Atheist Debates - Spiritual but not Religious
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- Part of the Atheist Debates Patreon project: / atheistdebates
This talk, delivered in Regina, SK, Canada takes a look at those who label themselves 'spiritual but not religious'.
I remember when I said I was "spiritual".. a few years later I figured I was really an atheist in denial
Same
Then you were never truly "spiritual".
@@caravan3636 i wasn't because the word has no meaning
@@nathanmckenzie904 I dont concider myself spiritual because i also dont really think it has meaning. So i agree with you thus why i also put these " " when using the word. Because its just that, a word. If you want to go a bit deeper than just being some hairless monkey, then i suggest reading more about the topic with an open mind. Try meditation aswell. Speakers and writers like Alan Watts come to mind. But you can also ignore all i say and continue living while asleep. That is also okay, but refrain from discussing the topic from which you have not even touched the tip of the iceberg.
Same here! I have wanted so badly for so long to believe in god, to the point of saying that I believe. When I realized nothing I could do or read to make myself believe, I tried the “I’m spiritual”, but eventually that also failed miserably.
Now I realize that o need to be honest with myself and admit that I really am an atheist 😊
I love listening to you talk and the work you do. I have recently (just last month) become an atheist and The Atheist Experience and your channel has helped me psychologically as I change my mind. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
A year later, how goes it? Any issues with family/friends? Here's hoping you have great good luck.
I love listening to you speak and your logic. Please keep going on!
When a person says they are spiritual, I always take that to mean they are saying they are highly emotional and prone to feelings of extreme awe and inspiration. That they are moved emotionally quite often.
At least that's the best I can gather by what they say spiritual means to them. It always has to do with what they feel and how intensely they feel it.
It is truly a metaphor for living a good life. Meditation has real benefits, and developing a healthy philosophy behind that can lead anyone (most?) to a healthier mindset.
I am still an athiest agnostic. I live my life with the assumption that a God doesn’t exist and I can not know about it.
However I also am in awe of our beautiful universe, and I think the best way to experience it is to “experience it fully” through thoughtful observation and contemplation.
I don’t believe a God exists, not that there are no Gods, but I think it is unlikely.
You can also take it to mean they like alcohol.
No it means they believe in spirits and other dimensions and energies
@@kimmmimemwest1895 you’re missing his point. When someone says their spiritual it could mean a plethora of things, which matt even mentioned in his speech. It’s an extremely broad term, maybe more so that even Christianity as their are many sects to that. But I think OPs point here is at the very core of anyone who is spiritual, what he stated is every spiritual persons motivation.
@@giraffe1219 I didn't Miss his point he started his point very clearly and now you are making a different and separate point of your own and attributing it to someone else ..I'm going off his words not yours ... And as for your words ... I already said what people mean by spiritually ...and it has nothing to do with being emotional .. it means u believe in spirits and or other dimensions...
Great talk. I'm among the people who identified as "spiritual" before moving forward into atheism. It was a lovely comfort in which I could hold on to more comfortable beliefs without further explanation.
im sure it has some social benefits too when talking to theists..spome may feel its better to say "im not religious but spiritual" than saying atheist to other people ?
Actually, I'm spiritual, but I usually feel it's better to identify as an atheist, just to let people know they have zero hope of convincing me of a God or of supernatural occurrences. It's good to get all that out of the way. We can talk spiritual stuff once they accept that.
Comfortable and convenient - atheism in a nutshell
@@InhabitantOfOddworld do some shroom my guy. free your mind
Thanks Matt, what a wonderful talk, I see this issue all the time, and it needed to be addressed.
Matt had a "spiritual" caller some months ago on the AE. This talk sounds like it was inspired by that conversation with great follow-up thoughts. Excellent presentation.
Absolutelly brilliant! I speacilly loved the idea that spirituality had originated when primitive people saw someone dying and they made the assumption something left the body cause it is not there anymore. That notion is what probably initiated believe in spirituality and consequently led way for religions to appear to explain where that "thing that left the body and is not there anymore" went to. I also loved the simple way you explained how people engaging in spirituality are actually people which left or never embraced religion, but do not feel sufficiently confident to deny it trully and entirelly, so they end up in these "spiritual, but not religious" ground diplomatically thinking it is a safe ground. You are also right by saying these people are claiming "Religions are false, but there is something" being closer, or equal, depending of what we analise, to religion, than on atheism. I may be forgeting more great points you made, but anyway, as usually, you nailed it Matt, and I can just embrace the motto: "I believe Matt can explain it!"
Thank you for yet another good video, Matt! You are really well spoken and writes thought through content and I really appreciate that. Greetings from Sweden!
Loved this talk. Thanks for coming to Saskatchewan, Matt.
I think this is my favourite talk of yours I've ever heard, Matt.
Thank you for standing up for the value of semantics.
As enjoyable and important the contributions of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Dennett are, I love it how precisely and clearly Dillahunty get´s to a point. As far as I know he doesn´t have a book yet, he just has to write one covering his best arguments.
Perfect example of people taking advantage of this position is 12 step recovery programs.
Matt
I'd have to agree with you but for the fact that in those rooms l learned just how a usefull god is manmade. Were it not for learning the skill of introsoection I'd had rather forgotten my mutiyear experience with the 12 & 12.
Oh, and these are only introductions!
This is called ambiguous profiting.
If spiritual means that I have a soul that can be separated from the body then, no, I'm not spiritual. It is maybe not the right term to label it, but I have often called my deep attachment to nature and life as spiritual. However, it seems that the term spiritual is not the proper way to describe that.
Try using the word affinity.
That what I’m like
Society is filled with hurting people. Addicts and alcoholics find hope through faith and spirituality. Could these people find hope in atheism?
3 years ago, I was one of these morons who refused to be an atheist because I thought it was a religion. LOL
Many years ago, I told someone that I was the least religious person ever. They said, are you an atheist? I said no...because the atheist badge seemed dirty to me. It was much easier to dismiss the entire subject of religion when I didn't dislike religion. It's harder to be an atheist than to be a passive non-believer. When I say that it's harder...it's harder to defend publicly.
