok1497 I get a sense of sarcasm in your comment at the same time I am not sure if you can really compare an academician to a politician. Read your own comment again about British bringing civilization to the subcontinent.
@@ankhmorpok1497this is an interesting comment that we need to unpack.
Fact is the British do get to tell the story of their past, so do the French and the world consumes this.
But somehow the Ottomans and even the Japanese to a lesser extent should not have this privilege? Please tell me what in your view makes this privilege only apply to western civilization?
Most have no issues consuming their version of their history with people like you lambasting them for wanting to consume it.
So tell what in your eyes makes the Brits and French so special that they should have privileges you will fight to ensure others don’t.
@@ankhmorpok1497take your liberal secular thoughts to somewhere else.
we as muslim talking based on Islamic prospective
My grandfather was the son of a poor Siberian, coal minor. He was taken to the palace and educated to become a surgeon and a captain in the army. He rose through the ranks, learned to lecture in 7 languages( in surgery). Met walli to the sultan, who was also the military gov. of Yugoslavia. His sons, top rank pashas. My grandfather, married into the family. He became the chief of hospital, chief of surgery and surgeon to Atatürk. He was sponsored by Rockefeller to help create the Sloan Kettering Institute. His daughter, my aunt married the Turkish sublime General commander of NATO forces, General of ground forces and National security advisor.
Pagalı ibrahim, was a poor fisherman son but became the right hand of Suleiman, the magnificent.
The Ottomans would collect children from the poorest and give them a portal to the heights of world power.
Part of the collapse was that the Pasha became greedy and power-hungry, like the Armenian Pasha, who began arming his own people, and killing his own people to create his own state.
Aferin çok haklı ve doğru bir tespit.
Yep, their meritocracy was way ahead of it's time and the collapse happened when it turned into a Nepotistic free for all
There is no justification to taking someone’s child no matter how poor they are
@@mrspalestine You are judging those times with today's values. At that time, they were especially willing to give their children and prayed to their gods that their children would be chosen. I know it sounds strange but that's how it was. For example, let me give another example from the Serbs. Sokollu Mehmed Pasha stood out as a master politician during his 14-year term as Grand Vizier and played a primary role in many military and political successes. Another distinctive feature of his is that he was never dismissed from any of his posts during his 60 years of state service and was always assigned to a higher position. At that time, a British or French ambassador would wait at his door for at least 5-6 months to meet with this man. After undergoing certain training (speaking properly, showing respect, including bowing your head. Without eye contact), you could talk to the Grand Vizier. The second most powerful man in the world was a Serb. The first was a Turk. Suleiman the Magnificent. Of course, we did not call him a Serb and did not discriminate based on race. The Ottomans never did anything like that. As a Turk, that Serb is my ancestor in flesh and blood.
@@mrspalestine If you do not believe in Muslim sources, I recommend you to read the books of Greek Ordinary Professor Dimitri Kitsikis. He introduces himself as an Ottoman, not a Greek. He explains these historical issues so well that you will be surprised.
Listening to this incredible dialogue, I realized how whitewashed I am. I am trying to have a paradigm shift. Muslims need to learn our history from our own people. Next, we need great PR to disseminate this true knowledge.
Lets also try not to brown-wash the history. Let history be the history without any political agenda. As a Turkish person, most of the things discussed are incorrect, driven by a political ümmet agenda.
I have a Turkish friend with a PHd in Political Theory and he is soo frustrated that he must recite HIS Turkish history through the lens of Europeans, otherwise he won't get published or hired to teach anywhere outside Turkey. Western academia doesn't want to understand Turkish history through a Turkish lens.
Though the Ottoman Empire has fallen, its spirit endures, like an ember beneath the ashes. In the heart of every believer, the dream of unity stirs, undimmed by time. One day, we will rise, bound by faith, to gather the scattered, and reunite the ummah once more, rekindling the flame that once lit the world 🇹🇷🕋 Ya Allah, Bismillah
Dr yakoob is great. Thanks for having him.
I was carrying my stuff into my new home from the van and the nexy door neigbor approached to say hi. Turned out he was Kosovan. When he found out i was Turkish he got upset and said we occupied them for years. Long story short i asked his name; Alex, his religion, Christian his language Albanian. I said if the Ottomans occupied you you would have been a muslim called Mehmet and we would be doing this conversation in Turkish. He left hating me more. I dont condone invations but ask a black person or a Palestinian the meaning of invation and occupation.
I am a historian by profession and I can say that his historic and particularly ottoman worldwiev is so clear of prejudictions. A very learned scholar.
Go back to school...
Coffee was actually a part of marital law. It was in the law books written that, If the husband could not or did not provide coffee for the wife, it was grounds for divorce in Ottoman Turkish Law.
The ban of coffee was a Christian Pope because it was considered a muslim drink. When Ottomans withdrew from the battlefield, this bean was left behind. It was illegal, until the pope baptized a bag and called it a Holy Christian drink now. True factoid.
as a turk I am proud of the ottomans and how they served islam for over 600 years
Thinking Muslim in essence is a top notch source for the revival of Ummatic self esteem motivation and above all bonding and unification
The esteemed guest here provided historic perspective on the topic in a very befitting articulate almost spiritual way
How come no one thought about the fact that ottoman declibe coincides with the fact that west discovered, plundered and murdered a whole new continent, enslaved another, stole the resources while giving them smallpox, commin cold, etc. and ottomans were a mediterranean nation that has no shores to atlantic to do something about it
As a Muslim Turk I found this so amazing. I'm so proud of every single Muslim who stands against to distortions of western orientalists from Indonesia to Morocco. Please pray for our Ummah's reunification
Şimdilik videoyu izleyecek zamanım olmadı da, Osmanlı adına ne dedi yani genel olarak olumlu muydu olumsuz mu?
