@@mrwannabe00character design is also a negative part. Most characters look disgusting, there is nothing special or appealing in their outfits. Every single character is just girl with absurdly big parts of the body, which wears clothes that have absolutely no logic and idea behind it. Just a piece of meat.
They need to make better erudition units, it’s as simple as that. Jing yuan isn’t even that bad but something about the entire erudition path feels off.
@@pheonixryu6167The only destruction five star that is sp positive/neutral is Clara. Lunae certainly isn’t either of those then Blade and Jingliu AREN’T either of those either because they never regenerate any sp, they’re sp negative especially Jingliu needing two (or one if you used technique) to get to her state but she never regenerates sp.
@@wage942 true, but comparative to erudition and hunt they come out ahead in order to deal damage, barring IL. Basically it's a lot easier to have sp for other things compared to the other damage dealers who constantly have to spam skill just to keep up for clarity
In theory Destruction characters are supposed to be bruisers, but I think Hoyo kind of forgot about that fact. Since Lunae and Jingliu have the power of Hunt units along with the AoE potential of Erudition it's not surprising that it feels like Destruction is overpowering the other paths. Especially Erudition, it kind of feels like they've completely lost their identity already.
yes but we have fuxuan who is a tank and heals, we have huohuo who heals and increases atk and gives energy, luocha with his eidolons reduces resistance so every path lost their identity
@@rozee8516 Agreed, especially with that last bit about erudition buffs. But in particular, I think it'd be good for erudition characters to have self buffing capability that allow them to ramp up, a bit like Jing Yuan, but less restrictive. Right now Herta is my favorite character to play just because it's fun building up and maintaining all the self buffs she gets (both from her own kit and the 4 piece Glacial Forest set) Giving the player more to focus on than just damage, even when that thing is getting more damage, makes units way more fun IMHO
I agree. I also feel like devs abandoned the initial definition of Destructions characters being the bruiser class. Nowadays, I feel they redefined it as the class that sacrifices resources for more power like how IL consumes a lot of SP and Jing Lui consumes team's HP.
I think that hoyo tried making destruction high reward high risk, by eating up hp(or skill points) to make the rotation more harder because if you don't do it right the damege will fall (and your character with it) the only reason why it isn't much of a problem is because we have great supports
The risk is just too small when comparing to what they got - jingliu : dmg boost by sacrificing mere 5% of team health ? Anyone with proper sustainer wont feel anything. - DHIL : 3 SP for huge dmg multiplier is fine, but dont give free sp on his ult. Or free sp on his ult but make it cost 4 sp. - blade : i think he's the most balanced out of three, but still i think they need to reduce his spd by about 3-5 for the sake of his high survivability.
one idea would be to add a buff to each class that all units of that class share. for example, erudition units deal more dmg the more enemies there are, hunt units deal more damage the less enemies there are, and destruction units deal more damage the lower they are. that way each class is better for a certain type of combat
Thats a rlly good idea. I never really git the difference between destruction and the other dmg classes. Especially since qq is literally just a destruction char and arlan is kind of a hunt.
About Hunt and Erudition, they do have that, buts its locked behind lightcones. "Only Silence Remains" ( 4 star) increases your Crit Rate if there are 2 or fewer enemies on field. "Meteor Swarm" (5 star) increases your atk for every enemy *on field*. Do you see the problem? In theory, for every Erudition character to be good, they would all need "Meteor Swarm", but that's a 5 star lightcone and even then they would become weaker when there are less enemies. Every Hunt character would need "Only Silence Remains" AND a very good set of relics. The amount of RNG and investement you have to do is high compared to Destruction, which has a very versatile set of lightcones and are easier to build among the three. I really doubt Hoyoverse would try to fix the classes, but rather sell the solution as lightcones and/or power creep
@@erleinmayer7498 yeah locking fundamental class buffs behind rng or paywalls is definitely something i very much dislike about star rail, and even then the exclusive 5* destruction lcs still give insane buffs
But not all Destruction characters have HP manipulating mechanics, like we see for Imbibitor or Clara. This is also a problem in the Simulated Universe, where they had to create a new Path that revolves around skill point usage. But creating new paths for every new gameplay niche would also be a bit of a problem.
I do want to point out that the problem with destruction was apparent to anyone who had Clara in 1.0, if you had her E1 she was better than any Erudition character at thier job with a better element and still had all of her counter damage.
Yeah Clara’s E having full field coverage is already generous for a destruction character. A permanent 2-hit buff that basically double your damage is just gratuitous lol (not complaining though I have her E3S1 and she’s so fun to use)
A thing not discussed in this video but I think bears bringing up for Erudition characters in general: not only did Mhy not give the Erudition cast solid numbers (Qingque as a half-exception), they also hamstrung them with their light cone options. The only "accessible" five star, Night On The Milky Way, actively gets *worse* in most boss fights, since the more enemies you kill, the further the buff drops off, making your Erudition wave-clearer's power nadir even more painful. The f2p four star options are a complete tossup- Make The World Clamor only affects ultimate damage, Birth of The Self only buffs followup attacks, and while Genius' Repose gives a ton of crit damage, it's sort of a side grade to The Seriousness of Breakfast, which is the only universally solid Erudition light cone. Hunt characters have the same amount of 4 star options, but their options are considerably less niche: Swordplay gives stacking damage% as long as you're hitting the same enemy, Subscribe For More gives damage% on your basics and skills, even River Flows In Spring's conditional buff is universal and reliable for hunt characters due to their decreased threat level. But none of those really matter for the average player, because they have a fantastic, totally free option in Cruising In The Stellar Sea. If you only have one Hunt carry you're building, you can kind of ignore the gacha entirely and have a fully imposed CITSS in a few weeks from the jump. Destruction characters? Destruction characters have it even *better*. Something Irreplacable gives a ton of free stats and survivability while utilizing Destruction's increased threat level, and On The Fall Of An Aeon is a pretty equivalent giant stat-stick that's entirely free to play accessible. A Secret Vow is one of the most universally useful four start light cones in the game, and even the less stellar four stars like Nowhere To Run, The Moles Welcome You and Under The Blue Sky are considerably less niche than the entire four star roster for Erudition. It boggles my mind that they prioritized adding a Nihility light cone to the Herta Shop over Erudition when Nihility already has some of the best 4 star options *and* they had already had entries for the two other primary damage paths in there.
Nihility ALSO got the first (and so far only?) event 4* LC in Before the Tutorial Mission Starts, which basically breaks Pela wide open, making the addition of a 5* Herta LC even more baffling.
@@Uryvichkthey want to boost kafka sale. BUT YEAH I DO AGREE THAT ERUDITION NEED RECOGNITION. Its a shame that my favorite class is outclassed by so many character that i dont wish, simply because they have different class than what i like. Even more so, ive been waiting for jingyuan rerun so that i could get his signature lightcone for my qinque, but i dont think its anywhere soon since his banner dont sell that well compared to others
I think Night On The Milky Way should increase it’s buff based on the number of enemies defeated (up to prob 5x) not currently on the field It would make it better against bosses since they like to spawn mobs, and still vibes with the Erudition path If not that, AT LEAST have the buff be based on the number of enemies that STARTED in the field, and not CURRENTLY on field. So if the fight started with 5 mobs, you get the max bonus for the entire fight, which would also help Erudition against boss fights with 2 or more waves
my prediction is as the game progress, classes in the game will be blurred with unit overlapping each other. we already see it with Fu Xuan and HuoHuo where defence type class (Preservation & Abudance) giving buff to teammate
The main problem here is that characters element or path plays almost no role. It would be much more complexe and leave much more room for characters gameplay design, if game had some sort of elemental interaction, like in Genshin. Enemies affected with Ice would receive more damage from next Fire attack and so on.
@@legithuman5486 Serval plays like a Nihility character, Qingque is just straight up Quantum Imbibitor Lunae, and Bailu has Preservation traits and some Harmony traits with Eidolons. Launch characters generally are more in line with their Path's descriptions but there was also still a fair bit of line blurring going on
@@shinidragon7775 Dan Heng and Sushang have a bit of Nihility in each of em as well. Dan has slows, while Sushang has huge incentives to build break effect because of her E4 and high break efficiency. Let's not forget that Seele was considered an aoe character by many, and Jing Yuan's LL is much stronger against a single target.
The fact that Destruction characters sometimes have eidolons that focuses their damage on a single target further makes me think Hoyo is playing favorites
They are playing a game where you need the newest characters otherwise you can't clear difficult things easily now. When the game came out everyone was focused on the paths not knowing destruction would literally be all the dps paths combined in one.... like why do you still have hunt and erudition paths if you have destruction???
Good video. All I want to add is I think the real draw of hunt units isn't so much single target damage, but single target damage PLUS their ability to cheat the turn limit. This is why Dan Heng original and yanqing aren't standing the test of time as well next to extra turn Seele, self advance Sushang and "I get two turns minimum every round plus an ultimate that gives me another 2" Topaz. Or at the very least I'm hoping that's how it's gonna go. We'll see when L+Ratio comes out, but I think that would be the most interesting thing that could be done with Hunt characters.
judging by what we know of the upcoming 5* Hunts the "I go again bitches" mechanic seems to be their forte, both Mei and Yae's expy for Star Rail are said to be Hunt units (lightning and ice respectively) and both of them has Seele's extra turn mechanic tied to different things in their kit
@@darylewalker6862 Yeah, Serval and pre-E4 Qingque are the only two without follow up attacks. In theory Erudition could be self buffers, like Jing Yuan and what Dreamy does with Herta, but they do need an extra thing besides AOE IMHO
atleast Dan heng has a action advance similar to seele in his eidolons though only in the ult but yanqing I'd argue that his followup mechanic is kind of makes up for it giving a chance every now and then to do an extra half skill worth of damage and having a chance to freeze and delay the enemies turn further giving himself more turns over the enemy
@@ben9003 Yanqing also does what the three last destruction characters did and just get a lot of crit in his kit naturally, but they balanced it way too much where taking any damage negates it which is a pain. Still a good unit, tho. If we're talking casually, I don't think there's a single bad unit in the game yet, just ones more frustrating to play *side eyes Arlan*
This is just like when yomiya released "oh no she can only deal single target dmg". A year later and the abyss was filled with single target bosses. Its very likely that content favoring hunt and erudition will come over time.
I’m not so sure about Erudition tbh. Unless they raise the cap on the number of enemies that can take the field, blast attacks are usually more than sufficient for taking care of 1-2 bosses and 3-4 minions. Hunt definitely has potential though
@@kairos-049Very true. Even in 5 enemy scenarios, more often than not the two enemies at the side are not important, so blast attacks being able to still deal good damage on single target makes them way better than full AoE.
and 2 year laters, there are still many dps who can both deal great single-target dmg and AoE dmg (Alhaitham, Ayaka, even Nilou ffs). I have Yoimiya, never uses her.
In words of Dr. Zajef, In Genshin, there are more dimensions for characters to be worth pulling for- easy of play, gameplay design, Animations in overworld - with exploration being a much bigger part etc. But in a turn based game like honkai, powercreep would be much faster as characters would has less dimensions to be worth pulling for.
Its a bit concerning star rail's meta has already shiftet a lot from hunt to destruction, genshin needed 1-2 years to shift from hypercarrys to reaction spam
In words of Dr. Zajef, In genshin, there are more dimensions for characters to be worth pulling for. Animations, easy of play, exploration being a much bigger part etc. But in a turn based game like honkai, powercreep is inevitable as characters would need to do much more to be worth pulling for.
@@xenoemblem7 star rail is different from genshin. In genshin a bad team can be offset by player skill, in star rail a bad team is a bad team. Rpg gatchas suffer from this quite heavily which is why experience players always tell new players to ALWAYS get one meta support and then play how they want, because it will make their lives a lot easier, a meta support can make even the worst teams viable. What gatcha games usually try to do is hit the golden triangle, a mix of op, great design and story significance, this creates a situation were they can make a character not to op but still have high sales, or they can make them meta defining, in fgo a meta defining character is caster artoria or merlin who are cool played big roles in the story and are op, less op but beloved characters muramas, arc and the kama's not meta defining but still pretty good. 3rd impact had the Hersherrs which defined several metas until they become older and more available to the average player with newer weapons to make them meta relevant but not meta defining, genshin has the Archons and to a lesser extent the harbingers, I expect Childe and Venti to get new weapons to push them up the meta. Star rail sadly doesn't have that group except maybe the stellaron hunters so now the only way to drive up sales is with op characters
"A jack of all trades is a master of none, but often times better than a master of one." This sums up Destruction well. Because they are general DPS, their application and ability to be the central to any team outshines the specialized Hunt and Erudition. Especially so when their Eidolons strengthen their shortcomings. This is only made more apparent because Destruction has a higher HP as well so they aren't a much glass cannons.
@@techtutorial9050 i wouldn't say that. At least not in e0. They are certainly less effective at AoE than Erudition bit i do see the argument when comparing them to Hunt.
It's not just a Destruction doing better than Hunt or Erudition thing, it's been less than a year and already characters are doing things outside their class designation Fu Xuan is the most egregious example, as while protecting her team as a Preservation, she also buffs their HP and heals them like an Abundance, while buffing Crit Rate (and later Crit Damage at E1) like Harmony There is fair reason to run Hunt, but there's almost zero reason to run Erudition ... Hoyoverse wants Himeko dead so much that they already killed her whole class XD
Blade I was understanding of cause he fits the self sacrificing /self destructive bruiser play style while the only thing lunae destroys is your skill points at lower eidolons. Jing Liu goes against that self destructive play style and actively damages your team if they re-released her as hunt or erudition nobody would be able to tell. Oh and another thing, damn the last three were edgy I guess it is to balance the personalities of the destruction class with three cheerful/playful characters and three edgy characters.
@@darylewalker6862 give hook a few more years before she turns into the Jarilo version of genghis Khan and decides to expand the Mole empire into the stars. Also Clara has warcrime daddy and Arlan is short of getting the Yanqing treatment before become a war criminal
Blade is imo the book definition of destruction class to a T. Dude is the bruiser/berserker Ive always loved in games and the reason I was interested in destruction even way back when it was the weakest path.
Actually, Jingyuan is the best Erudition character since the less the enemies there are, the better the spread of the damage of Lightning Lord. If, for example, there is only one boss left, all of the damage stacks of LL is poured to it instead of spreading it. So, in case of JY, his damage output (particularly LL) is consistent whethere there be more enemies or one.
it wouldve been better if LL just hits everything equally with how restrictive its already is. his E dmg is also so low so its actually feel shit to use on single target
Jing yuan is better at killing 3 enemies than 5 or 3 enemies which makes him at the weird spot lmao. As a Jing yuan main he legit sucks at 5 enemy AOE.
Main reason Destruction is dominating is that the enemy lineup caters to it to sell the last 3 Destruction DPS in a row. It would be quite easy to generate anti-Destruction meta by shifting the enemies in MOC. For instance, 5 enemies all of which are high priority, otherwise they do something bad. Erudition would be able to hit all of them to keep them all at bay, Destruction not so much. Or 2 enemies, but one of them you don't want to hit right now otherwise they counter and oneshot your team. Hunt would be able to isolate, Destruction would be forced to eat it.
