Lets Talk Buffy: The Vampire Slayer 🧛♀️
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- Опубликовано: 1 сен 2020
- Let's talk about the 90s-2000s cult classic "Buffy: The Vampire Slayer" and yell about all the things that still make us mad, make us love, and keep this series in our hearts. Spoilers for everything Buffy.
Also, I'm sorry that the credits audio is sooo loud, I know my audio is the #1 thing I need to fix overall. I'm doing my best, but I know I gotta keep trying. I'll crack that code!
🧛♀️Twitter: @WeekesPrincess
⚰️Patreon: / princessweekes
Buffy is owned by Joss Whedon and 20th Television.
The thumbnail art is by JRL Studios 
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PLEASE! When Buffy was in heaven Tara & Willow shacked up in Buffy’s house under the guise of “taking care of dawn” BUT THEN THEY PROCEED TO NOT GET A JOB AND SPEND ALL OF JOYCE’S LIFE INSURANCE WHICH BELONGED TO BUFFY ( or dawn actually since Buffy was dead) . And then when Buffy came back they literally said “hey I know you just came back from heaven, but you’re in crippling financial debt because we didn’t think about getting jobs” like ... WHAT?! You dragged her from heaven and made her deal with YOUR irresponsible financial decisions. I hated that part of Buffy.
you're right and you should say it.
as much as i love willow and tara? ur right and u should say it
Yeah I don’t know what the hell was wrong with Willow and Tara in that moment. As the show went on Buffy’s friends became pretty trash.
My best guess for where the money went was Buffybot maintenance.
🤣
10:57
Fun fact: Kendra having a Jamaican ascent was a last minute addition in production, meaning the actress playing Kendra (Bianca Lawson) had very little time to prepare. Also, even though she did go all in on learning the ascent, the producers would tell her to change her pronunciation to make it easier for the (presumably American) audience to understand her, even when she pointed out that a Jamaican person wouldn't talk like that. So if Kendra's ascent sounds rough and all over the place, the actress was definitely NOT at fault.
And they were going for a really obscure Jamaican accent on top of all that. Just a mess.
Accent*, my lovely
@@Leorubysun obscure*, my dear
As a Jamaican, I can say the accent issue was treated poorly. It's bad for many reasons.
However, one thing most non-Jamaicans don’t know is that there is a perfectly understandable Jamaican accent which can be spoken in The Queen's English. Accent =/= patois. Patois =/= accent. Think of what a Jamaican news anchor might sound like or watch videos of Miss Lou (Dr. Louise Bennett) addressing a non-Jamaican crowd.
Also, the stereotypical hard enunciation seen in media is, well, stereotypical. We do not, by any stretch, all sound like that. Admittedly, I've lived "a foreign" long enough that I've essentially lost my accent but it still annoys me that media depictions seem to think we all sound like we're from deep country Westmoreland.
(No offense to Westmoreland people.)
(Well, maybe some offense. Unu pure cuntry bum'kin! No lie!)
Black ppl were treated so poorly on this show. It was either Kendra, Principal Wood, or they didnt exist. 🤷🏾♂️
When Dawn appeared I swear I was sure I had somehow missed one or two episodes. Or that the network had made a programming error. It took me a while to understand that the absence of introduction was a deliberate choice! Now I think this narrative idea is genius, but at the time I was ANNOYED
Omg this was me. I was like WHAT EPISODES HAVE I MISSED ! The story surrounding Dawn was brilliant. I wasn’t apart of that hate Dawn train.
Lol same! I watched first run, so there wasn't the depth of information online to look up if I had forgotten some reference to a sister living with the dad after the divorce. I was so annoyed much of that season. But then the reveal happened and it felt like totally genius storytelling, even if I did find Dawn annoying as hell.
😂 yes! I had the dvd box sets and when she showed up I was like WHAT?! I was so impatient I immediately took the 📀 out, and put the last disc from the last season thinking I must have missed the last ep. Realized I didn't. Then just continued until it dawned (😉) on me.
Yes! Especially because I hadn't watched Buffy consistently (I didn't watch most of season 1 and had missed some of season 2) I was just like "did I somehow miss that she had a sister. I guess she had a sister all along". But I honestly love the plot twist
I loved being confused lol. And it made the reveal all the sweeter!
What we really need is an alternate universe where kendra and faith coexist and live as slayers, anya finds a meaningful existence sans xander, and buffy heads to LA and rescue Cordelia from Joss Whedon before they have their own series together slayer and seer style
yes i love this
All of that sounds pretty interesting to me.
There's apparently a comic reboot that features at least the first two things. Gonna try and check it out soon!
OKAY BUT ACTUALLY
Ooof, let's not even get into how they assassinated Cordelia's whole character😤
I went to a panel where James Marsters spoke on the Seeing Red episode. Apparently one of the female writers actually proposed that Buffy attempts to assault Spike, because of a personal experience of the writer when she was in a toxic relationship and she attempted to assault her own partner. Joss decided it would make Buffy too unlikable so he rewrote it for Spike, and, like you said, the writers just weren't prepared for the fallout of that choice. (He thought Spike "getting his soul" after would absolve him of the assault because... Joss...) Marsters said he had to go to therapy for a while to process after filming that scene.
Huh... That's interesting. That could work since a lot of the dialogue between them was about Buffy's dark side.
The issue then would be how Buffy would/should deal with it.
Totally understand that. Buffy assaulting Spike would have been interesting, lampshading rampant sexual assault on TV shows, and made for a much more interesting plot. That's just something to add onto the pile of 'yeeeeeeaaaahhhhh Joss is kinda not a feminist when you start digging.' Ugh. Spike never carried the emotional burden of that but you KNOW Buffy would have because she did anyway. -_-
Goddamn, that would be a LOT more interesting, and fit (how I remember) their s6 dynamic better than what made it to screen.
Technically Buffy had already assaulted Spike, though (Gone)
The female writer said she attempted to force herself on her boyfriend, yet switch the gender and it's a horror story, this is vile on a few levels.
Rewatching the show, it’s obvious that they made Andrew gay as a joke as season 6 progressed, and then kept him as a character in season 7 after the backlash of Seeing Red. But you could also interpret that his role in The Trio was meant to show that gay men can be just as misogynistic as straight men, especially when they’re seeking validation from them.
Especially since Tom lenk himself is an openly gay man
This and also that Andrew was in love with Warren, so it would make sense that he'd follow him to the end of the world and would ignore his toxic behaviour.
yup
The fact that they backpedaled on Andrew being gay by having him with two women in Angel. I know that he could be bi, but from the episodes he was in on Buffy, it made so much sense that he would be gay like... maybe I'm just reaching idk.
@@amberharris3065 They said they originally wanted him with a man and woman in that scene to imply he was bi. Not sure why they changed it.
I always say that BTVS is one of the only shows where the absolute best character is the main one. Buffy Summers is an outstanding fictional icon and there have been very few action heroes that live up to her standard.
I completely agree with that. She’s my favorite character.
Agreed until she falls in love with Spike 🤢🤮🤮🤮
But other than that yes we pretty much stan Buffy. I'm basing the character in my work somewhat on her (her agency, the fact that shes a female hero with a very important female identity and not just a male hero that got swapped to female for diversity sake, the fact that she often drives the plot forward instead of reacting to it a la many female protags)
@@bensloan3109 I think Buffys romantic drama made her more compelling because it showed that she was still just like other normal people
even though she was a badass
@@joshroberts1936 I don't think the majority of viewers would date someone who tried to assault them 😬
"She cheated on Oz? With XAAAAANDER???" sent me
I wasn't mad at Robin for trying to murk Spike.
To this day i havent watched all of season 7 because... what was the point? S7 was the definition of "the ends justify the means" only it didn't.
Another spicy take about s7: what Buffy did to all those girl around the world was fucked up.
@@razycrandomgirl To the girls that didn't know/consent to it around the world, yeah. Another perspective (I think the actual point of it all/the intended take-away) is that in a show that's all about the world/life giving Buffy no choice but to sacrifice over and over again, to the point where she "doesn't know how to live in the world, if these are the choices", for the first time, she makes a choice that actually changes the world.
@@heatherwhite3881 That's great for Buffy and Willow making that choice (and taking all those other girls' choice away). Its very "white feminist TM" of the show, but then again it was written by white feminists.
Robin was the only decent man she ever showed any interest in. Too bad she hates herself.
@@razycrandomgirl Yeah, as I said, to the girls who didn't know/consent around the world, that was a violation. The intended message is a positive one. Feminism means different things for different people, I don't see the merit in harping on it if it isn't your own brand of feminism. I enjoy picking apart the stories, and looking at alternative readings, and getting into the problematic, unintentional aspects in the stories and characters....but eventually it just becomes an exercise in extreme arrogance. I understand what they were going for, I appreciate the work they put into creating this for us, and I thank them because I know women in real life who's lives were saved by that episode ✌️
I always thought the best thing about the way buffy and spike's relationship was depicted was its handling in season 7. Spike really does change, but he changed for the wrong reasons, and the interesting consequence of that is that after he is a better person he realizes he cannot, and should not, have the thing that motivated him. Spike is redeemed as a person, and wins back buffys respect, but thats all. There are no just rewards waiting for him. No relationship with buffy, no happy ever after, just a chance to fix some of the damage he caused.
