Lord Of The Rings: The Hidden Religious Themes
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- Опубликовано: 29 авг 2022
- Analysis of some of the themes present in Lord of the Rings, and whether the story is influenced more by Pagan mythology, primarily Germanic, or Christianity. These are only my personal opinions. I am not a Tolkien scholar and my views may differ from others.
Images used in the cover and throughout the video are from the films and utilized under fair use. All rights belong to their proper rights holders.
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I think the fact that both Christians and Contemporary Pagans/Polytheists find inspiration in Tolkien's works speaks to its ability to speak to the truths in both worlds
And atheists too
Yes, it's sad that they are now subverting those truths
@@killgriffinnow the indo European elements speak by themselves
@@ovrair6340 Not if people teach their children LoTR rather than letting the Orcs try to rewrite it.
There is no "truth" in the Christian world. Christianity is an (intentional) subversion of Truth.
That passage of Frodo et al reaching the Uttermost West gets me every time. It is so evocative to every sense, you can almost smell the fresh air, hear the angelic choirs, etc. No doubt -- Tolkien was one of the greatest writers the English language has ever seen. I really do not want to see any more Tolkien adaptations whether by motion picture or extremely expensive TV series. There is apparently too much pressure to make the works a superhero extravaganza instead of a subtle morality play that they lose the structure and meaning of the original. But that is just me.
I do love that passage and how it hearkens back to the dream he had in Tom Bombadil's house.
"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out practically all references to anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism." ~J. R. R. Tolkien
I think it's one of those weird cases where it's both. Tolkien wrote it as a Norse saga type story and it pulls from his own catholic background while also drawing from norse pagan stories and beliefs. I've read enough to safely say you can't have one without the other with the lord of the rings universe.
The Norse Sagas were written by Christians too. There are no pagan sagas
@@PeteV80 they were translated into books and scrolls not written as sagas tended to be oral traditions that eventually got put into the written word usually yes by Christian monkswho tended to not be literate themselves and simply copied an original. So yes sagas were pagan despite the Christian attempt to erase pahlgan beliefs and history. However we do tend to find large stones that carry written norse sagas and historical information.
@@PeteV80 we also have plenty of evidence containing fulthark script besides just the massive stones that are out it public view. One simply needs to also look at the Christian attempt to Christianize celtic pagan stories through monks Taking oral stories and modifying them to fit in with what they wanted the people to hear. So yes sagas are pagan, and so is a portion of Tolkiens legendarium.
@@619soysauce no evidence of that claim.
@@619soysauce the standing stones are Christian memorials.
Fabulous. These were the books of my childhood 40 years ago. I was a Tolkien fan at least a generation before these actors were born. Fabulous books, fabulous movie - still marvel at the sheer details and acting. And a great video by you. Well done.
Kick ass voice impressions, commentary and editing. Great video!
I know Tolkien found a lot to admire in the outlooks, attitudes and moralities of the Pagans, and he said something to the effect of it being admirable that the Pagans would do the things they thought they needed to do even if the outlook was grim and even if they were doomed to ultimate oblivion.
Regarding Gods, I know that according to Tolkien the Valar were named and considered Gods by the race of Men, although he considered them only high angelic powers. Really, the difference between an Abrahamic conception of angels of various sorts & ranks, and Gods in the Pagan conception, often (but admittedly, not always) boils down to semantics versus fine philosophical/ontological distinctions.
Catholicism often allows for various pagan gods to be incorporated as Saints.
No it doesnt 😂@@IndigoVagrant
before I've begun watching, I'm going to guess, Both
Mr Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and quite enamored by Norse, Irish, Welsh and Finnish pegan texts
Same here. As I understand it Professor Tolkien wrote the world as one that was more or less Pagan but waiting to become Christian in good time, a fictional pre-historic "pagan" past for Western Europe.
@@supernova808 The second you said semitic: it became un-Catholic.
@@supernova808 it matters on what your definition of Is, is. Dont play word games.
I mean, its a common practice in Christianity to accept pagan cultures and deities as long as they are treated either as mythologies or venerated ancestors, its the practice of euhemerism
@@supernova808 I'd be interested in seeing you define "liberal" here.
In the words of Tolkien's son: "They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people aged 15 to 25,” Christopher said of “The Lord Of The Rings,” revealing he turned down an invitation to meet Jackson. “And it seems that ‘The Hobbit’ will be the same kind of film.” “The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has overwhelmed me. The commercialisation has reduced the aesthetic and philosophical impact of the creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: to turn my head away.”
I'm glad to hear this because I was disappointed by the movies. Now I feel more justified. I remember immediately not caring for it in the theater with Fellowship. Something is just missing.
