I find the camera angle changes in the presentation a bit unnecessary, sudden, and disconcerting. Its fine with me if you talk straight to camera. Great information however. Thanks👍
This is a great format! A little more depth on interesting topics is always welcome, and a great way to differentiate yourselves from the wave of AI slop that's now flooding the world.
I like the format and Kates slightly snarky humor! ... I don't always agree with you but I do keep watching. If we were all the same it would be a dull world
Yes! This format (and your presentation style, Kate) are great. The info presented here was a nice balance of “technical for lay person” and “ironic Kate”: perfect. And: such good news about battery chemistry in-general.
It's very nice format of video and very interesting topic, I like it. I do have one suggestion, when rolling off loads of numbers about different things, it's extremely easy for those numbers to just blur into each other and loose the plot. For example the part of this video when you were specifying the probabilities of car fires. I have a suggestion, as you list of numbers if the relevant numbers appeared on the screen as you speak then it would be easier to follow. So with the car fires if you just had "Petrol 0.2345y54%" appear on the screen when you said that number and when you say the number for LFP then "LFP 0.00002545352%" will appear on the screen when you say that number, then it's easier to follow a continuous flow of numbers and easily see which one is bigger. Just a suggestion, but this was a cool video.
No, it's a bunch of hopium. First, she assumes cars will need no maintenance as they age. This is simply categorically false. All cars, whether it is a real car or an EV needs excessive maintenance with age ALONE. Not even miles. Just age. Cars are loaded with rubber that goes hard. Expensive parts too. Every part of the suspension is loaded with rubber that does not age well even just sitting in a garage. The brakes will need extensive maintenance especially on an EV. Not only are EVs heavier, but the brakes are not frequently used. The calibers will need replacement because of that. The brake lines rot. God only knows how often the charging system will need to be entirely replaced. They are not field serviceable. The computers too. There are thousands of 90s and early 2000s cars failing because of bad capacitors in the ECM. They don't just stop working, they work long after they should be repaired. That might sound good, but if you let capacitors go, you need to replace the entire board. They have acid in them that pee all over the board and destroy the board. Since there are no symptoms, you don't know this damage is being done until the traces are finally eaten through. Again, they are not field serviceable. Garages and dealerships simply are not set up to deal with these failures. They are thousands of Dollars to replace if they are even still made. It's not jsut the ECM. Modern cars of all types are LOADED with chips and circuit boards. There is no end to things that go wrong with ALL cars. She also assumes the batteries will last the life of the car. They won't. The oldest cars on the road still being registered as ordinary cars and daily driven are like 25 years old. That is the typical lifespan of these cars. These batteries won't last 15 years. 10-12 years if you are lucky. Replacements are likely to cost more than the car is worth.
@@tarstarkusz She literally says the batteries will outlast the vehicles themselves, but go ahead and charge those windmills. But then you go on to argue the opposite point... which is it? The cars won't last or the batteries won't last?
@@patreekotime4578 She's literally wrong. The batteries will not outlast the cars. They will be lucky to last 12 years. The AVERAGE age of a car on the road in the US TODAY is 12.8 years. That means roughly half are older than 13 years. There are hundreds of thousands of 1999-2001 cars on the road This is the lifespan of a car made then, about twice the mean or 26 years. If you had paid attention, you would have known she said they wouldn't need maintenance and repairs as they age because they are EVs and not cars. The EVs can last. But they won't last without expensive repairs. That was my point. Old cars are cheaper up front, but they cost a lot of money to keep in good repair. But that is only IF someone is willing to dump over 10 grand into a 12 year old car (assuming the battery actually makes it 12 years). Very few people would put a new engine and transmission in a 12 year old car. The cost often exceeds the value of the car. Of course, all this assumes the motor lasts the full 25 years.
@@tarstarkusz There are plenty of EVs still on the road that are 12 years old running the original batteries. And those have batteries that by todays standards are ancient technology. Of the EVs that have required full battery replacements, they were either factory defects or they were taxi cabs being abused far beyond what normal people do. So your fear tactic that next year they will all mysteriously need new batteries is just silly. And EVs absolutely require less maintence than ICE cars: fewer brake replacements, no oil changes, no engine work, no transmission work as they typically just have single speed gear boxes. Its just logic: fewer moving parts means fewer things to break. And the anecdotes of long time EV owners and the statistics from fleet management companies agrees. Compare that to ICE cars that often need engine overhauls and new transmissions before 100k miles. Repairs and maintence often rack up well over $10k in less than 25 years. But no, cant mention that!
@@patreekotime4578 Wrong on all counts. EVs do not require less maintenance or if so, by a very small amount. EVs have plenty of systems that are just as vulnerable to breaking down and aging as any car. HVAC, suspension, cooling system, 500 sensors all over the car. Rotting brake lines, ceased calibers (more likely on EV), changing fluids. There are 10k things to go wrong in an EV. Plus, the battery with many thousands of separate parts in it. Plus the rectifier. Plus the inverter. Plus the electric motor. Plus the transmission (no, don't argue, it's a transmission, just a simpler one. It needs maintenance.) In many places in the US, it is already more expensive to drive an EV than a gas engine if you have to fast charge. BULLSHIT! There are no cars being made today that require an overhaul of the engine and transmission at 100k miles. ANY car that needs an overhaul at 100k miles has not been maintained. 99% of cars go the junkyard with a perfectly running engine and transmission. It's the many thousands of dollars of non-engine and non-transmission parts that go bad. Many EV batteries well under 12 years old need to be replaced already. A minor accident is now totally unfixable EVs due to the battery. Hyundai said a new battery cost 60 THOUSAND Dollars after the most minor of collision with a driver hitting a piece of debris on the road. It put a dent in the battery and NOBODY wanted to sign off on it being safe. Brand new car totaled because of a small dent under the car. This was just one very well covered case. This is happening now every single time there is even minor damage to the battery compartment. Nobody can guarantee that battery is not damaged and will not KILL a family with children when it catches fire in the middle of the night while charging in their attached garage. NOBODY wants to be on TV next to the picture of a dead child. No shop owner. No manager at any dealer. No car company executive. At a minimum, they are going to get sued. Juries DO NOT LIKE dead kids. I'm not trying to dramatic here. This is reality. These EV fires are quite destructive. Any minor problem inside the battery can set a chain reaction. Nobody wants to take the chance. This is driving EV insurance through the roof. When the car is totaled, the insurance has to pay. Tesla is the single most expensive car in America to insure. EVs in general are a lot more expensive to insure even adjusting for their high costs. EVs are a pipe dream. Close to 35% of Americans do not own a garage or otherwise have access to off street parking. If you don't live in a big city, you have no idea what a challenge this is. They cannot be fast charged with every cycle. Tesla won't even let you do it.
