While that was a really nice summary of gestalt laws - I am left wondering WHY I should follow gestalt patterns in design. I can see the use for UI or some game mechanics. But would I not want to break these patterns to e.g. make a level harder by un-grouping enemies or surprise the player by one type of enemy NOT following those rules? I feel like the video is missing the link between theory and practical implementation.
Did I "Shump-up" on this one or what?! Apologies for my mispronunciation of the shorthand for "Shoot 'em ups." I’ve always said “Shumps” when discussing these games with my friends and no one ever corrected me. However I have now learned the error of my shumping ways. I feel quite shumpy for shumping this up royally like a big ‘ol Shump. - Matt ;)
I'm not in the demographic for this type of game, but I understood "Shmup" to be the base and thought "Shump" to be an acceptable variant. I have no idea if you're the only person I've heard say them that way. Then again, I'm still annoyed with WoW players calling a hearthstone "hurthstone" (when it should be like "heart"), so it's not like I don't have my pet peeve pronunciations. The players more familiar with these games should be able to call it.
Well, this video just taught me the proper pronunciation of "gestalt". Very embarrassing it took me this long to find that out, considering I a) have learnt German, and b) routinely play Pathfinder with the "gestalt" variant rules applied. (For anyone who's interested, those rules allow you to combine two different classes together, taking the best parts of each).
Spot on? Tbh I just laughed as he pronounced it - but I agree that you have a hard time pronouncing things in another language, so he did what he could.
Sure, it's not exactly the way a native speaker would say it, but he made no actual mistakes either. (I think we're both native speakers, so yeah.) I guess the word Gestalt just sounds inherently funny in English. :)
Natively german speaking fella here! During the video, the pronunciation got a bit worse. The very first use in the video is as spot-on as I'd expect a native english speaker to get, but during the end, the a drifted more into an 'awe' sound. In german it's pronounced like the u in sun or the a in regard.
Matt: "So the next time you see a pattern or a group in a game, ask yourself: Is that all really connected, or did my brain just make it so?" Me: "Is there a diff-?" Matt: "And then ask yourself: Is there a difference?" Me: "Way ahead of you."
there is a difference, the difference is if real pattern which the game desiner is tell you something, (like the line of coins being a clue which way to go to advance) or if it jut use see patterns that are meaningless (like star constellations)
At the cognitive level, there is definitely *NOT* a difference. Think about what you're seeing on your monitor. Is that a "really connected" circle? An LCD is a finite collection of discrete pixels of uniform thickness and integral positions and values. Gestalt is still at play, just at a higher resolution. In fact, even removing the monitor, vision itself is a gestalt. What you "see" right now isn't taken all at once by the human eye, but rather the brain stitching together numerous impressions as the eye performs saccadic jumps about its visual field. Again, gestalt in action subconsciously.
Funnily enough, in this art style, there's a lot of gestalt at work with the characters! Hands and head and torso aren't visibly connected, but we still immediately know it's all portraying a full person. There's no arms or neck but our brain fills it in anyway to tell us they're connected.
Jio Derako And the same with the 'movement'--they mostly only show successive still frames but our minds assume the characters are moving through the motion.
I remember a few years back playing Super Hexagon more than is reasonable and finding myself preparing to react to things that weren't even on screen yet, but that I knew were coming based on the patterns I did already see. That game's too fast to get very far without Gestalt.
When I play video games for too long, I begin to use their patterns of gameplay in real life when processing what to do next. Like after I played Xcom, I wouldn’t run into a room, because my brain told me there might be aliens in there, and if I ran I would be out of turns to shoot them. Or Sims, I would very carefully plan my whole day ahead, only to realize within seconds that it doesn’t take half an hour to eat a bowl of cereal.
I bet things like that are extremely common (and almost always funny). In high school I remember playing Fire Emblem and then finding it uncomfortable that I could just keep walking down the hall without stopping to let other people take their turn.