You can’t say any of that to film fans, though. They’ll just deflect and point out how popular the movies are. Or they’ll talk about how good they are as stand alone movies. They will quite frankly never admit that something can be both a great movie and a mediocre adaption at the same time.
@@lowlandnobleman6746 Yeah they actually are good stand alone movies but if you want a great adaptation you'll be disappointed. Well, I am anyway.
That's really too bad because I absolutely love both. The Hobbit movies kinda sucked. Not watching ROP. Idk what more people could have asked for, the characters were accurately translated for the most part, I don't think they changed the meaning of the story or characters. Yes, it's an action-adventure story and they emphasized the action but it's a war film about The War of the Ring. Clearly everyone making the film loved Tolkien's material.
Pobodys nerfect though
Because the ones who make the movies work for Sauron of course.
Music is Code, "And The Morning Stars Sang Together", but to say God has instantiated a code might seem pagan to some, but, why. The Silmarillion says the Ainur were impatient
over "the void" and so Ea, the world that is created out of The Themes of Music being sung, then manifests a clockwork like unfolding of The Energy of Illuvatar in the Void guided
by His Own Creation, without any of their own full understanding. The most important line would be Illuvatar's response to Melkor. “And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be
played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more
wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.” God is Immutable. This is what must be understood. Great Video.
Very nice analysis, well argued. I like your POV a lot. Thanks for uploading and blessings!
A most delightful rendering of a much loved story. Thank you 🌹
Bravo my friend! One of my favourite yt channels especially after such a brilliant video 👏
Excellent job on this. I agree there are many elements at work here that are both pre-Christian and Christian, but as you mentioned, tradition (and traditionalism) play an important role. Another pagan concept that I think plays a major role is the concept of "the eternal return" - Sauron's (and thus evil's or chao's) return to Middle Earth, corruption's return to Middle Earth in the form of the One Ring's physical return by way of Sméagol's discovering it (or it discovering him), and the Return of the King to name a few. The heroic ideal combined with metaphysical truths and perennial wisdom perfectly link the two worlds of classical pagan antiquity with Christianity. It's a testament to the masterful writing of Tolkien that it appeals to both noble-minded pagans and Christians, and that it has and will continue to endure - a beacon of perennialism in and of itself.
The simple answer: yes.
Starting off strong with a quote from my favorite chapter in the Fellowship. I already like this video.
Greetings to you Kevin... Look forward to watching this compilation. Thank you 🌹😎
Many people believe that Tolkien channeled his stories of a time long forgotten, erased from history after the Elves left the realm of Man. In his imagining of this rich realm he was recalling the lives of peoples who actually once existed and a creation story once believed and told. I see many correlations between Tolkien's creation story and many other creation beliefs, even some of the names like Manwe very similar to Yaweh as one example. Great presentation thank you.
10:00 or so. Depth and Division.
Great presentation. Raised a three services a week Lutheran, yep, sure was getting those references. Read TLofR 1st time in 10th grade, Silmarillion in the 11th. Had bookshelves at home with most European myths represented.
Discovered DnD 10th grade as well. 1979 was a very good year.
The song of creation in the Silmarillion is, in my humble opinion, the best and most beautiful interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis since at least the King James Version.
And yet, the societies of Middle Earth, by the era of LOTR, have their own religious beliefs. Only the elves have a belief system based on Iluvatar - the oldest elves knew the Valar and Maiar in the islands to the west, so this isn't surprising - while the beliefs of the dwarves and races of men are clearly based on the Germanic mythologies Professor Tolkien studied. It's a good balance, and one that makes sense in the world Tolkien (re)created.
Well done! 🤩 Ive read LOTR at least a dozen (probably closer to 20, no joke) times over the last 50+ years and reached many of the conclusions you sum up very well in your presentation. JRR was a brilliant man with a wide knowledge of Northern European languages and mythology... In spite of his papism he had a deep respect for the Pagan myths and managed to blend Paganism and his Christianity seamlessly. Someday when we all meet in Valhalla...
It's Catholic work.
Yes you will meet each other in hell 😂
Brilliant work... Thank you!
It is literally both by Tolkien's own admission. He combine the three main mythic traditions of England (Celtic, Norse/Germanic, and Christian) to create an epic mythology that was respectful to all but centrally built upon his own Catholic faith. He wanted it to be recognizable for all three and yet distinctly separate. And it is is quite brilliant. It also helps that all three have overlapping themes and have coexisted for hundreds of years and this had entered into the zeitgeist of the moment in such a way that it was all familiar and yet just alien enough to be intriguing.