Loving this video style! It’s chill and isn’t overwhelming. Would love more little discussions like this for things that need more context than the weekly short shorts don’t have time for. Maybe this would be a good format for discussing some short short points also? ❤
At 8:30 I've "known" for about two decades that periodic high discharge and charge can help with dendrites since the old school lead acid conversion ppl shared such wisdom... Yes, PbA isn't Li, yet they share this issue. Cool separater info for mitigating thermal runaway...
How about an article on static batteries and especially for home use. Here, weight and volume are of minor considerations and price and longevity are paramount. Think how much Li would be freed up for vehicles if all home batteries (and commercial batteries) didn't use any Li - especially when recycling really ramps up and all the Li from static applications becomes available for EVs
That would increase prices. The greater production volume, the lower the unit price. There is no shortage of lithium, there is a permitting delay in lithium refining - red tape slowing everything down as usual.
I've been following battery tech news for 20 years, and there's always a stark difference between lab expectations and the eventual product that rolls out of factories. Lab promises 20+% improvements in a few years, 5-10 years later we get 3-5% improvements. I stopped getting excited about lab results 10 years ago...
I agree that every day there's another battery break through that never happen I suspect that that may happen in various sciences but I am not attuned to those ologies I am surprised that I actually clicked on this video because I swore off However, as the other post said, battery technologies have been moving ahead quite nicely I am just impatient for capacitors that have one nanometer thick insulator that can withstand very high temperatures, high physical stresses, and will not breach with very high voltages and a one nanometer thick high temperature superconductor that can withstand high voltages and physical stresses Capacitor with those qualities will make batteries obsolete in most applications
I'm waiting for something. Either new batteries, or a small car with NACS that doesn't need an adapter. My only charging option is a Tesla supercharger just down the street, no 240V on the outside of the house or anywhere near, and I don't drive enough to really need one. If I could just go in the morning when the chargers are empty and fill it up once a week while I get groceries, I'd be set.
Why not use an adapter? I use one every day with my Tesla, because my in-home charging station is J1772. I don't see any reason a person couldn't just use the opposite adapter so that they could use a Supercharger station. Now, granted, the US market is still pretty top-heavy in terms of cost. But there are cars like the Bolt (momentarily discontinued, but it'll be back and if cost is a concern, you might want to buy used anyway, which is even cheaper). Not to say you really should buy an EV...you do you. If you don't want to get an EV right now, you shouldn't. If you don't drive that much, maybe don't even bother with a car. There are other transportation alternatives that are generally cheaper than car ownership, especially for a person who doesn't drive much in the first place. Just be realistic about the "why not". :)
Hi Kate and the TE team,greetings from the U.K. excellent coverage of these emerging technologies. I need to check my BMW i3 battery pack for photon torpedoes after watching this, but I didn’t pick up an Hitch Hickers references in this one; shame. Anyway, back to reality, (which was extracted from a small piece of fairy cake). Lots of rainbow love.🌈
Lyten is already producing Sodium-Sulfur batteries and supplying them to automobile manufacturers for testing with about twice the energy density of the best current Nickel based (NCM/NCA) chemistries. Their's have been proven to retain over 90% of capacity after over 1,000 full charge (0 to 100%) cycles. Meaning 20 to 30 years on an EV since they never do such extreme charges/discharges. They will be in production vehicles before the end of this decade. The reason Lithium-Sulfur batteries (and yes, they are in use today) have needed such high temperatures is that Monoclinic Sulfur is required for them and it has only remained stable at very high temperatures. But a discovery of using a vapor deposition technique to infuse it into either carbon nanotubes or carbon fibers, was discovered to contain it in such state at room temperature or much colder. As in down to (minus) -80C. Drexel University's discovery have been tested to maintain their batteries capacity at over 90% after 4,000 full charge/discharge cycles. And yes, Lithium-Sulfur can hold up to 5 times the amount of Lithium Ion as the best battery chemistries in use today at 1/3 the weight.
Thank you, this format works well and will look forward to see what comes next. And thank you for also pointing out that there is every reason to expect EVs to last longer than the life cycle we have come to expect from ICE vehicles. I see the biggest barrier is just changing peoples mindset. Two years ago I swapped my Renault Zoe for a high mileage Model S (with free supercharging). I cover a lot of miles and like to venture into Europe quite often, so my car has now covered 267,000 miles. It would have gone straight through the MOT 3 weeks ago but I couldn't get the new tyres in time so failed on the front tyres, but everything else was a pass, just like last year. We need more frequent and affordable public transport and legislation needs overhauling to allow for micro mobility. ie practical assistance for e-bikes, e-cargo bikes and if that means insurance and register any device above a certain level of performance, then fine but make it fair and workable. I'm partially disabled and can't pedal any more, the throttle assistance on e-bikes in the UK and EU is pathetic and dangerous. 16mph leaves you a sitting duck in 30moh traffic!! And frankly the power allowed on e-cargo bikes will never work on the hills in Devon and many other parts of the UK. Those that say that an increase in power and speed on these bikes will lead to more accidents are probably right, but it will also lead to less accidents involving cars and vans, if e-bikes and e-cargo bikes became a sensible and practical alternative. And a high street with half a dozen cargo bikes delivering to businesses is far less cluttered than the same street with half a dozen vans delivering. I qualified as an MV technician after I left school (40+ years ago) and so I've been involved in tinkering (and years ago, motorsport) for a long time. I look at my current car and the large numbers of older Zoes, Leafs etc and can't help thinking that there is an opening to improve on these older cars, ie small aero modifications to improve efficiency and other tweaks that were not possible when new. I am sure that many of these cars can be kept relevant and useful by modest updates after several years of use. I'm lucky in that Tesla send updates regularly, but with modern tech there is no reason why updates couldn't be retro fitted to other EVs to keep them practical. But i think whatever it takes to keep old but perfectly usable electric cars and vans from being scrapped has to be a good thing. Part of the transition has to be to make fewer products and make them last much longer.