Another interesting thing is how/if designers should get players NOT to form things into Gestalts, I think that's equally valiable to think about. Let me give you an example from personal experience. I'm an amateur MtG player, and I got a lot more success out of playing my own crafted decks when I stopped seeing them as one cohesive unit, and started seeing all the cards as individuals. Before making the switch, I would often find myself just using my favorite deck (mono red goblins) by going with the strategy of "make lots of goblins, line them up in a row on the battlfield, and make them swamp anything I think needs to die". This can be a very viable strategy at lower levels of play, but I needed to evolve my thinking style to have success at even mid tier level. That success came in the form of breaking the Gestalt I had formed around my deck, and looking at each individual card as one gear in a machine that's going to he put together differently every time. The Gestalt I formed around my deck dictated that it had one purpose and one purpose only: gather a goblin horde and gang up on someone. But when I looked at my cards all separately, I started seeing new ways to play. I could wait until I have a couple big goblins, and sacrifice them for some hefty damage that my opponent will have a hard time negating. I could play with a teammate and use my goblins as a defensive line of cannon fodder to protect them while they do the majority of the heavy lifting. I could attack with part of my horde and save the rest for defense, making my opponent less likely to counter attack. The point is, it's equally valuable to go against your brain's natural workings, and try to see beyond your initial programming
Also in tactics games it means that a player may intentionally pretend like they are using a few enemies as a group and then suddenly have them act differently to throw you off, or have two of them go different directions only to have them bunch up later.
Michael F. Walter - "shmup" is perfectly pronouncable. It's "sh" then "m" then "up" (obviously run together). Using the standard phonetic interpretation of the letters in English, it most definitely would *not* be prounounced "shump" as that's a different sound order altogether and it doesn't match the letters. Yes, you could argue that English has boatloads of words where the pronunciation doesn't match the letters at all, but pretty much none of those are acronyms (or whatever it is) like "shmup".
With the "This is not a circle" part, I'm *really* reminded of bullet hell games. Hundreds of tiny enemys moving in actually quite crazy patterns. But you are not dodging them individually, you are dodging beems, and waves and circles and what not, you dodge the patterns moving across your screen. Atleast mentally, technically you dodge just the tiny bits, but that is not the way you brain thinks of them.
Touhou has some really nice patterns. ^^ Gets really hard if you don't notice the pattern, or there really are too many groups of bullets to keep track of, or if they really don't fit into groups that make it easier.
Who needs a Dan, when this guy makes dorky sounds at the end of his videos. Seriously though, that is the best ending I've ever seen. That should be at the end of a Marvel film.
An interesting thing is when the contrary happen and the Gestalt is broken, making you realizing that you shouldnt have assumed something and whatever happened it is your fault
Coming from an artist background, I have been suggesting this for awhile in game design. I think this can be expanded upon further as a basic concepts of pattern recognition (I asked my human factors teacher about a general set of concepts that define all types of patterns, but he was not aware of any). So if you take this idea and apply it to other dimensions than just visual, I think the gestalt concepts could be considered a set of pattern categories (think applying these to game design and time intervals for positive / negative reinforcement for instance). Either way, very happy to see this topic being discussed. Also, go read "The Gamer's Brain". It covers another area(s) where game design can grow (UX and Human Factors). Thanks and keep them coming :)
I have no idea how "shump" doesn't get caught immediately, much less pass between editors and animators unnoticed. It's so bizarre to me that I'd actually appreciate an explanation. Was someone on the team adamant that it's pronounced "shump", or something?
Reminds me of one of Scott McCloud's example: "This is not a pipe" where it showed a drawing of a pipe and how wee perceive objects. The "mind filling in the blank" is also what makes animation function, since they're a sequence of images.
Oh wow, what an awesome topic for you all to cover! This is a topic you'll cover in Psychology and it is a fascinating one. I've also got a few examples from gaming that are pretty cool too. First is the Gestalt Mode in Final Fantasy 13. I had no idea what that meant when I initially played the game some time ago, but after learning about it in college it made a lot more sense. You're combining with your Eidolon to form a new whole. Second is the final of Jiggywiggy's challenges in Banjo Tooie where you need to assemble a jigsaw puzzle. The final challenge is so difficult because of the rotation on the jigsaw pieces that when I finally did it, it was because I started recognizing the patterns used and how it comes together to form a complete whole.
Hmmm, I thought about the last question (i.e. "does the difference matters") and just realized this is the secret to making good puzzles. When our brain encounters a part of the puzzle multiple times, our brain remembers it and tries to group these events as a single set of events/objects that can be solved by following the same steps. But the genius happens when a future puzzle shows up similar to the ones that were solved before, and while trying to solve that puzzle using previous experiences, the player realizes that some subtle difference causes the puzzle to be an entirely different one. This causes the player to reevaluate his knowledge and understanding of the puzzle mechanics and try to "fight" against his own gestalt to see how these pieces of the puzzle fit together in a different way. I hope I'm making sense haha! Anyway, great video Extra Credits team! This unexpectedly broadened my understanding of puzzle games haha!
