The rule of thirds is a good teaching tool when teaching composition, but once one has "mastered" the basics of composition and it shows in their work, then it can be broken. As one photographer said to me, once you know the rules, then you know when you can BREAK them. The rule of thirds doesn't always work (for example, if you're looking for symmetry in a phtoograph or certain patterns, or you want to take a picture of a tunnel with a light at the end of it... then the rule of thirds doesn't really work although you can use the ROT guides to center your frame). As with most things in photography, there is a time and place for things, and then there isn't and it's good to know what type of composition method (whether it's the rule of thirds, golden ratio, or some other technique) is appropriate). At the end of the day, you just want some sort of balance, whether that fits within a composition technique or not. I think as long as you have an interesting subject, the lighting is appropriate, and there is "balance" within the frame, that's all you need. You don't always have to follow the composition rules to a T.
Mark, I have never thought of the “Rule of Thirds” as a rule, but rather as a suggestion or starting point. If one of the 1/3 lines or intersections gives me the most interesting compositional place to put my subject, then I’m fine with that. However, if another composition is more dynamic and interesting, then that is what I choose. And that is how I explain this and other compositional suggestions to others. It felt like you were reaching a little bit to create content by suggesting that we should kill the rule of thirds. That said, I appreciate your channel and your guidance, in general.
Great video Mark! Great tips. I think the problem people, and myself, have with the rule of thirds is forgetting to add a counter balance to the opposite third of the frame making it visually unbalanced. With all that “empty space” on that part, the composition just feels off.
Yes, many times there is a huge amount of dead space in a rule of thirds (ROT) cropped image. But there are many images that work well with it. You are a photographer, so you instinctively look for particular methods employed, but the average viewer doesn’t recognize the tool employed. As a photographer trained in art photography, I don’t always use ROT or Golden Ratio. I experiment with the placement of the subject to create the visual aspects to pull the viewer into the image. I don’t want someone to view it, say that it’s nice, and then more along. I want to pull them into the image and have an experience. It’s not always going to happen, but always following the rules is not going to allow for much imagination or artistry. You have a great channel Mark, and I respect your expertise.
I think both the rule of 3rds and golden ratio techniques are equally as useful. It all depends on your subject and personal preference. At the end of the day, photography is an art form, and art is entirely subjective.
Mark, I appreciate your video on this important topic. I agree that the Rule of Thirds (ROT) is an over-used compositional concept. It works when it works, but it stands out as undesirable when it is overused, as in "Oh, ROT that is distracting." When Center-Weighting is not enough, I tend to use Off-Center-Weighting with a strong preference for the Golden Ratio Grid approach. Generally, at the decisive moment, I'll focus with Center-Weighting for my main object, then move the camera slightly off-center, while keeping the Golden Ratio Grid in mind. When post-processing, I'll crop according to the needs of my composition. Thank you for bucking the ROT trend and showing what is, for many of us, a better way of composing great photos.
Congratulations winners! Mark, I've been using your previous Rule of Thirds video as a basis for my compositions for about a year now, I think. This was a great refresher. Thanks for posting it!
A good balanced approach Mark. Those rules are meant to be broken! Ken Duncan - Australia's most internationally sucessful Australian landscape photographer for many decades, once told a story of how a judge was looking at one of his images in a gallery said that "This photograph is not following the rules but the photograph still works" LOL!! The person didn't know Ken and Ken replied..... I'm glad the photographer (KEN) didn't know the rule the hey? LOL!!!!
Yes. Been using that same overlay for years for the same reason, the rule of thirds seems to leave just too much empty space in areas where I want things to be!
Another helpful video. I agree that the Rule of Thirds is over-used. I was in a FB group where it was promoted heavily, and I pushed back for folks to not get locked into that as their only compositional guide. So many had no idea of the O shortcut in LR to toggle through the other options.
Sometimes with the these "rules", it seems that we compose with what "feels" right (considering the weight and balance of all the components of the picture) and then find the overlay that fits it most closely. Are most of these "rules" just made up to fill someone's curriculum?
The problem with "Rule of Thirds" is the very first word and you pointed it out very clearly, everyone does it. I bet if it was called something else it wouldn't be used as often. Even words like "golden" I think have the potential for abuse. Most don't realize that these are tools to be used and even less (talking more so for the amateurs) fully understand why one is used. For me, I've found the best way to learn this is to take a scene, crop it different ways without guides until I think the image is satisfying. Then, apply the grids. I've learned quite a bit that way and still have more to learn. Love these videos.
Good video, I started the video very skeptical, but in the end I totally understand and agree now. I don't think my camera shows anything other than rule of thirds, but can estimate it easily enough.
I think the key takeaway is to not stick to any particular rule when composing images. I use the rule of thirds, rule of fourths, rule of fifths, golden ratio, centered subject and variations on all of them. The key is to create a balanced image, I think. Including dead space, in order to achieve the correct ratio, is not the answer, in my opinion.
Good video Mark. Think the rule of thirds has unintentionally too often become my default for composing a landscape photograph (especially with horizons), so need to be more mindful of pushing my subject inward. Or better yet, maybe take that extra shot or two where I just push against the rules and try something completely different!
These tips are extremely helpful. To me, the golden ratio composition feels much more dynamic. I admit I've fallen into the habit of using the rule of thirds technique for quite some time, and I feel that the general composition of my photos has become a bit too predictable. I'm excited to play around with these suggestions going forward!
Visited OBX years ago before getting into photography, it was November and cold, but zero crowds. I would like to go back one day and capture the lighthouses. Great video content Mark, plenty of think about here.