My first encounter with silent electric vehicles was a bus that "buzzed" me in Manchester UK, the fact that I didn't hear it gave me the clue - I was at an electronics symposium at the Uni. It ran on "sulphur" batteries that needed 50°C to run (trade papers informed me). Clearly running at temperature was a significant drawback. Energy density was probably an issue too.
Let's face it, we are VERY early on the technological development of vehicular batteries. General battery advancement languished for many decades, until lithium ion tech showed promise and certain people in the world determined we needed to stop buring stuff. Money started flowing into research in a big, big way. It's way too early to pick a winner or even a favorite, but eventually there will be only a handful of fully developed, high capacity, lightweight, long life battery frameworks to choose from for vehicles. Heck, Archimedes described the screw pump in 234 BC and it took centuries before we got the the Space Shuttle main engine high pressure turbo-pump that operated at 28,120 rpm, 4,350 psi and had 23,260 horsepower. Batteries will get there, but some patience is needed.
You're pretty funny, as well as pretty Kate, just love your personality! I thought a two seater taxi is perfect for most situations, there are four seater cars as well from the same stable. If they ever make a battery with over 2000 watts per kg then long haul jet travel will surely be possible!
12:00 - this picture is a perfect illustration of the biggest problem with how we do, and think about, transportation. Two Barcaloungers, a love seat behind them, a full-sized closet in the back and a refrigerator in front - almost a studio apartment's worth of furniture - and a battery and motors big enough to accelerate the lot of it at 1g off the line for hundreds of miles - all to get _one dude_ from A to B. Multiply that by hundreds of thousands, or millions, in the space of a metro area - with the road space required to carry them, and the space required to store them at both A and B - and you've created a situation in which the _only_ way to get from A to B is with a motor vehicle, because everything's too spread out to do it any other way. This is the case, regardless how the vehicles are powered or piloted. It's not about politics, or "culture", or muh freedumz - it's about geometry, arithmetic, and physics. I'm always glad when you (this channel and your friends Kryten et al. back in the old country) make a point to note that the solution is _not_ simply to replace all the existing ICE vehicles with EVs, but rather to provide more efficient modes of transportation (with the accompanying changes in land use patterns) so that far fewer private vehicles are needed, for the much reduced number of use cases that call for them.
We should all be concerned about exploitation and especially child labour in the DRC and elsewhere, but don't be fooled into thinking that ending the use of cobalt in EVs will end the suffering or relieve the desperation of the people. When an artisanal cobalt mine closes, those exploited workers will simply be exploited in one of the many artisanal gold or copper mines, or the meager earnings they make in the mines will be reduced to zero, making life even harder for them.
Another biochemist who gets headaches from too much inorganic chemistry. The Orgel diagram will always stick with me, not because I ever completely understood them or have ever used them after I finished the exam, but because I was studying for the exam on September 11, 2001.
Oh PS if you know anyone in Cornwall that would be interested, I know of a lovely 2015 Model S P85D with 56,000 miles on it and free supercharging, it is in Penzance
1.8% battery degradation per year seems quite high to me, decent quality ICE cars should last 20 years now. I'd like to think in a few years aftermarket battery replacement becomes commonplace, maybe giving EVs greater ranges than when new.
Go to a Christian Church and ask for an automobile blessing with holy water sprinkling and incense wafting around the car yearly to improve battery longevity ..
Single point of reference: my 11 year old Tesla Model S battery has lost a little more than 16% of its capacity since new, which works out to 1.5% of original capacity lost each year. I didn't do the math -- seems too complicated to bother with at the moment -- but I wouldn't be surprised if that works out to 1.8% of _current_ capacity each year (i.e. the first year sees more decline, because capacity is higher...as the capacity goes down, 1.8% loss removes smaller and smaller amounts of capacity). Still, in spite of this and in spite of the fact that the car has the smallest battery originally available (60 kWh), it still has plenty of range for day to day driving. I charge to 80% except if heading out on a long trip -- which is almost never -- and still don't come close to depleting the battery on a typical day of driving. It will take _many_ more years before the battery has degraded so much that the car would be useless without a battery replacement. Newer EVs have larger batteries and are mostly more efficient than older ones (not counting the trend of inherently inefficient pickups and SUVs getting on the EV bandwagon, and even there they are at least still better efficiency wise than the ICE equivalent). Given that my aging Model S is still likely to easily make it to the 20 year mark, I've no doubt a modern EV sold today would do so as well. Especially since there is so much less that go wrong with the rest of the car, as compared to ICE models.
How about a run through the big battery breakthroughs from 1, 3, 5, and 10 years ago and follow up with their status today. Love your channel. We’re Not gonna be impressed.
here is the problem reporting these breakthroughs even if there is all kinds of tech coming through these will only come to market in 5-10 years or never. Lots of things to look over like pricing actual building and possible problems as well as safety. So yeah they have lots of new tech but the chances of them ever getting to market is extremely unlikely
Love the length, but I want better graphics explaining the concepts, I end up getting mesmerized by you talking and I stop listening, best film makers know, Show don't Tell. The asides work well to break up the content, but get an A.I. to fill in what you are saying with matching video.
I don't appreciate the blasé manipulation of stats. The collateral damage caused by EV fires is off the charts compared to a comparable ICE vehicle fire with I am sure EV fires causing more human casualties.
1:40 BULLSHIT. The average age of a car on the road in the US is 13 years. That means the typical life is 25-26 years. Furthermore, battery degradation is is not linear. A 1.8% per year is not continuous. It will get worse after a few years. Even if it was, it still will be unacceptable by 15 years.
