Hey Shaun, Happy to help! The Technika is a stunning machine. Lot's of extra touches in the finishing detail and fabulous engineering under the hood! Marc
Hi a, thanks for the comment! Had to keep the video reasonable and limit to 5 machines - also, this video made in 2021. The Mara X is in our best of 2023 video here: ruclips.net/video/Oe15ZFi5IhI/видео.html
Sorry if this was already mentioned, but why at 9:26 does the Technika brew lever move down by itself? Also, have noticed in many videos that when the joystick steam is turned off, the steam can be slow to completely stop. Is that normal, or indicative of an issue? Thx!!
Hi k, No need to be sorry! The slight move of the lever is normal. Sometimes when brand new or recently lubricated they can move even more. E61 groups do have internal lubrication with food safe grease of cams and actuators. I think the slow steam stop is just residual steam beyond the valve working its way out through the valve cavity and steam arm. In normal use, the steam tip should remain below the milk surface for a few seconds as the last bits of pressure exit. Marc
Reasons why I chose my Rocket Giotto Cronometro R: 1. Height- - By removing one stage of the rocket booster feet and not putting on the cup warmer guard, it had the lowest height 2. Wattage - It had the lowest power consumption in it's class and I don't live in a new house so I need to be careful. 3. Price - It happened to be cheaper than it's equivalent competitor. 4. Flow Control - I'm sure some retailers don't want to officially say it, but the Profitec flow control valve fits on any E61 Rocket and yes I do have one and I've even seen it on an Appartamento. I do have to take into account if the espresso machine is heating up AND if the grinder is on for total wattage on that circuit. A Ceado 37s is going to add 500w to whatever the machine is using. So lets compare and I totally respect Profitec, but the Profitec 700 brings me 200+ watts closer to tripping the breaker than the Rocket. FYI, once the machine is hot, the electricity draw is much less. I have a home automation switch that monitors current draw live. The 1200 watt Rocket can draw 1400w and from what I understand the Profitec can draw 1600+ watts.
Great video as always, but I would've loved to have seen the Bezzera Magica PID included in this list. Where do you think it stacks up compared to the models shown?
Hi Mongoose, Thanks for the comment. In case you missed it I have this video on the Magica: ruclips.net/video/IBUjAZaJY_o/видео.html Magicas are currently in short supply. It's a fine machine. I like the lever operated valves. It's a more capable machine than the Appartamento as it has PID and dual gauges. Similar to the Pro 500 PID and if one has a preference for copper boiler over stainless (I don't) the Magica is copper while the 500 is stainless. Personally, I prefer the look and finishing of the Pro 500. The ECM Mechanika V Slim has a slightly larger 2.2L boiler and I like the gauges up higher on that machine. Marc
I have the Rocket Giotto-V cronometro. It includes a hidden PID and a subtle shot timer. Worthwhile upgrade over the Appartamento. Has worked great. No problems for 2 years now.
Hi PN, Thanks for your comments on your Cronometro V. I agree it has more going for it and is a nice upgrade over the Appartamento with PID and the shot timer. Interesting side note... For years Rocket resisted putting visible digital displays on their machines. One of their owner/designers thought it took away from the classic look. So most all of them had the PID control hidden behind the drip tray or removable from the machine like the old R58 or newer Cinquantotto. Marc
5:25 is there any reason why water flow doesn't seem to be "distributed" nicely ? I guess that an upgrade to an IMS shower screen, will help. But how to achieve perfect water flow ? Like that 9:37
Hi K, Sometimes it's just the surface tension of the water. The next time you look at flow from the group it may be better. The IMS screens do tend to have better flow patterns. Marc
Hey t, Thanks for the comment. Used Crema Wave: www.wholelattelove.com/products/whole-latte-love-crema-wave-whole-bean-espresso on the ECM Mechanika and Profitec Pro 500. Maromas Orphea: www.wholelattelove.com/products/maromas-orphea-whole-bean-espresso was used on the rest. Marc
What are your thoughts on the ECM Mechanica Slim VI heritage? It has PID settings but not PID control and seems to be fully featured. I’m coming from a sage barista express and trying to get one that starts up relatively quickly and has full features. Even compared to Profitec 500
Hi chris, Here's my in-depth look at Mechanika VI Slim Heritage from January of this year ruclips.net/video/rbgCU_hzyDc/видео.html I think it's a beautiful and capable machine and would be a serious upgrade over the BE. It does not have the degree by degree PID control but the low and medium settings on the 3 way is likely enough for the majority of users. Be aware, like any E61 group machine total heat up to temperature stable is 20-25 minutes. The machine does have a mechanical power switch so you can use an appropriately rated outlet timer to have the machine heated up and ready to go on your schedule. If it's a Wifi timer you can do very complex schedules or turn on/off remotely. If you want degree by degree PID the Pro 500 is the way to go at a comparable price www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-500-pid-espresso-machine-with-flow-control Hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hi Marc. Thanks for replying. Super video linked as well. I’ve watched it twice and very informative. I just love the stainless steel brushed look to a coffee machine which rules out so many of the competition. I also love the slim design of the ECM VI Heritage so I think it’s probably the one for me. I would think that 3 settings for PID temp is probably ok as I assume those manufacturers got pretty good reasons for choosing the 3 temps in the settings. I has never thought of using a wifi plug (I’ve loads of them) so could easily schedule them to stay come on. Thanks again
I recently acquired the Profitec Pro 500 PID… It’s an awesome machine. The milk frothing is a learning curve… at least for me. The steam wand is very thick and the 2 holes so spread apart, makes it kind of tricky to get the milk rolling in the jug. Also, I need to put the PID in it’s max temperature to get decent steaming power. But the flavor is on another level.
Nice. My Mechanika V slim is on the list! Can't fault it really. A shot timer would be nice. Hey Mark I have managed to get quite a lot of surface scratches on my machine. Do you have any tips? Do I have to replace the drip tray and the cup holder?
Hi Hans, Thanks for sharing impressions your machine. You might be able to buff out minor scratches with a polishing compound. If trying that, do a small test in a less conspicuous area. Other advice - avoid cups with raw un-glazed bottoms. Those will scratch for sure! Marc
Another great video Marc! Such beautiful machines. Question for you - if we were ever to return to the UK do any of these have the voltage flexibility to cope with US and UK or do you need to always buy the version made for the country? I think I know the answer but wanted to check...
Hey Rob, Thanks for the kind comment. You should be able to purchase a power adapter to operate the machine in the UK. I believe Italy uses the same power standard as the UK 220v/50. I've done video shoots in Italy using US power standard lighting with power adapters. I was often using 1,500 - 2,000 watts for lights which is a bit higher than what most prosumer level machines draw. If you need an adapter just be sure it's rated to handle the wattage of your machine. Marc
HI DL, There may be some steam performance info in the individual videos of each machine. Thing is it's difficult to steam performance test HX boiler machines on a level playing field. To get a specific brew temp they may be running at different temps/pressures in the boiler which yields slightly different steaming times. In general steaming performance is good across these machines. Even running different temps in their boilers I don't expect there'd be more than a few seconds difference in steaming the same amount of milk in each machine. Hope that helps! Marc
Mark hi!! I’ve LOVED my brand new profitect 500 PID. Do you have recommendations on customizing my Knobs and Lever???? I’d love some wood tones in my machine!