Erudition multipliers are awful as proven by the Trotter spam MoC. The latter scenario still favors Destruction unless the enemies can oneshot even a max buff Clara + Fu Xuan
Another thing with most destruction units is that they self sabotage to deal more damage, like Blade, Jingliu, Dan Heng² or even Arlan, which is a really cool idea, playing with fire to win faster. The problem is that the cost isn't as high as the reward, and can be easily nullified by having a good team. Or Luocha. Especially Luocha. Bro heals automatically and farm skill points like a mumbo jumbo Minecraft farm Maybe keeping the destruction damage that high but making them riskier to use is a good way to go ?
My only complaint for these characters is just how easy and low-risk high-reward their kits are. If you are gonna throw in a character that has a potential to steam roll at least make it so that there are some actual conditions to fulfill or risks to consider that justifies the absurd damage output.
@@josephoyek6574I hate that I know who exactly they're talking about... It's that certain distinguished mechanical gentleman, but called with a punny name.
It's funny because when the game first came out, the description for destro path was "Deals outstanding amounts of damage and possesses great survivability. Suitable for various combat scenarios." At that time, I was thinking "why would you ever not take the best tools for any job? hunt does single-target better, erudition does aoe better, preservation does tanking better." It didn't help that our first destro character, MC, is exactly that kind of generalist bruiser character that is outclassed in every category. I think someone at Hoyoverse saw that, and they ended up swapping the "trade HP for damage" destruction sub-theme in place of the original bruiser conceptualization. Which is good, in theory. It does give the path an actually unique identity, albeit a totally different one from the one we thought we were getting. The issue is that this is fundamentally a game of attrition, which means that every team is going to have someone providing sustain. This mitigates (or outright eliminates) the HP trade-off to the point where it's *always* worth it. I don't think we need (or want) destro to go back to being the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, we just need to push destro closer to the edge where that trade-off is sometimes not worth it. That could be by changing the amount of HP destro characters have to pay or, since Hoyoverse won't retroactively nerf released characters, create content that limits or punishes you for healing. Or better yet, just buff hunt and erudition by leaning into their own subthemes, speed and turn manipulation and follow-up attacks respectively.
I think Topaz was mainly put in the game to Fix Jingyuan's and Clara's main issue. With her buff Jingyuan can consistently deal a lot single target damage, same with Clara and unlike them who attack sparingly, Numby has like 3 turns every cycle and can break toughness bars easily.
Yeah also the new follow-up relic set in 1.5 is massively overtuned for Topaz & Jingyuan. Feel they are doing some patchystuff,but the fundamental issue is they are tuning destruction single target damage the same or above hunt characters single target damage. They should be at like 80% of hunt not the same or higher.
@@lancer9257 True but atleast its better than them being powercrept by the next shiny thing + hybrid carries like Kafka and Topaz will deal more and more damage the more characters with their niches exist, so in a way, while not staying the best, it'll help them stay relevant.
My thought was that hunt and erudition were designed to complement each other so you'd play both in one team. While destruction is more like a mix of both to be used by themselves
Starchasm Nyx getting crept in one patch by FR priarm lol (or zero if you consider obvilion down Hawk of the Fog) Carole getting crept by Griseo in 4 patches can't remember more
@@tencive5749 yes it happens occasionally but with HI3 being their first big game when half of this happened and the length of the games lifespan it really doesn't happen as much as ppl say it does, they defo have learned by having senti and Horb in the same meta, even carole has a niche she's best at (ss/low hp bosses with a big shield). Also i literally main delta and can maintain redlotus most of the time, unless ur a giga whale u can use most chars to great success if they came out within the last 4 years.
@@tencive5749 nyx was still best ice DPS until SW and FR was just easier and cheaper alternative as nyx was released as most gear dependent valk but nyx still had most of best quantum score especially if you are in nirvana than FR really failed to compete Nyx
Multi limb bosses sharing a single.health pool would be awesome. The extra limbs just needs to have break gauges as their form of hp to disable them when broken
Honestly I think a bonus thing that affects all limited DPS (besides the saturation of destruction vs other paths so most content us geared towards destruction atm) is the lack of good lightcones and how certain relic sets also suck for said characters. Like kit design and multipliers are definitely important, but I feel like it's an extra low blow when you try building JY only to get 4pc lightning set and s5 seriousness of breakfast because it's the best available atm, like it's kinda funny how ass some lc and relics are and you're better aiming for 2pc sets because there's nothing better in the game lmao
Erudition is meant to be aoe, but of the five current ones, only Herta actually attacks everyone. Qingque's enhanced basic does blast damage, Serval and Himeko's skills are blast, and Jing Yuan's Lightning Lord functions as a blast attack. Herta is the only one who attacks all enemies with all of her abilities (minus her basic attack of course). Which means that destruction characters can do almost as much aoe as erudition. Why take the wave clearing characters when the bruisers functionally do the same thing with better damage? Hopefully, we'll either get bosses that frequently fill the field or more erudition characters to balance the game out.
OK but if we're gonna be fair, Jing Yuan also attacks all enemies with both his Skill and Ultimate. While Herta's the only one who exclusively attacks everyone, I think JY's setup is sufficiently AoE-focused to count (and the LL being able to focus fire on single targets ultimately helps him sort of compete with more focused damage dealers, so I'd call it a positive).
I wish Erudition characters at E0 could just use their Basics which should have been AOE from the start. Game's battle system is limited by "Skillpoints" and not bound by "Turn Cooldowns" when using Skills or Bursts.
@@Static-EN-He's bad. Or at least not good. His numbers are pretty low across the board. Also his entire gimmick being a half ult isn't good. No energy refund, no decent damage. Just... meh
i mean genshin kinda did the power creep thing at the beginning with diluc then xiao then ganyu then hu tao, all being better than the last each patch, and also swords tend to be the best (bennet , xingqiu, kazuha, ayaka, al haitham, nilou, and maybe furina soon)
1.0 Diluc 1.2 Ganyu 1.3 (Xiao) & HuTao Id say the next power creep happened in 4.1 Neuvilette There were a lot of powerful character between 1.3-4.1, but they were comparable to the bar HuTao set. Granted, I don't know about power creep with C6 R5 whales.
Tbh those are the only real big damage dealers in Genshin apart from recently released Neuvillete most of other ones rely on reaction spam rather then doing damage themselves.
@@kirin1230Yea, I feel like they want to make more long term money and avoid too much long term power creep in SR than HI3. They've done it enough times already they can tweak it better.
The damage scaling suppose to in the order : HUNT > Destruction > erodition. And draw back of specific path suppose to be hunt : lack versatility, destruction : speed, erodition : single target DMG. Since MoC don't have path restriction you can just brute force all the way upto 10 just by using meta destruction characters with SW.
I feel like this is routed in a similar problem of Genshin: Character cost. Specifically, the cost of building a viable unit. Unit costs are so high that it's much more efficient to focus on 2-3 dps units and the rest of their teams. Mihoyo knows this and tries to balance the game around this. Meaning that 3 enemies or 1 boss with adds is most easily cleared by all classes. If it was 5 enemies, Hunt would suffer immensly and if it was a single boss, erudition would suck. So they settled for the middle of the road because that would be the most enjoyable content for all different classes. If I happen to only like Hunt, I'll dread any aoe. And it's not like I can just raise an Erudition on the drop of a hat.
One reason I like hunt characters is because of their ability (in theory) to uniquely take down priority targets rapidly. I think the example of the exploding beetles in swarm disaster is a good idea in that direction. I really appreciate having the option to focus them down with Sushang before they explode. I do agree with your concern, but Chicken Girl is going to be on my team regardless.
And you know what's extra funny is that Qinqgque, the best Erudition character, is primarily a BLAST attacker unlike her class mates. She's really the odd one out in Erudition.
(Original comment was about a spelling mistake) Pretty interesting video, I don't even play Star Rail that much, but it's always fun watching these kinds of discussion topics.
If you see it from a different point of view Destruction characters have the perfrect balance of damage. On the hand tho you can say that they're made to be balanced alone. So if you add up general supports like Bronya and Tingyun (ig harmony overall) they're broken Meanwhile Hunt and Erudition, being specialised in st/aoe, they need synergy with a team to shine. Perfect example for now is mono quantum: Seele: Hunt, specialised in st Silver Wolf: Nihility, core if the team allowing Seele to hit harder + making the team universal in pretty much all content Fu Xuan: Preservation, keeps the team alive while being a great thoughness breaker and brings slight support for the team Qingque: Erudition, while Lynx is better for safety measures if you add Qingque you have the main dps prioritising the boss and the sub-dps priotising the mobs Sorry for long text but my poiny being that maybe in a few patches we'll get a solid team that has Jing Yuan/Argenti as main dos whild the rest of a team have a role as well. Cause if you look at Destruction teams rn they pretty much follow the generic formula of harmony/nihility for more damage, L U O C H A, and pretty much a free slot for another harmony/nihility since Destruction doesn't need synergy to kick *ss
I would argue they don't have 'the perfect balance' the issue fundamentally is that destruction single target matches hunts. There will never be a purpose to hunt unless their damage numbers are higher than destructions. DPS unfortunately are always the easiest to powercreep because more number = better assuming there aren't any double edge sword mechanics to make using the character difficult. I think there are ways to fix it but as long as Mihoyo thinks destruction single target should match hunt, hunt will always be playing second fiddle until they release a super overtuned hunt character that deals 2x single target minimum of a destruction character.
This is exactly whats wrong imo. Their "2 character per 1 patch" system makes a character that's very niche not very favourable unless theyre completing an already available niche (like topaz). A generalist will always be better than a specialist, but specialist is special in the way that, with the right synergy, they can outshine other chars. If that synergy is locked behind a 2 month wait (probably even more) than it definitely makes them seem weak. I know that character design is hard, im just stating my opinion.
Mono-quantum is a giant scam. At least until the Quantum 5* Harmony drops. Seele is quite honestly the only Hunt to not care about Mobs--she frequently prefers having them over not simply because they allow her to get the 80% Dmg boost+20% Quantum Pen free turn that made her so broken in the first place. FX doesn't need a 2nd Sustain, and having two SP-hungry dps with only semi-positive supports means you'll run out of SP. The 4th slot is always better with a Harmony that matches weakness to the main enemy you want to murder, since SW prioritizes applying weaknesses that the enemy doesn't have, and a harmony boosted Seele is better than having two unboosted DPS.
@@anristellariza9036 mono quantum isn't a scam, it's a jack of all trades master of none. And only thanks to SW allowing the team to work everywhere (except the new quantum resistany bug i guess) Although rn mono quantum isn't one of the best teams, it's still the most confort one imo. And yeah... once quantum gets a harmony Seele finna cook (or a future 5* quantum dps)
0:17 In HI3, units get crept every patch, as the new unit usually replaces an old unit due to overlapping roles. Some 5*s ended up dying in one or even zero patches (Red Seele/Starchasm Nyx)
In Honkai impact, characters don't powercreep every patch since it's a game that by nature requires diverse roster due to weather system and their haven't been a consecutive release of valks covering similar role in a game since HoV release. NYX had the shortest top DPS status in game history but she was released in 4.8 as best ice and quantum dps and her alternative ice dps SW was released in 5.4 which is 8 months later and Vill V as alternative quantum dps released in 5.9 which was over a year later that is longer than HSR entire lifetime. It's just HoR and FR were still good enough and wasn't as gear dependent as nyx so people were willing to skip Nyx
Technically that's true but not entirely, for example hersher of flameceon came out in 5.0 and the closest thing to powercreep her has been Hersher of finality and she is not used outside of the trio team or sirin in 6.9 who needs like a year of farming to get to Hof's baseline. Another example is hersher of human ego who came out 9 patches ago and is still the undisputed best ice dps, with supports as well look at celestial hymn and azure empyrea who were meta top tiers for years before they got power crept. Ultimately yes there are some niche cases where a unit get power crept soon after release but that doesn't really happen anymore, even chars who do the same thing coexist in the meta like hersher of sentience getting a revival in the meta and being viable with hersher of rebirth.
some characters like fischl, pardo, eden, and HoF have been meta for years. characters like senti was meta for a very long time, even before her new divine key. the biggest problem is that all 3 characters on a team absolutely need full gearing. it takes new players a long time to full gear and compete.
The main problem i've noticed with characters is there are too many. Every patch gives 2 brand new units to pull. Its hard enough to pull all the ones I want but also don't have the RSS to build 2 or 3 per patch. A full rerun patch would be nice
we're still at the beginning of the game, give it some time unless you want seele to get the ayaka treatment with the 240 days banner or however long it was
@@ZenganTheFool what do you mean? You are not bound to rerun a single character at a time like Genshin lol. You can have a patch with 8 rerun characters if you wanted(2 banners at the same time * 10 days * 4 = 40 days patch), what stops you? The guy wants to pull the character he wants but didn't have the opportunity in the past. Solution: announce the rerun patch in advance and save a little bit for the character you like.
@@twothreeoneoneseventwoonefour5 they already announce those, it's what the special program is for, if you can't hold your stellar jades for more than one patch that sounds like a you problem, not a hoyoverse problem
@@ZenganTheFool again what are you talking about? The guy said that they release too much characters and he wants some reruns to slow the pace a little bit. What are you talking about?
That would be so good for hunt. They could also release a nihility anti-Fu Xuan who makes one enemy receive some damage scaling on what all the enemies took collectively, which would be the erudition version.
You mentioned that Erudition characters could use a way to condense their AoE damage in single target scenarios, Jing Yuan does exactly that (Lightning Lord) and it's not always enough and in worst cases, actively hurts you because the spread of the attacks with several enemies is random.
I think hunt is fine, mostly thanks to the higher speeds. Topass compliments Clara really well by leaning into her biggest weakness, and Seele is Seele. Erudition, tho? Yeah, this path probably needs a buff (maybe make their basics have blast damage?)
Erudition is the easiest to strengthen, you just have to see Qingque to realize that. The problem with the promotional Erudition characters in the game is that they are too slow. Jing Yuan and Argenti both focus on delivering a huge hit and this cannot compete with the attack pace that destruction characters use. Himeko is an agglutination of all the mechanics that Erudition has but without specializing in any of them and she is mainly a secondary damage dealer. We have to keep our eye on Tornillum, supposedly after Argenti he will be the next character of Erudition. If we take into account that now he is the closest thing to a leader that the circle of geniuses has and that he is also an emanator of Erudition by necessity and lore, he has to be a very strong character.
Honkai Star Rail Paths in a Nutshell: Destruction: Kill Everything The Hunt: One Enemy at a time Erudition: Two or Three Enemies at a time Harmony: Buffs Friends Nihility: Debuffs Enemies Preservation: Defense Abundance: Healer
@@airleamystery4788 Funny part that other than Himeko and Herta. Other Erudition like QQ and Jing yuan (and soon Agenti) are very strong against fewer enemies.
Just happened to click on your video since I recently got into star rail and just realized whose video I was watching! I used to watch your maplestory content a ton back in the day, glad to see that you're still doing your thing!
They should make more characters like Qingque, who can dynamically distributes resources depending on the situtation during the fight. I think qingque is one of the best design in the game. When situation is in flavor of multi-targeted, you can dump all of SP to her and get strong AOE dmg. When only single target remain, she still has strong AA dmg and quantum break debuff.