@@supernova808 It most certainly is a mythology, a fictional mythology and yet a mythology still. The plethora of anthropologists, linguists, and literary specialists would confirm this.
And it most certainly is an epic. Poeticism is not required for something to be an epic.
@@supernova808 Using archaic definitions of something that isn't applicable across a multicultural discipline such as the study of mythology or literature is pure folly. There are many ancient epics that aren't poetic, that doesnt mean they aren't epics. And it most certainly is a mythology. He created a mythology within his work. It has all of the religious and cultural necessities to be regarded as such. That it is a fictional mythology does not mean it isn't mythological. HP Lovecraft did the same thing. You are trying to parse the definition into whether or not the mythology in question has ties to a real world people who practice that myth. But that isn't how it works.
@@supernova808 Absolutely not. The fact I'm permabanned from half of social media proves that.
But you are still wrong.
The definition of Epic you are using is the archaic definition built around Greek and Latin literary tradition. It does not apply to epics from other cultures that eschew the poetic format. The definition was hence expanded decades and decades ago for this reason as literary study expanded. They didn't change the nature of the definition wholly as with the gender vs sex debate but realized that it was not a complete definition and simply expanded it. Literally the second and third definitions applied to the word prove you wrong. As society and additional cultures were considered for study, the classical definition of what constituted an epic became less relevant. A literary epic this does not have to be poetic so long as it follows the typical epic format of heroic feats and grand adventure.
I would suggest reading Martin Simonson’s The Lord of the Rings and the Western Narrative Tradition where this very question is dissected and you are soundly proven wrong.
And they absolutely are mythologies. I don't get how you cannot see that. Both created distinct fictional realms and intertwining stories that harbor self-contained mythic traditions. Tolkien more so than Lovecraft, sure, but both created fictional literary mythologies that are representative of real-world mythic traditions. Tolkien in particular did so and managed to create such a vast and exceptional mythology within his books that it has become an entire subject of study for modern scholars.
You are wrong. There is no way around that. Tolkien's collective works are absolutely a mythology and both the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings qualify as literary epics.
@@supernova808 You really need to reassess the definition of Epic within the literary context. It literally refers to non-poetic works. It is even part of the definition.
And again, you don't seem to know what a mythology is. It is simply a combination of religious and cultural stories, taboos, and enlightening fables with interlocking cultural themes. Which is exactly what Tolkien created within his books.
@@supernova808 "But does this liberal and colloquial redefinition of terminology really get us very far in making any useful literary analysis?"
Yes, it does, because these have become highly useful terms for separating modern stories with these qualities from stories without them.
We only hope that the Jedi Religion and Tolkienism never unite with the D&D sorcerers.
Excellent commentary! I could only add, though, that Gollum didn't slip, but he was commanded by the ring to jump into the fire. When Gollum ambushed them at the foot of Mt. Doom, Sam sees the confrontation as a kind of vision with Frodo holding a wheel of fire. The wheel says that if Gollum hinders it again, it will cast him into the fires of doom.
He himself would be cast into the fire, not the Ring. Why would the Ring commit suicide?
consider the one rings temptation. It harkens back to Abrahamic myths like the Garden of Eve- Original Sin and Classical myths like the Story of Persephone. How at the very end, when the temptation and curiosity is at its peak, humans are inherently flawed and prone to fail. But we also have the free will and ability to do what's good, which is what gives our lives meaning. Tolkien had a philosophy that good doesn't always win, but often relies on evil to enact it's will, or evil is self destructive. Frodo gives into his temptation at the crack of mount doom (an evil), and it's his mercy for Gollum which acts as providence through Illuvatar (Tolkien referred to this as "Eucotrastophe") who makes gollum dance off the edge into the fires, destroying the one ring.
As I know he read the Heimskringla I know there is a lot of Norse in it as well. He lived not too far away from me and I met him as a child. I have read the books about 13 times as a child, and I too have read the Heimskringla.. where you get to one part it gets repeated and it suddenly changes of the year by 100 years before the same lines turn up again As JRR would have put it..This is magick indeed!. . Gandalf you will see is in the Heimskringla and was a sea king who was beaten by Finehair on his way to unite Norway. It was hard to date things back then as not as much knowledge was available... like the fact that there were 3 Ragnars, Rothhbrok (Dies in Battle in England) (typing changes often but we all know whho we mean I am sure) who might well have had two of Finehairs children as fostri, Ragnar Rykill (Dies same time off the coast of Ireland when Ragnar hit a rok THE Ragnnarok which was basicly the death as the main Viking way of things in many places and you see there is a lull in raids, until they sort out a new leader))) another of Finehairs children.. he had a lot as he had 18 wives and the Pope still tries to get him written out of the history even though one of Finehairs sons was given to a Pope at the time it is said. These days we could quite easily put real dates in for the most part as we have dates of many if not all that happened and are mentioned in that time. 3rd Ragnar is Hairybreeks who dies inn the snake pit in East Anglia.. in the 500s if the research is correct as although Ragnar was not mentioned the two who were arguing over that crown were.