Hi Josh! The Pro 500 is an easy machine to love! Did the custom options on the Technika V wet your appetite? Stick around as we are constantly adding custom wood upgrades for other machines. No firm ETA on those for Pro 500 but shouldn't be too long. Marc
Hi Mark Thanks for doing all of these videos, it’s a great resource for us who don’t know stuff😉. I’m not able to be one of your customers because I’m on the other side of the planet to you but I have a question that I hope you might answer for me. I’m looking at buying a La Parvoni Cellini because it’s within my budget, I’m anxious about it because I’ve never tried a heat exchanger machine and from my research I think it is a copy of an earlier version of the Rocket Cellini. There’s no pid or easily accessible pressure control but I’m a newbie so will that matter. It will be an upgrade from my sunbeam Torino machine though. If you have any advice I would be very pleased to hear it. Thank you
Hi Laurie, You're welcome for the videos and thank you for the kind comments. If I have my history right the Cellini has been through a number of companies. I have not touched one in a long time but it's a good machine! So long as it's new or used and rebuilt and you have local resources you'll be fine. Be sure and pair it with a good grinder! Marc
Hey, I have never pulled espresso or steamed milk in my life, but I do enjoy a good coffee so I'm considering buying an espresso machine. Eyeing up the profitec pro 500 and wondering if it's worth jumping in straight to something like that or shouldn't I bother and get one of the more entry level machines? I don't want to really miss out on features/have to upgrade in the future. Cheers for the UK!
Hey Tom, So people who get into home espresso do often experience upgraditis. Entry-level machines can be limiting sSo if you are at all serious and will be doing milk-based drinks I recommend going with a machine with a heat-exchange boiler. HX machines can brew and steam milk simultaneously. The Pro 500 PID is an excellent HX boiler. If you don't mind a slightly longer work flow, single boiler machines are a good place to start. Single boilers cannot brew and steam simultaneously. The best value in premium entry-level single boiler machines ids the Gaggia Classic Pro: www.wholelattelove.com/products/gaggia-classic-pro Marc
hi do you think that if manufacturers were to install a temperature probe in the group heads along with a display built into the frame that it would alleviate the issues that people have with HX machines that sometimes run too cool at the group head. a temperature display like this would allow you to flush water and get the right temp at the group head accurately. i know there are displays that can screw onto the group head but what if this function were to be built into the machine? i think that this is a simple and reasonable thing to ask from manufacturers
Hi p, Thanks for the question. Yes, aftermarket temp probes are available like this one: www.wholelattelove.com/products/e61-group-thermometer-kit Bezzara machines with their BZ group do have temp probes in the group combined with heating elements in the group under PID temperature control. Marc
Have been looking to buy one of these, but all of them have super long heatup times. Do you guys have recommendations for prosumer machines that can also heat up super fast, as I like to drink coffee during the day and don't want to wait 30 mins for it? I currently use a Barista Pro and its ready to brew in the time I grind and prepare my portafilter, but I am looking to upgrade. Anything higher end that can do that, but also be able to steam milk faster than the Breville? It would also be helpful to have an approximate heatup time in the specs on the your site for each device.
Hi AS, Machines with E61 groups need about 30 minutes of warmup to be temperature stable. Machines like the Barista Pro use a thermoblock boiler which heats water on demand so they do produce hot water much faster. On the flip side temperatures are not nearly as accurate and heating of the portafilter is not a thing on that type of product. Thermoblocks also lack the steaming power as you mention. Prosumer level machines with boiler over group design heat up faster - usually needing 10 minutes of warmup. Machines like the Profitec Pro 300 have a boiler over group. It's a dual boiler machine so much better steaming power: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-300-dual-boiler-espresso-machine-open-box Another option are Bezzera machines with the BZ group. The BZ group has electric heating elements inside the group so they're ready to go in about 10 minutes as well. I like the Bezzera BZ13: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bezzera-bz13-pm Another option is to use a wifi appliance grade timer so you can have the machine power up in advance - even turn it on/off remotely. Timers work on any machine with a mechanical power switch. Hope that helps! Marc
Hi AA, The round knobs require a different valve assembly which does not fit on the machine. Lever valves on the Technika V are the same as those on the ECM Synchronika which is a dual boiler version of the Technika. The Profitec Pro 700 is internally identical to the Synchronika but has the round knobs. ECM and Profitec machines are manufactured in the same facility in Milan, Italy so the Technika and Pro 700 share some DNA. Check out the Pro 700 here: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-700-dual-boiler-with-flow-control Marc
Hey Marc, Why didn’t you include the Pathfinder? I was expecting that to be included because you had input on the build. Here’s my journey…I am finally upgrading from my 15 year old Ranchilio Sylvia and I’m having such a hard time pulling the trigger on a machine. Started with the the Rocket Apartamento. Then looked at the BZ13. Then the Pro300. Then I just looked at the Pathfinder, but I’m nervous to buy it due to lack of reviews. But it’s seems like such a nice machine. I’ve been watching espresso machine review for the last week. Help me man!!! BTW. You’re reviews are the best
Hi Marc, I want to upgrade from the gaggia classic pro to either the profitec pro 500 or the 600, do you think the 600 is worth the difference in price? If so, why do you think so? Thank you and I'm happy you guys have the canadian website. Definitely it's going to be easier to buy from there.
Hi APL, Thanks for the question. Is it worth the price difference depends on how you will use the machine. With the 600 you'll have independent control of temps in the brew and steam boilers. That means you can change your steam boiler temp without affecting your brew temperature. Also with the 600 you'll have more steaming power as the boiler can run at 270F and make ~2 bar of pressure. Pressure in 500 is much lower - more like 1.3 bar depending on what you set boiler temp to but gets nowhere near the 2 bar of the 600. When you change boiler temp on the 500 you're changing the brew temp and steam power. With a dedicated brew boiler the 600 is a bit more accurate with brew temps. The 500 does very well in that department but if on for long periods without use you may need to do a cooling flush. Hope that helps1 Marc
Hey WLL, I want to plumb my ECM as part of my upcoming kitchen reno. Question: in your experience do people run water and drain lines up through countertop, or back through the wall/backsplash? (Preference is not to drill a hole in new quartz countertops, just not sure how good drainage will be if line goes back towards the wall. Thanks!
I would get a counter company to drill a hole. As an electrician, who often works on commercial espresso machines I get this done on kitchen islands to allow unsightly appliance cables to disappear from sight. Just make sure if you do go through the wall and you are in a colder climate, the wall is not an outside wall. Also, go for the filtration/ remineralization of your supply water. It makes a huge difference.
Hi AD, Thanks for the question. We usually go through the countertop. @starke6666 brings up some good points on cold walls, having a pro do the work and filtering your water! I understand reluctance to drill through countertop - that's a commitment. If going through the wall works for you just be sure the drain hose does not rise higher than the collection point under the drip tray. Hole through wall needs to be flush with countertop. Marc
Awesome video. I recently bought the E61 flow control set for my Profitec Pro 500. Only issue is, the pressure gauge never registers anything, but the flow control seems to work nicely. The pressure gauge on the actual machine goes up to the 8-9 bars when the flow control lever is off, but when I start to apply more flow, the pressure gauge on the machine drops, and the pressure gauge mounted on the group head is still not doing anything. Do you have any suggestions? Could it be that I didn't use any teflon tape when mounting the gauge?
Hi Philip, Thanks for the comment and question. If you were to put a blind filter basket (back flush disc) in your portafilter and operate the machine's pump with the flow control open do you get a pressure reading on the group gauge? If not, I'm guessing the gauge is defective. While not using teflon tape or washer when mounting the gauge could result in a leak I don't see how it would prevent the gauge from reading. If you purchased from us I'd reach out to our Tech Support staff for assistance here: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/contact-us Marc
hello whole latte love...I have an ecm technika v profi that I purchased from you. my machine is older without pid. can I DIY upgrade my machine to pid?