^this. Thanks
Yes! I agree 100%
And people forget he doesn't have a soul when he attacked Buffy. People can separate Angel's halves, but they can't for Spike? I'm a survivor, and so I still have a lot of rage, but I think it's an unfair presentation of the assault as being something a mentally and morally capable person did. He was not mentally well. He was not morally capable as a soulless vampire within the lore. That is why it makes sense that he brings the sun to the elders. He doesn't get the reward, but he does get understanding and forgiveness, and narratively that's beautiful. If the soul canon was different, it'd be an entirely different story.
@@Perceptionreflection yeah, in fact i'd say it means a lot that souless spike wanted to help buffy and the scoobies, wanted to save people and that after buffy kicks him and he stops trying to force her, you can see in his face he knows he did something wrong. and most importantly, souless spike choose to get his sould back because he wanted to be better ( even if it was not for the right reasons). angelus never wanted to be angel again, never wanted his sould back ir improve in away and didn't have an ounce of compassion even for the people his soulfull self loved. angelus killed his own little sister, souless spike first idea was to turn his mother so she would not die of age or sickness and would be always with him.
i think that means a lot, that spike was always the better person ( better vampire?), because even souless he was capable of a minimum of good emotions ( even if twisted by the soulessness) and of wanting to be better while angelus was an absolute monster.
Check out Passion of the nerds episode breakdown of Buffy and Angel. He just did fool for love. ruclips.net/video/DYPF0hgPjzY/видео.html it's so good!!!
Also whether you like Dawn or not you have to agree that she makes Buffy a more interesting character.
I think it's really true--people who don't like dawn don't like young women. I've had dawn as a student a bunch of times. I have two nieces who are kind of dawn. I have a lot of respect for how annoying and bratty and smart and funny she was. she feels like a real person right out of the gate, which makes sense in season five but compare it to how stereotypical the main characters started out being in season one.
Tom SwiftyPhilo I honestly hate that argument. Nobody hates Sansa or Dawn for being “feminine” or for being teenage girls. I hated Sansa because she betrayed her sister for a guy and then did absolutely NOTHING but be dragged around 5 seasons. I hate Dawn because she is the most annoying, offensive stereotype of a teenage girl. She’s loud, stupid, her voice SCREAMING grates on my soul, and she does nothing but make stupid choices, get herself in trouble which Buffy then has to rescue her from. There was no reason for her character to exist and her presence completely changed Buffy’s character and made her far less likeable/relateable. Nobody needed Buffy as a mom/older sister character. Her sudden personality change essentially made Joyce’s character unnecessary and of course she was sidelined by her illness and then ultimately killed off. And I love Michelle Trachtenberg. Harriet the Spy was and is still my favourite movie. My problem is that plenty of men (Joss included) do not know how to write compelling female characters without making them “masculine” in some way.
@@Ilikefrogs.. I still can't get on with Dawn as she is in the show either, like I think there was so much missed potential every time I hear the side of someone who did enjoy her but every time I rewatch I'm still making very conscious and/or forced excuses for her screeching and chocolate milk face. I agree with you as well that there was a want for Buffy to have some sort of mother role as like, a part of her growth from a teen into an adult and that always rubs me the wrong way
Yeah. What she brought out is what a terrible mother Buffy is. Granted, Buffy is 21 & trying to parent a teenager, but we've never seen her so out of her depth before.
@@Ilikefrogs.. You're defs right about Sansa. I agree there's no more reason to bring in Dawn than any other. But it does work with the themes of the fifth season--as buffy grows more powerful there's this other side of her growing more vulnerable. Most people who like Whedon are either on board for his hard left-turns in plot, or else resigned to them. Meanwhile When I watch a scene with dawn I just see a cute, kind of clueless girl trying to grow up. I like that.
As a lesbian who has dated man in the past I always thougth that Willow was a believable lesbian who, as myself, fell victim to compulsory heterossexuality. When you are sixteen you always think you are in love, specially when everybody expects you to be, and you have no frame of reference as to what it really is like. I only fully realized I was gay after I dated a girl, and while I did care about my male partners, after dating a girl I realized it was on whole other level. Compulsory heterossexuality is a very real thing, to the point that I barely know any lesbians who never hooked up with men, even though the opposite doesn't apply to straight women.
Exactly!
It was so realistic. Remember when she was a vampire she hits on herself then says she thinks she little gay. They knew all along.
It's just that her relationship with Oz and the emotions involved on her part seemed very genuine. When he disappeared, she was heartbroken. No sign of relief that the charade was over. Also, Whedon himself said nowadays she'd officially be classed as bisexual but back then he wasn't allowed to.
As a bi guy, I've gotta say, I'd like to keep her as one of our very few icons. C'mon, we don't get many. Bloody bi erasure always getting in the way (which I am not accusing anyone of in this comment section. On the show, totally.)
@@leahhart3585 She is referring to her doppelganger as "I" rather than "She" As in: "I'm so evil! ... and kind of gay". She probably wasn't referring to herself, even with the last part. And Joss was planning to out Faith as the gay one at that time.
@@crimsonsmirk thank you!!! As a bisexual girl I feel that even though Willow was classified as a lesbian she definitely came of bi her relationship with OZ was very genuine and beautiful just as her relationship with Tara was
I’m glad we have her as a Bi icon as much as I wanted to be Buffy I always felt more akin to Willow
As someone who both loved Kendra and Faith, I am disappointed they never got to share screen time.
I totally agree with you about season one: it's slight but that's because it's the season that establishes the basics of what the audience should expect out of the show.
As for villains, my favorite will always be the Mayor, mostly because his relationship with Faith is a great foil to Giles' relationship with Buffy: endlessly supportive, endlessly permissive (except about swearing!), all to encourage the worst in her.
And season four was *awful*, mostly because it had to follow up from season three, which would have made for a *perfect* end to the series. Wheelspinning and scrambling to come up with something to do, basically.
Yes! He was a lot of fun. And he actually cared about Faith, right?
@@freddogrosso9835 that's a complicated question, I'd say. I want to say "yes, but?"
The mayor is delightful to watch
@@chibikonatsu Nothing. It's just nice to have a well rounded chracter as a villain. Not just pure evil.
Said this earlier in your chat, but: as someone who was following the show mostly as it came out, Dawn's introduction as a sudden unexplained appearance works really well, because it's a plot point. The characters think that she's always been there, because some magical monks put her there and integrated her seamlessly into their memories. As the viewers, we are supposed to be confused by her appearance, but by the end of season 5, we understand that she's been artificially implanted into the characters' lives through magic. It's actually a brilliant subversion on the trope of an added character, and it makes Buffy's choice to treat her as her real sister and sacrifice herself so much more powerful. I really love Dawn as a character and the emotional weight she gives Buffy. Like you said, she grounds her.
Me too. Plus also one of the only teen played by an actual teen, and not the usual teenage adult hybrid that is still an issue today. And even though I wasn't that close to her kind of teen myself, but she still is to this day, one of the most real young teen I've seen in tv.
It's an acrobatic feat of storytelling and I've loved it since day 1. I loved that she came from nowhere. From day one, suddenly this kid exist, out of nowhere, I'm like what the hell and I loved it.
And yeah, I've always found her existence just brilliant. And it enters the conversation of one of the most fascinating subject to me : life. In the real world there's not that many ways to be born, okay, but that's where fiction comes at play. What makes a person? On that front the stories dealing with artificial intelligence, clones are fascinating too.
Here, Dawn wasn't born from a mother, but she is real. The monk created a real person. A real kid. They made a life.
Also after every show I've seen pulling a disappearing (or appearing) sibling act (but like just because they can't follow their own continuity gaaah), I love it even more.
There are hints to Dawn prior to her appearance so she didn't come completely out of nowhere. They're subtle so you have to look for them. But the clues make it even more interesting when she shows up because you realize she was planned out in advance as far back as season 3.
I grew up watching reruns of Buffy, and I've probably seen every episode 10 times. In my most recent re-watch in the beginning of quarantimes, I was struck by how much fricken gaslighting Buffy experiences. Buffy has a very valid feeling, and then everyone else tells her that it's wrong.
The big one that bothered me the most was everything with Riley, particularly when he left. Buffy's mom is dying, Dawn is the key, they have no idea how to fight Glory. And Riley is whining that he doesn't feel NEEDED. So then he essentially cheats on her and gives her an ultimatum. And when she says K BYE the show frames it as a bad decision? Xander gets to make a little speech about how wrong Buffy is, and they use him and Anya to juxtapose to the audience what a good relationship looks like, and oh look how nice and good Xander is. If only Buffy would choose Nice Guys like him.
I was so infuriated watching those episodes. Obviously the Riley arc is all kinds of bad, but they really did Buffy wrong in every way possible.
seriously, fuck Riley forever, he was the worst character and I wanted to rip Xander's traitorous little heart out for that speech he made about how it was all her fault. Riley and Xander can both burn in hell like they deserve
I HATED how they treated Buffy for not stroking Riley's ego. What decent person sees their partner's parent dying and makes it about them? He was such an awful character from day one, so insecure and needy! The only man who ever truly treated Buffy well was Angel, he only ever wanted the best for her. Angelus doesn't count, because he didn't have a soul.
Hey blame the fans. The writers admitted that the fans weren't happy with Buffy in a happy relationship. They had to quickly scrap Riley to try and save the show. Could it have been handled better? Sure, I guess. But it only happened because the fans wanted Buffy miserable.
@@TyrBarghest I call BS. Riley was an issue from the start, it just wasn't as overt as getting nasty with vampires while his girlfriend's mother slowly died. He didn't just wake up one episode being a douche.
@@mydogeatspuke Define "getting nasty with vampires". My memory is a bit hazy due to how long it's been since the last time I watched Buffy but I don't remember him cheating on Buffy with a vampire. I remember him feeding a vampire and that's it.
