How the Bible Explains Suffering
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- Опубликовано: 13 май 2015
- Bart D. Ehrman was invited to speak at the University of California Berkeley Graduate Council Lectures on September 8, 2008, titling his lecture, "Problem and Human Solutions: How the Bible Explains Suffering with Bart Ehrman " [Show ID: 14693]. The presentation was part of the Foerster Lectures on the Immortality of the Soul. In 1928, Miss Edith Zweybruck established the Foerster Lectureship. She requested that lectures be given "on the immortality of the soul or other kindred subjects. Such lecture is not to form a part of the regular college course and shall be delivered by some person especially qualified therefore and especially appointed for the purpose."
Susanna Elm, Professor in the Department of History, Director of the Foerster Lectureship Committee, introduces Bart at the onset of the lecture.
Program discussed on Bart Ehrman's Foundation Blog: ehrmanblog.org/?p=8781
Bart D. Ehrman is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He came to UNC in 1988, after four years of teaching at Rutgers University. At UNC he has served as both the Director of Graduate Studies and the Chair of the Department of Religious Studies. A graduate of Wheaton College (Illinois), Professor Ehrman received both his Masters of Divinity and Ph.D. from Princeton Theological Seminary, where his 1985 doctoral dissertation was awarded magna cum laude.
Copyright © Bart D. Ehrman and University of California Television (UCTV). All Rights Reserved. Unauthorized use, re-posting and/or duplication of this media without express and written permission from Bart D. Ehrman and University of California Television (UCTV) is strictly prohibited.
This guy is a solid scholar and always informative. I really enjoy him.
"Stuff happens", may be the greatest quote on the nature of fate I've ever heard.
Truth seekers will have an open mind to his lecture. If one find it hard to listen to him, take time to ask honestly why you feel that way...and i hope your conscience will give you honest answers.
We had a great little sign posted in our workplace.
"The floggings will continue until morale improves."
Bart D. Ehrman is one non-believer that has had so much influence on my faith because of his dispassionate approach to questions of religion. As one who had spent over 3 decades of my life knowing God and spending the last few months unknowing God, I sought an unbiased and objective knowledge. Bart gives that. I also found Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins unreadable for the same reason Bart gave, and the fact that Bart thinks that way of them reinforces my sentiments of him that he is not just out there to discredit religion or God. He's out there to seek and share the truth, and I have found no reason so far to disagree with him.
The last person questioning, really hit the nail on the head and I'm glad B Erhman answered the way he did. We can do something about suffering even though we don't know why.
I love the conclusion - eat and drink and be merry... Amen 🙏🏻
Which, ironically, is the essence of one of the books of the Bible (Ecclessiastes); supposedly written by the wisest man who ever lived.
Great job for posting new video of your talk, keep up the momentum of publishing new talks on RUclips.
Bart, your book on suffering 10 years ago was the first book I read that started me to question my faith, I also have read Jesus Interrupted. Since then, I have read many other books by authors Dan Barker, Seth Andrews, Guy Harrison and David Silverman. Enjoyed this lecture along with a few others here on youtube. Keep up the good work.
As a child I found the devil and demons to be what made me question God. If God is all loving shouldn't he (and all of us) live and forgive demons? Why can't demons ever be redeemed? Today I'm not sure I can follow a God who doesn't allow lgbtq+ people to exist but similarly if God is all knowing and all loving how can he forsake any human being?
Adam and Eve was told not eating the tree of Good and evil are there surely die they had a choice of walking away from the tree not eating there are eating it they made the choice God puts things in this world for us but we make our choice how we're going to to go through the stuff we go through we do it his way we don't have suffer you are way we suffer double the Jewish people did what God told to do they would have been in there Canaan but they chose not to we have choice too and our choices can make a difference not for us alone but a difference for what people around us has the Bible would say one man sin cause many to suffer Cobra 19 is a good example we can pass it on to other people so what you do benefit people are cause people to suffer if God would intervene every time we do it wrong all right he shouldn't give us a free will one day we should leave this world and when we do we will go to the kingdom of heaven where there's no more tears in the bottle and no more pain
How my conversations with Christians typically go:
Me "Why is there suffering?"
Them "Because God gave us free will."
Me "Will there be suffering in heaven?"
Them "No of course not."
Me "Will there be free will in heaven?"
Them _blank stare_
Ian G You're a good example of "claiming to be wise they became fools" and "Wise in their own eyes." In this world, free will comes with the 'sinful nature.' In heaven and in the world to come, free will comes without a 'sinful nature.'
hO Pistos so why is there suffering at all?
Read my comment I made above on this video.
hO Pistos no thanks. If you can't bother responding to me directly I'm not going to waste my time looking. Copy and paste it here or something.