Ted Soto
I've come to thoroughly enjoy defending my position to the point where I go looking for those arguments. :)
Geoff Stockton At this point in my life, I enjoy being a quiet atheist because I have no time for trolls. My friends and family know my position. I'm retired so I don't need to hide my position at work anymore either. I simply want to enjoy life now and that includes watching this stuff. I donate to FFR to fight for me.
Red Hunteur Don't get me wrong. I really appreciate people like Matt D who lay out logical moral arguments while pointing out that BS. But I'm not the best person to play "trap the religious person" in either a moral quagmire or logical fallacy trap.
Ted Soto
For whatever reason, it's an addiction for me, and I wish I could say that it was entirely benevolent. It is, MOSTLY. But I do love the squirm of cognitive dissonance on an unsuspecting theist.
Excellent talk.
I have a friend/ work partner who goes for that "spiritual" stuff, even though she says she's not religious. She drops into casual conversation that she was thinking about someone she hadn't heard from in a while and an hour later, they phone. Then it happened again a few later. It's amazing, no, how people can connect like that? (Erm.. no. It's called coincidence.)
I try to not let this make me question her abilities to think rationally, but it's really difficult. I don't bother challenging her on it since I'd just get labelled an old cranky curmudgeon for bashing her "feel good" beliefs. She and another good friend just feed each other on this stuff. It bugs the shit out of me.
Thanks for this, Matt. Wish I could share it with these people and maybe get them to think critically about these ideas but it wouldn't go over well and they'd just dismiss it anyway.
I feel ya man.
I guess I could see that there is some sort of energy that started everything but I don't see any point in worshiping it.
This is such a strong case, I think it should have a lot more exposure! It's so strong, rational, logical, impossible to argue against. I mean come on, this is the kind of raitonality that we should all have for building a better world. Truth and skepticism are king.
Think a lot of the spiritual stuff is mostly the chemicals in our brains during certain events. Watch a nice sunset, after a warm day and the slightly cooler breeze from evening hits you just right. You feel really good, and for that moment you feel at peace. A lot of people are so busy doing stuff so often that those moments seem far apart. So you can convince yourself that that special moment was something more than what it was.
I had physical experiences that convinced me as an atheist, that a god was real I spent 12 years as a Christian. It was many years after my return to atheism, that I finally got rid of the 'spiritual' label. I still believed in an "energy" that was the spiritual force that people felt. It wasn't until I self-diagnosed my experiences as the likely result of neocortical temporal lobe epilepsy. Brain farts lol. But I was one of the spiritual atheists for a long time.
The brain is the hard drive of the spirit matrix, that’s why. Hence why the “universe” aka this matrix reflects a brain.
brain farts epilepsy XDD. Just keep your feet on the ground and live simply - you don’t have to believe or not believe anything - don’t take the weight of anyone on your shoulders
@@consciouspresence5880 Amen
As humans progress in understanding our universe, words and labels change definition to better reflect that new and better understanding. One such word and label begging for such a redefinition is "Spirituality." When I stopped believing, I needed to understand the "spiritual connections" that I felt. Thus, I came up with this revised definition of spirituality, namely "A subjective creation of a deep or profound emotional connection to persons, places, objects and/or experiences, whilst NOT attributable to anything existentially specific." This definition applies whether religious or not and addresses the complexity of the human condition.
This is great!
Thanks for sharing, Matt.
Excellent talk, Matt. I'm especially irked by people when they tell me they're spiritual but not religious.
They simply haven't given it enough thought, but they can sense the BS that is religion. I prefer them over the overtly religious.
Looks like your brain got into a fist fight with some sharp objects.
You seem wrapped up in teleology. Stop that.
why?
newman447 Because it doesn't make sense. What does spiritual even mean?
+David W a connection with earth, with nature, with other people, feeling empathy for others, a strong intuition, a sense of well being, caring, sharing??.....do you have to believe in God to have those things?.....Does it have to have a singular meaning?....other things in life have many meanings. Being so definitive to the nth degree is very narrow minded. I wouldnt for a second say what you could or couldn't do, say, believe, not believe, and neither should you be so presumptuous to assume that you could be so exact in saying that these things are mutually exclusive, end of story. This is where, FOR ME, religion is a problem. Religion, FOR ME, is too greedy in its desire for control. This is only my opinion, and I'm happy that you have yours...
G_D is my pair of ADS L810s.
Thank you for listening to my TED talk.
I must admit: I used to find your public access TV show unbearably smug; but with this you did an excellent job, and I thoroughly enjoyed listening
I really like this latest series of talks Matt because I feel that you've really gotten better.
Another reason that I like these latest videos is because I've never been christian. I was raised atheist yet I tried zen buddhism and though I haven't gone in two years, I still meditate. I've always wanted you to talk to buddhism and similar concepts (such as "spiritual but not religious" lol). However I didn't want to suggest it because you are quite focused on and experienced with christianity. Thank you for touching on these subjects.
Buddhism is particularly interesting here as it is (ostensibly) an atheist religion.
Buddhism is tied into SATANISM.........Don't you know anything at all?
Human consciousness is spiritual in nature. This can be demonstrated. I do very much like Matt's emphasis on get the label the hell out of the way and let's see if your actual concept has merit. I'm spiritual and can tell you why I am, what that means, and why it's inherent in the human condition.
Its been 7 months and im waiting for your demonstration. You have provided nothing but a statement.
And...?
@@jasonnadal9721 Never saw your reply till now. Will send you a book if you want. Very quick read. Give me an email?
@@e-t-y237 Im interested in this book!! My email is bluerose8213@gmail.com
Thank you for your time and reply.
It's a Shame. God is the Existence of Love. Everybody Believes Love Exists.