To be honest, if you have Fu Xuan you can perfectly use Arlan and keep him at his maximum potential. He doesn't have the damage he had in the beta but he's still a zero cost and that's always something to keep in mind.
Smart and enjoyable analysis. Seems like you wrote a script and actually took the time to piece a good video together. So many creators just read skill descriptions, shoot off of the hip and call it content. This seems both more deep and wide than that. Keep it up friend.
Whenever this topic is mention I always say 3 things: 1. Characters are mostly balanced, and work as intended. 2. The reason why Destruction characters are the best is that current end game content is just something that you want to use Blast damage to deal with, and it will change once we get encounters that want single target or AoE damage. 3. Destruction needs to remain the best at dealing with content that wants Blast damage, otherwise we end up in a situation where the path is pointless in end game. Now that I got that out of the way, I also want to mention few other things: - Current Destruction meta is also a result of not having any limited 5* Harmony characters, so Bronya barely has any competition, and due to how strong she is, she ends up boosting the value of other characters depending on how well she works with them, and Destruction characters usually work the best with her mechanics, so this should be reduced once we start getting alternatives. -We are still in early stages of the game, and characters that are released now are mostly generalists, that don't really focus too much on something, which is kinda the description of Destruction, but as time will go we will see more and more specialists like Topaz. -For some reason people don't understand that what the game is telling you about paths is a short oversimplification, that is meant to give you a good idea of what a path usually ends up doing, but that description isn't what characters are designed around, so to give an example: Erudition is apath of the mage characters, that have big damage nukes, usually requiring somewhat specific conditions to trigger them, and the fact that they are AoE is merely a way to keep it balanced. Also they completely miss the fact that it is what they exceed at, and not the only thing that they are allowed to do (in that world we would only have like 3 unique characters for each one of the support paths).
1. Characters are not balanced in the slightest and any notion that they are is just willful ignorance or plain naivety. Erudition path is massively underperforming besides one character, the being Qingque but that's because she doesn't follow the same style of play other Erudition units do. Imbibitor Lunae trivializes everything in the game (be it in burst, aoe or single target content) because of his insane damage potential and the fact they made his E2 completely nullify any risk there is with him. Not to mention that Swarm Disaster was perfectly made with DHIL in mind considering how the new path works and how there are more Imaginary weak enemies to be found than others, especially in the last boss which is by far the hardest part of higher world levels. Luocha also massively overshadows Bailu, Lynx and Natasha in terms of raw strength and healing capabilities. There's a big powercreep happening where newer units just make old ones obsolete, and this is not balance. 2. I would argue Destruction units are currently the strongest because they just have the most options for light cones that don't require niche situations or get progressively weaker as the battle goes on. They also receive massive stat boosts that other paths don't get either on their cones or in their kits (Jingliu crit and DHIL crit rate and damage buff) or they get insane damage scalings from their attack. 3. The power of Destruction units goes far beyond just burst content. They're single target powerhouses with a touch of aoe which makes them just function like they're just better Hunt units while making them just do more damage overall than Erudition. This makes them overshadow Hunt and Erudtion units which is the result of Destruction units just not being balanced. Not to mention they're purposefully powercreeping Destruction over other paths with the game modes like Swarm Disaster. We need the current Erudition and Hunt units to keep up with the raw power of the Destruction units because as it stands Destruction is just way too strong of a path.
@@lucyc776 This is blatantly wrong. The MoC turn cycle counts of all limited characters are extremely close to each other. This is not a hard game - any limited DPS can trivialize everything in the game if they're built enough. Jingliu and IL seem OP because they overperform at low investment. I have a highly invested Seele and she's better than IL on my account overall. It really just comes down to investment
@@lucyc776 Wow, I have never seen someone that wrong. 1. Erudition characters are balanced, what they are lacking is end game content that wants AoE damage. I found it funny that you feel like you need to mention E2 of a limited 5* to prove your point. Swarm Disaster is designed with DHIL in mind, that is true, but I fail to see what it has to do with the point. Main reason why many people consider Luocha to be the best healer is that he heals a lot without having to use skill points, and is easiest to use,but outside of that other healers are actually much more useful than he is. 2. That is just a wrong, Destruction LC are generally the worst and most conditional ones in game, and characters are just balanced around that. 3. You just described Blast, and characters on other paths have similar if not better multipliers, and that is even without mentioning access to better LC's, and getting more value from buffs.
DHIL spends 3 SP and Jingliu needs to transform, they *should* do more damage than Seele. Comments like this just make me realize the people complaining about the Destruction meta is mostly just Seele mains.
@@exu7325 DHIL may need to spend 3SP and jingliu may need to transform but they also do 50% dmg to adjacent enemy WHILE still dealing more damage to the main target So no, they shouldn't be able to do more damage than a characters fully focused on single target And not to mention that DHIL and Jingliu ult make the "cost" more manageable
In theory, Erudition was supposed to shine in Swarm Disaster because of the constant spawning of mobs and how it rewards you by popping them off but nope, Destruction still reigns supreme in that mode with their mix of Blast and AoE attacks with solid tankiness to boot.
I don't believe the gimmick of Destruction characters are blast damage as it is also something very common in Erudition characters and even some Nihility ones. I think Destruction's idea was to destroy something to get high damage, Jingliu costs her teammates HP, Blade and Arlan use their own HP, DHIL destroys skill points, Clara wants to get hit, and TB passive requires them to get hit too (Hook and Xueyi kinda prove me wrong though, but it's still generally true). The real issue is, the cost is often negligible compared to the damage or the character offset it in some way (Blade's FUA, Clara's DMG reduction or DHIL ult giving him bonus SP) making the risk null, especially once paired with the various supports of the game. But if the cost is too steep, like with Arlan, nobody will play them. Destruction characters walk a thin line where they are either too strong despite their cost or too weak to justify it (still Hook and Xueyi excluded as they have no real cost and honestly don't feel like destruction to me because of that, especially Hook).
On the note of elements, the main difference between them would be their break effects, different levels of damage over time or supportive capabilities. The big deal with Destruction is that it sacrifices some type of resource to be incredibly safe. It's simple in gameplay, capable of blowing through anything in the game, but you could find yourself in a tough spot for distributing your resources wrong in longer fights. I feel this can be very apparent in the recent Simulated Universe event's endurance fights, where JingLiu and Blade might get someone on the team killed entering the next wave while Dan Heng Blows through skill points too much to handle everything. In my opinion, it's too early in the game's lifespan to say it's that big of a problem, considering just about everything can be beaten with a proper build around most units in the game
The issue is...there aren't any real endurance fights in HSR outside of SU, but SU gives steroids to every class, so it isn't really a real endurance test anyway. You can literally have perma-uptime on JL form just by having a single 2* Hunt Blessing, and Abundance also solves all of Blade's problems. Let's not even talk about how DanIl has an entire path made for him. MoC being a speed-run gamemode only makes it worse, cause high-burst low-consistency characters are inherently more valuable in a gamemode where the highest prestige is in doing the entire stage in a single turn.
I have both Seele E0 and Jingliu E1, what makes Jingliu so absurd is the E1 literally turns her into Seele vs 1 target. Her motion values against a single target is the same Seele's on both her enhanced skill and her ultimate. That said I still love my Seele and she's the second best DPS on my account by a large margin. Clara, Himeko and Serval being the others.
actually, this vid made me appreciate the interesting utility of topaz & numby and potential future topaz-likes. i've been having a blast using them in double dps teams with jing yuan and himeko, although admittedly, both my topaz and himeko are fairly stacked. combining the unique strengths of hunt and erudition in a synergistic way feels like i'm not losing out on damage or coverage with a double team over a destruction hypercarry comp.
Jingliu with Blade and a healer is soooo good and yeah I agree, it doesn’t really feel the same and as cohesive with other paths. Hope they fix that in the future.
This powercreep feeling is what makes honkai impact 3rd alive, every new chacarter just outshine so hard the old ones that makes impossible to skip new characters, to me this is a honkai universe problem sinse is the same team
The Honkai 3rd meta is very annoying but once you’ve played for 2 years or more ur pretty much set. Just my opinion though 😰 But I think in part 2 they are gonna tone down the meta stuff (somehow since the bar is VERY DAMN HIGH) because new players are not gonna be able to keep up.
@@uwu-chan they can't tone down, HI3 in Nirvana is about "being the best". If they release bad unit(Vill-V), sales go down, and they can't do anything "close", one unit always will be better in competitve than another.
The Destruction Class is more defined by sacrifice than target numbers. Each unit with the exception of MC seems to trade for damage. This means there are going to be more interesting units to explore in the future
@@SuperKevinho1 Yeah perhaps. I'll agree hook doesnt fall completely into my suggested thesis. im only trying to find a common link as somebody on the outsdide of MHY thinking. Its justs as easy to say that each of these characters have a mechanic to enhance their attack- usually at the cost of something.
I actually was just about to ask you about a really interesting article I stumbled on that hits on the same points regarding Star Rail vs Genshin and why they've essentially been driven back to Genshin despite the QoL mechanics that Star Rail has for the gacha style of gameplay both offer. Their comment essentially boiled down to this; Star Rail has become almost exclusively FOMO as just about every single character coming out is just another flavor of 'MOARDMG!' and they basically already had all they needed by the third banner release. Genshin, by comparison, at a minimum brings a lot of personality in how characters do what they do and, at best, each approach a character has is almost wholly unique. And I can see their point. In Star Rail I got Jing Yuan, Silver Wolf, Kafka, IL Dan Heng, Fu Xuan, and finally Topaz. I can do every single ounce of content just ham-fisting through it with IL Dan Heng using Silver Wolf (who I honestly don't even need there either; weakness break be damned) but I need a second party for MoC so it becomes whether I feel like Kafka or Jing Yuan/Topaz. I felt no compulsion whatsoever for Seele's rerun or Jingliu because...why? Felt the same way about Blade. The ONLY one I regret is Luocha just because of how fire-forget he is for the support/healer spot, but I don't actually have to have him. I have Bailu and Fu Xuan. Contrast that to Genshin's newest two characters whose names I won't even attempt to spell, lol. I own every character in Genshin and I saw a hydro laser and cryo fists and went, "Oh that looks cool as hell!" so I got them. Could I have done just fine with every other party I had up to that point? Yeah, but these two brought a fresher take on fights that just felt great to experience. With Star Rail you've got DoT DPS, Skill Points DPS, and Build-Up-A-Passive DPS and every single character released feels like it only brings one thing to the table; the fact that you don't have them yet.
Something very different happens to me with Genshin, most of the characters seem unnecessary to me and the ones that I think might interest me often do not compensate me for the farming necessary to level up the character.
You have some great points but come on, ur comparing a 3 year game with a game that just came out this year. As from what I've seen, genshin also went from something like that. Its Mihoyo, they did this to Hi3 on the first years but then they actually started releasing some good and new characters just as they did on genshin (not saying the other characters are not good). Give Star Rail some time, Mihoyo mostly listens to their community and from what I've seen, especially on star rail as they keep improving things on for this game. They'll definitely get there.
I think the combat just… never really necessitates super strong single target or very spread out AoE damage. Even for bosses, they usually summon minions, so the concentrated blast aoe of destruction characters is just better than only being able to focus on one enemy or spreading out your damage too much instead of focusing most of it on the boss.
Man its about time. Im so glad this is being pointed out because genuinely it is quite concerning. I completely agree the separation dps into three classes is made redundant if you end up making a super op middle class that not only does good single target and aoe damage but also doubles as a bruiser or a tank in the process. Perhaps this could have been avoided all together in the first place if they only went with 2 damage classes like how they have 2 defense and 2 offenseive supports. But unfortunately there is no complaining about it now. The only thing I can say is being a dps not in destruction is going to be hard regarding very stiff competition in future. Destruction Privilege is real.
I do not play Star rail but my sister does and as a classical music enjoyer her theme did not escape me. "Wow this character is cool what does she do?" "She is a dps but does not deal damage" "What?" "She along with this idiot(I think his name is Sanpo?) apply so many debuffs that enemies die by themselves" She seems like that character who is never the best option but always a meta one.
For one, I definitely think the predominance of Blast/Destruction really is a consequence of how busted Inbibitor and Jingliu are. Power creep since 1.2 has been absolutely insane, but during that time we haven't seen a new limited Erudition character and Topaz... well, we can come back to her. I think if the current power creep trends continue, or at least flatline, Argenti will become the next meta monster and people will only be complaining about Hunt. Secondly, I think the real future for Hunt and Erudition is in DPS+SubDPS lineups with both. If you are going to try to roll with a solo DPS, you need one that can handle all situations, both AoE and Single Target. The best way to do that is with Blast, which makes Destruction units optimal for solo carrying, bar some exceptions like Seele (who is, after all, "the fakest Hunt character"). However, if you have a DPS and a SubDPS, you can solve this issue through specialization as long as the SubDPS is relatively SP+ and supports the main DPS. That is exactly what Topaz does, by the way. Even her optimal rotation is SP neutral, with the capacity to be SP+ without a massive DPS drop off. Furthermore, she can massively improve the Single Target DPS of AoE characters with Follow Ups. Of course, Topaz is currently held back by the fact that Erudition Follow Up attackers aren't very good right now. But as soon as a good one is released, I can guarantee that her value will sky-rocket.
Ohhh you so right actually. Destruction is more like hypercarry where you need to protect your only dps at all cost while erudition/hunt is safer way where you can lose one of your dps and still defend yourself with second one. Ohh i start to think about some teams thank you it would be fun
The thing that makes destruction characters and more specifecly blast damage is the structure of bosses. I don't know any boss fight who doesn't summon minions. Also they just really like making destruction characters cracked
We have Eruditiona that work like The Hunt. Deal crap ton of dmg against single target.(Jing Yuan and soon Agenti). Destruction that act like Eru(Blade , Jingliu). Nihility that a also work like The Hunt.(Sampo and Welt). The Hunt that play like Nihility and also act like Harmony. (Topaz) Harmony that play like The Hunt(Asta, Yukong).
OH THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING! As someone who has seele, jing yuan and clara (among others), i can definetely say that clara is the best out of 3 of them. First of all, my seele simply doesn't one shot everything, so it makes her value less, jing yuan does mid dmg (in my opinion, it would be best if the 10 stacks would hit all the enemies 10 times and not like one enemy 2 times, the other 1, the other 3 and so on.) and in order to have him in a team, you need to be evry careful about how you're spending skill points, so it's hard to run him with some supports. When you pair him up with bronya, let's say that he uses his skill, bronya uses her skill on him and he uses his skill again. It's 3 skill points, not even counting potencial other supporting characters, so it's hard to use him in memory of chaos where rounds matter. Clara though has aoe dmg (her skill), single target dmg (her aa), but it doesn't deal much dmg and then her passive. When you proc her ulti, she deals the blast dmg and it's a LOT of dmg. Her follow-up attacks can be crucial when you need more rounds like in memory of chaos, so she's just very good. Her dmg output is also very good. When i use her, i don't feel the need for either an erudition character or the hunt character, because she simply deals overall more dmg as a distruction character (like you've pointed out in the video). Imo they have to give some buffs to (especially) erudtion characters, because honestly, you simply dont need them when you have blade, clara, jingliu or dan heng. They do enough aoe dmg. As for the hunt, sometimes it's better to use them instead of destruction, but still, destruction as of now is simply too op.