You have it backwards. Battery degradation is faster up front, then it stays pretty mild for a thousand or so cycles (so multiple hundred thousand miles for most EVs,) then it gets faster again. And "average age" does not mean "double is the typical life". That's not how statistics work. It could mean a ton of vehicles last to 15 years then are retired. That's one of the problems with many of these types reports - they don't give all the detail unless you pay a bunch of money for access to the full report. The press release just says "average", not mean or median. In 2018, before buying my first EV, my "fleet average" of the 3 vehicles I owned was 19 years. Today it's 3 years. Of the 3 vehicles I owned in 2018, two of those ICE vehicles are no longer on the road - completely removed from service. (One lost in an accident and the insurance company sold it to a wrecking yard, the other we chose to sell to a wrecking yard as it was beyond fiscally reasonable repair by the time it was replaced.) The third is in use (sold to a family member after HIS near-identical vehicle was damaged beyond reasonable repair and retired.) I can't find a similar analysis recently, but in 2012 a blog did an analysis on just that discrepancy - while the average age of vehicles was increasing - it was mostly that ages in the MIDDLE were increasing. The oldest vehicles count stayed steady: misunderstoodfinance.blogspot.com/2014/05/increasing-share-of-older-autos-on-road.html (So no, "most vehicles" don't live to 25 years. There is a huge drop-off at the end of the "11-20 years old" mark. This was right at the tail end of the last recession, and you can see the drop in new car sales over the recession years, and the spike in 11-20, as people that would have retired a vehicle chose to hang on to it a few more years instead during the recession. Likely we're in similar spot now, at the end of the COVID new-car-sales plunge. In 5 years (barring another Inmate P01135809 presidency) we'll likely see a return to the long-term average again.
@@AnonymousFreakYT I agree with the bulk of your rebuttal. But I would nitpick and take issue with the implication that "average" isn't a valid or well-defined metric. Using a median would, for sure, give a better indication of age on a per-unit basis. But even without access to the full studies (and since the main data comes from the US Bureau of Transportation Statistics, it's not like the data is actually hidden), we can still understand what "average" actually means in this context. That is, these figures really are talking exactly about the sum of the age of all registered vehicles, divided by the total number of vehicles. That said, knowing what "average" means here doesn't make the statistics any more concerning, and certainly you're right that you can't just double the average to come up with a "typical" vehicle lifetime. Indeed, at least two important factors would be completely ignored in such an assertion. To elaborate on points you already made so well: 1) there is a much longer "tail" on the other side of the average, because there's a lower bound on age (i.e. brand new) while there's no theoretical upper bound; there aren't as many extremely old vehicles, but they do exist, and each one has an outsized effect on the calculated average; and 2) the average age is very much significantly affected by historical sales trends. On the latter point, the average has crept up not only because vehicles last much longer, but because vehicles sales are down. New cars are much less affordable (as an aside, this is even more true for EVs sold in the US), and a surge in sales some 6-14 years ago (i.e. roughly between the 2008 recession and the 2020 pandemic) produces a larger segment of cars in that age range, than for newer cars sold more recently in fewer numbers. (A related factor to the sales numbers is that more and more people are reducing their dependency on cars. We have a long way to go before most US cities can truly be considered healthy, livable, not-car-centric cities, but lots of progress has been made on the front and the long term trend is necessarily going to be fewer and fewer car sales, translating to the average age increasing.) This is all very similar to average age of human beings. E.g. in the US the average age is increasing, and some of that is increased longevity, but much more of it is just lower birth rates which means smaller generational cohorts. US life expectancy is starting to trend downward again, and yet even with that happening, for now the average age of a US resident is still increasing. The two, while loosely related, cannot be viewed as mathematically tied. (Though interestingly, to me anyway, is that when you do a web search for "average age of US resident", both Bing and Google return _median_ age -- arguably the more useful number -- and yet searching for "median age of US vehicle" both search engines do the opposite, i.e. return results documenting the average age. I.e. in both cases, you simply cannot get both average and median. It seems the published statistics have decided how to present the figures and don't provide alternative views.)
Thanks, Kate! This format works well for smaller and related news items needing more depth.
Love the delivery style Kate. Appreciate the amount of work in research and effort put in to the teams videos. Keep up the good work.
Love this format and update!
I find the camera angle changes in the presentation a bit unnecessary, sudden, and disconcerting. Its fine with me if you talk straight to camera. Great information however. Thanks👍
I love the format.
Loved the, "Eh. Thanks very much Nikki." Brilliant execution.
Great delivery Kate - excellent factual summary of battery development news, delivered with some witty humour ❤
Love the old school Silicon Graphics t-shirt
My entire grad school experience in the 80’s was lived in front of some sort of Silicon Graphics machine.
Check the link in the show notes to buy one (or something similar!)
One of my good friends from college went to work for SGI in 1991. Memories...
I really like the format. Very interesting update on batteries. My only question is where you got a mint-condition SGI t-shirt.
Thanks for keeping us updated on the latest developments in battery technology. 👍🇨🇦🇺🇸
I think this format worked really well!
This is a great format! A little more depth on interesting topics is always welcome, and a great way to differentiate yourselves from the wave of AI slop that's now flooding the world.
Format works for me. Keep up the good work
Lovely video. Thanks
wow, this video was pretty nerdy. keep up this nerd level, i like it.
Hey, I sat at a Silicon Graphics work station 25 years ago playing with protein structures 🙂
Format works good for me~
I like the format and Kates slightly snarky humor! ... I don't always agree with you but I do keep watching. If we were all the same it would be a dull world
Excellent and funny! Well done.
Great video, thanks from Sweden!
Yes! This format (and your presentation style, Kate) are great. The info presented here was a nice balance of “technical for lay person” and “ironic Kate”: perfect. And: such good news about battery chemistry in-general.
This format works very well for me. Smaller informative videos more often is my preference.
I enjoyed the format and content cheers
Great job!
Love the more in-depth look at this news. I would love to see another video like this in the future when enough news happens to make one!
Definitely interested in knowning more about the lithium sodium sulphur cells!
It's very nice format of video and very interesting topic, I like it.
I do have one suggestion, when rolling off loads of numbers about different things, it's extremely easy for those numbers to just blur into each other and loose the plot.
For example the part of this video when you were specifying the probabilities of car fires.