Why would I bother? I'm more lazier than you are.
I always look forward to your uploads. Thank you for educating us all (relatively) free of cost!
Excellent Bart Ehrman - thank you!
Excellent lecture. I always look forward to your posts.
That so inspiring to find a likeminded person. Thank you for all of your work.
Christianity leads to a belief that God cares more about righteousness and his own glory than anything . Why create people or animals in the first place if you know they will have to suffer especially for eternity.
I rate this as one of the most stimulating, instructive, engaging and challenging lectures that I have ever heard. One of the best things about it (true of other lectures by Prof. Ehrman )is that you don't need to be a biblical expert or have knowledge ofJudeo-Christian theology (or Christology or eschatology) in order to follow it and enjoy it.
Great job as usual, I love your books and appreciate your work, good vibes to you
1st-Class research and persuasive analysis plus clear presentation of material make Bart the world's finest expert in his field.
.
I am secure enough in my person to unashamedly state that I love this man and cannot get enough of his lectures. His videos are criminally under-viewed.
I am not a Christian, never were. Yet I find Dr. Ehrman's videos very interesting. Keep up the good work.
Jake LaBete I’ve not believed in Christianity either... Around the age of 12”I start to think I’m an atheist... Later my beliefs change a bit...
The lecture was wonderful. However, the Q&A afterward was hilarious. 😆 Prof. Ehrman has surely heard some interesting stuff from the audience, more than once.
SUFFERING HAPPENS BECAUSE LIFE HAPPENS. People are part of nature as with all other animals we live and die and experience joy and suffering. it is called life.
I'm making me some popcorn for this one. Bart D. Ehrman is one of my favorite authors when it comes to books. I recommend 'The Case For Faith' by Lee Strobel and the books he mentions in the first issue he battles for those who are battling the issue of a loving God in the face of why there's so much suffering in this world.
hO Pistos Lee Strobel is completely incompetent as an author. The first book of his I read was "The Case For Christ" and for someone who claimed to be a skeptic, he absolutely lapped up all the theological answers without asking some very obvious follow-up questions. He also has no idea about the science that he tries to use in his arguments. If you want to read a good book by an intelligent person, read something by Francis Collins.
Personally, I like my own comment I made on 'personal view' on why there's suffering. Majority of "Christains" don't comprehend the Bible like I do and as for those who don't even bother studying the Bible have nothing on me.
The fact is that God knew that one of his creations would become "the Satan" before he created him and he knew Eve and Adam would disobey his commandment to not partake of the forbidden fruit. The reason, according to my understanding of the Bible and logical thinking, there's so much suffering when it comes to diseases, virii, natural disasters, and birth defections is because humanity didn't want the creation God created, which had no such suffering, by disobeying him and therefore they entered a creation that became as corrupt as they had become by their disobedience and therefore that's now the creation we have to live with God gave an 'utopia creation' but the first humans, Eve and Adam, rejected it and therefore entered into a 'suffering creation.' God will, however, bright back the 'utopia creation' for those who are chosen to enter it by means of Christ Jesus. I don't see what's the problem here. We have done plenty of evil or wickedness or "bad things" in our life time to testify that we belong to this 'suffering creation.' The real problem is that majority of Christianity, as well as the rest of the world who encounter Christianity, doesn't understand God when it comes to being 'loving,' 'good,' and 'just.' God isn't a doormat nor some fuzzy teddy bear nor even a genie.
You miss a much larger point that you brought up. If Adam had no knowledge of right and wrong before he ate the fruit (which is what genesis says) god has only himself to blame. He made an imperfect creature and got mad when he didn't so what he wanted and then spent the next few thousand years abusing humanity. If he put the tree there in the first place without providing the knowledge of right and wrong, and he knew what would happen, that is pure evil. That is like a parent beating their toddler for eating the candy that the parent put in front of them. That is despicable and wicked. Luckily this abusive parent probably doesn't exist.
Additionally, if you want to worship an asshole who will hold something over your head done thousands of years ago that you had no part in knock yourself out. No good, forgiving being would do such a thing.
Lee Strobel uses the bible to confirm it's own truth!
investmentbkr I really hope you are being sarcastic (and I think you are). If not, learn what a circular argument is.
One more book I have to read now
What did Whisenant make of the verse that said "some standing here will not taste death . . . "?
The answer? _42_ for sure!
I too while being a bible reader cannot fathom the reasons why so much suffering is allowed to occur and more often than not it happens to good people.Inconceivable suffering occurred during WWII with outrageous inhumanity and torture running rampant across the whole of Europe.In Russia alone almost 30 million were killed; shot , starved to death, beaten to death, worked to death as slaves, killed in medical experiments, tortured to death, burned to death, buried alive, shot for sport and the list goes on.I simply fail to comprehend why this was allowed.WHY?? I'm told it was God's will and that may be, but I cannot grasp it.Surely I am not alone in this quandry.Am I??????