@@supernova808 You think? as it is a lot of about it on who had all the power in Kin of kings FinehairNorway and his sons, One king in Ireland (Ivar the Boneless), one in Yorkshire, other dad Lincs, Ragnar Ryking) in Wessex hunting Alfred... as they were kings of the areas, and were pagens (burning down churches and taking the chruchs' silver) you are very ignorant or stupid.. not sure which but either way I got no time for you Oh and wODINSday Thorsday, Freyersday.... a lot to do with British which just happens to bee Norse at the same time.
Tolkein was a christian but the mythology he drew from had ancient pagan roots.
The sources of inspiration for Tolkien were Norse Mythology, Homer, The Voyage of Saint Brendan, the Old English/Anglo Saxon language, the land itself that he lived in, the Kalevala, and of course his own Roman Catholic faith. Illuvatar is God, Morgoth is the Devil. The Valar are called "gods," but they are not worshipped, and the function they serve is more akin to the function of saints in Roman Catholicism. In The Debate of Findrod and Andreth they discuss how Jesus will eventually come physically into the world. The Numenorians did directly worship Illuvatar. In his letters, Tolkien explains why there is no religious heraldry or churches as we have them today. He says that it's a mythological era in which evil is physically present in the world, so when the heroes fight against Morgoth, Sauron, and Balrogs they are actually engaging in an act of religious devotion. The spiritual was physical. The change that occurs at the end of LOTR is that evil is no longer physically incarnate in the world, from then on, battles with demons will be spiritual rather than physical. That is the major change that occurs, not the departure of the elves (which actually doesn't happen).
March 25 is also Lady Day, or, the Feast of the Annunciation when Jesus began growing as a foetus in Mary’s womb. Until relatively recently it was New Year’s Day in England just as it becomes in Middle Earth after the rings destruction
Thanks - I have been a Tolkien fan for 50 years. I enjoyed your video on LOTR.
Interesting video and i have thought the same about LOTR is it pagan or christian. There is so much in the LOTR universe that i cannot put that in one single comment. But i like to say that even it has christian elements, it also has lots of very pagan, symbolic and even esoteric themes aswell. It is design to be read many times, it is like onion by each layer you notice something you didnt see before.
So like folk poetry, tolkien managed to make LOTR acting very similar and that is really fascinating.
Very well done, indeed! Thank you, & God bless! 👍
I think, if you felt like it, you could make the most comprehensive Tolkien channel.
There’s so many levels to Lord of the Rings and whilst there are many excellent channels, they tend to focus on the Tolkien Lore as he wrote it in isolation, without much reference to possible inspirations.
From this channel I’ve learned there’s clearly a lot of Merlin/Arthur/Robin Hood and native myth incorporated into LotR.
Whilst I don’t think any regions’ mythology can claim to be the sole source of Tolkien’s inspiration, I think the more you learn about our own land’s history and events, the greater a role they probably played in his shaping of Middle Earth.
Especially Wales! 🏴
It seems to me that by and large the more serious Tolkien fans are up in arms with regard to rings of power, whereas the more casual fans, maybe those who have only seen the movies and not read any of the books, don't seem to mind the mess that is rop.
I think Tolkien was simply trying to rectify and his understanding of his religious upbringing with the past. It was an attempt to make sense of the horror of the war he was in.
I think instead of expressly forbidding the creation of new ideas based on Tolkien's ideas is a form of nostalgia that is disruptive to creative thought a form of prison for the mind which I would deeply oppose. However I agree that the new series like many others of its kind it more concerned with using the brand to generate profit than they actually care for Tolkien's work and would discourage the creation of new works that do not remain true to these ideas.
This is fantastic work. I am going to need to relisten tonight. I have it on right now while knocking out some emails.
"Ihan vitun hyvä" (finnish). Really I did not find anything new for me, but how I see these things and I'm thankful for you for publishing this.
I hava heard "a rumour" that in former version of Tolkien Frodo could drop the ring and Gollum jumped after... which would be better, I don't know (as usually), but the core of the saga would not be the same...
And thank yöu really for your work.