Switching narrators hasnt diminished the experience at all for me and some of the substance seems to have ramped up in actionable principals, understanding and advice. still one of my favorite channels after many years.
Been playing Xcom 2. Excellent example of Gestalt in the enemy design. They group similar enemies by color, sound, and movement so you often know how a new enemy will behave even if you've never seen it before.
you have taught me so many things over the years like the uncanny valley, the skinner box, and power creep to name a few and even today you teach another new thing which I am glad to know about so thank you for always making learning fun or as you taught me tangential
I've encountered Gestalt laws a lot in my work with UI design. Things like grouping related buttons together to not confuse the user is a big one for example. Or not giving things that serve opposite functions the same colour as another.
This can also happen with moves in a beat em up or fighting game to a degree. It can get to the point at which you see a combo as one big move, as opposed to many smaller moves strung together.
This is why it's so interesting when developers throw in the occasional curveballs, like a line of coins leading to danger or an enemy having an unexpected ability.
Legend of Zelda games come to mind. Sometimes you know how to beat a dungeon boss because you've beaten a miniature version of him somewhere in the dungeon, and you know the correlation because of similar color, size or attack patterns
I actually notice details at the same time as the thing itself because it makes it more clear, so “it looks like a dog, buuuuut, it has a pouch like a kangaroo, there for it’s a marsupial, not actuality a dog.”.
Dark Souls uses gestalt to inform me of friend or foe before I attack. Except Eileen in Bloodborne. The fact that she's facing away from you and her unique idle stance isn't obvious makes her look threatening as hell on that balcony, and her facing away from me means I don't get to see that she doesn't aggro me before I decide this is the perfect sneak attack opportunity.
By the way, Dan is starting his own RUclips channel called "New Frame Plus." He's in production for a lot of his videos, but he's uploaded a few already, if you want to see what he's been up to recently.
As others have mentioned, Dan has moved on to other things (and we wish him all the best!) In the meantime, I have learned to love Matt, and I think the Extra shows are in great hands! (mouths?)
Yknow... I've never disliked Matt, but I've come to REALLY like him, which I didn't think it would happen because Dan was just so amazing and iconic. Good shit Matt. Another great video by the ExtraCrew. Please never leave us
I like you Matt, you're making this your own thing with all the corny jokes and your cat popping in whenever it's a nice touch to say your different but the show still has the same pedigree. Keep it up man! Also this episode was great albeit a bit confusing but I think any conversation about how the brain works can go that rout real quick.
This reminds me of an unrelated topic. If you suddenly could only remember the last three things you saw, what would count as one "thing"? Say, if four bullets were fired at you, could you remember all of them as one thing? Or would you forget one? What about if you saw them all in a reflection; would that be one "thing"?
When you first said shump, i thought it was an industry term I didn't know. A little after the second time, I thought "ohhhhh, he's never played a shoot 'em up before."
...and this is the episode where you start to realize most of the drawn people in this channel are detached hands and heads relatively close to a thingy with feet.
I always find it funny when native english speakers speak german, but I wouldn't call it Gestalt principle, because the word itself usually refers to a suspicious person or character, although in a sentence it can mean to give form to something, but the first ting that always comes to mind when hearing the word is a person, so another expression would have been better (I think). There were also a few things that I believe were mentioned in a prior video, but other than that I thought the video was great. I love these short dives into the innerworkings of the human mind and how we can use them in design. Keep up the good work ^^
"Gestalt" is just generally "form, figure, shape", not necessarily suspicious. That said, it's basically a technical term that has been established quite a while ago, it's not something that EC came up with.
"Shump" is wrong, but it's odd that no one on your end questioned it upon hearing it. Today I also learned what Gestalt actually sounds like when said aloud; previously I'd only read the word on Transformer forums. :T
It is amazing that German words have such a narrow meaning in English. In German Gestalt has a very broad meaning, it can be used to describe the propertys of something if used in combination with an adjective. It can also mean the face of something, the look, the build up as well as its shape. Essentially the word Gestalt represents the non descript person or shape, if you don't know anything about something, you can only see the shadow, it's a Gestalt. Gestalt can even be used as a word for ghost or specter.
Interesting, I wonder if this has been used in the opposite way, use the gestalt thing to bait you into thinking that an enemy will behave or do something based on other enemies you've seen only to do something wildly different that caughts you off-guard and then kills you.