My thoughts on the whole “is Willow a lesbian or bisexual?” thing is that it just wasn’t handled that well. Her relationship with Oz was portrayed as just as real as her relationship with Tara, and the fact that she constantly refers to being “a lesbian now” kind of leans in to this idea that people one day “turn gay”. HOWEVER, sexuality is a fluid thing and I fully agree that it’s very possible for someone to change their identity over time. The thing is, Willow could be great lesbian representation or great bisexual representation if the writers had bothered to have those conversations and portray an accurate coming out journey. As it stands, the whole thing ends up a little muddled, most likely because this was a case of straight writers just not really bothering with the details. I personally always read Willow as bisexual (I think the fact that she mostly used “gay” - which can be an umbrella term - as opposed to “lesbian” which is unequivocally homosexual was another factor in this), but that’s also probably because as a bisexual kid I was desperate for representation.
I think at this point, it’s easy to make a case either way, and since the show hasn’t been on air for years, it doesn’t matter too much: lesbian!willow and bisexual!willow both seem like fine interpretations considering how wishy washy the actual text is 🤷♀️
and I think she's kinda gay...
straight man writers writing for teenage girls is really the essence of the problem, like you said-- and as a lesbian who dated boys in high school, i would never begrudge my bi sisters from viewing willow as bi! i think it's an interesting conversation to be had, especially because, like you said, the text is pretty useless on the matter.
Yeah as a bi I would've been happy to just have like a scene or even a sentence where bisexuality is even a question, even if the answer is "no".
@@fearingmusic I definitely hear your pain and frustration. but they're right, too--part of bi erasure is that if you're bi it's necessarily 'just a phase.' it's hard to make the audience take the change seriously and so you end up with this unsatisfying compromise of dropping any 'straight' desires she might ever have had because to acknowledge them too much would be to open the door to 'flighty willow. just a phase'
For what it's worth, I read at the time that it wasn't the writers who had an issue with bisexuality, it was the network that completely panicked at even hearing the word. They were barely okay with Willow being a lesbian.
Y'know, it suddenly occurs to me that despite appearing on the show for 3 seasons, i'm not sure tara is terribly well fleshed out as a character, and maybe that's why the relationship could read as less interesting? Yes, she's beautiful but not overly aware of it, shy but still very available to willow from the get-go, quietly witty, wise, fundamentally sweet and nurturing, witchy but not so witchy that she overshadows willow; but to me that's really just standard-issue love interest setup that defines her as being ready to love and be loved by willow. The only occasion i can find where tara's identity independent of willow is really referenced--i'm not counting the brain drain, that was her being victimized very specifically because of her relationship with the gang--is that one episode where her family claims she's half demon and tries to spirit her away. Even that i think of as a very self contained, "we dealt with it so we needn't ever mention my family again" situation. When so much of her is defined in relation to willow and she's so rarely allowed to express desires and opinions that are inconvenient to willow's character arc, that just doesn't give her a lot to work with. Even her death--while powerful in some ways through its sheer meaninglessness--is dealt with so exclusively as a catalyst for willow's progression that it just feels like a fridging to me at the moment.
By contrast, oz comes in from the get-go with his own interests (like his rock band) and his own issues (struggling with lycanthropy) that are maintained long term. Willow engages with those issues and interests as a part of exploring her relationship with him, even as he engages with her interests by connecting with the scoobies. They're committed to each other while they're together, but they're not so thoroughly glued at the hip that they cease to have identities independent of each other, and each is allowed to be front and center of episode arcs in a way tara mostly is not. That lends their relationship a degree of complexity that i don't see with willow and tara.
For all i love how seminal willow/tara was as a prominent same-gender relationship on mainstream tv, and for all the show really tried to lean hard into feminism and the complexity of its femme characters, i feel like the writers really missed an opportunity to broaden tara as a woman with her own concerns that aren't so easily subsumed into willow's.
YES. Tara seems to exist only to give Willow something to bounce off of. Even just exploring WHY Tara is so compliant and nurturing would have made her a more interesting character. Her death was horrible but it didn't affect me as much as even Jenny Calendar's death did, because Jenny had her own character arc and interesting background (technopagan! Romani!)
Agreed. I was always hoping that Tara would get to do more in the show because I genuinely loved the warmth Amber Benson brought to the show. And one thing I loved about season 6 was getting to see Tara interact with the other characters without being a subset of Willow.
I think the show gave Anya more of an independent identity than Tara. How often did we see a chunk of an episode following Tara by herself? I think Anya more often had her own independent subplots than Tara did.
I definitely think it would have improved the show if Tara had had more going on in her life independent from Willow, even if it was perfunctory. It would have created a fuller sense of Willow and Tara's relationship being between two fully realized individual people.
YES I AGREE!! Like Tara really didn't have much outside of being something for willow like I'm late to the show and knew Dark Willow was coming and I thought her turning dark was going to come out something more than her girlfriend dying it kind of felt like a let down
I knew Tara would never be anything more than a side character just made to add to Willow character arc because during her whole time on the show she only appeared in the opening credits on "Seeing Red". Anya and Tara started out as their own characters then later became attached to Xander and Willow respectively then joined the Scoobies. But Tara was never given the same chance as Anya to become a more fleshed out character. Which really sucks because she was so unique and sweet.
I actually like Willow but you're right she's definitely abusive in many parts of the show and is selfish in how she uses her power. I wish she wasn't written like that but it was interesting to see her fly off the handle.
Have you read any of the comics that follow?... bc damn, she gets even worse with Kennedy
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And, was made Willow's fall so good was that often those who are weak and meek are the ones who most abuse power once they have it, because they have no experience with it, and the thrill of abusing it goes to their heads.
@@HeatherHolt correct me if i’m wrong but doesn’t she run away without telling anyone and starts dating another girl without breaking up with kennedy
My own searing hot take to add to this impeccable pile of galaxy brain takes is that Tara and Buffy getting together in season six and leaving Willow's toxic ass in the dust would have been truly tasty.
That actually would have been awesome!
OMG YES
I always thought Joyce had great chemistry with everyone on the show but holy shit Spike x Joyce is the galaxy brain take I never knew I needed! We need more vampire x milf content!
This kinda thinking plays into "women and men can't be friends" though.. like, Spike and Joyce enjoy each other's company, obviously. But it doesn't strictly follow that they would be/ could be attracted to each other romantically or sexually. I love Spike and Joyce precisely for their friendship, and shipping just feels wrong here (imo).
@@neestovekin8251 it's not mutually exclusive. We can enjoy the canon platonic relationship and also have fun asking "what if they fucked?"
@@neestovekin8251that's true, and also Buffy would totally kill him 🤣
I was actually in college while Buffy was airing season 3. And I remember I brought it up in my Mass Media class - mentioning that it was a well-made show. For the entire rest of the semester the teacher and entire class made it a running gag whenever the teacher wanted to compare something to some other work, he’d be like, “Or *THEIR* favorite show, Buffy the Vampire Slayer...” and the whole class would laugh. Haha
I literally think about that class and that professor at least once a week and wonder if they ever discovered the show and realized...Damn, they were right. lol
"But it's called Buffy the Vampire Slayer. How could anything with that title be good? Also, what is irony? I'm a college professor, not a dictionary!"
@@CERTAIND00M
That's funny because the title (including the main character's name) was chosen to sound ridiculous.
There were numerous college courses that were based completely off the show. It's a masterpiece a flawed masterpiece
Shanna Farley totally! It was a big chunk of my Gothic Literature subject
@@benjamintillema3572 Exactly. That's actually the reason my pretentious, horror-loving 12 year-old self gave Buffy a chance in the first place. As a horror fan, I got it immediately from the title.
"The cheerleader isn't supposed to be the hero in a horror movie. She's supposed to be the fodder."
And a young, less-creepy, more creative Joss Whedon said, "But WHY?"
And to that, 12 year-old me said, "Brilliant."
And he's been saying it ever since.
This video was absolutely on point. I have such a hard time finding ANY honest discussions about Buffy. Usually it amounts to "are you team Bangle or team Spuffy", but no one ever wants to get into the dirt. Buffy has been my favorite show since 1998, and in over 20 years of being in the fandom this is the most refreshing discussion of the show I've ever seen.
So glad you enjoyed
Kendra really did die for NO good reason and I will be bitter about it till the day I die
"I wore out my laptop going episode to episode"
Speaking of laptops with cd/dvd trays...I tried to open the dvd tray on my laptop the other day but forgot I was in the future.
Have you tried turning 2020 on and off?
@@MagicznaPanda Oh my god, can we? Please?
oh man, I did this like three years ago. I needed to install something via cd (????) and plumb forgot that's not a thing anymore.
spike x joyce was not the hot take i was expecting but u know what i like it
Joyce has chemistry with literally everyone though.
@@MrBazBake Joyce and Giles were awesome together
@@minerva9104 I'll know I've gotten truly old when I find joyce and giles unironically hot. it's starting though.
Right?! And yet I am HERE FOR IT. I loved every time they were on screen together, and let's be real. He's immortal. Probably better to go for someone with their shit settled and a couple more decades of life experiences to discuss.
imagine an au where Joyce doesn't die and she's just getting her back blown out by her vampire boy toy for the latter two seasons.