Add the trans atlantic slave trade a the colonization of the continent of africa and the near genocide of the native americans to this list...the list goes on and on and on and on...
sallymaggiespotty I agree, why would God allow such atrocities?
@@truckerdad85 yep. It goes on and on. They just keep coming up with new reasons why. The latest is the cruelest. It's OUR fault god kills our children with cancers. In the 80's i thought I believed, then i read the old testament, the one Christians cherry pick. They don't view suffering the same. When my oldest died in car crash, had a pastor tell me, "maybe god used his death to bring you back to him". I told him he had 2 ways to leave my home, walking out or flying through my front bay window. He chose walking. How people worship a "god" who kills our children is beyond me. ASSHOLE. HE DOESN'T EXIST.
Why do people believe that everything that happens is "God's will?"
Because we are wired to look for purpose behind random events. It is believed to be an evolutionary trait that has actually helped us survive. For example, in prehistoric times, if you attributed the seemingly random rustling of leaves in the undergrowth to a purposeful cause -- e.g. a tiger that's stalking you -- then you're more likely to take action and survive than someone who attributes it to some random breeze.
And even if we don't need that survival instinct much any more, it's still wired into our brain in the same way that we see often see animal shapes in clouds.
In short, we're wired to seek purpose behind the things that happen to us.
The God-thing is exactly the problem.
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Apparently so.
Loving it!
One of the better scholars perhaps?
Dr Ehrman, thank you once again for a very informative lecture.
why did he leave out the last passage of ecclesiastes where it says that his advice is to obey God's commands which is everyones duty and that God will judge us for everything we do? I love Bart Ehrman tho, could listen for hours.
the real question that concerns me is how to be an intstrument of relieving suffering.
A laudable goal, for sure, even if I disagree with your diagnosis.
Fascinating historicisation of religious ideologies and the double-edged sword of Christian concepts.
Perhaps "suffering" is really just the view of how we see it, each with their own perspective. "The Story of the Taoist Farmer".
That one's a classic.
Margaret P. Clarke, who knows what is good or bad?
There are people good at turning a blind eye until suffering arrives on their doorsteps, but the perspective is the same in everyone: Suffering is cruelty.
Suffering as in people being predisposed to experience pains they can't control. Many disabled people only exist in complete mind numbing pain. No way to justify this.
I what Language Did Moses write the Ten Commandments
Which ones? Moses wrote everything God instructed (more than just 10 commandments) in Ex 24:4. Then in Ex 24:12, God says he wrote the law on stone, so God wrote that set. Then that is the set Moses broke. And then the law was given again later in Deut. And that's all according to the Bible which in and of itself was shaky testimony from numerous sources. So really, Moses didn't write the ten commandments but the writers wrote that he wrote them.
I think that suffering is easily explained by evolution, biological and inorganic.
Commenters keep starting by writing "But he's agnostic!" Well yes. I'd much rather hear from a neutral scholarly standpoint, thank you.
And he wasn't always agnostic, which must make it even more cutting. I mean, he was like them and then he saw the light. Ouch!
rationalguy commentators?
I once had someone tell me that natural disasters were because the sins of man cause the earth itself to writhe in grief and pain. There ya go!😳😳 It's our fault, as usual!
Coming in late to the conversation, I've been won over to the recent belief, though science, that none of us have 'free will'. All we have is 'free won't'. Though it's still being debated in neuroscience circles, the data is pretty revealing.
And what it says is that your non-conscious brain makes a decision about what you are going to do before you become conscious of it. In other words, all of your thoughts and actions are 'pre thought' in some other part of your brain and only then, milliseconds later, become thoughts in your brain. What you can do with those thoughts, ideas, whatever is where free won't comes in. You can say no to whatever thought comes into your mind.
You are allowed to veto it. Your thoughts and urges are still your own, they're coming from your brain, but they're coming from a part of your brain you're not able to access.
Your choices are made before you're aware of making them. But you can always (unless it's a reflex) veto the thoughts and urges that come into your brain. Unless, of course, you suffer certain brain injuries and diseases which obliterate this veto ability.
But no, your brain determines your actions before you're even aware you're going to make them. But you have free won't, and can veto them at any time.
Distinctions without difference. Free will, or not, we still must act like we have free will.
The deeper issue is that the Christian (and Jewish and Muslim) God is said to have created the universe and everything in it. This means he created people too. It also means that no person had the choice of whether to be created or not. Then this "God" who created everything and therefore is ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that happens in it, tries to put the responsibility on us, his creations. The "gift" of life doesn't feel like a gift, to a six-month-old baby who's been raped and murdered.