Dive a bit into game theory and behavioral economics. I can recommend Kahneman and Tversky works for the later. Game theory I haven't found a nice introduction to for which you don't need a professor on the side, but I've heard a lot of praise for Varoufakis' book on the subject
Gestalt groupings can help us tell friend from foe, parse our inventory, or even navigate space.
Extra Credits I love this channel
The game jam is so soon!
Can you do a video about spanish reconquista and inquisition
While that was a really nice summary of gestalt laws - I am left wondering WHY I should follow gestalt patterns in design. I can see the use for UI or some game mechanics. But would I not want to break these patterns to e.g. make a level harder by un-grouping enemies or surprise the player by one type of enemy NOT following those rules? I feel like the video is missing the link between theory and practical implementation.
Nice shump guys! Keep em shumpin
Did I "Shump-up" on this one or what?! Apologies for my mispronunciation of the shorthand for "Shoot 'em ups." I’ve always said “Shumps” when discussing these games with my friends and no one ever corrected me. However I have now learned the error of my shumping ways. I feel quite shumpy for shumping this up royally like a big ‘ol Shump.
- Matt ;)
I've always heard people call them "Shmup" for a SHoot-eM-UP.
Was gonna say. I have know idea what he's talking about. Thanks for the clarification
Extra Credits I'd prefer you stick with the full phrase or at least slur all the words together without dropping any of them. Like "shoodemups".
I'm not in the demographic for this type of game, but I understood "Shmup" to be the base and thought "Shump" to be an acceptable variant. I have no idea if you're the only person I've heard say them that way.
Then again, I'm still annoyed with WoW players calling a hearthstone "hurthstone" (when it should be like "heart"), so it's not like I don't have my pet peeve pronunciations. The players more familiar with these games should be able to call it.
Well, this video just taught me the proper pronunciation of "gestalt". Very embarrassing it took me this long to find that out, considering I a) have learnt German, and b) routinely play Pathfinder with the "gestalt" variant rules applied.
(For anyone who's interested, those rules allow you to combine two different classes together, taking the best parts of each).
The pronunciation of Gestalt was spot-on, but...
...shump?
mebamme Yeah. It's SHoot eM UP. Shmup, not Shump
Spot on? Tbh I just laughed as he pronounced it - but I agree that you have a hard time pronouncing things in another language, so he did what he could.
He Gestalt-ed the letters in the wrong order.
Sure, it's not exactly the way a native speaker would say it, but he made no actual mistakes either. (I think we're both native speakers, so yeah.) I guess the word Gestalt just sounds inherently funny in English. :)
Natively german speaking fella here!
During the video, the pronunciation got a bit worse. The very first use in the video is as spot-on as I'd expect a native english speaker to get, but during the end, the a drifted more into an 'awe' sound. In german it's pronounced like the u in sun or the a in regard.
Matt: "So the next time you see a pattern or a group in a game, ask yourself: Is that all really connected, or did my brain just make it so?"
Me: "Is there a diff-?"
Matt: "And then ask yourself: Is there a difference?"
Me: "Way ahead of you."
there is a difference, the difference is if real pattern which the game desiner is tell you something, (like the line of coins being a clue which way to go to advance) or if it jut use see patterns that are meaningless (like star constellations)
Jojo fan: ...and your next line is going to be...
At the cognitive level, there is definitely *NOT* a difference.
Think about what you're seeing on your monitor. Is that a "really connected" circle? An LCD is a finite collection of discrete pixels of uniform thickness and integral positions and values. Gestalt is still at play, just at a higher resolution.
In fact, even removing the monitor, vision itself is a gestalt. What you "see" right now isn't taken all at once by the human eye, but rather the brain stitching together numerous impressions as the eye performs saccadic jumps about its visual field. Again, gestalt in action subconsciously.
Funnily enough, in this art style, there's a lot of gestalt at work with the characters! Hands and head and torso aren't visibly connected, but we still immediately know it's all portraying a full person. There's no arms or neck but our brain fills it in anyway to tell us they're connected.
Jio Derako And the same with the 'movement'--they mostly only show successive still frames but our minds assume the characters are moving through the motion.
I remember a few years back playing Super Hexagon more than is reasonable and finding myself preparing to react to things that weren't even on screen yet, but that I knew were coming based on the patterns I did already see. That game's too fast to get very far without Gestalt.
When I play video games for too long, I begin to use their patterns of gameplay in real life when processing what to do next.
