This content is so beautiful and important. Thank you for making this ancient wisdom practice accessible and digestible to all. While listening I felt that compassion was being summoned in a way I’ve never experienced before. Almost like the virtue was alive-ening and alchemizing, and it struck me all at once. I’m still quite new to the practice so not sure if that experience is what’s meant by logos. But I’m awed and moved by it, it really surprised me.
A couple things that I've learned in doing this practice that may help others: 1. To avoid getting lost in the clouds, you can encourage the group to go into the practice with a seriousness as if, right after the practice, you were about to go into a situation that required the virtue. It's likely important that they don't dwell too much on a specific situation -- it is uncertain, after all. 2. To avoid people falling into certain traps around the idea of definition, you can encourage them to think of it more like someone giving definition to a sculpture, or how a photo can be high-definition. Thank you all.
I like how Chris said, to that end. And continues to talk on compassion and slightly changing his position on how people see compassion Good arguments either way
I grew up playing Legend of Zelda where the Triforce is Courage, Power, and Wisdom personified by Link, Ganondorf, and Zelda respectively. This talk made me realize that Ganondorf's evil nature is like Ahab. He wants power to strike out at nature and destroy it, but he never can. To defeat Ganondorf is one thing, but to redeem Ganondorf is to transform power into compassion. We do need the Will to hold each other and evolve in the face of our finitude and the endless mystery of life. That power and will is made a virtue when it turns us towards communion and community. So the three forces of the Triforce become Courage, Compassion, and Wisdom: the courage to be, the compassion to bear, and the wisdom to transcend.
Gorgeous. So helpful to me today, both to understand a personal interaction where I received compassion from a loved one, as well as helping me articulate something about what it means to “hold space” for another person in a curriculum I’m working on. And just a fantastic demo of this practice!
Hi Ken, love to see you all burning so passionately in this dialogos. I wanted to thank you for mentioning agape at the end. It clicked really well for me with the direction our dialogos on compassion. We talked a lot about how one needs to let go of once own self and throuthly see the world through the eyes of the other so that the suffering comes from understanding the other. So as it clicked today in my head - comming from Iris Murdoch's "Love is the extremely difficult realization that something other than oneself is real." it follows that compassion is the virtue that affords love, that affords agape.
...beautiful. Watching and listening. I have "What Is Anthroposophy" on at the same time. Was going to turn it off, Yet- you guys and this compliment when you fall silent or to hand gesture. The fill in from the overflow is...? ❤...beautiful
This was an insightful video. It has taken quite a while to process each part and the role each of you were doing. Even though I saw this on the After Socrates series, I didn't understand how each role was specifically monitoring different levels in the dialogue. Its nice to listen to this type of dialogue and absorb what emerges from the group but when you are watching each role 🤦🏽♀️ its just impossible to follow each part without imaging other ways to better relate to the entire mechanism. Hence why this is probably my 4th attempt to post without yelling at John and dismissing this exercise as being impractical, impossible, ancient and not what I wanted for this type of proposal 😅. Dialogos about Compassion is tough asf. My initial thought was ... what does that sound like coming from a male perspective? As I listened, kindness was the immediate impression I got from the entire vibe. I would have hoped there was more you all could have done to connect with the weight and burden of holding or bearing that load. Compassion seems like it demands more of something greater than the burden that is being held. Demand is a strong word because its that which you instinctively do not want to look at but you do so without any judgement. Compassion desists when Judgement determines a stark shift in balance. Obediance therefore takes all of the compassion that was pushed aside and holds it up as the Virtue to reflect back to all. Obedience might as well be the human instinct to do what is right from the measurement of the wrong done. In this way Compassion is cloaked as the forsaken who is forced to look at the burden it must hold up. Its a plead for those to not ignore or push it aside. Its a measurement as the Judge had already decided. To lose compassion is to lose the human instict to know right from wrong. I think this is what I was alluding to when I wondered if there was "something greater" in the burden. Thanks Guys, it was not an easy one to contemplate.
...The phrase "skirting around the edge of failure" might sound negative, but it can also be understood as resilience, adaptability, and the willingness to navigate challenges successfully. It represents the drive to not give up in the face of difficulty, which can be a positive trait when it comes to personal growth and self-discovery....
Two variations of Ephesians 4:32 Ephesians 4:32. “Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." Ephesians 4:32 “Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.”