@@Ahmett__ Tarafsız ve daha çok olumluydu
The way he answered the first answer is extraordinary
There are over a dozen grand vezirs who were Devsirme (convert christian children), Zagnos pasa, Rum Mehmed Paşa, Veli Mahmud Paşa, Yunus Paşa, Rüstem Paşa, Mehmed Paşa of Sokol, Kuyucu Murat Paşa, ibrahim pasa of Parga etc etc Also almost all Navy commanders were devsirme..My favorite one is the story of great naval commander (became grand vezir for a short period) Yusuf Sinan pasa of Cicala..The guy was from noble blood from Messina Italy, fell slave after a naval battle with his father, brought back to istanbul, his father waqs released later but the son stayed, attended devsirme school and quickly rose among military ranks, became Naval commander and had many victories, at some point in time his family came to power in italy (with his help obviously)..he would time to time visit his mother in italy with the ottoman navy (he was loved much so the sultan wouldn't make it a problem J)..rival dynasties in italy would ask the pope to request a signed letter of him stating he wasn't landing to italy to punish them for their past crimes against his family, which he would respond to something like " I am still a nobleman of higher blood than yours, my word alone should suffice or else!"..The famous neighborhood of "Cagaloglu" in istanbul is named after him..They should make a movie about this guy for certain! He was such a character man J Original italian name was "Scipio of cicala"
So, technically, Sinan Pass was more renegade (someone who fell astray from Christianity to embrace Islam) than devsirme?
@@muratgurol446 Obviously, Islam was the religion of the superior people in the eyes of the Europeans in those times, up until the late 18th century (look up Turquerie in wiki)..Most of the families sent their children willingly, (in fact this system is borrowed from the Roman empire) their children had an opportunity to rise in status and often would benefit from it themselves..the whole town of Sokol gained great privileges once Mehmed pasa became grand vezir..you should read diaries and biographies of these pashas..it was pretty much the exact opposite of the times we're in now unfortunately..muslims trying to flee to the lands of the west, rightfully so because of the welfare/justice/opportunity/hope in those lands!
My favourite is Kılıç Ali Paşa (Occhiali) Son of an Italian fisherman, set off by a ship towards being a pastor in a christian religious school, found himself on the way to being Kaptan-ı Derya (Grand Admiral) of the Ottoman navy! :) His mosque in Karaköy İstanbul is a must visit & must pray in.
@@muratgurol446 Well technically he was a devsirme, religion even today is more a cultural matter than an intellectual one, much less than 1% of people choose their religion, the ottoman empire was the center of power and high culture back then, up until the end of 18th century, the whole Turquerie movement is evidence of that, paintings of my much beloved David Hume who was an avid atheist in ottoman attire should suffice to prove that, like the muslims of today fleeing to europe and the us today, christians those days were longing to belong to the ottoman empire, every street in every western city was flooded with horseshit up until the end of 20th century you should keep that in mind..quite the contrary of the cenery today
@@pinaryonter59 Uluc Ali as many of us know him today, legendary man! He should be to us what Captain Cook is to the Brits..another movie to make most definitely!
I hate to sound like a broken record but again I’m blown away by the depth of conversations I find on this channel.
As a person who has been very interested in Ottoman history for over 20 years and obviously consumed most of what I know from western sources. I had no that most Muslim nations outside of Turkiye were also consuming their Ottoman history from western sources.
That is really strange on a fundamental level. That would almost be akin to France’s entire knowledge base on what the Roman Empire was being seen through the looking glass of what the Chinese for example thought of the Romans. Or better yet how the modern Middle East saw the Romans.
I’d imagine it hard to build deep meaningful ties with anyone after having zero basis or knowledge of the shared history between the two groups. Or worse when your only knowledge about them is based on false narratives which I’d imagine are harmful.
You learn something new and interesting here all the time.
The line up of panelists of late has been nothing short of spectacular, Maashaa Allah.
Amazing work, I am a Muslim from India living in Germany and I love history in general and Ottoman history in particular. May Allah reward you both immensely for this. Keep growing
All well-meaning Muslims have a particular predilection and warm regards to the Ottoman period in particular. And if a Muslim does not, then that person's deen is in question, in my absolutely honest opinion. There are usually 3 types of people that vehemently speak negatively about the Ottoman period, these are 1) "Western" powers who hate to see an Islamic empire thrive 2) Sahyoonis (along with their middle eastern allies) 3) Wahhabi types
@@snakejuce I know a few "Wahhabi types" (Muslim brothers Alhamdulillah) who even though might not be fans of the Ottoman rule, they have their issues, but stay neutral and leave the matter to Allah, which is the best thing to do as Ottomans don't even exist to defend themselves.
@snakejuce Honestly, I have heard more Indians say positive things about the British than Arabs say anything positive about the Ottomans. Which is interesting because the post-Ottoman middle east has not been great.
@@juniorjames7076 Indians adopted British language and culture and are connected to Anglo/British economic, financial, political and legal systems. This is not the case with the Arabs, there was a complete break-up between the Arabs and the Turks post-Ottomans.
@@f1aziz Indians adopted English because India has 50+ languages, and you need some language to communicate. English, not being an Indian language, became that language. Also, before the British left, they had established economic, financial, political, and legal systems, and to continue with them was easier than scrapping out and installing a new system.