Like after I played Xcom, I wouldn’t run into a room, because my brain told me there might be aliens in there, and if I ran I would be out of turns to shoot them. Or Sims, I would very carefully plan my whole day ahead, only to realize within seconds that it doesn’t take half an hour to eat a bowl of cereal.
I bet things like that are extremely common (and almost always funny). In high school I remember playing Fire Emblem and then finding it uncomfortable that I could just keep walking down the hall without stopping to let other people take their turn.
Another interesting thing is how/if designers should get players NOT to form things into Gestalts, I think that's equally valiable to think about.
Let me give you an example from personal experience. I'm an amateur MtG player, and I got a lot more success out of playing my own crafted decks when I stopped seeing them as one cohesive unit, and started seeing all the cards as individuals.
Before making the switch, I would often find myself just using my favorite deck (mono red goblins) by going with the strategy of "make lots of goblins, line them up in a row on the battlfield, and make them swamp anything I think needs to die". This can be a very viable strategy at lower levels of play, but I needed to evolve my thinking style to have success at even mid tier level. That success came in the form of breaking the Gestalt I had formed around my deck, and looking at each individual card as one gear in a machine that's going to he put together differently every time.
The Gestalt I formed around my deck dictated that it had one purpose and one purpose only: gather a goblin horde and gang up on someone. But when I looked at my cards all separately, I started seeing new ways to play. I could wait until I have a couple big goblins, and sacrifice them for some hefty damage that my opponent will have a hard time negating. I could play with a teammate and use my goblins as a defensive line of cannon fodder to protect them while they do the majority of the heavy lifting. I could attack with part of my horde and save the rest for defense, making my opponent less likely to counter attack.
The point is, it's equally valuable to go against your brain's natural workings, and try to see beyond your initial programming
Also in tactics games it means that a player may intentionally pretend like they are using a few enemies as a group and then suddenly have them act differently to throw you off, or have two of them go different directions only to have them bunch up later.
Shmup! Not Shump, Shmup!
Kazuichi Souda how do you pronounce "Shmup?" Moreover, what is a shmup?
SHoot 'eM UP. SHMUP
I do think they pronounced shmup properly though. Not sure how else you would pronounce that.
I'd go with sh-m-UP (like aSHMane/UPpity). Gotta admit though, I've never heard it spoken out loud before today.
Michael F. Walter - "shmup" is perfectly pronouncable. It's "sh" then "m" then "up" (obviously run together). Using the standard phonetic interpretation of the letters in English, it most definitely would *not* be prounounced "shump" as that's a different sound order altogether and it doesn't match the letters. Yes, you could argue that English has boatloads of words where the pronunciation doesn't match the letters at all, but pretty much none of those are acronyms (or whatever it is) like "shmup".
THANK YOU!
1:36 I'd like to solve. IT. WAS. WALPOLE!
Thank you!!!! :)
I actually thought it was 'harpoon'... which explains why I didn't get it at first.
I blame Walpole.
and what is a walpole?
ruclips.net/video/a_1IpUCUuVc/видео.html
Bowser Koopa
Meme of this channel
Watch history videos about west Atlantic company
Keep the bad jokes coming my man.
Seconded! Finished the video and immediately thought "I love the light touch of humor the videos have had lately"
I went a step further and was actively looking forward to the joke at the end.👍
*That was my brain exploding*
Great video, but man was it distracting every time you said "shump" instead of "shmup".
I also had this feel
Seriously.
This! thank you!
Agreed. Video was interesting, but this was driving me crazy the whole way through!
With the "This is not a circle" part, I'm *really* reminded of bullet hell games. Hundreds of tiny enemys moving in actually quite crazy patterns. But you are not dodging them individually, you are dodging beems, and waves and circles and what not, you dodge the patterns moving across your screen.
Atleast mentally, technically you dodge just the tiny bits, but that is not the way you brain thinks of them.
Touhou has some really nice patterns. ^^ Gets really hard if you don't notice the pattern, or there really are too many groups of bullets to keep track of, or if they really don't fit into groups that make it easier.
NewDan is starting to grow on me
What happened to OldDan?
His cat isn't doing it for me
Invasive Wargaming Check youtube channels PlayFrame and New Frame Plus. And also, Twitter handle DanFloydPlus.
NewDan does a neat shump
Who needs a Dan, when this guy makes dorky sounds at the end of his videos.
Seriously though, that is the best ending I've ever seen.
That should be at the end of a Marvel film.
