I'm a traditional tillage guy... erosion is always a problem... but if you properly do moldboard plowing you can minimize it. The bad thing I see is the use of no till is chemical usage.
Might be because a little different region (no beans or corn but mostly cereals and oil seeds) but here in Saskatchewan you would never find a mouldboard plough anywhere except maybe on an old fence line from back in the 1930s or something. There are guys that are no-till, guys that are min-till, and guys that are full till. Depending on where you go, there is a fair bit of fallow ground, mostly to save moisture and control weeds. Instead of a mouldboard plough here, you have heavy harrows and/or cultivators (chisel ploughs to some people). You get the benefit of tillage without the con of erosion (or at least greatly reduced erosion). Heavy harrows basically just scratch the top inch and the heavy duty tines vibrate to help shatter the trash and spread it out evenly. Cultivators blacken the top inch or two a fair bit but you are still left with a bit of a trash cover on top. They are getting replaced by high speed discs such as Degelman Pro Tills and the like. Then, there are guys that will absolutely never touch the ground except at seeding time. They are finding problems now such as sour ground from being too wet too long, herbicide resistant weeds, and disease pressure. I wouldn’t ever say go full tillage. That’s as silly as saying you should never till. Personally, I find that min till has the benefits of both no till and full till. I get started seeding sooner in the spring, my soil is worked but not obliterated into powder like in full till, and I don’t have compaction issues and rough fields that no till brings. I’m surprised you Americans don’t try heavy harrows and shallow cultivations more than sinking in that old mouldboard plough half a foot into the ground. Those things belong in museums. I’m not saying don’t live in a sprayer though neither like no till guys.
I used to suggest low disturbance ripping when pre-existing compaction was a problem going into reduced tillage or direct seeding. Then I discovered the ability of regular crop root systems to attack and eliminate this compaction at 8 to 14 inches in depth. I saw this happen in heavy clay and silt loam soils equally well. The caveat was that the root systems were able to move deep in the plow layer rapidly enough to have time left on their growth clock to attack the compacted zone(s). Unfortunately, most secondary tillage operation of min-till tools hinder the rapid growth of the roots and contribute to anaerobic soil conditions which produce ethylene. The ethylene produces abnormal root development which results in shallow root systems. I always try address deep compaction issues but I'm not as concerned about it anymore. If I can create rapid root growth with good water management and gas exchange efficiency as a result of better water management (heavily focused on percolation, not JUST infiltration) then compaction is on the way out and trafficability and aggregate stability will ram up very quickly.
I'm not a farmer, but I grew up on a beef and hog operation back in the 60's & 70's in S.W.Michigan. My Dad sold the Farm in 78, but I've still have and interest in this particular topic. I believe I grasp most of what you're saying. A farmer friend of my Dad's has been farming near Battle Creek his entire life, he's 87. Apparently they no till all there acreage about 1800 acres and spray. I have many questions about this topic in regards to crops that are organically produced. Such as weed control.
Here in nz the ground is usually heavily tilled. It is mostly molboard ploughed then power harrowed. On grass the ground will usually be levelled with a leveller because the grass will be in the ground for 5+ years before regrassed. The land is then power harrowed again usually because levelling can accodentally make the topsoil too thin . For the ploughing tillage depth can be up to around 5 inches edit: ploughing can reduce compaction by up to 30% and power harrowing makes the soil even more aerated and "fluffy" helping moisture retention and absorption
The problem with no till, is the need for more herbicids. We used to plow under our alfalfa ground before going to a year or two of corn. Now they burn it off with chemicals. The first year after plowing under the alfalfa the corn was almost weed free. Only a minimal use of herbicided and not insecticide was needed. I used to plow my corn ground and chisel my bean and small grain land. So, the land was not plowed every year. It worked pretty well for me up here in Minesota with our shorter seasons.