Great points you make there... I would like to add something: We are spoilt with this 60 megapixel reality that we live in now. But only ten years ago, we were proud of shots that were a fraction of that. So why not zoom out a bit, and crop later. To a square format... Portrait... Landscape... Cameras are SO good nowadays....
Great video today! I found it very helpful. I have fallen into the habit of overusing the rule of thirds. I will definitely try changing it up more! Thanks, Mark.👍🏻
As a newbie I've been applying the rule of third but moving my feet to make more dynamic shots if that makes sense. Great points here and when you said you'd leave that bit when you cropped the rock pic, I knew exactly what "because I like that" means and my wife says I make that same face lol!
Hi Mark, another great video. I really enjoyed that subtle difference between the rules of thirds and the golden rule. For such a small difference, there was an immediate visual difference. I've always struggled with my landscape photography to get the right balance for the scene and for the message I want to get across. I'm going to give the golden rule a whirl in some of my existing images to see if I can bring that bit of extra life into some of them. Thanks Mark, have a good one. Paul, Sheffield, UK.
Hi Mark, I live in Colorado and am wondering where your upcoming Colorado workshop will be held? I live at the base of the Sangre de Christo mountaind near the town of Westcliffe, I never miss your videos, Steve
I stopped thinking about the rule of thirds. I even forgot to turn the overlay on in my a7 IV when I bought it. I compose however I want, yet still keeping track of not having too much dead space that doesn't contribute to the image or overlapping subjects that shouldn't overlap or leaving too much or too little space between subjects. Using leading lines where it feels right or stacking elements where it feels right (like a telephoto woodland scene or a stack of mountains into the deep atmosphere). It's good to learn why things work a certain way and using some of these guidance tips like the rule of thirds, the golden ratio, leading lines and the foreground-midground-background stack to create depth are all good things. But so is back-lighting your subjects, using flat light when it works or having nice golden directional light other times. There are so many aspects to composition.
Interesting discussion Mark. I wonder if the Golden rule was the universally accepted composition tool if we would be decrying the slavish adherence to that and suggesting the rule of thirds as an alternative. Surely it's more about moving the subject off centre to create tension in the image. How far off centre depends upon the overall balance in the image (light, secondary subjects, leading lines, neutral space... all the other elements of composition). The various rules are surely more like guides to what often works well, but to be varied as required by individual circumstances.
This is my take on it as well. The rule of thirds is not a hard and fast rule. It is a technique that allows for compositions other than center weighted to create some artistic value. But every scene must be evaluated and adjusted. I always viewed the rule of thirds as a starting point anyway.
Another thing to keep in mind is where we decide to position our compositional lines. When I crop my portrait photos, I don't put my rule of thirds line in the center of the face, I offset it over an eye, and which line over which eye can make a big difference. For example, when you cropped the Golden Gate you chose to put the right line in the middle of the bridge, whereas is you had pushed the right line over to the right side, your composition would be much closer to what you ended up with with the golden ratio. Just another thing to keep in mind; where we choose to line things up on our subject. Great video Mark!
My technique is start out with the rule of thirds and then adjust from there. Sometimes, the rule of thirds is a perfect solution, but I come to that conclusion only after trying other solutions, coming back to the rule of thirds, or finding another way. The best bet is to acquire enough experience with cropping so that it becomes intuitive. Settling on a standard place to start and then following intuitive hunches serves me well.
Hi Mark. Awesome lesson on rule of thirds and golden rule of thirds. I am guilty of using the the rule of thirds more than I probably should. I am definitely going to try this on my photos. My moto is to "get better one photo at a time" and your instructions have helped me on this journey. Keep the videos coming.
Thanks for sharing. An interesting idea, but to me it's semantics. I don't apply TROT precisely and seek to position exactly, just approximately until it feels about right. It all depends on what image elements you are dealing with. Also when you referenced examples like your 'Golden Gate Bridge' you weren't doing so either, thus IMO trying too hard to make your point. In 'thirds' you moved RHS of tower exactly on the line. Yet for 'golden ratio' you moved centre part of Tower to the line, thus diminishing the difference. To my eye both were broadly similar, so no real appreciable difference. I really take your thesis to be TROT is getting overused, so in order for your work to stand apart (a good thing) we need to look beyond the basics. I'd argue that the 'golden ratio' plus 'triangulation' with a degree of 'leading lines' makes more sense - especially where applied generally (ie with judged artistic vision) rather than precisely or pedantically. Also for landscape it's best to compose with a sense of 3D depth (aided by leading lines). For sport or action best to compose with space for a subject to move into. For portraits or small groups then best to compose considering the eye direction ie thinking of this as a quasi line of interest that our own eyes naturally follow. But not withstanding this, to be prepared to break any or all rules to suit your artistic intent. My own informal rule is best to just 'keep it simple' ie tight minimalist composition with a clear 'hero' point of interest. A dynamic graphic composition can help too. If the main subject isn't immediately obvious then it's too 'windy' boring and unremarkable. Sure rules can help to start one off, but it beholds anyone with artistic intent to move beyond that and develop their own way 'to see' to compose and thus to develop your own visual identity. Dare to be different, bold, dramatic and do it with confidence. Sure not everyone will like your 'style' but as long as you like your own work then you are enroute to artistic integrity.😅
Good video Mark. I agree that the Golden Ratio makes the photos look better so I will start looking at that option in my compositions and editing. Thanks
When cropping images in post I have frequently found that placing the primary subject along a diagonal line drawn from the upper left corner down and across to the lower right corner provides the strongest image. It may be different where people read from right to left and go down the column of characters and across. It is why I like to leave space for future cropping of the image at my leisure in post.
