A couple of quick clarifications: 1) To be absolutely clear, SuperMarioT’s CENTRAL thesis is that Miyamoto does not stalk the halls of Nintendo HQ, actively undermining any semblance of a narrative that begins to crop up while other staffers develop games, and I believe he proves this successfully. The real, objective misinformation about Miyamoto is that he goes out of his way to nip narrative elements in the bud, when this is in fact very much not the case. I just think SuperMarioT’s conflation of this with Miyamoto actually valuing narrative elements in games is a bridge too far, as there’s too much evidence to the contrary imo. 2) My turnaround time on this video was unusually fast due to my personal schedule, so there are a few more grammatical errors than usual, which I apologize for - I usually have more time for proofreading. Additionally, at 2:41 I say “signed the death knell” but the term is “signaled the death knell” lol. 3) Technically this is a shill, not a clarification, but for anyone interested, I made a pretty extensive narrative pseudo-retrospective on Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi a few years back, which you can find here: ruclips.net/video/O89Bd1dIlCY/видео.html
I think people like to focus on Miyamoto because he's a big name, but the real important point is just that, regardless of who did it, these changes happened, they've been consistently happening for a long time now, and we dislike them. Even if you could definitively prove that Miyamoto had nothing to do with any of it, it wouldn't change the final products we ended up with.
@@ThrillingDuck Nintendo in house is too busy with other projects, so they would have to hire a third party company to make another F-zero. However since Nintendo has Mario Kart, they feel it's not worth the effort.
@@ThrillingDuck Miyamoto said that Starwars and Thunderbirds were big inspirations for Starfox's World. However because because Starfox games are traditionally short, it makes it difficult to make an in depth story. If fact Miyamoto wanted Starfox Zero to be even more like Thunderbirds, but by doing that it slowed the pace to a crawl ruclips.net/video/pZTPPU09gYE/видео.html. The reason Zero has switchable vehicles, is because Miyamoto wanted to emulate the canceled Star Fox 2.
@@orangeslash1667 See the thing is though, even with short campaigns, Star Fox can still have more involved narratives. We know because it’s been done before: Adventures, Assault, and Command. Say what you want about their individual narrative quality, but they were clearly trying, and for my money they had much more going on than the standard typical Nintendo bookend story.
12:23 wouldn’t this just be because.. he doesn’t care?? yeah he can not want the devs to change anything, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t pro story, he said himself recently he’s fine with stories, just prioritizes gameplay when it’s needed to be (like with here in modern paper mario) I don’t think many people believe he is actively wanting a story
I don't need my Mario RPG stories to be super complex, I just need the games to have a good amount of worldbuilding, a splash of continuity, unique set pieces, and a good, generous helping of original characters with unmistakable character designs. And if the main plot is basic, that doesn't mean the little subplots of the individual chapters can't be the interesting part. Like, Superstar Saga's story wasn't super complex, but it had a new villain, a new Kingdom, tons of new characters and creatures and worldbuilding, and so much personality! That made it fun and fresh and memorable. A new Mario RPG installment doesn't need to have another Super Paper Mario-esque story to be enjoyable. It can just be memorable in its own way. As long as the developers have the freedom to actually make the game they wanna make.
I sincerely love the Mario movie, but I'm not blind to the fact that it did the absolute bare minimum in terms of story with creating a emotional arc for the bros. I enjoyed what they did with the plot and characters but I'm gonna about to say it even remotely holds a candle to the story telling quality of ANY of the Mario rpgs. I fucking laughed when I heard people were genuinely using it as a defence against Minamoto's anti-story nonsense.
As much as I enjoyed it as a nostalgic fan, the only joke I actually laughed out loud at wasn't even Mario related. It was when the bully dog gave them the tough guy nod of approval at the end. That was actually hilarious.
So tl;dr, _everyone_ is at fault. I can certainly buy that, since if there were _any_ voices speaking for quality products, you'd _think_ they'd have been vindicated enough after Sticker Star or Color Splash to be given more credence than Origami King suggests... especially when "damaging the brand" is what many people have been saying about these problematic products (you know, the thing that they theoretically are THE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT). It's just... I don't know, they make these great games that no other AAA company does, only to water it down with all of these creatively bankrupt titles, it's maddening! If _anything_ can kill Nintendo, it's not Sony or Microsoft, or even emulation (especially not emulation of systems old enough to not count as piracy)... it's _themselves._ And while some of the slack will be taken up by indies in that scenario, I fear something important would be lost in the process.
Agreed. I am so passionate about Indies, but there's something to be said for the original IPs which inspired them. For better or worse, people like their brands! Spiritual successors can only go so far at the end of the day. I adore Shovel Knight, but I still miss Megaman. I love Bloodstained, but I still miss Castlevania. And Bug Fables may even be objectively better than Paper Mario 64 and arguably even Thousand Year Door, but gosh darn it, I miss (real) Paper Mario!
I never blamed Miyamoto solely for Nintendo creating products that harm arguments that video games are an artistic storytelling medium. He is just part of "the machine." Because in that same "machine" Mario as their mascot gets no personality or writing. Kirby gets none (even though Sakurai way later proved his story and protag potential with Kid Icarus Uprising). Link still doesn't have a personality. The Gamefreak Pokemon games is basically the only living turn-based rpg series that has iredeemably abysmal writing. Splattoon and Arms have really cool worlds and character designs but again no writing to give it meaning. The only parts of Nintendo that get writing or identity are side-projects or Xenoblade and Fire Emblem. Both of which came from studios and I.P.'s Nintendo bought and barely treat like theirs (also Fire Emblem not even doing well with Nintendo's reading-adverse audience until they added the dating sim elements).
@@السراقالمجهول The problem is that Sticker Star was a success, so Miyamoto believes he's right. Starfox Zero may have unperformed, but the 3ds remake barley broke even, so it doesn't even matter.
@@orangeslash1667 you do know that he never touched a paper mario since sticker star right? for fuck sake the last game he directed was mario 64, he just checked on projects from then
@@orangeslash1667 yup, like i said the last time he was ever involved was sticker star and it was just an input he didnt force him to do anything, they just took his words because he is so respected
Thank you SO MUCH for this. No hate for SuperMarioT, but that video was so aggravating. I just wish someone would make a video on why the Mario Movie is a complete mess and extremely lacking in basic screenplay practices. That movie imo is further evidence of Miyamoto's indifference-at-best/incompetence-at-worst (it'll probably be me, but uuuuugggghhhh)
My pleasure lol, I needed to vent after watching that video. Also, I think even among those who enjoyed the movie for what it was (myself included), it's generally agreed that it wasn't a great film in a vacuum, the way something like Puss in Boots: The Last Wish was. I just so want the shackles to finally be taken off Paper Mario again. I replay Thousand Year Door every couple years or so, and it still holds up so well, and I still discover new builds and strategies and laugh at new jokes I didn't remember. I'm all about accepting games on their own terms, but no sane person can play Origami King and TYD back to back and say there isn't a massive gap between them. Every time I replay any of the original Paper Mario games I get frustrated with the current state of the franchise all over again lol.
It genuinely makes me sad that the Mario Movie outperformed legitimate masterpieces like GotG 3 and Spiderverse 2 despite it being so soulless. The same way I feel sad abt the Mario series popularity over something like Klonoa or Celeste.
Soulless corporations attracting soulless toxic fan boys with a name and a picture and call it IP, is the best fly paper. Seething over the nostalgic fantasy that attracts them but not being able to project what happiness might feel like, is just a bonus. The main point is that actually good PROJECTS stay under the radar and gain moderate success, when Miyamoto doesn't smear them with the crusty IP. It's like not getting a fan work striked by nintendo, you want to keep mum about actually well-made GAMES so nobody like PAper Mario fans will actually imprint on them and start making demands. The mob rule strike isn't even an IP YOU invented, just one you feel entitled to, for it happening to have been smeared over a better project in the past. Back when snarky anboys actually applied themselves adn GOT those jobs, instead of coding piracy software funded by pom ads, back when capitalism sometimes happened. I'm so glad somebody like Toby Fox doesn't waste his talent making Earthbound games as a new generation of Nintendo emloyees. And Sakurai buzzed off, good for him, too. Not getting SUCH a celebrity status that you feel entitled to start dehumanizing them as some god-like icon for you to hate. Looneys like Hollywood scientologists are createed out of YOUR culture of slave-minded inferiority complex, "just swap his name with the name of his cult lol". So some people are like Sakurai, and others succumb like Mel gibson.
The Mario movie is mediocre as hell in my opinion. The characters are underdeveloped, barely chemistry going on, writing is not good, story is nothing to write home about and nothing special, and has rush pacing. It's really just whatever and it's just there. If anything all that shows is that Myiamotto puts NSMB syndrome on the Mario Movie and doesn't care about high class narrative for Mario, even when it comes to the movie. It makes sense Myiamotto "overlooking the project" is just him helping Illumination's philosophy further just making an ok movie with a story not going much for it. Whether Myiamotto or Nintendo as a whole for their 1st party Mario IP. Doesn't matter, it's all agreed upon. That's why I also don't buy Myiamotto opening up an idea for a Mario movie is proof he's more open to higher narrative story for Mario and to be less rigid for Mario. Because even the film didn't show that.
I wouldn't take as much issue with people defending Miyamoto if they didn't just use it as a way to point the finger at a different guy.Tanabe has made a bunch of questionable decisions in his time, but the amount of people I see who paint him as if he's some insane lunatic who simultaneously is so egotistical in his design that he not only destroyed Paper Mario, but kept going down the same path so clearly he fully agrees with his work, but if you ask him anything about it he lies and blames Miyamoto and Nintendo for restricting him. It just doesn't make any sense, and the cherry picking in interviews they have to do to de-credit his claims, because once again in their minds he loves his creative decisions so much he has to lie about them, drives me insane. If there wasn't someone to deflect onto, maybe we would have been long past this entire debate.
1) That is an extremely low bar that shouldn't be taking 10 years to clear when we were already so far beyond it with the original 3 titles. 2) Origami King is still a dumpster fire game, even if the story is "more okay" than Color Splash's.
@@ThrillingDuckOrigami King is an excellent game with a good story. Plus several things about the game are better than the first 3 titles in the series in some way
@@lukeskywalker9507 It’s okay. As I indicated above, OK has its strengths, and yeah it’s an overall better experience than SS and CS (again, insanely low bar), but it doesn’t come anywhere near the original 2 entries in basically any department, and it’s so fucking hamstrung by the godawful combat - which is somehow worse than SS and CS’s.
Even the Pikmin games don’t really have that much of an in depth story. I’m not saying they need one though. Although I will say I’m still very confused about whether Pikmin 4 retconned the entire franchise or not. I am more than halfway through the game and I still have no idea. I looked online for answers, but apparently no one else has any idea either
Yeah Pikmin 4 kind of blows everything out of the water. In a developer interview about the game when asked about how the narrative connects with past pikmin game, he even stated to let the players figure out how it fits on timeline. After 100%ing the game, it's apparent what he meant is "We don't have an answer to that", and the game abandons the somewhat connected linear story structure of the past games to pull a Mario or a Zelda where there is no timeline, nothing is actually connected but we'll sprinkle in direct nods to past games just to give people something to talk about. It's very frustrating, and it's kind of my last straw for Miyamoto. I don't know if he's the one who came up with that, as he says he wasn't super involved in the game or anything, but he still let it happen. As he says in the interview, his words carry a LOT of weight, if even Pikmin a series we know he's very dear to can pull this off and he's fine with that, how is anyone supposed to convince me he isn't fine with everything else.
@@Whispernyan The thing is, miyamoto is an oldschool game designer. He was a legends in a time where games where mostly gameplay and story wasnt that important in most genre. But he sadly got the same mindset still, he is struggles to adapt to the times.
15:37 Did you really watched the full video? This is a point that Super Mario T touched on several videos, if somehow he didn't include in this video, he did on their previous one "Debunking Miyamoto Anti-Narrative". I watched a lot of his videos and he said on multiple occasions that this part that "its no longer possible to modify Mario characters" is completely only-Paper Mario thing, no other Mario series have this restriction, specially now in the Switch era, Luigi's Mansion 3 have unique ghosts, Mario Tennis Aces and Super Rush have original bosses, Mario Strikers Battle League created a new character as well, Mario + Rabbids series can modify Mario enemies, hell even the last game on Mario & Luigi games, had new characters, the BFFs. This restriction is only applied to fucking Paper Mario, so its hard to say that Miyamoto doesn't want new characters or ideias in new Mario games, if not he would shut down all of this for other games, how could you not see that Tanabe is the responsible for this? This only is majorly affecting Paper Mario. You are the one that is missing the point, specially to this crucial part.
Did you finish this video? The onus is on Miyamoto to correct this issue. If he cared at ALL he would intervene. Tanabe has done this for 3 games in a row in response to Miyamoto's orders. Miyamoto is Tanabe's superior. This is on Miyamoto - rewatch the Subway example. And for the record, the Rabbids series doesn't modify Mario enemies, and neither does Luigi's Mansion. The ghosts aren't modified Mario enemies, and neither are the Rabbids. Every Goomba and Bobomb that appears in Rabbids are stock standard ones. EDIT: I even spelled this out in the thumbnail. Not Anti-Narrative does not equal Pro-Narrative. AT BEST Miyamoto doesn't care. Now who''s missing the point smh?
@@ThrillingDuck The phrase that is said is "modify Mario characters or create new characters that touch on the Mario universe", I gave examples of the latter part and somehow you didn't even notice right? I guess I should have to say the entire phrase because if not you would nitpick or just doesn't understand.
Great video, I didn't think my comment would spark such a response. Once again you've gotten me to consider a different perspective that I may have never thought of otherwise. This is a really interesting discussion to have, but unfortunately so many people are so passionate about it that it usually just turns into mindless insults. And if you ask me, there's so much more nuance to it than many people from either side like to admit. Its not as simple Miyamoto (or whoever is in charge) definitively hating or liking stories. And that's why it's so fascinating to discuss. So once again, good work on the video.
Hey welcome back, and thanks a lot! I really appreciate it :) Yeah, I wasn't expecting to have so much to say either lol, but I'm glad I have more context into all this as well now, because SuperMarioT did set straight some false assumptions that I had admittedly acquired through the general spread of misinformation. And I couldn't agree more with basically the whole rest of what you just said haha.
I have always agreed that Miyamoto is to blame for the lack of story in most Mario games the last 10-15 years, whether or not he is the only one I cannot say, but we have to remember too that Japan business is so much different to what we are use too, the Japanese always respect there elders in high positions even if the decisions they make are really bad. Unless Miyamoto and Nintendo change there stances on story we are not going to see changes to it anytime soon.
When I hear s### like this about how employees are always expected to just blindly obey their seniors without question, I feel so f###ing angry at the Japanese business culture for having such skewed priorities! Respecting seniority should not have to come at the cost of logical practicality. Like, what if one of their seniors was going senile for example? Any employee should be allowed a chance to be heard in case they have a well-reasoned argument, instead of just blindly obeying orders or "suggestions" without even so much as asking their superiors to clarify what they mean more! There shouldn't have been anything wrong if Tanabe just asked Miyamoto if what he said during Sticker Star's development could still allow for variation in age and gender among the Mario World's species. He could have asked if "only using characters from the Super Mario World" meant species from said world. He could have asked if "the Super Mario World" meant either the SNES game or what's been established thus far in the Mario franchise's world. But no, follow your business culture to illogical extremes instead!