The size of farms today it not practical to moldboard plowing .but if use hay as rotation then plowit when being return to roe cropping Thanks for your expert advise adive
We have a small farm. Just 11 farmable acres since I was a child. At the start of the roation the field would have been hay for about 4 years We would plow then disc then tine hat to smooth then plant corn. The next year plow then disc and har again then plant oats and hay crop alfalfa clover all that jazz. Then that year you harvest the oats and for the next 4 years you harvest the hay. I am wondering if always plowing makes sense being that there is 4 gap years in our rotation
Wha...? First off, ammonia nitrogen (along with a proper ratio of soil bacterial life) can easily keep the grounds warmer in the fall no matter the temperate zone. Ammonia Nitrogen has a unique ability to freeze when heated and heat when frozen, of course the bacteria play a role in this too, but mold board plowing she only be done in the Fall, secondly BEFORE plowing is done you have to do soil tests to determine what the soil is needing and doesn’t need, and I am not talking about synthetic NPK crap, I’m talking about putting back real pure elements into your soils, THEN you can plow and treat your soils with the proper fertilizers. Carbon is greatly responsible for preventing soil erosion, one reason the soil breaks down is due to a lack of carbon and moisture control. Which is why farms pour hundreds of gallons frequent on soil because the soil, due to a lack of carbon levels, is not regulating moisture and when the moisture levels go down, the nitrogen levels go up, the higher the nitrogen levels the less beneficial bacteria, the less Anionic growth, because nitrogen’s are Cationic in nature, the more Cationic energy the more acid the soil pH becomes. By the way, the less carbon there is the weaker the electromagnetic current flowing through the top soil is, thus allowing a leakage of elements deeper into the soils, elements like Calcium and calcium is the element more widely used by volume for the plants than ANY other element. Carbon helps to stabilize the position of each element in the soil. I could go on for hours, but I will get off my soap box now.
Nobody want to talk about lack of burying the previous years material giving disease a medium to survive over winter? There were less disease in arable crops before winter sown crops and no till. The old dudes had it right. If you want to stop soil erosion then you should have used a rotation with grass forms a better soil.structure when it's not tilled constantly.
That's why we're down to subsoil in some places, ground can't survive being tilled to hell off and on for 150 years. I raised organic crops, every time you see dust fly, its topsoil leaving that took thousands of years to build. Dig a trench with a backhoe in a field, and continue through the field edge. Tell me where the soil is more black. :) Tillage has its place, but it needs to be used judiciously.
Assuming annual crops rather than livestock farming. We had hay & pasture fields only broken up after 5 years plus. Annual crops for 2 years, then back in hay. Erosion not a big concern.
Problem I've got with no till is all the poison that you have to use and my ground is so hard with yellow clay in some spots that nothing will grow there it'll come packed tight on its own like a brick moldboard plowing is the only way I have of doing anything unless I use a ripper
I think every form of tillage has it’s place we notill, deep rip, chisel plow and molboard plow some times. People have to remember chisel plowing, and ripping can lead to erosion. Even zone tillage can. We have to be adaptive to the land we farm.
If I'm trying to fix deep washout in no till land, I'll chisel plow the area and then run the disk over instead of turning everything up with a moldboard.
Brian JOnker there has been many discussions on yield loss in corn on corn. When we molboard plow we don’t see any yield loss. Also try molboard plowing corn and compare soybean yields side by side. You will be surprised. Have said this, we rarely go corn on corn and we don’t plow down corn before beans. I can’t find anyone who can do a good job besides me and I don’t have the time. This is my opinion.
@@dschefers9700 Thanks for sharing your experience. Im sure your exact soil types & lay of the land & micro-climate are all vital details to its success for you. I do well with corn on corn on lots of my fields....but not all
but they didnt even talking about the water holding capacity of the ground when you go no till, especially if you cover crop. 1 foot acre of land can hold about 320,000 gallons of water, tilling dries out your soil faster. just think if you could hold all that water, thats about 7.5 gallons of water per square foot. you dont have to worry about a drout if your soil is retaining that amount of water and have carbon built up in the soil to help hold it there.
Mike, we are probably going to find out just how much water got stored on no-till mid-west soils this year when it finally stops raining. Typically it will not be pretty.