Tolkien's religion, Roman Catholicism has been influenced by classical philosophy “Paganism” so ideally, I think you find the common principles in both. He is a student of philosophy you may find similar ideas to Plato and Aristotle in his works in my opinion. In the Middle earth world, you find gods or god-like beings such as, “Valar” who are subordinated to the One Supreme aka Eru Ilúvatar and there's also reincarnation in his works, especially in the race of elves, I remember reading a letter of some Bishop to Tolkien asking why there is reincarnation in his works? He gave interesting answers to them in defense of his views on reincarnation. Ideally, to say Middle Earth is Pagan or Christian influenced wouldn't be wrong either way you find both in the works however it is wrong to assume that Paganism doesn't influence Tolkien and that it has a strict association with Catholicism that some may argue. If you want a strictly Christian work look toward C.S Lewis's “Narnia” and compare it with Tolkien you find completely different outcomes. However, I don't argue that Catholicism isn't in the work of Tolkien either you will find it as an influence as well just as equal as Paganism.
Fantasy is fantasy.
As I know he read the Heimskringla I know there is a lot of Norse in it as well. He lived not too far away from me and I met him as a child. I have read the books about 13 times as a child, and I too have read the Heimskringla.. where you get to one part it gets repeated and it suddenly changes of the year by 100 years before the same lines turn up again As JRR would have put it..This is magick indeed!. . Gandalf you will see is in the Heimskringla and was a sea king who was beaten by Finehair on his way to unite Norway. It was hard to date things back then as not as much knowledge was available... like the fact that there were 3 Ragnars, Rothhbrok (typing changes often but we all know whho we mean I am sure) who might well have had two of Finehairs children as fostri, Ragnar Rykill another of Finehairs children.. he had a lot as he had 18 wives and the Pope still tries to get him written out of the history even though one of Finehairs sons was given to a Pope at the time it is said. These days we could quite easily put real dates in for the most part as we have dates of many if not all that happened and are mentioned in that time.
3rd Ragnar was Hairbreeks who dies in the snake pit.. my English research put the two who were fighting over the crown of East Anglea were in the 500s, but I would need more than just the one source to be able to varify it
@@simonbroberg969 Very interesting. Germanic myth and religion have always interested me
@@simonbroberg969 It would be interesting to see how our Germanic culture and people would be without Christianity and with our ancestral traditions. I believe we would be similar to the Rohirrim in character and culture, there, in fact, a book called, “Culture of the Teutons” gives us this very understanding. I would recommend it.
I have a lot of Germanic and Celtic ancestry, I am Swedish, Forest Finn, Dutch, Frisian, German, and Swiss German. I got English, Irish, Welsh, and Scottish ancestry as well my maternal grandfather's ancestors were Swedes that lived on the South coast of Finland but they also mixed with Finnish which is common today. I got a bunch of relatives in Sweden and Finland. My father's side is mostly Scottish, some roots in Orkney island formerly Norwegian lands
I consider myself a Pagan, I believe in the gods and I practice the philosophy of Neoplatonism. I am influenced by Hinduism and Esoteric Buddhism as well and was initiated into Advaita Vedanta under the name of Bhaaskara meaning the radiant one. I worship gods understand them as Platonist would in fifth century. Ideally, I believe the gods embody cosmological principles “henads”
I will say I quite living here in Mitguard I live in one of the Shires. Oxfordshire not far from where JRR lived. I also lived in Berkshire.
I thought the One Ring was based on both Plato's ring of gyges(?) But also the ring that fafnir had that was taken once he was slain (advari? Or something close to that?)
It's definitely both. Both are rings that corrupt the wearer
What changes specifically?
The ones he won’t enunciate public.
Excellent video! For sure, Tolkien was my introduction to Indo-European traditions.
Do you list somewhere the music you use in your videos?
It almost sounds like loading screen music for Europa Universalis 4
Great doc thank you!
I like that you rhyme "pagans" with "Baggins."
The premise that there is a clear divide between Christianity-- especially Catholicism-- and paganism is false, imo. There is a lot if evidence to suggest, for example, that the roots of Christianity lie in the Greek Mystery religions just as much as they do in Judaism.
At least 90% of Catholicism is Pagan. Most of Catholicism is plagiarized from Greek and Roman Paganism, as well as Platonism.
Thank God for Sam, otherwise it would of been a different ending.
Very interesting thank you very much
Tolkien doesn't use magic to accomplish the most important things, it's up to people to play their part. Using God or gods would be equivalent. While he is from the Western culture, including its religions, the books are Humanist (including elves, dwarves and hobbits). Yes people are fallible but there is redemption. Smeagol is among the most flawed and forsaken and yet he accomplished what no others could. Glorfindel definitely had the best plan of dumping it in the ocean, but Gandalf (Tolkien) knows that it's up to people to not pass the buck to other generations or live their lives in cowardice.