Hi Paul, Thanks for your patronage. Well, anything is possible but it's not something we have done or have a procedure for. You'd need to get a temperature probe into the boiler, rework the electronics in the machine to provide power to a PID control board, mount PID display, control board, DC power supply and more. Following that a bunch of testing to figure out what the offset is - what temp in the boiler results in a particular brew water temp at the group. Marc
Hi Marc Again Thanks for your quick response. You know it can be a great video to compare Profitec/ECM HX vs Profitec/ECM dual boilers in espresso quality (without milk or sugar). Let me explain, if you use high quality water (with epson salt and baking soda in distilled water), the HX machines use fresh water for the reservoir vs. DB which is boiling water when it heats up the machine and raises the PH. This will be a wonderful video to compare how high quality water in HX vs DB interacts when extracting espresso. I read in your response about Profitec will provide drain on DB machine to do descaling, now I'm moving to 600 or 700 Pro.
Hi FG, You are welcome. Thanks for suggesting the comparison. Not sure I follow the idea. Is your suggestion to compare "engineered' water from reservoir in HX machine vs. plumbed tap water used to feed a DB machine. Reading in, perhaps you're seeking to compare brew water quality difference under the often correct assumption that water in the brew boiler of a DB machine is held above boiling point? DB machines do have an offset such that the water within the boiler is hotter than the water contacting the coffee. This is due to the heat sink action of the E61 group lowering the temp as water travels from the boiler to the coffee. FYI it's similar in HX boilers with water within the HX of the boiler often near or above boiling temps. Let me consider your idea and perhaps you can clarify. In the meantime I do have this recent video which compares brewing with filtered water vs. pure zero TDS RO water (not a good thing to do!): ruclips.net/video/w6Fo9-EFrkc/видео.html Marc
Hi Alex, Thanks for the question. Based on the legacy of their Expobar machines, the Crem HX offers a lot of bang for the buck. It's made in a more modern fashion with more plastics used but at its heart has what it takes for excellent results. We appreciate it's massive drip tray, shot mirror, upward facing UI and it's commercial rated. Learn more in our full video on the Crem HX here: ruclips.net/video/Fkic3LfVyYk/видео.html Marc
One of the major reasons I'm looking to upgrade my espresso machine (from the Breville single boiler) is because it's SO freakin' loud. I feel nervous about waking people in the morning. Obviously, a rotary pump would solve this, but I've also heard that the Profitec 500 is pretty quite for a vibratory pump. What would you or anyone here's experience be and opinion be on that Profitec 500 and the noise level?
Hi Leela, The Pro 500 is a relatively quiet vibration pump machine and produces less noise than the Breville. As you mentioned, a rotary pump is even quieter. Marc
Hi Marc, After reviewed E61 on this category in person, I prefer by far Profitec and ECM company over to others brands (quality and attention to details in another level). I choose Profitec 500 Pro (PID) because the espresso quality is the same as 600 PRO but... this is the BIG BUT prefer 500 Pro because can realize descale (HX) on my home without risk my machine every time that deliver to authorize dealer (for me is a game changer). 500 Pro with flow control and PID, is the perfect machine for espresso lovers (without milk and sugar). The only improvement that will be perfect on 500 PRO is put the same PID screen on the same location that 600 and 700 Pro, don't worry still amazing good looking machine.
Hi FG, Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Profitec, and ECM especially, are a cut above most of the competition as far as quality and finishing details. Pro 500 is a fine machine. It's true it's easier for end users to descale machines with HX boilers. That said, I had a long talk with Michael Hauck CEO of Profitec/ECM about descaling his dual boiler machines at the recent SCA show in Boston. Recently he's added brew boiler drains to the Pro 600, Pro 700 and Synchronika. With a drain it's not as risky for end users to descale these machines as it's easier to get the descaler out of the boiler without running it through the hydraulics of the machine and risk loosened scale particles plugging things up. The best course for those with dual boiler machines is to use a water quality which does not cause scale deposits in the first place. For that, we recommend filtering water with BWT Water and More products. They use ion-exchange to replace much of the scale causing calcium in water with magnesium. You get water with a mineral level needed for flavor and prevention of over-extraction that will not cause scale when used as directed. So long as your tap water is reasonable - like not mineral laden well water or similar BWT prevents scale. Learn more about BWT options here: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/bwt Marc
Hey Lise, A lot of good choices! Depends on what's important to you. For camp... I love the Pro 500 in this video. But, if for "camp" perhaps a machine that heats up quickly and is a good value? The Bezzera BZ13 (not in this video) is an HX boiler machine which ticks those boxes. It's available in a manual or dosing version, 4 body colors and with rosewood trim. Here's my review video of the BZ13: ruclips.net/video/DMbCgF1554E/видео.html See colors, styles and pricing here: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/semi-automatic-espresso-machines?_=pf&pf_v_brand=Bezzera&pf_t_temperature_regulation=temperature_control%3APID Hope that helps! Marc
Hi Yosi, I do love the Crem One HX! It's an excellent value similar to its Expobar predecessors. If I'm not mistaken it's the lowest priced plumbable machine. A departure from classic machine design but packs a ton of features for the $$. If we had 6 slots in this video instead of 5 it likely would be in the mix. Marc
Hi Marc. There is talk online about how HXs work better when the PID's probe is located in the grouphead, given the success of the Lelit MaraX and some people modding their HXs. Any reason why not other brands are incorporing this way of monitoring temperature? Other than the steam pressure varying depending on where the grouphead is sitting temp-wise. Edit: by work better I mean no need to do cooling/needing very short flushes.
Hi MrM, Thanks for the question. I have not used the MaraX so cannot comment on it's setup. But, I can add a couple of thoughts. Are you familiar with Bezzera's BZ group machines? I know it's different than what the Mara is doing but their BZ groups do have PID controlled heating elements within the group. Temperature sensing in the group and a heating element there as well. The result is very fast heat up times and more consistent brew temps. I have done extensive Scace testing of HX boiler machines with PID (temp probe in boiler) and was amazed at the brew temp consistency. Based on my testing I no longer flush most HX PID machines prior to extraction unless they've been sitting on and idle for extended times. Coming from pressurestat controlled HX machines of the past which almost always needed flushing it was amazing. One key to the consistency in HX PID machines is proper sizing of the flow restrictor in the E61 thermosiphon loop. As the E61 group head works as a heat sink for the boiler ambient temps are important. Those running a machine in a cold room will have very different brew temps than those running in a warmer room. It's an extreme example, but last year I did some Scace testing of brew temps after holding a wet room temperature rag on an E61 group for 10 seconds prior to running the test. The wet rag dropped Scace temps by ~10F. Marc
Hi, I believe those comments you read from where the probe should be or where they are more effective, are technicalities that won’t get anyone anywhere. The truth is, all these PID machines are constantly tested and reviewed every day on their factories so we get consistent quality as Marc has previously have tested with a scace and demonstrated their consistency.
@@Wholelattelovepage i recall something about those electronically controlled groups. They do seem like a neat idea, victoria Arduino have been doing that for some years. Just for the sake of curiosity, do they allow for some kind of flow control? The calibration of flow restriction in the loop seems like an awesome idea to solve the need of flushes. Thanks for entertaining this silly aficionado Marc!