I found Turkish TV years ago. I used to send money to assist with translations. My interest began in earnest after watching the Abdul Hamid II episodes on Turkish TV not "western Netflix" which has nothing of interest for me.
Both Western mainstream media and current Turkish mainstream media are toxic about history, not only about Ottomans but about history in general.. They are full of bullshit and lies, I highly recommend you to stay away.
in TV show, Abdulhamid II is inaccurate description of him. There were a lot of things done by other sultans of Ottoman Empire, which TV showed it as if it was done by Abdulhamid II
As an American revert to Islam, this is a fascinating perspective I rarely get to hear. Well done, gentlemen.
You’re a shame for your ancestors
Did you read the Ahzap sure before? At least 50-53.. those made me a deist..😅
Another comment from me: we need more of this. I love the deep discussion in this world full of tiktokers.
Actually as an Arab, I'd love to learn more about the history of Islam in the Indian subcontinent
Read the 'Kitab Al Hind' by Abu Rayhan Al Biruni first and then 'Tarikh Ferishta' by Abul Qasim Ferishta, as a starter
I would like to know why arabs are fans of Nicki Minaj 😂
The Arabs had to choose between the (Ottoman) Turks and the Israel. No way that they could do by their own. Israel was their choice. Thats it.
First of all, there is nothing wrong with "the Israel." Boiling down the struggle for the independence of the Arab nations to two nations who were not even contemporaries of each other is a disservice to Arab nationalists that arose outside of the Sykes-Picot paradigm.
@@thejusticechannel13 nothing wrong about Israel for the Turks.... for the Arabs, they clearly 'feel' something is going on badly.
Those Arab nationalists that you mention; nationalists are (Arab or other) have a tendency to be on the wrong side
They did it by themselves. Keep selling kebabs turk
1:01:34 I need to add that Balkans vastly Turkish-Muslim population until early 1800s. Then The longest genocide of history has started till 1922. Slavs, Bulgars, Serbs, Greeks, Romanians killed more than non-military 5 millions people and forced to immigrate around 9-10 million predominantly Turkish Muslims. That's why today in Bulgaria, there is no muslim or in Serbia.
If you ask Balkan immigrants of Turkish people, they will their forefathers homeland probably in Bulgaria, Albania, Macedonia, Greece, Serbia or around Romania. That doesn't mean they are ethnically not Turkish. They were Turks in Balkans.
pls stfu,u have no idea what are u talking about
Ottomans did not have much population at the beginning, they were the smallest 'beylik', but on the frontier. They made alliances with Christians to make up for the deficit. After they crossed the straights, they started recruiting from Christians. Keep in mind that local Christians hated Venetians more,
and they would prefer Ottomans over Venetians. To be selected for the service was very competitive, and they did not view it as slavery. Talented kids would be sent to palace school.
That's true in really long extent. In 1990's there were still nomadic Turkish people who live in free pasture field to pasture fields.
Evrenos bey, köse mihal(ovic), turahanogullari where the first alliances that isnt mentioned anywhere
Being on frontier, doing ‘gaza’ to the Christians and abundance of the spoils from raids and wars made Ottomans most suitable beylik for all migratory Turkic tribes so in terms of manpower, I don’t think smallest beylik would be correct
@@zafertav7874 Spoils? Cows or sheep? The republican regime hated Ottomans to the core, and you are simply repeating their false claims they copied from the French. It is nonsense. Ottomans had a taxation system like any other, and they viewed the welfare of their subjects as quintessential to their statecraft. Their demise is mainly rooted in demographics. Their population decreased while Europe and Russia was exploding from 1700 on.
@@almazchati4178 I was referring to beginning, I’m not sure how did you misinterpret my comment.
Great podcast, very timely too with a lot of ill informed people teaching nonsense about the Ottomans, even by badly informed so called muslim scholars. It would be great if you could find someone like Dr Ahmed on the Mughals.
Saudis
agreed, we need a Mughal equivalent for sure!
@@shehzebimam4991Mughals we’re plunderers who came to India to loot,enslave and destroy places of worship…no Indian king ever invaded or attacked any Muslim country..still Mohamad gaznavi ,khilji,Ghori,Qasim,Babar invaded India to spread peace and harmony as prescribed in your book..they looted ,slaughterd millions of Indians,destroyed thousands of temples and enslaved helpless women for 800 years….thousands of out Rajpoot women used to commit mass suicide to avoid been rap*d and enslavd by these invading moguls….
@@shehzebimam4991I personally would not mind getting a prospective of the Mughal empire from a descendant of actual Mughals.
Brilliant. Dr Yaqoob should write a book to counter the oriental view on Ottoman history.
Thanks for the great guest!
wallah Thinking Muslim coming with 🔥I LOVE DR. YAKOOB!!!! please we need more Ottoman info
Remember the hadith of our Prophet! He said many nice things about the commander and the army that conquered Istanbul. All the administrators of the Ottoman Empire were rulers who came from that lineage and had the same ideals as Fatih Sultan Mehmet. As a muslim, I am proud of them. May Allah be pleased with them for their service to Islam.
The army conquers Constantinople with takbir, not a siege and 7 months later the Dajjal appears. He’s not talking about the Turks. Maybe you hadn’t read that part
@@Nobody-q2jwho is he talking about?
@@alituncer4245 the people who conquer Constantinople from the kufar. If you think it’s happened already then you are basically saying Mahdi, Dajjal, and Esa have already came and passed
Great podcast, thank you!!
Alhamdulilah for a thoroughly stimulating session. I have been trying to learn islamic history of late and look fwd to Dr Yaakoob book on the Ottoman Empire history.....