I so agree with your point about the trio. The other thing that I find really interesting about them is that they reflect our tendency to dismiss nerdy "beta" misogyny as harmless when it is actually very very harmful. The trio isn't really taken seriously until the actually start murdering women. They're framed as a silly nuisance that aren't competent enough to be "real" villains and I felt like the Scoobies' underestimation of how dangerous they really were was part of why the trio was able to get so far and cause so much harm to women. Pop culture detective has a really great video that explored this trope in media called "The Adorkable Misogyny of The Big Bang Theory."
edited to correct the title of the video
What was weird to me was like Angel and Angelus are clearly different people. Human soul carrying the guilt of what he did as an evil demon vampire vs the evil demon vampire. Spike with a soul vs spoke without a soul are treated like the same dang character. What?
In season 7 Spike wasn't Spike, he was William - someone none of the other characters had ever met before. It would have been interesting to see that dynamic if it was written properly.
I feel like the whole shows mythology around Souls was completely messy. They tended to go back and forth in what it was.
When angel shows up at Giles' house he points a cross bow at him and refuses to let him in despite knowing he has a soul again. The scoobies do hold a grudge against Angel
@Hans Hanzo Spike was also way more human then Angelus. But also, Spike when he was a human was a good person, a nice guy and very sensitive. Angel was a drunk that stole from his father and didn't care about anything.
And after Spike turned; he still loved his mother.
Joss has stated that it is likely that spike retained more of his humanity than other vampires. It’s not really a true explanation but it is one that I can live with since he was such a soft boy in his human life and he never really fell out of love with Drusilla for years and years. Which doesn’t seem to be a super common thing the Gorch brothers are vampires who live together for a long time but they are literally siblings.
Oh no my weakness, buffy is my problematic fave. This is my favorite kind of discussion.
I so agree!
Never understood the hate for Dawn, she was a teenage girl who had an inferiority complex to her superhero sister, and I think she showed a great growth through the seasons. On the other hand, Xander was just the worst. I think if we compare Xander from the first season and last season he is the same character who didn't evolve at all. He treated Anya the same way he treated Cordilia, like he was better than them and hurting them because of his insecurities. To be honest, I think Buffy was a much better friend to Willow and Xander then they were to her, she was always there for them understanding them and
all they did was they judged her and all the others for all 7 seasons, but they were doing a lot worse things then Buffy. The girl needed to find better friends who appreciated her and her badassery more lol Unpopular opinion, but I think we are ready for a reboot, the show's mythology is great and unique that I think it could be done very well again of course with another titular slayer who should be poc (without Wheadon involvement of course)
i like what you wrote.
Hard disagree that Xander didn't change at all
I like everything except for a reboot. Also, I prefer a black woman get a new show and not a reboot. There's other fantasy/ sci-fi. out there that a black woman can break ground on, I would rather an adaptation of an anime or manga. Keke Palmer would do well cast as the lead in "My Next Life as a Villainess: All Routes Lead to Doom!".
I'm hopeing not for a reboot, but just a continuation of the series in a way. I mean there were thousands, if not millions of slayers awakened, there has to be some great stories to be told following some of them.
@@Lycandros I'm down for that.
Dawn made Xander's character irrelevant and she served his purpose better than he did. After all the Key stuff was over, Dawn played the part of the "normal" one of the group. She keeps Buffy, both the character and the overall show, grounded in the "real" world. I get why people hate her, but I think she was a really strong and interesting character. One of the few good episodes in season 7 is when she thought she was a potential.
OK but is Dawn really out here giving speeches that bring tears to your eyes??? Specifically his speech about dawn like bruh i needed that lol
I do agree though they basically play the same role in the show.
it had genuinely never occurred to me that the sex between Willow and Tara in the 'once more with feeling' episode was sexual assault. even later in the episode its like 'oh no willow how could you breech my trust like this' but Now that scene seems So Sad and So Mean and even tho i love tara and willow i dont think they could have ended up together because i dont think willow ever Really changed, or is the kind of person who wont abuse her power
My theory is that Xander cheats on Cordelia because he knows she's better than him. There's a study showing that men in relationships with powerful women are more likely to cheat on their partners in order to assert dominance, so his hostility toward Anya, his aggression toward Cordelia, it's all driven by this sense that he can't stand being a sidekick. Willow on the other hand is someone he could emotionally manipulate because of her long time crush on him, so he uses that to undermine his relationship with Cordelia. This also explains why he ends up dating a teenage girl, he can't handle being in a relationship with a peer, he has to dominate women.
Anyway, yeah, Xander is Joss Whedon.
I believe Willow cheated on Oz because of her inability to feel the strong sexual attraction she expected to with an ideal male romantic partner. So when Xander showed interest and took advantage of her insecurities, it validated her years of crushing on him romantically since she was a little girl. He basically made her feel like she had both given up too soon and that her childhood feelings up through high school were real all that time.
So Willow needed someone to sort of show her that her romantic but non-sexual feelings toward men since before puberty meant she wouldn't have to confront her homosexuality directly while Xander needed someone to worship him unconditionally.
Just a theory (that only works if Willow is canonically gay and not bi).
Wow yeah this sounds spot on
Spot on! I hate Wheddon, too.
Oh my goodness I died reading “Xander is Joss Whedon” 😂😂😂
I only agree with wheddon is xander.
Everything else is a hot take but entertaining none the less. Nice head cannon
Wow, your theory for Xander was excellent. Very, very true.
24:20 one thing I've always loved about when we see Willow and Tara first get together is that when Oz finds out he's not fetishising them or anything, he's just genuinely hurt that Willow moved on. He treated their relationship as something real and serious and I just reallt apreciate that. It felt genuine.
Haven't seen the video yet but I hope she talks about Kendra.
Press F for Kendra
F
F
F
F
Kendra what a Queen.
FFFFFFFFFF
Have I seen Buffy? No.
Am I still going to watch? Yes.
Brock M. OMG GO WATCH BUFFY 🙌❤️❤️❤️
@@YunierViada yeah Buffy rules.
Just a friendly tip: the "HD version" is actually lower quality than the original broadcasts for like the first 2-3 seasons. So I'd recommend trying to find the original version, at least for the first seasons.
@@YunierViada I want to, but my ad version of Hulu scares me off lol
Have fun!
Thank you for the hot take on Dawn, I totally agree, Dawn is one of my faves! Her sisterhood with Buffy is so meaningful and important for the development of the show.
I wish people at least gave the show credit and how they introduce dawn. That was by far at the time one of the most interesting ways to introduce a character and really threw everyone through a loop. Lol dawn made Buffy even more human. She was basically her child. Made from her. It’s a beautiful relationship
I never thought about the idea of Spike/Joyce but now that you said it, it's all that I want. Spike as the stepdad Buffy doesn't want would have been such a better dynamic than what we got.
I never thought about it either, but now I desperately need this fanfic in my life!
au where Joyce doesn't die but she's still not in it much because she livin for that dick.
I would never want to see a storyline were Spike is Buffy’s stepfather however I could take a whole comic series or separate show of spike/Joyce has a couple separate from everything. Lol
They always had such a fun dynamic together I really loved her making him Coco and him venting about his relationship drama it was just wholesome and beautiful and spike needed a good mother. When you know how he lost his mother and the last things that he heard from her it makes sense that he would gravitate towards Joyce who truly loves her child and is kind to people around her.
@@moviemoth4192 Not her stepfather no. Spike isn't serious boyfriend material. More like mid life crisis boy toy material.
im late to this but i agree with EVERYTHING
can we also talk about the fact that spike did NOT in fact leave at the end of s6 to intentionally get his soul back BUT THEY JUST PRETEND LIKE THAT WAS HIS INTENTION FOR THE ENTIRE S7 AND IT WAS NEVER EVER ADDRESSED
IM SO MAD BUFFY NEVER FOUND OUT ABOUT THAT
I died laughing at the look of pure disgust on your face when you talked about Willow cheating on Oz with XANDER 😂 It’s been years and I still don’t know what the point of that storyline was.
Also I agree that Willow is trash, but that’s part of what I liked about the character. Willow becoming the Big Bad in season 6 felt earned because we had seen her do progressively terrible things over the course of the show. Willow wanted to do a spell to get Oz back in season 4 and in season 6 she used a spell to erase Tara’s memory. In both cases she is trying to control and manipulate partners who had made it clear they wanted to distance themselves from her. Willow was doing sketchy stuff since almost the beginning. I didn’t like Willow as much in the later seasons, but I always thought she was a much more interesting character than Xander.
I also love the fact that Giles saw it in her from the start. He handled it wrong in the end and pushed her away, removing a support net that might've helped her, but he saw right through her. He knew it was the nice/quiet ones you've got to be careful of r.e. power.
Having just rewatched BVTS with my wife, I can see your points and even agree with some of them. I wish Kendra and Faith had been reversed where Fatih came first, went evil. And was killed. Then Kendra came in and kicked butt, but didn't know how to handle Buffy amd became a wanderer.
I also prefer Spike to Angel as a character as he was always far more interesting.
And Emma Caulfield out acted everyone on the show by miles in just one scene in "The Body." The scene where Anya complains no one will tell her why. I still cry at that scene every time.
Every time I watch that episode I think I've watched it enough times to not turn into a puddle. Then when Anya breaks...puddle.
I bawl like a baby when Anya breaks down. Every. Time.
That episode kills me, it’s the only one I skip on rewatch
Its weird I prefer angel over spike in his own show but in buffy spike is way better than angel.
I enjoyed the tension in the earlier seasons between Spike and Buffy but because it was framed as his charm was part of his villainy. Getting Buffy to doubt her goodness was part of his villainy. I never actually wanted it to be a canon relationship. I actually wish they would have given Spike his own love interest who was on his level (a demon, another vampire, whatever) because I liked him as a main character and I liked him learning about humanity. But boy, was it dumb for Buffy to get involved. That whole thing was so toxic and problematic.