My man really said SHUMP...
Nine times...
It's so bad, make it stop!
No, he said SCHUMP
huh?
Shumps or Shmups?
"SHoot 'eM UP" = "SHMUP"
Should still be pronounced "Shh-mu-ps" and not "chumps"
I think the reason is that Shump sounds more like a word than Shmup Again ties in the gestalt useage of our brain
yonderTheGreat But you're not saying it quickly, it's a shortened term created by their community. It's been "shmups" for years.
Shmup
That was a good shump, I sure enjoyed that shump. Probably the best shump I’ve ever shumped.
Mark Spencer Until they make a video addressing Shoot em ups and then we'll have a "shump"-fest. *Shivers*
its a good day when Extra Credits posts a video!
Eli Kupesok It is quite obvious you are trying to get pinned
haha somewhat true i guess but i did not lie when i said that, Extra Credits is one of my most favorite channels
I’m not calling you a lier, it’s fine you like him
"Oh, hey, that enemy's red. Imma try an ice spell."
An interesting thing is when the contrary happen and the Gestalt is broken, making you realizing that you shouldnt have assumed something and whatever happened it is your fault
Coming from an artist background, I have been suggesting this for awhile in game design. I think this can be expanded upon further as a basic concepts of pattern recognition (I asked my human factors teacher about a general set of concepts that define all types of patterns, but he was not aware of any). So if you take this idea and apply it to other dimensions than just visual, I think the gestalt concepts could be considered a set of pattern categories (think applying these to game design and time intervals for positive / negative reinforcement for instance). Either way, very happy to see this topic being discussed. Also, go read "The Gamer's Brain". It covers another area(s) where game design can grow (UX and Human Factors). Thanks and keep them coming :)
I have no idea how "shump" doesn't get caught immediately, much less pass between editors and animators unnoticed. It's so bizarre to me that I'd actually appreciate an explanation. Was someone on the team adamant that it's pronounced "shump", or something?
I love this channels sense of humor and art. You all really take subjects and make them fun to listen too.
You’re really getting into the host role. While at first it was a little forced, now it’s much more natural and laid back. Nice job!
Video games hack my brain!
Beer By The Numbers they sure do shump my shump
Or is it your brain that hacks videogames?
Reminds me of one of Scott McCloud's example:
"This is not a pipe" where it showed a drawing of a pipe and how wee perceive objects.
The "mind filling in the blank" is also what makes animation function, since they're a sequence of images.
Is in really Matt, or is it just Matt's head, Matt's body and two symmetric-ish Matt's hands?
Heyyy a Voltron Reference at 2:05
Can NewGuy NotDan be taught to pronounce SHMUP correctly?
*Shumps*
IT WAS WALPOLE
It wasnt Walpole it was Robert! (But they are the Same person)
mind imploded
maybe
Alright, I admit it, I have NEVER heard the word "shump" before in gaming videos.
Jay that's because it's "shmup"
To be honest, I've never heard (or read) that one either, and I've been playing videogames since the early 90s...
Oh wow, what an awesome topic for you all to cover! This is a topic you'll cover in Psychology and it is a fascinating one.
I've also got a few examples from gaming that are pretty cool too. First is the Gestalt Mode in Final Fantasy 13. I had no idea what that meant when I initially played the game some time ago, but after learning about it in college it made a lot more sense. You're combining with your Eidolon to form a new whole.
Second is the final of Jiggywiggy's challenges in Banjo Tooie where you need to assemble a jigsaw puzzle. The final challenge is so difficult because of the rotation on the jigsaw pieces that when I finally did it, it was because I started recognizing the patterns used and how it comes together to form a complete whole.
Ok EC now you have to do an episode on shmups.
Didn't they just release one today? ;)
Beremor no no, you're confused, this one is about SHUMPS veeeery different :P
Hmmm, I thought about the last question (i.e. "does the difference matters") and just realized this is the secret to making good puzzles. When our brain encounters a part of the puzzle multiple times, our brain remembers it and tries to group these events as a single set of events/objects that can be solved by following the same steps. But the genius happens when a future puzzle shows up similar to the ones that were solved before, and while trying to solve that puzzle using previous experiences, the player realizes that some subtle difference causes the puzzle to be an entirely different one. This causes the player to reevaluate his knowledge and understanding of the puzzle mechanics and try to "fight" against his own gestalt to see how these pieces of the puzzle fit together in a different way. I hope I'm making sense haha!