This man is a gem
Correction: The majority of people in Syria and Egypt are believed to have become Muslim by the 12th century not the Ottoman period.
When you read the Ottomans from Western sources, you get false-informed as the Westerners couldn’t stand Ottomans/Turks/Muslims and that Ottomans captured their holy empire, the Eastern Roman Empire. Fall of the empire is at 1453, however they started to call it Byzantine first in the mid of 1500s by German historians. Because their holy empire shouldn’t have captured by a Muslim Turkish empire. So they started to name it Byzantine after 100yrs of the fall :).
Moreover, you cannot even find a paper in Eastern Roman archives that “Byzantine” term was used. They never call themselves Byzantine :).
Even later - the term Byzantines is a product of 19th century orientalist. And what's most regrettable is that even Turkish scholars refer to Eastern Rome as the Byzantines, which is an imperialist narrative.
It is a great feeling to hear such a high level discussion about Ottoman history. As a Muslim Turk, I haven’t had a chance to have this conversation even in the formal education classes of the Turkish Republic, let alone in the Arab countries.
Amazing. Would love an episode like this about the Mughals to counter Hindutva rhetoric. Adnan Rashid would be a great guest for this.
First time listening to a podcast from this channel, and the whole discussion was on point. Many thanks to the host and the guest!
Just to expand on the Devshirme system, which was a topic of interest when I was reading about Ottomans. The ethicality of the system is another discussion topic, but I want to explain what exactly it was and why it was there. First, describing it as "taking kids from families" is a very reductionist way of approaching the topic. Devshirme was very well-thought to keep both sides happy. To mention a few rules: it was one kid per 10 to 40 families; if the family has only one son, it wouldn't be taken; they would have to be at a certain age (10-15); if a family gave a kid, they would be exempted from paying taxes; and the list of rules goes on.
The kids would be given to Turkish families to be taken care of and learn Islamic teachings until they are old enough to get higher educations. They would mainly be trained by the military unless they had talents in other fields. Ultimately, they would become a part of the special forces in military or high rank officials in the palace. There is a consequential reason why they were specifically trained to have high ranks.
Devshirme was developed right when Ottomans began to advance very rapidly as a state, early 1400s. At the time, Turks would live as familial tribes in Anatolia, and Ottomans were becoming a structured state. Inevitably, other Turkish tribes became a part of the state and started taking roles in the government. People in these roles started favoring their own family/tribe, and Ottomans wanted to prevent this problem getting out of hand early on. Thus, Devshirme system was developed. That's why there were many viziers, grand viziers, engineers and high rank army officials from Devshirme system. The aim was to train people who are only loyal to the state and the sultan, in contrast to merely increasing the number of soldiers in the army.
This system worked as intended for about 200 years, and it was extremely successful at averting any corruption in the government. As a matter of fact, Devshirme system started failing when Turkish families bribed the officials to take their kids in order to have family in bureaucracy.
Whether you think Devshirme was ethical or not, strategically speaking, it was a very successful way of building a loyal and reliable bureaucracy at that time. It also yielded some of the greatest minds of the time like Mimar Sinan.
No other countries had todays ethics those days, devshirme system is the most ethical system I've ever heard about the era. Still no humanity in western world, check Bosnia & Palest. slaughters.. :(
I like the way Dr Yaqoob pauses and thinks about the question and then asks a counter question in a philosophical way. For example he asks what is moderanity? How do you define modernaity? Is it a way to synchronise or what? And then he build his entire argument around that question. I think all Muslims needs to ask questions and stop believing in things which are put out of context. To understand moderanity we need to understand how our ancestors think about moderanity? When we say knowledge is only in books we should pause and think for a moment and say he what I just heard was also knowledge etc etc.
I thought coffe was prohibited because the Portuguese controlled the routes where coffee was coming out of, and buying coffee would mean supporting/strengthening the Portuguese kingdom, as Ottomans fought/ were fighting on several fronts with the Portuguese.
Maybe there were those considerations in place as well.
I think the point he's trying to make is that there were multiple considerations including political ones at play. It wasn't simply ignorant people making random rulings, it's a lot more complex and considered than that.
At coffee shops, janissaries were gathering and planning for a coup; they were also do agenda and propaganda against the ottoman sultan. So, due to the intelligence sultan Got from his intelligence servise he made this coffee ban.
YES THAT WAS ONE OF THE REASON, BECAUSE MOST OF THE COFFEE WAS PLANTED IN SOUTH EAST ASIA AND THE PORTUGUESE WERE FIGHTING WITH MUSLIM IN SOUTH EAST ASIA AND INDIA.
No, that has nothing to do with the historical facts. First of all, Europeans got coffee from Ottomans. Second, most of the Ottoman coffee came from Yemen, and some from Oman. Why do you think most common type of coffee in Brazil is Arabica. Because, it came from Yemen. Unfortunately, Yemen later stopped producing coffee. They have been using the land they used to grow for qat farming now.
@@wewenang5167Not really, coffy is originally from ethiopia and grow in yemen as well, both had land routes to ottomans and parts of them was under ottoman control. Not to count, there was still land trade going from china and india to ottomans for a very long time
His description of devşirme was quiet wrong.
The reason they took mainly non Muslims to become sultan's personal guards or statemen was so they wouldn't have any connection to outside and be able to have claims to power! Only a small part of the forces were devşirme (yeni çeri) so not every non muslims had to give away their sons but a small part when needed and mostly they competed to give away their sons for a great future. That is also the reason the sultans mainly married harem girls.