The myamoto hate has always rubbed me the wrong way so i was always 100% on the super mario t train but this video made me look at it in a different way which i respect a lot I do think that his video was framed this way because of the way myamoto was framed himself. It's just a problem with the community as a whole, either he's anti story oe pro story when he's really somewhere in the middle
"Miyamoto does not actively go around to shutdown all seedlings of a story" Not true. He actively shuts them down. Just read the the article "Miyamoto: Why I Spiked Mario Galaxy 2's Story" *Koizumi said that he's been trying to sneak bits of story into Mario and Zelda games for his entire career at Nintendo, even as Miyamoto has been trying to keep them out.I told Miyamoto about what Koizumi had said, and he looked slightly taken aback.* *"He said that?"* *"Yes."* *"Well, I put a stop to that at the beginning, this time," he said, and for emphasis punched the air with his fist."*
Well god damn. I mean, this only feeds into my overall understanding of the narrative - the ones who really need to see that are his defenders. Thanks for the clarification!
This is more or less how I feel. There is something seriously wrong at Nintendo and either no one wants to fix it or no one is allowed to do anything about it.
I'm only 2 mins into the video, came from your RE video about the different character designs. SMT is a friend of mine and his videos on paper mario are so amazing and well researched. Looking forward to your response
Mr. Miyamoto recognises the power of stories and characters although he always prioritized gameplay even giving more "story" through in game details if anything. As for the paper Mario and other series with interesting characters i think it's kind of like something i once heard about Darth Maul, where suposedly George Lucas feared he could became cooler than vader or something....my head cannon is Mr. Miyamoto fears that the Mario franshise loses focus on Mario and some other classic charactes, plus there were characters in paper Mario that were over all more represntation and Nintendo as a whole tries to be apolitical ( which is impossible btw...) and so no taking chances with friendly bob ombs. I'm trying to give my opinion . Also you can double check older games, Mr. Miyamoto also gives priority to the characters he created ... Characters from the land franchise: Daisy only came back to fill roster, no more story for her, Wario was very popular and he is still around but the care put into his first 3d game ....yeah. Rpgs especialy the like of turn based like SMrpg, PaperMario and Mario and Luigi not favoured over the zelda style, which is more action adv or so but some view as rpg and it kind of is in some parts... What characters from Mario rpgs were used in other game ? Geno as a mii costume?.... What i mean is i do really respect Mr.Miyamoto, he created so many things now bigger than himself... i also want to see him be, as said in interviews just a "ghost" checking on the teams at Nintendo, i hope he keeps inspiring but also shares the creative control more, like with the likes of Mr. Koizumi which has brought more stories to the zelda and Mario franshises. I'm just a fan and i rant too, this video was a good watch, young or old gamers do your research, all Nintendo fans like and want to keep liking and loving the exciting games in our favourite franshises, let still be critical of them and the people involved. Let's hope for the best games to come and also replay the best we have already while we can, life is short✌️
I've been saying this, i could give a rat's ass about who are putting these restrictions on paper mario, I just care that they are happening. Ive seen this ridiculous tendency to kinda handwave away concerns by saying stuff like, "it isnt their fault they're working as best they can under these limitations." But it's the same concept: avoiding the heart of the matter by focusing on a completely different person or concept. In other words, I don't care if Miyamoto is ruining the story/creativity or if the developers are trying as hard as they can under these ridiculously stipulations, I care that it IS happening. This definitely doesn't apply to everyone, but it seems like some of them are deliberately missing the point to pretend like Nintendo HASN'T been going against common fan demand in this franchise since 2011.
If anything the rest of Nintendo should be looking to the old Paper Mario games for inspiration. Imagine a 3d Mario game where Mario returns to the Glitz Pit and beats up Macho Man again. Rather than having to be so rigid about no no you can't create new species or different iterations on them. That is incredibly stupid and frustrating to not just us but to the ones who want more creative freedom.
19:25 What's your problem with this? I don't know why you making a scandal/rant on the Rabbids dressed as Mario characters. Do you somehow failed to realize that the Rabbids are like blank canvas of characters? They put rabbids with the clothes of Mario characters because it fucking made sense, what would you do if you have a entire franchise of generic white rabbits and fused with Mario? This game was a massive experiment that payed off greatly and in the sequel, they had more new fresh ideas, that couldnt be done without the first game existence, they not only created new characters like Edge, the Spark Hunters and the planet Wardens, but also gave voices for each of the Mario Rabbids. I don't what you were expecting? A character or enemy outside of the Main Mario series or something that has nothing to do with Rabbids in a Rabbids game? Don't make me laugh. You can't expect a third party developer get the rights to use Wanda from Mario & Wario on the SNES in their game. Ubisoft have creative freedom to work with the Mario series, but they obviously will not ask for deep cuts of characters. Also the games are beautiful, visually they have way more depth and interesting imagery than New Super Mario Bros.
You know what would make sense for party members in an RPG? Original characters, like Mallow and Geno. Or Edge in the sequel. You know what would have made more sense for the original? Rayman, Globox, Barbara and Teensy from the Rayman series which Rabbids were spun off from. They're already perfect analogues to the Mario party members and this decision is so obvious it fucking writes itself. Nobody has ever made an RPG where half the playable cast are a bunch of dumbass "blank canvases" cosplaying as the other half of the playable cast - it's hare-brained and ridiculous. The fact that the bar has gotten so low that people like you don't even see a problem with it is ridiculous. But by all means, come back and tell me when the next Final Fantasy is a crossover with Rabbids, and your party consists of Cloud, Tifa, Barrett, and 3 Rabbids cosplaying as them.
@@ThrillingDuck Alright so, you are basically saying fuck the rabbids, Rayman would be a better crossover, and to be honest you are right, Rayman has a way more deep classic set of characters than the rabbids, however you just can't disrespect the amount of work that Ubisoft put into these games just because some of the characters are rabbids with the clothes of the Mario cast. Kingdom Battle introduced really great enemies and bosses designs, that they even reused them for the newest Rabbids party game. The game was creative, it broke conventions, it saved/evolve the Rabbids series and the game was a passion project, Sparks of Hope is the better game yes, it have lore for many of their original characters and its way more developed, but Kingdom Battle as simple as it is did a better job than the Mario rpgs in the 2011-2020 decade. Now, you just talked about how a crossover of Rabbids and Final Fantasy would be bland right? But what about a crossover with Mario? Do you know about Mario Hoops 3-on-3 and Sports Mix? Those games don't do nothing noteworthy at all, its a sports crossover and there are no interactions between the characters whatsoever and before you say "its a simple sports game, why you are expecting a story, dialogue, interactions and stuff" bullshit, a lot of sports games have stories indies like Golf Story, Dodgeball Academia, Camelot Sports games and even the freaking Mario & Sonic at the Olympic series, they could had done a epic story bringing back Mallow and Geno in all of that but they opted for the simple route. A Mario crossover with Final Fantasy sounds way more interesting than the Rabbids, but in the end the Final Fantasy one was braindead and the one with Rabbids was amazing. So don't assume a crossover of Final Fantasy and the rabbids would be bad, anything can happen, maybe it could be a great game, people laughed at Sakurai for thinking a crossover game like Smash Bros would be remotely good and looking where he is now. I think I said everything I wanted to write and Im not gonna change stuff, you can waste your time replying to me or not, I don't care, the Mario & Rabbids games mean a lot to me as does 3 original Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi and I just can't let it slide that you would criticize so much this game just because of the design of the main characters and such, thats it, I'm gonna stop now.
@@ivanzoneBR24 As with most people who get this bent out of shape on my videos, you’re so distracted by Miyamoto’s cock in your mouth that you failed to notice I literally complimented the Rabbids games. I didn’t say they were dogshit, I said they were “excellent RPGs mechanically speaking.” They’re just dogshit in the story and character department because for all the love that the dev team put into them, story and characters clearly weren’t a fucking priority - thanks again to Miyamoto being massively indifferent to those elements and it not occurring to him to maybe suggest they actually focus on that stuff, when he was so quick to tell Tanabe to strip it away. Also who laughed at Sakurai for the idea of Smash? Literally no one thought that an all stars crossover fighter was a bad idea. Your rant about Mario Hoops was pointless. I know about it. It’s a sports game. My hypothetical crossover was in reference to an RPG, but I guess I should’ve specified that. I genuinely thought it was obvious since the point of comparison was Kingdom Battle, but whatever.
@@ThrillingDuckI think Sparks of Hope is more than just slightly ahead of Sticker Star, Paper Jam, Color Splash, and Origami King when it comes to character creativity. You have Edge, the planet Wardens, some other distinct Rabbid NPCs, the Spark Hunters, and Cursa. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's as diverse in it's cast as what earlier Mario RPGs had, but I wouldn't say it's almost as low as the bar that Sticker Star set.
@@oliverhurt3418 You’re more generous than me haha, but that’s fine. The thing with Sparks is that the dialogue is so minimal that the characters barely even register to me. I like Edge but we know literally nothing about her aside from she’s a former Spark Hunter. We don’t even know why - why she did it or why she quit. As for the Wardens, I mean it’s great that they have dialogue and are “original characters” but they’re sooooooo uninteresting imo. I ended up skipping 99% of their dialogue because it was just unfunny, uninteresting “lore” dumps. Overall, the characters in Sparks felt more like ideas that hadn’t been fleshed out at all.
The funniest and saddest part about this entire thing is that people were using the Pikmin series as an example of Miyamoto liking stories only for Pikmin 4 to retcon the entire series for absolutely no reason
As a StarFox fan, him trying to use StarFox Zero as a point for miyamoto being for stories is like being in a boxing match, being punched repeatedly in the face and saying "look I'm winning". StarFox Zeros story could have easily been tweaked enough to be a sort of soft reboot with time traveling elements. Its a face palming moment.
Of all his arguments, that was genuinely the most baffling one, and your analogy was spot on. SFZ is truly just evidence against what he was trying to prove lol.
@@ThrillingDuckIt only gets worse. I've recently learned that the teloporters in Zero, one of the big "new" plot point isn't even new. Andross Teloporters existed in snes, 2, and 64 in the manuals. All Miyamoto did was swap focus from Bio weapons to teloporters. That's all he did.
I don't really blame Miyamoto much for the direction Paper Mario took following Sticker Star since even if he is constantly telling them not to put much thought into the story, he probably isn't telling them to make the gameplay itself suck too which (at least for me) has always been my main point of contention even though I miss the creativity from those first 3 games. I know this is a video about the story debate but I felt like I ought to mention this since I find it way more likely Intelligent Systems doesn't know what they're doing over the Miyamoto narrative at this point.
I actually touched on the gameplay side of that as well towards the end, and my argument is the same as with the narrative - dude is still playing builds of these games and approving. He was perfectly quick to offer "suggestions" like "hey, why does this RPG need story?" and yet has had NOTHING to say for 3 games in a row when presented with a fundamentally broken gameplay loop in which you're punished for engaging in the combat. Miyamoto is complicit and I blame him just as much as IS.
@@ThrillingDuck wait since Miyamoto cares so much about games, shouldn't he have even more to say about that then the game having an interesting story or characters having names or whatever the hell
@@ThrillingDuck Yeah, I guess that's a fair point. I was gonna make the case that Miyamoto possibly saw it as good enough and figuring most people would like Origami King, for example, since it was different enough from the last few games, but that just all comes back to the argument of why they changed how the games worked to begin with when both critical and fan responses for those games was so good. Also yeah, him saying literally anything about the gameplay probably would get them thinking more about it if he chose to since no other franchise under Nintendo's belt has changed as much as PM has outside of maybe Zelda.
@@megasoniczxx Myamotto is a huge part to blame for this no matter where where you look at it. He's the one who told in the first place that Sticker Star does not need a story to be good, along with requesting restrictions on characters. How is he not to blame for this?
@@megasoniczxx The problem is that Paper Mario is important back then because their wasn't much RPGs on the Gamecube. Ever the 3ds rpgs are everywhere, so Miyamoto wanted to make Paper Mario as gimmicky as possible in order to standout. Even if it just appeals to kids, and it worked.
6:03 bro.. that person you talking about is fanboy.. no sorry fanKID at best.. Miyamoto said they have to stop writing but he didn't listen an wrote the story book Miyamoto didn't know story book is in the game.. But when they were testing the game Everyone liked it and Miyamoto was like well, fvck that let the book stay..
22:38 Tbf the problem with these games isn’t that they were green lit in the first place, except for maybe zip lash since it’s completely different from all the rest of the games in the series and should’ve been a spinoff. Federation force is only hated because of when it was announced And from what I understand so is hey pikmin. These games are spin offs so them being different from the mainline Games is ok. I’ve played all of these games and I’ve liked all of them. Zip lash is a decent platformer (I haven’t played any of the other Chibi Robo games which is why I really don’t have an opinion on it) and I think hey pikmin is really cute and honestly better than Pikmin 2. Federation force is an incredible game. Playing that game in multiplayer is some of the most fun I’ve had in the game in a while. Plus telling a side story within the Metroid universe with different characters is actually pretty cool to me. The problem with these games isn’t that they were green lit, it’s more so everything else that was happening while the game was announced or released
The context of their original release is important. Spin-offs can be received very well so long as the mainline variants aren’t in the midst of a nearly (or greater) decade long hiatus. Regarding Zip Lash and Hey Pikmin, I’ve actually played both and think they’re both genuinely mediocre. Federation Force I haven’t been able to play (no friends with hacked 3DS and DEFINITELY no friends willing to pay for it lol) but even if it’s a good game in a vacuum, it was NOT the right game to release at that time. Triforce Heroes was a similar product released in the same window, but everyone just sort of enjoyed it for what it was and didn’t make a big stink because Zelda in general wasn’t dead in the water.
@@ThrillingDuck the context of the releases is important. I understand why they where hated on like they where but that context doesn’t make them bad games
@@theghostwiththemost789 Totally fair! I happen to think they’re bad games anyway, but that’s just my opinion haha. Glad you could get enjoyment out of them - I enjoy plenty of “bad” games :)
@@ThrillingDuck I get that. I enjoy playing animal crossing Amiibo festival with friends. It’s hilarious. If you ever get a chance to play Federation Force, I would recommend it. It works just fine in single player and you can still have a good time with it but it’s a lot more fun with multiple people. I also recommend the video “Metroid prime Federation Force deserves to be remembered” by Pipi DaFeces. It’s a great video
@@ThrillingDuckI get that. I like to play animal crossing Amiibo festival. It’s hilarious with friends. If you ever do get a chance to play a Federation Force, I would recommend it. I also highly recommend the video “Metroid Prime Federation Force deserves to be remembered”. It’s fantastic
Like the only zelda games i really played was 4 swords and the open world switch games like totk/botw. So what im asking is if Zelda is really that good of evidence to support that miyamoto is "pro story"? Like nevermind the timeline debacle, I've heard that 90% of zelda storytelling is just instructions, like "Sonic has to collect the 7 chaos emeralds" storytelling.