Atheists Unnecessarily Overcomplicate it.
It's Unfortunate
If he has not yet, Matt should read Sam Harris’ “Waking Up.” Matt seems to be basing his dismissal of the “spiritual” concept on strawmans. You don’t need God or even belief in a separate soul be spiritual. It simply means a personal feeling of deeper connection with nature or the cosmos. Spirituality is a part of who were are as humans. There is no denying that.
And those definitions probably include what I said with much different wording, but with the existence of gods/spirits. When thinking “spiritual,” just think meditation and high states of consciousness.
Can you define what you mean by "deeper connection with nature or the cosmos"?
I'm so sad I missed this - I live only 2 hours away from Regina and I'd love to see Matt speak.
This is not a debate...its grandstanding
Spritual is so called English translation of Sanskrit Word
" *Adhyatm(अध्यात्म)* "
the Word Adhyatm frim the 2 sanskrit word
1. अध्ययन (Adhyan) means Study
2. Atman (आत्मन) loosely described as self
So the spiritual (Adhyatma) means Study of the self ..... 🙏🙏🙏🙏
Yeah, by some definitions and in some contexts that's true
There's absolutely nothing wrong with taking on a belief that is informed by ones deeper intuition, or "feeling". I believe there is a deeper part of our consciousness that transcends the restrictions of our limited perception. This transcendent state can be achieved through the use of exogenous and endogenous DMT via meditation. I think DMT may hold the keys to the nature of consciousness and reality.
Conscious Robot okay Joe Rogan. What’s the difference between a mushroom trip and dmt then?
Or better yet, a dream and DMT.
Intuition can be wrong.
All of the religous and spiritual people and their reasons for their beliefs can all be summed up in two beautiful psychological words,
"Cognitive Dissonance"
"You can't know anything about God" is a statement that you know that you don't know anything about the subject you know something about.
I am atheist myself--I identify as an agnostic atheist, because as far as I understand things it appears to be more intellectually honest to say that I can't be 100% sure about anything. However, since the likelihood of a god existing (especially any specific human depiction of a god) seems incredibly low, I am for all intents and purposes simply atheist.
That said, I still enjoy theology in the same way I enjoy any other mythology. I can acknowledge that "God" could be a fun metaphorical symbol for things without actually being anything true. Similarly, I can acknowledge that there are numerous ways to depict a river on a map, without thinking something crazy like "there is only one true way to represent a river on a map!" or "if I stare at it long enough it'll feel like I'm swimming in the river." The lines on the map are not real land, they're just representative of something real; I think the problem is buying into the idea that these symbols are actually the thing they represent rather than being merely metaphorical.
I think that it's possible to use mythological concepts as stories and metaphors for useful meaning, without getting wrapped up in some stupid "I'm spiritual, but not religious" belief system as the people you described have. To use an example this video brought up, you can refer to the "human spirit" and have that be a useful concept, but it doesn't mean you have to believe in an actual "spirit" in a supernatural sense.
In any case, Bible myths are still some of my favorite stories (after they're understood, of course--the actual reading is kinda boring), and I think it's fun to see what kind of lessons I can work out of them if I view them a certain way. Almost as a sort of game.
I cringe when I think of myself back in high school. I recall saying a few times being asked if I’m religious and I responded no I’m spiritual… what a cop out word. Looking back I was just conforming and had nothing to back up what I meant
The thing is that the word spiritual has no real definitive meaning, it's really just an emotional thing so it can be as broad as you want it to be.
I’m an atheist by reasonable definitions of the term and I do often describe myself as spiritual but not religious. It’s just the most fitting term I’ve found to describe my sense of priorities and focus in life. I practice meditation and yoga in a fairly intensive way, for instance. I experience a strong subjective sense of value from these practices, and my mind seems to have benefited greatly. Woo abounds in just about any spiritual community structure, but my pursuits are a mostly solo activity so I’m not put off. Sorting woo from useful info helps me be more skeptical and more mindful. I’d love to hear a word for what I do that fits better than ‘spiritual’ but I haven’t heard of it yet. Obvious no word is really necessary but people get curious about me and I feel compelled to give them some sense of my priorities.
@@vanilakai I’m glad you were entertained at least. My mommy says I’m special so your argument is invalid.
@@vanilakai This has really been my wake up call. Thanks for your valuable service.
You're like most of us who used the term "Spiritual but not Religious". I'm not an Atheist but I cause I believe in a creator but not as outlined in the bible. I view the bible as esoteric. I really just focus on my self improvement.
Totally agree on the "that's just semantics" thing. I majored in philosophy in college(yes, seriously), and I quickly realized that so much of philosophy is bogged down, or even completely a problem of, semantics(definitions, usages, the imprecise and imperfect nature of our languages and general ability to get our point across, etc.)
I swear sometimes I feel like 90% of what people refer to as "philosophy", or the arguments and debates that are put forth/go on, the claims made, etc. would disappear completely if we had a "perfect" language, and a way to "perfectly" communicate/articulate what it is one is thinking.
A lady said that phrase to me recently. But she was very very religious, into relics, hands on, spiritual leaders etc
Spiritual for me, isn't something I cling to, it's an open ended wondering regarding the many unusual experiences I've have that science and orthodox religions can't explain. Matt can imagine and assume all he likes, but like me and so many others, he doesn't know.
“Spiritual” is just “the unexplained”, then. Like lightning in the past. So what makes you think that we won’t be able to explain them in the future? What is unexplainable about them now, even?
@@Kevorama0205 Coming from an open minded perspective, let me know if either of y’all find proof to validate either argument.
Everyone’s beliefs are personal so no hate. At the end of the day nobody can explain why we all popped up one day in a seemingly infinite universe. Mind boggling.
@@Datkrazyfoo the point is that the default position would be I don't know why that happened if you're claimming it's something supernatural I expect you to have enough of a reason to do so.
It's possible that science can, or may one day be able to, explain experiences you've had that you don't understand.