1. We didn't choose to be here
2. God forces freewill on us
3. If we don't enslave ourselves to this God, we spend eternity in a Hell that God also created.
It's like Dr. Frankenstein trying to blame all the death and destruction on the monster.
"Do what I say or die in a burning hell for all eternity" is no way to treat someone you love.
Is that a masonic floor??
stops at 58:05
Great lecture.
There is suffering because Adam and Eve wanted to know what bad information would do. There is suffering today because people still want to live a lie.
Jungle Jargon did you listen to the lecture?
rungavagairun Do you have something to tell me?
Jungle Jargon did you listen to the lecture in the video?
rungavagairun OK, you have nothing to tell me.
Professor, you're an amazing scholar...I really learn and appreciate your techings. Would like to assist to one of your lecture or conference here in NYC. Thanks
47:38 Morality comes from reason.
There it is. It's actually pretty simple.
But there doesn't seem to be an abundance of reason in heaven!
It is probably a result of brain structures such as the amygdalae, and as such not based on reason, but on emotion to a large extent.
@@YamiAi yes. morality is a project of creating a logical structure, often rule-oriented, to account for natural human emotional responses to various phenomena.
Matt Dillahunty's explanation of how objective morality can come from a secular worldview is very good.
I started my coments with what apears to be the last comment.
So the ppl who are starving in 3 world country what they have to change not to be punish.....
Prof. Ehrman, was there a time when you get scared of your discovery that led you to disbelief? How did you get with it? Cause I'm getting scared.
right now in the world we are suffering from some things because we have exercised our free will to abuse the earth. There are people have used free will to abuse all kinds of power. There are miracles and would be a multitude of them if we would use our free will to choose love which is a way to extend
What have I done to deserve these piles. They are the size of grapes !
The real question is why have theologians been twisting themselves into pretzels to justify beliefs that are clearly contradicted by the facts.
The money is too good.
Not just the money. Don't forget about power, also. ;-)
God sure believes in 'TOUGH LOVE" don'tcha think? It's with great ferver that I thank god I'm an atheist!! !
Natural evolution seems to explain why there is suffering.
there is goal. to watch all buster keaton films over and over again
Yep; think of suffering at a high level as the growing pains of humanity overall.
The "Where do you get your morality?" questioner has the same ignorant tone as the "What if you're wrong?" questioner of Richard Dawkins. They sound like young, wide-eyed people (or is it the same person?) indoctrinated into their WASP world view from the time their were on mother's knee.
Does RUclips show atheist-content ads to Christians when they watch faith-based videos? One would think those would be separate categories or target audiences.
I've noticed the effect. I'm always getting religious ads when I watch content that's critical of religion! Even from the religion I abandoned.
They would if atheists paid for their adds to be shown on those videos.
Tsunamis happen because of weather processes.
Tsunamis are caused by geological phenomena -- earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, landslides, etc. -- not the weather.
Je ne comprends pas l'anglais, mais je partage quand même, car je suis convaincu qu'il est en train de dire des vérités sur la bible ou plutôt "des vérités dans la bible"
DIEU est notre soutien et jésus christ notre sauveur !!! On a tous un seul DIEU ! il nous guide nous conseille nous parle nous écoute ................................. A chacun sa croix ! a chacun son chemin..
***** Merci.
Christian God [or is it only the Southern Baptist{SB} God?] created the universe, but could not create a non-perishing paper that his few chosen Hebrews and/or Judeans would write his word on?
Yes, the NT almost totally perished and the SBG hadn't noticed it-- judging by the fact that SBG had not have it restored word for word exact.
So, some Judeans and later Gentiles wrote their own Bibles; for none of these scribes ever claimed that THEIR WORD came from a Christian God or the Baptist one.
=====
Suppose the Christian God [CG or SBG] exists? It still makes not a whiff of a diff to us; for we can gather knowledge of only what is real [and never what 'is' unreal] only by using our God or Nature given five senses and then thinking about what our five sense discover for us.
Believers in gods, satans, good/bad spirits, etc., chuck away their five senses and their thinking about what these senses tell them; thus, pose great dangers to survival of the human race and its well-being.
So, if CG exists and he made our five senses and believers disregard these five senses when it comes to evaluating the Bible, then they disobey God!
The first two questions though...some attitude may be..just me ? Okay
If Apocalypticist don't believe in a living soul apart from the body... does that mean that the soul is like the name tag on the big toe of a corps?