This has nothing to do with paths but with damage multipliers. Remember, Physical MC, Hook and Arlan are all destruction characters who are the worst characters in the game. If they would have made Jing Yuans multipliers higher, this video wouldnt even exist now. They just created Dan Heng IL, who for whatever reason has insanely high damage multipliers. No one was saying anything about Blade because he is in the same ball park as Seele and Kafka. Classes do not determine strength of a character
I think paths do in part matter. Hunt characters focus on single target, so they're uncomfortable in blast or aoe scenarios, meanwhile erudition characters are purely AOE and fall behind in single target. Destruction tends to have blast/3-target damage, which allows them to be good in both aoe, blast and single target content. Blast/3-target is also by far the most common kind of encounter, with most bosses having a couple trash mobs or summons. All this combined with the fact that we've simply seen more destruction characters than most other paths means that destruction appears much stronger than it is per se.
I agree with you. For whatever reason they decided to go nuts with IL multipliers and ruin a game with it (even Jingliu is not broken to that exetent as him). It will probably a be a downward spiral to doom and power creep from now on. I am still playing it for now but we will see for how long.
@@doublereel-real No you are completely misunderstanding the point. Again, paths have nothing do with that. Look at Serval, Himeko and QQ. They are "Blast" characters (single target + small aoe), yet they are erudition characters. And they are all bad except QQ. Not because of their path but because she just deals more damage. Kafka, NIHILITY -> works like a Destruction unit. Also another misconception about the game favoring multiple enemies. When Seele released, everyone and their mother was screaming how this game favors single target damage because small enemies die in 1-2 hits anyway and the big bosses are the problems. And Hunt characters do have ways to access aoe. Topaz -> 2 attacks per turn. Seele -> chaining attacks, Sushang -> ult gives extra action. Then Jing Yuan released, who had skill + ult for aoe clearing, and a big, strong single target talent, that also allows for aoe clearing. Why was his "mid"? Because his damage modifiers were too low. If IL and Jingliu would be "A tier" non of your arguments would make any sense because they wouldnt deal enough single target damage to justify being aoe on top. You also conveniently ignored physical MC, Hook and Arlan. Who should be according to you really strong because they are destruction.
@@xSkailserval and himeko only do blast damage on their skills. the bulk of their damage is probably going to be on their full aoe talents and ults. also hook *is* good. as someone who has very limited 5 star characters, she's a solid f2p-friendly DPS. she just doesn't center her damage around blast, so that's why she isn't in this discussion. phys MC is a starter so they're really just there for you to understand the ropes of combat, and arlan is uh... he honestly just feels like a sign of hyv colourism. I don't think I've ever seen hyv give so much potential to a character, then rip it all away in an instant.
My seele used to be one of the best seeles out there and her dmg was just great but since I have gotten Jingliu, she completely destroyed seele when it comes to real DMG numbers and I was amazed how exceptional a destruction character is and my jingliu isn't really that great build-wise.
Destruction characters are meant to be berserkers. They're meant to be risky, and risk is supposed to correspond to damage. The more risk you have, the more damage you do.
After getting Clara, I've rarely put erudition in my teams. They're just not versatile enough and pretty much only good for clearing easy enemies and terrible for boss fights. Now that I got Jing Liu, I now have 2 destruction in the same team. 😅
I'm maybe going to be controversial, but I think HSR didn't need Destruction. Most of Destructions could have happily been either Erudition (Blade, Jingliu, IL), Hunt ( Arlan and physical TB, both with a little rework of kit) or Preservation (Clara) units. Instead I would have made a differentiation between dotters and non-dotting debuffers by creating the Remembrance path (examples would be Welt, Pela and SW) or creating the Elation path for characters of various roles with follow ups (Himeko, Kurukuru, Clara, March, Yangqing - obviously some reworks would have been needed)
we actually do have a dps character with the what i think best mix of aoe and single target power destruction should be aim towards in the form of Welt despite being a nihility debuff character with dps potential he feels more like a dps with some debuffs for added flavor but his kit feels extremely well tuned to balance single target and aoe in an almost equal way his basic attack that gains bonus instances of damage for seemingly no reason but also has a decent damage output if you need single target damage but theres more than one enemy his skill being a bounce attack means its very good when theres just 1 target but still deals passable aoe dmg when theres more than one while his ultimate is at its peak dmg potential with alot of enemies present while it falls off when theres just 1 target as opposed to his skill where its the strongest when just hitting a single enemy 3 times on top being a standart character getting 1-2 eidolons for him is also on more reasonable side and his eidolon one gives him even more damage from using his ultimate even against just 1 target if we look at his e6 now his skill hits 4 times making both its aoe dmg better as well its single target damage skyrocket
We may just need support effects that strictly give a bonus to hunt/erudition kinda like how lynx taunt only applies to preservation/destruction. Also i think Jing and Topaz suffer partially due to poor follow up support; I think backloaded damage should have more support options than raw damage because you have to sacrifice time and risk damage.
One slight correction. The max is 5 normal enemies. Enemies that swarm have a higher limit. I've seen as many as 8 on the screen before. The game probably relegates them as lesser enemies due to their lower hp than normal or bosses. That did seem like a unique factor for a specific boss though. That was also a long time ago. I'm not sure if that was a glitch that got patched or anything either. They were summonable enemies. They summoned those bird enemies.
If only there was a balance patches instead of left characters as they are no matter what, even if it's a Xianyan who literally has non functional kit or Herta who should follow-up every single time an ally hit an enemy below 50% with her damage, but instead somehow got nerfed after a beta, yet Jingliu is totally balanced...
I don't know about other people, but I personally didn't pull fir Topaz not because she's a hunt unit... but because I didn't like the vibes I got from her in the story, and also because her animations don't focus around her (and with how attractive she is... they definitely should have).
Also seem to forget that 2 of the consensus best of their class, Xingqiu for Sub-DPS and Bennett for support, were available at launch. Also it isn't really fair to put Zhongli there cause he was actually bad at release. He was so bad at release Mihoyo actually buffed him due to the outrage of how bad he was.
I believe that i've come up with idea where Erudition might be king. New enemy with special mechanic: If you hit them but do not hit every single other enemy on arena, they do counter damage or debuff you or heal you. Yeah idea doesnt stick when A. There are only 3 enemies and you can use destruction with blast. Or there are more than 3, but your erudition deals damage to one +2 adjecant and not everyone (himeko skill, serval skill etc) So yeah still underdeveloped and probably blast is still best, but i dont see others coming up with solutions much.
I use Yanqing, Jing Yuan, Blade, and Dan Heng IL on my accounts, and I absolutely feel what you are talking about. And it's discouraging and makes me want to stop using my first two DPS's, even though I love them still. But even though I feel this way, I try to show the two of them extra love to make up for it. I even managed to pull Topaz, which I'm hoping she and Jing Yuan will make a great team together.
As someone who recently played HI3 before retiring for a bit, the whole meta changing quickly thing was prevalent. I remember starting around Pardo's release, and while she's still a good support with her gear, we all know Shigure Kira has taken her spot, especially since there's a boss mechanic she more easily deals with. Pardo will still live on in my heart forever though 😂
People are missing the forest for the trees. Yes Destruction is meta, but it has to be by nature. Generalists > Specialists. Seele is the exception, not the rule. Unless they print out hunt units with resurgence mechanics like Seele, they will always be a little less meta than their destruction peers. If Hunt was meta, erudition would feel so much weaker due to their pure aoe nature and vice versa. Case and point, Yanqing.
the problem with seele is that shes realeased very early, so it became the standard for hunt. the exception excuse only valid if she was released way later
@@razrafz And Yanqing is released in 1.0 lol. ST DPS will struggle with adds and AOE DPS will struggle with bosses. Seele is the exception because she has turn manipulation. Still don't get it? It means Seele doesn't have to waste her turns popping adds.
Well the issue pointed in the video is not that Destruction is meta The issues is that the generalist are equal or better at the job of the specialist themselves Destruction characters can have single target damage rivaling what hunt can do and it's not something that should be possible because they are like you said : generalist Destruction should be Jack of all trade master of none but actually they are closer to Jack of all trades master of all
I'd consider QQ to have blast attacks since here basic gets enhanced and hits three opponents instead of one. She doesn't loose any damage if there is only one enemy left.
I think the perfect example of a Destruction character that isn't broken that is still consistent and strong, is Blade. He sacrifices HP, but also benefits when sacrificing HP, whether it's damage or healing from his follow-up. Destruction should be about the dance between 1-100% HP of the characters, while also being able to deal higher damage based on HP of either the character or the party. It's a very satisfying playstyle for me.
they gonna release content where you have to kill enemies simultaneously or the other will revive. THAT'S when you'll cry for an erudition unit. say a swarm of 5 need to be killed all at the same cycle etc. ERUDITION will be mandatory. either revive or heal eachother with equal HP pool. I know it will be somewhat niche, but patches for now favor destruction unit (enjoy it) but with time we know hoyo renders characters less effective during certain patches when other mechanic shines much better.
I think they do understand this, which is why Topaz turned out more supportive. You can now slot her onto a team with 2 dps, second one having good aoe , and not lose out too much in terms of buffs. I think there will be variations of Hunt and Erudition that follow this concept as subdps/buffers, along with the Seele/Jing Yuan types that deal raw damage in line with their path. Destruction focuses on sacrificing some type of resource to deal damage, which can make it more of a wildcard and jack of all trades. Definitely, most cost effective units have been destruction. I have no doubts they will have content--including MoC-- that will be tailored more to hunt and erudition paths during banner cycles that don't have destruction units in them. This MoC still had Jingliu in mind, but it clearly benefited Topaz with the damage spread, so she could just focus on attacking the elites with the mark.
"Consumes 180 Energy and deals Physical DMG equal to 280% of Argenti's ATK to all enemies, and further deals DMG for 6 extra time(s), with each time dealing Physical DMG equal to 95% of Argenti's ATK to a random enemy." They already making argenti erudition character that will nuke single target better than dan and jingliu
honkai impact didnt have powercreep until hov came out but its not a time scale thing its juss a change in philosophy thing for the team they prolly figured it out that they make more money doing this
I feel like Clara and Blade are the only true destruction characters that fit the description of their role. Their brusers, the more damage they take, the more damage they do. Even Arlan takes his own hp to deal skill damage without skill points. But once Danheng came out, he kinda just destroyed the definition of what a destruction character even is. He just does a shit ton of damage, at the cost of nothing but skill points. Jingliu might take her party'a hp, but her damage isn't limited by getting attacked by the enemy like blade or clara. I wish hoyoverse stuck with the, "if you get attacked, you deal more damage" gimick that clara set for destruction characters and instead, make Erudition characters have the blast attacks. Hunt should be kept the same.
You know what’s the real problem with Destructions (except Blade and Clara ofc)? It’s the fact that none of them are able to auto. Try autoing with Jingliu (especially when you have Bronya) or DHIL. See what happens.
meta is volatile and influenced by current content and character releases. MoC changes to suit the banner character, and we had destruction units for like three patches in a row, meanwhile it's uncertain where SU will go next (imagine if the next SU path did to Jing Yuan what propagation did to QQ). Path of elation: For each instance of toughness damage done, buff stat or advance turn now have the last boss be 4-5 moderately strong enemies with lightning weakness
![Rappa BREAKS Into Our Account [Honkai: Star Rail Erudition Only]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-paemtjJcBA/mqdefault.jpg)
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Guys I’ll save you time Nikke is a trash game with greed cash grab mechanics
@@bryanreacts413yup and only good thing about it is the character designs
@@bryanreacts413Guys I'll save you the time, bro is cappin
@@mrwannabe00character design is also a negative part. Most characters look disgusting, there is nothing special or appealing in their outfits. Every single character is just girl with absurdly big parts of the body, which wears clothes that have absolutely no logic and idea behind it. Just a piece of meat.
@@FaregonSk lmao ok man
Destruction was supposed to be Jack of all trades, master of none.
Instead it became. Jack of all trades, MASTER OF ALL
I call that the Master of All Trades
It's funny you say that because the full version of that saying is "Jack of all trades, master of none, but oftentimes better than master of one"
@@spade_suityeah oftentimes better. Now it's ALWAYS better.
Facts!!!!!!
Literally Bladie lol
They need to make better erudition units, it’s as simple as that. Jing yuan isn’t even that bad but something about the entire erudition path feels off.
Mainly damage numbers imo, they scale kinda slow compared to destruction. Not to mention most destruction units are sp positive/neutral.
I think that the should made them more a sud dps than a dps to make them be pair with destruction units, the same with Hunt units.
They have low scalings because they hit everyone, yet destruction bypasses this. That's why they feel off.
@@pheonixryu6167The only destruction five star that is sp positive/neutral is Clara. Lunae certainly isn’t either of those then Blade and Jingliu AREN’T either of those either because they never regenerate any sp, they’re sp negative especially Jingliu needing two (or one if you used technique) to get to her state but she never regenerates sp.
@@wage942 true, but comparative to erudition and hunt they come out ahead in order to deal damage, barring IL. Basically it's a lot easier to have sp for other things compared to the other damage dealers who constantly have to spam skill just to keep up for clarity
In theory Destruction characters are supposed to be bruisers, but I think Hoyo kind of forgot about that fact.
Since Lunae and Jingliu have the power of Hunt units along with the AoE potential of Erudition it's not surprising that it feels like Destruction is overpowering the other paths. Especially Erudition, it kind of feels like they've completely lost their identity already.
yes but we have fuxuan who is a tank and heals, we have huohuo who heals and increases atk and gives energy, luocha with his eidolons reduces resistance
so every path lost their identity
@@rozee8516 Agreed, especially with that last bit about erudition buffs. But in particular, I think it'd be good for erudition characters to have self buffing capability that allow them to ramp up, a bit like Jing Yuan, but less restrictive. Right now Herta is my favorite character to play just because it's fun building up and maintaining all the self buffs she gets (both from her own kit and the 4 piece Glacial Forest set)
Giving the player more to focus on than just damage, even when that thing is getting more damage, makes units way more fun IMHO
Clara and Blade for me are the standard of what Destruction units should do.
@@rozee8516IL is squishy but that's where FX and Luocha come in. And they're in virtually every team
I agree. I also feel like devs abandoned the initial definition of Destructions characters being the bruiser class. Nowadays, I feel they redefined it as the class that sacrifices resources for more power like how IL consumes a lot of SP and Jing Lui consumes team's HP.
I think that hoyo tried making destruction high reward high risk, by eating up hp(or skill points) to make the rotation more harder because if you don't do it right the damege will fall (and your character with it) the only reason why it isn't much of a problem is because we have great supports
High risk high reward yet the risk is patched up by the supports.
The risk is just too small when comparing to what they got
- jingliu : dmg boost by sacrificing mere 5% of team health ? Anyone with proper sustainer wont feel anything.
- DHIL : 3 SP for huge dmg multiplier is fine, but dont give free sp on his ult. Or free sp on his ult but make it cost 4 sp.
- blade : i think he's the most balanced out of three, but still i think they need to reduce his spd by about 3-5 for the sake of his high survivability.
Yeah I agree. High reward, very slight risk/drawback.
For sure this is what's happening with supports.