@@giorgosab9986 but i dont KNOW, i just believe it to be so. My justification for believing is my experience. Pretty sure the root word for expert is experience. How we come to know is through making sense of the experiences we have.
i disagree with you on this. Something exists. It certainly doesn't match the "God" profile. It seems to suggest that we are each and all gods, and we are endowed with testable, therefore provable powers. I tested it so I proved it to myself. So what you call supernatural, I call natural. If I can mentally choose to effect a specific desired outcome, then it's a natural power, not a supernatural power. It works whether you believe in it or not. That doesn't mean that any god is involved. Quite the opposite. To me, spiritual means non-physical - like thought.
The word spirit comes from the word spiritus which mean breath, so all spiritually is about is breathing techniques, being healthy, care for every being, and loving and taking care of yourself in my opinion. All this Ghost/God/Demons stuff is just so called “spiritual” people believing in religious stuff but don’t want to identify with being religious. But myself I really don’t identify my self but if I did I am an atheist who practices stuff like meditation, getting nature, eating plant based/heathy, and get sun, which is backed by evidence.
Word of advice: to the uninformed the word "atheist" still carries a negative connotation. I tell people I'm a "non-theist," that way they get the idea strongly but they did not hear the "a word."
Another "a word" that I can use is, I tell people I'm an "aweist," that is, I look up at the night sky and I'm awed by the complexity, depth and beauty of nature and the cosmos.
The biological and evolutionary epic is god.
I refused to use the atheist label for years because I thought it was closing the door on the idea of the supernatural. I called myself agnostic because...I didn't know if there was a god or not. I still don't. I'm unsure if it can even be determined if the existence of a godlike being is even possible. I don't think it's possible, but I don't *know*. But I wasn't aware of the distinction between Gnosticism and Theism, so I thought calling myself Atheist was being just as closed-minded, refusing to accept evidence if it ever turned up. Now I'm comfortable saying I'm an agnostic atheist because I know what that means - I don't believe, but if anything concrete actually shows up, I'll look at it with as little bias as possible and examine it honestly. Matt, I thank your friend Aron Ra for explaining the difference to me, so that I understood I was resisting a false label all this time.
Hey man, I wanna engage you on this one but before that, look up the word ''Zangbeto" on youtube and tell me if what you see is fake..
Nicely put!
Sometimes, when we ask those people what exactly do they mean by "spirituality", they will say that it's all about *"energy"* ... and once again we've entered the realm of the word game! What energy is that? They wont say. They'll talk about positive and negative energy, spritual energy, and all things "energy"!! It's another woo word that sounds cool, but means nothing. In science, we must always explain what we mean by "energy", how to measure it, etc. But spiritualists (and those so called spirit science gurus) will just throw the word around in order to sound smart.
Excellent, Matt. Thank you for what you do.
No more labels!
I think that's the best way to go.
I used to be highly against the term spiritual, but now, I take more of a Sam Harris view of it. Nothing magical or religious. I just think it has to do with the embodiment of wanting to become a better person. For instance, I am learning about chakras out of pure curiosity (shut up, I know. hippie bullshit, right..) but im only taking out of it what I see useful. I know they are not scientific and cant physically be found in the body, but they almost operate as a "7 levels of success" kinda thing. it just tells you what you could focus on to improve yourself.
Spirituality has for the most part gone hand in hand with religion and belief in souls, god, afterlife, ect.. but it is my new opinion that its possible to salvage it for purely good purposes. No dogma, no irrational beliefs, no contradiction with naturalism.
I feel the same way. For me spirituality is just connecting and being in harmony with all living things. I guess you could say I’m a humanist and focus on more rational ways to solve human issues. But I think if we take care of ourselves, one another and have a positive mindset, then it could drastically improve our lifestyles and health as well. I value life and truth. I don’t actually believe in spirits, the universe as a conscious force, separate dimensions, the supernatural, etc. For me it’s just recognizing your emotions and living a fulfilling life. I just find ways to appreciate the beauty within a natural universe. Like in art, music and love. There of course needs to be evidence before I believe it. I also rely solely on science to explain things. Maybe spirituality isn’t the right word, or there could be other ways to describe it. I can definitely understand Matt’s perspective on this.
Love it! Great lecture.
Thanks 4 the thumbs up,I knew you guys understood.
VERY good! Thank you, Matt!
I just saw this, and I heartily agree that we as a species need to cast off the mantle of spiritual traditionalism and grasp the universe realistically and rationally.
"I'm not religious but I'm spiritual"
From my experience this usually indicates that the person is willing to believe ideas without good evidence, usually based on feeling or from personal testimony alone. Things such as; star signs, ghosts, the 'spirit', karma, witch-craft, alternative medicine, various conspiracies, etc. It's usually a mishmash of 'beliefs' that many religious lay people tend to fold into their world view also. These people tend not to have a particularly strong understanding of or trust in Science, and view it as no more of an authority on explaining reality than their personal 'faith' in an idea or what their friends said. They form their world view from on a combination of what they were told, their personal feelings, confirmation bias, scientific ignorance and personal incredulity
For me is a form of hypocrisy mixed with weakness. If you are atheist, fine. You get to live your life without any religious rules, but you as well don't depend on the divine, you don't get that comfort. Now if you are religious, you get the comfort of feeling protected and having a meaning and all that, but you have more rules to abide to. Now the spiritual but not religious people, are the ones who want to have the best of the two worlds without having none of the bad.
My experience is it means the person wants to believe a god exists, but doesn't want to be bothered with any sort of religious trappings, such as having to take time to go to the church/temple/mosque/synagogue.
Well I don't belive in Christianity I am a hindu and and Hinduism is all about sprituality it contains star signs and all what yall Christians consider as "sin"..I don't hate jesus I hate bible I love being a hindu
You know I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that everything supernatural does "Exist" and that it is possible that Matt could agree with my argument 100%, However its pretty damned unlikely that anyone of a superstitious persuasion would ever use my argument. I also suspect that anyone who noticed the quotation marks I used around the word "Exist" have probably figured out how my argument would work, and would conclude that having such a discussion would just waste everyone's time.