We need to saFely wipe out mosquitoes and not kill others things
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
51.20
It is quite admirable what bart has done throughout his life to go into the greatest of depths and research to study and understand these things that most theologians still argue with today..... I commend him for his work and I am extremely grateful.......Yet it saddens me that there was a need for him or anyone to do so in the first place......It would be like me dedicating my entire life to the mythology of Santa Claus so that once I have accrued what could be Considered sufficient evidence....... I would have the Laborious task of spending the other half of my life telling everyone although there are records of sorts...... in general it’s all just a crock of shit........
I am a student of A course in Miracles. Try it. Or not.
So, if your society has no covenant with God, then he would have no occasion to cause you suffering
I always thought the account of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and bad from Genesis and the account of Job was the definitive basis for why God permits suffering.
Eating from the tree of knowledge of good and bad was a symbol signifying the lifting of instinct from our species and the beginning of the education of mankind in cause and effect.... "good and bad".
Job 1 claims a power dynamic also being played out. A challenge from Lucifer to god directly.
Do people serve or love god (god is love?) only because of what god gives them? Or would people actually love god as an entity?
I believe the terms of the bible are clear and the truth of the reason for suffering is actually all the reasons mentioned in the bible. A personal test to answer the question... do we really love god even if we suffer and he is not intervening? An issue of soveriegnty challenged by Lucifer... Lucifer wants to become a god and ecourages humans to seek divinity. Our period of time now is to allow Lucifer to try to prove his point. And so Lucifer is also responsible for suffering... but he too has limitations to the came and cannot take our free will, which is guarded in the game because we must learn for ourselves good and bad.
Suffering must happen because for true freedom to be bestowed upon humanity we must be able to fuck it up enough, like the children we are, till we all learn. We die so young so we couldn't destroy the earth before the prescibed time and the Kingdom is when the game is almost over and the human race has had long enough. He put forward his firstborn angel Michael, the prince of Israel, to become king and embodied him as a jewish man, then promoted him when he had finally known what human suffering was all about.
When he comes back the kingdom comes to earth and the resurrection makes pain and suffering just a useful memory... through which we go througha 1000yr reign according to Revelation... then I guess wave two of suffering then finally an earth without the serpent / dragon... aka Lucifer?
Not saying it's true but it all seemed to link together as a story to me. I don't see why there must be only one reason why suffering must persist for now.
Bette F
"Can any intelligent person suggest that intelligence is the cause of immense suffering?"
Yes and no. Intelligence without wisdom can cause immense suffering. Wisdom can bring great joy even without intelligence. Having both brings the greatest expression of appreciation.
Intelligence increases potential, but it is full understanding of cause and effect which enables the capacity for conceptualization to manifest action specific and correct for particular aims and goals.
"Be careful what you wish for" is a lesson perhaps only experience can teach the human race.
You are on a path to wisdom for sure. Stay connected to the universe and let your instincts be guided by the creator and your heart will guide you to the fullness of your potential. It is certainly a joy for me to observe another fellow human who is finding such inspired harmony.
evidenceonlythanx
You are obsessed with torture. Have you ever perhaps considered that ascendancy above pain is ascendancy above flesh as much as any other illusion of the brain?
You seem to be reasoning from the assumed position that pain is bad. I have suffered much... but I would not trade that pain for the lessons it has taught me.
evidenceonlythanx
"You seem to equate pain, torture and suffering with education."
You mistake equating with having an understanding of the role it plays in helping people appreciate their boundaries.
evidenceonlythanx
"So you actually support the concept that torture is the best way to solve problems,"
No that isn't what I said. But torture is just pain inflicted intentionally by someone and pain is something that is essential for an entity with free will to experience when learning their boundary. Get that? *essential*.
Sure it would be lovely if everyone learnt right away just by being told. But they don't so... whose fault is that?
"That is a very sad outcome, and you should have a good look at yourself.
That kind of base-line mentality is APPALLING."
I have taken a long hard look at myself and realised how retarded and reactionary your hyper criticism of pain is and how shallow your assumption that "pain = bad" is.
Your rhetoric is a symptom of your sickness. You incapacity to see beyond your own experience and break things down to their fundamentals. Your ego demands that you feel no pain, yet you are too retarded or self obsessed to understand what a world with no pain is like.
evidenceonlythanx
lol
Have you ever seen what someone who feels no pain looks like? Do you even understand how difficult it is for them to live?
Clearly you do not. Your ignorance is laughably on display.
Perhaps you should go take a look moron. They do exist.
I notice that all you have is insults when your invalid premises are exposed. Thanks for publicly demonstrating that your case is worthless.
music reminds me of Steve Reich...
Damn right. Prophet Ehrman! This very generation WILL!
Notice the narrative, "And after 6 DAYS, HE TOOK THEM UP THE MOUNTAIN!"