Also the game difficulty just isn't hard enough to make that downside notable.
one idea would be to add a buff to each class that all units of that class share. for example, erudition units deal more dmg the more enemies there are, hunt units deal more damage the less enemies there are, and destruction units deal more damage the lower they are. that way each class is better for a certain type of combat
I can vibe with this too 💯
Thats a rlly good idea. I never really git the difference between destruction and the other dmg classes. Especially since qq is literally just a destruction char and arlan is kind of a hunt.
About Hunt and Erudition, they do have that, buts its locked behind lightcones. "Only Silence Remains" ( 4 star) increases your Crit Rate if there are 2 or fewer enemies on field. "Meteor Swarm" (5 star) increases your atk for every enemy *on field*. Do you see the problem? In theory, for every Erudition character to be good, they would all need "Meteor Swarm", but that's a 5 star lightcone and even then they would become weaker when there are less enemies. Every Hunt character would need "Only Silence Remains" AND a very good set of relics. The amount of RNG and investement you have to do is high compared to Destruction, which has a very versatile set of lightcones and are easier to build among the three. I really doubt Hoyoverse would try to fix the classes, but rather sell the solution as lightcones and/or power creep
@@erleinmayer7498 yeah locking fundamental class buffs behind rng or paywalls is definitely something i very much dislike about star rail, and even then the exclusive 5* destruction lcs still give insane buffs
But not all Destruction characters have HP manipulating mechanics, like we see for Imbibitor or Clara. This is also a problem in the Simulated Universe, where they had to create a new Path that revolves around skill point usage. But creating new paths for every new gameplay niche would also be a bit of a problem.
I do want to point out that the problem with destruction was apparent to anyone who had Clara in 1.0, if you had her E1 she was better than any Erudition character at thier job with a better element and still had all of her counter damage.
Yeah Clara’s E having full field coverage is already generous for a destruction character. A permanent 2-hit buff that basically double your damage is just gratuitous lol (not complaining though I have her E3S1 and she’s so fun to use)
I was kinda lucky to get Clara in 1.0 & her E1 in 1.1 and yea she outclassed any erudition or hunt I was building at the time.
i got clara E1 on first 2 days of playing and then i benched her. Started to bild her this week xD
ive had E1 clara since 1.0 and she was by far my best unit for a while, especially with her lightcone which I keep getting on weapons... its R3.
A thing not discussed in this video but I think bears bringing up for Erudition characters in general: not only did Mhy not give the Erudition cast solid numbers (Qingque as a half-exception), they also hamstrung them with their light cone options. The only "accessible" five star, Night On The Milky Way, actively gets *worse* in most boss fights, since the more enemies you kill, the further the buff drops off, making your Erudition wave-clearer's power nadir even more painful. The f2p four star options are a complete tossup- Make The World Clamor only affects ultimate damage, Birth of The Self only buffs followup attacks, and while Genius' Repose gives a ton of crit damage, it's sort of a side grade to The Seriousness of Breakfast, which is the only universally solid Erudition light cone.
Hunt characters have the same amount of 4 star options, but their options are considerably less niche: Swordplay gives stacking damage% as long as you're hitting the same enemy, Subscribe For More gives damage% on your basics and skills, even River Flows In Spring's conditional buff is universal and reliable for hunt characters due to their decreased threat level. But none of those really matter for the average player, because they have a fantastic, totally free option in Cruising In The Stellar Sea. If you only have one Hunt carry you're building, you can kind of ignore the gacha entirely and have a fully imposed CITSS in a few weeks from the jump.
Destruction characters? Destruction characters have it even *better*. Something Irreplacable gives a ton of free stats and survivability while utilizing Destruction's increased threat level, and On The Fall Of An Aeon is a pretty equivalent giant stat-stick that's entirely free to play accessible. A Secret Vow is one of the most universally useful four start light cones in the game, and even the less stellar four stars like Nowhere To Run, The Moles Welcome You and Under The Blue Sky are considerably less niche than the entire four star roster for Erudition.
It boggles my mind that they prioritized adding a Nihility light cone to the Herta Shop over Erudition when Nihility already has some of the best 4 star options *and* they had already had entries for the two other primary damage paths in there.
Nihility ALSO got the first (and so far only?) event 4* LC in Before the Tutorial Mission Starts, which basically breaks Pela wide open, making the addition of a 5* Herta LC even more baffling.
@@Uryvichkthey want to boost kafka sale. BUT YEAH I DO AGREE THAT ERUDITION NEED RECOGNITION. Its a shame that my favorite class is outclassed by so many character that i dont wish, simply because they have different class than what i like. Even more so, ive been waiting for jingyuan rerun so that i could get his signature lightcone for my qinque, but i dont think its anywhere soon since his banner dont sell that well compared to others
I think Night On The Milky Way should increase it’s buff based on the number of enemies defeated (up to prob 5x) not currently on the field
It would make it better against bosses since they like to spawn mobs, and still vibes with the Erudition path
If not that, AT LEAST have the buff be based on the number of enemies that STARTED in the field, and not CURRENTLY on field. So if the fight started with 5 mobs, you get the max bonus for the entire fight, which would also help Erudition against boss fights with 2 or more waves
@@KinDiedYesterdayJY and luocha are apparently next with black swan and sparkle. Might be just rumors but it makes sense.
my prediction is as the game progress, classes in the game will be blurred with unit overlapping each other. we already see it with Fu Xuan and HuoHuo where defence type class (Preservation & Abudance) giving buff to teammate
The main problem here is that characters element or path plays almost no role. It would be much more complexe and leave much more room for characters gameplay design, if game had some sort of elemental interaction, like in Genshin. Enemies affected with Ice would receive more damage from next Fire attack and so on.
If you look back you can see that characters blending Paths has actually been a thing since launch
@@shinidragon7775 not really? the only example I can think of is hook since she plays more like a hunt character
@@legithuman5486 Serval plays like a Nihility character, Qingque is just straight up Quantum Imbibitor Lunae, and Bailu has Preservation traits and some Harmony traits with Eidolons. Launch characters generally are more in line with their Path's descriptions but there was also still a fair bit of line blurring going on
@@shinidragon7775 Dan Heng and Sushang have a bit of Nihility in each of em as well. Dan has slows, while Sushang has huge incentives to build break effect because of her E4 and high break efficiency. Let's not forget that Seele was considered an aoe character by many, and Jing Yuan's LL is much stronger against a single target.
The fact that Destruction characters sometimes have eidolons that focuses their damage on a single target further makes me think Hoyo is playing favorites
Yea I don't see hunt's eidolons fixing their AoE issue. Or the other way around. Defo feels like playing favourites. Weird from hoyo.
They always do.
They are playing a game where you need the newest characters otherwise you can't clear difficult things easily now. When the game came out everyone was focused on the paths not knowing destruction would literally be all the dps paths combined in one.... like why do you still have hunt and erudition paths if you have destruction???
@@HatDog21 i agree
@@HatDog21sorry but the first part isnt true at all. It is harder, but you can complete the game without ever pulling honestly
Good video. All I want to add is I think the real draw of hunt units isn't so much single target damage, but single target damage PLUS their ability to cheat the turn limit. This is why Dan Heng original and yanqing aren't standing the test of time as well next to extra turn Seele, self advance Sushang and "I get two turns minimum every round plus an ultimate that gives me another 2" Topaz.
Or at the very least I'm hoping that's how it's gonna go. We'll see when L+Ratio comes out, but I think that would be the most interesting thing that could be done with Hunt characters.
judging by what we know of the upcoming 5* Hunts the "I go again bitches" mechanic seems to be their forte, both Mei and Yae's expy for Star Rail are said to be Hunt units (lightning and ice respectively) and both of them has Seele's extra turn mechanic tied to different things in their kit
I first thought Erudition’s extra kick were follow-up attacks, but I don’t think Serval has one. (And Qingque’s is at eidolons and probabilistic.)
@@darylewalker6862 Yeah, Serval and pre-E4 Qingque are the only two without follow up attacks. In theory Erudition could be self buffers, like Jing Yuan and what Dreamy does with Herta, but they do need an extra thing besides AOE IMHO
atleast Dan heng has a action advance similar to seele in his eidolons though only in the ult but yanqing I'd argue that his followup mechanic is kind of makes up for it giving a chance every now and then to do an extra half skill worth of damage and having a chance to freeze and delay the enemies turn further giving himself more turns over the enemy
@@ben9003 Yanqing also does what the three last destruction characters did and just get a lot of crit in his kit naturally, but they balanced it way too much where taking any damage negates it which is a pain. Still a good unit, tho. If we're talking casually, I don't think there's a single bad unit in the game yet, just ones more frustrating to play *side eyes Arlan*
This is just like when yomiya released "oh no she can only deal single target dmg". A year later and the abyss was filled with single target bosses. Its very likely that content favoring hunt and erudition will come over time.
I’m not so sure about Erudition tbh. Unless they raise the cap on the number of enemies that can take the field, blast attacks are usually more than sufficient for taking care of 1-2 bosses and 3-4 minions. Hunt definitely has potential though
@@kairos-049Very true. Even in 5 enemy scenarios, more often than not the two enemies at the side are not important, so blast attacks being able to still deal good damage on single target makes them way better than full AoE.
@@Brkncntrllr the combat design is very unfavorable towards Erudition.
and 2 year laters, there are still many dps who can both deal great single-target dmg and AoE dmg (Alhaitham, Ayaka, even Nilou ffs). I have Yoimiya, never uses her.
remember the time where MoC keeps spawning trotter? they tried but those trotters are way too tanky for the shitty erudition multipliers
In words of Dr. Zajef, In Genshin, there are more dimensions for characters to be worth pulling for- easy of play, gameplay design, Animations in overworld - with exploration being a much bigger part etc. But in a turn based game like honkai, powercreep would be much faster as characters would has less dimensions to be worth pulling for.
mabye, but in genshin every patch units got better and better early, its faster in the beginning, it'll slow down soon
Seems to be true, cuz main reason why I pulled Furina is her ability to walk on water infinitely
Its a bit concerning star rail's meta has already shiftet a lot from hunt to destruction, genshin needed 1-2 years to shift from hypercarrys to reaction spam
eula is the exeption it think
In words of Dr. Zajef, In genshin, there are more dimensions for characters to be worth pulling for. Animations, easy of play, exploration being a much bigger part etc. But in a turn based game like honkai, powercreep is inevitable as characters would need to do much more to be worth pulling for.
@@atinychimken hu tao is the exception eula is pretty ass for anything but damage per screenshot
@@arunjosephshadrach9539animations and ease of play weren't enough a reason to pull for in Star Rail?
@@xenoemblem7 star rail is different from genshin. In genshin a bad team can be offset by player skill, in star rail a bad team is a bad team.
Rpg gatchas suffer from this quite heavily which is why experience players always tell new players to ALWAYS get one meta support and then play how they want, because it will make their lives a lot easier, a meta support can make even the worst teams viable.
What gatcha games usually try to do is hit the golden triangle, a mix of op, great design and story significance, this creates a situation were they can make a character not to op but still have high sales, or they can make them meta defining, in fgo a meta defining character is caster artoria or merlin who are cool played big roles in the story and are op, less op but beloved characters muramas, arc and the kama's not meta defining but still pretty good.
3rd impact had the Hersherrs which defined several metas until they become older and more available to the average player with newer weapons to make them meta relevant but not meta defining, genshin has the Archons and to a lesser extent the harbingers, I expect Childe and Venti to get new weapons to push them up the meta.
Star rail sadly doesn't have that group except maybe the stellaron hunters so now the only way to drive up sales is with op characters
If they made Erudition characters have permanent damage buffs scaling with enemies killed, it could make Erudition way stronger.
Hmm, good idea
Also Jade: 🤭
"A jack of all trades is a master of none, but often times better than a master of one."
This sums up Destruction well. Because they are general DPS, their application and ability to be the central to any team outshines the specialized Hunt and Erudition. Especially so when their Eidolons strengthen their shortcomings. This is only made more apparent because Destruction has a higher HP as well so they aren't a much glass cannons.
As some comment have stated above, that’s not the issue, the issue is destruction isn’t a master of none it’s the master of all.
@@techtutorial9050 i wouldn't say that. At least not in e0. They are certainly less effective at AoE than Erudition bit i do see the argument when comparing them to Hunt.
It's not just a Destruction doing better than Hunt or Erudition thing, it's been less than a year and already characters are doing things outside their class designation
Fu Xuan is the most egregious example, as while protecting her team as a Preservation, she also buffs their HP and heals them like an Abundance, while buffing Crit Rate (and later Crit Damage at E1) like Harmony
There is fair reason to run Hunt, but there's almost zero reason to run Erudition
...
Hoyoverse wants Himeko dead so much that they already killed her whole class XD
Blade I was understanding of cause he fits the self sacrificing /self destructive bruiser play style while the only thing lunae destroys is your skill points at lower eidolons. Jing Liu goes against that self destructive play style and actively damages your team if they re-released her as hunt or erudition nobody would be able to tell.
Oh and another thing, damn the last three were edgy I guess it is to balance the personalities of the destruction class with three cheerful/playful characters and three edgy characters.
hurting your own team is self destructive for the player, not the single unit
Destruction: you’re either a kid or a war criminal.
I wouldn't call a 4% of hp "actively damages your team". It's basically nothing.
@@darylewalker6862 give hook a few more years before she turns into the Jarilo version of genghis Khan and decides to expand the Mole empire into the stars.
Also Clara has warcrime daddy and Arlan is short of getting the Yanqing treatment before become a war criminal
Blade is imo the book definition of destruction class to a T. Dude is the bruiser/berserker Ive always loved in games and the reason I was interested in destruction even way back when it was the weakest path.
Actually, Jingyuan is the best Erudition character since the less the enemies there are, the better the spread of the damage of Lightning Lord. If, for example, there is only one boss left, all of the damage stacks of LL is poured to it instead of spreading it. So, in case of JY, his damage output (particularly LL) is consistent whethere there be more enemies or one.
it wouldve been better if LL just hits everything equally with how restrictive its already is. his E dmg is also so low so its actually feel shit to use on single target
Jing yuan is better at killing 3 enemies than 5 or 3 enemies which makes him at the weird spot lmao. As a Jing yuan main he legit sucks at 5 enemy AOE.
Main reason Destruction is dominating is that the enemy lineup caters to it to sell the last 3 Destruction DPS in a row.
It would be quite easy to generate anti-Destruction meta by shifting the enemies in MOC.
For instance, 5 enemies all of which are high priority, otherwise they do something bad. Erudition would be able to hit all of them to keep them all at bay, Destruction not so much.
Or 2 enemies, but one of them you don't want to hit right now otherwise they counter and oneshot your team. Hunt would be able to isolate, Destruction would be forced to eat it.
Erudition multipliers are awful as proven by the Trotter spam MoC. The latter scenario still favors Destruction unless the enemies can oneshot even a max buff Clara + Fu Xuan
Another thing with most destruction units is that they self sabotage to deal more damage, like Blade, Jingliu, Dan Heng² or even Arlan, which is a really cool idea, playing with fire to win faster.
The problem is that the cost isn't as high as the reward, and can be easily nullified by having a good team. Or Luocha. Especially Luocha. Bro heals automatically and farm skill points like a mumbo jumbo Minecraft farm
Maybe keeping the destruction damage that high but making them riskier to use is a good way to go ?