Spirituality is based on love not fear, throughout religion there is lots of fear. Fear of the consequences of your action, fear of what might happen after your die if you don't live life accordingly. With spirituality there is love and it encourages you to focus all your energy only of the good and to act based on love, religion tells you the truth spirituality let's you discover it. Religion separates, spirituality unites. In this world there are many religions and they preach that their story is the right story, spirituality sees truth in all of them and unites them becuase the truth is the same for all despite our differences. It focuses on the devine message they share not the differences. Instead of talking about punishment and threats of hell spirituality only talks about karma. Walk your own path. Conscousiness creates reality. Perception of the external world might just be a reflection of the inner world, what ever your belief are, that's what you'll only see in your reality. We create our own realities based on our beliefs.
I would say I'm spiritual (based on my own experiences). I believe in soul, ghosts, telepathy.. but I would never try to convince other people about it..because it's not possible.
Okay so if you can't justify those things to others, why do you think you've justified them to yourself
Uh....yeah...."I don't like organized religion because they try to explain what can't be explained but"I"know how unexplainable it is enough to tell them how off they are. Because I'm spiritually in tuned."
Matt Wood For me, there are things that have happened in my life and my families life that i cannot explain by rational means, such as my mother having "preminitions" that came to pass in detail and saved my brothers life, me and my family all seeing dark figures, or "spirit" figures, at seperate, or the same time, and all describing the same things, etc. So i consider myself a spiritual person, but I'm not a christian. plus, christianity gave me ptsd.
I wonder if Matt realizes that the "spiritual but not religious" group is the fastest growing demographic in western culture, growing even quicker than the agnostic/atheist/"nones" group. And Matt overlooked that the very backbone of the "spiritual but not religious" view is the Perennial philosophy which Matt never even discussed.
www.embodiedphilosophy.com/issue/perennial-philosophy-8/
The religions i know of abide in the main in the two extreme forms of thinking: extreme love vs extreme hate, torture vs ever lasting joy, wars vs peace, believing vs knowing, solving problems in a humane ways vs tossing people alive into a burning furnace to die an extreme form of death/etc.
"The spiritual but not religious" can't be grouped together any more than "non-believers" or "the religious" can be grouped together. It's somewhat understandable as so much stuff like "rendezvousing with spaceships behind the coming comet" gets self-reported as "spiritual." Beware establishing bias based on self-reported kookiness.
When I was coming out of religion, I transitioned to what I thought of as spiritualism, but I later understood that was just me celebrating my freedom of confined thought, and felt elevated in response to what I thought was a higher power having ultimately revealed this to me. Turns out I just wasn't giving myself credit for coming to realizations. Now, this concept of spiritualism, to me, is just a confused, emotional responsive, pseudoscientific idea of better understanding things. Not a higher being of any kind.
Do you consider seeking a higher consciousness and enlightenment as being spiritual?
Very well argued
"Spiritual" means a deeper feeling of personal connection with nature or the cosmos. You do not need to believe in any God (I am actually my own variety of a deist) or seperate soul. I think almost everyone is spiritual whether they realize it or not. It is part of who we are. I recommend that anyone who ridicules the idea read "Waking Up" by Sam Harris or "The God Gene" by Dean Hamer.
Deeper than ordinary/everyday experience. Read "Waking Up" by Sam Harris.
Native Centre Idiomas A connection can constitute as a reference for all of us being stardust that originated from the primordial stew that created the universe. We all share molecules from that event and are subject to the constant flux of of natural cycles taking place within the cosmos. We are all a multitude of molecular components constantly recycling itself while perceiving itself consciously. The Buddhist call this "not self" as there is no inherent existence, we create it by giving reducible conceptual essences to things.Saying that one thing is any more good or bad than the other, not because it is inherently true but because from a subjective standpoint what we consider it to be makes it so. We would like think that we lead our own lives yet our brain is influenced by internal/external stimuli without our conscious awareness of it(unless you're an adept meditator, psychologist,neuroscientist). There are no boundaries between the self and the universe and our notion of reality is but an illusion. This can be considered very spiritual indeed.
Native Centre Idiomas is that not just giving spirituality a prescription based on post hoc historical connotations of it? No worse than labeling or generalizing how and atheist,theist,or agnostic should think or be. From my subjective standpoint I see no reason as to why biological systems cannot be used as conduits for a very spiritual experience. From a neurological standpoint enlightenment is a real thing. Is that not in it's own way a spiritual experience? Yet we try to reduce it completely to it's biological premise and not the affects of such perceptions on the individuals themselves.Why does spirituality have to be this fixed thing? This universe is strange is it not? Extra dimensions, quantum entanglement, the Higgs Boson, thermodynamics, hell the fact the we are even experiencing this. I know nothing except for that I am ignorant.
Anthony Greico i not only read 'Waking up' but saw him speak TWICE on his promotional tour. I just went through it last night looking for anytbing that supports your claim(s). Also your definitions. Can you direct me to the parts that support your claim/position on 'spirituality'?
You are assuming “spirit” has to be defined as a ghostly thing that leaves body at death. You do not have to believe in such an idea to be spiritual. The Hebrew word for the soul is “neshama,” which is word for our human sense of being/life. The word does not seem to have anything to do with “soul” as in something that allows an individual to exist after physical death.
A limited concept of an infinite being remains ever a limited concept.
Matt . Glad I discovered you in the last week or two. You make life so easy for most of us in the process of evolving from the craziness and stupidity called Religion.
When I discovered you and experienced how far ahead of me I believe you are, I immediately thought that I needed to Google " Spiritual but not Religious" since in my judgement and based on some of your works experienced , I realized that there will be an excellent chance that you will have encountered this trend you referred to . Vow for your magnificent energy and application. This work and all the other work you guys do in US is so precious for the future of our species and the planet. I can hardly believe that you and your adversaries belong to the same species.