Thanks, very helpful. I would appreciate a little more explanation of the golden ratio itself, but I can find it. It came up at a photo workshop this past week! Also, are you keeping the original aspect ratio or just unlocking and letting it go?? Why, whatever.? Thanks so much! Geoff
Been using the golden ration since my first photograph 20 years ago. Not knowing about the golden ratio but I never liked the rule of third so I placed my subject always like you showed in the video. It was a natural thing for me.
Thank you very much, I use to be very attached to the rule of thirds and I was feeling tired of doing that And I didn’t know how to change. I will start using the golden ratio. Thanks
Great topic Mark. I guess I understand where your going but not sure why. The rule of thirds is over-used and misused because of prior discussions just like this one. Recommending the golden ratio for the wrong images will result in the exact same over and misuse with a different rule and recommendation. I would argue each image should consider its own compositional rule and we should understand them all and apply them with care or not. Some of my most interesting images over the years used a composition unique to it that I never used again. It’s ok to have guide(s) not sure about rules.
Mark Enjoy you tips and photos. 1st camera Minolta SRT-101. I have upgraded to digital and now I am ready to retire and travel. Please help with some of you knowledge on traveling on airlines with camera gear. Check or not to check, proper cases, and just general precautions you take. Thanks
Very good video. I've been using the Golden ratio or Golden Mean for over 15 yrs. The rule of thirds ,in my words, always seemed lopsided, then I found the GR in a photo mag a long time ago. The great painting masters used the Golden ratio, the rule of thirds is the cheesy, easy copy of the GR that photographers thought up. If one looks at the works of Ansel Adams you will see the GR. Also it would have been nice to show the other ways of using the Golden ratio, like the spiral etc.
Concerning the rule of thirds it may work in most of situations but it's not necessarily the most adequate one. As it's said you need to know the rule before you break it. I think the best thing to be sure of is to ensure that the elements if the photo are well-balanced and the eye can read the photo with ease. Thanks a bunch Mark
Golden Ratio is a definitely better than the Rule of Thirds. If you use leading lines and have your foreground guide you to your main focal point, would it really matter to use the Golden Ratio or would it work together with the leading lines?
I keep the 3rd grids on, and use them as guidelines for quick positioning, but not following “line-up on those lines” ritually. As a hardcore photographer, you might say my positioning is all over the place! But it isn't only the positioning that's in a photograph! I DID NOT BUY AN EXPENSIVE CAMERA TO RITUALLY PUT SUBJECTS ON THE THIRD GRID OR THE DEAD CENTRE.
As usual, a great video. And, as usual, I will go back and re-re-edit my photos with what I just learned. I never used the rule of thirds, just went with what looked right to me, but I’ll use these as tools in the future.
One of the ironies in is that we have never so many different tools at our disposal and, instead of being creative and individual, we often want our images to imitate others, rather than to learn from others. You rightly blame the grids on camera screens and processing software for encouraging the rule of thirds. To that, I could add the many judges in club competitions who see it as the go to compositional format. Thanks for giving us an alternative approach, Mark.
Great video! I'm fairly new to photography and have often heard about the rule of thirds. Now I have another perspective to consider so thank you for teaching about this option. I'm going to look back at some of my pictures and try this placement to see how it changes their look. Thanks!
Very brave man for taking on the rule of thirds. I admit, I had doubts going into this video but you make very good points and successfully so as now I feel I have another technique to try out more often (golden ratio). I think both will have their place depending on the situation. And thank you for not only pointing out potential 'flaws' but also a solution. Glad I watched today!
I often put the edges of things on the third lines, rather than the centres of the things, I think it looks nice to have boundaries on the third lines. I notice that many of your examples using the golden ratio grid have the edges of the things quite close to where the third lines would be. That being said I primarily do live broadcasting rather than still photography which changes the equation somewhat.
Mark, good topic and discussion. I do agree that the “rule of thirds” does get used a lot and maybe even too much. Creativity should be based on feel and the look you are trying to achieve, not limited by some rule…. Sometimes, like everything in life, it works out that the composition is best suited at the third of the frame. But, as you are trying to demonstrate this should not be anyone’s guiding principle of composition. We are composing art and there are no rules to this process…. Thanks for sharing and keep snapping!
Great tutorial!!! Being a rookie I pretty much always followed the rule of thirds. Having said that, every picture I printed seemed to be more like the golden ratio. I had never heard of the golden ratio before this video, but now I don't feel so bad about not following the rule of thirds. Thank you, and keep up the good work.
I see most if not all your photo in some way use the rule of thirds. The golden ratio is just another form of thirds, its very hard to see when your photos are 1:1 or verticals. Good idea though
Been finding myself using the golden ratio lately on accident, then trying to adjust to the rule of thirds before I go back. I also have cropped it so that it looks right, then changing the overlay until I find the closest composition rule and making fine adjustments accordingly.
I really like this video because, as usual, you are sharing your thought process as well as talking about what you feel when you look at an image. And that, feelings, is what I find to be the most difficult aspect of photography...to "listen" to my feelings when I look at a scene or image in front of me. I think the rule of thirds as well as the golden ratio are both the best....depending on how they make you feel in a given situation. When I go back and look at some of my images, I think that I used the rule of turds instead of the rule of thirds or any other composition ratio guideline. Where I think I failed is that I didn't slow down and take in the scene in front of me, didn't listen to my own feelings and listen to what made me feel good when viewing the scene. Only when I understand my own feelings can I begin to try to convey and share that feeling with another viewer. And that, for me, is the most difficul...to slow down and listen while I see.