Anyway, great video Extra Credits team! This unexpectedly broadened my understanding of puzzle games haha!
Switching narrators hasnt diminished the experience at all for me and some of the substance seems to have ramped up in actionable principals, understanding and advice. still one of my favorite channels after many years.
Been playing Xcom 2. Excellent example of Gestalt in the enemy design. They group similar enemies by color, sound, and movement so you often know how a new enemy will behave even if you've never seen it before.
Fascinating video!
I think this a possible great tool to make tutorials much more enjoyable and concise, rather than a series of words thrown at you.
you have taught me so many things over the years like the uncanny valley, the skinner box, and power creep to name a few and even today you teach another new thing which I am glad to know about so thank you for always making learning fun or as you taught me tangential
This is an amazing episode, I love the use of game visual motifs and design to explain science!
If only you guys posted this 6 months ago! Had to study this over and over again in my design class.
Greetings from Germany and good job on the pronunciation of gestalt. I didn't even know that this word has found its way into the English language.
This is the best episode you've had in a long while, and the one which has made me decide I like Matt. He has the same dumb sense of humor I do.
That depiction of Voltron is one of the small things that keeps me coming back to this channel.
Thank you for finally explaining what “gestalt” is to me in a way I can understand. :)
I've encountered Gestalt laws a lot in my work with UI design. Things like grouping related buttons together to not confuse the user is a big one for example. Or not giving things that serve opposite functions the same colour as another.
Hahaahha, I loved the very ending with the "puuuuussshhhhhh".
Keep up the good work!
This can also happen with moves in a beat em up or fighting game to a degree. It can get to the point at which you see a combo as one big move, as opposed to many smaller moves strung together.
This was very helpful for other areas of study, thanks!
3:37 I definitely see the old Rareware logo.
another great episode! that Voltron really made me smile!
That voltron art was great...great video!
Mind officially blown! Great episode and an interesting topic.
This is one of my favourite topic about game design after reading Level Up by Scott Rogers. Good you guys tackle this
Just finished reading Stephen Few's Information Dashboard Design. Good book, breaks down the gestalt principle and how to use it pretty well.
as soon as i saw the word Gestalt, i was hoping for a giant robot reference of some kind, thank you for delivering on that expectation. :)
I liked the Voltron reference. Plus, moving animation is always a treat, you guys.
This is why it's so interesting when developers throw in the occasional curveballs, like a line of coins leading to danger or an enemy having an unexpected ability.
Legend of Zelda games come to mind. Sometimes you know how to beat a dungeon boss because you've beaten a miniature version of him somewhere in the dungeon, and you know the correlation because of similar color, size or attack patterns
I actually notice details at the same time as the thing itself because it makes it more clear, so “it looks like a dog, buuuuut, it has a pouch like a kangaroo, there for it’s a marsupial, not actuality a dog.”.
You're doing great show! Thank you!
Dark Souls uses gestalt to inform me of friend or foe before I attack. Except Eileen in Bloodborne. The fact that she's facing away from you and her unique idle stance isn't obvious makes her look threatening as hell on that balcony, and her facing away from me means I don't get to see that she doesn't aggro me before I decide this is the perfect sneak attack opportunity.
there is also the classic instance of a friendly npc running toward you and you shooting them because you thought they were an enemy
I've been away from this EC for A WHILE. Where's tiny voice Dan? When did this new normal voice start? Who is it? xD
Dan left EC. The new narrator is Matthew Krol
Tiny voice Dan no longer works at EC. They announced it a few Extra Credits ago (the main show).
Past Dan left EC but took over the Extra Play channel (renaming it to PlayFrame), while Not Dan assumed the presenting here.
By the way, Dan is starting his own RUclips channel called "New Frame Plus." He's in production for a lot of his videos, but he's uploaded a few already, if you want to see what he's been up to recently.
As others have mentioned, Dan has moved on to other things (and we wish him all the best!) In the meantime, I have learned to love Matt, and I think the Extra shows are in great hands! (mouths?)
Yknow... I've never disliked Matt, but I've come to REALLY like him, which I didn't think it would happen because Dan was just so amazing and iconic. Good shit Matt. Another great video by the ExtraCrew. Please never leave us
I like you Matt, you're making this your own thing with all the corny jokes and your cat popping in whenever it's a nice touch to say your different but the show still has the same pedigree. Keep it up man!
Also this episode was great albeit a bit confusing but I think any conversation about how the brain works can go that rout real quick.