We now stand on the precipice of the Sabbath milennium of history. At the end of which the dead, lost are raised, and Satan will rally them against the Holy City come down from heaven, adorned for her Husbandman. Upon that attempted attack from those outside, they will be judged by the Lamb, before the eyes of the redeemed, standing on the walls.. After which the Blessed shall be priveleged to witness the Creator make a New Heaven and a New Earth. Where everlasting righteousness shall dwell and sin and death are forever destroyed! Amen
Practically every generation has had some people who have believed the same thing as you for as long as Revelations has existed. Its "prophecy" is so vague that it can be interpreted to fit virtually any criteria (so long as you ignore the bits that don't fit your apocalyptic vision). It hasn't happened for any of them. It didn't happen in 0 AD, it didn't happen in 1000 AD, it didn't happen in 2000 AD, and it didn't happen in any of the years in between. There have been "plagues, famines, earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars" (To paraphrase Revelations) for all of recorded history. So what makes you think that our time is in any way different?
Um...You got it wrong, the end is not coming Tuesday afternoon, but Wednesday morning.
Well bart i don't see that a planet with earth quakes volcano and what ever else you say is a problem of suffering . But rather more like a living planet . I also don't know why you think when something happens to us you believe it is suffering in the e sense we don;t like what happens don't make it suffering i was never placed here to suffer but rather experience and receive compassion from an all mighty God not to suffer but to live suffering to me is not knowing the greater things of life suffering is not suffering its proof we are alive and have life and when we die we know we have lived
+Ronald Leydic
Ronald Leydic wrote "But rather more like a living planet ."
Planets aren't "alive" genius.
thank you father for keeping this from the wise and prudent and revealing it unto babes
If God is Al!igntly the Devil cannot win and stands no chance. God made everything even the devil. Do these people think before they write?
That's nice wishful thinking at the end about helping others who are suffering, but way too many people are not receiving help, and have very bleak and dismal lives. If there's nothing beyond this world for us, what is the point?
During the times where a Prophet was sent to a people and the people Rejected him and his message then God often inflicted those people with a tragedy. Nowadays, we don't have a Prophet currently preaching to us so its not the same situation. when tragedies happen its not nessisary becuase the people are evil. Prophets preached that there is one God unlike any of his creation(God is not a creature, man, or anything u can imagine). & prophets came with rules of how things should be & how people should behave. & the prophets came with miracles and good character to prove their honesty. I believe that although in this life you may have a starving person on one end and a rich person on the other, they are both being tested to see how they follow the message of the prophet and how well they obey God and how much evil they do & in the end whichever one lives their lives by what the prophets taught earn a high status and a good afterlife. just because that starving person is suffering that doesn't make them good and just because the rich person is wealthy that doesn't mean they are evil. Suffering happens to all of us in different levels/ways. We don't understand how a certain suffering might actually make you a better person (more patient, compassionate, appreciative to God for what you are given) and how something that seems like a great blessing might make you a worse person (arrogant & greedy for example).
I've never had an issue understanding suffering from my beliefs point of view
Starts at 2:40
Okay, I watched the entire video and my response is that there isn't a 'single answer' but 'many answers' why there's so much suffering. One of my personal answers is to demonstrate what kind of world we get that is controlled by humans, nature, and other causes, whatever they may be as opposed to a world controlled by God as promised in the Bible. Another one of my personal answers is that God knew very well that there would be suffering and that it's a necessary part of free will, learning (an example would be a child putting his hand into a flame and feeling pain and as a result of that "suffering" the child "learns" to not do that again), discipline (an example would be to spank a teenager on the rear-end for severely beating up another teenage), and a demonstration of how the world shouldn't be which all points to wanting God all the more for it is He who shall bring about how the world should be as promised in the Bible. Also, the term 'under the sun' is used to show that indeed 'all is "vanity" without God in the picture.'
hO Pistos if, as in your example, you let your child be burned, you as a parent are to blame for letting your child near an open flame.
idiotic!
DO YOU EVEN HAVE A CHILD??
i do, and i taught her things were dangerous "DON'T TOUCH!"
smart parents teach and nurture their children, dumb gods set them up to fail and then punish them.(and the kajillion people after them)
please think before commenting.
thanx
47:36 - "Where do you get your morality from?"
Let's think about *God's* morality for a minute. God says _"If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy."_ (Exodus 21:10)
Right there is God consenting to both slavery and polygamy in the same breath.
Or how about God forbidding cripples, dwarves and hunchbacks from making offerings and sacrifices, because they "have a defect"? (God's words, Lev. 21:16-21).
If you curse your mother or father, you are to be put to death.
If you commit adultery, you are to be put to death.
Homosexuals are to be put to death.
If you see a fortune teller, you are to be put to death.