I feel like Joss has said before that he was choosing between making Xander and Willow gay. Honestly I think they were hinting towards Spike/Xander and I would've liked that SO much better than Spike and Buffy.
@batspleenfriend He made the right decision.
Buffy's `involvements´ with Spike were consciously conceived as "toxic and problematic". That was the point concerning Buffy's, let's say, darker desires - and her traumas -, and Spike's utter humiliation just when his dreams of Super-Buffy, of course also of succeeding in the cherished, manly, male conquest of the strong female, had come true.
I really liked those entanglements, even the bleak abusiveness (heavy stuff), and how they played out, with no one getting away unscathed. They, and many other critized aspects of the show, were like a peek at the dismal, or grim, serious underside of campy Buffy and her Scooby Gang. (That's why, for example, Melina Pendulum's "bad three" is such a smart take.)
@@ingwerschwensen8115 I'm sure it was intentional. But I think it was a poor choice given where the characters went. I agree with the video that the assault was the line where it went too far. In general, I think the writing would have been better if it didnt turn into a full blown romantic arc and if it was just an unhealthy fixation/hookup
@@brees3 Thanks for your comment. I myself am not so sure anymore compared to how I sound in my comment(s). I already thought, I should rewatch Buffy once again. This time with a more differentiated set of questions, looking at the structure as well as the critical points of the narrative in light of these newer discussions (I'm going on sixty, have been a fan of Buffy for many years now - after I got my hands on the original english version, which in Germany in those days was still a question of the amount of money one was ready, or able, to invest). I definitely have been too cavalier about Spike's rape attempt for example. Viewing it mainly as a desperate but lastly helpless measure by a defeated man. The problems with this view, which I'm rather embarressed by, I should - and could, really - have made clear to myself much earlier. But when's the time I last talked with anyone about the show? Let alone, in form of a serious discussion. No excuse, but part of an explanation.
Okay, thanks again. I'll find space to squeeze the seven seasons in once more.
Kendra's character also bugged me because the foil existed to show us that Buffy's independence was her asset. Kendra was portrayed as a character that didn't "think for herself" and almost subservient. It reinforced for me the idea that only white women are independent and only white brand of feminism works and poc women cannot think for themselves and need white women to liberate them. Contrast that with treatment of Faith where Faith is too independent once again reinforcing the narrative.
The biggest issue is that Buffy just doesn’t have nearly enough representation. And the POC are typically shown as foreign or “other”. Not until the final season did they have a prominent reoccurring black character.
With that said, I still love the show and is moved by Immensely.
While I was super-pissed that they killed Kendra off. I think they wanted to show the balance Buffy had in being the Slayer. Kendra strict upbringing vs the way Faith was raised and what happens there. Both Kendra and Faith didn't have the lifeline the Scooby-gang gave her. Still...I rather they had killed Faith instead of Kendra...LOL!
@@MrWinter85 I agree with you on the balance thing. But I thought it was poor of them to show that Kendra was the one who needed to be taught how to question authority and Faith needed to be taught that rules mattered. To be clear, I don't think the creators consciously or intentionally wanted poc women to appear subservient and if they had more representation like Ian mentioned, this wouldn't even be a discussion but as it stands, I see Buffy presenting more of white brand of feminism. I still love Buffy though and don't want to give the impression that I only see the problems - this was just one of the things that bugged me about it.
You should maybe check out the rebooted comic series they're doing, it's actually pretty good and Kendra even gets an actual character.
@@sabinaperez2091 Thanks for the recommendation - I'll give that a shot!
Here's my hot take: I shipped Giles with Buffy's mom.
I'm gone.
Hot Take: Giles and Buffy's mom were hot together.
Okay...why have I never seen this mentioned anywhere else? Lol. I thought the same when I first watched the show.
@@ShanyShannon Right??
Yes! A thousand times this, over forcing a ship of Joyce & Spike (like, wuttt). She becomes close with Spike & good friends, but it does. not. need. romance overtones. Ever.
Meanwhile Joyce and Giles are literally canon. And they're cute at Halloween. (Ok, going now to rewatch all that fun :P )
I HATE when Buffy gets kicked out of her house because all of her friends that she's been with for years suddenly just turn on her and force her out into the streets. All of this with the giant looming threat of the First Evil out there?? Absolutely not.
I mean she did just tell a house full of scared teenagers that their friend who just killed herself was stupid and weak.
I agree! If they didn't agree with the way she was leading them, fine, but I'll be damned if I let folks kick me out my own damn house (where my mama died!). Buffy should've told every last one of them to kick rocks and find an empty house to squat in.
me too, especially because in the end she was right, there was something at the vineyard... ungrateful bast*rds
@@franckberanger3179 YES! That's the worst part of it. Buffy. Was. Right. Although I do enjoy watching Spike read all of them for kicking her out...
Lol I'm sorry but that part was cathartic because she was doing to much and she wasn't even trying to get to know them as people I feel like out of everyone she should have understood how they felt
Actually, Bianca Lawson was the original choice to play Cordelia, but she was tied into her contract with Sister Sister.
Oh, that would have been so cool! Love Bianca.
Mind blown. That would of been great.
Joss Whedon's writing and his brand of feminism hasn't aged well in many ways.
@baileysmithful ummm Jurassic park is beautiful how dare you
oof this comment aged well
@baileysmithful I disagree....but the 80's were better, overall.
I rewatch *Once More With Feeling* like every couple of months
A lot of your arguments on why you think Willow is "trash" is tied to her addiction problem. The magic represented drug or alcohol abuse. Many of her issues represent how people who are addicted treat people around them. Everyone saw her as a loser growing up and even her best friend who she pined for her whole life never saw her until she was happy. Her addiction to the magic does show she doesn't want to be a loser but the addiction hurts her and everyone around her. Having a character representing something like this is important and not trash.
5.15 “I Was Made to Love You” really established how awful Warren was as a person. The robot was a better person by far. It pleases me there are college classes that use this episode as a teaching tool.
Re willow being bi, Joss Whedon said this year:
“Willow identified as lesbian for the remainder of the series and Whedon explains this came from the pressure to avoid the relationship with Tara seeming like a phase. “OK, you can’t make Willow bi, you can’t say this is a phase, because that’s what people do to deny their existence,” Whedon says. “So, if I did it now, I’d be like yes she can be bi.”
IMO- Willow’s sexuality is so complicated because it’s so hinged on the context within which it’s being represented. I was happy with her being a lesbian growing up because we wanted and needed that kind of rep and it had to be undeniable, but then as I got older I wanted her to be bi because that’s more of what we needed and we needed to undo so much bi erasure. Now, conversations around compulsive heterosexuality and the erasure of lesbians makes me almost tilt back to willow being gay. Ultimately tho I do believe the character, as written, in the text, is bi.
Agreed, it's not Willow herself identifying as a lesbian after having dated cis men that's the problem, it's that the show seems to avoid even considering bisexuality as a viable option. If that's because of Whedon and the rest of the writing staff feeling the need to bend towards 90s/early 00s conventions around sexuality, that makes sense, but it still makes the show age poorly in that regard when seen through the lens of a 2020 mainstream understanding. Willow/Tara broke a lot of ground early on, so major props for that.
Fhfhdhjss just the fact that making her bi would have risked delegitimizing her attraction to women just fucks me up
I completely understand your perspective on Spuffy. I like their relationship, but with a lot of reservations, and I think that most of the reason I'm able to enjoy it is because of work done by the comics. The sexual assault scene feels narratively lazy and like it's there to traumatize Buffy for the sake of Spike's arc which I really hate, and I don't think the show adequately addressed it in season 7. The comics do a lot with Spike and Buffy's relationship, both romantically or not, and I really respect the way that it actually does tackle how Buffy thinks about Spike pre and post soul, and reconciling his actions with who he's become. And I can see someone reading the comics and still disliking Spuffy, and I can *for sure* see someone not reading the comics and disliking Spuffy for all of the reasons that you outline (or just not vibing with them tbh). For me the work the comics do and their dynamic overall is enough for me to enjoy them as a couple, but on no level do I want to stop being critical of the way the end of season 6 and season 7 handle them, and I don't want to just pretend the sexual assault scene didn't happen or how the show failed to really deal with it in a way that made sense in season 7. This video as a whole was really great, and I loved hearing your takes on the show! Aside from my feelings on Spuffy, I agree with all your takes (*especially* about season 7, it was a mess), and even my feelings on Spuffy is a very lukewarm disagreement because, again, not liking them makes total sense to me. Also, "people have strong opinions because they care" is the perfect way of describing the conversations I've had with people about this show. I don't know if you'd want to do a similar video on Angel, but if you did I would totally watch it.
You have really opened my eyes about Willow, dang 👀
You could keep going as well. The way Willow's actions as Dark Willow and her redemption/atonement was treated by the characters has always bothered me. Compare to, say, Faith's redemption arc and the reactions to it. They had the opportunity to address it in S7 (on a platter!) and didn't even touch on it. Another missed opportunity.
A lot of Willow's issues with magic are based on addiction. Like alcoholism or drug abuse. Saying she is trash and she's one of the worst characters is a bad take honestly. The development shows what happens to others around you or what you do to others when you are an addict. She also glossed over the fact that Willow pined for Xander basically her whole life and he never even saw her. Was it wrong to cheat? Yes. But it also shows Willow is weak to temptation and furthers this thought into her magic.