Will you ever make a video of the battle for midway?
I've never heard Shmup pronounced as "shump". Was that just a speaking error, or do some people intentionally say it that way?
Glory to mankind!
Oh, wait...
Devola and Popola do not approve.
Thank you, you have given me something to think about in a project which I am working on!
Uhh! A topic I had to work with in media design school for two years! Understanding gestalt is key!
This reminds me of an unrelated topic. If you suddenly could only remember the last three things you saw, what would count as one "thing"? Say, if four bullets were fired at you, could you remember all of them as one thing? Or would you forget one? What about if you saw them all in a reflection; would that be one "thing"?
I enjoy Extra History, but the game design episodes will always be my favorite
I love the Voltron drawing at 2:07! Ahhhhh!!
This explained the whole "gestalt consciousness" thing so much better than my psychology class :P
This is awesome I don't know if you are planning to make a series about psicology but would be great. I love how you explain stuff
I do like how Matthew has a different "voice" from Dan in that Matt's more expressive and informal whereas Dan appeared more focused and rational.
When you first said shump, i thought it was an industry term I didn't know. A little after the second time, I thought "ohhhhh, he's never played a shoot 'em up before."
I think NewDan has grown on me as much as he can, and I appreciate that.
This brought me back to my days in graphic design school
...and this is the episode where you start to realize most of the drawn people in this channel are detached hands and heads relatively close to a thingy with feet.
Shmup, not shump. I love this channel and I love your reading. It just stands out to me like people who say turrent when they mean turret.
"That's a dog"
Is Zoe still there?
CATS AND DOGS ARE LIVING TOGETHER
MASS HYSTERIA
I always find it funny when native english speakers speak german, but I wouldn't call it Gestalt principle, because the word itself usually refers to a suspicious person or character, although in a sentence it can mean to give form to something, but the first ting that always comes to mind when hearing the word is a person, so another expression would have been better (I think). There were also a few things that I believe were mentioned in a prior video, but other than that I thought the video was great. I love these short dives into the innerworkings of the human mind and how we can use them in design. Keep up the good work ^^
"Gestalt" is just generally "form, figure, shape", not necessarily suspicious. That said, it's basically a technical term that has been established quite a while ago, it's not something that EC came up with.
Gestalt is actually german and means "Shape", "Appearance", "Sillouette" or "being" (as a noun)
Actually, even with your fire and ice knight examples, their powers are also mirrored, so my brain 200% grouped them even more.
Shump? Do you mean shmup? I.e., "Shoot-em up?"
I love how in english some random things and concepts just geht German names: Gestalt, Poltergeist, Lagerstätte, kindergarten and so on
How does this relate to affordances? Is a gestalt a specific type of affordance, or is there something that differentiates these concepts?
Amazing how our brain always thinks in 3rd person.
"Shump" is wrong, but it's odd that no one on your end questioned it upon hearing it.
Today I also learned what Gestalt actually sounds like when said aloud; previously I'd only read the word on Transformer forums. :T
You thought they couldn't do it...but they did... 2:03
not a voltron fan, but I am impressed.
The supreme commander loyalist rush suddenly makes more sense
It is amazing that German words have such a narrow meaning in English.
In German Gestalt has a very broad meaning, it can be used to describe the propertys of something if used in combination with an adjective.
It can also mean the face of something, the look, the build up as well as its shape.
Essentially the word Gestalt represents the non descript person or shape, if you don't know anything about something, you can only see the shadow, it's a Gestalt.
Gestalt can even be used as a word for ghost or specter.
stefanobi loanwords can be funny that way. Apparently the Japanese word "arubaito" (from arbeit) specifically means part-time job
10/10 for closing sound effects. XD
Good video as always
Interesting, I wonder if this has been used in the opposite way, use the gestalt thing to bait you into thinking that an enemy will behave or do something based on other enemies you've seen only to do something wildly different that caughts you off-guard and then kills you.
Me: These objects are unrelated to each other.
Brain to me: These objects are related to each other.
This taught me more about Gestalt laws then my psychology class
I LOLed at the EC-ified Voltron.
I have an unrelated question: What is the best way to make the player WANT to take risks?
Rewards. You can make a risk/reward trade-off
Dive a bit into game theory and behavioral economics. I can recommend
Kahneman and Tversky works for the later. Game theory I haven't found a nice introduction to for which you don't need a professor on the side, but I've heard a lot of praise for Varoufakis' book on the subject