@@yungmuney5903 Lol I’d say that take is a little bit reductive, but I can see where someone would interpret it that way. Zelda stories definitely aren’t as robust and fleshed out as a typical western fantasy RPG, but most of them at least feature vignettes/scenarios unique to each location you visit as part of your mcguffin hunt. That said I would not be surprised if Miyamoto had suggested getting rid of even those at some point.
amen, the older Mario RPGs were so creative, BIS being my personal favorite for like 500 reasons. It looks like Paper Jam has the best gameplay but I can barely trudge through the generic as fuck NSMB shit in those actual games, much less an RPG.
Though you make good points that Miyamoto is still to blame for how the last three Paper Marios turned out, I'm sure we can still agree that he's not the only one at fault. I still blame Tanabe too for needlessly treating Miyamoto's irresponsible suggestions from back then like it's the Gospel. I really hope the TTYD remake outsells Origami King to convince Intelligent Systems to unshackle themselves. I don't want to see a fourth (fifth if you count Paper Jam) new Paper Mario that is so creatively bankrupt with it's cast. Though I will say that your opinions about other Mario Spin-offs' creative direction is a bit too negative. I can understand that games like Kingdom Battle, Sparks of Hope, and Luigi's Mansion 3 don't have any modified enemy characters from the Super Mario World, they still have unique original characters that are in said world; or universe in Sparks of Hope. Speaking of Sparks of Hope, the Sparks could count as a modification to the Lumas; considering how they're fused with Rabbids. That could be seen as a small win right there. Also, about the Mario Movie, while I hear it's not really that great, I think I recall reading that it was mainly intended to not suck like many other movie adaptations of video games have in the past, which it succeeded at. I'm just trying to build some optimism here.
Okay, for the record, I already know that I could’ve made the question more brief and concise but I just couldn’t stop thinking about it and wanted convey as much information as possible. So, let me rephrase that question: “Why did these creative limitations only apply to the later Paper Mario games but NOT the other Mario franchises?”
Honestly I feel like they kind of did? It’s easy to forget now that Odyssey and Wonder exist, but this was also the New Super Mario Bros Era, and like I said in the video I wasn’t exactly impressed with the writing and characters in Rabbids to put it generously.
@@ThrillingDuckOkay fair point but I can’t help but feel like there’s kind of a hole in your theory. See the thing is that the New Super Mario Bros series has been around since 2,006 and debatably continued until 2018 (going off the assumption that New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe is considered a new entry in the series). The whole “Myiamoto effect” was conceived to have been a thing ever since Paper Mario Sticker Star which came out in 2012. This made me think that the social media has gaslit people into thinking this has been a thing before we actually knew about it because lots of people also apply the “Myiamoto effect” to other games like Super Mario Galaxy 2. And while this MIGHT’VE been true, you can’t convince me that these creative limitations were just as severe as they were when Sticker Star was in production. Nor can you convince me that the other Mario franchise suffered the same fate. Yes, the controversy started with Sticker Star in 2012 and continued until 2020 with Origami King, but look games like Mario Odyssey or Luigi’s Mansion 3. Both those games had plenty of original characters, gimmicks and stories, and they both came out after Sticker Star and before Origami King. The only other series that I could even recall having the same problem would be the Mario sports games. Granted, I could honestly go on and list plenty of other examples but I just don’t really feel like repeating myself so I’ll rest my case.
@@Master-Fawful958 I gotcha. My only counterpoint is that tbh I still consider Origami King a victim of this lol. OK was a few steps in the right direction, but to me it still felt hamstrung by artificial restrictions. Arlo put my feelings about it best: “a monument to compromise.” It may have looked like a big leap forward compared to Sticker Star and Color Splash, but frankly it still fell massively short of even the original Paper Mario in my book. I didn’t like it very much in case anyone couldn’t tell haha.
Okay, but that’s not quite what I meant. I mean, ignoring the fact that the restrictions were technically more “loose” than artificial, my point was that I only saw these restrictions only apply to modern Paper Mario and have seemingly come to an end AFTER Origami King, not during the game’s time of release. And even beyond that, I’m being completely honest with you when I that LEGITIMATELY can’t stand Origami King. It’s actually the Mario RPG that don’t like because I honestly thought Color Splash was a step in right direction, and I even legitimately enjoyed Sticker Star in a “so bad that it’s good” kinda way. And I said once and I’ll say it again: “The closer Origami King came to giving the fans what they wanted, the more it made me furious because it felt like the game was taunting them with it rather than actually providing it.” And the game did that a LOT ! The game teased the fans with partners, badges, equipment. The battle system was over-complicated mess, game constantly showers you coins, and King Olly’s backstory retroactively ruined his character for me. This is why I’d argue Mario and Luigi Paper Jam is a MUCH better game. Alphadream proved that they could make a fun and entertaining game within the Nintendo’s restrictions (assuming that the restrictions did actually apply to them). Meanwhile, Origami King tried way too hard to appeal the fans at the cost of some fundamentally bad game design choices, the developers basically tried to have their cake and eat it too. And even if Paper Jam didn’t win over the fans, I’d argue the 3DS remakes ended on quite the high note with side campaigns because they had great storytelling and at least SOME original characters found within.
Hello again! Whilst Im here, Im still not convinced yet for Miyamoto disliking stories; it is such a baffling thing to say, and is as ridicolous as saying pro story. No, I dont think Miyamoto hate stories nor actively removing them, but at the same time, he does have a vision and preferences as it shows within his works as well. Zelda being a major title, Pikmin, the older Mario RPGs (though, I quite heavily disagree about the newer Mario and Luigi being bland as heck. They do have charm, and I love it.) Paper Mario series before Sticker Star and such. Obviously, we do not know the higher archy of Nintendo. I find the granted information that is contrasted to the pubkic is very little, but what I can say is that Intellegence System does indeed have full creative control, or almost. Miyamoto doesnt necessarily need to be *in* this IP, as this is moreso a Nintendo/Law thing. Whilst you are right that Miyamoto doesnt care, we also need to put in mind that this is a period where everything was safe interms of IPs. Howbeit, Miyamoto might have a hand in this, the newer Mario titles are now changing for the better, and the obvious is Odyssey, Luigis Mansion 3 (love this masterpiece) and the Mario and Rabbids series. Speaking of which, Mario and Rabbids Sparks of Hope does actually have a good story and characterization for certain characters, which surprised me. Yes, it is not the deepest but that is something that Miyamoto sort of had in hand. For Mario and Rabbids Kingdom Battle, however, I wont speak of the story but it is simple and makes sense, but what I want to actually speak of is how this game is made; I highly recommend reading the interviews for this game as it shows that Miyamoto had a quite some heavy hand in this title. He allowed it because it actually was fun, weird and creative. Lastly, the past doesnt last for longz and we are entering a new era for Miyamoto and Nintendo; with the Mario film and how brilliant and creative it was (at least for a hardcore Mario fan like me, that is) and the absolute genius of Odyssey as well as the upcoming New 2D Mario gamez it seems that Miyamoto is opening up more and more. My point is this: It depends on Miyamoto on what he wants in his game, and it seems that Narrative is the least one, but my problem with the whole stupid "Anti" and "Pro" Narrative stuff is that it is waaaay out of proportion for Miyamoto. And i would argue that this suggestion of "without" a story wouldnt do much, because Miyamoto himself called the game boring at its second (and last) play testing for the game. I dont think he entirely has the most hands when it comes to releasing a project, nor he no longer have any hands on Intellegence system. He checka from here and there but he doesnt say anything otherwise. He might no longer care for Paper Mario and he might be a partial blame, but the entire blame? I would argue it is more on Tanabe when he finally had his creative control. Miyamoto does care for his projects, even if it is indirect like DK Country Troopical Freeze as well as Mario and Rabbids, Galaxy 1 and 2, 3D World, Pikmin, Zelda, older Star Fox series and so on. One small note to mention is that Chris Pratt casting wasnt all Miyamoto. Nintendo always picks the safest option, which honestly, Im fine with. Chris Pratt worked very well, even if it was a corporate move. Edit: My entire point here is that Miysmoto doesnt hate narrative (which is a stupid thing to think about) nor does he actively want stories. Moreso, a preference or a slight care for the series, evident with Zelda and Pikmin.
You're doing the thing. You're using a single line from an interview saying a vague promise "We have almost complete creative control", even when almost right after, and as this video itself states they literally clarify saying they don't have creative control over certain elements, mainly characters. Now story and gameplay, sure they likely do have mostly free reigns on those but no one is arguing against that. A story requires characters, if you can't make the characters you want you can't make the story you want that's a given. Not to mention Tanaba produced Luigi's Mansion 3 and Tropical Freeze, he was partly responsible for questionable decisions in both series but that didn't get in the way of making good games. And yeah obviously things aren't black and white, there's no such thing as being 100% anti story, but Paper Mario's original name was literally Mario Story, it's entries are known for having story and unique engaging characters. If Miyamoto can walk over to the studio making MARIO STORY, and tell them actually story isn't really that needed, how can anyone in good faith make an argument that he isn't 100% anti story, even if that is hyperbole. We're not just talking about Mario, we're talking about a RPG, imagine telling any other RPG that story isn't needed, or don't focus on story as much, how do you even rationalize that. Especially at a time where every facet of the Mario Universe was toning down on stories, 2D Mario games never had that much story, but they did still have story. They weren't just "Bowser stole the Princess, get her back", there were still other things at stake in Super Mario Bros 1, 3, World etc. And I still don't get why people keep pointing at Odyssey, it's neat all all but what is the implication? That 3D Mario was on a decline before it. Galaxy 2 and 3D Land both released only a year apart, and 3D World was only 2 years after Land, relative to the output we're used on Switch you could just say 3D Land and World don't exist and the only gap was Galaxy 2 to Odyssey. It's been as long from Galaxy 2 to Odyssey as it's been Odyssey to right now.
@@Whispernyan Feels like I offended you, so my bad; anyhow, Im getting bored of this topic and I wont continue on it. I can but Im just not interested because it is stupid. It is a stupid of a topic as it can get, and you know why? You tell me that World, smb3 and the older 2d mario games had a *sort* of stake.... NO. WHAT? Maybe for World as you save every Yoshi egg but what? It is the same story as Bowser kidnaps Peach, and you cannot argue that whatsoever, and the same thing applies with every mainline Mario game with different spins on it. The soup games are the same thing however, as they dont put any spin. But one thing that noticed my eyes is Luigi's Mansion and Tropical Freeze saying that those series had questionable decesions before them... WHAT... JUST WHAT??? I kinda can understand with LM since it had a more linear experience wuth Dark Moon, but I wouldnt call it questionable since a lot of people liked the structure of the game. I can understand with the Ghosts variety though. For DK??? HECK NO... I cant even remember a single decesion that was laughably questionable in the Country series, and not to mention improving on one another... no. Also, what do you mean by a decline for 3D Mario after Galaxy 2? ...what IS exactly your point? 3D World and 3D Land were fantastic on their own right and saying they were a decline for the series is laughably wrong, especiallg when it is ported on the switch with new content in it. 3D Land on the other hand was its small little thing. It wasnt something that made much but it was a good game nonetheless. A classic Mario as it can gets, and I love it. Not to mention having the best endgame in any Mario series. My implication in Odyssey is how it strayed away from all the Mario stuff, to the point where I felt that the art direction didnt feel like Mario. It felt off, but that isnt my point. My point is how Odyssey shoke things up for the artstyle and how weird it was. And that is a good thing. Now, Wonder is on the horizon and there is plenty of new things in it! I cannot wait to play it! Anyhow, lastly, the whole Miyamot doesnt like stories is still bullshit in my eyes. Yes, he shouldve not done this suggestion for Paper Mario but we still dont know exactky why he said that; it might be because Tanabe truly fumbled on the gameplay department because Miyamoto called the game boring twice. And the restrictions upon the team might be because of the IP department, and not Miyamoto. IP team and Miyamoto arent the same thing interms of legal matters, and you might have a point here. Gald you pointed that out for me that they dont *fully* have a complete control... HOWEVER, they do still mostly have all the control, and infact, it is either the IP team or Tanabe himself that restricts the team, but as you pointed out with LM3, it is most likely the IP team. Sorry if it came off as a bit offensive this time around, I just dont believe the whole "Miyamoto HATES STORIES!!!" or "Miyamoto LOVES STORIES!!!" No, in all fairness, this whole is just onga bonga. It is straight and simple, Miyamoto just doesnt care for Paper Mario and left it to the Ip team and Tanabe to figure it out.
@@AndrewThePoet In Super Mario Bros 1, it wasn't just Bowser kidnapped Peach, he also turned all the Toads into various objects and Peach is the only one who can undo the magic. In Super Mario Bros 3, Bowser didn't just kidnap Peach, he also transformed all the rulers of the various kingdoms and Mario helps them revert back during the game. In World like you said Mario rescues the trapped Yoshis. Both in 3 and World the extra stakes are things related to finishing a world, minor real victories throughout the game. That's just gone in the New series. Even within the series it gets worse, in DS and I believe 2 you're at least chasing the person who has Peach throughout the game, whereas in Wii and Wii U Peach is at the endpoint and you physically accomplish nothing during the entire game. And no questionable decisions in Luigi Mansion 2 and Donkey Kong Country? Tanabe was on board with the removal of Portrait Ghosts in 2, something he stepped back on for 3 when he became producer, and he's also the direct reason the Kremlings stopped being the villains of the franchise which is definitely something people complained about since especially in Tropical Freeze's case, they were not replaced with something more interesting. And yes decline in 3D Mario in terms of originality. I never would have guessed you were referring to visual presentation given that while Odyssey's theme does involve changing art styles, none of it is really anti-mario. Except for when it's realism, but that's a bit antithetical. Every new enemy presented in the game is very easy to visualize existing in a future installment with a uniform art style. Especially given that given Mario's long history practically each of it's 3D installments just on a basis of the technology they exist on all have very varied art styles. There's a reason practically nothing originating from the 3D titles makes it's way into the greater Mario universe, outside of 3D Land and World, none of it is cohesive they're all too visually distinctive from everything else.