I have a suggestion, as you list of numbers if the relevant numbers appeared on the screen as you speak then it would be easier to follow. So with the car fires if you just had "Petrol 0.2345y54%" appear on the screen when you said that number and when you say the number for LFP then "LFP 0.00002545352%" will appear on the screen when you say that number, then it's easier to follow a continuous flow of numbers and easily see which one is bigger.
Just a suggestion, but this was a cool video.
Yes, as the TY captioning transcribes the narration wrong, so I'm reading incorrect numbers and trying to reconcile them with what I almost heard.
291... Kate, i'm on fire! What an interesting topic. Good buy... Ceramics? Keep Evolving!!!
Outstanding material and presentation. THANK YOU!
Excellent video! A wonderful catchup video to current battery research. I always appreciate your videos!
No, it's a bunch of hopium. First, she assumes cars will need no maintenance as they age. This is simply categorically false. All cars, whether it is a real car or an EV needs excessive maintenance with age ALONE. Not even miles. Just age. Cars are loaded with rubber that goes hard. Expensive parts too. Every part of the suspension is loaded with rubber that does not age well even just sitting in a garage. The brakes will need extensive maintenance especially on an EV. Not only are EVs heavier, but the brakes are not frequently used. The calibers will need replacement because of that. The brake lines rot. God only knows how often the charging system will need to be entirely replaced. They are not field serviceable.
The computers too. There are thousands of 90s and early 2000s cars failing because of bad capacitors in the ECM. They don't just stop working, they work long after they should be repaired. That might sound good, but if you let capacitors go, you need to replace the entire board. They have acid in them that pee all over the board and destroy the board. Since there are no symptoms, you don't know this damage is being done until the traces are finally eaten through. Again, they are not field serviceable. Garages and dealerships simply are not set up to deal with these failures. They are thousands of Dollars to replace if they are even still made. It's not jsut the ECM. Modern cars of all types are LOADED with chips and circuit boards.
There is no end to things that go wrong with ALL cars.
She also assumes the batteries will last the life of the car. They won't. The oldest cars on the road still being registered as ordinary cars and daily driven are like 25 years old. That is the typical lifespan of these cars. These batteries won't last 15 years. 10-12 years if you are lucky. Replacements are likely to cost more than the car is worth.
@@tarstarkusz She literally says the batteries will outlast the vehicles themselves, but go ahead and charge those windmills. But then you go on to argue the opposite point... which is it? The cars won't last or the batteries won't last?
@@patreekotime4578 She's literally wrong. The batteries will not outlast the cars. They will be lucky to last 12 years. The AVERAGE age of a car on the road in the US TODAY is 12.8 years. That means roughly half are older than 13 years. There are hundreds of thousands of 1999-2001 cars on the road This is the lifespan of a car made then, about twice the mean or 26 years.
If you had paid attention, you would have known she said they wouldn't need maintenance and repairs as they age because they are EVs and not cars.
The EVs can last. But they won't last without expensive repairs. That was my point. Old cars are cheaper up front, but they cost a lot of money to keep in good repair.
But that is only IF someone is willing to dump over 10 grand into a 12 year old car (assuming the battery actually makes it 12 years). Very few people would put a new engine and transmission in a 12 year old car. The cost often exceeds the value of the car.
Of course, all this assumes the motor lasts the full 25 years.
@@tarstarkusz There are plenty of EVs still on the road that are 12 years old running the original batteries. And those have batteries that by todays standards are ancient technology. Of the EVs that have required full battery replacements, they were either factory defects or they were taxi cabs being abused far beyond what normal people do. So your fear tactic that next year they will all mysteriously need new batteries is just silly. And EVs absolutely require less maintence than ICE cars: fewer brake replacements, no oil changes, no engine work, no transmission work as they typically just have single speed gear boxes. Its just logic: fewer moving parts means fewer things to break. And the anecdotes of long time EV owners and the statistics from fleet management companies agrees.
Compare that to ICE cars that often need engine overhauls and new transmissions before 100k miles. Repairs and maintence often rack up well over $10k in less than 25 years. But no, cant mention that!
@@patreekotime4578 Wrong on all counts.
EVs do not require less maintenance or if so, by a very small amount. EVs have plenty of systems that are just as vulnerable to breaking down and aging as any car. HVAC, suspension, cooling system, 500 sensors all over the car. Rotting brake lines, ceased calibers (more likely on EV), changing fluids. There are 10k things to go wrong in an EV. Plus, the battery with many thousands of separate parts in it. Plus the rectifier. Plus the inverter. Plus the electric motor. Plus the transmission (no, don't argue, it's a transmission, just a simpler one. It needs maintenance.) In many places in the US, it is already more expensive to drive an EV than a gas engine if you have to fast charge.
BULLSHIT! There are no cars being made today that require an overhaul of the engine and transmission at 100k miles. ANY car that needs an overhaul at 100k miles has not been maintained. 99% of cars go the junkyard with a perfectly running engine and transmission. It's the many thousands of dollars of non-engine and non-transmission parts that go bad.
Many EV batteries well under 12 years old need to be replaced already.
A minor accident is now totally unfixable EVs due to the battery. Hyundai said a new battery cost 60 THOUSAND Dollars after the most minor of collision with a driver hitting a piece of debris on the road.
It put a dent in the battery and NOBODY wanted to sign off on it being safe. Brand new car totaled because of a small dent under the car. This was just one very well covered case. This is happening now every single time there is even minor damage to the battery compartment. Nobody can guarantee that battery is not damaged and will not KILL a family with children when it catches fire in the middle of the night while charging in their attached garage.
NOBODY wants to be on TV next to the picture of a dead child. No shop owner. No manager at any dealer. No car company executive. At a minimum, they are going to get sued. Juries DO NOT LIKE dead kids. I'm not trying to dramatic here. This is reality. These EV fires are quite destructive. Any minor problem inside the battery can set a chain reaction. Nobody wants to take the chance. This is driving EV insurance through the roof. When the car is totaled, the insurance has to pay. Tesla is the single most expensive car in America to insure. EVs in general are a lot more expensive to insure even adjusting for their high costs.