@@mattgrigsby1796 yep, im an aussie Mara X owner and i cant tell you how much i love this machine. WLL are too biased with their limited range for hardware recommendations. beware. it's a shame that they can cause such harm by not enlightening possible buyers to the fact that the Mara is lightyears in front for the money. damn close to unsubbing actually
Hi Marc, I enjoy watching your u tube’s, very informative. I am considering an HX machine, either the Rocket Giotto R or ECM Technika V Profi PID. I was originally going to buy the Profitec Pro 700 v2 but I’m worried about descaling, as you recommend getting this done professionally. I’m assuming if I buy one of the HX machines, the descaling can be done by me at home? Of the HX machines, I want a rotary pump as I might decide to plumb it down the track…what are your thoughts? Should I buy the ECM and option flow control? The price is similar to the Giotto but better quality? Or should I not worry about descaling and buy the Profitec Pro 700 v2 with flow control?
Hi Mark, Thanks for the kind comment and questions. Descaling of HX machines can be done at home. Here's a video detailing the basics: ruclips.net/video/yEGfyJkWSqU/видео.html HX boiler rotary pump options are the Rocket (Giotto or Mozzafiatto) Cronometro R or the ECM Technika V Profi. All are very good machines. I give an edge to the ECM in overall build and finish quality while the Rockets put a bit more into the branding. Flow control does open up a lot of possibilities. I recommend going flow control if you see espresso as a hobby and would enjoy working with higher-end coffees or how you can make average coffees better. With a Pro 700 and other dual boilers you can avoid descaling by using properly filtered water. I recommend BWT (Best Water Treatment) filter options. They use patented calcium to magnesium ion-exchange to eliminate scaling potential when used as directed as long as your tap water does not have edge case issues. Their options include an in-line plumbed option: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-bestmax-premium-filter-package-w-besthead-flex Penguin Pitcher: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-penguin-2-7-l-water-pitcher and in-reservoir pad filters: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-bestsave-s-anti-scale-filter If you do not go with flow control both the Technika and the Pro 700 can do line pressure pre-infusion when plumbed. The Rocket machines do not. For line pressure pre-infusion you will want a pressure regulator on the plumb line - that's part of of the BWT in-line filter linked above. Hope that helps! Marc
WLL has pretty notoriously had a grunge against lelit for a while now for some reason . see their bianca v pro 700 video. it's too bad because they're all great machines and more options, and being transparent about those options, is only to their benefit.
I think bz16 (PM / DE) is underrated, the pm version is similar to bz10, come with larger boiler, and rotary pump instead. maybe the DE version is the next level from these list on video
Hello Marc. Appreciate you constantly make top quality videos. I recently did an upgrade from breville barista express to profitec 500. Grinder is compak k3 touch. Tried many grind settings to dial in the new machine. I found have to fill 21-22g coffee in double basket to have 9 bar pressure in group head. Anything less than 20g, pressure will stay less than 8 bars and will leave big gap between the top of puck and shower screen. And puck quite muddy. Do you think there’s anything wrong with my grinder or espresso machine or basket filter? Thank you.
Hey Yue, Thanks for the kind comment and question. As you have done, you can always slow down an extraction and increase the pressure by using more ground coffee. But, you can do the same by using a finer grind. Changing grind size is preferred to up-dosing. Your grinder should be capable of grinding fine enough that you do not have to up-dose if you don't want to. Also, don't get to wrapped up in getting to 9 bar brew pressure. Fantastic espresso does not require 9 bar of pressure. Soupy pucks can be caused by excess headroom, dirty shower screen and/or group components. Backflush your machine with plain water on a regular basis maybe every 10-20 brew cycles and backflush with Cafiza every 100 or so brew cycles. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thank you Marc for the reply and guid. I’ve tried finer grind setting. With the same amount of coffee bean, it will leave more headroom above the puck and make it even more soupy. You are absolutely right that I should shift my focus on the espresso drink. I’ve used it for almost 3 weeks. Absolutely love it. Thanks again for your videos to let me made a good purchase.
Wow! Cant believe im back again at WLL. 6 years ago i started with the delonghi $20 espresso maker then got an expobar sold it after 3 years started roasted my own beans, got an apartamento replaced it with r58 after 1 month then sold the r58 after 2 years and now here i am.. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Couldn't agree more 🤣🤣🤣, my plan is to get a moke pot and use french press fore steamed milk. I i get the itch after that im definitely getting another machine lol
Thanks for the nice video, Marc ! It was asked before … but could you comment again on temperature stability of flow control on heat exchangers. As fast as I understand the flow of water through the heat exchanger determines its temperature for brewing. How much does flow control change that balance in your experience ? Did you do some testing on this ?
Hi FK, I have not done specific testing of brew water temps at different flow rates. I suspect that flow rates have a higher impact on extraction qualities than a few degrees of temp change. I do know the majority of PID HX machines have very good temperature stability. It's actually remarkable compared to 5+ years ago when most all HX machines were controlled by pressurestats. In those, a lot of flushing to remove over heated brew water. On most HX PID machines flushing isn't required unless machine has been sitting on and idle for long periods. Marc
Me watching this video after pulling the trigger 2 weeks ago on the Bezzera Magica w/ PID... I got to say that I really like it. I kinda regretted it just now when seeing the TechniKa V, but is significantly more expensive, so I am sticking to my Bezzera! BTW, Marc's video on the Magica made me pull the trigger... Marc, don't be so tricky!
Hey Mark... I JUST pulled the trigger on a HX machine (being delivered this Thurs 12/9). Unfortunately, the Crem didn't make your list. :-( I'd love to hear your feedback and if I happened to get the wrong machine? *sobs* LOL
Hey Chris, Don't cry the Crem One HX is a good machine. It's a more modern take on the Italian classic at a great price for a PID, plumbable machine and it's got the shot mirror. Just too many machines and only 5 slots. If it makes you feel better we've been using a Crem One Duo-V as the daily driver for the studio crew for a few months now and like it. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks Marc for the reply. No crying here... it's already purchased! LOL However, there's a HUGE difference between the HX and Duo-V. ;-) I had an Alex Duetto VI a good few years back until the wife said it took up too much counter space. Moved to a Breville Oracle. Now coming back to a REAL machine. I can't wait!
I’ve had the Profi V for about two months, stunning machine. Your videos were a major help in deciding what to buy.
Hey Shaun, Happy to help! The Technika is a stunning machine. Lot's of extra touches in the finishing detail and fabulous engineering under the hood!
Marc
Very informative video.. Thank you! May I ask why you didn't include Lelit Mara X? Is it not recommended?
Hi a, thanks for the comment! Had to keep the video reasonable and limit to 5 machines - also, this video made in 2021. The Mara X is in our best of 2023 video here: ruclips.net/video/Oe15ZFi5IhI/видео.html
Sorry if this was already mentioned, but why at 9:26 does the Technika brew lever move down by itself? Also, have noticed in many videos that when the joystick steam is turned off, the steam can be slow to completely stop. Is that normal, or indicative of an issue? Thx!!
Hi k, No need to be sorry! The slight move of the lever is normal. Sometimes when brand new or recently lubricated they can move even more. E61 groups do have internal lubrication with food safe grease of cams and actuators. I think the slow steam stop is just residual steam beyond the valve working its way out through the valve cavity and steam arm. In normal use, the steam tip should remain below the milk surface for a few seconds as the last bits of pressure exit.
Marc
@@WholelattelovepageThx!
Reasons why I chose my Rocket Giotto Cronometro R:
1. Height- - By removing one stage of the rocket booster feet and not putting on the cup warmer guard, it had the lowest height
2. Wattage - It had the lowest power consumption in it's class and I don't live in a new house so I need to be careful.
3. Price - It happened to be cheaper than it's equivalent competitor.
4. Flow Control - I'm sure some retailers don't want to officially say it, but the Profitec flow control valve fits on any E61 Rocket and yes I do have one and I've even seen it on an Appartamento.