I have been thinking about this for over half my life. I do not completely agree with you on all fronts, and you got some very minor details not quite to my liking.
But you have given me something rich to ponder, and that is always welcome.
sounds like neo Platonism too
Amazing video
Banish the darkness from the fair lands between that the light of aerindel may shine again.
As far as I am concerned , that book can be more interpreted as having been influenced by all sorts of Pagan believes rather than ( Catholic ) Christianity or Norse theology ,even there are those who believe " the lord of the Rings " has many ( Pagan ) Gnostic sympolism , archetypes such as archons , demiurges , Sauron ( Ahriman / Grand Demiurgos) ,even Sophia as the guide towards knowledge and the journey back to the source represented by Gandalf, are all methaphorised , symbolised by their corresponding " dramatis personae" .
I don't think it can be. It's superficially pagan, but it's deepest roots are catholic.
@@InhabitantOfOddworld Catholicism is a great religion , and I admire it mostly due to the fact that it has incorporated in its core so many pagan indo-european credos , bear in mind Saint Agustinus perhaps the first official theologian of Chatholic church, had been a follower of Manichaeism , Saint Thomas Aquinas was an Aristotelian scholar.
@@majidbineshgar7156
That doesn't answer my point though. Look at Lord of The Rings.
That universe only has ONE God. All else are some order of angel or other created being.
Sauron, as well as his superior, Morgoth, are not evil gods unto themselves, but merely fallen angels in the same vein as Satan and other demons
The role of Aragorn as king, as well as his predecessors, is that of a leader who unites the different nations - very much a medieval, post-Christian concept, not a strictly tribal pagan one
LoTR is only thought of as pagan due to the various IP's that have sprung from it, like Dungeons & Dragons or Elder Scrolls
Pack it in, what's wrong with you heathens trying to muddy everything, Gandalf is not Sophia. This isn't something that has to be debated or have a video made on it, Tolkien himself told everyone point blank what it was.
consider the rings temptation. It harkens back to Abrahamic myths like the Garden of Eve- Original Sin and Classical myths like the Story of Persephone. How at the very end, when the temptation and curiosity is at its peak, humans are inherently flawed and prone to fail. But we also have the free will and ability to do what's good, which is what gives our lives meaning. Tolkien had a philosophy that good doesn't always win, but often relies on evil to enact it's will, or evil is self destructive. Frodo gives into his temptation at the crack of mount doom (an evil), and it's his mercy for Gollum which acts as providence through Illuvatar (Tolkien referred to this as "Eucotrastophe") who makes gollum dance off the edge into the fires, destroying the one ring.
The marring of Arda which corrupted man and made them aware of death, and begin to fear it, aswell as sew jealousy into their heart for the immortality bestowed upon the elves, instead of death being a natural part of life. Reminds me of original sin, when we were thrown out of the garden of unity, and became aware of our nakedness.
Tolkien's work definitely is probably predominantly Catholic, Tolkien even spent a good deal of his later years making sure it lined up theologically. Ultimately Eru wishes to create a beautiful song through free will, and essentially gets it, thus all apart of his plan.
P.S.S. Galadriel as well as Varda is supposed to represent the Lady Maria.
Solid take!
This is pure awesomeness!!!
According to Tolkien it is a Catholic work, and I think he was right.
Catholicism is at least 90% Pagan, most of it was copied from Platonism
Unambiguously Christian, as per Tolkien's own words. There have been entire books written on the layers of theological depth in LoTR.
I think gandalf had more of a hand in making that prophecy fulfilled than we give him credit for.
He knew that things were getting ready to kick off and he knew that a halfling was supposed to be a part of it so he went out of his way to make sure that Bilbo went on that quest with those guys.
Which he had no rightful business being there you could say that he was a burden for a good part of it in the few times he was useful a number of them were by accident
"Disrespects memory" "changes in name of current day need no elaboration."..
No no... I'll need elaboration, because that sounds like a whistle to me...
He was probably referring to the inaccurate depictions of certain characters who are described as fair-skinned(think, Miriel’s description by Tolkien vs Amazon’s depiction) Could also be the fact that half the elves look like short-haired hipsters and the massive time compression that basically ruins the Second Age. I think Karl Hostetter put it best; you can point out the fact that Tolkien didn’t envision black hobbits or elves in without being violently racist, assuming you’re arguing from a lore perspective.Even if the obviously questionable race-swapping wasn’t present, you’d still have the problem of time compression essentially ruining all the Second Age by cramming it in a small 200 year window. But if you’re one of those paranoid progressive lunatics who goes about hither and thither in search of dog-whistles that no one else hears, feel free to read into it whatever you like. Or perhaps you’re content with my explanation of why many don’t like Amazon’s multi million dollar fan fiction.