Adamın anlattığı ile senin söylediğin şeyin alakası yok.
@@ozanbayrak562 Nasil? Yani anlattigi yanlis benim anlattigim tarihtir.
@@Bizmyurt Adam, devşirme sisteminin nasıl olduğu ile ilgili konuşmadı ki! Videonun neredeyse tamamı Osmanlı dönemine karşı oryentalist bakış açısının ve bakış açısının sorulara bile etki etmesinden bahsetti ve tarihi bakışın nasıl olması gerektiğinden bahsetti; devşirme konusu oradan açıldı.
@@ozanbayrak562 Kacirmisin, tabi anlatti yoksa bosuna yazmazdim!
@@Bizmyurtdevşirme konusuna kısaca değindi ama videodan anladığı kadarıyla insaların aklında devşirme denince abd deki kölelik sistemi gibi bir şey canlanıyor, devşirmenin ne olduğunu tam olarak anlamamışlar. Hoca da ona kosaca değindi ama sizin dediğiniz noktalara değinip önce devşirmenin mantığını bir açıklaması gerekiyordu. 1 2 nokta gözetilerek değil birden çok yapı düşünülerek yapılmış bir sistem devşirmelil çünkü. Ama hoca da tam da bu yüzden bana soru sormanızı değil tarihi biraz araştırıp bu oryantalist bakış açısından kurtulmanızı istiyorum dedi.
To understand Arabs in general read memories book "Gazavat-i Hayreddin" of Barbaros Hayreddin Pasha. There you will read struggles between Turks and Portuguese/ Spanish and cooperation of Arab leaders/ tribal beys/chiefs with Spanish while Turks try to fire them from coasts of North Africa. This is 16th century. Also to understand newer character read Lawrence activities beginning 20th century.
He basically says Arabs are untrustworthy, unorganized and undisciplined creatures by nature and not fit for soldiering profession at any level.
Turks literally sold off and betrayed Algeria
Another exceptional guest and episode of TTM. Loved every minute. Especially the reality behind the printing press ban and the partial coffee ban. Thank you as always Br. Jalal!
All the topics covered here are intriguing and fascinating.well done thinking muslim❤ the ottoman empire❤️
The truth is that many Christian Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians... became muslim. The reason why we dont see them around is because they integrated into Turkish population. Espeacially after Ottomans lost Balkans.
I learned a lot from this video. Thank you brothers ❤
Mashalah very useful podcast, thank you and jazakumullahu khayr, The Ottoman history is one of the most neglected in the world, unfortunately the Turkish state is not paying enough attention and resources to explore this 700 years old empire which ruled 32 countries in three continents, i heard once from an islamic historian scholar Sheikh Ragheb Sarjan who is one of the best islamic historian saying some of the main obsticles of exploring the Ottoman history, he said that there are at least 7 million untranslated files in Turkey let alone the other millions of historic files in the balkans, the lavant, north africa and the Caucases, the other obstical he mentioned was the disconnection between the classical old Turkish which was written in arabic and which these files were recorded and the modern Attatorkean latin written modernTurkish. So, the Islamic world especially Turkey needs to alocate huge funds and scholars to explore and record this history deeply and academically. Shukran
Its a conundrum for modern Arab intellectuals. It seems you can't call yourself a modern (or patriotic) Syrian, Egyptian, Tunisian, etc if you have anything good to say about the Ottoman years. Were the Ottoman's to Yemen the equivalent as the French to Algeria or Senegal? Britain to India? I have heard Indians say more positive things about the British than Egyptians or Lebanese say anything positive about the Ottomans.
@@juniorjames7076thats the only reason we have 7 million untranslated files ..Turks but more importantly all islamic world has been seperated and destroyed massivly not just by war but by education before and after ww1 .untill today there is no sign of a peace in omajority of Ottoman led states up untill today.not only muslim states buy also balkan states too.İf Egypt and Lebanon or Algeria talk more positive about french and english in your case,well its very simple to answer .is because they asimilated and genocided those nations really fast…nor because they are angels.Brits went to Australia and New Zealand and killed Maori and Abeogine culturea ib such a short time .they even think Jesus is Maori.İn rotorua churches christ is Maori…Where Turks or Ottomans have let people of the stete live freely in their languages and culture and religion masive portion of their denisty
Give details please. When Sarjan said that ''7 million files are waiting to be translated''? Please type the name ''Halil İnalcık''. Each historian knows that they can start with this monumental historian of Ottoman Empire. There is surely no 7 million non-translated document or else. We are not expecting some discovery of a document coming from some Ottoman Turkish documents in Albania or else. Atatürk is the reason they are standardized in a scientific way in academies- oh and he is the FIRST leader in Turkish history that called a well-known respected theologian and Quran scholar and ask him to translate the book to common Turkish.
@@mertnecati875 the lectures of the islamic historian Dr Ragheb alserjani on the history of the ottoman empire is in youtube, a total of 11 lectures in arabic, the quote i made on my post is on the first and second lectures, youtube will not allow me to post the link but if you copy and paste this on you tube it will popup.
قصة الدولة العثمانية: محسنة الصوت - د. راغب السرجانى
@@juniorjames7076😲😲😲
💯years gone already
Still ‼️
Thank you so much for this conversation. We need more like this.
1:20:05 OTTOMAN EMPIRE is ENGLISH name fit for KINGS. The official name was Devlet-i aliyye Muhammediyye ., meaning the great state of Muhammed the prophet.
Awesome podcast as it always is with Dr. Yakoob!