Man i wish i could post pictures in these comments. Id show you the lake our neighbors field turns into after its been dry and we get alot of rain. And it just sits there! That land is so compacted and smells like a chemical plant.
actually yes in one year depending on how it rains, winds, and what not you can set yourself back 5 years for 1 year of tilling. Look up no kill cropping. (save your farm diversify NOW) If I could get bob red mill to buy that as a premium product lol. I might till maybe once every 10 years. I even have started looking into other ways of making potatoes.
The mould board creates compaction and the wind and sun crust your soil. To compare and contrast compaction and the reaction to the material from the weather is exactly what I want to accomplish grading a gravel road. We have been road building for 150 years not farming until recently. All tillage is bad
Youre a fool. Do it without a drop of chemical and see how you do. Chemicals kill good bacteria in the soil. How do you think they built dirt runways in world war 2? They used chemicals to kill the bacteria in the soil so it would compact to hold the weight of the b29s. Chemical farming is bad. The bible says plow your soil. Says it multiple times through it.
@@lovetofly32 I tend to prefer wisdom of the Bible myself though I do wonder where discing and harrowing play into that since they didn’t exist at the time. God bless tractors and implements
Absolutely love subscribing to your channel, thanks much for all the great work that you two do.
Thank you guys for finally speaking about the moldboard plow!
Brian responded to your comment on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/06-03-19-improving-spray-performance#t=53:21
I'm a traditional tillage guy... erosion is always a problem... but if you properly do moldboard plowing you can minimize it. The bad thing I see is the use of no till is chemical usage.
do you not have to spray your crops?
@@cormus1 not like the no till guys do
@@tdgreenbay so twice
Brian responded to your comment on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/06-03-19-improving-spray-performance#t=53:21
@@cormus1 not like the no till guys
I vote for moldboard plowing!! 🚜
I've seen both around my house and my opinion is only till when you lime to get it in soil and only on ground that doesn't erode bad
Might be because a little different region (no beans or corn but mostly cereals and oil seeds) but here in Saskatchewan you would never find a mouldboard plough anywhere except maybe on an old fence line from back in the 1930s or something.
There are guys that are no-till, guys that are min-till, and guys that are full till. Depending on where you go, there is a fair bit of fallow ground, mostly to save moisture and control weeds. Instead of a mouldboard plough here, you have heavy harrows and/or cultivators (chisel ploughs to some people). You get the benefit of tillage without the con of erosion (or at least greatly reduced erosion). Heavy harrows basically just scratch the top inch and the heavy duty tines vibrate to help shatter the trash and spread it out evenly.
Cultivators blacken the top inch or two a fair bit but you are still left with a bit of a trash cover on top. They are getting replaced by high speed discs such as Degelman Pro Tills and the like.
Then, there are guys that will absolutely never touch the ground except at seeding time. They are finding problems now such as sour ground from being too wet too long, herbicide resistant weeds, and disease pressure.
I wouldn’t ever say go full tillage. That’s as silly as saying you should never till.
Personally, I find that min till has the benefits of both no till and full till. I get started seeding sooner in the spring, my soil is worked but not obliterated into powder like in full till, and I don’t have compaction issues and rough fields that no till brings.
I’m surprised you Americans don’t try heavy harrows and shallow cultivations more than sinking in that old mouldboard plough half a foot into the ground. Those things belong in museums. I’m not saying don’t live in a sprayer though neither like no till guys.
Brian addressed your comments on Ag PhD Radio: on.soundcloud.com/khLtt
I used to suggest low disturbance ripping when pre-existing compaction was a problem going into reduced tillage or direct seeding. Then I discovered the ability of regular crop root systems to attack and eliminate this compaction at 8 to 14 inches in depth. I saw this happen in heavy clay and silt loam soils equally well. The caveat was that the root systems were able to move deep in the plow layer rapidly enough to have time left on their growth clock to attack the compacted zone(s). Unfortunately, most secondary tillage operation of min-till tools hinder the rapid growth of the roots and contribute to anaerobic soil conditions which produce ethylene. The ethylene produces abnormal root development which results in shallow root systems. I always try address deep compaction issues but I'm not as concerned about it anymore. If I can create rapid root growth with good water management and gas exchange efficiency as a result of better water management (heavily focused on percolation, not JUST infiltration) then compaction is on the way out and trafficability and aggregate stability will ram up very quickly.