I do have to take into account if the espresso machine is heating up AND if the grinder is on for total wattage on that circuit. A Ceado 37s is going to add 500w to whatever the machine is using. So lets compare and I totally respect Profitec, but the Profitec 700 brings me 200+ watts closer to tripping the breaker than the Rocket.
FYI, once the machine is hot, the electricity draw is much less. I have a home automation switch that monitors current draw live. The 1200 watt Rocket can draw 1400w and from what I understand the Profitec can draw 1600+ watts.
Hi Todd, Thanks a whole latte for sharing your reasons for choosing the Cronometro R. Great information for those researching!
Marc
I just got my Appartamento Serie Nera delivered a few days ago, and it’s been great so far!
Hi Alex, Thanks for sharing your impressions and congrats on the new machine!
Marc
Hi Marc, agree 100% with your technika comments. I've had it for more than a year and it really is a dream machine!!
Hey TT, Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Technika! She is a beauty!
Marc
Great video as always, but I would've loved to have seen the Bezzera Magica PID included in this list. Where do you think it stacks up compared to the models shown?
Hi Mongoose, Thanks for the comment. In case you missed it I have this video on the Magica: ruclips.net/video/IBUjAZaJY_o/видео.html
Magicas are currently in short supply. It's a fine machine. I like the lever operated valves. It's a more capable machine than the Appartamento as it has PID and dual gauges. Similar to the Pro 500 PID and if one has a preference for copper boiler over stainless (I don't) the Magica is copper while the 500 is stainless. Personally, I prefer the look and finishing of the Pro 500. The ECM Mechanika V Slim has a slightly larger 2.2L boiler and I like the gauges up higher on that machine.
Marc
I have the Rocket Giotto-V cronometro. It includes a hidden PID and a subtle shot timer. Worthwhile upgrade over the Appartamento. Has worked great. No problems for 2 years now.
Hi PN, Thanks for your comments on your Cronometro V. I agree it has more going for it and is a nice upgrade over the Appartamento with PID and the shot timer. Interesting side note... For years Rocket resisted putting visible digital displays on their machines. One of their owner/designers thought it took away from the classic look. So most all of them had the PID control hidden behind the drip tray or removable from the machine like the old R58 or newer Cinquantotto.
Marc
5:25 is there any reason why water flow doesn't seem to be "distributed" nicely ? I guess that an upgrade to an IMS shower screen, will help. But how to achieve perfect water flow ? Like that 9:37
Hi K, Sometimes it's just the surface tension of the water. The next time you look at flow from the group it may be better. The IMS screens do tend to have better flow patterns.
Marc
Another great video, Marc. What beans were you guys using in this video? What beautiful crema!
Hey t, Thanks for the comment. Used Crema Wave: www.wholelattelove.com/products/whole-latte-love-crema-wave-whole-bean-espresso on the ECM Mechanika and Profitec Pro 500. Maromas Orphea: www.wholelattelove.com/products/maromas-orphea-whole-bean-espresso was used on the rest.
Marc
What are your thoughts on the ECM Mechanica Slim VI heritage? It has PID settings but not PID control and seems to be fully featured. I’m coming from a sage barista express and trying to get one that starts up relatively quickly and has full features. Even compared to Profitec 500
Hi chris, Here's my in-depth look at Mechanika VI Slim Heritage from January of this year ruclips.net/video/rbgCU_hzyDc/видео.html
I think it's a beautiful and capable machine and would be a serious upgrade over the BE. It does not have the degree by degree PID control but the low and medium settings on the 3 way is likely enough for the majority of users. Be aware, like any E61 group machine total heat up to temperature stable is 20-25 minutes. The machine does have a mechanical power switch so you can use an appropriately rated outlet timer to have the machine heated up and ready to go on your schedule. If it's a Wifi timer you can do very complex schedules or turn on/off remotely. If you want degree by degree PID the Pro 500 is the way to go at a comparable price www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-500-pid-espresso-machine-with-flow-control
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hi Marc. Thanks for replying. Super video linked as well. I’ve watched it twice and very informative. I just love the stainless steel brushed look to a coffee machine which rules out so many of the competition. I also love the slim design of the ECM VI Heritage so I think it’s probably the one for me. I would think that 3 settings for PID temp is probably ok as I assume those manufacturers got pretty good reasons for choosing the 3 temps in the settings. I has never thought of using a wifi plug (I’ve loads of them) so could easily schedule them to stay come on. Thanks again
I recently acquired the Profitec Pro 500 PID… It’s an awesome machine. The milk frothing is a learning curve… at least for me. The steam wand is very thick and the 2 holes so spread apart, makes it kind of tricky to get the milk rolling in the jug. Also, I need to put the PID in it’s max temperature to get decent steaming power. But the flavor is on another level.
Hi Ruben, Thanks for the comment! With a little practice you'll find the right angle for the wand.
Marc
Pure heavy metal Marc 🤘
Living in a stainless world
Rock On!
Just bought a machine last week! Still great to see the video tough!
Hi Barz, Thanks for the comment!
Marc
Nice. My Mechanika V slim is on the list! Can't fault it really. A shot timer would be nice. Hey Mark I have managed to get quite a lot of surface scratches on my machine. Do you have any tips? Do I have to replace the drip tray and the cup holder?
Hi Hans, Thanks for sharing impressions your machine. You might be able to buff out minor scratches with a polishing compound. If trying that, do a small test in a less conspicuous area. Other advice - avoid cups with raw un-glazed bottoms. Those will scratch for sure!
Marc
Another great video Marc! Such beautiful machines. Question for you - if we were ever to return to the UK do any of these have the voltage flexibility to cope with US and UK or do you need to always buy the version made for the country? I think I know the answer but wanted to check...
Hey Rob, Thanks for the kind comment. You should be able to purchase a power adapter to operate the machine in the UK. I believe Italy uses the same power standard as the UK 220v/50. I've done video shoots in Italy using US power standard lighting with power adapters. I was often using 1,500 - 2,000 watts for lights which is a bit higher than what most prosumer level machines draw. If you need an adapter just be sure it's rated to handle the wattage of your machine.
Marc
Mark is a legend
Thanks a whole latte but maybe a bit over the top! :)
Marc
QUESTION:
Do you have a steam performance video for these or dual boilers like the single boiler video you guys did?
HI DL, There may be some steam performance info in the individual videos of each machine. Thing is it's difficult to steam performance test HX boiler machines on a level playing field. To get a specific brew temp they may be running at different temps/pressures in the boiler which yields slightly different steaming times. In general steaming performance is good across these machines. Even running different temps in their boilers I don't expect there'd be more than a few seconds difference in steaming the same amount of milk in each machine.
Hope that helps!
Marc
Mark hi!! I’ve LOVED my brand new profitect 500 PID. Do you have recommendations on customizing my Knobs and Lever???? I’d love some wood tones in my machine!
Hi Josh! The Pro 500 is an easy machine to love! Did the custom options on the Technika V wet your appetite? Stick around as we are constantly adding custom wood upgrades for other machines. No firm ETA on those for Pro 500 but shouldn't be too long.
Marc
Hi Mark
Thanks for doing all of these videos, it’s a great resource for us who don’t know stuff😉. I’m not able to be one of your customers because I’m on the other side of the planet to you but I have a question that I hope you might answer for me. I’m looking at buying a La Parvoni Cellini because it’s within my budget, I’m anxious about it because I’ve never tried a heat exchanger machine and from my research I think it is a copy of an earlier version of the Rocket Cellini. There’s no pid or easily accessible pressure control but I’m a newbie so will that matter. It will be an upgrade from my sunbeam Torino machine though.