EVs are a pipe dream. Close to 35% of Americans do not own a garage or otherwise have access to off street parking. If you don't live in a big city, you have no idea what a challenge this is. They cannot be fast charged with every cycle. Tesla won't even let you do it.
Loving this video style! It’s chill and isn’t overwhelming. Would love more little discussions like this for things that need more context than the weekly short shorts don’t have time for. Maybe this would be a good format for discussing some short short points also? ❤
At 8:30 I've "known" for about two decades that periodic high discharge and charge can help with dendrites since the old school lead acid conversion ppl shared such wisdom...
Yes, PbA isn't Li, yet they share this issue.
Cool separater info for mitigating thermal runaway...
How about an article on static batteries and especially for home use. Here, weight and volume are of minor considerations and price and longevity are paramount. Think how much Li would be freed up for vehicles if all home batteries (and commercial batteries) didn't use any Li - especially when recycling really ramps up and all the Li from static applications becomes available for EVs
That would increase prices. The greater production volume, the lower the unit price. There is no shortage of lithium, there is a permitting delay in lithium refining - red tape slowing everything down as usual.
Love this format, Kate that was a ripper delivery!
Cool Tee Shirt!
I've been following battery tech news for 20 years, and there's always a stark difference between lab expectations and the eventual product that rolls out of factories. Lab promises 20+% improvements in a few years, 5-10 years later we get 3-5% improvements. I stopped getting excited about lab results 10 years ago...
Energy density for batteries has doubled in the past decade while prices have fallen... That's a bit more than 3-5%
I agree that every day there's another battery break through that never happen
I suspect that that may happen in various sciences but I am not attuned to those ologies
I am surprised that I actually clicked on this video because I swore off
However, as the other post said, battery technologies have been moving ahead quite nicely
I am just impatient for capacitors that have one nanometer thick insulator that can withstand very high temperatures, high physical stresses, and will not breach with very high voltages and a one nanometer thick high temperature superconductor that can withstand high voltages and physical stresses
Capacitor with those qualities will make batteries obsolete in most applications
Then you should have just ignored this video because it says it right in the title.
Dream on; but it's my dream too. ---scott@@ScrappyDoodad
The real revolution has been the price drop.
Love the format , please do more.
More tech deep dives like this, please!
I really enjoy the more in-depth presentation.
Keep it up Kate.
Humour and common sense .
Excellent format, Thank you
First time viewing this channel; good info and just nerdy enough for me. Thanks for this video!
We try! - Nikki
Love your tech segments, Kate.
One of the most informative videos I've seen for a long time
Love your SGI t-shirt! How old is it? ;)
Thanks Nikki! :P
Great video. I would love to see lighter EVs with the same range as today's EVs and hopefully with new battery technology, it will become a reality.
I'm waiting for something. Either new batteries, or a small car with NACS that doesn't need an adapter. My only charging option is a Tesla supercharger just down the street, no 240V on the outside of the house or anywhere near, and I don't drive enough to really need one. If I could just go in the morning when the chargers are empty and fill it up once a week while I get groceries, I'd be set.
Why not use an adapter?
I use one every day with my Tesla, because my in-home charging station is J1772. I don't see any reason a person couldn't just use the opposite adapter so that they could use a Supercharger station.
Now, granted, the US market is still pretty top-heavy in terms of cost. But there are cars like the Bolt (momentarily discontinued, but it'll be back and if cost is a concern, you might want to buy used anyway, which is even cheaper).
Not to say you really should buy an EV...you do you. If you don't want to get an EV right now, you shouldn't. If you don't drive that much, maybe don't even bother with a car. There are other transportation alternatives that are generally cheaper than car ownership, especially for a person who doesn't drive much in the first place. Just be realistic about the "why not". :)
Hi Kate and the TE team,greetings from the U.K. excellent coverage of these emerging technologies. I need to check my BMW i3 battery pack for photon torpedoes after watching this, but I didn’t pick up an Hitch Hickers references in this one; shame. Anyway, back to reality, (which was extracted from a small piece of fairy cake). Lots of rainbow love.🌈
I like this style of update and gives more nuance.
Explain the nuances .
Lyten is already producing Sodium-Sulfur batteries and supplying them to automobile manufacturers for testing with about twice the energy density of the best current Nickel based (NCM/NCA) chemistries. Their's have been proven to retain over 90% of capacity after over 1,000 full charge (0 to 100%) cycles. Meaning 20 to 30 years on an EV since they never do such extreme charges/discharges. They will be in production vehicles before the end of this decade.
The reason Lithium-Sulfur batteries (and yes, they are in use today) have needed such high temperatures is that Monoclinic Sulfur is required for them and it has only remained stable at very high temperatures. But a discovery of using a vapor deposition technique to infuse it into either carbon nanotubes or carbon fibers, was discovered to contain it in such state at room temperature or much colder. As in down to (minus) -80C.
Drexel University's discovery have been tested to maintain their batteries capacity at over 90% after 4,000 full charge/discharge cycles. And yes, Lithium-Sulfur can hold up to 5 times the amount of Lithium Ion as the best battery chemistries in use today at 1/3 the weight.
Wow. Way to nerd out! That was brilliant
Very interesting coverage, thanks.
Nice! Succinct and informative.