@@Whispernyan I dont think the first point matters much, nor I think it is very necessary; in all fairness, you do have indeed a point interms of the extra stakes (within the 2D Mario that is) but I still dont think it is a big deal nor something of importance. In all honesty, I dont care about these so called Kingdoms as I save, because the same sort of feeling I get whenever I finish a whole level in a new Soup game. It is nice, indeed, a nice little addition but I dont it matters as it is to small, not interesting and such. And for the DK part, I honestly see that as a good thing. We dont need the Kremlings as their job is done. We dont need them to return again and again and again. I do agree that they shouldve replaced them with something more interesting but again, it is such a small little thing that I dont think it matters, because the visual storytelling makes up for it as well as the masterclass of level design and such. And again, as I said before, I may understand with LM but again, I dont it mattered. (As you mentioned in the first comment of yours) Lastly, I dont care about the originality of a 3D Mario game if it is experimental and delievered on such a fantastical scale Could 3D Land/World used more of an original artstyle? Sure thing but it is far from bad and infact, I prefer it over the Odyssey realistic artstyle. You do not need to make a game more distinct, because 3D World already looks distinct in the 3D mainline Mario games. And the more time goes on, the more I see people appreciate 3D World more and more. No, 3D Mario didnt decline, but rather people wanted something else from 3D World that was unfounded. My point is this: 3D World and Land despite their safe approach for their artstyle, it is a serene and fabulous one, which they have done a very well done job at it. But at the same time, there is a problem. There is nothing next to 3D World or Land that makes its visual more unique, which Im referreing to the 2D Mario games. If there was something unique next to it, people would appreciate it more but within this context of its era, things wasnt looking good in that department. Anyhow, 3D World and Land does have their own spin on the visuals, and they ARE cohesive enough to stand on their own? Is it safe? I cannot deny that but it masters the style for its own sake. Glad we are having a civil disscussion!
@@AndrewThePoet The problem is that Paper Mario is important back then because their wasn't much RPGs on the Gamecube. Ever the 3ds rpgs are everywhere, so Miyamoto wanted to make Paper Mario as gimmicky as possible in order to standout. Even if it just appeals to kids, and it worked.
I don't understand peoples obsessions with stories in games. Yes you can have them and they can be good, but if a game doesn't have one that doesn't make it any less of an art piece.
While I’m personally of the opinion that an engaging story can elevate any game, regardless of genre, this particular video isn’t about whether or not a game needs a story to be good (which I agree, it doesn’t necessarily). This video is about series setting expectations of a certain narrative caliber through precedent. Modern Paper Mario isn’t bad because it lacks an involved narrative and developed characters, but fans of the series had come to expect those things, as they were elements which elevated the games to the point that they were fan favorites. They were part of the series identity, and something that set it apart from mainline. I would argue that modern Paper Mario IS bad, but that’s because their mechanical design and gameloop are bad also. The video is also primarily about the “does Miyamoto dislike story?” debate, and whether or not you value story in games is outside the scope of what it’s exploring.
I mean, I don't think Shadow the Hedgehog would surpass even Eggman and Tails in popularity if it wasn't for the story. They can seriously impact and skyrocket the brand with the emotional connection stories can make, but can also crumble when done poorly. Double edged sword really.
So, before you started to question me again for the statements I made, I gotta say I'm kinda disappointed of how this all turned out, I watched a couple of years ago your video of the decline of Mario rpgs and I agree with a lot of things, like Bowser's Inside Story having a bland world and I played BIS and SPM the most like you, so its a bit painful to strongly disagree with you now in this video, but I will be ok. I hope you at least understand some of my points and not just say I'm stupid for thinking the way I do because if not, the problem is with you, I don't mean any harm to you, I hope you do the same for me okay? Respect is something everyone need to learn. Goodbye.
You’re not stupid for having a divergent opinion - I have a tendency to get aggravated when people overtly miss my points and then make broad sweeping statements about how ill thought-out my arguments are, while presenting evidence that I already accounted for in my argument. Consider it a pet peeve. Having said that, I’m not a bully. I receive respectful disagreements all the time, which I always reply to with mutual respect. So of course I respect you wanting to rescind the overt negativity. I’m glad we see eye to eye on something, and you’re perfectly entitled to blame Tanabe if you feel that strongly about it despite my arguments. Thank you for taking the time to listen regardless.
I mean this wouldn't have happened without people misconceiving that Miyamoto is anti-story, but at the same time this video also has its own brand of misconceptions of Miyamoto valuing story in his games. I on the other hand, just think Miyamoto is on this gray area where if game needs story, then story he shall focus on. I mean for christ's sake this guy made Metroid and Zelda and you're telling me he's 100% anti story?
It is insane to promote Metroid for story. Until Fusion all the "story" you got was a paragraph at the start and or end of the game. With that being the first game to try and characterize Samus. Otherwise it was more focused on sexualizing Samus by having her strip if you beat the game fast enough. Then Retro Studios gives a tiny bit of story but really they are giving "lore" and a direction. They don't do anything with Samus's character really. Other M is one of the most sexist disgusting PoS that has been put out by AAA studios. But that has been the direction Nintendo as a whole have been taking her character but just made it so she shuts up. Changing her from a strategist walking around in a tank. To a busty action star that relies on her athletics (every game she has appeared in since Brawl her bust and ass sizes have increased and her suit has become more form-fitting and she has become more frail and reactionary, while they also have not gotten rid of her stripping to "reward" players). I can rant for a good while about the Zelda series also being an embarrasment story-wise but Metroid and Nintendo's handlng of Samus is just disgraceful and repugnant at best.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 I feel like you lost the plot, it's weird to bring up Brawl specifically when every smash game since has dramatically reduced her assets, and also what does any of that mean. Post brawl the only Metroid games were Other M, which is Other M, a remake of Metroid 2 which doesn't even feature the casual wear outside of an ending that requires an Amiibo to even play, and Dread which doesn't even have Zero Suit at all. Much less the comment about the suits becoming more form fitting. Her default suit is still considered to be her Prime Varia suit, which is super un form fitting but all that extra nonsense is literally extra nonsense and her base suit is much more form fitting even there, which is what most games follow. You start off small and become more visually larger over it's course.
Myiamoto did not create Metroid. Gunpie Yokoi(who created Game & Watch, GameBoy ect) created Metroid. "If game needs story, then story he shall focus on" Then why did he ruin Paper Mario by saying it doesn't need a story during development of Sticker Star when the story is the point of Paper Mario aka In Japan, it's Mario Story. If he intended story on games that's necessary according to him, he didn't do a good job even at that. He even allowed Paper Mario to be ruined 3 times in a row with Sticker Star - Origami King. Also stories and lore helps games to have more personality and more character to the games. If Myiamoto purposely doesn't purposely put care to that on games "that's not needed", that's all on him and Nintendo as a whole for the 1st Party games.
@@Whispernyan The problem with Other M is Sakamoto's insistence on the Metroid timeline. The game takes place after Super but before Fusion, why you're just making things more difficult for your self when telling a story??? Especially if the story is a super mellow dramatic soup opera. Also Miyamoto was only involved in the Prime games, he didn't work on the other Metroid games.
Since Pikmin 4 decided to throw the entire timeline out the window for no reason, the only Nintendo series I like that has a timeline that isn’t a complete mess is Metroid💀. Imo Metroid is probably the Nintendo franchise with the best storytelling (Other M notwithstanding)
Prime even slots in very cleanly between Metroid 1 and 2! And I don’t even dislike Other M as much as most people. It had some good ideas, it just botched the execution. Honestly I still think it’s a fun game though.
@@ThrillingDuck i’ve been going through and playing all of the Metroid games for the first time. I just beat Federation force and that game absolutely does not deserve It’s poor reputation. It’s a great game that just came out at the worst possible time. I haven’t played other M yet so idk if I would like the game play or not but I do know that it’s story is not the best. I do think all of the prime games all taking place between Metroid 1 and 2 could become a problem in the future. I think the problem is how many games take place between Metroid 1 and 2. There are now 5 games that take place there and soon to be 6 assuming prime 4 will be set after Federation Force, which it most likely will. It’s starting to feel very bloated. The events of prime are never mentioned in the main series (besides the ending of Samus returns) but this does make sense because most of the mainline games came out before prime but I feel like this does have some effects on the story
@@theghostwiththemost789 The problem with Other M is that the game takes place after Super but before Fusion. That alone is a bad idea, because all that does put you in box in terms of story telling. Fun Fact: While Castlevania games do have a timeline, Koji Igarashi demands that certain games be non canon so that the timeline makes sense. Other M would have been better if the story was standalone and non canon.
To be completely honest, the Myiamoto controversy has always been (in my opinion) too contradictory for me to believe either side. I mean, none of the “defenders” have ever been bothered to bring up literally any of the games that not only HAVE strong or decent narratives but have also technically credited him for his involvement regarding the development, (like the first three Mario and Luigi RPGs, just as an example). It, at the very least, would’ve been a better defense than straight up ignoring the infamous Paper Mario Sticker Star interview. And, this whole controversy has really only made me question when, how, and why so many people choose exaggerate the truth, whether you choose to accuse him (let-alone ANYONE at Nintendo HQ) or play devil’s advocate. If anything, I’ve always thought that Myiamoto was always OKAY with story in the games but was always trying to prioritize the gameplay. But this entire controversy has always left me with one question: “If Nintendo was so damn insistent on these creative limitations that’ve been in place ever since Sticker Star’s release and continued with the release Color Splash and Origami King, then why was Mario and Luigi Dream Team allowed to have a cast of original characters and locations while the Bowser’s Inside Story remake came with three original antagonists considering that was released one year before Origami King?”
@@ThrillingDuckThat’s fair enough. But even Dream Team still had decent amount of original content, if anything, I’d say that the only thing that proved to be more bland than the first three games was the plot because it was so much simpler than the original trilogy. By contrast, the 3DS remakes had great side-stories (which you’ve already dedicated an entire review/analysis dissecting both of the aforementioned side-stories) but didn’t really have much else in terms of original characters or locations, and that’s basically because they were just (albeit great) remakes.
@@Master-Fawful958 The problem is that Sticker Star was a success, so Miyamoto believes he's right. Starfox Zero may have unperformed, but the 3ds remake barely broke even, so it doesn't even matter. As for the Mario and Luigi series. The only that Miyamoto was even remotely involved with was the first one, thats it.
@@orangeslash1667 With all due respect I three counterpoints. First off, I don’t really see how Star Fox Zero is even remotely relevant to my comment aside being on 3DS. And secondly, I said that Myiamoto was CREDITED with the RPGs and not directly involved with their development. Hell, ThrillingDuck even directly addressed this in one of his videos. “Thank you for your keeping your fuckin’ nose out of AlphaDream’s work Myiamoto”. I mean George Lucas didn’t get involved in the development of the Star Wars sequel trilogy but he was still credited for creating the franchise. Granted Myiamoto didn’t have to sell his rights to anyone like Lucas did but my point still stands. And third: (this kinda refers back to the mention of Star Fox Zero) I never thought financial success was a reasonably key factor seeing fans pleaded with Nintendo for a return to form and panned the modern Paper Mario games excluding the upcoming remake which I’m definitely hyped for. (Then again hardcore fans are fairly different from the main public, but the sales still never crossed my mind.)
@@Master-Fawful958 Thats the problem with big companies, sales are a big factor to the fate of franchises. For example Fire Emblem Awakening was originally the last game period due to poor sales in the past. Thankfully the series is saved solely because of the success of Awakening.
And do you think we Zelda fans never had anything to complain about? How many times did decisions get a backlash?? Miyamoto himself heard the unfortunate experiences from some of those decisions, regreted them, and changed course, every time. And if those decisions for Paper Mario aren't working, then either you are as unified as Zelda fans, or don't expect any changes. Since you're actually a very vocal niche, Nintendo and Miyamoto have zero reason to change any course, and he's not the one to blame, and especially not disrespect. And I'll say one last thing: Disrespecting him is EXACTLY why I don't join in and add my voice to the cause. I actually agree with the gripe. It's this stinking group of fans I enormously detest. You all handle this POORLY. I hope Paper Mario stays how it is just to spite you and your sect. Congrats on rallying us to your cause.
@@clonetrooper2003 The reason is that Miyamoto was taught by the late Gunpei Yokoi, who was known for innovation and toys. Due to his tragic death, Miyamoto feels that he must become the next Yokoi by any means necessary. So Miyamoto focus in games is innovation rather than story.
@@orangeslash1667 if what you are saying is true, then plz provide a source. If it is, this is what i have to say I understand that the people of japan are incredibly reserved. They are not prone to talking about their feelings as a result. I understand Miyamoto probably has not gotten over his friend’s death. For this, I don’t think I can blame him for. However, it is what he is doing to cope that makes me ANGRY. I get he wants to be like his friend to honor him. However, he can’t apply his friend’s strategy to the gaming genre, ehich is a medium for storytelling unlike toys. Not only is he directly robbing Nintendo of its storytelling potential, but is actively doing it to the point where he is toxically micromanaging his own employees. Remember the subtle story of super Mario galaxy 1? The only reason it was that way was because koizumi was FORCED to hide it in the game from miyamoto. Eventually the dude found out and made sure smg2 was as bland and storyless as possible. And now miyamoto is doing the same thing to movies. By suppressing his human emotions, he is destroying the humanity of art itself. I do NOT hate him. I think he gets all the criticism from nintendo fans he deserves. I will always respect him as the creator of mario and zelda. But, eh is clearly a bad influence on this franchise in terms of its artistic potential. It has become clear to me that eiji aonuma (or as i like to call him, the hack with the glasses) has embraced his way of putting storytelling last since after botw. TOTK’s story was a fundamental disaster that nearly destroyed BOTW’s story as whole with its plotholes, terrible new characters, unacceptable retcons of both ZELINK & the zonai’s connection to the red haired tribe, and ending that ruined the game’s themes. Plz miyamoto, do better
A couple of quick clarifications:
1) To be absolutely clear, SuperMarioT’s CENTRAL thesis is that Miyamoto does not stalk the halls of Nintendo HQ, actively undermining any semblance of a narrative that begins to crop up while other staffers develop games, and I believe he proves this successfully. The real, objective misinformation about Miyamoto is that he goes out of his way to nip narrative elements in the bud, when this is in fact very much not the case. I just think SuperMarioT’s conflation of this with Miyamoto actually valuing narrative elements in games is a bridge too far, as there’s too much evidence to the contrary imo.
2) My turnaround time on this video was unusually fast due to my personal schedule, so there are a few more grammatical errors than usual, which I apologize for - I usually have more time for proofreading. Additionally, at 2:41 I say “signed the death knell” but the term is “signaled the death knell” lol.
3) Technically this is a shill, not a clarification, but for anyone interested, I made a pretty extensive narrative pseudo-retrospective on Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi a few years back, which you can find here: ruclips.net/video/O89Bd1dIlCY/видео.html
When you dissed rise of soywalker, you earned a sub. Great video man.
I think people like to focus on Miyamoto because he's a big name, but the real important point is just that, regardless of who did it, these changes happened, they've been consistently happening for a long time now, and we dislike them. Even if you could definitively prove that Miyamoto had nothing to do with any of it, it wouldn't change the final products we ended up with.
My point exactly!
@@ThrillingDuck Nintendo in house is too busy with other projects, so they would have to hire a third party company to make another F-zero. However since Nintendo has Mario Kart, they feel it's not worth the effort.
@@orangeslash1667 It’s a shame, their 3rd party outsources make some of their most creative titles these days lol.
@@ThrillingDuck Miyamoto said that Starwars and Thunderbirds were big inspirations for Starfox's World. However because because Starfox games are traditionally short, it makes it difficult to make an in depth story. If fact Miyamoto wanted Starfox Zero to be even more like Thunderbirds, but by doing that it slowed the pace to a crawl ruclips.net/video/pZTPPU09gYE/видео.html.
The reason Zero has switchable vehicles, is because Miyamoto wanted to emulate the canceled Star Fox 2.