I'm not a farmer, but I grew up on a beef and hog operation back in the 60's & 70's in S.W.Michigan. My Dad sold the Farm in 78, but I've still have and interest in this particular topic. I believe I grasp most of what you're saying. A farmer friend of my Dad's has been farming near Battle Creek his entire life, he's 87. Apparently they no till all there acreage about 1800 acres and spray. I have many questions about this topic in regards to crops that are organically produced. Such as weed control.
Here in nz the ground is usually heavily tilled. It is mostly molboard ploughed then power harrowed. On grass the ground will usually be levelled with a leveller because the grass will be in the ground for 5+ years before regrassed. The land is then power harrowed again usually because levelling can accodentally make the topsoil too thin . For the ploughing tillage depth can be up to around 5 inches edit: ploughing can reduce compaction by up to 30% and power harrowing makes the soil even more aerated and "fluffy" helping moisture retention and absorption
People use to do that here. It was called working the soil to death. Maybe one day you all will figure it out.
The problem with no till, is the need for more herbicids. We used to plow under our alfalfa ground before going to a year or two of corn. Now they burn it off with chemicals. The first year after plowing under the alfalfa the corn was almost weed free. Only a minimal use of herbicided and not insecticide was needed. I used to plow my corn ground and chisel my bean and small grain land. So, the land was not plowed every year. It worked pretty well for me up here in Minesota with our shorter seasons.
Brian and Darren responded to your comments on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/05-25-21-corn-tasseling#t=57:59
The size of farms today it not practical to moldboard plowing .but if use hay as rotation then plowit when being return to roe cropping
Thanks for your expert advise adive
Brian and Darren addressed your comments on Ag PhD Radio: on.soundcloud.com/KKXNW
We have a small farm. Just 11 farmable acres since I was a child. At the start of the roation the field would have been hay for about 4 years We would plow then disc then tine hat to smooth then plant corn. The next year plow then disc and har again then plant oats and hay crop alfalfa clover all that jazz. Then that year you harvest the oats and for the next 4 years you harvest the hay. I am wondering if always plowing makes sense being that there is 4 gap years in our rotation
Brian and Darren addressed your comments on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/03-26-21-farmer-friday#t=56:53
Wha...? First off, ammonia nitrogen (along with a proper ratio of soil bacterial life) can easily keep the grounds warmer in the fall no matter the temperate zone. Ammonia Nitrogen has a unique ability to freeze when heated and heat when frozen, of course the bacteria play a role in this too, but mold board plowing she only be done in the Fall, secondly BEFORE plowing is done you have to do soil tests to determine what the soil is needing and doesn’t need, and I am not talking about synthetic NPK crap, I’m talking about putting back real pure elements into your soils, THEN you can plow and treat your soils with the proper fertilizers. Carbon is greatly responsible for preventing soil erosion, one reason the soil breaks down is due to a lack of carbon and moisture control. Which is why farms pour hundreds of gallons frequent on soil because the soil, due to a lack of carbon levels, is not regulating moisture and when the moisture levels go down, the nitrogen levels go up, the higher the nitrogen levels the less beneficial bacteria, the less Anionic growth, because nitrogen’s are Cationic in nature, the more Cationic energy the more acid the soil pH becomes. By the way, the less carbon there is the weaker the electromagnetic current flowing through the top soil is, thus allowing a leakage of elements deeper into the soils, elements like Calcium and calcium is the element more widely used by volume for the plants than ANY other element. Carbon helps to stabilize the position of each element in the soil. I could go on for hours, but I will get off my soap box now.
Holy cow… teach me lol
Yep these guys sound like children discussing things they just started learning about but don't really understand.
Nobody want to talk about lack of burying the previous years material giving disease a medium to survive over winter?
There were less disease in arable crops before winter sown crops and no till.
The old dudes had it right. If you want to stop soil erosion then you should have used a rotation with grass forms a better soil.structure when it's not tilled constantly.
That's why we're down to subsoil in some places, ground can't survive being tilled to hell off and on for 150 years. I raised organic crops, every time you see dust fly, its topsoil leaving that took thousands of years to build. Dig a trench with a backhoe in a field, and continue through the field edge. Tell me where the soil is more black. :) Tillage has its place, but it needs to be used judiciously.