If you have any advice I would be very pleased to hear it.
Thank you
Hi Laurie, You're welcome for the videos and thank you for the kind comments. If I have my history right the Cellini has been through a number of companies. I have not touched one in a long time but it's a good machine! So long as it's new or used and rebuilt and you have local resources you'll be fine. Be sure and pair it with a good grinder!
Marc
Hey,
I have never pulled espresso or steamed milk in my life, but I do enjoy a good coffee so I'm considering buying an espresso machine. Eyeing up the profitec pro 500 and wondering if it's worth jumping in straight to something like that or shouldn't I bother and get one of the more entry level machines? I don't want to really miss out on features/have to upgrade in the future. Cheers for the UK!
Hey Tom, So people who get into home espresso do often experience upgraditis. Entry-level machines can be limiting sSo if you are at all serious and will be doing milk-based drinks I recommend going with a machine with a heat-exchange boiler. HX machines can brew and steam milk simultaneously. The Pro 500 PID is an excellent HX boiler. If you don't mind a slightly longer work flow, single boiler machines are a good place to start. Single boilers cannot brew and steam simultaneously. The best value in premium entry-level single boiler machines ids the Gaggia Classic Pro: www.wholelattelove.com/products/gaggia-classic-pro
Marc
PRO: Really enjoy your Vids. so informative...
CON: usually have get a roll of paper towels to clean up the drool...
Lol, espresso porn often causes the drooling. Might need to start including a disclaimer with side effect warnings!
Marc
hi do you think that if manufacturers were to install a temperature probe in the group heads along with a display built into the frame that it would alleviate the issues that people have with HX machines that sometimes run too cool at the group head. a temperature display like this would allow you to flush water and get the right temp at the group head accurately. i know there are displays that can screw onto the group head but what if this function were to be built into the machine? i think that this is a simple and reasonable thing to ask from manufacturers
Hi p, Thanks for the question. Yes, aftermarket temp probes are available like this one: www.wholelattelove.com/products/e61-group-thermometer-kit
Bezzara machines with their BZ group do have temp probes in the group combined with heating elements in the group under PID temperature control.
Marc
love to see your videos
Hi adee26, Thanks for the comment!
Marc
Have been looking to buy one of these, but all of them have super long heatup times. Do you guys have recommendations for prosumer machines that can also heat up super fast, as I like to drink coffee during the day and don't want to wait 30 mins for it?
I currently use a Barista Pro and its ready to brew in the time I grind and prepare my portafilter, but I am looking to upgrade. Anything higher end that can do that, but also be able to steam milk faster than the Breville? It would also be helpful to have an approximate heatup time in the specs on the your site for each device.
Hi AS, Machines with E61 groups need about 30 minutes of warmup to be temperature stable. Machines like the Barista Pro use a thermoblock boiler which heats water on demand so they do produce hot water much faster. On the flip side temperatures are not nearly as accurate and heating of the portafilter is not a thing on that type of product. Thermoblocks also lack the steaming power as you mention. Prosumer level machines with boiler over group design heat up faster - usually needing 10 minutes of warmup. Machines like the Profitec Pro 300 have a boiler over group. It's a dual boiler machine so much better steaming power: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-300-dual-boiler-espresso-machine-open-box
Another option are Bezzera machines with the BZ group. The BZ group has electric heating elements inside the group so they're ready to go in about 10 minutes as well. I like the Bezzera BZ13: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bezzera-bz13-pm
Another option is to use a wifi appliance grade timer so you can have the machine power up in advance - even turn it on/off remotely. Timers work on any machine with a mechanical power switch.
Hope that helps!
Marc
Odd question, but can the Technika V be ordered with two round knobs instead of lever controls? I like the look of round knobs.
Hi AA, The round knobs require a different valve assembly which does not fit on the machine. Lever valves on the Technika V are the same as those on the ECM Synchronika which is a dual boiler version of the Technika. The Profitec Pro 700 is internally identical to the Synchronika but has the round knobs. ECM and Profitec machines are manufactured in the same facility in Milan, Italy so the Technika and Pro 700 share some DNA. Check out the Pro 700 here: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-700-dual-boiler-with-flow-control
Marc
Hey Marc,
Why didn’t you include the Pathfinder?
I was expecting that to be included because you had input on the build.
Here’s my journey…I am finally upgrading from my 15 year old Ranchilio Sylvia and I’m having such a hard time pulling the trigger on a machine. Started with the the Rocket Apartamento. Then looked at the BZ13. Then the Pro300. Then I just looked at the Pathfinder, but I’m nervous to buy it due to lack of reviews. But it’s seems like such a nice machine.
I’ve been watching espresso machine review for the last week. Help me man!!!
BTW. You’re reviews are the best
Hi Marc, I want to upgrade from the gaggia classic pro to either the profitec pro 500 or the 600, do you think the 600 is worth the difference in price? If so, why do you think so? Thank you and I'm happy you guys have the canadian website. Definitely it's going to be easier to buy from there.
Hi APL, Thanks for the question. Is it worth the price difference depends on how you will use the machine. With the 600 you'll have independent control of temps in the brew and steam boilers. That means you can change your steam boiler temp without affecting your brew temperature. Also with the 600 you'll have more steaming power as the boiler can run at 270F and make ~2 bar of pressure. Pressure in 500 is much lower - more like 1.3 bar depending on what you set boiler temp to but gets nowhere near the 2 bar of the 600. When you change boiler temp on the 500 you're changing the brew temp and steam power. With a dedicated brew boiler the 600 is a bit more accurate with brew temps. The 500 does very well in that department but if on for long periods without use you may need to do a cooling flush. Hope that helps1
Marc
Hey WLL, I want to plumb my ECM as part of my upcoming kitchen reno. Question: in your experience do people run water and drain lines up through countertop, or back through the wall/backsplash? (Preference is not to drill a hole in new quartz countertops, just not sure how good drainage will be if line goes back towards the wall. Thanks!
I would get a counter company to drill a hole. As an electrician, who often works on commercial espresso machines I get this done on kitchen islands to allow unsightly appliance cables to disappear from sight. Just make sure if you do go through the wall and you are in a colder climate, the wall is not an outside wall. Also, go for the filtration/ remineralization of your supply water. It makes a huge difference.
Hi AD, Thanks for the question. We usually go through the countertop. @starke6666 brings up some good points on cold walls, having a pro do the work and filtering your water! I understand reluctance to drill through countertop - that's a commitment. If going through the wall works for you just be sure the drain hose does not rise higher than the collection point under the drip tray. Hole through wall needs to be flush with countertop.
Marc
Hiya Marc, Great presentation as usual! Nice to see the ECM Tech Synchronika in your top 5. Also loved your video on the Bezzera coffee machine 🙂
Well Hey JL, Thanks for the comment!
Marc
Awesome video. I recently bought the E61 flow control set for my Profitec Pro 500. Only issue is, the pressure gauge never registers anything, but the flow control seems to work nicely. The pressure gauge on the actual machine goes up to the 8-9 bars when the flow control lever is off, but when I start to apply more flow, the pressure gauge on the machine drops, and the pressure gauge mounted on the group head is still not doing anything. Do you have any suggestions? Could it be that I didn't use any teflon tape when mounting the gauge?
Hi Philip, Thanks for the comment and question. If you were to put a blind filter basket (back flush disc) in your portafilter and operate the machine's pump with the flow control open do you get a pressure reading on the group gauge? If not, I'm guessing the gauge is defective. While not using teflon tape or washer when mounting the gauge could result in a leak I don't see how it would prevent the gauge from reading. If you purchased from us I'd reach out to our Tech Support staff for assistance here: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/contact-us
Marc
hello whole latte love...I have an ecm technika v profi that I purchased from you. my machine is older without pid. can I DIY upgrade my machine to pid?