Qingque feel more like a destruction character more than a erudition character
Blast, enhanced state, good multipliers, yep
Great character stuck in a bad path. Like imagine if she had access to the busted Destruction lightcones.
@@reizshfelonia6471 if only i can get my hand on il lc and put it on qq
@@reizshfelonia6471 eh, breakfast is the best f2p LC so its fine
Based Qingqueen being the first multiclass character
My only complaint for these characters is just how easy and low-risk high-reward their kits are. If you are gonna throw in a character that has a potential to steam roll at least make it so that there are some actual conditions to fulfill or risks to consider that justifies the absurd damage output.
Arlan, chilling after nerfs: huh
@@LeftyPencilhe ain't Chinese and white tho.
@@LeftyPencilmihoyo intentionally make the dark skinned characters the worst😂
honestly i like it
honestly if they just made erudition characters with crazy bounce abilities erudition would be way better
Rumors say that Tornillum will be that: attacks that bounce with the skill, attacks out of turn with the talent and bombardment with the burst.
@@brago900 who??
@@josephoyek6574I hate that I know who exactly they're talking about...
It's that certain distinguished mechanical gentleman, but called with a punny name.
@@josephoyek6574 Screwllum, in my language they call it Tornillum.
And then we have Qingque who is Erudition masquerading as a Destruction unit.
It's funny because when the game first came out, the description for destro path was "Deals outstanding amounts of damage and possesses great survivability. Suitable for various combat scenarios." At that time, I was thinking "why would you ever not take the best tools for any job? hunt does single-target better, erudition does aoe better, preservation does tanking better." It didn't help that our first destro character, MC, is exactly that kind of generalist bruiser character that is outclassed in every category. I think someone at Hoyoverse saw that, and they ended up swapping the "trade HP for damage" destruction sub-theme in place of the original bruiser conceptualization. Which is good, in theory. It does give the path an actually unique identity, albeit a totally different one from the one we thought we were getting.
The issue is that this is fundamentally a game of attrition, which means that every team is going to have someone providing sustain. This mitigates (or outright eliminates) the HP trade-off to the point where it's *always* worth it. I don't think we need (or want) destro to go back to being the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, we just need to push destro closer to the edge where that trade-off is sometimes not worth it. That could be by changing the amount of HP destro characters have to pay or, since Hoyoverse won't retroactively nerf released characters, create content that limits or punishes you for healing. Or better yet, just buff hunt and erudition by leaning into their own subthemes, speed and turn manipulation and follow-up attacks respectively.
I think Topaz was mainly put in the game to Fix Jingyuan's and Clara's main issue. With her buff Jingyuan can consistently deal a lot single target damage, same with Clara and unlike them who attack sparingly, Numby has like 3 turns every cycle and can break toughness bars easily.
Yeah also the new follow-up relic set in 1.5 is massively overtuned for Topaz & Jingyuan. Feel they are doing some patchystuff,but the fundamental issue is they are tuning destruction single target damage the same or above hunt characters single target damage. They should be at like 80% of hunt not the same or higher.
Topaz and Numby just exist to repair my trust in MiHoyo after Jing Yuan didn't come with a cat... 😠
@@karsonkammerzell6955I wanted the lion too.
that was the dumbest thing they could do, "let's fix their problems by releasing a new 5star" just pull!!! pog
@@lancer9257 True but atleast its better than them being powercrept by the next shiny thing + hybrid carries like Kafka and Topaz will deal more and more damage the more characters with their niches exist, so in a way, while not staying the best, it'll help them stay relevant.
My thought was that hunt and erudition were designed to complement each other so you'd play both in one team. While destruction is more like a mix of both to be used by themselves
Oh believe me, as a Honkai Impact 3rd player, once seemingly broken characters get powercreeped almost immediately
Starchasm Nyx getting crept in one patch by FR priarm lol (or zero if you consider obvilion down Hawk of the Fog)
Carole getting crept by Griseo in 4 patches
can't remember more
@@tencive5749 yes it happens occasionally but with HI3 being their first big game when half of this happened and the length of the games lifespan it really doesn't happen as much as ppl say it does, they defo have learned by having senti and Horb in the same meta, even carole has a niche she's best at (ss/low hp bosses with a big shield). Also i literally main delta and can maintain redlotus most of the time, unless ur a giga whale u can use most chars to great success if they came out within the last 4 years.
@@tencive5749 nyx was still best ice DPS until SW and FR was just easier and cheaper alternative as nyx was released as most gear dependent valk but nyx still had most of best quantum score especially if you are in nirvana than FR really failed to compete Nyx
Multi limb bosses sharing a single.health pool would be awesome. The extra limbs just needs to have break gauges as their form of hp to disable them when broken
limbus company boss in honkai?
Honestly I think a bonus thing that affects all limited DPS (besides the saturation of destruction vs other paths so most content us geared towards destruction atm) is the lack of good lightcones and how certain relic sets also suck for said characters.
Like kit design and multipliers are definitely important, but I feel like it's an extra low blow when you try building JY only to get 4pc lightning set and s5 seriousness of breakfast because it's the best available atm, like it's kinda funny how ass some lc and relics are and you're better aiming for 2pc sets because there's nothing better in the game lmao
Erudition is meant to be aoe, but of the five current ones, only Herta actually attacks everyone. Qingque's enhanced basic does blast damage, Serval and Himeko's skills are blast, and Jing Yuan's Lightning Lord functions as a blast attack. Herta is the only one who attacks all enemies with all of her abilities (minus her basic attack of course). Which means that destruction characters can do almost as much aoe as erudition. Why take the wave clearing characters when the bruisers functionally do the same thing with better damage?
Hopefully, we'll either get bosses that frequently fill the field or more erudition characters to balance the game out.
OK but if we're gonna be fair, Jing Yuan also attacks all enemies with both his Skill and Ultimate. While Herta's the only one who exclusively attacks everyone, I think JY's setup is sufficiently AoE-focused to count (and the LL being able to focus fire on single targets ultimately helps him sort of compete with more focused damage dealers, so I'd call it a positive).
My king Argenti says hello
I wish Erudition characters at E0 could just use their Basics which should have been AOE from the start.
Game's battle system is limited by "Skillpoints" and not bound by "Turn Cooldowns" when using Skills or Bursts.
@@Static-EN-He's bad. Or at least not good. His numbers are pretty low across the board. Also his entire gimmick being a half ult isn't good. No energy refund, no decent damage. Just... meh
@@Uryvichkwym? Jing yuan doesnt have any other attacks beside his lighning lord, his ult and skill are garbage 😂😂
/s
i mean genshin kinda did the power creep thing at the beginning with diluc then xiao then ganyu then hu tao, all being better than the last each patch, and also swords tend to be the best (bennet , xingqiu, kazuha, ayaka, al haitham, nilou, and maybe furina soon)
1.0 Diluc
1.2 Ganyu
1.3 (Xiao) & HuTao
Id say the next power creep happened in
4.1 Neuvilette
There were a lot of powerful character between 1.3-4.1, but they were comparable to the bar HuTao set. Granted, I don't know about power creep with C6 R5 whales.
Tbh those are the only real big damage dealers in Genshin apart from recently released Neuvillete most of other ones rely on reaction spam rather then doing damage themselves.
polearms tend to be better, as they have the same attack speed and damage as swords, but more range, swords are second
Yea genshin and star rail both have a big china DPS trio, then Genshin started balancing. Star Rail will most likely be the same.
@@kirin1230Yea, I feel like they want to make more long term money and avoid too much long term power creep in SR than HI3. They've done it enough times already they can tweak it better.
The damage scaling suppose to in the order : HUNT > Destruction > erodition. And draw back of specific path suppose to be hunt : lack versatility, destruction : speed, erodition : single target DMG. Since MoC don't have path restriction you can just brute force all the way upto 10 just by using meta destruction characters with SW.
I feel like this is routed in a similar problem of Genshin: Character cost. Specifically, the cost of building a viable unit. Unit costs are so high that it's much more efficient to focus on 2-3 dps units and the rest of their teams. Mihoyo knows this and tries to balance the game around this. Meaning that 3 enemies or 1 boss with adds is most easily cleared by all classes. If it was 5 enemies, Hunt would suffer immensly and if it was a single boss, erudition would suck. So they settled for the middle of the road because that would be the most enjoyable content for all different classes. If I happen to only like Hunt, I'll dread any aoe. And it's not like I can just raise an Erudition on the drop of a hat.
"if it was a single boss eurudition would suck."
Jing Yuan's honest reaction:
One reason I like hunt characters is because of their ability (in theory) to uniquely take down priority targets rapidly. I think the example of the exploding beetles in swarm disaster is a good idea in that direction. I really appreciate having the option to focus them down with Sushang before they explode. I do agree with your concern, but Chicken Girl is going to be on my team regardless.
And you know what's extra funny is that Qinqgque, the best Erudition character, is primarily a BLAST attacker unlike her class mates. She's really the odd one out in Erudition.
(Original comment was about a spelling mistake) Pretty interesting video, I don't even play Star Rail that much, but it's always fun watching these kinds of discussion topics.
Woops! Fixed
If you see it from a different point of view
Destruction characters have the perfrect balance of damage. On the hand tho you can say that they're made to be balanced alone. So if you add up general supports like Bronya and Tingyun (ig harmony overall) they're broken
Meanwhile Hunt and Erudition, being specialised in st/aoe, they need synergy with a team to shine.
Perfect example for now is mono quantum:
Seele: Hunt, specialised in st
Silver Wolf: Nihility, core if the team allowing Seele to hit harder + making the team universal in pretty much all content
Fu Xuan: Preservation, keeps the team alive while being a great thoughness breaker and brings slight support for the team
Qingque: Erudition, while Lynx is better for safety measures if you add Qingque you have the main dps prioritising the boss and the sub-dps priotising the mobs
Sorry for long text but my poiny being that maybe in a few patches we'll get a solid team that has Jing Yuan/Argenti as main dos whild the rest of a team have a role as well.
Cause if you look at Destruction teams rn they pretty much follow the generic formula of harmony/nihility for more damage, L U O C H A, and pretty much a free slot for another harmony/nihility since Destruction doesn't need synergy to kick *ss
I would argue they don't have 'the perfect balance' the issue fundamentally is that destruction single target matches hunts. There will never be a purpose to hunt unless their damage numbers are higher than destructions. DPS unfortunately are always the easiest to powercreep because more number = better assuming there aren't any double edge sword mechanics to make using the character difficult.
I think there are ways to fix it but as long as Mihoyo thinks destruction single target should match hunt, hunt will always be playing second fiddle until they release a super overtuned hunt character that deals 2x single target minimum of a destruction character.
@@chaselewis5372 Wait for Raiden, if she doesn't revive the hunt nothing will.
This is exactly whats wrong imo. Their "2 character per 1 patch" system makes a character that's very niche not very favourable unless theyre completing an already available niche (like topaz). A generalist will always be better than a specialist, but specialist is special in the way that, with the right synergy, they can outshine other chars. If that synergy is locked behind a 2 month wait (probably even more) than it definitely makes them seem weak. I know that character design is hard, im just stating my opinion.
Mono-quantum is a giant scam. At least until the Quantum 5* Harmony drops.
Seele is quite honestly the only Hunt to not care about Mobs--she frequently prefers having them over not simply because they allow her to get the 80% Dmg boost+20% Quantum Pen free turn that made her so broken in the first place. FX doesn't need a 2nd Sustain, and having two SP-hungry dps with only semi-positive supports means you'll run out of SP.
The 4th slot is always better with a Harmony that matches weakness to the main enemy you want to murder, since SW prioritizes applying weaknesses that the enemy doesn't have, and a harmony boosted Seele is better than having two unboosted DPS.
@@anristellariza9036 mono quantum isn't a scam, it's a jack of all trades master of none. And only thanks to SW allowing the team to work everywhere (except the new quantum resistany bug i guess)
Although rn mono quantum isn't one of the best teams, it's still the most confort one imo. And yeah... once quantum gets a harmony Seele finna cook (or a future 5* quantum dps)
0:17
In HI3, units get crept every patch, as the new unit usually replaces an old unit due to overlapping roles. Some 5*s ended up dying in one or even zero patches (Red Seele/Starchasm Nyx)
In Honkai impact, characters don't powercreep every patch since it's a game that by nature requires diverse roster due to weather system and their haven't been a consecutive release of valks covering similar role in a game since HoV release.
NYX had the shortest top DPS status in game history but she was released in 4.8 as best ice and quantum dps and her alternative ice dps SW was released in 5.4 which is 8 months later and Vill V as alternative quantum dps released in 5.9 which was over a year later that is longer than HSR entire lifetime. It's just HoR and FR were still good enough and wasn't as gear dependent as nyx so people were willing to skip Nyx
Technically that's true but not entirely, for example hersher of flameceon came out in 5.0 and the closest thing to powercreep her has been Hersher of finality and she is not used outside of the trio team or sirin in 6.9 who needs like a year of farming to get to Hof's baseline. Another example is hersher of human ego who came out 9 patches ago and is still the undisputed best ice dps, with supports as well look at celestial hymn and azure empyrea who were meta top tiers for years before they got power crept. Ultimately yes there are some niche cases where a unit get power crept soon after release but that doesn't really happen anymore, even chars who do the same thing coexist in the meta like hersher of sentience getting a revival in the meta and being viable with hersher of rebirth.
It really depends, sometimes a character can last almost 3 years as a meta unit.
some characters like fischl, pardo, eden, and HoF have been meta for years. characters like senti was meta for a very long time, even before her new divine key.
the biggest problem is that all 3 characters on a team absolutely need full gearing. it takes new players a long time to full gear and compete.
@@hikar1_ Hasn't HOF been outdated at this point?
The main problem i've noticed with characters is there are too many. Every patch gives 2 brand new units to pull. Its hard enough to pull all the ones I want but also don't have the RSS to build 2 or 3 per patch. A full rerun patch would be nice
we're still at the beginning of the game, give it some time unless you want seele to get the ayaka treatment with the 240 days banner or however long it was
@@ZenganTheFool what do you mean? You are not bound to rerun a single character at a time like Genshin lol. You can have a patch with 8 rerun characters if you wanted(2 banners at the same time * 10 days * 4 = 40 days patch), what stops you? The guy wants to pull the character he wants but didn't have the opportunity in the past. Solution: announce the rerun patch in advance and save a little bit for the character you like.
@@twothreeoneoneseventwoonefour5 they already announce those, it's what the special program is for, if you can't hold your stellar jades for more than one patch that sounds like a you problem, not a hoyoverse problem
@@ZenganTheFool again what are you talking about? The guy said that they release too much characters and he wants some reruns to slow the pace a little bit. What are you talking about?
i think they can release a nihility unit that debuff the enemy to spread damage to adjacent enemy (good for hunt)
That would be so good for hunt. They could also release a nihility anti-Fu Xuan who makes one enemy receive some damage scaling on what all the enemies took collectively, which would be the erudition version.
but that would make destructions even better, which we can see in the MOC buff
0:40 dam bro you hit us with the Pela cutscene 😭 very good Pela/Lynx companion quest
You mentioned that Erudition characters could use a way to condense their AoE damage in single target scenarios, Jing Yuan does exactly that (Lightning Lord) and it's not always enough and in worst cases, actively hurts you because the spread of the attacks with several enemies is random.