Matt, you guys clearly have an abundance of truth that surrounds you with wisdom and integrity . It's much easier to trust you guys than believers. Obviously and objectively so but still realising that in truth and true to our method and lifestyle, trust and respect still has to be earned and no one should get a free pass.
I am of the view that we should try to always positively impact society with our superior skills and wisdom .
To me its obvious that very bad people exploited our relative ignorance and dysfunctionality when they manipulated society to drag us into neverending "wars-for-prophets" and what not only because we knew so much less before.
It is clear to me that Spiritual but not religious is religion back-paddling under pressure of rationality spearheaded by Atheist Activism. Suddenly they and mainly their enslaving institutions do no longer enjoy being mocked and to look ridiculous and stupid. They have given up on religion as an embarrassment that risk God's safety. God will of necessity need protection which should make us realise that our adversaries can be very dangerous people. They kill each other in wars ,with God apparently arming both sides - not unlike the case when US materially supported both Iraq and Iran in war.
Spirituality is only a temporary safe zone for religion and Theism.
Some groups of organized religion will, I predict, support the concepts of "African Spirituality" in great numbers even though the teachings of Dr Hagins is accepted and Jesus's pivotal place in Christianity is given up "as based on mythology". This may give some indication that Dr Hagin and his followers are prepared to move quiet a bit "to the radical left" but most importantly they are still clinging to their reliance on God for all their fundamentals in life.
They are actually in my view not dealing with African Spirituality, I must caution. In recent days I tried to understand them and their movement to the left as well as to see how they differ from African Spirituality as practised elsewhere.
I agree that loose standing, Spirituality is what it is. To our disadvantage in Africa is that not much to nothing of the rules of African Spirituality had been codified. Therefore it's demise and its overthrowing in Africa by stupidity and irrationality called religion. It seems as if there were/are still?various strains of African Spirituality on the Continent. Its completely unlike religion in its intent, function, implimenting and application. Much propaganda had been easily spread about it from as soon as Christian Ministries started popping up in Africa to mentally colonize our predecessors and the masses to this day.
What makes me say that its unlike Religion?
Most importantly there is no God nor anyone to worship in African Spirituality.
Special emphasis was always placed on truths about what worked out in the past in order to solve problems in the present and for the future. Therefore our regular consulting of our predecessors/ ancestors for their "guidance" to solve problems was fundamental to how society operated. The prominence of the word "guidance" against the background that there was no written code, allowed Colonialists to easily spread their propaganda for our detractors to falsely assume from their base of ignorance that there must of necessity be a God and that when Africans held their rituals to connect with their forebearers on whose wisdoms and experiences they counted on , then the ignorant concluded that we must have worshipped our forebearers. You know all about these false assumptions and beliefs in favour of the notion that a God must of necessity just be made to exist.
No . Guidance sought was all about Education, Education and Education as well as drawing from all past proven truths and wisdoms society was able to rely on.
Families and society put their collective knowledge and experiences together to be guided by. We specifically "consulted " our ancestors , and did not worship them .
Participants in African Spirituality from the strain I learned more about in recent day can therefore be considered Atheists and rational.
Colonialists just had to attack African Spirituality first before they were able to enslave the masses and steal from us.
Incidentally elections are won and undeclared wars for profit (prophets) are continued neverendingly by US when false consents are obtained therefore from a semi comatosed living dead populace that find higher value in things believed to be true rather than that they be true. Our enemy ( of man) is busy reducing your consciousness in so many ways for purposes of that and similar kinds of manipulation "believers were created to be deceived by."
Essentially therefore the real irrational top dog enemies of man responsible for this mayhem on the planet for so long are now obviously inverting our real realities so much with fake corporate journalism that pushing back ever harder against their best longterm/ longtime asset is a no brainer.
It will be wonderful to obtain some feedback from our family of Atheists that need to push back with our superior skills, wisdom ,creativity, norms, consciousness and so much more we have to offer our fellow man than God has on offer.
Spiritual but not religious seems to = decentralized religion.
Spirituality is just a discovery of consciousness , not spirit no gods. Nothing your awareness is invisible that’s why we call it spiritual.
It seems that it takes a lot of personal courage to say that you Atheist in America.
@ari1234a It takes a lot of personal courage in situations, such as to very religious family or friends, or if you’re a politician in at least some cases. In other cases, it takes no coursge, because you’re in an atheist/non-significantly religious family or circle of friends or community.
He does not know what spirituality means...which is nothing to do with religion or beliving in god...is something much deeper ...it is enjoying the beauty of life the best we can...
"it is enjoying the beauty of life the best we can..."
THAT is something deeper than religion or belief in a god?
Love ur break down because I have a lot of friends who are not Christian but their not Atheist either so they call themselves spiritual or they subscribe to spirituality. But I'm an Atheist so we kinda fall out with each other alot lol
What about Buddhist? They don't consider themselves a religion but spiritual. So I think some atheist or agnostics are possibily eluding to the same concept as Buddhist do as the concept of enlightenment. So some would say spiritual over saying enlightenment, when some might mean that but don't really know it or understand it. Probably also a reason a good amount of people who leave thier faith will look at/to Buddhism to see how they function without a god concept and what they view as "spiritual" which could shape a new or alternative view of the concept of the word "spiritual".
Side note: some would argue Buddhism is a form of trying to understand our consciousness and how to "enhance" the conscious perception of the world and the mind/brain. They focus and train the mind in other ways then people normally do to try and have a 'higher' understanding. The more neuroscience you learn the more fasinating the brain/mind work.
Who is they?
I take spiritual to mean - the belief and appeal to forces which are beyond the material world. It is as unjustified as theism.