Hi Paul, Thanks for your patronage. Well, anything is possible but it's not something we have done or have a procedure for. You'd need to get a temperature probe into the boiler, rework the electronics in the machine to provide power to a PID control board, mount PID display, control board, DC power supply and more. Following that a bunch of testing to figure out what the offset is - what temp in the boiler results in a particular brew water temp at the group.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thank you Marc...so what you are saying is sell mine and buy a new one with pid....hahaha ok . :-)
Hi Marc Again
Thanks for your quick response. You know it can be a great video to compare Profitec/ECM HX vs Profitec/ECM dual boilers in espresso quality (without milk or sugar). Let me explain, if you use high quality water (with epson salt and baking soda in distilled water), the HX machines use fresh water for the reservoir vs. DB which is boiling water when it heats up the machine and raises the PH. This will be a wonderful video to compare how high quality water in HX vs DB interacts when extracting espresso. I read in your response about Profitec will provide drain on DB machine to do descaling, now I'm moving to 600 or 700 Pro.
Hi FG, You are welcome. Thanks for suggesting the comparison. Not sure I follow the idea. Is your suggestion to compare "engineered' water from reservoir in HX machine vs. plumbed tap water used to feed a DB machine. Reading in, perhaps you're seeking to compare brew water quality difference under the often correct assumption that water in the brew boiler of a DB machine is held above boiling point? DB machines do have an offset such that the water within the boiler is hotter than the water contacting the coffee. This is due to the heat sink action of the E61 group lowering the temp as water travels from the boiler to the coffee. FYI it's similar in HX boilers with water within the HX of the boiler often near or above boiling temps. Let me consider your idea and perhaps you can clarify. In the meantime I do have this recent video which compares brewing with filtered water vs. pure zero TDS RO water (not a good thing to do!): ruclips.net/video/w6Fo9-EFrkc/видео.html
Marc
How does the crem hx compare here?
Hi Alex, Thanks for the question. Based on the legacy of their Expobar machines, the Crem HX offers a lot of bang for the buck. It's made in a more modern fashion with more plastics used but at its heart has what it takes for excellent results. We appreciate it's massive drip tray, shot mirror, upward facing UI and it's commercial rated. Learn more in our full video on the Crem HX here: ruclips.net/video/Fkic3LfVyYk/видео.html
Marc
One of the major reasons I'm looking to upgrade my espresso machine (from the Breville single boiler) is because it's SO freakin' loud. I feel nervous about waking people in the morning. Obviously, a rotary pump would solve this, but I've also heard that the Profitec 500 is pretty quite for a vibratory pump. What would you or anyone here's experience be and opinion be on that Profitec 500 and the noise level?
Hi Leela, The Pro 500 is a relatively quiet vibration pump machine and produces less noise than the Breville. As you mentioned, a rotary pump is even quieter.
Marc
Hi Marc,
After reviewed E61 on this category in person, I prefer by far Profitec and ECM company over to others brands (quality and attention to details in another level). I choose Profitec 500 Pro (PID) because the espresso quality is the same as 600 PRO but... this is the BIG BUT prefer 500 Pro because can realize descale (HX) on my home without risk my machine every time that deliver to authorize dealer (for me is a game changer). 500 Pro with flow control and PID, is the perfect machine for espresso lovers (without milk and sugar). The only improvement that will be perfect on 500 PRO is put the same PID screen on the same location that 600 and 700 Pro, don't worry still amazing good looking machine.
Hi FG, Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Profitec, and ECM especially, are a cut above most of the competition as far as quality and finishing details. Pro 500 is a fine machine. It's true it's easier for end users to descale machines with HX boilers. That said, I had a long talk with Michael Hauck CEO of Profitec/ECM about descaling his dual boiler machines at the recent SCA show in Boston. Recently he's added brew boiler drains to the Pro 600, Pro 700 and Synchronika. With a drain it's not as risky for end users to descale these machines as it's easier to get the descaler out of the boiler without running it through the hydraulics of the machine and risk loosened scale particles plugging things up. The best course for those with dual boiler machines is to use a water quality which does not cause scale deposits in the first place. For that, we recommend filtering water with BWT Water and More products. They use ion-exchange to replace much of the scale causing calcium in water with magnesium. You get water with a mineral level needed for flavor and prevention of over-extraction that will not cause scale when used as directed. So long as your tap water is reasonable - like not mineral laden well water or similar BWT prevents scale. Learn more about BWT options here: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/bwt
Marc
Mark!! We need a machine for camp!!! Why is it so hard to chose🤷♀️
Hey Lise, A lot of good choices! Depends on what's important to you.
For camp...
I love the Pro 500 in this video.
But, if for "camp" perhaps a machine that heats up quickly and is a good value? The Bezzera BZ13 (not in this video) is an HX boiler machine which ticks those boxes. It's available in a manual or dosing version, 4 body colors and with rosewood trim. Here's my review video of the BZ13: ruclips.net/video/DMbCgF1554E/видео.html
See colors, styles and pricing here: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/semi-automatic-espresso-machines?_=pf&pf_v_brand=Bezzera&pf_t_temperature_regulation=temperature_control%3APID
Hope that helps!
Marc
Profitec 700 good for a pop up shop ?
Hi JM, Thanks for the question. While it's technically not a commercially machine with NSF rating it could be used for lower volume service.
I too enjoy speed ;)
What about your Beloved crem one hx?
Hi Yosi, I do love the Crem One HX! It's an excellent value similar to its Expobar predecessors. If I'm not mistaken it's the lowest priced plumbable machine. A departure from classic machine design but packs a ton of features for the $$. If we had 6 slots in this video instead of 5 it likely would be in the mix.
Marc
Hi Marc. There is talk online about how HXs work better when the PID's probe is located in the grouphead, given the success of the Lelit MaraX and some people modding their HXs. Any reason why not other brands are incorporing this way of monitoring temperature? Other than the steam pressure varying depending on where the grouphead is sitting temp-wise.
Edit: by work better I mean no need to do cooling/needing very short flushes.
Hi MrM, Thanks for the question. I have not used the MaraX so cannot comment on it's setup. But, I can add a couple of thoughts. Are you familiar with Bezzera's BZ group machines? I know it's different than what the Mara is doing but their BZ groups do have PID controlled heating elements within the group. Temperature sensing in the group and a heating element there as well. The result is very fast heat up times and more consistent brew temps. I have done extensive Scace testing of HX boiler machines with PID (temp probe in boiler) and was amazed at the brew temp consistency. Based on my testing I no longer flush most HX PID machines prior to extraction unless they've been sitting on and idle for extended times. Coming from pressurestat controlled HX machines of the past which almost always needed flushing it was amazing. One key to the consistency in HX PID machines is proper sizing of the flow restrictor in the E61 thermosiphon loop. As the E61 group head works as a heat sink for the boiler ambient temps are important. Those running a machine in a cold room will have very different brew temps than those running in a warmer room. It's an extreme example, but last year I did some Scace testing of brew temps after holding a wet room temperature rag on an E61 group for 10 seconds prior to running the test. The wet rag dropped Scace temps by ~10F.
Marc
Hi, I believe those comments you read from where the probe should be or where they are more effective, are technicalities that won’t get anyone anywhere. The truth is, all these PID machines are constantly tested and reviewed every day on their factories so we get consistent quality as Marc has previously have tested with a scace and demonstrated their consistency.