@@orangeslash1667 See the thing is though, even with short campaigns, Star Fox can still have more involved narratives. We know because it’s been done before: Adventures, Assault, and Command. Say what you want about their individual narrative quality, but they were clearly trying, and for my money they had much more going on than the standard typical Nintendo bookend story.
12:23 wouldn’t this just be because.. he doesn’t care?? yeah he can not want the devs to change anything, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t pro story, he said himself recently he’s fine with stories, just prioritizes gameplay when it’s needed to be (like with here in modern paper mario) I don’t think many people believe he is actively wanting a story
Which is totally understandable considering he makes games not literature.
@@hairyballs089 But games like paper mario tho??? Idk.... 🤷♂️
The most frustrating part about this "IP team" debacle is that if this team had always existed, Nintendo wouldn't have half the characters that are currently lining their rosters.
For example, Nintendo wouldn't have Princess Daisy, since the IP team wouldn't have allowed R&D to make a copy of the existing Princess Peach registered trademark icon ©®TM.
Same for Waluigi. Creating a whole new character just for a Tennis game? The IP Team would NEVER allow that!!!
Birdo? Shy Guys? Snifits? Bob-Ombs? Pokeys? Ninjis? Sorry, we can't have those! Those are all Doki Doki Panic characters! We can't just absorb those into the Mario canon!
Wario? Are you nuts!? A twisted parody of the company mascot!? That's only going to hurt the brand! Scratch the idea immediately!
Donkey Kong's redesign? Nooo, nononono! Rareware can't redesign Donkey Kong! He needs to look the way he always has! No tie! No battle toad eyes! Just a generic cartoon gorilla, like in the arcade days!
Diddy Kong? This ain't no Miyamoto character! Begone!
I mean, even Mario Kart has been making up Characters out of nowhere. Baby Daisy? Baby Rosalina? They'd never allow those under the rule of the IP protection team!
I don't understand why Nintendo is so stubborn with this stuff. Letting other developers make new characters has worked for them in the past, so why can't they do it now?
Paper Mario spin offs have been home to some of the most popular characters in the entire franchise, so why keep them so separate?
Is it an issue of copyright? Like, is Nintendo afraid they can't own the rights to characters like Vivian or Fawful, because a different studio made them?
I'm sure they can figure out an agreement. I mean it's not like a completely disconnected company like square enix has made them.
Surely they could make a contract that says all characters created for a Mario game belong to Nintendo, or something. That's still better than no new characters at all!
So much this.
I don't need my Mario RPG stories to be super complex, I just need the games to have a good amount of worldbuilding, a splash of continuity, unique set pieces, and a good, generous helping of original characters with unmistakable character designs. And if the main plot is basic, that doesn't mean the little subplots of the individual chapters can't be the interesting part.
Like, Superstar Saga's story wasn't super complex, but it had a new villain, a new Kingdom, tons of new characters and creatures and worldbuilding, and so much personality!
That made it fun and fresh and memorable.
A new Mario RPG installment doesn't need to have another Super Paper Mario-esque story to be enjoyable. It can just be memorable in its own way. As long as the developers have the freedom to actually make the game they wanna make.
I sincerely love the Mario movie, but I'm not blind to the fact that it did the absolute bare minimum in terms of story with creating a emotional arc for the bros. I enjoyed what they did with the plot and characters but I'm gonna about to say it even remotely holds a candle to the story telling quality of ANY of the Mario rpgs. I fucking laughed when I heard people were genuinely using it as a defence against Minamoto's anti-story nonsense.
As much as I enjoyed it as a nostalgic fan, the only joke I actually laughed out loud at wasn't even Mario related. It was when the bully dog gave them the tough guy nod of approval at the end. That was actually hilarious.
They need to pass the PM games to different creators that actually have passion
Couldn't agree more, especially with Alpha Dream having gone under.
The current creators have plenty of passion in them. Stop saying that like you know better than them
So tl;dr, _everyone_ is at fault. I can certainly buy that, since if there were _any_ voices speaking for quality products, you'd _think_ they'd have been vindicated enough after Sticker Star or Color Splash to be given more credence than Origami King suggests... especially when "damaging the brand" is what many people have been saying about these problematic products (you know, the thing that they theoretically are THE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT).
It's just... I don't know, they make these great games that no other AAA company does, only to water it down with all of these creatively bankrupt titles, it's maddening! If _anything_ can kill Nintendo, it's not Sony or Microsoft, or even emulation (especially not emulation of systems old enough to not count as piracy)... it's _themselves._ And while some of the slack will be taken up by indies in that scenario, I fear something important would be lost in the process.
Agreed. I am so passionate about Indies, but there's something to be said for the original IPs which inspired them. For better or worse, people like their brands! Spiritual successors can only go so far at the end of the day. I adore Shovel Knight, but I still miss Megaman. I love Bloodstained, but I still miss Castlevania. And Bug Fables may even be objectively better than Paper Mario 64 and arguably even Thousand Year Door, but gosh darn it, I miss (real) Paper Mario!
I never blamed Miyamoto solely for Nintendo creating products that harm arguments that video games are an artistic storytelling medium. He is just part of "the machine."
Because in that same "machine" Mario as their mascot gets no personality or writing. Kirby gets none (even though Sakurai way later proved his story and protag potential with Kid Icarus Uprising). Link still doesn't have a personality. The Gamefreak Pokemon games is basically the only living turn-based rpg series that has iredeemably abysmal writing. Splattoon and Arms have really cool worlds and character designs but again no writing to give it meaning.
The only parts of Nintendo that get writing or identity are side-projects or Xenoblade and Fire Emblem. Both of which came from studios and I.P.'s Nintendo bought and barely treat like theirs (also Fire Emblem not even doing well with Nintendo's reading-adverse audience until they added the dating sim elements).
I don't think I'll ever forgive shiggy miggy for cursing the paper mario series
i mean every director makes some bad choices every now and then
dont forget that he also made mario, zelda and pikmin and many more
@@السراقالمجهول The problem is that Sticker Star was a success, so Miyamoto believes he's right. Starfox Zero may have unperformed, but the 3ds remake barley broke even, so it doesn't even matter.
@@orangeslash1667 you do know that he never touched a paper mario since sticker star right? for fuck sake the last game he directed was mario 64, he just checked on projects from then
@@السراقالمجهول He actually told the staff of Sticker Star, it's fine without a story so do we really need one????
@@orangeslash1667 yup, like i said the last time he was ever involved was sticker star and it was just an input he didnt force him to do anything, they just took his words because he is so respected
Thank you SO MUCH for this. No hate for SuperMarioT, but that video was so aggravating.
I just wish someone would make a video on why the Mario Movie is a complete mess and extremely lacking in basic screenplay practices. That movie imo is further evidence of Miyamoto's indifference-at-best/incompetence-at-worst
(it'll probably be me, but uuuuugggghhhh)
My pleasure lol, I needed to vent after watching that video. Also, I think even among those who enjoyed the movie for what it was (myself included), it's generally agreed that it wasn't a great film in a vacuum, the way something like Puss in Boots: The Last Wish was.
I just so want the shackles to finally be taken off Paper Mario again. I replay Thousand Year Door every couple years or so, and it still holds up so well, and I still discover new builds and strategies and laugh at new jokes I didn't remember. I'm all about accepting games on their own terms, but no sane person can play Origami King and TYD back to back and say there isn't a massive gap between them. Every time I replay any of the original Paper Mario games I get frustrated with the current state of the franchise all over again lol.
It genuinely makes me sad that the Mario Movie outperformed legitimate masterpieces like GotG 3 and Spiderverse 2 despite it being so soulless. The same way I feel sad abt the Mario series popularity over something like Klonoa or Celeste.
Soulless corporations attracting soulless toxic fan boys with a name and a picture and call it IP, is the best fly paper. Seething over the nostalgic fantasy that attracts them but not being able to project what happiness might feel like, is just a bonus.
The main point is that actually good PROJECTS stay under the radar and gain moderate success, when Miyamoto doesn't smear them with the crusty IP. It's like not getting a fan work striked by nintendo, you want to keep mum about actually well-made GAMES so nobody like PAper Mario fans will actually imprint on them and start making demands. The mob rule strike isn't even an IP YOU invented, just one you feel entitled to, for it happening to have been smeared over a better project in the past. Back when snarky anboys actually applied themselves adn GOT those jobs, instead of coding piracy software funded by pom ads, back when capitalism sometimes happened.
I'm so glad somebody like Toby Fox doesn't waste his talent making Earthbound games as a new generation of Nintendo emloyees. And Sakurai buzzed off, good for him, too. Not getting SUCH a celebrity status that you feel entitled to start dehumanizing them as some god-like icon for you to hate. Looneys like Hollywood scientologists are createed out of YOUR culture of slave-minded inferiority complex, "just swap his name with the name of his cult lol". So some people are like Sakurai, and others succumb like Mel gibson.
The Mario movie is mediocre as hell in my opinion. The characters are underdeveloped, barely chemistry going on, writing is not good, story is nothing to write home about and nothing special, and has rush pacing. It's really just whatever and it's just there. If anything all that shows is that Myiamotto puts NSMB syndrome on the Mario Movie and doesn't care about high class narrative for Mario, even when it comes to the movie. It makes sense Myiamotto "overlooking the project" is just him helping Illumination's philosophy further just making an ok movie with a story not going much for it. Whether Myiamotto or Nintendo as a whole for their 1st party Mario IP. Doesn't matter, it's all agreed upon. That's why I also don't buy Myiamotto opening up an idea for a Mario movie is proof he's more open to higher narrative story for Mario and to be less rigid for Mario. Because even the film didn't show that.
@@retrofan4963 Remember the movie was written by the writers of Teen Titians, without Miyamoto the characters could have been out of character.
I wouldn't take as much issue with people defending Miyamoto if they didn't just use it as a way to point the finger at a different guy.Tanabe has made a bunch of questionable decisions in his time, but the amount of people I see who paint him as if he's some insane lunatic who simultaneously is so egotistical in his design that he not only destroyed Paper Mario, but kept going down the same path so clearly he fully agrees with his work, but if you ask him anything about it he lies and blames Miyamoto and Nintendo for restricting him. It just doesn't make any sense, and the cherry picking in interviews they have to do to de-credit his claims, because once again in their minds he loves his creative decisions so much he has to lie about them, drives me insane. If there wasn't someone to deflect onto, maybe we would have been long past this entire debate.
you know that since color splash paper mario story is getting better
1) That is an extremely low bar that shouldn't be taking 10 years to clear when we were already so far beyond it with the original 3 titles.
2) Origami King is still a dumpster fire game, even if the story is "more okay" than Color Splash's.
@@ThrillingDuck that's what i was saying, do you know how to interpret?
@@ThrillingDuckOrigami King is an excellent game with a good story. Plus several things about the game are better than the first 3 titles in the series in some way
@@lukeskywalker9507 It’s okay. As I indicated above, OK has its strengths, and yeah it’s an overall better experience than SS and CS (again, insanely low bar), but it doesn’t come anywhere near the original 2 entries in basically any department, and it’s so fucking hamstrung by the godawful combat - which is somehow worse than SS and CS’s.
Even the Pikmin games don’t really have that much of an in depth story. I’m not saying they need one though. Although I will say I’m still very confused about whether Pikmin 4 retconned the entire franchise or not. I am more than halfway through the game and I still have no idea. I looked online for answers, but apparently no one else has any idea either
It is WEIRDLY ambiguous about that.
Yeah Pikmin 4 kind of blows everything out of the water. In a developer interview about the game when asked about how the narrative connects with past pikmin game, he even stated to let the players figure out how it fits on timeline. After 100%ing the game, it's apparent what he meant is "We don't have an answer to that", and the game abandons the somewhat connected linear story structure of the past games to pull a Mario or a Zelda where there is no timeline, nothing is actually connected but we'll sprinkle in direct nods to past games just to give people something to talk about. It's very frustrating, and it's kind of my last straw for Miyamoto. I don't know if he's the one who came up with that, as he says he wasn't super involved in the game or anything, but he still let it happen. As he says in the interview, his words carry a LOT of weight, if even Pikmin a series we know he's very dear to can pull this off and he's fine with that, how is anyone supposed to convince me he isn't fine with everything else.
@@Whispernyan The thing is, miyamoto is an oldschool game designer. He was a legends in a time where games where mostly gameplay and story wasnt that important in most genre. But he sadly got the same mindset still, he is struggles to adapt to the times.
15:37 Did you really watched the full video? This is a point that Super Mario T touched on several videos, if somehow he didn't include in this video, he did on their previous one "Debunking Miyamoto Anti-Narrative". I watched a lot of his videos and he said on multiple occasions that this part that "its no longer possible to modify Mario characters" is completely only-Paper Mario thing, no other Mario series have this restriction, specially now in the Switch era, Luigi's Mansion 3 have unique ghosts, Mario Tennis Aces and Super Rush have original bosses, Mario Strikers Battle League created a new character as well, Mario + Rabbids series can modify Mario enemies, hell even the last game on Mario & Luigi games, had new characters, the BFFs. This restriction is only applied to fucking Paper Mario, so its hard to say that Miyamoto doesn't want new characters or ideias in new Mario games, if not he would shut down all of this for other games, how could you not see that Tanabe is the responsible for this? This only is majorly affecting Paper Mario.
You are the one that is missing the point, specially to this crucial part.
Did you finish this video? The onus is on Miyamoto to correct this issue. If he cared at ALL he would intervene. Tanabe has done this for 3 games in a row in response to Miyamoto's orders. Miyamoto is Tanabe's superior. This is on Miyamoto - rewatch the Subway example. And for the record, the Rabbids series doesn't modify Mario enemies, and neither does Luigi's Mansion. The ghosts aren't modified Mario enemies, and neither are the Rabbids. Every Goomba and Bobomb that appears in Rabbids are stock standard ones.
EDIT: I even spelled this out in the thumbnail. Not Anti-Narrative does not equal Pro-Narrative. AT BEST Miyamoto doesn't care. Now who''s missing the point smh?
@@ThrillingDuck The phrase that is said is "modify Mario characters or create new characters that touch on the Mario universe", I gave examples of the latter part and somehow you didn't even notice right? I guess I should have to say the entire phrase because if not you would nitpick or just doesn't understand.
@@ivanzoneBR24 Mhm just like you didn't touch on any of my many, MANY other points which ALL shit all over your terrible "argument." Hypocrite.
Great video, I didn't think my comment would spark such a response. Once again you've gotten me to consider a different perspective that I may have never thought of otherwise. This is a really interesting discussion to have, but unfortunately so many people are so passionate about it that it usually just turns into mindless insults. And if you ask me, there's so much more nuance to it than many people from either side like to admit. Its not as simple Miyamoto (or whoever is in charge) definitively hating or liking stories. And that's why it's so fascinating to discuss. So once again, good work on the video.
Hey welcome back, and thanks a lot! I really appreciate it :) Yeah, I wasn't expecting to have so much to say either lol, but I'm glad I have more context into all this as well now, because SuperMarioT did set straight some false assumptions that I had admittedly acquired through the general spread of misinformation. And I couldn't agree more with basically the whole rest of what you just said haha.