I'm wondering too. Objections to Black characters in a fantasy series (just because a white man writing in the 1940s didn't envision characters of color) don't seem reasonable to me, and I'm hoping Fortress had something more substantial in mind.
Woof woof.
Impressive. The Ballantine paperback edition was first published in the U.S. in October, 1965. That's when I happened upon it. I had recently graduated from Catholic University, and I remember thinking, after finishing The Return of the King, "The author's English, so he's clearly not Catholic, but it sure has a Catholic feel to it." But I also heard echos of the Volsunga Saga.
Both.
Great video 👍🔷️
Nature In Devine Order O.D.I.N. GRC
You should make a video on Robert E Howard's Conan and the comic series!
Satan and Lucifer should be seen as separate beings, they have different characteristics and influences, a bit like Goethe with his hot and cold devils ;)
Dear Fortress of Lugh I enjoyed your video. But I suggest you look in too mandaean holy book the Ganza Raba. The oldest and only gnostic religion still exists
Look into the chapter called The Journey of Hibel Ziwa.
You will see the real inspiration.
It's exactly the same story
I enjoyed this philosophy deep dive
i disagree with gandalf identification with odin, i think he is more similar to wainamoinen of kalevala. he is much more similar to gandalf
I often wonder why one of my family crest bloodlines is a blue fish holding one Golden Ring
Tolkien and the rest of his Inklings (Charles Williams, CS Lewis) were mystical Christians having more in common with Pelagius than Augustine.
they do, did you read C.S. Lewis's space trilogy? Very Same ....deal paganism and christian...i space no less, with references to H. G. wells and the tavistock institute with a character based on Tolkein himself as being a fisher king sort...with Merlin to save the day.
Beautiful
Can I just say your videos have incredible production quality without being clickbait or flashy??
Based on Tolkien's own words; Yes. It was explicitly written as a kind of pre-Christian mythology for the English people, as their own was clouded by Roman influence and the early arrival and adoption of Christianity. While he intentionally kept out overt references you can see some of the high ideals from pagan cultures tinted with themes of humility not often found in tales like the Ring Cycle or the Sagas preserved in Iceland. Tolkien was also a devout Catholic, which unlike the variety of Protestantism many Americans are familiar with does not reflexively reject truth, beauty or good practice found among the Pagan cultures (yes I know there are many examples contra that statement. Plenty of venues to discuss that, does not invalidate my point).
Paganism put in a Christian context, as a means to show that no matter how dark things become there is always light, and those willing to stand up and defend it, hence the full media attack and political deconstruction of the only story that truly empowers those who have no voice or means to defend what is truly good in this world.
I don't know what else to say, your channel is fucking dope. Thank you for all the great content!
Your commentary has matured to aptly reserved and respectable discourse, and I am quite glad for it.
Though, I will miss your well-researched rants on matters Celtic and arcane.
It is so very rare a thing to hear such thoughts from the informed mind.
We are our ancestors the ghost warriors were our ancestors
Did I just hear Xenogears soundtrack on this video? Nice.
I think you see a lot of the Christian influence in his magic. Magic in middle earth is mostly the province of divine beings and is something they are and how they act rather than in ritual and chanting. So not something you'd expect Frodo to throw around.
The way you describe it kind of makes me think of afro carribean religions, like voodoun, where the creator doesn't get involved in the world but the spirits He created do. It's not precise since in Voodoun the loa, the spirits, do get directly involved and worshiped but the idea is remiscent.
this is why there are no real crones in TLOR....they were the very heart of pagan magic
pagan or christian?
yes. the answer is yes.
Is it just me or does Smeagol come across as the literal scapegoat for the sins of the ring?
The View of the true meaning of Religions and the diverse mythologies into one and Marvelous phanteon Cosmology of fantasy
_"Lord of the Rings - Pagan or Christian?"_
tl;dr - Yes, but also no. And no, but also yes.
Oh, and shitshow in the comments section filled with people not realizing it can absolutely be either or both at the same time because the reading is highly subjective, especially in a work as long and thematically and philosophically complex as the Lord of the Rings.
Optimum and Astute!.
It's a bit of both paganism and christianity in a way that appeals to both groups.
Regardless of his reason for doing it having directly kept all the wreck references to any religion out of his book I left it open and available to a lot more people to read
CS Lewis was definitely better at writing christian themes into his story as Narnia is heavily christian probably more so than LotR.