Congratulations to the winners, thanks for the opportunity Mark 👍 I must admit I have not heard of the “Golden Ratio” method until now, I try to make sure my images are balanced before anything else, then think about placing the main subject within the frame, if it happens to be on the “Rule of Thirds” intersection then happy days. I guess unbalanced images annoy me more, or something in the shot that drags the eye away from the obvious subject 🤔It is a very subjective
So, numerology is the answer to photograpjhy. One can always create any number of "insert term" ratios that shift the grid from the center to the sides and apply them. Let's not forget that photographers also went over (golden?) spirals and what not. However, each will only be good in certain scenarios and not so good in others. It all depends on the main subject ant what that subject is surrounded with. Sometimes it looks great centered, other times it looks great shifted to one side or the other depending on what is around.
Good Day Mark... Shout out from Philippines. Your video was suggested by youtube entitled "This COMPOSITION Tool Eats the RULE of THIRDS for Breakfast!! Landscape Photography". I discovered this technique when I was in college. Perfect that your video reminds me of this because I'm doing landscape photography. Your video is very inspiring and it encourages me to do more landscape photography. I hope to get a chance of winning you one of your prizes. Godbless you
I think you are correct in using the Golden Ratio vs. Rule of Thirds, at least for static subjects. A more pleasing composition overall. But, how well do you think it works with a moving subject (say from right to left?) Will the Golden Ratio give the subject enough room to move into without feeling constrained?
Thanks, Mark! As you probably know, the Golden Ratio (or Golden Section) has been used for centuries by artists to compose their paintings. It’s definitely an oldie and a goodie!
Excellent video as usual Mark, amazing how such a small thing can have such an impact on a composition. One question, completely off topic, but where did you get your Orange Apple Watch strap? It’s very cool!
Very good tip! I will definitely be using that. I've got a couple of Clingmans Dome pictures I believe will be a good test for it. Congratulations to all the winners! Mark, again fantastic video man.
Another, well presented and thought provoking video Mark…many thanks. The golden ratio is a mathematical one derived from many natural objects and occurs in many flowers natural structures etc. Like others I will set Lightroom to show it all the time from now on!
Thank you very much for this video. I have used the rule of thirds as a guideline mostly but have felt free to fudge it. I have felt that the rule of thirds made my compositions feel sterile. I have always liked to move my subject to a more aesthetic position that felt more natural. I am going to set the grids on my camera to the golden ratio now. Thanks again for the video...
60 years ago the rule of thirds was suggested as an approximation to the rule used in the darkroom to be used when taking the photo. The rules suggested for use in the darkroom, when you had ample time to compose, was to use the point of intersection of a perpendicular from a corner to a diagonal connecting the adjacent two corners. This changes the points position with the aspect ratio of the final print.
Photography should be what we like, not what we find popular, but neither running away from popular... I don't care how many people is doing this or that, I care about knowing how things work and than choose what I like... Constantly trying to avoid thirds just because is trendy is to me another way of slavery... The rule of thirds is and will always be a fine balanced way to distribute to the viewer what is more important and not so much... Now the crossing of the lines, yes, that is a bit exagerated to be always forcing smaller motives into them...
Odds look most pleasing, as in three, five or seven elements. If two items are subject, the third element would be negative space, or some other item in the photo. The rule of thirds may be looking good, as it has introduced odds. Take care, Loren Schwiderski
🌟Thanks so much to all who entered the 200k Giveaway & Congratulations to all the Winners!
The rule of thirds is a good teaching tool when teaching composition, but once one has "mastered" the basics of composition and it shows in their work, then it can be broken. As one photographer said to me, once you know the rules, then you know when you can BREAK them. The rule of thirds doesn't always work (for example, if you're looking for symmetry in a phtoograph or certain patterns, or you want to take a picture of a tunnel with a light at the end of it... then the rule of thirds doesn't really work although you can use the ROT guides to center your frame). As with most things in photography, there is a time and place for things, and then there isn't and it's good to know what type of composition method (whether it's the rule of thirds, golden ratio, or some other technique) is appropriate). At the end of the day, you just want some sort of balance, whether that fits within a composition technique or not. I think as long as you have an interesting subject, the lighting is appropriate, and there is "balance" within the frame, that's all you need. You don't always have to follow the composition rules to a T.
Spot on 💯✔️
Mark, I have never thought of the “Rule of Thirds” as a rule, but rather as a suggestion or starting point. If one of the 1/3 lines or intersections gives me the most interesting compositional place to put my subject, then I’m fine with that. However, if another composition is more dynamic and interesting, then that is what I choose. And that is how I explain this and other compositional suggestions to others. It felt like you were reaching a little bit to create content by suggesting that we should kill the rule of thirds. That said, I appreciate your channel and your guidance, in general.
Great video Mark! Great tips. I think the problem people, and myself, have with the rule of thirds is forgetting to add a counter balance to the opposite third of the frame making it visually unbalanced. With all that “empty space” on that part, the composition just feels off.
Thanks so much - totally agree!
I agree with your thinking and often do not use the rule of 3rds.