He didn't even have to talk about links crossbow training.
I have always agreed that Miyamoto is to blame for the lack of story in most Mario games the last 10-15 years, whether or not he is the only one I cannot say, but we have to remember too that Japan business is so much different to what we are use too, the Japanese always respect there elders in high positions even if the decisions they make are really bad. Unless Miyamoto and Nintendo change there stances on story we are not going to see changes to it anytime soon.
When I hear s### like this about how employees are always expected to just blindly obey their seniors without question, I feel so f###ing angry at the Japanese business culture for having such skewed priorities! Respecting seniority should not have to come at the cost of logical practicality. Like, what if one of their seniors was going senile for example? Any employee should be allowed a chance to be heard in case they have a well-reasoned argument, instead of just blindly obeying orders or "suggestions" without even so much as asking their superiors to clarify what they mean more! There shouldn't have been anything wrong if Tanabe just asked Miyamoto if what he said during Sticker Star's development could still allow for variation in age and gender among the Mario World's species. He could have asked if "only using characters from the Super Mario World" meant species from said world. He could have asked if "the Super Mario World" meant either the SNES game or what's been established thus far in the Mario franchise's world. But no, follow your business culture to illogical extremes instead!
The myamoto hate has always rubbed me the wrong way so i was always 100% on the super mario t train but this video made me look at it in a different way which i respect a lot
I do think that his video was framed this way because of the way myamoto was framed himself. It's just a problem with the community as a whole, either he's anti story oe pro story when he's really somewhere in the middle
"Miyamoto does not actively go around to shutdown all seedlings of a story" Not true. He actively shuts them down. Just read the the article "Miyamoto: Why I Spiked Mario Galaxy 2's Story"
*Koizumi said that he's been trying to sneak bits of story into Mario and Zelda games for his entire career at Nintendo, even as Miyamoto has been trying to keep them out.I told Miyamoto about what Koizumi had said, and he looked slightly taken aback.*
*"He said that?"*
*"Yes."*
*"Well, I put a stop to that at the beginning, this time," he said, and for emphasis punched the air with his fist."*
Well god damn. I mean, this only feeds into my overall understanding of the narrative - the ones who really need to see that are his defenders. Thanks for the clarification!
Origami King is great in my opinion, but whatever legit there are to dislike having a lack of Narrative certainly isn't one of them.
This is more or less how I feel. There is something seriously wrong at Nintendo and either no one wants to fix it or no one is allowed to do anything about it.
I'm only 2 mins into the video, came from your RE video about the different character designs. SMT is a friend of mine and his videos on paper mario are so amazing and well researched. Looking forward to your response
Mr. Miyamoto recognises the power of stories and characters although he always prioritized gameplay even giving more "story" through in game details if anything.
As for the paper Mario and other series with interesting characters i think it's kind of like something i once heard about Darth Maul, where suposedly George Lucas feared he could became cooler than vader or something....my head cannon is Mr. Miyamoto fears that the Mario franshise loses focus on Mario and some other classic charactes, plus there were characters in paper Mario that were over all more represntation and Nintendo as a whole tries to be apolitical ( which is impossible btw...) and so no taking chances with friendly bob ombs.
I'm trying to give my opinion .
Also you can double check older games, Mr. Miyamoto also gives priority to the characters he created ...
Characters from the land franchise: Daisy only came back to fill roster, no more story for her, Wario was very popular and he is still around but the care put into his first 3d game ....yeah.
Rpgs especialy the like of turn based like SMrpg, PaperMario and Mario and Luigi not favoured over the zelda style, which is more action adv or so but some view as rpg and it kind of is in some parts... What characters from Mario rpgs were used in other game ? Geno as a mii costume?....
What i mean is i do really respect Mr.Miyamoto, he created so many things now bigger than himself... i also want to see him be, as said in interviews just a "ghost" checking on the teams at Nintendo, i hope he keeps inspiring but also shares the creative control more, like with the likes of Mr. Koizumi which has brought more stories to the zelda and Mario franshises.
I'm just a fan and i rant too, this video was a good watch, young or old gamers do your research, all Nintendo fans like and want to keep liking and loving the exciting games in our favourite franshises, let still be critical of them and the people involved.
Let's hope for the best games to come and also replay the best we have already while we can, life is short✌️
I've been saying this, i could give a rat's ass about who are putting these restrictions on paper mario, I just care that they are happening. Ive seen this ridiculous tendency to kinda handwave away concerns by saying stuff like, "it isnt their fault they're working as best they can under these limitations." But it's the same concept: avoiding the heart of the matter by focusing on a completely different person or concept. In other words, I don't care if Miyamoto is ruining the story/creativity or if the developers are trying as hard as they can under these ridiculously stipulations, I care that it IS happening. This definitely doesn't apply to everyone, but it seems like some of them are deliberately missing the point to pretend like Nintendo HASN'T been going against common fan demand in this franchise since 2011.
If anything the rest of Nintendo should be looking to the old Paper Mario games for inspiration. Imagine a 3d Mario game where Mario returns to the Glitz Pit and beats up Macho Man again. Rather than having to be so rigid about no no you can't create new species or different iterations on them. That is incredibly stupid and frustrating to not just us but to the ones who want more creative freedom.
19:25 What's your problem with this? I don't know why you making a scandal/rant on the Rabbids dressed as Mario characters. Do you somehow failed to realize that the Rabbids are like blank canvas of characters? They put rabbids with the clothes of Mario characters because it fucking made sense, what would you do if you have a entire franchise of generic white rabbits and fused with Mario? This game was a massive experiment that payed off greatly and in the sequel, they had more new fresh ideas, that couldnt be done without the first game existence, they not only created new characters like Edge, the Spark Hunters and the planet Wardens, but also gave voices for each of the Mario Rabbids. I don't what you were expecting? A character or enemy outside of the Main Mario series or something that has nothing to do with Rabbids in a Rabbids game? Don't make me laugh. You can't expect a third party developer get the rights to use Wanda from Mario & Wario on the SNES in their game.
Ubisoft have creative freedom to work with the Mario series, but they obviously will not ask for deep cuts of characters. Also the games are beautiful, visually they have way more depth and interesting imagery than New Super Mario Bros.
You know what would make sense for party members in an RPG? Original characters, like Mallow and Geno. Or Edge in the sequel. You know what would have made more sense for the original? Rayman, Globox, Barbara and Teensy from the Rayman series which Rabbids were spun off from. They're already perfect analogues to the Mario party members and this decision is so obvious it fucking writes itself.
Nobody has ever made an RPG where half the playable cast are a bunch of dumbass "blank canvases" cosplaying as the other half of the playable cast - it's hare-brained and ridiculous. The fact that the bar has gotten so low that people like you don't even see a problem with it is ridiculous. But by all means, come back and tell me when the next Final Fantasy is a crossover with Rabbids, and your party consists of Cloud, Tifa, Barrett, and 3 Rabbids cosplaying as them.
@@ThrillingDuck Alright so, you are basically saying fuck the rabbids, Rayman would be a better crossover, and to be honest you are right, Rayman has a way more deep classic set of characters than the rabbids, however you just can't disrespect the amount of work that Ubisoft put into these games just because some of the characters are rabbids with the clothes of the Mario cast. Kingdom Battle introduced really great enemies and bosses designs, that they even reused them for the newest Rabbids party game. The game was creative, it broke conventions, it saved/evolve the Rabbids series and the game was a passion project, Sparks of Hope is the better game yes, it have lore for many of their original characters and its way more developed, but Kingdom Battle as simple as it is did a better job than the Mario rpgs in the 2011-2020 decade. Now, you just talked about how a crossover of Rabbids and Final Fantasy would be bland right? But what about a crossover with Mario? Do you know about Mario Hoops 3-on-3 and Sports Mix? Those games don't do nothing noteworthy at all, its a sports crossover and there are no interactions between the characters whatsoever and before you say "its a simple sports game, why you are expecting a story, dialogue, interactions and stuff" bullshit, a lot of sports games have stories indies like Golf Story, Dodgeball Academia, Camelot Sports games and even the freaking Mario & Sonic at the Olympic series, they could had done a epic story bringing back Mallow and Geno in all of that but they opted for the simple route. A Mario crossover with Final Fantasy sounds way more interesting than the Rabbids, but in the end the Final Fantasy one was braindead and the one with Rabbids was amazing. So don't assume a crossover of Final Fantasy and the rabbids would be bad, anything can happen, maybe it could be a great game, people laughed at Sakurai for thinking a crossover game like Smash Bros would be remotely good and looking where he is now. I think I said everything I wanted to write and Im not gonna change stuff, you can waste your time replying to me or not, I don't care, the Mario & Rabbids games mean a lot to me as does 3 original Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi and I just can't let it slide that you would criticize so much this game just because of the design of the main characters and such, thats it, I'm gonna stop now.
@@ivanzoneBR24 As with most people who get this bent out of shape on my videos, you’re so distracted by Miyamoto’s cock in your mouth that you failed to notice I literally complimented the Rabbids games. I didn’t say they were dogshit, I said they were “excellent RPGs mechanically speaking.” They’re just dogshit in the story and character department because for all the love that the dev team put into them, story and characters clearly weren’t a fucking priority - thanks again to Miyamoto being massively indifferent to those elements and it not occurring to him to maybe suggest they actually focus on that stuff, when he was so quick to tell Tanabe to strip it away.
Also who laughed at Sakurai for the idea of Smash? Literally no one thought that an all stars crossover fighter was a bad idea.
Your rant about Mario Hoops was pointless. I know about it. It’s a sports game. My hypothetical crossover was in reference to an RPG, but I guess I should’ve specified that. I genuinely thought it was obvious since the point of comparison was Kingdom Battle, but whatever.
@@ThrillingDuckI think Sparks of Hope is more than just slightly ahead of Sticker Star, Paper Jam, Color Splash, and Origami King when it comes to character creativity. You have Edge, the planet Wardens, some other distinct Rabbid NPCs, the Spark Hunters, and Cursa. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's as diverse in it's cast as what earlier Mario RPGs had, but I wouldn't say it's almost as low as the bar that Sticker Star set.
@@oliverhurt3418 You’re more generous than me haha, but that’s fine. The thing with Sparks is that the dialogue is so minimal that the characters barely even register to me. I like Edge but we know literally nothing about her aside from she’s a former Spark Hunter. We don’t even know why - why she did it or why she quit. As for the Wardens, I mean it’s great that they have dialogue and are “original characters” but they’re sooooooo uninteresting imo. I ended up skipping 99% of their dialogue because it was just unfunny, uninteresting “lore” dumps. Overall, the characters in Sparks felt more like ideas that hadn’t been fleshed out at all.
The funniest and saddest part about this entire thing is that people were using the Pikmin series as an example of Miyamoto liking stories only for Pikmin 4 to retcon the entire series for absolutely no reason
As a StarFox fan, him trying to use StarFox Zero as a point for miyamoto being for stories is like being in a boxing match, being punched repeatedly in the face and saying "look I'm winning". StarFox Zeros story could have easily been tweaked enough to be a sort of soft reboot with time traveling elements. Its a face palming moment.
Of all his arguments, that was genuinely the most baffling one, and your analogy was spot on. SFZ is truly just evidence against what he was trying to prove lol.
@@ThrillingDuckIt only gets worse. I've recently learned that the teloporters in Zero, one of the big "new" plot point isn't even new. Andross Teloporters existed in snes, 2, and 64 in the manuals. All Miyamoto did was swap focus from Bio weapons to teloporters. That's all he did.
I don't really blame Miyamoto much for the direction Paper Mario took following Sticker Star since even if he is constantly telling them not to put much thought into the story, he probably isn't telling them to make the gameplay itself suck too which (at least for me) has always been my main point of contention even though I miss the creativity from those first 3 games. I know this is a video about the story debate but I felt like I ought to mention this since I find it way more likely Intelligent Systems doesn't know what they're doing over the Miyamoto narrative at this point.
I actually touched on the gameplay side of that as well towards the end, and my argument is the same as with the narrative - dude is still playing builds of these games and approving. He was perfectly quick to offer "suggestions" like "hey, why does this RPG need story?" and yet has had NOTHING to say for 3 games in a row when presented with a fundamentally broken gameplay loop in which you're punished for engaging in the combat. Miyamoto is complicit and I blame him just as much as IS.
@@ThrillingDuck wait since Miyamoto cares so much about games, shouldn't he have even more to say about that then the game having an interesting story or characters having names or whatever the hell
@@ThrillingDuck Yeah, I guess that's a fair point. I was gonna make the case that Miyamoto possibly saw it as good enough and figuring most people would like Origami King, for example, since it was different enough from the last few games, but that just all comes back to the argument of why they changed how the games worked to begin with when both critical and fan responses for those games was so good.
Also yeah, him saying literally anything about the gameplay probably would get them thinking more about it if he chose to since no other franchise under Nintendo's belt has changed as much as PM has outside of maybe Zelda.
@@megasoniczxx Myamotto is a huge part to blame for this no matter where where you look at it. He's the one who told in the first place that Sticker Star does not need a story to be good, along with requesting restrictions on characters. How is he not to blame for this?
@@megasoniczxx The problem is that Paper Mario is important back then because their wasn't much RPGs on the Gamecube. Ever the 3ds rpgs are everywhere, so Miyamoto wanted to make Paper Mario as gimmicky as possible in order to standout. Even if it just appeals to kids, and it worked.
People don't understand Miyamoto's style of story telling which is "show the story, don't tell the story, show it."
6:03 bro.. that person you talking about is fanboy..
no sorry fanKID at best..
Miyamoto said they have to stop writing
but he didn't listen an wrote the story book
Miyamoto didn't know story book is in the game..
But when they were testing the game
Everyone liked it and Miyamoto was like
well, fvck that let the book stay..
22:38 Tbf the problem with these games isn’t that they were green lit in the first place, except for maybe zip lash since it’s completely different from all the rest of the games in the series and should’ve been a spinoff. Federation force is only hated because of when it was announced And from what I understand so is hey pikmin. These games are spin offs so them being different from the mainline Games is ok. I’ve played all of these games and I’ve liked all of them. Zip lash is a decent platformer (I haven’t played any of the other Chibi Robo games which is why I really don’t have an opinion on it) and I think hey pikmin is really cute and honestly better than Pikmin 2. Federation force is an incredible game. Playing that game in multiplayer is some of the most fun I’ve had in the game in a while. Plus telling a side story within the Metroid universe with different characters is actually pretty cool to me. The problem with these games isn’t that they were green lit, it’s more so everything else that was happening while the game was announced or released
The context of their original release is important. Spin-offs can be received very well so long as the mainline variants aren’t in the midst of a nearly (or greater) decade long hiatus. Regarding Zip Lash and Hey Pikmin, I’ve actually played both and think they’re both genuinely mediocre. Federation Force I haven’t been able to play (no friends with hacked 3DS and DEFINITELY no friends willing to pay for it lol) but even if it’s a good game in a vacuum, it was NOT the right game to release at that time. Triforce Heroes was a similar product released in the same window, but everyone just sort of enjoyed it for what it was and didn’t make a big stink because Zelda in general wasn’t dead in the water.