Would love to have an episode dedicated to the Tanzimat era with hoca.
Jazaka Allah khayran Dr Ahmad!
I’m looking forward to reading your book!
We are all Ottomans, all Muslims. That's the only way forward. With the restoration of the Khalifate and all the Muslim nations together.
Absolutely amazing how Dr. Ahmed answered and explained every question holistically.
Especially the question about the claim "the Ottomans were never a Khalifate" was devastating.
A possible reason that the Khalifate had to be Arab, if not Kuraic, shows in essence that this idea is nationalistic, ethnic or racist.
This is of course absolutely prohibited in Islam !!!
Great podcast! Any recommendations about books on the history if the ottoman empire? Thank you
I can suggest Halil İnalcık’s books
I guess its a conundrum for modern Arab intellectuals. It seems you can't call yourself a modern (or patriotic) Syrian, Egyptian, Tunisian, etc if you have anything good to say about the Ottoman years. Were the Ottoman's to Yemen the equivalent as the French to Algeria or Senegal? Britain to India? I have heard Indians say more positive things about the British than Egyptians or Lebanese say anything positive about the Ottomans.
Thank you for this interview
Excellent discussion! Thank you so much! I would be interested in hearing Dr. Ahmed’s commentary/analysis of Benedict Anderson’s _Imagined Communities_ on the printing press, “simultaneity,” religion, nationalism & the nation state
Such a conscientious and deep thinking speaker, maa shaa Allah, and the interviewer's acceptance of his overturning his whole stance opened up some really worthwhile insights . Jazzakum allahu khairan.
Platforming such intellectuals is paramount to decolonizing the Muslim mind.
Indeed, brother
Amaizing talk, very well thought out, in depth and arguments made.
Can we not say Ottoman like the british because it was so hard for them to pronounce Osman or Uthman. Like think of it. The founders name is Osman. But the empires name suddenly becomes Ottoman? We don't say Ottoman in turkish. We say Osmanlı Devleti.
osman değil aslında ataman o (Türk ismi) halil inalcık kitabında belgeleriyle yazıyor.
Liked how you first described the devşirme system around 54:00 mark and than went "this is what it means, now make up your mind accordingly".
Better example then Mimar Sinan would have been Sokullu Mehmet Paşa who was the grand vizier during the height of ottoman power. He was originally an orthodox christian Serb. We know this because when he visited these lands, his mother seeing the birthmark on his face recognized him. After that he made his brother the head of Serbian Orhadox church.
And there are many many more examples of devşirme grand viziers and pashas (including made famous by Turkish soap operas, İbrahim Paşa)
A wonderful point made by the guest about the decline of the ottoman empire .
The saudi leaders cant even a toe of an ottomann farmer
Ahhaha that's why the Ottoman farmer or empire doesn't exist and Saudi Arabia does exist?
@@NadidLinchestein lol it is like asking where are the arabic empires in modern time lol
@@bbbkk-q9t Uneducated turk, You live off Saudi loans & in German factories.
@@NadidLinchestein Saudi Arabia exist because they never wanted to be sovereign but an extension of the British. Ottoman farmer survived as a sovereign Turkish farmer. They ruled themselves. Not driven by emperialist racist kuffar wild west.
@@NadidLinchestein & Ottomans were always called Turkish by the western world by the way. So we can again say Ottoman farmer exists as Turkish farmer.. still.
How about us the audience; can we order a The Thinking Muslim mug?
We shall make this happen inshallah.
@@TheThinkingMuslimjust put them on a website for sale jeez. ‘We’ll make it happen’. Talking like it’s as difficult as reviving the Ottoman Empire 🤦🏻
Sh. Mustafa Sabri has never received due discussion of his contributions. Please find a scholar who would shed light on him. JAK.
Amazing podcast as always. I feel more intelligent and inspired after watching it! I would also love to get a hold of the TTM mug would enjoy drinking my morning brew(coffee) from it! 😊 Have you considered selling such a product?
1:32:12 I love this point about finding alternative, and more wholesome, ways of continuously teaching history. Almost as if it needs to be a part of the generational culture
Ottoman's main problem was demographic. Whille the population of Europe was increasing starting from 1700's, Ottoman population was declining. Their policy towards the Europeans were based on exploiting the rivalries between them. That was not always successful especially after the rise of Russia. Printing press issue is exaggerated. Also, culturally they were still nomadic, and did not focus that much on agriculture. I think what caused its demise is
inapptitude of the Union and Progress party and their hatred for Ottomans.
Technological setbacks regarding the military also played a crucial role in the last 200 year or more maybe.
It's a good point of view. but I would say this about the union and progress party: the longer the death of the sick man was delayed, the greater the destruction that followed. that's why it had to die and be reborn. the ottoman was beyond saving.
@@emretarhan0 Not really. Union and Progress were fools believing progress was too slow. Yes, it was slow but they were moving in the right direction, infrastructure and education had made big strides, and it was peacefull. They surrendered the country to Germans. Probably Sultan Hamid never thought that they could be such idiots, otherwise he would crush their bones. The Republican Regime was a British puppet, masquerading as nationalist, doubling down on the idioticity. of Union and Progress had killed all intellectual capacity and creativity.
We became an US puppet after 1960, after Menderes was eliminated. Turkiye became independent only after Erdogan. I hope he continues.