@@Wholelattelovepage i recall something about those electronically controlled groups. They do seem like a neat idea, victoria Arduino have been doing that for some years. Just for the sake of curiosity, do they allow for some kind of flow control?
The calibration of flow restriction in the loop seems like an awesome idea to solve the need of flushes.
Thanks for entertaining this silly aficionado Marc!
Any news on the release date of the Profitec Pro 400 ?
Hi IMQ, No dates yet but you can be sure I'll have an in-depth video on the machine once it arrives and I get to spend some time with it!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks for the reply Marc, have a nice day
Many of these machines are not available in Australia. I was gonna pick up a Lelit Mara X, can anyone enlighten me why is it not in the top 5 list?
Because Whole Latte Love doesn't sell it. This is a biased promo video, not a genuine review/comparison imo.
@@mattgrigsby1796 yep, im an aussie Mara X owner and i cant tell you how much i love this machine. WLL are too biased with their limited range for hardware recommendations. beware. it's a shame that they can cause such harm by not enlightening possible buyers to the fact that the Mara is lightyears in front for the money. damn close to unsubbing actually
Hi Marc, I enjoy watching your u
tube’s, very informative. I am considering an HX machine, either the Rocket Giotto R or ECM Technika V Profi PID. I was originally going to buy the Profitec Pro 700 v2 but I’m worried about descaling, as you recommend getting this done professionally. I’m assuming if I buy one of the HX machines, the descaling can be done by me at home? Of the HX machines, I want a rotary pump as I might decide to plumb it down the track…what are your thoughts? Should I buy the ECM and option flow control? The price is similar to the Giotto but better quality? Or should I not worry about descaling and buy the Profitec Pro 700 v2 with flow control?
Hi Mark, Thanks for the kind comment and questions.
Descaling of HX machines can be done at home. Here's a video detailing the basics: ruclips.net/video/yEGfyJkWSqU/видео.html
HX boiler rotary pump options are the Rocket (Giotto or Mozzafiatto) Cronometro R or the ECM Technika V Profi. All are very good machines. I give an edge to the ECM in overall build and finish quality while the Rockets put a bit more into the branding.
Flow control does open up a lot of possibilities. I recommend going flow control if you see espresso as a hobby and would enjoy working with higher-end coffees or how you can make average coffees better.
With a Pro 700 and other dual boilers you can avoid descaling by using properly filtered water. I recommend BWT (Best Water Treatment) filter options. They use patented calcium to magnesium ion-exchange to eliminate scaling potential when used as directed as long as your tap water does not have edge case issues. Their options include an in-line plumbed option: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-bestmax-premium-filter-package-w-besthead-flex
Penguin Pitcher: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-penguin-2-7-l-water-pitcher
and in-reservoir pad filters: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-bestsave-s-anti-scale-filter
If you do not go with flow control both the Technika and the Pro 700 can do line pressure pre-infusion when plumbed. The Rocket machines do not. For line pressure pre-infusion you will want a pressure regulator on the plumb line - that's part of of the BWT in-line filter linked above. Hope that helps!
Marc
What about Lelit Mara X? That definitely should fall under top 5 HX machines of 2021?
WLL has pretty notoriously had a grunge against lelit for a while now for some reason . see their bianca v pro 700 video. it's too bad because they're all great machines and more options, and being transparent about those options, is only to their benefit.
Bezzera? BZ16DE? :)
I think bz16 (PM / DE) is underrated, the pm version is similar to bz10, come with larger boiler, and rotary pump instead. maybe the DE version is the next level from these list on video
Hello Marc. Appreciate you constantly make top quality videos. I recently did an upgrade from breville barista express to profitec 500. Grinder is compak k3 touch. Tried many grind settings to dial in the new machine. I found have to fill 21-22g coffee in double basket to have 9 bar pressure in group head. Anything less than 20g, pressure will stay less than 8 bars and will leave big gap between the top of puck and shower screen. And puck quite muddy. Do you think there’s anything wrong with my grinder or espresso machine or basket filter? Thank you.
Hey Yue, Thanks for the kind comment and question. As you have done, you can always slow down an extraction and increase the pressure by using more ground coffee. But, you can do the same by using a finer grind. Changing grind size is preferred to up-dosing. Your grinder should be capable of grinding fine enough that you do not have to up-dose if you don't want to. Also, don't get to wrapped up in getting to 9 bar brew pressure. Fantastic espresso does not require 9 bar of pressure. Soupy pucks can be caused by excess headroom, dirty shower screen and/or group components. Backflush your machine with plain water on a regular basis maybe every 10-20 brew cycles and backflush with Cafiza every 100 or so brew cycles.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thank you Marc for the reply and guid. I’ve tried finer grind setting. With the same amount of coffee bean, it will leave more headroom above the puck and make it even more soupy. You are absolutely right that I should shift my focus on the espresso drink. I’ve used it for almost 3 weeks. Absolutely love it. Thanks again for your videos to let me made a good purchase.
Wow! Cant believe im back again at WLL. 6 years ago i started with the delonghi $20 espresso maker then got an expobar sold it after 3 years started roasted my own beans, got an apartamento replaced it with r58 after 1 month then sold the r58 after 2 years and now here i am.. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Hey R, Well thanks for coming back! Sounds like you have a classic case of upgraditis!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage it is pretty serious condition marc.haha I hope you and tod and the rest of the team are doing well!
Hahahaha! you need help 😂
Couldn't agree more 🤣🤣🤣, my plan is to get a moke pot and use french press fore steamed milk. I i get the itch after that im definitely getting another machine lol
Thanks for the nice video, Marc ! It was asked before … but could you comment again on temperature stability of flow control on heat exchangers. As fast as I understand the flow of water through the heat exchanger determines its temperature for brewing. How much does flow control change that balance in your experience ? Did you do some testing on this ?
Hi FK, I have not done specific testing of brew water temps at different flow rates. I suspect that flow rates have a higher impact on extraction qualities than a few degrees of temp change. I do know the majority of PID HX machines have very good temperature stability. It's actually remarkable compared to 5+ years ago when most all HX machines were controlled by pressurestats. In those, a lot of flushing to remove over heated brew water. On most HX PID machines flushing isn't required unless machine has been sitting on and idle for long periods.
Marc
Me watching this video after pulling the trigger 2 weeks ago on the Bezzera Magica w/ PID... I got to say that I really like it. I kinda regretted it just now when seeing the TechniKa V, but is significantly more expensive, so I am sticking to my Bezzera! BTW, Marc's video on the Magica made me pull the trigger... Marc, don't be so tricky!
I knew this video was not for me when I saw the budget pick was $1995 lol. Gonna stick to my Dedica I think 😭
Hi NS, There are different levels!
Marc
Bezzera BZ13 all the way!
Hey Mark... I JUST pulled the trigger on a HX machine (being delivered this Thurs 12/9). Unfortunately, the Crem didn't make your list. :-( I'd love to hear your feedback and if I happened to get the wrong machine? *sobs* LOL
Hey Chris, Don't cry the Crem One HX is a good machine. It's a more modern take on the Italian classic at a great price for a PID, plumbable machine and it's got the shot mirror. Just too many machines and only 5 slots. If it makes you feel better we've been using a Crem One Duo-V as the daily driver for the studio crew for a few months now and like it.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks Marc for the reply. No crying here... it's already purchased! LOL However, there's a HUGE difference between the HX and Duo-V. ;-) I had an Alex Duetto VI a good few years back until the wife said it took up too much counter space. Moved to a Breville Oracle. Now coming back to a REAL machine. I can't wait!