Yes, many times there is a huge amount of dead space in a rule of thirds (ROT) cropped image. But there are many images that work well with it. You are a photographer, so you instinctively look for particular methods employed, but the average viewer doesn’t recognize the tool employed. As a photographer trained in art photography, I don’t always use ROT or Golden Ratio. I experiment with the placement of the subject to create the visual aspects to pull the viewer into the image. I don’t want someone to view it, say that it’s nice, and then more along. I want to pull them into the image and have an experience. It’s not always going to happen, but always following the rules is not going to allow for much imagination or artistry. You have a great channel Mark, and I respect your expertise.
I think both the rule of 3rds and golden ratio techniques are equally as useful. It all depends on your subject and personal preference. At the end of the day, photography is an art form, and art is entirely subjective.
Congrats to all the winners!
Absolutely. Hecking out your workshops.great info Mark.
congratulation for those four people! and congrats for 200k again and also! thanks for the great video for composition again!
Thanks a million Ryan!
@@MarkDenneyPhoto my pleasure!
Thanks for a new way to think about composition when editing my photos!! A great video!
Love that you had an Ocracoke Island shirt!!!
Best sunrises around.
Mark, I appreciate your video on this important topic. I agree that the Rule of Thirds (ROT) is an over-used compositional concept.
It works when it works, but it stands out as undesirable when it is overused, as in "Oh, ROT that is distracting."
When Center-Weighting is not enough, I tend to use Off-Center-Weighting with a strong preference for the Golden Ratio Grid approach.
Generally, at the decisive moment, I'll focus with Center-Weighting for my main object, then move the camera slightly off-center, while keeping the Golden Ratio Grid in mind.
When post-processing, I'll crop according to the needs of my composition.
Thank you for bucking the ROT trend and showing what is, for many of us, a better way of composing great photos.
Awesome Vlog and appreciate the shortcut advice for Lightroom.
Awesome photos used within content also as examples.
I'm going to give it a try. Makes sense . Another good tutorial Mark. Thanks
Congratulations winners! Mark, I've been using your previous Rule of Thirds video as a basis for my compositions for about a year now, I think. This was a great refresher. Thanks for posting it!
A good balanced approach Mark. Those rules are meant to be broken! Ken Duncan - Australia's most internationally sucessful Australian landscape photographer for many decades, once told a story of how a judge was looking at one of his images in a gallery said that "This photograph is not following the rules but the photograph still works" LOL!!
The person didn't know Ken and Ken replied..... I'm glad the photographer (KEN) didn't know the rule the hey? LOL!!!!
Thanks Phil! That’s a great story as well:)
Yes. Been using that same overlay for years for the same reason, the rule of thirds seems to leave just too much empty space in areas where I want things to be!
Nice video. Gave me food for thought to use different approaches to instead of the rule of thirds.
Another helpful video. I agree that the Rule of Thirds is over-used. I was in a FB group where it was promoted heavily, and I pushed back for folks to not get locked into that as their only compositional guide. So many had no idea of the O shortcut in LR to toggle through the other options.
Sometimes with the these "rules", it seems that we compose with what "feels" right (considering the weight and balance of all the components of the picture) and then find the overlay that fits it most closely. Are most of these "rules" just made up to fill someone's curriculum?
Very well explained with excellent examples. Many thanks for sharing Mark.
Appreciate ya John!
The problem with "Rule of Thirds" is the very first word and you pointed it out very clearly, everyone does it. I bet if it was called something else it wouldn't be used as often. Even words like "golden" I think have the potential for abuse. Most don't realize that these are tools to be used and even less (talking more so for the amateurs) fully understand why one is used. For me, I've found the best way to learn this is to take a scene, crop it different ways without guides until I think the image is satisfying. Then, apply the grids. I've learned quite a bit that way and still have more to learn. Love these videos.
Another interesting video Mark, thanks for sharing ... and congrats to the bag winners!
Good video, I started the video very skeptical, but in the end I totally understand and agree now. I don't think my camera shows anything other than rule of thirds, but can estimate it easily enough.
I think the key takeaway is to not stick to any particular rule when composing images. I use the rule of thirds, rule of fourths, rule of fifths, golden ratio, centered subject and variations on all of them. The key is to create a balanced image, I think. Including dead space, in order to achieve the correct ratio, is not the answer, in my opinion.
Good video Mark. Think the rule of thirds has unintentionally too often become my default for composing a landscape photograph (especially with horizons), so need to be more mindful of pushing my subject inward. Or better yet, maybe take that extra shot or two where I just push against the rules and try something completely different!
These tips are extremely helpful. To me, the golden ratio composition feels much more dynamic. I admit I've fallen into the habit of using the rule of thirds technique for quite some time, and I feel that the general composition of my photos has become a bit too predictable. I'm excited to play around with these suggestions going forward!
Great lesson !!! Many thanks. Amazing !!
thanks for sharing this informative demo of what has confused me for years! golden mean makes so much sense
Mark, thanks very much for an entertaining and informative video. Learning a lot from you 👍
Great video with clear examples where the golden ratio outshines the rule of thirds! And congrats to all the winners.
Ocracoke Island shirt! Always love to see you repping the Carolinas!
Visited OBX years ago before getting into photography, it was November and cold, but zero crowds. I would like to go back one day and capture the lighthouses. Great video content Mark, plenty of think about here.
Great points you make there... I would like to add something: We are spoilt with this 60 megapixel reality that we live in now. But only ten years ago, we were proud of shots that were a fraction of that. So why not zoom out a bit, and crop later. To a square format... Portrait... Landscape... Cameras are SO good nowadays....
You did an amazing job fighting those bots last week, mad respect for sticking at it for as long as you did!