I have previously heard people talk about how Willow raped Tara, and while part of that going mostly unacknowledged or unnoticed is because Willow is a woman, I think a big part of it is also the context leading up to it. They way I see it, Willlow raped Tara because she took away Tara’s agency, her ability to make informed decisions about how she feels about Willow and how she wants to engage with Willow in their relationship. Willow may have just selfishly wanted to avoid resuming an argument, so she took away Tara’s memory, but that comes down to Willow’s obsession with CONTROL and POWER, which is what sexual predators are really about. I just remember the look of shock and disgust, and perhaps horror on Tara’s face when she realizes what Willow did, and she sings “God, how can this be, playing with my memory? You know I’ve been through hell! Willow, don’t you see, there’ll be nothing left of me?! You made me believe!”
I'm really interested to hear your opinions on Xander's toxic masculinity as it's presented through the series but never resolved. (punching the dry-wall in "the Body", the whole "Willow says kick his ass" his treatment of Anya after she sleeps with Spike, etc)
@@YoufTub How he blamed Buffy for Riley being insecure about her not needing him after her mother had just died and "cheating" with vampires. And he never told Buffy when Angel got his soul back.
I think I’m the only person who somewhat liked Rona (the black potential slayer) in season 7 🥴.
I liked her as Well !
she didn't get enough air time. season 7 was one big Roland Emmerich movie in that regard. But I wouldn't have minded her getting a bit more character development.
@@tomswiftyphilo2504 literally this. Shes the only likeable one and she gets some of the least screen time lol
Unfortunate name tho 😂
@@imtheonewhobroughtthebeans915 prescient...?
Everything in "Spuffy Was A Bad Choice": THANK YOU!!!
I always liked Spike. He was my favorite. I wanted them to get together but when they did, it wasn't as great as I hoped it would be.
But then when the sexual assault scene happened, I was disgusted and upset. That ruined Spike for me completely. It ruined their relationship for me. And I could never look at him the same again. And I was watching the show as a kid when it aired so I took it hard. I lost all love for the show after that point. And only kept watching as an obligation to see it through to the end.
I never liked Dawn. I hated the final season of Buffy. But I just tolerated it.
Buffy (and Angel, the show) were a huge part of my childhood. So I look back on them fondly. And also because Buffy really was one of a kind show
I haven't seen anybody else involved discuss it, but James Marsters at least has been very vocal about the rape scene being a career low for him. I imagine that, if that's the case, he was hardly alone and they absolutely knew better at the time.
I agree 100% on Dawn, though I also watched the series knowing she would be a part of it. She added a lot to Season 5 and it's a shame that they didn't really think through he character and dynamic for 6 & 7.
And I agree on Buffy being kicked out. A lot of the problem with Season 7, as you indicate, was that the writers wanted to do stuff with the characters without situating them in their arcs as they'd been throughout the entire show. They wanted to have Buffy behave recklessly and get humbled and redeem herself, and rather than write an arc in which she made mistakes, was shamed for them, learned from them, and developed as a person, they simply arranged the world so that she happened to be right after the humbling experience, but without her changing or growing.
Finally, I have a feeling that Faith was the expression of their realizing they fucked up the opportunity with Kendra, though obviously in the sense of 'we didn't explore the idea of two slayers enough' and not in the sense of 'we could've written a women of color well.' To be fair to the Buffy creative team, they probably didn't realize that they'd messed up in that way because they couldn't have delivered on that promise anyway.
Really enjoy your take on this. And I say this with love my dear, women is plural 💜💜💜
@@christmansonpunk2927 Thank you for your kind words and gentle correction.
It's reaffirming to find another person who likes Season 6. It's my favorite season and I agree 100% with your take on The Trio. I joke that the real "big bad" of the season is Adulting, though... :-)
I think that was take was actually confirmed by the writers. The big bad was adulting.
I mean... there's a lot of adulting. Not 19-year-old is orphaned with a teenage daughter.
Season 6 is just basically Millennial woes. A little before its time. Even though I think Buffy is technically between millennial and X. I love that the big bad was a man with a gun.
@@ragunral
It is. On the DVD set "Special Features", there's a segment called:
"Life is the Big Bad-Season 6 Overview".
I hated season 6, because it was "realer" than the seasons before. Now I see that people like it for that very fact LOL. It wasn't done or written badly, I just didn't want that sort of real life future to interrupt my escapism. Now that I'm older I appreciate it more, but I still want to go back to their easy high-school problems
I'm glad someone realizes Willow and Xander were horrible. I could tolerate Xander because Anya came and basically made him invisible as a character. Willow could choke. I loved Dawn and I never undertood the hate because she kept Buffy grounded.
My thing is that every character except, like Xander and Dawn straight up murder someone at some point and Faith is the only one who sees anything approaching consequences for it. I’m not saying lock them up and throw away the key, just that if you do something that terrible, you have a responsibility to others and to make amends in a concrete way. Andrew was pretty egregious. He killed his best friend, had a good cry about it, and was all better and just part of the gang ever after.
Mostly agree with you on your point here but I personally don't regard Xander's hands as being clean at all. Remember that big musical number episode? The one where it's only revealed at the end that Xander was the one who called the demon and my god did he wait til the last minute before he fessed up! But aside from that dickery, people also burst into flames dancing in the streets 'cos of him and the spell he cast. And that for me is one of the most galling examples of getting off scot free, Faith is never able to get away from what she did and she doesn't try to. Xander just skates on people burning alive and Dawn and then Buffy nearly being taken away to be a demon bride.
Geryfon ha ha, I forgot that he committed indirect manslaughter, and again, never faced any consequences for it, lol
@@josephkolar3443 I know right!? The group is insanely forgiving when one of their own does something but they are judgemental as all hell when it's anyone else. And Faith is a prime example of it, Spike and Angel especially get away with far more murders then she does due to Joss constantly using the whole soul thing as a get out of jail free card lol.
And he almost rapes Buffy too but that is always conveniently forgotten.
@@laurencooper654 True, we all remember Spike's attempt but Xander's is always forgotten. He was actually possessed at the time so it's not at the same level as Spike but it's still a thing. And we never see Buffy being uncomfortable being around him at afterwards, even for a little while.
I remember when Buffy said she would allow Spike to kill Nikki's son Principle Robin if he ever went after Spike again... Like are you kidding me?? Spike killed his mother and a fellow slayer and wears her Jacket as a trophy! It was such a horrible thing for her to say considering how self-righteous she is when anyone threatens her family and friends
I will never forgive the show for forcing that Spike rape scene on us in season 7.
Buffy had literally snuck into his room invisible and molested him without his permission. She had beat him, spit on him then slept with him and called him a dirty vampire. Despite their matched strength, she knew he was emotionally fragile and used it to get dick and a loyal servant out of him. So what power dynamics would support him trying to rape her?? That she was a girl and he's a guy? Even though she has beat him to near death at almost every fight? Wasn't aggressive violent sex their thing? Then suddenly it became a rape thing when they had to reinforce the negativity of the relationship and victimize buffy for a quick plot jump.
Like we knew they were trash together, you could have gone sooo many ways to end the situationship, to trigger his journey and so on. But since power dynamics disappear under the lens of the patriarchy, somehow they made spike try to rape buffy and never counted her SEVERAL overpowered assualts as rape.
Cus he must want it right? A man, a dirty vampire, ughhh I hate it so much
Ugh completely. Like just have it be something else he’s done that he feels so bad about so he wants to get his soul, and their relationship in season 7 can still work (although I have notes lmao) It’s so cruel to victimise Buffy and especially since the writers have been giving us reasons to love Spike since the start despite him being a bad guy, it is such bad writing. Like they were toxic which I was fine with them exploring but they make Buffy so violent in a way I don’t believe she would be?? Even towards him?? They were close friends at the start of the season when he was the only one she thought she could talk to. There was such an opportunity to explore Buffys own flaws in the toxicity but the writing was lazy
@@grammerincorrect exactly!! Like they had built him up to be a character we actually loved, and the flaws in their relationship were VERY clear, so that rape scene was just exploitative honestly. Using a real issue to reduce the complexity of the relationship they had built up since the previous season.
And it was so much worse that her friends kept using the word Rape consistently as if to remind us that was what happened because even in the "rape scene" it was hard to see spike as not the victim. Which I think he was honestly.
It's unfair and abusive to set up a system of sexual communication that is violent and aggressive but then use that system to make yourself the victim on the singular occasion that you weren't the instigator. And it didn't even make sense with her character!!
Ughhh I have so many thoughts, all in all, worst writing choice ever
Not Yours yeah if they weren’t going to address all the complexity responsibly and keeping characterisation consistent then they should have avoided it completely
I know James Marsters also disagreed with the decision, and the writer who came up with that scene because she did something similar to an ex she was trying to get back together with (which is another level of weird).
@@maximo_lopez i just read up on it. genuinely thought i couldn't hate that scene more after more than a decade. Look at 2020 showing off as usual lollll
Kendra. One minute she's kicking Angel's ass and the next she's losing to Drusilla. Smdh
Well Drusilla have hypnosis powers and Angel doesn't.
@@Henrik_Holst Which she never used on Buffy or any other opponent she was fighting 🤨
@@justaloe When did we see her fighting anyone else?
@@justaloe She uses them on Giles though.