6:22. "Who knows what spirituality means? I don't"
Perhaps you should have spent some time actually studying spirituality without judging it. You also overgeneralize us by assigning us values we don't homogeneously share. Modern spirituality encourages people to find their own path.
How I was taught spirituality was from Kundalini yoga (inspired by Sikhism). Spirituality means to love yourself but to not live for yourself. The most effective way to do this is to tap into a metaphysical realm where values such as compassion, love, and empathy is the absolute power. In this realm, creator and creation are one. This is the core of my spirituality.
Unlike what you stated in your video, we ARE comfortable with mysteries and we admit we don't know what we don't do. We are perfectly okay with that. When I asked my teacher what he thought of afterlife, "I don't know. I don't care. This is where I am focused on. This life right here, right now is heaven or hell. Your values and actions and thoughts determine what is heaven or hell"
"Perhaps you should have spent some time actually studying spirituality without judging it."
It isn't possible to study spirituality. All we can study are people who claim to be spiritual.
@Dark Star as an atheist you are not comfortable not knowing? What more do you know by not believing in God? Think about that...
Is "I don't know" a middle ground?
Manuel Lynch
l do believe it is. However, it's not a reason to remain ignorant of a topic that may interest you.
Personally, l live in this place in this time. I'd much rather spend my time learning what l can know. I've had quite enough of the unknowables. l gave them up when l gave up my faith.
I don't know can be equivalent to "there's not enough info/data to decide" and/or around the middle of the beleif/level of convinced spectrum, akin to a 50% probability/ 50% level of confidence in the claim. Many concepts aren't a dichotomy but rather a spectrum. There's a spectrum of belief, a spectrum in political ideologies, ect.
It's not. Saying I don't know is not a position it's simply a state of knowledge.
It could be and in all actuality we are not designed to know everything, at the same time ,to the same degree, about everything. I think it is fair to say that is one reason why we are different and communicate amongst our differences. But if the debaters had the same honesty and or insight we probably would get closer to understanding the root of it all for effective answers and solutions.
It's not a middle ground, it's not a position at all. It doesn't make sense to have a position on something that someone knows nothing about. Which is when "I don't know" applies.
I don't agree with Matt here if being spiritual doesn't necessarily mean you believe there is something behind existence. instead if it only means you're open to all the possiblities then I don't see where the problem is here. it's much like saying I don't know but I am welling to seek the truth with an absolute openess. however I do agree with Matt if being spiritual entails all sorts of beliefs and preassumptions about existence.
Interesting. But apparently some psychologists say we are born to believe in something spiritual it offers some sort of brain soothing and makes people feel good about somethings. Humans are not necessarily rational. Even in Maslow's hierarchy of needs there is a need in which people seek self-actualisation, which involves things to do with spirituality.
If "atheist" is a label, then I'll gladly wear it with pride. Heck, why stop there? Throw the "anti-religious" label in there while you're at it. I'll wear that with pride as well.
Spirituality is this comforting feeling that our existence is eternal. If souls were a part of our being, then when did they become a part of our evolution? When does it become a part of our development before birth? How does the soul get there? Where did it come from? Even at a restful state, the human brain consumes roughly 20% of the body's total energy. If consciosuness isn't a result of complex biological processes, then why do our brains require such vast resources?
Maybe it's just me, but I find the idea of eternity terrifying, I don't know what comfort people find in it.
g singh That’s an opinion not an answer.
g singh What was your experience? Honestly curious.
@Just a guy with a turban Okay, let's just say that I am wrong, fine, I'm completely okay with that. However, without the falsifiable evidence to prove otherwise, then what reason do I have to take your word on it?
@Just a guy with a turban Wouldn't DMT be much more effective in this case?
Thank you Matt so eloquently said as usual
Whoa... Matt, huge thanks for this video.
Fresh and a new way of acting and thinking in a responsible way! Let these words being heard by our fellow citizins!
matt is a hurt soul. he doesn't realize he's using the spirit to manifest all of the talking points he has about spirituality in this video. bet he never even attempted to meditate before. purely stuck in materialistic land.
You are talking pure woo.
I'm a spiritual Atheist. I believe in the Universe, crystal's, astrology, hope and karma. And as an atheist I just lack a belief in god(s). I don't believe in the supernatural, I don't believe we have a soul (I use to now I don't), Our body isn't eternal, and after we die...We just die.Yep that's what I believe
I don’t know how karma can exist when people like Henry Kissinger live to almost 100 and are revered
We don't believe,we know.I've been there and many others.just because Matt hasn't seen the mystery doesn't mean it's not true,he just doesn't know how to get there.but when he does he will be talking another tune.i do not feel it,I have left my body through meditation. Obviously if people say they feel it means they have not seen it.its not a feeling it's knowing when you leave your vessel. Jim Carrey has seen it.you can't talk when you leave your body,you speak through telepathy.they speak without there mouths moving.you can hear without listening.i wish he experience what I have experienced.he has no idea how wonderful it really is.he would be alone with himself everyday if he only knew.david Icke experienced it to,you should look him up on RUclips and Jordan Maxwell.its fine that he doesn't believe but it doesn't mean it's not true.he has his opinion but he shouldn't make it a fact.but what he says about Christians religion is right on.
Veronica Stefano Thanks for presenting no evidence and just asserting that you're right. You've made my point for me.
I've been using spirituality to refer to things like Buddhist principles and the pineal gland
I use it for higher consciousness within.
Everybody defines spirituality different. We need more words.
"You either believe or you don't". How does implicit bias factor into this? People believe that they don't believe something when they do believe it TO SOME DEGREE. This would seem to indicate that belief isn't binary. What is the transition period between holding a belief and not holding a belief?
great video!!
ayy
***** ayyyyy
Matt proclaims at 22:30 that it's not good communication to use the word "god" with a group of people who have widely differing views on what that word means.
I presume that Matt will never again use the word "theory" in conversation, speech or writing ... since the word "theory" has widely different meanings in different contexts. His attempts to differentiate between "theory" in secular versus scientific settings are clearly an example of poor communication, according to his own logic.