Thanks man💪
Very informative, well explained
Great video today! I found it very helpful. I have fallen into the habit of overusing the rule of thirds. I will definitely try changing it up more! Thanks, Mark.👍🏻
Glad to hear you enjoyed the video Sidney!
As a newbie I've been applying the rule of third but moving my feet to make more dynamic shots if that makes sense. Great points here and when you said you'd leave that bit when you cropped the rock pic, I knew exactly what "because I like that"
means and my wife says I make that same face lol!
Very interesting, Mark. 🙂
Thanks Peter!
This video just shows that what actually matters is what is in the photo and not the ratio.
Hi Mark, another great video. I really enjoyed that subtle difference between the rules of thirds and the golden rule. For such a small difference, there was an immediate visual difference. I've always struggled with my landscape photography to get the right balance for the scene and for the message I want to get across. I'm going to give the golden rule a whirl in some of my existing images to see if I can bring that bit of extra life into some of them. Thanks Mark, have a good one. Paul, Sheffield, UK.
Great tips! Really goes to show how minor adjustments can have major impacts. Subtle yet impactful.
Hi Mark, I live in Colorado and am wondering where your upcoming Colorado workshop will be held? I live at the base of the Sangre de Christo mountaind near the town of Westcliffe, I never miss your videos, Steve
I stopped thinking about the rule of thirds. I even forgot to turn the overlay on in my a7 IV when I bought it. I compose however I want, yet still keeping track of not having too much dead space that doesn't contribute to the image or overlapping subjects that shouldn't overlap or leaving too much or too little space between subjects. Using leading lines where it feels right or stacking elements where it feels right (like a telephoto woodland scene or a stack of mountains into the deep atmosphere). It's good to learn why things work a certain way and using some of these guidance tips like the rule of thirds, the golden ratio, leading lines and the foreground-midground-background stack to create depth are all good things. But so is back-lighting your subjects, using flat light when it works or having nice golden directional light other times. There are so many aspects to composition.
Excellent point and I really like your solution.
Thanks so much!
Best explanation I’ve ever had of the golden ratio thank you so much 😊
Interesting discussion Mark. I wonder if the Golden rule was the universally accepted composition tool if we would be decrying the slavish adherence to that and suggesting the rule of thirds as an alternative. Surely it's more about moving the subject off centre to create tension in the image. How far off centre depends upon the overall balance in the image (light, secondary subjects, leading lines, neutral space... all the other elements of composition). The various rules are surely more like guides to what often works well, but to be varied as required by individual circumstances.
This is my take on it as well. The rule of thirds is not a hard and fast rule. It is a technique that allows for compositions other than center weighted to create some artistic value. But every scene must be evaluated and adjusted. I always viewed the rule of thirds as a starting point anyway.
Thanks so much Peter!
Another thing to keep in mind is where we decide to position our compositional lines. When I crop my portrait photos, I don't put my rule of thirds line in the center of the face, I offset it over an eye, and which line over which eye can make a big difference. For example, when you cropped the Golden Gate you chose to put the right line in the middle of the bridge, whereas is you had pushed the right line over to the right side, your composition would be much closer to what you ended up with with the golden ratio. Just another thing to keep in mind; where we choose to line things up on our subject. Great video Mark!
My technique is start out with the rule of thirds and then adjust from there. Sometimes, the rule of thirds is a perfect solution, but I come to that conclusion only after trying other solutions, coming back to the rule of thirds, or finding another way. The best bet is to acquire enough experience with cropping so that it becomes intuitive. Settling on a standard place to start and then following intuitive hunches serves me well.
Hi Mark. Awesome lesson on rule of thirds and golden rule of thirds. I am guilty of using the the rule of thirds more than I probably should. I am definitely going to try this on my photos. My moto is to "get better one photo at a time" and your instructions have helped me on this journey. Keep the videos coming.
Thanks for sharing. An interesting idea, but to me it's semantics. I don't apply TROT precisely and seek to position exactly, just approximately until it feels about right. It all depends on what image elements you are dealing with. Also when you referenced examples like your 'Golden Gate Bridge' you weren't doing so either, thus IMO trying too hard to make your point. In 'thirds' you moved RHS of tower exactly on the line. Yet for 'golden ratio' you moved centre part of Tower to the line, thus diminishing the difference. To my eye both were broadly similar, so no real appreciable difference.
I really take your thesis to be TROT is getting overused, so in order for your work to stand apart (a good thing) we need to look beyond the basics.
I'd argue that the 'golden ratio' plus 'triangulation' with a degree of 'leading lines' makes more sense - especially where applied generally (ie with judged artistic vision) rather than precisely or pedantically. Also for landscape it's best to compose with a sense of 3D depth (aided by leading lines). For sport or action best to compose with space for a subject to move into. For portraits or small groups then best to compose considering the eye direction ie thinking of this as a quasi line of interest that our own eyes naturally follow. But not withstanding this, to be prepared to break any or all rules to suit your artistic intent.
My own informal rule is best to just 'keep it simple' ie tight minimalist composition with a clear 'hero' point of interest. A dynamic graphic composition can help too. If the main subject isn't immediately obvious then it's too 'windy' boring and unremarkable. Sure rules can help to start one off, but it beholds anyone with artistic intent to move beyond that and develop their own way 'to see' to compose and thus to develop your own visual identity.
Dare to be different, bold, dramatic and do it with confidence. Sure not everyone will like your 'style' but as long as you like your own work then you are enroute to artistic integrity.😅
Good video Mark. I agree that the Golden Ratio makes the photos look better so I will start looking at that option in my compositions and editing. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it!