Thank you, this format works well and will look forward to see what comes next. And thank you for also pointing out that there is every reason to expect EVs to last longer than the life cycle we have come to expect from ICE vehicles. I see the biggest barrier is just changing peoples mindset. Two years ago I swapped my Renault Zoe for a high mileage Model S (with free supercharging). I cover a lot of miles and like to venture into Europe quite often, so my car has now covered 267,000 miles. It would have gone straight through the MOT 3 weeks ago but I couldn't get the new tyres in time so failed on the front tyres, but everything else was a pass, just like last year. We need more frequent and affordable public transport and legislation needs overhauling to allow for micro mobility. ie practical assistance for e-bikes, e-cargo bikes and if that means insurance and register any device above a certain level of performance, then fine but make it fair and workable. I'm partially disabled and can't pedal any more, the throttle assistance on e-bikes in the UK and EU is pathetic and dangerous. 16mph leaves you a sitting duck in 30moh traffic!! And frankly the power allowed on e-cargo bikes will never work on the hills in Devon and many other parts of the UK. Those that say that an increase in power and speed on these bikes will lead to more accidents are probably right, but it will also lead to less accidents involving cars and vans, if e-bikes and e-cargo bikes became a sensible and practical alternative. And a high street with half a dozen cargo bikes delivering to businesses is far less cluttered than the same street with half a dozen vans delivering. I qualified as an MV technician after I left school (40+ years ago) and so I've been involved in tinkering (and years ago, motorsport) for a long time. I look at my current car and the large numbers of older Zoes, Leafs etc and can't help thinking that there is an opening to improve on these older cars, ie small aero modifications to improve efficiency and other tweaks that were not possible when new. I am sure that many of these cars can be kept relevant and useful by modest updates after several years of use. I'm lucky in that Tesla send updates regularly, but with modern tech there is no reason why updates couldn't be retro fitted to other EVs to keep them practical. But i think whatever it takes to keep old but perfectly usable electric cars and vans from being scrapped has to be a good thing. Part of the transition has to be to make fewer products and make them last much longer.
was fortunate to got to the Paris motoshow, and there weer a couple of companies showing off Sodium ion batteries with 160wh/Kg capacity. cool!
Great segment. You're the bomb Siri
My first encounter with silent electric vehicles was a bus that "buzzed" me in Manchester UK, the fact that I didn't hear it gave me the clue - I was at an electronics symposium at the Uni. It ran on "sulphur" batteries that needed 50°C to run (trade papers informed me). Clearly running at temperature was a significant drawback. Energy density was probably an issue too.
Well done. Good video, thank you.
Very nice Kate , you have reduced your sarcasm and exaggerated hand/ face gesticulations .
Love Kate & the delivery. Kate for President!
Thanks for an interesting video. I like it!
I enjoyed this a bunch.
Nice presentation. Public transportation is fine if you live in an urban area. For the rest of is, not so much
Thanks!
Let's face it, we are VERY early on the technological development of vehicular batteries. General battery advancement languished for many decades, until lithium ion tech showed promise and certain people in the world determined we needed to stop buring stuff. Money started flowing into research in a big, big way. It's way too early to pick a winner or even a favorite, but eventually there will be only a handful of fully developed, high capacity, lightweight, long life battery frameworks to choose from for vehicles. Heck, Archimedes described the screw pump in 234 BC and it took centuries before we got the the Space Shuttle main engine high pressure turbo-pump that operated at 28,120 rpm, 4,350 psi and had 23,260 horsepower. Batteries will get there, but some patience is needed.
Batteries are good
Nice shirt!
I want my MTV... Algorithm
Love this video thx very interesting
My preferred version would be the shorter one without those side shots
You're pretty funny, as well as pretty Kate, just love your personality!
I thought a two seater taxi is perfect for most situations, there are four seater cars as well from the same stable.
If they ever make a battery with over 2000 watts per kg then long haul jet travel will surely be possible!
Thanks
Don't sweat the petty things.
Don't pet the sweaty things.
Unless they ask nicely.
YES! More nerd sh*t with Kate!
Nice……. Good episode
so goood!
Thanks! I actually like the geeky stuff
12:00 - this picture is a perfect illustration of the biggest problem with how we do, and think about, transportation. Two Barcaloungers, a love seat behind them, a full-sized closet in the back and a refrigerator in front - almost a studio apartment's worth of furniture - and a battery and motors big enough to accelerate the lot of it at 1g off the line for hundreds of miles - all to get _one dude_ from A to B. Multiply that by hundreds of thousands, or millions, in the space of a metro area - with the road space required to carry them, and the space required to store them at both A and B - and you've created a situation in which the _only_ way to get from A to B is with a motor vehicle, because everything's too spread out to do it any other way.
This is the case, regardless how the vehicles are powered or piloted. It's not about politics, or "culture", or muh freedumz - it's about geometry, arithmetic, and physics.
I'm always glad when you (this channel and your friends Kryten et al. back in the old country) make a point to note that the solution is _not_ simply to replace all the existing ICE vehicles with EVs, but rather to provide more efficient modes of transportation (with the accompanying changes in land use patterns) so that far fewer private vehicles are needed, for the much reduced number of use cases that call for them.
Just asking… a deep-dive video on the Th!nk City? Iwould love to “resto-mod” one of these as a daily driver and would love to know more.
Great! Like it.
Yep, it works.
Not a good day to mention LG. My car is going to get an LG battery module replaced for the third time this Friday.
We should all be concerned about exploitation and especially child labour in the DRC and elsewhere, but don't be fooled into thinking that ending the use of cobalt in EVs will end the suffering or relieve the desperation of the people.
When an artisanal cobalt mine closes, those exploited workers will simply be exploited in one of the many artisanal gold or copper mines, or the meager earnings they make in the mines will be reduced to zero, making life even harder for them.
Another biochemist who gets headaches from too much inorganic chemistry. The Orgel diagram will always stick with me, not because I ever completely understood them or have ever used them after I finished the exam, but because I was studying for the exam on September 11, 2001.
Oh PS if you know anyone in Cornwall that would be interested, I know of a lovely 2015 Model S P85D with 56,000 miles on it and free supercharging, it is in Penzance
Wow Kate great report, but a lot of caveaty words there.
MIPS and SPARC in the same outfit! Oh, the incompatibility!
What? No singing today? Just a little bit? I'll take that.
1.8% battery degradation per year seems quite high to me, decent quality ICE cars should last 20 years now. I'd like to think in a few years aftermarket battery replacement becomes commonplace, maybe giving EVs greater ranges than when new.
Go to a Christian Church and ask for an automobile blessing with holy water sprinkling and incense wafting around the car yearly to improve battery longevity ..
Single point of reference: my 11 year old Tesla Model S battery has lost a little more than 16% of its capacity since new, which works out to 1.5% of original capacity lost each year. I didn't do the math -- seems too complicated to bother with at the moment -- but I wouldn't be surprised if that works out to 1.8% of _current_ capacity each year (i.e. the first year sees more decline, because capacity is higher...as the capacity goes down, 1.8% loss removes smaller and smaller amounts of capacity).