"She played reindeer games and got reindeer prizes." 😂 I became obsessed with Buffy in high school and I want to rewatch it someday but I'm nervous I'll find it too problematic to enjoy. Haha
As someone who watched it as a kid it's not awful. I think it's just society has changed quite a bit since then. The things that are stellar are still stellar. I dont think there should be a remake. I'd prefer to follow another slayer's journey.
@@ShannaFarley I fully agree that the new show should just follow a new slayer!
Pogie, all I can say is that I've watched a dozen reactors who find it amazing. All of them were in the last 3 years and nearly all of them were under 30.
I think you could enjoy going through it again. It's such a complicated show that I will make 2 predictions for what would happen if you rewatched it.
1. There will be whole episodes that you don't remember very well.
2. At least half of it will work for you and still be great.
On the other hand it could certainly be disappointing to see it with fresh eyes and not like it anymore.
@@UTU49 You've convinced me! I'm adding it to my queue.
@@PogieJoe
I hope you enjoy it. :)
I hope you are able to watch it in its original form. The HD remaster is literally one of the worst things in pop culture history. It literally has scenes that originally had the look of a horror movie, that now have the look of a soap opera. The HD remaster has been reframed so badly that there are shots where you can literally see crew members at the side of the screen. The HD remaster was an act of near total incompetence.
Awesome video!
I really like the Trio as villains too, though I always saw them more as an allegory for toxic masculinity in general than just evil people. It's worth noting that they were all bullied by the school jocks and fit outside of traditional masculine roles, but where Warren tries to corral the group into following the kind of toxic masculine stereotypes that are presented to young guys as "normal behavior", Andrew and Johnathan turn to Buffy and her friends the moment they realize things are going too far. Andrew is also a pretty relatable example of a gay kid struggling to appear normal by going along with these harmful masculine roles until they just can't anymore. The whole trio is a great send up of how toxic masculinity in the form of bullying to "hammer the nails that stick out" actually turns harmless boys into these reproductions of toxic masculine values.
Also, while I think the comparison to incels and incel culture is spot on, calling them "beta-males" kind of reinforces that language and those ideas that there is a hierarchy. But I feel like you might just be meming here so it's no big deal :p
Also I feel like Willow got away with A LOT just for the simple fact that she "looks" innocent (like did she have to bring her white fragility to the after life???)
Minor nitpick, but I don't think it's fair to characterize Angel as being "good" because he's "forced" to by his soul. Humans have souls in that world, but they're still capable of being awful (incel trio). So really, the soul only gives him the capacity to be good. I haven't seen the show in forever, so maybe I'm wrong about how the soul thing work. Also, I like the subtle Samurai Jack reference, and I appreciate you calling out the show's race issue
Yeah, Angel especially in season 2 ATS shows how “Angelus” is really just under the surface with him at all times, they are his base instincts and he has to work really hard to be a better person
And he was a pretty shitty human when he still had his soul, before getting turned into a vampire. So just the soul thing is not a guarantee that someone is going to do good things.
Ine Louw yeah completely. I think because of the limited time the show really has to deal with the souled vampires, it’s not done as well as it is explored on Angel
Buffy was never in love with spike! Unless you count that time they were under Willow's spell. They made a point of showing that Spike knew she didn't really love him. She only came to trust him out of respect that he had grown, could actually be good and had gotten a soul.
wow now i'm imagining that whole season 7 potential slayer arc with Kendra still alive. WHAT A MISSED OPPORTUNITY. Also Bianca Lawson is Beyonce's sister in law. slay
Super missed kind of wished she got dragged back with evil Willow.
Beyonce has a brother?
@@christmansonpunk2927 Nope! her mom, Tina, got remarried to Bianca Lawson's father. So I guess step sisters is more accurate my bad
@@halfstegasaurus oh lol, I was so confused thinking either Bey has a brother I've never heard of or one of her sisters went lesbian 🤣🤣
Hot damn.
I think the thing that bothers me the most about Spike's character is that he never suffers any consequences for his actions. He spends all of season 6 taunting Buffy until he sexually assaults her... and nothing happens to him. He gets a soul and is rewarded with Buffy's love, to the point where she puts him above everyone else (Dawn, Giles, Willow, Xander). Spike gets to stay in Xander's house and later Buffy's, is allowed to be around the potential slayers, and Buffy makes excuses to keep him alive, even after finding out he's being controlled by the First Evil. His sacrifice at the end of the show ends up being meaningless because he's later resurrected on Angel (a show he had no business being a part of, but I'm guessing Whedon was trying to cover up his firing of Charisma by replacing Cordelia with Spike). And even with a soul, he's still an asshole? He tries to kill Robin Wood and tells him his mother didn't love him because she didn't give up being a Slayer for him (while praising Buffy for taking care of Dawn at the same time...), and proudly wears Nikki's coat (you know, the slayer he killed). Spike believes he deserves redemption because he fought for his soul and that somehow erases all his bad deeds.
Spike should have remained a one season villain, with the occasional cameo in a flashback.
The same thing happened with Willow. I don't think killing Warren was her biggest sin (he was a murderer and a rapist after all. He killed Tara and tried to sexually assault his ex-girlfriend Katrina); the worst things she did was abusing Tara and trying to destroy the world. But she spends a few months in England and is immediately forgiven.
This is why I prefer Angel and Faith's redemption arcs. When Angel gets his soul back, Buffy kills him to save the world (the right thing to do, as much as it pained her). Angel spends 100 years in hell, and when he returns, Giles doesn't forgive him for killing Jenny. The Scoobies (minus Buffy) never trust him again. Angel, in his own show, acknowledges that he can never truly atone for all the bad things he'd done, that all he can do is keep fighting the good fight. He goes through hell and loses most of his friends and even his own son is taken from him. He does pay the price. So does Faith. She goes to jail and was willing to stay there until Wesley broke her out when Angel turned into Angelus again. Faith risks her life to save him, and by extension, the world. She actually worked to get better, and she did it for herself.
And yes, Dawn was awesome and season 5 is the best season.
XxBarbyChanxX I think the reasoning is that Spike with his soul back is considered a different person, even if he has the same memories. It's weirdly vague with him because he doesn't change much with a soul, but it should be the same as Angel, wherein he's not responsible for Angelus's actions. Like, Giles holds killing Jenny against him, but it's portrayed as unfair, if understandable, of Giles to do that, and he pretty much forgives him before the end of Season 3. They definitely could have talked about it more.
P.S. I've read most of the comics and they actually handle it better than the show did. Buffy even has some PTSD regarding the incident that she has to work around. But still, they don't blame soul!Spike for demon!Spike's actions.
@@didiercollard When did Giles forgive Angel for killing Jenny? I must have missed that scene because I don't remember it. My point still stands when I say Spike never faced consequences for his actions, though. Soul or no soul, he deserved some punishment. He abused the main heroine of the show, and nothing happened to him.
I don't read the comics nor I have plans to do so, but Spike trying to rape Buffy is something that should have been addressed on the actual show. The show never digs into Buffy's pain and trauma, and instead chooses to turn Spike into someone Buffy has to coddle and feel sorry for.
@@XxBarbyChanxX I don't know if there's a specific scene where Giles forgives Angel, but I do remember that in the Christmas episode, Amends, he holds Angel at crossbow-point at first, but then later helps him. And then at the end of the prom, he tacitly approves of Buffy dancing with Angel. That implies an indirect forgiveness, or at least having moved past holding him responsible. As for Spike, yeah, they could have handled it better. My point about the comics is that they seem to know this and are trying to course-correct.
@@didiercollard and then in Graduation part 2 when the scoobies rush to the hospital after Angel takes Buffy there after she forces him to drink from her to save his life, Giles and Xander show their disdain for Angel with Xander basically accusing Angel on feeding on the girl he loves not even knowing the circumstances regarding how it happened and then Giles forcibly telling him to go home. Their looks towards Angel conveyed there was still resentment and hostility towards him and he guiltily walks away.
The issue with Angelus was a turning point more so for Giles than Xander because we know Xander didn't like Angel from the beginning because of his feelings for Buffy and then discovering he was a vampire. Giles of course was more against Angel when Jenny died even though he understood it was a soulless Angel that killed her which show his consistency when dealing with a souled Spike in the last series.
The relationship that grew with Giles and Angel in series 1 which we see in Prophecy Girl when they secretive talk about Buffy is irreconcilable damage in series 2 and won't ever be that way again.
Buffy never loved Spike?
Like, that's the whole plot line. She used him as a distraction, but never cared about him. During the scene where Spike sacrifices himself is the one and only time Buffy ever expresses intimate feelings towards him, and even Spike knows that she's just saying it as a way to thank him, not because she actually feels any love for him.
Everytime I see Joyce's death I cry and go hug my mom☹️. That definitely should've gotten an Emmy nom.
I was on Team Sansa the second after she thought about to killing Joffrey, after seeing her fathers head on a spike. She learned and used her head.
“Or maybe he’ll give me yours..” *icy stare* Dang now I wanna watch Game of Thrones for the 6th time. I’ve already seen Buffy 107 times so I think I can skip my rewatch this year lol.
My favorite Character is Willow, so it hurts to see someone not like her 😭, but I had never heard anyone voice the points you brought up about her. It makes me look at her in a different light and appreciate her a bit differently. Lots to think about. I also love that you love dawn, I love her too! I honestly love the whole show, it makes me cry still when I watch certain episodes, the body, the gift, seeing red, etc. I understand that there are a lot of flaws with how they represent some issues, but to me the show was always just about life, and how fucked people are. I love that they make terrible decisions and so many mistakes, because to me thats’s just so human, so real and I really connect to that whole mess. I don’t think that I can really look at the show in an unbiased way because it was such a part of my formative years that I can’t really separate it from my childhood. Anyways just a long appreciation comment, thanks for the video and the food for thought ☺️
FINALLY someone else who thinks Kendra's treatment in the show was awful. I loved her, silly accent and all, and think she could've been a really great character but they killed her off in such a quick and disrespectful way it hurt. Buffy was great in so many ways, but really lacking in BIPOC representation to the point where it feels on purpose.