When cropping images in post I have frequently found that placing the primary subject along a diagonal line drawn from the upper left corner down and across to the lower right corner provides the strongest image. It may be different where people read from right to left and go down the column of characters and across. It is why I like to leave space for future cropping of the image at my leisure in post.
Thanks, very helpful. I would appreciate a little more explanation of the golden ratio itself, but I can find it. It came up at a photo workshop this past week! Also, are you keeping the original aspect ratio or just unlocking and letting it go?? Why, whatever.? Thanks so much! Geoff
Congrats to the winners!! Thanks for the Giveaway Mark. Also great informative video as usual!!.
Thanks so much!
@@MarkDenneyPhoto You're welcome!
Been using the golden ration since my first photograph 20 years ago. Not knowing about the golden ratio but I never liked the rule of third so I placed my subject always like you showed in the video. It was a natural thing for me.
Thank you very much, I use to be very attached to the rule of thirds and I was feeling tired of doing that And I didn’t know how to change. I will start using the golden ratio. Thanks
Glad to do it and thanks for checking out the video!
Thanks, useful tip & examples. I usually use the rule of thirds as a starting point and then adjust as needed to fit the image.
Thanks for watching Doug!
Great topic Mark. I guess I understand where your going but not sure why. The rule of thirds is over-used and misused because of prior discussions just like this one. Recommending the golden ratio for the wrong images will result in the exact same over and misuse with a different rule and recommendation. I would argue each image should consider its own compositional rule and we should understand them all and apply them with care or not. Some of my most interesting images over the years used a composition unique to it that I never used again. It’s ok to have guide(s) not sure about rules.
Mark
Enjoy you tips and photos. 1st camera Minolta SRT-101. I have upgraded to digital and now I am ready to retire and travel. Please help with some of you knowledge on traveling on airlines with camera gear. Check or not to check, proper cases, and just general precautions you take. Thanks
Very good video. I've been using the Golden ratio or Golden Mean for over 15 yrs. The rule of thirds ,in my words, always seemed lopsided, then I found the GR in a photo mag a long time ago. The great painting masters used the Golden ratio, the rule of thirds is the cheesy, easy copy of the GR that photographers thought up. If one looks at the works of Ansel Adams you will see the GR. Also it would have been nice to show the other ways of using the Golden ratio, like the spiral etc.
Concerning the rule of thirds it may work in most of situations but it's not necessarily the most adequate one. As it's said you need to know the rule before you break it. I think the best thing to be sure of is to ensure that the elements if the photo are well-balanced and the eye can read the photo with ease.
Thanks a bunch Mark
Golden Ratio is a definitely better than the Rule of Thirds. If you use leading lines and have your foreground guide you to your main focal point, would it really matter to use the Golden Ratio or would it work together with the leading lines?
Great video, as usual. Wouldn’t it be nice to view winning images of a photo contest and not all of them be rule-of-thirds?
I keep the 3rd grids on, and use them as guidelines for quick positioning, but not following “line-up on those lines” ritually. As a hardcore photographer, you might say my positioning is all over the place! But it isn't only the positioning that's in a photograph!
I DID NOT BUY AN EXPENSIVE CAMERA TO RITUALLY PUT SUBJECTS ON THE THIRD GRID OR THE DEAD CENTRE.
Great tip! 😊
Great tip on the golden ratio - will try that out for sure on my next photo trip !!
Thanks Andrew!
As usual, a great video. And, as usual, I will go back and re-re-edit my photos with what I just learned. I never used the rule of thirds, just went with what looked right to me, but I’ll use these as tools in the future.
One of the ironies in is that we have never so many different tools at our disposal and, instead of being creative and individual, we often want our images to imitate others, rather than to learn from others. You rightly blame the grids on camera screens and processing software for encouraging the rule of thirds. To that, I could add the many judges in club competitions who see it as the go to compositional format. Thanks for giving us an alternative approach, Mark.
Great video! I'm fairly new to photography and have often heard about the rule of thirds. Now I have another perspective to consider so thank you for teaching about this option. I'm going to look back at some of my pictures and try this placement to see how it changes their look. Thanks!
Glad to do it and thanks for taking the time to check out the video!
Very brave man for taking on the rule of thirds. I admit, I had doubts going into this video but you make very good points and successfully so as now I feel I have another technique to try out more often (golden ratio). I think both will have their place depending on the situation. And thank you for not only pointing out potential 'flaws' but also a solution. Glad I watched today!
Glad you watched as well - happy to hear it was helpful!
I often put the edges of things on the third lines, rather than the centres of the things, I think it looks nice to have boundaries on the third lines. I notice that many of your examples using the golden ratio grid have the edges of the things quite close to where the third lines would be.
That being said I primarily do live broadcasting rather than still photography which changes the equation somewhat.
Mark, good topic and discussion. I do agree that the “rule of thirds” does get used a lot and maybe even too much. Creativity should be based on feel and the look you are trying to achieve, not limited by some rule…. Sometimes, like everything in life, it works out that the composition is best suited at the third of the frame. But, as you are trying to demonstrate this should not be anyone’s guiding principle of composition. We are composing art and there are no rules to this process…. Thanks for sharing and keep snapping!
Thanks so much for watching Alan!
Great tutorial!!! Being a rookie I pretty much always followed the rule of thirds. Having said that, every picture I printed seemed to be more like the golden ratio. I had never heard of the golden ratio before this video, but now I don't feel so bad about not following the rule of thirds. Thank you, and keep up the good work.