Assuming annual crops rather than livestock farming.
We had hay & pasture fields only broken up after 5 years plus. Annual crops for 2 years, then back in hay. Erosion not a big concern.
Brian responded to your comment on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/06-03-19-improving-spray-performance#t=53:21
Problem I've got with no till is all the poison that you have to use and my ground is so hard with yellow clay in some spots that nothing will grow there it'll come packed tight on its own like a brick moldboard plowing is the only way I have of doing anything unless I use a ripper
Brian and Darren addressed your comments on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/01-21-21-plant-health#t=2:39
Hi Darren and Brian
Millennial Farmer fan huh
Yep
@@nicke1903 yes
I think every form of tillage has it’s place we notill, deep rip, chisel plow and molboard plow some times. People have to remember chisel plowing, and ripping can lead to erosion. Even zone tillage can. We have to be adaptive to the land we farm.
What circumstances would lead you to moldboard plow rather than chisel?
If I'm trying to fix deep washout in no till land, I'll chisel plow the area and then run the disk over instead of turning everything up with a moldboard.
Brian JOnker there has been many discussions on yield loss in corn on corn. When we molboard plow we don’t see any yield loss. Also try molboard plowing corn and compare soybean yields side by side. You will be surprised. Have said this, we rarely go corn on corn and we don’t plow down corn before beans. I can’t find anyone who can do a good job besides me and I don’t have the time. This is my opinion.
@@dschefers9700 Thanks for sharing your experience. Im sure your exact soil types & lay of the land & micro-climate are all vital details to its success for you.
I do well with corn on corn on lots of my fields....but not all
Brian responded to your comment on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/06-03-19-improving-spray-performance#t=53:21
but they didnt even talking about the water holding capacity of the ground when you go no till, especially if you cover crop. 1 foot acre of land can hold about 320,000 gallons of water, tilling dries out your soil faster. just think if you could hold all that water, thats about 7.5 gallons of water per square foot. you dont have to worry about a drout if your soil is retaining that amount of water and have carbon built up in the soil to help hold it there.
Mike, we are probably going to find out just how much water got stored on no-till mid-west soils this year when it finally stops raining. Typically it will not be pretty.
depends if a cover crop as used or not and how long you have been doing it. if youre no-tilling into essentially bare soil then yes it wont be pretty.
Man i wish i could post pictures in these comments. Id show you the lake our neighbors field turns into after its been dry and we get alot of rain. And it just sits there! That land is so compacted and smells like a chemical plant.
Plowing is the only way to go and rotating crops at the same time
Brian and Darren addressed your comment on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/05-06-21-early-corn-fungicides#t=54:03
The plow that broke the Plains
Someplaces won't be able to No Till,ground and Growing Season won't let ya get by with it.
Brian responded to your comment on Ag PhD Radio: soundcloud.com/agphd/06-03-19-improving-spray-performance#t=53:21
actually yes in one year depending on how it rains, winds, and what not you can set yourself back 5 years for 1 year of tilling. Look up no kill cropping. (save your farm diversify NOW) If I could get bob red mill to buy that as a premium product lol. I might till maybe once every 10 years. I even have started looking into other ways of making potatoes.
The mould board creates compaction and the wind and sun crust your soil. To compare and contrast compaction and the reaction to the material from the weather is exactly what I want to accomplish grading a gravel road. We have been road building for 150 years not farming until recently. All tillage is bad
You have not visited with the content of www.soilcursebuster.com yet, rollie. You cannot legitimately make your claim about ALL tillage.
Youre a fool. Do it without a drop of chemical and see how you do. Chemicals kill good bacteria in the soil. How do you think they built dirt runways in world war 2? They used chemicals to kill the bacteria in the soil so it would compact to hold the weight of the b29s. Chemical farming is bad. The bible says plow your soil. Says it multiple times through it.
@@lovetofly32 I tend to prefer wisdom of the Bible myself though I do wonder where discing and harrowing play into that since they didn’t exist at the time. God bless tractors and implements
You guys obviously don't grow vegetables.