Also I never thought about Spike/Joyce as a pairing, but oh my god? Picturing Spike as the stepdad Buffy never wanted rather than an uncomfortable obsessive romantic interest is kind of amazing, I'm here for it.
The Trio was the manifestation of INCELs before "INCEL" was a term.
Watching this vid and I am agreeing with you a lot (but im one of those ppl that liked season 4 lol)
I loved buffy - both movie and series. not the comics tho, I've tried but no.
For real tho SMG def carried that show on her back. Was I the only who was legit mad at her friends when they brought Buffy back to life? That ticked me off so badly and I cried when she revealed her resentment to them.
Kendra's death pissed me off.
Joyce's death was shocking.
Taras death made me sad.
Anya's death was cheap.
I only watched the series one time, but yeah, I thought 4 was corny, but fairly well structured, whereas 6 has more interesting themes that lead to great episodes, but is also all over the place to the point of feeling random, at times.
I was too, i was also mad at them when they all ganged up on her in the beginning of season 3 for running away
Yeah, it bugs me when people say Buffy's bland in comparison to her friends, because she's not a witch, or a vampire, or a demon, etc., she's just a "hot chick with superpowers" (Faith's words). But while that may be true, there is so much nuance in her writing and performance. I mean, from our mundane perspectives, we'd love to have superpowers, so "why's she complaining" is kinda valid, but also, Slayers typically have an expiration date of less than, oh, 5-10 years (I'm probably being generous), and the "support" from the Watcher's Council, the only ones who know about what's going on, is laughable. Anyway, SMG as Buffy is excellent, sells all of it every time.
@@sonikmuff Super cheap. Didn't she died so Andrew could live?
Lmao Buffy was right to not let Robin kill him! She’s about preventing violence and having as many warriors by her side as she can! If Robin killed him it wouldn’t have brought him peace, even he admits that he needs to bring out the trigger to fight the man who killed his Mum. Vengeance can be toxic!
Imagine if it was season 3 Faith that killed someone important to him, would we not want Buffy to stop that? Idk. Also super disappointed in Giles in season 7. He doesn’t listen to Buffy and thinks he knows best
I never even considered Spike and Joyce but now I am SUPER into it.
Hot take, if you told me Xander was a part of the trio I would’ve believed you. Dude was kind of not great.
I wish Angel and Buffy got back together and stayed together and found a way to get past the Angel soul losing consequence.
There’s the Shanshu Prophecy
Firstly, your outfit is really freaking cute and I was distracted by it through the whole video because I want a top like that, it's gorgeous and you're gorgeous.
I have an interesting relationship with Willow, because at the age I started watching and in the first season, she was a mirror of me and I really latched onto that and got really connected to her as a character and so when she grew in the direction she did, little 12 year old (computer nerd/baby witch/starting to discover my non hetero side) me got a really visceral cautionary tale about her future. And almost 12 years later I'm still looking back on our similarities and asking myself "What would Willow do?" So I can do the opposite.
Former Spuffy fan here: there were a hundred fics written in between season 6 and 7 that handled the fallout of the assault better than the show. Season 7 was so bad for so many reasons but just pushign Buffy straight into forgiveness rather than working out the messiness of their relationship was certainly one of the top ones (right behind Willow/Kennedy and Too Many Characters Syndrome).
You might appreciate the comics
@@christmansonpunk2927 I started them and hated them.
@@mboatrightED300 I see they're not for everybody, hey there's always fanfiction
wait, so former spuffy fan, does that mean like ex spuffy shipper? So what changed your mind, was it the comics?
@@neestovekin8251 Oh I quit the comics long before Spike ever showed up. Mostly it was Spike's tenure on Angel; the episode where they both decide it's time to move on felt like a fitting end for me.
When Spike assaulted Buffy, it pissed me off so much especially when there seemed to be no repercussions for Spike
I always saw Spuffy not as Buffy being in love with Spike, but as her being so changed and isolated after coming back from death that she truly feels like Spike is the only person in her life she can relate to. It worked really well for me as a dysfunctional relationship, and as a marker of the long-term trauma Buffy was experiencing by just being alive.
I always thought with the trio that Andrew and Jonathan were deeply flawed people making mistakes and that Warren was a truly bad person.
And I guess my hot take is "I like season 4 actually?" It's not perfect but it has a lot of great moments and mostly suffers from being stuck between two of the best seasons of the show and being weaker by comparison.
Well the writers did get F'ed by the actress playing Walsh, when she left in the middle of production. And since she was the big bad that season, they had to do a lot of heavy patch work to make the season make sense.
I get that Willow went mad with power, but I was super cheering for her when she embraced the 🦇TRVE DARKNESS🦇 to avenge Tara.
the way that you just casually threw out shipping spike and joyce as if that wasn't THE hottest take of the video
I honestly never thought Buffy ever truly loved Spike, at least not in the sense of being IN Love as she was with Angel. I think in a sense she still kept using him in the last season as a person who still believed in her when her friends didn't, as someone who was an additional warrior to the cause and fight against the First. I think the last scene they are together although she does say "I love you.." even Spike knows this isn't true and rebuttals with "no you don't, but thanks for saying it" (I believe that's what he says). She doesn't argue against what he says because she was only saying it because he was sacrificing himself and yes I do believe she cared about him but her being the slayer has always made her keep her friends, family, and lovers a bit at arm's length.
AS a Spuffy fan, I did wish they would've delved into their relationship more. Like you said, break down why he meant so much to her. I speculated about it a lot but it was never really dealt with on the show and that always disappointed me.
I LOVED this. Please do one about Angel because I"m a bad Buffy fan and actually love that show more. I have not cried harder over a character more than I've cried over Fred and Illyria straight up gave me an existential crisis
A true hot take would've been that the Loan Shark was a great gag
And second to none but the Cheese Man :)
Much as I appreciate Eliza Dushku, it would've been interesting had Kendra survived to take on that Rogue Slayer storyline. (Although I definitely agree that military-seminary-homeschooled-Slayer-type Kendra would've still been better-equipped at getting the Potentials in order.)
I am so happy to see this video! I love your content and Buffy is one of my favourite shows of all time. Faith was my one of my favourite characters growing up, but I also remember being more upset by Kendra’s death than anyone in the show seemed to be, and I really would have loved to see Kendra’s reaction to Faith going evil and how it would have compared with Buffy’s
I instantly am here for whatever you bring! Subscribed.
I remembered season 4 as being horrible but rewatching the show now, I've gotta say I actually don't mind it. Plus it has some excellent Spike-centred episodes (pink fluffy jumper!), Hush and some other gems.
Also, Kendra's death broke my heart. That show is really good at doing that. You start to really like someone and they start being happy .... Enter Death.
The thing that bummed me out the most about the whole willow bi-erasure thing was that there was like no discussion within the show about it. It felt weird to me for that reason. Like there was no discussion between characters about about it or anything (as far as I can remember, it's been a decade since I watched the show, so I could be wrong). It was just welp she's datin' a lady so she gay. It's not surprising given its a show from the 90s/00s but it still felt kinda weird which I think is why it feels like bi-erasure. Because they just don't talk about any of it. I dunno maybe I'm mis-remembering though.
She literally said "Hello! Gay now! (But she was discussing with Anya, and I think it was meant to be a joke...)
@@freddogrosso9835 I'm glad they kind of addressed it then, even as a joke.
It just felt odd that she never really discussed it with Buffy or Xander or her friends or whatever. Like I don't need a momentous coming out saga, but like this is stuff you talk to friends about. I dunno.
It definitely smacks of bi-erasure and I believe Whedon said recently if he did it again he'd make her canonically bi (I'd argue the text basically does that already with one or two contradictions but largely pointing to her being bi).
At the time they believed that making her bi would leave people thinking there was still a chance for her to come back and date a man and they wanted to make it very clear that Willow/Tara were a real and valid relationship. It definitely comes from systemic biphobia but I think their hearts were in the right place. They wanted to ensure people didn't watch it waiting for her to 'become straight again'.
Yeah same way, like princess said it’s mostly about the patterns around characters that seemingly change sexualities and the lack of material that would help disprove it.
Either way I like the idea of having a bi character or a lesbian character as representation, it’s just a bit messy the way it was executed
I think it’s worse knowing that Joss never intended her to stay gay and it was really more to be a college experimental phase but the fans liked it so much he didn’t want to change it after that hence the bi-erasure. He didn’t want the character to be bisexual he just wanted to write a story line that fetishized a female on female relationship. :(
this is so relevant with will wheaton's recent statement on buffy! I'm in my late thirties so I was basically the same age as the characters on btvs. the show was very formative for me, I felt like we grew up together!
so it's been tough dealing with knowing all the backstage stuff that was going on, and looking back on bad storylines, poorly written characters, etc.
I'm currently rewatching the series with my spouse who never watched it. the first three seasons are really the best (I adore the Scooby interactions in mid season 2), but there are definitely good episodes in the later seasons.
all this to say - I loved "beer bad" for being stupid nonsense and also Parker getting repeatedly dunked on.
I never knew how much I needed this to happen. So hype to hear your perspective