The fact that you can't pronounce Pagan is almost a bigger insult than the Rings of Power show
The show is great so far!
Neither and both. Simple as.
Nope
@@PREPFORIT So what's the answer according to you?
@@PREPFORIT it’s a fictional world with a fictional pantheon including One God (similar to Christianity) but with a pantheon of lesser, partly elemental gods inspired by European religions. (Tolkien referred to the Valar as angels rather than gods but in earlier versions/writings he referred to them as gods). There are many other parallels both to Christianity and pagan European legends in his works. Again, it’s a fictional world so it’s not clearly either. But of course, Tolkien was a devout Catholic.
@@Vingul You have missed the hints of the mystical Tolkien dropped all around his works -
the clearest being him telling to the public ( in a joking manner) that he found Silmarillion and Lord of The Rings in his attic .
@@jdoc3118 something he said in a joking manner. Okay.
Im going to guess, both, it draws inspiration from the time Celtic and Christian stories and stonework were taking inspirations from each other especially in the North.
And Germanic. Tolkien was said to prefer Germanic tales over Celtic ones.
Most of it is pagan because Christianity has pagan origins so a lot of this is misunderstanding Tolkiens work, he even said himself one of his biggest difficulty’s writing the book we’re not taking inspiration out of the real world
finally someone who gets it
Could argue that a "god" beyond things while introduced to iron aged pagan europe is catholic it is also easy to argue that this concept also existed in polytheistic cultures such as Indic and khemtic. But do agree that it's an oriental concept even if it predates the roman empire, hebrew kingdoms, or orthodox christianity.
One thing I would die on a hill over is Tolkin's writing is inspired by welsh poetry, hermetic thought, and awen itself. Thus while neither Pagan or Cowan all can find inspiration from the tales of a modern bard.
You outdid yourself on this one!
Other than the fact that this is one of the greatest pieces of literature, American or otherwise, there is no greater blending of the Old Gods/beliefs and the new. It's profound how he blended Paganism and Catholicism.
It's too bad weirdos who have no appreciation for Tradition, History, Literature, Art, or decency whatsoever.
Hail the Aesir, Vanir, and Tuatha de Danann
You can't blend paganism and christianity, the two are fundamentally opposed.
@@EresirThe1st Obviously...... Blending in literature is not blending literally.
A Christianity without Jesus and with reincarnation isn't Christianity. Christianity requires a Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and a God the Son who died on the cross to save the world.
@@hermanhale9258 False. Protestants reject the Catholic concept of a trinity yet are still classified as Christian, and docetic sects (those who believed Jesus was not a corporeal man and never really physically died) were also considered Christian. Christianity is no more than the belief that Jesus is in some way a key figure necessary for salvation from an undesirable spiritual outcome. That can take an incredibly diverse array of forms.
@@wasd____ If Protestants reject the Trinity, they have only done so since the sixties, when the book Kingdom of the Cults was first published. That was the definition then, must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, and I stick by it. Very handy.
This video was made possible by the Christian disdain for anything not of itself.
And maybe, just maybe, ot allows us to give mercy to those of different paths who follow The Creator of All Life... there's many paths but the gate in is narrow...
I think he avoided religion on purpose. I can't think of a single act of piety in his stories. He wanted to write a myth-like parable for the modern age. WWI was a paradigm changer. The old chivalric ways of the aristocracy failed and it was won by the humble courage of every day people. He wanted a myth that reflected that. He was way ahead of his time on industrialization vs conservation.
I think that's what the Hobbits are meant to represent, they aren't particularly brave, strong, fearsome, inspiring, noble, martial and warlike or even wise, stoic etc, nor are they that beautiful
Hobbits are like simple average common folk, but in the end the story hinged on their perseverance and willpower, just like how ww1 was won by the average common soldier, not the aristocracy on their horses
I think it's a beautiful message that honors both the aristocracy and the common folk
Thank u for ur insight
@@Mcbignuts When I was in school we learned that WWI was a senseless holocaust of young lives. The USA got nothing out of it.
@@hermanhale9258 true, the zionists won that round
The ring is the key to MoreDoor's, Mordor
Is The Lord of the Rings Pagan or Christian? Yes.
Thank you .
If anyone needs a more direct telling of Tolkien s theology you may find it in CS Lewis .
These two and their works are to be explored in tandem .
Mere Christianity is not Tolkien's theology. They were friends but Tolkien was a Roman Catholic. C.S. Lewis was decidedly not. Tolkien might have appreciated Mere Christianity but clearly wouldn't think it went far enough. There were enormous differences in their theologies.