I think hunt is fine, mostly thanks to the higher speeds. Topass compliments Clara really well by leaning into her biggest weakness, and Seele is Seele. Erudition, tho? Yeah, this path probably needs a buff (maybe make their basics have blast damage?)
Erudition is the easiest to strengthen, you just have to see Qingque to realize that.
The problem with the promotional Erudition characters in the game is that they are too slow.
Jing Yuan and Argenti both focus on delivering a huge hit and this cannot compete with the attack pace that destruction characters use.
Himeko is an agglutination of all the mechanics that Erudition has but without specializing in any of them and she is mainly a secondary damage dealer.
We have to keep our eye on Tornillum, supposedly after Argenti he will be the next character of Erudition. If we take into account that now he is the closest thing to a leader that the circle of geniuses has and that he is also an emanator of Erudition by necessity and lore, he has to be a very strong character.
Honkai Star Rail Paths in a Nutshell:
Destruction: Kill Everything
The Hunt: One Enemy at a time
Erudition: Two or Three Enemies at a time
Harmony: Buffs Friends
Nihility: Debuffs Enemies
Preservation: Defense
Abundance: Healer
Is preservation like shield??
@@Zafar_Askarov Yeah Pretty Much
Destruction and Erudition should be swapped, but otherwise very accurate!
@@airleamystery4788 Funny part that other than Himeko and Herta. Other Erudition like QQ and Jing yuan (and soon Agenti) are very strong against fewer enemies.
The problem is it doesn't matter if it's one enemy at a time or more. Destruction units do a better job than Hunt or Erudition at their own playstyle
Just happened to click on your video since I recently got into star rail and just realized whose video I was watching!
I used to watch your maplestory content a ton back in the day, glad to see that you're still doing your thing!
They should make more characters like Qingque, who can dynamically distributes resources depending on the situtation during the fight. I think qingque is one of the best design in the game. When situation is in flavor of multi-targeted, you can dump all of SP to her and get strong AOE dmg. When only single target remain, she still has strong AA dmg and quantum break debuff.
That's probably because Arlan solo carries all of the destruction path's power.
To be honest, if you have Fu Xuan you can perfectly use Arlan and keep him at his maximum potential. He doesn't have the damage he had in the beta but he's still a zero cost and that's always something to keep in mind.
Smart and enjoyable analysis. Seems like you wrote a script and actually took the time to piece a good video together. So many creators just read skill descriptions, shoot off of the hip and call it content. This seems both more deep and wide than that. Keep it up friend.
Whenever this topic is mention I always say 3 things:
1. Characters are mostly balanced, and work as intended.
2. The reason why Destruction characters are the best is that current end game content is just something that you want to use Blast damage to deal with, and it will change once we get encounters that want single target or AoE damage.
3. Destruction needs to remain the best at dealing with content that wants Blast damage, otherwise we end up in a situation where the path is pointless in end game.
Now that I got that out of the way, I also want to mention few other things:
- Current Destruction meta is also a result of not having any limited 5* Harmony characters, so Bronya barely has any competition, and due to how strong she is, she ends up boosting the value of other characters depending on how well she works with them, and Destruction characters usually work the best with her mechanics, so this should be reduced once we start getting alternatives.
-We are still in early stages of the game, and characters that are released now are mostly generalists, that don't really focus too much on something, which is kinda the description of Destruction, but as time will go we will see more and more specialists like Topaz.
-For some reason people don't understand that what the game is telling you about paths is a short oversimplification, that is meant to give you a good idea of what a path usually ends up doing, but that description isn't what characters are designed around, so to give an example: Erudition is apath of the mage characters, that have big damage nukes, usually requiring somewhat specific conditions to trigger them, and the fact that they are AoE is merely a way to keep it balanced. Also they completely miss the fact that it is what they exceed at, and not the only thing that they are allowed to do (in that world we would only have like 3 unique characters for each one of the support paths).
1. Characters are not balanced in the slightest and any notion that they are is just willful ignorance or plain naivety. Erudition path is massively underperforming besides one character, the being Qingque but that's because she doesn't follow the same style of play other Erudition units do. Imbibitor Lunae trivializes everything in the game (be it in burst, aoe or single target content) because of his insane damage potential and the fact they made his E2 completely nullify any risk there is with him. Not to mention that Swarm Disaster was perfectly made with DHIL in mind considering how the new path works and how there are more Imaginary weak enemies to be found than others, especially in the last boss which is by far the hardest part of higher world levels. Luocha also massively overshadows Bailu, Lynx and Natasha in terms of raw strength and healing capabilities. There's a big powercreep happening where newer units just make old ones obsolete, and this is not balance.
2. I would argue Destruction units are currently the strongest because they just have the most options for light cones that don't require niche situations or get progressively weaker as the battle goes on. They also receive massive stat boosts that other paths don't get either on their cones or in their kits (Jingliu crit and DHIL crit rate and damage buff) or they get insane damage scalings from their attack.
3. The power of Destruction units goes far beyond just burst content. They're single target powerhouses with a touch of aoe which makes them just function like they're just better Hunt units while making them just do more damage overall than Erudition. This makes them overshadow Hunt and Erudtion units which is the result of Destruction units just not being balanced. Not to mention they're purposefully powercreeping Destruction over other paths with the game modes like Swarm Disaster. We need the current Erudition and Hunt units to keep up with the raw power of the Destruction units because as it stands Destruction is just way too strong of a path.
@@lucyc776 This is blatantly wrong. The MoC turn cycle counts of all limited characters are extremely close to each other. This is not a hard game - any limited DPS can trivialize everything in the game if they're built enough. Jingliu and IL seem OP because they overperform at low investment. I have a highly invested Seele and she's better than IL on my account overall. It really just comes down to investment
@@lucyc776 Wow, I have never seen someone that wrong.
1. Erudition characters are balanced, what they are lacking is end game content that wants AoE damage. I found it funny that you feel like you need to mention E2 of a limited 5* to prove your point. Swarm Disaster is designed with DHIL in mind, that is true, but I fail to see what it has to do with the point. Main reason why many people consider Luocha to be the best healer is that he heals a lot without having to use skill points, and is easiest to use,but outside of that other healers are actually much more useful than he is.
2. That is just a wrong, Destruction LC are generally the worst and most conditional ones in game, and characters are just balanced around that.
3. You just described Blast, and characters on other paths have similar if not better multipliers, and that is even without mentioning access to better LC's, and getting more value from buffs.
I feel like the biggest problem is that DIL and Jingliu do more dmg than seele in single target. That should never happen.
DHIL spends 3 SP and Jingliu needs to transform, they *should* do more damage than Seele. Comments like this just make me realize the people complaining about the Destruction meta is mostly just Seele mains.
@@exu7325 DHIL may need to spend 3SP and jingliu may need to transform but they also do 50% dmg to adjacent enemy WHILE still dealing more damage to the main target
So no, they shouldn't be able to do more damage than a characters fully focused on single target
And not to mention that DHIL and Jingliu ult make the "cost" more manageable
In theory, Erudition was supposed to shine in Swarm Disaster because of the constant spawning of mobs and how it rewards you by popping them off but nope, Destruction still reigns supreme in that mode with their mix of Blast and AoE attacks with solid tankiness to boot.
I don't believe the gimmick of Destruction characters are blast damage as it is also something very common in Erudition characters and even some Nihility ones.
I think Destruction's idea was to destroy something to get high damage, Jingliu costs her teammates HP, Blade and Arlan use their own HP, DHIL destroys skill points, Clara wants to get hit, and TB passive requires them to get hit too (Hook and Xueyi kinda prove me wrong though, but it's still generally true).
The real issue is, the cost is often negligible compared to the damage or the character offset it in some way (Blade's FUA, Clara's DMG reduction or DHIL ult giving him bonus SP) making the risk null, especially once paired with the various supports of the game. But if the cost is too steep, like with Arlan, nobody will play them.
Destruction characters walk a thin line where they are either too strong despite their cost or too weak to justify it (still Hook and Xueyi excluded as they have no real cost and honestly don't feel like destruction to me because of that, especially Hook).
"destroys skill points" lol
On the note of elements, the main difference between them would be their break effects, different levels of damage over time or supportive capabilities.
The big deal with Destruction is that it sacrifices some type of resource to be incredibly safe. It's simple in gameplay, capable of blowing through anything in the game, but you could find yourself in a tough spot for distributing your resources wrong in longer fights. I feel this can be very apparent in the recent Simulated Universe event's endurance fights, where JingLiu and Blade might get someone on the team killed entering the next wave while Dan Heng Blows through skill points too much to handle everything.
In my opinion, it's too early in the game's lifespan to say it's that big of a problem, considering just about everything can be beaten with a proper build around most units in the game
The issue is...there aren't any real endurance fights in HSR outside of SU, but SU gives steroids to every class, so it isn't really a real endurance test anyway. You can literally have perma-uptime on JL form just by having a single 2* Hunt Blessing, and Abundance also solves all of Blade's problems. Let's not even talk about how DanIl has an entire path made for him.
MoC being a speed-run gamemode only makes it worse, cause high-burst low-consistency characters are inherently more valuable in a gamemode where the highest prestige is in doing the entire stage in a single turn.
I have both Seele E0 and Jingliu E1, what makes Jingliu so absurd is the E1 literally turns her into Seele vs 1 target. Her motion values against a single target is the same Seele's on both her enhanced skill and her ultimate. That said I still love my Seele and she's the second best DPS on my account by a large margin. Clara, Himeko and Serval being the others.
actually, this vid made me appreciate the interesting utility of topaz & numby and potential future topaz-likes. i've been having a blast using them in double dps teams with jing yuan and himeko, although admittedly, both my topaz and himeko are fairly stacked. combining the unique strengths of hunt and erudition in a synergistic way feels like i'm not losing out on damage or coverage with a double team over a destruction hypercarry comp.
Jingliu with Blade and a healer is soooo good and yeah I agree, it doesn’t really feel the same and as cohesive with other paths. Hope they fix that in the future.
This powercreep feeling is what makes honkai impact 3rd alive, every new chacarter just outshine so hard the old ones that makes impossible to skip new characters, to me this is a honkai universe problem sinse is the same team
That's just whale cope. This game is way to expensive for people to justify pulling every patch
@@karenwang313there is no content so there is no need to pull something outside of two 5* DPS and two 5* sustainers
The Honkai 3rd meta is very annoying but once you’ve played for 2 years or more ur pretty much set. Just my opinion though 😰
But I think in part 2 they are gonna tone down the meta stuff (somehow since the bar is VERY DAMN HIGH) because new players are not gonna be able to keep up.
@@uwu-chan they can't tone down, HI3 in Nirvana is about "being the best". If they release bad unit(Vill-V), sales go down, and they can't do anything "close", one unit always will be better in competitve than another.
The Destruction Class is more defined by sacrifice than target numbers. Each unit with the exception of MC seems to trade for damage. This means there are going to be more interesting units to explore in the future
What does hook sacrifice
@@thezard7013 damage against anything that isn't burning. She is almost nihility but most of her kit targets burn
mc also sacrifices , 1 skill point to deal more dmg , or sacrificing blast for more single target
@@MaliceMajorE15a little forced. Also Himeko loses dmg on no-burned enemies😔
@@SuperKevinho1 Yeah perhaps. I'll agree hook doesnt fall completely into my suggested thesis. im only trying to find a common link as somebody on the outsdide of MHY thinking. Its justs as easy to say that each of these characters have a mechanic to enhance their attack- usually at the cost of something.
As soon as the video started, I noticed the Fire Emblem music. Nice.
I actually was just about to ask you about a really interesting article I stumbled on that hits on the same points regarding Star Rail vs Genshin and why they've essentially been driven back to Genshin despite the QoL mechanics that Star Rail has for the gacha style of gameplay both offer.
Their comment essentially boiled down to this; Star Rail has become almost exclusively FOMO as just about every single character coming out is just another flavor of 'MOARDMG!' and they basically already had all they needed by the third banner release. Genshin, by comparison, at a minimum brings a lot of personality in how characters do what they do and, at best, each approach a character has is almost wholly unique.
And I can see their point. In Star Rail I got Jing Yuan, Silver Wolf, Kafka, IL Dan Heng, Fu Xuan, and finally Topaz. I can do every single ounce of content just ham-fisting through it with IL Dan Heng using Silver Wolf (who I honestly don't even need there either; weakness break be damned) but I need a second party for MoC so it becomes whether I feel like Kafka or Jing Yuan/Topaz.
I felt no compulsion whatsoever for Seele's rerun or Jingliu because...why? Felt the same way about Blade. The ONLY one I regret is Luocha just because of how fire-forget he is for the support/healer spot, but I don't actually have to have him. I have Bailu and Fu Xuan.
Contrast that to Genshin's newest two characters whose names I won't even attempt to spell, lol. I own every character in Genshin and I saw a hydro laser and cryo fists and went, "Oh that looks cool as hell!" so I got them. Could I have done just fine with every other party I had up to that point? Yeah, but these two brought a fresher take on fights that just felt great to experience.
With Star Rail you've got DoT DPS, Skill Points DPS, and Build-Up-A-Passive DPS and every single character released feels like it only brings one thing to the table; the fact that you don't have them yet.
Something very different happens to me with Genshin, most of the characters seem unnecessary to me and the ones that I think might interest me often do not compensate me for the farming necessary to level up the character.
You have some great points but come on, ur comparing a 3 year game with a game that just came out this year. As from what I've seen, genshin also went from something like that. Its Mihoyo, they did this to Hi3 on the first years but then they actually started releasing some good and new characters just as they did on genshin (not saying the other characters are not good). Give Star Rail some time, Mihoyo mostly listens to their community and from what I've seen, especially on star rail as they keep improving things on for this game. They'll definitely get there.
I think the combat just… never really necessitates super strong single target or very spread out AoE damage. Even for bosses, they usually summon minions, so the concentrated blast aoe of destruction characters is just better than only being able to focus on one enemy or spreading out your damage too much instead of focusing most of it on the boss.
Man its about time. Im so glad this is being pointed out because genuinely it is quite concerning. I completely agree the separation dps into three classes is made redundant if you end up making a super op middle class that not only does good single target and aoe damage but also doubles as a bruiser or a tank in the process. Perhaps this could have been avoided all together in the first place if they only went with 2 damage classes like how they have 2 defense and 2 offenseive supports. But unfortunately there is no complaining about it now. The only thing I can say is being a dps not in destruction is going to be hard regarding very stiff competition in future. Destruction Privilege is real.
Sadly,this is hard to fixed.Buffs simply will not be enough to help the two classes(Hunt and Erudition).More things will need to be needed.
I do not play Star rail but my sister does and as a classical music enjoyer her theme did not escape me. "Wow this character is cool what does she do?" "She is a dps but does not deal damage" "What?" "She along with this idiot(I think his name is Sanpo?) apply so many debuffs that enemies die by themselves" She seems like that character who is never the best option but always a meta one.
It’s actually my favourite two in game. It’s so fun to watch your enemies dying from cancer of colourful silly numbers
For one, I definitely think the predominance of Blast/Destruction really is a consequence of how busted Inbibitor and Jingliu are. Power creep since 1.2 has been absolutely insane, but during that time we haven't seen a new limited Erudition character and Topaz... well, we can come back to her. I think if the current power creep trends continue, or at least flatline, Argenti will become the next meta monster and people will only be complaining about Hunt.