Cup certainly did not hate ottomans but influenced by the ideas of its age, much like other organizations/parties in ottoman empire
@@Zartzurt-b5x They were working for Germans. Germany staged 1908 coup. Germany was financed by the Jewish money
from the very beginning. Demanded from the Ottomans to be recognized as protector of Jews, which was refused. Brits
and Germans somehow managed to split military schools in the Balkans between the two. German side staged the coup. MK was in the German camp initially, but was pushed aside by Enver. He joined the British camp in Palestine. Read Lawrence's memoirs.
Such an educational podcast! Keep up the good work.
1:00:00 bro what do you mean turks and kurds converting in the ottoman period?? Dr they were muslims 300+ years before that you talking about Almuqadimah Dr have you even read it? sooo many funny thing being said here
There's a general understanding that Arabs became Muslim during Rasul Allah's time, reality on the ground was, plenty of pagan Arabs were becoming Muslim even as late as Abbasid period. No group of people ever became Muslim in their entirety in one go, Islamisation as a process is a long and very slow process.
He doesn't have a clue about Ottomons or their history. Just some vague assumptions with no evidences or references.
@Muhammadarubah8672.
It seems his intentions were good and he does bring up philosophical points which are quite interesting.
But when it comes to the nuts and bolts of Ottoman history, he does make some really odd mistakes. Like the one you pointed out, even the Empire from who's ashes the Ottoman empire was built (Seljuks) was a Muslim empire.
How in the world does this guy not know that? Some random guy like me sitting in America knows that and a so-called expert in Ottoman history doesn't? It is very interesting.
Turks started accepting Islam in 751 with the tribes of Karluk, Yagma and Cilgiz accepted Islam and then started spreading it ot the other tribes. The Ottoman empire didn't come for another 300+ years like you said.
@@najmaalikhan Even though his knowledge of the history is quite lacking, I still felt he had something to offer. It was still worth a watch and it was still fascinating.
Surely it would have been better if he actually know Ottoman history lol
Im not sure if he is referring to that but turks and kurds had large amounts of heterogeneous religious practices until pretty recent times. They constituted good portion of the population of their cultures and nowadays its still continue in some parts of anatolia, called alevis and organised in a more shia way (also supported foundation of safavids-people reading this can look into qizilbash tribes), have many beliefs and practices from pre islam anatolia, tengrism and zoroastrians. Also these practices founded many tariqqaas and sufi orders (again one of them are safavids before they found a state, one of them are bektashi order of ottomans that was basis of janissaries, ahi order was important in ottomans for craftsman and mavlavis, founded bu rumi in anatolia, there are much more than that but you guys get the gist of it).
Ottomans forcibly converted those people to more orthodox islam, either by sufi orders
or by forcible means.
I should say it was interesting to watch. Most of Turks aren't even aware of these myth's in general. But Mr.Yakoop seems to have a certain level of understanding about the Ottoman era. But Ottoman's didn't called themselves as an Empire the word was (Devlet-i Ali or Aliyye) meaning (Büyük, yüce devlet) in Turkish. Supreme or Great State in English. No need to describe themselves other than that.
True. Just to add to that, Urdu-speaking Muslims call it "Usmaani Khilafat". The word khilafah is always emphasized as they were brought up by their mothers with the idea that if or when Khalifa calls upon them they are ready to give their lives in an instant. My own family narrated how the womenfolk gave up all their gold, to the Khilafat Movement in the 1920s.
Thank you for again igniting the fact that we should be proud of ourselves
It's sad to see Ottomans get admiration only from Muslim from Southeast Asia. Forget Arabs, even a lot of Turks don't really give them a fair shake.
it's false actualy. all the people in turkey love southeast asian muslims for their historical boundries yet it's not shown on mainstream media enough.
@F1aziz, anyone who has spent a considerable amount of time knows the vast majority of Turks not only give the Ottomans a fair shake, they go beyond that and form a narrative that many times sweeps many bad things under the rug.
What you're saying was probably true from the 1920s to roughly the 1970s. Their narrative of why they went through a traumatic civilizational defeat was because of the faults of the Ottomans. People born after 1970 generally don't hold on to that narrative, they've gone in the opposite direction.
@@yokartiklol not true 😂😂😂
yeah the whole history is centrered around “ataturk”, people are more proud of that guy than an empire.
In the so-called history lessons that were taught to us when I was a student(1976) the Ottomans generally described as like "Dynasty used the Turks while they were rising, but the dynasty gradually lost its Turkishness and did not invest in the Anatolia. gradually the Turks in their own empire became 2nd class and they did not get as much rights as non-Muslims in the empire." in fact, it was described as a state that exploited us. In contrast, there was a very quick time jump to Atatürk from Ottomans in history class and they used to be tell us how he modernized us, how he liberated us from the imperialist Ottoman dynasty and how he broke the so-called brainwashing influence of Islam. Imagine being exposed to this for 6 hours every week for 12(+6) years. The Turkish Republic is structurally a state that denigrates the decadence of the Ottoman state as much as possible and blames it on religion and its law(the sharia). the system is fixed in such a way that it will not change no matter which government comes to power.
Great topic. Also sorry, this is kinda unrelated but can you please try and schedule AH Murad again one of these days? Jzk to both of you.
Great topic? Really|? Muslims are some of the poorest and least educated around the world. Instead of dealing with real issues that affect everyday life we have people masturbating to this fantastical ahistorical nonsense of Imperialistic porn, that won't help any Muslims?
..by the way, most latest Vezirs (2nd, 3rd man after sultan in rank) are of those devshirme (taken from christian families & educated in islamic ways) class.
Turks adopt Islam from Persians not Arabs. This is why we called bayram not eid. There are lots of examples about it. But who am I to judge.