Rule of Matt - if a word has become distorted and misunderstood in common parlance, you MUST give up on trying to correct the misunderstanding of the use of that word. You MUST stop using that word immediately.
Booo
I'm tired of people on here playing the game of semantics. For example, if you look through some the comments, people will say "what do you mean by connection?, you have any proof?" Asking that question is pointless because you are asking proof about a subjective feeling. You can "feel" a connection to the cosmos without extrapolating data. I'm an agnostic and a skeptic myself, but I don't think that you have to be as petty as to ask for proof for a subjective experience. It's ridiculous and to ask for evidence of a spiritual feeling is pointless.
gaige smith The evidence is not for the existence a feeling, we wouldn't deny that, it's what the spiritualist thinks his experience is proof of.
I for one am perfectly willing to believe that people have feelings..
However there is no reason for anyone else to take those personal feelings and accept them as evidence for a claim, without external verification.
I have a feeling, and you might agree, people who keep asking for proof for everything need to pick their battles better.
I think i could work on picking my battles better too.
while it is true that there were understandings some of our ancestors had, many if not most of them have been relearned or discovered again. this doesn't mean that it's evidence of other dimensional beings beyond our physical world
So what do atheists think about the religious but not spiritual? There are people who like the idea of having a place to experience a sense of reverence for life, community introspection, and explore ideas about having a good person, but who find the teachings in most religions a little too unbelievable?
#furgleburgle bullshite argument
Thanks, Matt D
Fantastic talk, here- per usual👌
Great talk...Thought provoking content as usual Matt; but how do I know I'm not just a brain in a vat? (just kidding!).
You don't know you're not just a brain in a vat. And that's that: you don't know. But there's some reason I can never remember why believing in God could, should, or would help you gain that knowledge and become sure you're not a brain in a vat. I swear I have heard the arguments many times. They just don't stick because they make no sense.
The man/woman of logic who wants evidence or justification to anything will criticize those who can’t explain themselves; it’s either that or they’ll be lead to disappointment. I myself tend to be a person of logic, so I understand the argument of wanting evidence, but the thing here that I’ve come to realize is that for some people, there’s just so much that the human brain can understand and process. I myself used to be religious and also tried being spiritual at a time, so a lot of what the speaker is saying is something that I can understand, but I have my own disagreements. From my perspective at least, you can either continually search and argue with other people or just learn to accept what can’t be shown or explained through evidence. We all have our own definitions of what’s real or tangible and I’m okay with that. My definition of what’s real however is based on what I can actually see, feel and understand with my own senses and logic. If I come across something I can’t understand, I have two options; argue/rationalize why I believe I’m right or just work on being more aware and understanding.
I'm interested to know if this atheist, whom I greatly respect and enjoy listening to, and agree with most of the time, has ever used DMT. It can be a life-changing and reality shattering experience for any human that at the very least, raises questions about our understanding of consciousness and reality. Why is a DMT breakthrough experience so entirely profound and often so overtly spiritual it's undeniable? why does the experience often provide paradigm shattering universal wisdom? Why do we apparently meet hyper-intelligent beings that are beyond imagination? Why are they so convincingly real, and why does the experience often feel "more real than reality", leaving people with an undeniable sense that waking reality is an illusion (albeit a very persistent one ;)? Why are such profound, dramatic, and deeply meaningful immersive experiences possible without directly affecting ones cognitive awareness (No feeling of intoxication or distortion)?
Because acid drops the hairdryer of the brain into the bathtub of electrochemical chaos.
Excellent address. (Have you ever been to a Grateful Dead show?)
Great talk and always so informative. I am guilty of using the spiritual label just to get religious people to lay off me about religion.
thank you so much
How is this a debate?
I don't think you can necessarily separate spirituality and religious belief. It's inevitable that one will lead to the other. Simply put, spirituality is religious in concept, and vice versa.
You can be spiritual and not religious. For example, you can feel as if all life is connected or we have an inner spirit that lives on after we die without ever adhering to any religion (which implies doctrine, rules for living, believing in talking snake stories and so forth).
Yes, you have a point, but only to a degree. Prehistoric man's "spirituality", was based on superstition, ignorance, and fear, and is the very basis, and seed of religion and religious belief. Just as we can say the egg came before the chicken, we can say spirituality came before religion. But, we can not separate, in either case, one from the other.
Very good point, but specious at best. Spirituality connotes religious sentiment. The search for the sacred, the divine in the earthly. Whether one follows a printed word or an inner voice, the concepts are complementary, the objectives parallel in their course. The notion of the spirit (spirituality) itself, is religious by its very nature. Its aspects supernatural, spectral, and not based in evidence.
You totally misconstrued the point I made. Your argument regarding the chicken and the egg is totally non sequitur. Your response regarding different "types" of spiritual experiences, require a notion, a belief, in the spiritual, a spirit, a religious predisposition. To use your words, "You're simply wrong on both counts".
+smax26 "You can be spiritual and not religious. For example, you can feel as if all life is connected or we have an inner spirit that lives on after we die without ever adhering to any religion (which implies doctrine, rules for living, believing in talking snake stories and so forth)."
I'm getting the idea that spirituality separated from religion is more a personal thing that's not subject to dogma and other crap that religion forms. What would happen if someone wrote down their spirituality and then other people started to follow the same thing?
P.S. God dammit, RUclips is screwing with commenting systems again.
Arguing right now with aron ra on a similar subject
He thinks you only have a religion if it falls in line with a form of theism - he said “religion has to have a belief in the supernatural afterlife” and I said “you’re defining religion in such a narrow way to avoid claiming to have one”
He then says “you’re saying my lack of religion is a religion” 😂
No matter how many times I’ve tried explaining to him “a religion isn’t limited to belief in the afterlife” 😅 the egomaniac then says “Taoism doesn’t count because some people say it isn’t a religion” 😂