Appreciate it Michael!
What I understood is apply the rule of third to what visually looks best to your eye without actually being aligned to the rule of thirdes.
I see most if not all your photo in some way use the rule of thirds. The golden ratio is just another form of thirds, its very hard to see when your photos are 1:1 or verticals. Good idea though
Been finding myself using the golden ratio lately on accident, then trying to adjust to the rule of thirds before I go back. I also have cropped it so that it looks right, then changing the overlay until I find the closest composition rule and making fine adjustments accordingly.
Thank you!
I really like this video because, as usual, you are sharing your thought process as well as talking about what you feel when you look at an image. And that, feelings, is what I find to be the most difficult aspect of photography...to "listen" to my feelings when I look at a scene or image in front of me. I think the rule of thirds as well as the golden ratio are both the best....depending on how they make you feel in a given situation. When I go back and look at some of my images, I think that I used the rule of turds instead of the rule of thirds or any other composition ratio guideline. Where I think I failed is that I didn't slow down and take in the scene in front of me, didn't listen to my own feelings and listen to what made me feel good when viewing the scene. Only when I understand my own feelings can I begin to try to convey and share that feeling with another viewer. And that, for me, is the most difficul...to slow down and listen while I see.
Thanks for sharing this Bryan - great to hear you enjoyed the video!
Congratulations to the winners, thanks for the opportunity Mark 👍 I must admit I have not heard of the “Golden Ratio” method until now, I try to make sure my images are balanced before anything else, then think about placing the main subject within the frame, if it happens to be on the “Rule of Thirds” intersection then happy days. I guess unbalanced images annoy me more, or something in the shot that drags the eye away from the obvious subject 🤔It is a very subjective
Of course and thanks for checking out the video Garry!
I live in NC, absolutely love the shirt!! Such a beautiful kept secret is Ocracoke
So, numerology is the answer to photograpjhy. One can always create any number of "insert term" ratios that shift the grid from the center to the sides and apply them. Let's not forget that photographers also went over (golden?) spirals and what not. However, each will only be good in certain scenarios and not so good in others.
It all depends on the main subject ant what that subject is surrounded with. Sometimes it looks great centered, other times it looks great shifted to one side or the other depending on what is around.
Great video, going to try it!
Thanks James!
Good Day Mark... Shout out from Philippines. Your video was suggested by youtube entitled "This COMPOSITION Tool Eats the RULE of THIRDS for Breakfast!! Landscape Photography". I discovered this technique when I was in college. Perfect that your video reminds me of this because I'm doing landscape photography. Your video is very inspiring and it encourages me to do more landscape photography. I hope to get a chance of winning you one of your prizes. Godbless you
I think you are correct in using the Golden Ratio vs. Rule of Thirds, at least for static subjects. A more pleasing composition overall. But, how well do you think it works with a moving subject (say from right to left?) Will the Golden Ratio give the subject enough room to move into without feeling constrained?
Thats something to consider in that situation for sure.
Thanks, Mark! As you probably know, the Golden Ratio (or Golden Section) has been used for centuries by artists to compose their paintings. It’s definitely an oldie and a goodie!
Great stuff Mark, very useful. Cheers
Appreciate it Michael!
Excellent video as usual Mark, amazing how such a small thing can have such an impact on a composition. One question, completely off topic, but where did you get your Orange Apple Watch strap? It’s very cool!
From some random store on Amazon
Great video and advice!
Much appreciated!
Great topic! I really enjoyed this video.
Thanks Andrew!
Very good tip! I will definitely be using that. I've got a couple of Clingmans Dome pictures I believe will be a good test for it. Congratulations to all the winners! Mark, again fantastic video man.
Thanks for checking it out Brandon!
Another, well presented and thought provoking video Mark…many thanks. The golden ratio is a mathematical one derived from many natural objects and occurs in many flowers natural structures etc. Like others I will set Lightroom to show it all the time from now on!
It's great to hear you enjoyed the video Jeff!
Thank you very much for this video. I have used the rule of thirds as a guideline mostly but have felt free to fudge it. I have felt that the rule of thirds made my compositions feel sterile. I have always liked to move my subject to a more aesthetic position that felt more natural. I am going to set the grids on my camera to the golden ratio now. Thanks again for the video...
I prefer the format I created...The Golden Rule of Ratio...it is in between Rule of Thirds and Golden Ratio. Total game changer.
ok im convinced ❤
Must admit l have never been totally convinced about the rule of thirds so will definitely try the golden grid system 😀
60 years ago the rule of thirds was suggested as an approximation to the rule used in the darkroom to be used when taking the photo. The rules suggested for use in the darkroom, when you had ample time to compose, was to use the point of intersection of a perpendicular from a corner to a diagonal connecting the adjacent two corners. This changes the points position with the aspect ratio of the final print.
Photography should be what we like, not what we find popular, but neither running away from popular... I don't care how many people is doing this or that, I care about knowing how things work and than choose what I like... Constantly trying to avoid thirds just because is trendy is to me another way of slavery... The rule of thirds is and will always be a fine balanced way to distribute to the viewer what is more important and not so much... Now the crossing of the lines, yes, that is a bit exagerated to be always forcing smaller motives into them...
Odds look most pleasing, as in three, five or seven elements. If two items are subject, the third element would be negative space, or some other item in the photo. The rule of thirds may be looking good, as it has introduced odds. Take care, Loren Schwiderski