But Turk are Sunni (except for minority Turks and Kurds who are Alevis/Shia)
@@juniorjames7076 Persians werent Shia back then either, in fact many turkic tribes themselves were shia as well like Kizilbash Turkmens
May I suggest recounting all the scientific miracles of the Quran, like we created all living things from water, we brought down iron, we created everything from nothing and are expanding the universe, etc. When did these things become known? It would be very interesting. Thank you.
As a Turk in Germany belonging to a minority, I can understand the Pakistanis in the UK. We all make the same experience. And you will always be welcome in Türkiye!
No, no and no.
@@a.thales7641why
almanya'da yaşıyor, milleti türkiye'ye davet ediyor, allah'ım sabır ver.
Yes yes and yes
You are living in Germany and you invite pakis to turkiye 😂😂
Thank you, that was an education.
The point of view of Dr’s is great and true. You can judge cases and decisions and other things in its time, not with today’s understanding. Ottoman empire did great job in every place they got. If you do not believe this, just check out the situation in balkans, north africa and middle east for the last 100 years!
I feel so honored and happy to meet you Dr Yakoob Ahmed. Thank you for your work on Ottomans because I did not know that there were so many negative ideas about them in the Arab world especially. Britains made them hate us and us hate them after WW1. This is not fair. May be someone who isn' "Turk" would make it right again.
I also loved your idea about how the Ottomans would be if they were still around. I would prefer their ruling today.
By the way I want add a little bit detail. Memluks were Turkish and even before Ottomans took khalifet, they had huge impact on who will the caliphate (halife)be.
with the oil from the gulf and army from Turkey the Ottoman empire of today would be the top 3 power of the world.
anyone catch the name of the journalist that Dr Yakoob mentions at 44:04?
edit: and the name of the scholar at 45:28?
Kasim Kopuz?
Murat bardakçı
Glad to see new ideas fertilizing the way of thinking in an otherwise one dimensional Turkish academia. May Allah bless your work in Beyazit
Interesting and informative, thank you and your guest. Would just kindly suggest avoiding click bait titles that throw out all the subtlety in the discussion out the window.
As a Turkish audience, I got enjoyed and got impressed by Dr.Ahmed answers. I would like to say that it was an interesting podcast for me because I have never seen that before neo-Arap seight about Ottoman.( I got that neo-arap things with the questions). I would like to say my opinions. It looks little bit delusional, also little bit reactional for me. Indeed, It looks like you are trying to increase your legitimacy by rejecting your past or despising Ottoman. But you don't need to that... Okay I know there are some problems in Ottomans history but heeey man, you can not try to say that it is a decline period for 600 years for Islam or they exploitated the Araps. That is not an ignorance, that is malevolence that i can say. You do not need to reject or evilify your past or Ottomans to increase your legitimacy of present arabic country. You just need to accept your past, present and your future with all your existings. Then you can live with in a peace with your current existing. But anyway, I never heard that kind of argument before, I mean that approach... Thank you :)
I didn't find this discussion fruitful tbh. Dr Yakoob is going against the western colonial narrative, that's good. However he doesn't have a substantiated alternative narrative. His points are speculative in nature. Had he shown us some real statistics or references regarding the literacy in Ottomans despite the absence of printing press, it would be more reliable. It's a statistical fact that without physical copy of a book, it is hard to keep up the literacy rates. Certain eager personalities will definitely find their way to reach to books, for sure. However reach of knowledge to the masses relies on availability of physical copies.
But does the western narrative has any evidence?
I think that the problem is that discussion about Ottoman history amongst the Islamic political activist milieu isn't just discussion of a historical era. It's attempting to revive the idea of a Caliphate. They aspire to the restablishment of a similar system in the future. That is partly why Yacoob doesn't have an alternative narrative to promote. We all saw the rise of ISIS. Most people don't want that.
Yes you're right he never made a claim without evidence or proposed an alternative narrative in this podcast, he simply deconstructed some popularised notions which is a good first step for the average muslim to understand before starting off with false assumptions. At the current state of the umma this content is much needed. Maybe not for a history student but very fruitful for the masses imo.
@@oayysz8909 deconstruction is not enough without an alternative narrative. After all, as Muslims we have ask for evidence based on Quranic injunctions.
You haven't understood anything if you're still thinking in terms of literacy rates. He mentioned 3 points regarding this:
1. Major point - knowledge production in the Muslim world placed more emphasis on the oral tradition as opposed the written one. Even written books and poems were expected to be memorised and authors would teach their books, as opposed to readers simply reading them. Hence unlike in Western Europe, low literacy rate does not mean low knowledge production or low access to knowledge.
2. Minor point - data collection in Ottoman censuses was different. They counted households, not individuals as such. That impacts your data on literacy rates.
3. Minor point - literacy rate is not a reflection of intelligence or sophistication of thought (unlike in Western Europe), due once again to the predominance of the oral tradition.
Listened to 15 minutes and got nothing out of it. Very round about nothing direct . Ottomans did fail to industrialise.
Lol what an utterly ill-informed take ...
Was wondering if only I felt like that. Using deconstruction as a deflection is such a cop-out.
Yeah this guy just seems to waffle without making any coherent points
@@notadaneso a historian teaching nuances of human history is dismissed after listening to 15 minutes by an absolute dilhole?
Farangi aulads are debunked and can't handle it
I'm afraid to say, that's what history is. It's more about fitting the proper glasses. The so-called truth is always a narrative, that connects the points of data. And as to your argument, you could say as well the Ottomans failed to reproduce. For it was the sheer population size in Britain and Germany that allowed for an early industrialization (with sources gathered from colonies).