@@ThrillingDuck the context of the releases is important. I understand why they where hated on like they where but that context doesn’t make them bad games
@@theghostwiththemost789 Totally fair! I happen to think they’re bad games anyway, but that’s just my opinion haha. Glad you could get enjoyment out of them - I enjoy plenty of “bad” games :)
@@ThrillingDuck I get that. I enjoy playing animal crossing Amiibo festival with friends. It’s hilarious. If you ever get a chance to play Federation Force, I would recommend it. It works just fine in single player and you can still have a good time with it but it’s a lot more fun with multiple people. I also recommend the video “Metroid prime Federation Force deserves to be remembered” by Pipi DaFeces. It’s a great video
@@ThrillingDuckI get that. I like to play animal crossing Amiibo festival. It’s hilarious with friends. If you ever do get a chance to play a Federation Force, I would recommend it. I also highly recommend the video “Metroid Prime Federation Force deserves to be remembered”. It’s fantastic
Like the only zelda games i really played was 4 swords and the open world switch games like totk/botw. So what im asking is if Zelda is really that good of evidence to support that miyamoto is "pro story"? Like nevermind the timeline debacle, I've heard that 90% of zelda storytelling is just instructions, like "Sonic has to collect the 7 chaos emeralds" storytelling.
@@yungmuney5903 Lol I’d say that take is a little bit reductive, but I can see where someone would interpret it that way. Zelda stories definitely aren’t as robust and fleshed out as a typical western fantasy RPG, but most of them at least feature vignettes/scenarios unique to each location you visit as part of your mcguffin hunt.
That said I would not be surprised if Miyamoto had suggested getting rid of even those at some point.
amen, the older Mario RPGs were so creative, BIS being my personal favorite for like 500 reasons. It looks like Paper Jam has the best gameplay but I can barely trudge through the generic as fuck NSMB shit in those actual games, much less an RPG.
I tried so hard to get through Paper Jam, but it's just. So. BLAND. Talk about gameplay hard-carrying.
Though you make good points that Miyamoto is still to blame for how the last three Paper Marios turned out, I'm sure we can still agree that he's not the only one at fault. I still blame Tanabe too for needlessly treating Miyamoto's irresponsible suggestions from back then like it's the Gospel. I really hope the TTYD remake outsells Origami King to convince Intelligent Systems to unshackle themselves. I don't want to see a fourth (fifth if you count Paper Jam) new Paper Mario that is so creatively bankrupt with it's cast.
Though I will say that your opinions about other Mario Spin-offs' creative direction is a bit too negative. I can understand that games like Kingdom Battle, Sparks of Hope, and Luigi's Mansion 3 don't have any modified enemy characters from the Super Mario World, they still have unique original characters that are in said world; or universe in Sparks of Hope. Speaking of Sparks of Hope, the Sparks could count as a modification to the Lumas; considering how they're fused with Rabbids. That could be seen as a small win right there.
Also, about the Mario Movie, while I hear it's not really that great, I think I recall reading that it was mainly intended to not suck like many other movie adaptations of video games have in the past, which it succeeded at. I'm just trying to build some optimism here.
Okay, for the record, I already know that I could’ve made the question more brief and concise but I just couldn’t stop thinking about it and wanted convey as much information as possible. So, let me rephrase that question: “Why did these creative limitations only apply to the later Paper Mario games but NOT the other Mario franchises?”
Honestly I feel like they kind of did? It’s easy to forget now that Odyssey and Wonder exist, but this was also the New Super Mario Bros Era, and like I said in the video I wasn’t exactly impressed with the writing and characters in Rabbids to put it generously.
@@ThrillingDuckOkay fair point but I can’t help but feel like there’s kind of a hole in your theory. See the thing is that the New Super Mario Bros series has been around since 2,006 and debatably continued until 2018 (going off the assumption that New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe is considered a new entry in the series). The whole “Myiamoto effect” was conceived to have been a thing ever since Paper Mario Sticker Star which came out in 2012. This made me think that the social media has gaslit people into thinking this has been a thing before we actually knew about it because lots of people also apply the “Myiamoto effect” to other games like Super Mario Galaxy 2. And while this MIGHT’VE been true, you can’t convince me that these creative limitations were just as severe as they were when Sticker Star was in production. Nor can you convince me that the other Mario franchise suffered the same fate. Yes, the controversy started with Sticker Star in 2012 and continued until 2020 with Origami King, but look games like Mario Odyssey or Luigi’s Mansion 3. Both those games had plenty of original characters, gimmicks and stories, and they both came out after Sticker Star and before Origami King. The only other series that I could even recall having the same problem would be the Mario sports games. Granted, I could honestly go on and list plenty of other examples but I just don’t really feel like repeating myself so I’ll rest my case.
@@Master-Fawful958 I gotcha. My only counterpoint is that tbh I still consider Origami King a victim of this lol. OK was a few steps in the right direction, but to me it still felt hamstrung by artificial restrictions. Arlo put my feelings about it best: “a monument to compromise.” It may have looked like a big leap forward compared to Sticker Star and Color Splash, but frankly it still fell massively short of even the original Paper Mario in my book. I didn’t like it very much in case anyone couldn’t tell haha.
Okay, but that’s not quite what I meant. I mean, ignoring the fact that the restrictions were technically more “loose” than artificial, my point was that I only saw these restrictions only apply to modern Paper Mario and have seemingly come to an end AFTER Origami King, not during the game’s time of release. And even beyond that, I’m being completely honest with you when I that LEGITIMATELY can’t stand Origami King. It’s actually the Mario RPG that don’t like because I honestly thought Color Splash was a step in right direction, and I even legitimately enjoyed Sticker Star in a “so bad that it’s good” kinda way. And I said once and I’ll say it again: “The closer Origami King came to giving the fans what they wanted, the more it made me furious because it felt like the game was taunting them with it rather than actually providing it.” And the game did that a LOT ! The game teased the fans with partners, badges, equipment. The battle system was over-complicated mess, game constantly showers you coins, and King Olly’s backstory retroactively ruined his character for me. This is why I’d argue Mario and Luigi Paper Jam is a MUCH better game. Alphadream proved that they could make a fun and entertaining game within the Nintendo’s restrictions (assuming that the restrictions did actually apply to them). Meanwhile, Origami King tried way too hard to appeal the fans at the cost of some fundamentally bad game design choices, the developers basically tried to have their cake and eat it too. And even if Paper Jam didn’t win over the fans, I’d argue the 3DS remakes ended on quite the high note with side campaigns because they had great storytelling and at least SOME original characters found within.
@@Master-Fawful958 Ah I see, and yeah I’d say I agree with pretty much all of that 👍
Hello again!
Whilst Im here, Im still not convinced yet for Miyamoto disliking stories; it is such a baffling thing to say, and is as ridicolous as saying pro story. No, I dont think Miyamoto hate stories nor actively removing them, but at the same time, he does have a vision and preferences as it shows within his works as well. Zelda being a major title, Pikmin, the older Mario RPGs (though, I quite heavily disagree about the newer Mario and Luigi being bland as heck. They do have charm, and I love it.) Paper Mario series before Sticker Star and such.
Obviously, we do not know the higher archy of Nintendo. I find the granted information that is contrasted to the pubkic is very little, but what I can say is that Intellegence System does indeed have full creative control, or almost. Miyamoto doesnt necessarily need to be *in* this IP, as this is moreso a Nintendo/Law thing. Whilst you are right that Miyamoto doesnt care, we also need to put in mind that this is a period where everything was safe interms of IPs. Howbeit, Miyamoto might have a hand in this, the newer Mario titles are now changing for the better, and the obvious is Odyssey, Luigis Mansion 3 (love this masterpiece) and the Mario and Rabbids series. Speaking of which, Mario and Rabbids Sparks of Hope does actually have a good story and characterization for certain characters, which surprised me. Yes, it is not the deepest but that is something that Miyamoto sort of had in hand. For Mario and Rabbids Kingdom Battle, however, I wont speak of the story but it is simple and makes sense, but what I want to actually speak of is how this game is made; I highly recommend reading the interviews for this game as it shows that Miyamoto had a quite some heavy hand in this title. He allowed it because it actually was fun, weird and creative.
Lastly, the past doesnt last for longz and we are entering a new era for Miyamoto and Nintendo; with the Mario film and how brilliant and creative it was (at least for a hardcore Mario fan like me, that is) and the absolute genius of Odyssey as well as the upcoming New 2D Mario gamez it seems that Miyamoto is opening up more and more.
My point is this: It depends on Miyamoto on what he wants in his game, and it seems that Narrative is the least one, but my problem with the whole stupid "Anti" and "Pro" Narrative stuff is that it is waaaay out of proportion for Miyamoto. And i would argue that this suggestion of "without" a story wouldnt do much, because Miyamoto himself called the game boring at its second (and last) play testing for the game. I dont think he entirely has the most hands when it comes to releasing a project, nor he no longer have any hands on Intellegence system. He checka from here and there but he doesnt say anything otherwise.
He might no longer care for Paper Mario and he might be a partial blame, but the entire blame? I would argue it is more on Tanabe when he finally had his creative control.
Miyamoto does care for his projects, even if it is indirect like DK Country Troopical Freeze as well as Mario and Rabbids, Galaxy 1 and 2, 3D World, Pikmin, Zelda, older Star Fox series and so on.
One small note to mention is that Chris Pratt casting wasnt all Miyamoto. Nintendo always picks the safest option, which honestly, Im fine with. Chris Pratt worked very well, even if it was a corporate move.
Edit: My entire point here is that Miysmoto doesnt hate narrative (which is a stupid thing to think about) nor does he actively want stories. Moreso, a preference or a slight care for the series, evident with Zelda and Pikmin.
You're doing the thing. You're using a single line from an interview saying a vague promise "We have almost complete creative control", even when almost right after, and as this video itself states they literally clarify saying they don't have creative control over certain elements, mainly characters. Now story and gameplay, sure they likely do have mostly free reigns on those but no one is arguing against that. A story requires characters, if you can't make the characters you want you can't make the story you want that's a given. Not to mention Tanaba produced Luigi's Mansion 3 and Tropical Freeze, he was partly responsible for questionable decisions in both series but that didn't get in the way of making good games.
And yeah obviously things aren't black and white, there's no such thing as being 100% anti story, but Paper Mario's original name was literally Mario Story, it's entries are known for having story and unique engaging characters. If Miyamoto can walk over to the studio making MARIO STORY, and tell them actually story isn't really that needed, how can anyone in good faith make an argument that he isn't 100% anti story, even if that is hyperbole. We're not just talking about Mario, we're talking about a RPG, imagine telling any other RPG that story isn't needed, or don't focus on story as much, how do you even rationalize that. Especially at a time where every facet of the Mario Universe was toning down on stories, 2D Mario games never had that much story, but they did still have story. They weren't just "Bowser stole the Princess, get her back", there were still other things at stake in Super Mario Bros 1, 3, World etc.
And I still don't get why people keep pointing at Odyssey, it's neat all all but what is the implication? That 3D Mario was on a decline before it. Galaxy 2 and 3D Land both released only a year apart, and 3D World was only 2 years after Land, relative to the output we're used on Switch you could just say 3D Land and World don't exist and the only gap was Galaxy 2 to Odyssey. It's been as long from Galaxy 2 to Odyssey as it's been Odyssey to right now.
@@Whispernyan Feels like I offended you, so my bad; anyhow, Im getting bored of this topic and I wont continue on it. I can but Im just not interested because it is stupid. It is a stupid of a topic as it can get, and you know why? You tell me that World, smb3 and the older 2d mario games had a *sort* of stake.... NO. WHAT? Maybe for World as you save every Yoshi egg but what? It is the same story as Bowser kidnaps Peach, and you cannot argue that whatsoever, and the same thing applies with every mainline Mario game with different spins on it. The soup games are the same thing however, as they dont put any spin. But one thing that noticed my eyes is Luigi's Mansion and Tropical Freeze saying that those series had questionable decesions before them... WHAT... JUST WHAT??? I kinda can understand with LM since it had a more linear experience wuth Dark Moon, but I wouldnt call it questionable since a lot of people liked the structure of the game. I can understand with the Ghosts variety though.
For DK??? HECK NO... I cant even remember a single decesion that was laughably questionable in the Country series, and not to mention improving on one another... no.
Also, what do you mean by a decline for 3D Mario after Galaxy 2? ...what IS exactly your point? 3D World and 3D Land were fantastic on their own right and saying they were a decline for the series is laughably wrong, especiallg when it is ported on the switch with new content in it. 3D Land on the other hand was its small little thing. It wasnt something that made much but it was a good game nonetheless. A classic Mario as it can gets, and I love it. Not to mention having the best endgame in any Mario series.
My implication in Odyssey is how it strayed away from all the Mario stuff, to the point where I felt that the art direction didnt feel like Mario. It felt off, but that isnt my point. My point is how Odyssey shoke things up for the artstyle and how weird it was. And that is a good thing. Now, Wonder is on the horizon and there is plenty of new things in it! I cannot wait to play it!
Anyhow, lastly, the whole Miyamot doesnt like stories is still bullshit in my eyes. Yes, he shouldve not done this suggestion for Paper Mario but we still dont know exactky why he said that; it might be because Tanabe truly fumbled on the gameplay department because Miyamoto called the game boring twice. And the restrictions upon the team might be because of the IP department, and not Miyamoto. IP team and Miyamoto arent the same thing interms of legal matters, and you might have a point here. Gald you pointed that out for me that they dont *fully* have a complete control... HOWEVER, they do still mostly have all the control, and infact, it is either the IP team or Tanabe himself that restricts the team, but as you pointed out with LM3, it is most likely the IP team.
Sorry if it came off as a bit offensive this time around, I just dont believe the whole "Miyamoto HATES STORIES!!!" or "Miyamoto LOVES STORIES!!!" No, in all fairness, this whole is just onga bonga. It is straight and simple, Miyamoto just doesnt care for Paper Mario and left it to the Ip team and Tanabe to figure it out.
@@AndrewThePoet In Super Mario Bros 1, it wasn't just Bowser kidnapped Peach, he also turned all the Toads into various objects and Peach is the only one who can undo the magic. In Super Mario Bros 3, Bowser didn't just kidnap Peach, he also transformed all the rulers of the various kingdoms and Mario helps them revert back during the game. In World like you said Mario rescues the trapped Yoshis. Both in 3 and World the extra stakes are things related to finishing a world, minor real victories throughout the game. That's just gone in the New series. Even within the series it gets worse, in DS and I believe 2 you're at least chasing the person who has Peach throughout the game, whereas in Wii and Wii U Peach is at the endpoint and you physically accomplish nothing during the entire game.
And no questionable decisions in Luigi Mansion 2 and Donkey Kong Country? Tanabe was on board with the removal of Portrait Ghosts in 2, something he stepped back on for 3 when he became producer, and he's also the direct reason the Kremlings stopped being the villains of the franchise which is definitely something people complained about since especially in Tropical Freeze's case, they were not replaced with something more interesting.