Then there's the guy in Numbers 15:32 that picked up some sticks on the Sabbath. God commanded that the whole congregation stone the man to death.
Think about that. If you saw that in a news headline today, immediately you would think ISIS (and guess where they got many of their laws from?).
God's 'morality' is horrible.
Discern4 All of what you cited is the old testament law that even then only applied to the tribes of Israel but is no longer applicable. Jesus fulfilled that law and gave us a new covenant.
Didn't Jesus say he came to fulfill the law, not abolish the law? He said nothing was to be changed until Heaven and Earth disappear. Did Heaven and Earth disappear yet?
I'm sure you will explain this away, but there are "Christians" that feel Paul was not a true Apostle, and that his words are lies to this day. So why would Jesus want so many of his followers to be confused about just who to believe?
Nick23at63 Nick
" For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." 1 Cor 14:33
There is no confusion, only levels of ignorance aptly displayed by you and the op. Keep seeking Peace:)
Hey Sean, you know what ignorance is? It's ignoring the question and replying by throwing insults instead of a valid answer, which is what you just did. Jesus told no one to change the law, yet Paul did. So should we believe Paul or Jesus, it's really a simple question? If you can't answer, it proves you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Nick23at63 Nick I simply quoted scripture. Do you really think that your question has not been answered in 2,000 years of doctrine? Paul was sent to fill in for Jesus and Mattathias replaced Judas so there would still be 13. If you think that there is really a contradiction between Paul and Jesus then simply toss the whole thing out the window and move on and become an atheist like Bart Ehrman. No point in getting insulted or mad, life is too short. But if you're really seeking "the truth" ask the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you. Then you'll know. Either you're a believer or you're not. Pretty simple stuff really. Peace.
8:00 regarding Middle to upper class students not understanding suffering...how many may have suffered child abuse?
I realise it’s your thing to heap scorn on your students or anyone not agreeing with you but when will you grow up and deal with your anger? You have to ask yourself, who is God. And who is God in relation to yourself. Going beyond an incredibly powerful deity. You’re only part way along a long journey. Hoping you heal
Great! I agree with much of what you said. A very sensible lecture. I think this is how we should engage with the bible. Within the context of the worldview of the people in the Bible. I see another view though. The view that the kingdom has come...but not fully. It comes when we accept Gods Lordship and start doing his will. This combines the apocalyptic view and your eccliastic view. The kingdom has come and eventually reach its fullness when the final coming takes place. This view is both empowering and comforting. I.e. We can make a difference yet we will not be able to solve everything in this age. Suffering from natural disasters is resolved by applying scientific knowledge. Don't build in places where natural disasters happen. Earth quakes and Tsunamies are Natural events that is a reality of the world we live in. we can assist in famine and educate people. However, selfishness of people will always counter the efforts. God has created us with the capabilities to make a difference, unfortunately we don't use these for the common good of all. These are also New testament ideas. I will be honest with you that rationally I am an agnostic not a Theist ( I don't know if God exists) but I choose to believe that He exists without proof and like the believers in the past I seek understanding. I believe in a Creator, to whom we owe our existence. I believe that he through Christ tried to reveal it to the world. I believe he has created the mechanism to resolve these issues...the Human. And I believe that mostly we suffer because we do not learn from our mistakes. Is he almighty and can He relieve suffering, I believe He can through us. That is the way he chose to do it.Eventhough it may seem that I think I know how to understand suffering ... this is merely suggesting an additional view. All of the above may be true too!
Earthquakes, disease and all the genealogies in the Bible
It amazes me how such a simple topic destroyed a Phd. level Bible scholar.
Why must there be only one answer to suffering?
Some suffering is caused by iniquity. God told Israel live this way and be blessed, or live that way and be cursed, but he did not promise in either case that there would be no suffering just that the suffering would be greater if they chose iniquity.
Some suffering is caused by our individual agency. We each make choices that impact others both positively and negatively.
Some suffering occurs because this life is a test to see how or what we will choose in various circumstances, and even in that we chose to go through the test.
I happen to believe that in order to experience maximum Joy we must experience maximum Sorrow so in response to Virtual Willis I would say that Sorrow is possible in the next life, and the amount of free will we have is based on our choices in this mortal test.
Bart condemns Whisenant for his wrong ('88) prediction, but doesn't condemn Jesus for the same mistake?
Bart makes it clear that Jesus is an invented character so why are you expecting him to waste his time condemning an imaginary person?
In this argument people assume that human life has intrinsic value. That suffering is not just. That we (or God) cannot violate someone's life or well being for any reason. If this is your position you also need a moral absolute. If you don't believe in God, what is this morality and justice being implied in this problem?
Christianity has answers to this question. In an atheistic world view, the question does not (should not) even arise.