Still, in spite of this and in spite of the fact that the car has the smallest battery originally available (60 kWh), it still has plenty of range for day to day driving. I charge to 80% except if heading out on a long trip -- which is almost never -- and still don't come close to depleting the battery on a typical day of driving. It will take _many_ more years before the battery has degraded so much that the car would be useless without a battery replacement.
Newer EVs have larger batteries and are mostly more efficient than older ones (not counting the trend of inherently inefficient pickups and SUVs getting on the EV bandwagon, and even there they are at least still better efficiency wise than the ICE equivalent). Given that my aging Model S is still likely to easily make it to the 20 year mark, I've no doubt a modern EV sold today would do so as well. Especially since there is so much less that go wrong with the rest of the car, as compared to ICE models.
How about a run through the big battery breakthroughs from 1, 3, 5, and 10 years ago and follow up with their status today.
Love your channel.
We’re Not gonna be impressed.
here is the problem reporting these breakthroughs even if there is all kinds of tech coming through these will only come to market in 5-10 years or never. Lots of things to look over like pricing actual building and possible problems as well as safety. So yeah they have lots of new tech but the chances of them ever getting to market is extremely unlikely
Love the length, but I want better graphics explaining the concepts, I end up getting mesmerized by you talking and I stop listening, best film makers know, Show don't Tell. The asides work well to break up the content, but get an A.I. to fill in what you are saying with matching video.
Sodium Sodium Sodium Sodium Sodium Sodium Sodium Sodium Sodium Sodium…. BATMAN!
I don't appreciate the blasé manipulation of stats. The collateral damage caused by EV fires is off the charts compared to a comparable ICE vehicle fire with I am sure EV fires causing more human casualties.
STATE FARM insurance company is removing EV Chargers from all their properties across America. Why would that be ??? ?
Hot
Lol 11:22
1:40 BULLSHIT. The average age of a car on the road in the US is 13 years. That means the typical life is 25-26 years. Furthermore, battery degradation is is not linear. A 1.8% per year is not continuous. It will get worse after a few years. Even if it was, it still will be unacceptable by 15 years.
You have it backwards. Battery degradation is faster up front, then it stays pretty mild for a thousand or so cycles (so multiple hundred thousand miles for most EVs,) then it gets faster again.
And "average age" does not mean "double is the typical life". That's not how statistics work. It could mean a ton of vehicles last to 15 years then are retired. That's one of the problems with many of these types reports - they don't give all the detail unless you pay a bunch of money for access to the full report. The press release just says "average", not mean or median.
In 2018, before buying my first EV, my "fleet average" of the 3 vehicles I owned was 19 years. Today it's 3 years. Of the 3 vehicles I owned in 2018, two of those ICE vehicles are no longer on the road - completely removed from service. (One lost in an accident and the insurance company sold it to a wrecking yard, the other we chose to sell to a wrecking yard as it was beyond fiscally reasonable repair by the time it was replaced.) The third is in use (sold to a family member after HIS near-identical vehicle was damaged beyond reasonable repair and retired.)
I can't find a similar analysis recently, but in 2012 a blog did an analysis on just that discrepancy - while the average age of vehicles was increasing - it was mostly that ages in the MIDDLE were increasing. The oldest vehicles count stayed steady: misunderstoodfinance.blogspot.com/2014/05/increasing-share-of-older-autos-on-road.html (So no, "most vehicles" don't live to 25 years. There is a huge drop-off at the end of the "11-20 years old" mark. This was right at the tail end of the last recession, and you can see the drop in new car sales over the recession years, and the spike in 11-20, as people that would have retired a vehicle chose to hang on to it a few more years instead during the recession.
Likely we're in similar spot now, at the end of the COVID new-car-sales plunge. In 5 years (barring another Inmate P01135809 presidency) we'll likely see a return to the long-term average again.
@@AnonymousFreakYT I agree with the bulk of your rebuttal. But I would nitpick and take issue with the implication that "average" isn't a valid or well-defined metric.
Using a median would, for sure, give a better indication of age on a per-unit basis. But even without access to the full studies (and since the main data comes from the US Bureau of Transportation Statistics, it's not like the data is actually hidden), we can still understand what "average" actually means in this context. That is, these figures really are talking exactly about the sum of the age of all registered vehicles, divided by the total number of vehicles.
That said, knowing what "average" means here doesn't make the statistics any more concerning, and certainly you're right that you can't just double the average to come up with a "typical" vehicle lifetime.
Indeed, at least two important factors would be completely ignored in such an assertion. To elaborate on points you already made so well: 1) there is a much longer "tail" on the other side of the average, because there's a lower bound on age (i.e. brand new) while there's no theoretical upper bound; there aren't as many extremely old vehicles, but they do exist, and each one has an outsized effect on the calculated average; and 2) the average age is very much significantly affected by historical sales trends.
On the latter point, the average has crept up not only because vehicles last much longer, but because vehicles sales are down. New cars are much less affordable (as an aside, this is even more true for EVs sold in the US), and a surge in sales some 6-14 years ago (i.e. roughly between the 2008 recession and the 2020 pandemic) produces a larger segment of cars in that age range, than for newer cars sold more recently in fewer numbers.
(A related factor to the sales numbers is that more and more people are reducing their dependency on cars. We have a long way to go before most US cities can truly be considered healthy, livable, not-car-centric cities, but lots of progress has been made on the front and the long term trend is necessarily going to be fewer and fewer car sales, translating to the average age increasing.)
This is all very similar to average age of human beings. E.g. in the US the average age is increasing, and some of that is increased longevity, but much more of it is just lower birth rates which means smaller generational cohorts. US life expectancy is starting to trend downward again, and yet even with that happening, for now the average age of a US resident is still increasing. The two, while loosely related, cannot be viewed as mathematically tied.
(Though interestingly, to me anyway, is that when you do a web search for "average age of US resident", both Bing and Google return _median_ age -- arguably the more useful number -- and yet searching for "median age of US vehicle" both search engines do the opposite, i.e. return results documenting the average age. I.e. in both cases, you simply cannot get both average and median. It seems the published statistics have decided how to present the figures and don't provide alternative views.)