And yes decline in 3D Mario in terms of originality. I never would have guessed you were referring to visual presentation given that while Odyssey's theme does involve changing art styles, none of it is really anti-mario. Except for when it's realism, but that's a bit antithetical. Every new enemy presented in the game is very easy to visualize existing in a future installment with a uniform art style. Especially given that given Mario's long history practically each of it's 3D installments just on a basis of the technology they exist on all have very varied art styles. There's a reason practically nothing originating from the 3D titles makes it's way into the greater Mario universe, outside of 3D Land and World, none of it is cohesive they're all too visually distinctive from everything else.
@@Whispernyan I dont think the first point matters much, nor I think it is very necessary; in all fairness, you do have indeed a point interms of the extra stakes (within the 2D Mario that is) but I still dont think it is a big deal nor something of importance. In all honesty, I dont care about these so called Kingdoms as I save, because the same sort of feeling I get whenever I finish a whole level in a new Soup game. It is nice, indeed, a nice little addition but I dont it matters as it is to small, not interesting and such. And for the DK part, I honestly see that as a good thing. We dont need the Kremlings as their job is done. We dont need them to return again and again and again. I do agree that they shouldve replaced them with something more interesting but again, it is such a small little thing that I dont think it matters, because the visual storytelling makes up for it as well as the masterclass of level design and such. And again, as I said before, I may understand with LM but again, I dont it mattered. (As you mentioned in the first comment of yours)
Lastly, I dont care about the originality of a 3D Mario game if it is experimental and delievered on such a fantastical scale
Could 3D Land/World used more of an original artstyle? Sure thing but it is far from bad and infact, I prefer it over the Odyssey realistic artstyle. You do not need to make a game more distinct, because 3D World already looks distinct in the 3D mainline Mario games. And the more time goes on, the more I see people appreciate 3D World more and more. No, 3D Mario didnt decline, but rather people wanted something else from 3D World that was unfounded.
My point is this: 3D World and Land despite their safe approach for their artstyle, it is a serene and fabulous one, which they have done a very well done job at it. But at the same time, there is a problem. There is nothing next to 3D World or Land that makes its visual more unique, which Im referreing to the 2D Mario games. If there was something unique next to it, people would appreciate it more but within this context of its era, things wasnt looking good in that department. Anyhow, 3D World and Land does have their own spin on the visuals, and they ARE cohesive enough to stand on their own? Is it safe? I cannot deny that but it masters the style for its own sake.
Glad we are having a civil disscussion!
@@AndrewThePoet The problem is that Paper Mario is important back then because their wasn't much RPGs on the Gamecube. Ever the 3ds rpgs are everywhere, so Miyamoto wanted to make Paper Mario as gimmicky as possible in order to standout. Even if it just appeals to kids, and it worked.
I don't understand peoples obsessions with stories in games. Yes you can have them and they can be good, but if a game doesn't have one that doesn't make it any less of an art piece.
While I’m personally of the opinion that an engaging story can elevate any game, regardless of genre, this particular video isn’t about whether or not a game needs a story to be good (which I agree, it doesn’t necessarily). This video is about series setting expectations of a certain narrative caliber through precedent.
Modern Paper Mario isn’t bad because it lacks an involved narrative and developed characters, but fans of the series had come to expect those things, as they were elements which elevated the games to the point that they were fan favorites. They were part of the series identity, and something that set it apart from mainline. I would argue that modern Paper Mario IS bad, but that’s because their mechanical design and gameloop are bad also.
The video is also primarily about the “does Miyamoto dislike story?” debate, and whether or not you value story in games is outside the scope of what it’s exploring.
I mean, I don't think Shadow the Hedgehog would surpass even Eggman and Tails in popularity if it wasn't for the story. They can seriously impact and skyrocket the brand with the emotional connection stories can make, but can also crumble when done poorly. Double edged sword really.
So, before you started to question me again for the statements I made, I gotta say I'm kinda disappointed of how this all turned out, I watched a couple of years ago your video of the decline of Mario rpgs and I agree with a lot of things, like Bowser's Inside Story having a bland world and I played BIS and SPM the most like you, so its a bit painful to strongly disagree with you now in this video, but I will be ok. I hope you at least understand some of my points and not just say I'm stupid for thinking the way I do because if not, the problem is with you, I don't mean any harm to you, I hope you do the same for me okay? Respect is something everyone need to learn. Goodbye.
You’re not stupid for having a divergent opinion - I have a tendency to get aggravated when people overtly miss my points and then make broad sweeping statements about how ill thought-out my arguments are, while presenting evidence that I already accounted for in my argument. Consider it a pet peeve.
Having said that, I’m not a bully. I receive respectful disagreements all the time, which I always reply to with mutual respect. So of course I respect you wanting to rescind the overt negativity.
I’m glad we see eye to eye on something, and you’re perfectly entitled to blame Tanabe if you feel that strongly about it despite my arguments. Thank you for taking the time to listen regardless.
I mean this wouldn't have happened without people misconceiving that Miyamoto is anti-story, but at the same time this video also has its own brand of misconceptions of Miyamoto valuing story in his games. I on the other hand, just think Miyamoto is on this gray area where if game needs story, then story he shall focus on. I mean for christ's sake this guy made Metroid and Zelda and you're telling me he's 100% anti story?
It is insane to promote Metroid for story.
Until Fusion all the "story" you got was a paragraph at the start and or end of the game. With that being the first game to try and characterize Samus. Otherwise it was more focused on sexualizing Samus by having her strip if you beat the game fast enough.
Then Retro Studios gives a tiny bit of story but really they are giving "lore" and a direction. They don't do anything with Samus's character really.
Other M is one of the most sexist disgusting PoS that has been put out by AAA studios. But that has been the direction Nintendo as a whole have been taking her character but just made it so she shuts up. Changing her from a strategist walking around in a tank. To a busty action star that relies on her athletics (every game she has appeared in since Brawl her bust and ass sizes have increased and her suit has become more form-fitting and she has become more frail and reactionary, while they also have not gotten rid of her stripping to "reward" players).
I can rant for a good while about the Zelda series also being an embarrasment story-wise but Metroid and Nintendo's handlng of Samus is just disgraceful and repugnant at best.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 I feel like you lost the plot, it's weird to bring up Brawl specifically when every smash game since has dramatically reduced her assets, and also what does any of that mean. Post brawl the only Metroid games were Other M, which is Other M, a remake of Metroid 2 which doesn't even feature the casual wear outside of an ending that requires an Amiibo to even play, and Dread which doesn't even have Zero Suit at all. Much less the comment about the suits becoming more form fitting. Her default suit is still considered to be her Prime Varia suit, which is super un form fitting but all that extra nonsense is literally extra nonsense and her base suit is much more form fitting even there, which is what most games follow. You start off small and become more visually larger over it's course.
Myiamoto did not create Metroid. Gunpie Yokoi(who created Game & Watch, GameBoy ect) created Metroid. "If game needs story, then story he shall focus on" Then why did he ruin Paper Mario by saying it doesn't need a story during development of Sticker Star when the story is the point of Paper Mario aka In Japan, it's Mario Story. If he intended story on games that's necessary according to him, he didn't do a good job even at that. He even allowed Paper Mario to be ruined 3 times in a row with Sticker Star - Origami King. Also stories and lore helps games to have more personality and more character to the games. If Myiamoto purposely doesn't purposely put care to that on games "that's not needed", that's all on him and Nintendo as a whole for the 1st Party games.
@@Whispernyan The problem with Other M is Sakamoto's insistence on the Metroid timeline. The game takes place after Super but before Fusion, why you're just making things more difficult for your self when telling a story??? Especially if the story is a super mellow dramatic soup opera.
Also Miyamoto was only involved in the Prime games, he didn't work on the other Metroid games.
@@ericwijaya2119 "It's fine without a story, do we really need one?" -Shigeru Myiamotto.
Miyamotos fuddy duddyness is showing time to retire
Since Pikmin 4 decided to throw the entire timeline out the window for no reason, the only Nintendo series I like that has a timeline that isn’t a complete mess is Metroid💀. Imo Metroid is probably the Nintendo franchise with the best storytelling (Other M notwithstanding)
Prime even slots in very cleanly between Metroid 1 and 2! And I don’t even dislike Other M as much as most people. It had some good ideas, it just botched the execution. Honestly I still think it’s a fun game though.
@@ThrillingDuck i’ve been going through and playing all of the Metroid games for the first time. I just beat Federation force and that game absolutely does not deserve It’s poor reputation. It’s a great game that just came out at the worst possible time. I haven’t played other M yet so idk if I would like the game play or not but I do know that it’s story is not the best. I do think all of the prime games all taking place between Metroid 1 and 2 could become a problem in the future. I think the problem is how many games take place between Metroid 1 and 2. There are now 5 games that take place there and soon to be 6 assuming prime 4 will be set after Federation Force, which it most likely will. It’s starting to feel very bloated. The events of prime are never mentioned in the main series (besides the ending of Samus returns) but this does make sense because most of the mainline games came out before prime but I feel like this does have some effects on the story
@@theghostwiththemost789 The problem with Other M is that the game takes place after Super but before Fusion. That alone is a bad idea, because all that does put you in box in terms of story telling.
Fun Fact: While Castlevania games do have a timeline, Koji Igarashi demands that certain games be non canon so that the timeline makes sense.
Other M would have been better if the story was standalone and non canon.
To be completely honest, the Myiamoto controversy has always been (in my opinion) too contradictory for me to believe either side. I mean, none of the “defenders” have ever been bothered to bring up literally any of the games that not only HAVE strong or decent narratives but have also technically credited him for his involvement regarding the development, (like the first three Mario and Luigi RPGs, just as an example). It, at the very least, would’ve been a better defense than straight up ignoring the infamous Paper Mario Sticker Star interview. And, this whole controversy has really only made me question when, how, and why so many people choose exaggerate the truth, whether you choose to accuse him (let-alone ANYONE at Nintendo HQ) or play devil’s advocate. If anything, I’ve always thought that Myiamoto was always OKAY with story in the games but was always trying to prioritize the gameplay. But this entire controversy has always left me with one question: “If Nintendo was so damn insistent on these creative limitations that’ve been in place ever since Sticker Star’s release and continued with the release Color Splash and Origami King, then why was Mario and Luigi Dream Team allowed to have a cast of original characters and locations while the Bowser’s Inside Story remake came with three original antagonists considering that was released one year before Origami King?”
It IS a stupendously weird double standard, but I do feel that even the Mario and Luigi games got noticeably blander after BiS.
@@ThrillingDuckThat’s fair enough. But even Dream Team still had decent amount of original content, if anything, I’d say that the only thing that proved to be more bland than the first three games was the plot because it was so much simpler than the original trilogy. By contrast, the 3DS remakes had great side-stories (which you’ve already dedicated an entire review/analysis dissecting both of the aforementioned side-stories) but didn’t really have much else in terms of original characters or locations, and that’s basically because they were just (albeit great) remakes.
@@Master-Fawful958 The problem is that Sticker Star was a success, so Miyamoto believes he's right. Starfox Zero may have unperformed, but the 3ds remake barely broke even, so it doesn't even matter.
As for the Mario and Luigi series. The only that Miyamoto was even remotely involved with was the first one, thats it.
@@orangeslash1667 With all due respect I three counterpoints. First off, I don’t really see how Star Fox Zero is even remotely relevant to my comment aside being on 3DS. And secondly, I said that Myiamoto was CREDITED with the RPGs and not directly involved with their development. Hell, ThrillingDuck even directly addressed this in one of his videos. “Thank you for your keeping your fuckin’ nose out of AlphaDream’s work Myiamoto”. I mean George Lucas didn’t get involved in the development of the Star Wars sequel trilogy but he was still credited for creating the franchise. Granted Myiamoto didn’t have to sell his rights to anyone like Lucas did but my point still stands. And third: (this kinda refers back to the mention of Star Fox Zero) I never thought financial success was a reasonably key factor seeing fans pleaded with Nintendo for a return to form and panned the modern Paper Mario games excluding the upcoming remake which I’m definitely hyped for. (Then again hardcore fans are fairly different from the main public, but the sales still never crossed my mind.)
@@Master-Fawful958 Thats the problem with big companies, sales are a big factor to the fate of franchises.
For example Fire Emblem Awakening was originally the last game period due to poor sales in the past. Thankfully the series is saved solely because of the success of Awakening.
And do you think we Zelda fans never had anything to complain about? How many times did decisions get a backlash?? Miyamoto himself heard the unfortunate experiences from some of those decisions, regreted them, and changed course, every time. And if those decisions for Paper Mario aren't working, then either you are as unified as Zelda fans, or don't expect any changes. Since you're actually a very vocal niche, Nintendo and Miyamoto have zero reason to change any course, and he's not the one to blame, and especially not disrespect.
And I'll say one last thing: Disrespecting him is EXACTLY why I don't join in and add my voice to the cause. I actually agree with the gripe. It's this stinking group of fans I enormously detest. You all handle this POORLY. I hope Paper Mario stays how it is just to spite you and your sect. Congrats on rallying us to your cause.
Well, Thousand Year Door just returned, so I guess we had an impact 🤷🏻♂️
Dude Miyamoto is GOD
No he is not. totk is another example of a crappy narrative. Watch the video, my guy
@@clonetrooper2003 suck my balls, u're talking about the game of the year dude
@@13cloudstrife13 ouch, toxic are we?
@@clonetrooper2003 The reason is that Miyamoto was taught by the late Gunpei Yokoi, who was known for innovation and toys. Due to his tragic death, Miyamoto feels that he must become the next Yokoi by any means necessary. So Miyamoto focus in games is innovation rather than story.
@@orangeslash1667 if what you are saying is true, then plz provide a source. If it is, this is what i have to say
I understand that the people of japan are incredibly reserved. They are not prone to talking about their feelings as a result. I understand Miyamoto probably has not gotten over his friend’s death. For this, I don’t think I can blame him for. However, it is what he is doing to cope that makes me ANGRY. I get he wants to be like his friend to honor him. However, he can’t apply his friend’s strategy to the gaming genre, ehich is a medium for storytelling unlike toys. Not only is he directly robbing Nintendo of its storytelling potential, but is actively doing it to the point where he is toxically micromanaging his own employees. Remember the subtle story of super Mario galaxy 1? The only reason it was that way was because koizumi was FORCED to hide it in the game from miyamoto. Eventually the dude found out and made sure smg2 was as bland and storyless as possible. And now miyamoto is doing the same thing to movies. By suppressing his human emotions, he is destroying the humanity of art itself. I do NOT hate him. I think he gets all the criticism from nintendo fans he deserves. I will always respect him as the creator of mario and zelda. But, eh is clearly a bad influence on this franchise in terms of its artistic potential. It has become clear to me that eiji aonuma (or as i like to call him, the hack with the glasses) has embraced his way of putting storytelling last since after botw. TOTK’s story was a fundamental disaster that nearly destroyed BOTW’s story as whole with its plotholes, terrible new characters, unacceptable retcons of both ZELINK & the zonai’s connection to the red haired tribe, and ending that ruined the game’s themes. Plz miyamoto, do better