If you can't tell right from wrong you need empathy not religious gawds.
Observation of autonomic tendencies (in other words goals) in all biology toward homeostasis shows exactly what "ought" to be done to achieve those goals. In no way is a "moral absolute" required or even possible.
There are humans who have congenital insensitivity, a rare gene condition. In biology there is life that does not age or die of senescence.
Suffering is entirely unnecessary.
Justice is an an entirely Human concept, related to Human societies.
It is not necessary to assume Human life has intrinsic value to determine what should be done to promote health and well-being. It is simply a matter of goal establishment / inference and everything else follows.
There is no logical way to determine what our goals should be simply by observing that we exist.
RUclips comment format problem, I cannot edit the format of my response to properly separate paragraphs. Apologies.
It is immoral to have children.
They will suffer.
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Ro 5:12)
Agnostics and atheists age and die, due to the fall.
And the heart of the issue..defiance.
They have no answers. Never did.
After the apostate gets right with God, suffering takes on eternal significance.
Always reject the Bible doubting information.
"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy [are ye]; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified." (1Pe 4:12-14)
Trust in Jesus Christ. Refuse the nonsense of the defiant.
Let the eternal adventure begin, for you.
:-)
Heaven Awaits?
As little children, we are told,
“You shall die when you grow old,
“But you will have to wait,
And then you’ll go to heaven’s gate.”
In many times, it has been said,
“Say your night prayers by your bed.
And you may have to wait,
But then you go through heaven’s gate.”
“Where is heaven?” children wonder.
Our eyes roll up and look up yonder,
“Yes, we may have to wait,
But way up there is heaven’s gate.”
The children think, the children sigh.
A tiny tear drops from a teeny eye.
They may have to wait,
Yet, they truly know
That heaven’s gate,
Is not up there and in the sky.
For they see clearly
And aloud they cry;
“I need not wait, for in my heart,
Is heaven’s gate!”
Did you write this yourself?
Bart with all due respect, you are misunderstanding dispensationalism.
It's not free will that causes suffering. It's sin (evil) that causes suffering. Free will is a power to alleviate suffering, and do something about evil.
suffering from god in order to produce repentance is only applicable to those who've made a covenant with god. tsunami in Indonesia or massacre in Cambodia has nothing to do with god. not all suffering comes from god, most is natural order of life. god can and sometimes does intervene in these natural possesses... we call these miracles. just a point I found the speaker missed.
Couldn't have or he wouldn't bring up Indonesia or Cambodia since they made no covenant to return to, suffering or no.
+Jeremiah Traxler So...what good is Your God ?----- What purpose does he serve? ------Why did he create Mankind?
***** lol, unsure what I think. Sometimes things feel meant to be, sometimes I have to take ownership of my own life soooooo yeah. What are your thoughts?
jjsiegal1 what God is my god? I don't know. Those are great questions and I could tell you what thinkers say but I find it so challenging to come to concrete conclusions.
***** I agree for the most part. I would add that all my choices effect your options from one generation to the next. So though i have a choice, always, I don't control my options. Those are what they are. So I find a mixture of both ideas to be most logically sound as opposed to a dogmatic either or philosophy.
that god is an abusing husband . love him or he will abuse you
I really see your point...
There ain't no justice.
My sisters, one Orthodox Jew, the other Roman Catholic (don't ask), both believe in our Mom's Just Reality Hypothesis. Judge people's actions and, in the end, justice will prevail. Meanwhile make good choices for yourself, family, neighborhood, nation,...take big bites, live well for this day.
Ah, well, how grand, if true. Two NDE's later, all I saw in the light was what my life had meant to me, and I was content. (That glowing light was a sum on a spreadsheet of all the interactions with other minds [including animal] weighted by consanguinity and recency.) Your mileage may vary.
Note well, I judged myself.
I must suggest rather put forward the fact that Adam choose who would be God. The prince of the air. It is not God it is Lucifer even the confusion that exists emanates from the efforts directed to destroy Yahouah's design.
Praise to ALLAH we do not have to struggle this way , because every think is explained in details in ISLAM .
@Jubei Yang Lol no it's not. Islam is shit.
Suddenly id recall god conversation with angels in the quran,The angels askin god why you gonna creates mankind whom shed blood
and put them on earth, while here we' re prostrate an worship you .In reply Allah saying ..I know what you do not know
9:39 this is the nature of man's 'fallen' state; he is unreachable. God can not make an ignoramus see or feel or know anything, because, well the guy is an ignoramus...and so he will suffer over and over again, and God is simply watching the guy's movie of life without any influence being made upon bettering the poor fool's situation..get it? Ignorance, attachment, aversion...it is pretty simple and straightforward, actually