Secondly, I think the real future for Hunt and Erudition is in DPS+SubDPS lineups with both. If you are going to try to roll with a solo DPS, you need one that can handle all situations, both AoE and Single Target. The best way to do that is with Blast, which makes Destruction units optimal for solo carrying, bar some exceptions like Seele (who is, after all, "the fakest Hunt character").
However, if you have a DPS and a SubDPS, you can solve this issue through specialization as long as the SubDPS is relatively SP+ and supports the main DPS.
That is exactly what Topaz does, by the way. Even her optimal rotation is SP neutral, with the capacity to be SP+ without a massive DPS drop off. Furthermore, she can massively improve the Single Target DPS of AoE characters with Follow Ups. Of course, Topaz is currently held back by the fact that Erudition Follow Up attackers aren't very good right now. But as soon as a good one is released, I can guarantee that her value will sky-rocket.
Ohhh you so right actually. Destruction is more like hypercarry where you need to protect your only dps at all cost while erudition/hunt is safer way where you can lose one of your dps and still defend yourself with second one. Ohh i start to think about some teams thank you it would be fun
The thing that makes destruction characters and more specifecly blast damage is the structure of bosses. I don't know any boss fight who doesn't summon minions. Also they just really like making destruction characters cracked
We have
Eruditiona that work like The Hunt. Deal crap ton of dmg against single target.(Jing Yuan and soon Agenti).
Destruction that act like Eru(Blade , Jingliu).
Nihility that a also work like The Hunt.(Sampo and Welt).
The Hunt that play like Nihility and also act like Harmony. (Topaz)
Harmony that play like The Hunt(Asta, Yukong).
OH THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING! As someone who has seele, jing yuan and clara (among others), i can definetely say that clara is the best out of 3 of them. First of all, my seele simply doesn't one shot everything, so it makes her value less, jing yuan does mid dmg (in my opinion, it would be best if the 10 stacks would hit all the enemies 10 times and not like one enemy 2 times, the other 1, the other 3 and so on.) and in order to have him in a team, you need to be evry careful about how you're spending skill points, so it's hard to run him with some supports. When you pair him up with bronya, let's say that he uses his skill, bronya uses her skill on him and he uses his skill again. It's 3 skill points, not even counting potencial other supporting characters, so it's hard to use him in memory of chaos where rounds matter. Clara though has aoe dmg (her skill), single target dmg (her aa), but it doesn't deal much dmg and then her passive. When you proc her ulti, she deals the blast dmg and it's a LOT of dmg. Her follow-up attacks can be crucial when you need more rounds like in memory of chaos, so she's just very good. Her dmg output is also very good. When i use her, i don't feel the need for either an erudition character or the hunt character, because she simply deals overall more dmg as a distruction character (like you've pointed out in the video). Imo they have to give some buffs to (especially) erudtion characters, because honestly, you simply dont need them when you have blade, clara, jingliu or dan heng. They do enough aoe dmg. As for the hunt, sometimes it's better to use them instead of destruction, but still, destruction as of now is simply too op.
This has nothing to do with paths but with damage multipliers.
Remember, Physical MC, Hook and Arlan are all destruction characters who are the worst characters in the game.
If they would have made Jing Yuans multipliers higher, this video wouldnt even exist now. They just created Dan Heng IL, who for whatever reason has insanely high damage multipliers. No one was saying anything about Blade because he is in the same ball park as Seele and Kafka.
Classes do not determine strength of a character
I think paths do in part matter. Hunt characters focus on single target, so they're uncomfortable in blast or aoe scenarios, meanwhile erudition characters are purely AOE and fall behind in single target. Destruction tends to have blast/3-target damage, which allows them to be good in both aoe, blast and single target content. Blast/3-target is also by far the most common kind of encounter, with most bosses having a couple trash mobs or summons. All this combined with the fact that we've simply seen more destruction characters than most other paths means that destruction appears much stronger than it is per se.
I agree with you. For whatever reason they decided to go nuts with IL multipliers and ruin a game with it (even Jingliu is not broken to that exetent as him). It will probably a be a downward spiral to doom and power creep from now on. I am still playing it for now but we will see for how long.
@@doublereel-real No you are completely misunderstanding the point.
Again, paths have nothing do with that.
Look at Serval, Himeko and QQ. They are "Blast" characters (single target + small aoe), yet they are erudition characters. And they are all bad except QQ. Not because of their path but because she just deals more damage.
Kafka, NIHILITY -> works like a Destruction unit.
Also another misconception about the game favoring multiple enemies.
When Seele released, everyone and their mother was screaming how this game favors single target damage because small enemies die in 1-2 hits anyway and the big bosses are the problems.
And Hunt characters do have ways to access aoe. Topaz -> 2 attacks per turn. Seele -> chaining attacks, Sushang -> ult gives extra action.
Then Jing Yuan released, who had skill + ult for aoe clearing, and a big, strong single target talent, that also allows for aoe clearing. Why was his "mid"? Because his damage modifiers were too low.
If IL and Jingliu would be "A tier" non of your arguments would make any sense because they wouldnt deal enough single target damage to justify being aoe on top.
You also conveniently ignored physical MC, Hook and Arlan. Who should be according to you really strong because they are destruction.
@@xSkailserval and himeko only do blast damage on their skills. the bulk of their damage is probably going to be on their full aoe talents and ults. also hook *is* good. as someone who has very limited 5 star characters, she's a solid f2p-friendly DPS. she just doesn't center her damage around blast, so that's why she isn't in this discussion. phys MC is a starter so they're really just there for you to understand the ropes of combat, and arlan is uh... he honestly just feels like a sign of hyv colourism. I don't think I've ever seen hyv give so much potential to a character, then rip it all away in an instant.
My seele used to be one of the best seeles out there and her dmg was just great but since I have gotten Jingliu, she completely destroyed seele when it comes to real DMG numbers and I was amazed how exceptional a destruction character is and my jingliu isn't really that great build-wise.
As a new Seele haver I think having distrutcion charecters made me worried If I get her or not but I pulled her cuz she's fun!
as long as your seele can finish MOC then theres really no problem at all.
Yup, game is still young. The developers know what they’re doing. Expect enemies in the future that incentive hunt and erudition.
Destruction characters are meant to be berserkers. They're meant to be risky, and risk is supposed to correspond to damage. The more risk you have, the more damage you do.
After getting Clara, I've rarely put erudition in my teams. They're just not versatile enough and pretty much only good for clearing easy enemies and terrible for boss fights. Now that I got Jing Liu, I now have 2 destruction in the same team. 😅
I'm maybe going to be controversial, but I think HSR didn't need Destruction. Most of Destructions could have happily been either Erudition (Blade, Jingliu, IL), Hunt ( Arlan and physical TB, both with a little rework of kit) or Preservation (Clara) units. Instead I would have made a differentiation between dotters and non-dotting debuffers by creating the Remembrance path (examples would be Welt, Pela and SW) or creating the Elation path for characters of various roles with follow ups (Himeko, Kurukuru, Clara, March, Yangqing - obviously some reworks would have been needed)
we actually do have a dps character with the what i think best mix of aoe and single target power destruction should be aim towards in the form of Welt
despite being a nihility debuff character with dps potential he feels more like a dps with some debuffs for added flavor
but his kit feels extremely well tuned to balance single target and aoe in an almost equal way
his basic attack that gains bonus instances of damage for seemingly no reason but also has a decent damage output if you need single target damage but theres more than one enemy
his skill being a bounce attack means its very good when theres just 1 target but still deals passable aoe dmg when theres more than one while his ultimate is at its peak dmg potential with alot of enemies present while it falls off when theres just 1 target as opposed to his skill where its the strongest when just hitting a single enemy 3 times
on top being a standart character getting 1-2 eidolons for him is also on more reasonable side
and his eidolon one gives him even more damage from using his ultimate even against just 1 target
if we look at his e6 now his skill hits 4 times making both its aoe dmg better as well its single target damage skyrocket
We may just need support effects that strictly give a bonus to hunt/erudition kinda like how lynx taunt only applies to preservation/destruction. Also i think Jing and Topaz suffer partially due to poor follow up support; I think backloaded damage should have more support options than raw damage because you have to sacrifice time and risk damage.
One slight correction. The max is 5 normal enemies. Enemies that swarm have a higher limit. I've seen as many as 8 on the screen before. The game probably relegates them as lesser enemies due to their lower hp than normal or bosses. That did seem like a unique factor for a specific boss though.
That was also a long time ago. I'm not sure if that was a glitch that got patched or anything either. They were summonable enemies. They summoned those bird enemies.
If only there was a balance patches instead of left characters as they are no matter what, even if it's a Xianyan who literally has non functional kit or Herta who should follow-up every single time an ally hit an enemy below 50% with her damage, but instead somehow got nerfed after a beta, yet Jingliu is totally balanced...
I don't know about other people, but I personally didn't pull fir Topaz not because she's a hunt unit... but because I didn't like the vibes I got from her in the story, and also because her animations don't focus around her (and with how attractive she is... they definitely should have).
People seems to be forgetting that Ganyu, Hutao and Zhongli are all released in the first 6 months of Genshin....
Also seem to forget that 2 of the consensus best of their class, Xingqiu for Sub-DPS and Bennett for support, were available at launch. Also it isn't really fair to put Zhongli there cause he was actually bad at release. He was so bad at release Mihoyo actually buffed him due to the outrage of how bad he was.
I believe that i've come up with idea where Erudition might be king.
New enemy with special mechanic:
If you hit them but do not hit every single other enemy on arena, they do counter damage or debuff you or heal you. Yeah idea doesnt stick when A. There are only 3 enemies and you can use destruction with blast. Or there are more than 3, but your erudition deals damage to one +2 adjecant and not everyone (himeko skill, serval skill etc)
So yeah still underdeveloped and probably blast is still best, but i dont see others coming up with solutions much.
one thing to mention: if bosses summon ads, and if you kill the boss, the ads auto-die.
I use Yanqing, Jing Yuan, Blade, and Dan Heng IL on my accounts, and I absolutely feel what you are talking about. And it's discouraging and makes me want to stop using my first two DPS's, even though I love them still.
But even though I feel this way, I try to show the two of them extra love to make up for it. I even managed to pull Topaz, which I'm hoping she and Jing Yuan will make a great team together.
As someone who recently played HI3 before retiring for a bit, the whole meta changing quickly thing was prevalent. I remember starting around Pardo's release, and while she's still a good support with her gear, we all know Shigure Kira has taken her spot, especially since there's a boss mechanic she more easily deals with. Pardo will still live on in my heart forever though 😂
People are missing the forest for the trees. Yes Destruction is meta, but it has to be by nature. Generalists > Specialists. Seele is the exception, not the rule. Unless they print out hunt units with resurgence mechanics like Seele, they will always be a little less meta than their destruction peers.
If Hunt was meta, erudition would feel so much weaker due to their pure aoe nature and vice versa. Case and point, Yanqing.
the problem with seele is that shes realeased very early, so it became the standard for hunt. the exception excuse only valid if she was released way later
@@razrafz And Yanqing is released in 1.0 lol. ST DPS will struggle with adds and AOE DPS will struggle with bosses. Seele is the exception because she has turn manipulation. Still don't get it? It means Seele doesn't have to waste her turns popping adds.
Well the issue pointed in the video is not that Destruction is meta
The issues is that the generalist are equal or better at the job of the specialist themselves
Destruction characters can have single target damage rivaling what hunt can do and it's not something that should be possible because they are like you said : generalist
Destruction should be Jack of all trade master of none but actually they are closer to Jack of all trades master of all
Everyone and their mother is being sponsored by Nikke in the past week
I'd consider QQ to have blast attacks since here basic gets enhanced and hits three opponents instead of one. She doesn't loose any damage if there is only one enemy left.
I think the perfect example of a Destruction character that isn't broken that is still consistent and strong, is Blade. He sacrifices HP, but also benefits when sacrificing HP, whether it's damage or healing from his follow-up.
Destruction should be about the dance between 1-100% HP of the characters, while also being able to deal higher damage based on HP of either the character or the party. It's a very satisfying playstyle for me.
12:58 bro predicted argenti's kit
I find it funny considering the Hunt Path was all the Meta back in 1.0 and it’s only been 4/5 patches since then and it’s now Destruction
they gonna release content where you have to kill enemies simultaneously or the other will revive. THAT'S when you'll cry for an erudition unit. say a swarm of 5 need to be killed all at the same cycle etc. ERUDITION will be mandatory. either revive or heal eachother with equal HP pool. I know it will be somewhat niche, but patches for now favor destruction unit (enjoy it) but with time we know hoyo renders characters less effective during certain patches when other mechanic shines much better.
I think they do understand this, which is why Topaz turned out more supportive. You can now slot her onto a team with 2 dps, second one having good aoe , and not lose out too much in terms of buffs. I think there will be variations of Hunt and Erudition that follow this concept as subdps/buffers, along with the Seele/Jing Yuan types that deal raw damage in line with their path. Destruction focuses on sacrificing some type of resource to deal damage, which can make it more of a wildcard and jack of all trades. Definitely, most cost effective units have been destruction. I have no doubts they will have content--including MoC-- that will be tailored more to hunt and erudition paths during banner cycles that don't have destruction units in them. This MoC still had Jingliu in mind, but it clearly benefited Topaz with the damage spread, so she could just focus on attacking the elites with the mark.
"Consumes 180 Energy and deals Physical DMG equal to 280% of Argenti's ATK to all enemies, and further deals DMG for 6 extra time(s), with each time dealing Physical DMG equal to 95% of Argenti's ATK to a random enemy." They already making argenti erudition character that will nuke single target better than dan and jingliu
honkai impact didnt have powercreep until hov came out but its not a time scale thing its juss a change in philosophy thing for the team they prolly figured it out that they make more money doing this
I feel like Clara and Blade are the only true destruction characters that fit the description of their role. Their brusers, the more damage they take, the more damage they do. Even Arlan takes his own hp to deal skill damage without skill points. But once Danheng came out, he kinda just destroyed the definition of what a destruction character even is. He just does a shit ton of damage, at the cost of nothing but skill points. Jingliu might take her party'a hp, but her damage isn't limited by getting attacked by the enemy like blade or clara. I wish hoyoverse stuck with the, "if you get attacked, you deal more damage" gimick that clara set for destruction characters and instead, make Erudition characters have the blast attacks. Hunt should be kept the same.
And the best : Jingliu "sacrifice" is almost nothing
Like it cost so little HP, it's indecent
You know what’s the real problem with Destructions (except Blade and Clara ofc)? It’s the fact that none of them are able to auto. Try autoing with Jingliu (especially when you have Bronya) or DHIL. See what happens.
love the three houses music outro
meta is volatile and influenced by current content and character releases. MoC changes to suit the banner character, and we had destruction units for like three patches in a row, meanwhile it's uncertain where SU will go next (imagine if the next SU path did to Jing Yuan what propagation did to QQ).
Path of elation: For each instance of toughness damage done, buff stat or advance turn
now have the last boss be 4-5 moderately strong enemies with lightning weakness