Hehehe, so Google spat out these, which are quite vague but I'm using these as examples: What are the 5 C's of compassion? The 5 C's are competence, confidence, connection, caring/compassion and character What are the 7 C's of compassion? They are Confidence, Courage, Compassion, Commitment, Connection, Contribution and Community .... Okay so you can probably see what I'm trying to convey, and I think it would be a cool syllabil thing... But what I'd ask is , I'll use 4 as a proposal number for the C's of compassion from your pov, Therefore, what are the 4 C's of compassion? In Vervaekean language ❤ or in any appropriate language most comfortable or compatible with you. It would be so interesting to see what you'd say. And what John would say 😊 Alas, I am aware that perhaps this comment won't be seen 😅 So I'm gonna give it a try C- Co-operation C- Co- regulation C- Caring core function C- Corporate Capacity C- Creativity C- Clarification C- Courage C- current presence , current flow , current transfer C- Collaboration C- Co- ordination 😅oh my goodness I can actually carry * on going ... I think I just gave like 10 🙄👏🤣 I suppose I'm passionate about compassion and I am one that truly cares and find kindness important and I understand suffering through my own experience and so when I identify that in another, I feel a warm love inside my heart and I am just gravitated towards that person. ♥️ Compassion is so very important! What is a life without compassion? ❤ Thanks for this, I'm going to carry on listening now
Loved the explication of the dialogos process at the beginning, have been following JVs work for a while and that's been elusive for me! Do the "roles" mean dialogos takes 4 contributors, or does someone take multiple roles when dialogos-ing with 3? Is 5 contributors possible, or just 2?
4 is ideal, both in terms of the roles, but also for reasons related to the possibility space of working memory. IIRC working memory is able to track 4 concurrent threads, and this is conducive to finding the zone of proximal development
Hey Ken, I introduced my men's group to informal dialogos. I'm thinking of workshopping this more formal method next week. However, there may be 5-6 members. Did you guys come up with an idea for how to play formally with a larger group ?
I'm glad to hear it! You certainly could try it out, but John has talked a few times about several aspects of cognition, which make 4 the optimal number. I have done it with 5, and it's gone well.
But who is the nurse of ideas? This midwife is Phantasia. Our own interconnectedness with interior higher order spirit. That is the practice of virtue and internal elevation of the human soul.
Dipietro learning some new stuff I see. He seems frustrated. Perhaps he's frustrated with a lot of authors he studied. A very smart guy. Is he playing devil's advocate here?
There is no necessity for suffering. Suffering is caused by people and placed on other people. That's called psychopathy, Chris. If you suffer by your own actions is different. If multiple people place suffering on another person that's sociopathy by the ring leader and those who follow those actions. In a basic scenario of 2 people or a family, compassion would be present and compassion for suffering would also be present
Yes, when it remains solely in the human the interaction never rises above 2^3, so if a person is 2^1 and a couple as 2^2 and reproduction or shared experience between couples is 2^3 interaction possibilities, then 2^3 is a box with 8 corners. A neo-Platonic object possible with 2^5 as 32 corners, when the world other than human is included, then vibrancy increases the dimensionality further, circle to ball with a flattened side which encourages engagement like diving into a pool. Triangle of grass, herd and pack with vitality of health, a pyramid. When humans intrude on this the health benefits are left behind but culture says otherwise, and this is bound up with superiority over Nature, to return to the beginning of my comment.
This content is so beautiful and important. Thank you for making this ancient wisdom practice accessible and digestible to all. While listening I felt that compassion was being summoned in a way I’ve never experienced before. Almost like the virtue was alive-ening and alchemizing, and it struck me all at once. I’m still quite new to the practice so not sure if that experience is what’s meant by logos. But I’m awed and moved by it, it really surprised me.
Beautiful! This is really wonderful and I'm so glad to hear you were caught up in it with us!
I love watch and listen to you. Thank you!
This was very good. Thank you.
The Humility to Hold One's Bearing.
Humility the virtue that contains all "others".
A loving voice of Logos❤
A couple things that I've learned in doing this practice that may help others:
1. To avoid getting lost in the clouds, you can encourage the group to go into the practice with a seriousness as if, right after the practice, you were about to go into a situation that required the virtue. It's likely important that they don't dwell too much on a specific situation -- it is uncertain, after all.
2. To avoid people falling into certain traps around the idea of definition, you can encourage them to think of it more like someone giving definition to a sculpture, or how a photo can be high-definition.
Thank you all.
Great points!
I like how Chris said, to that end. And continues to talk on compassion and slightly changing his position on how people see compassion
Good arguments either way
Wonderful. Thank you all.
This was so beautifully profound. 🙏
I grew up playing Legend of Zelda where the Triforce is Courage, Power, and Wisdom personified by Link, Ganondorf, and Zelda respectively.
This talk made me realize that Ganondorf's evil nature is like Ahab. He wants power to strike out at nature and destroy it, but he never can.
To defeat Ganondorf is one thing, but to redeem Ganondorf is to transform power into compassion. We do need the Will to hold each other and evolve in the face of our finitude and the endless mystery of life. That power and will is made a virtue when it turns us towards communion and community.
So the three forces of the Triforce become Courage, Compassion, and Wisdom: the courage to be, the compassion to bear, and the wisdom to transcend.
Gorgeous. So helpful to me today, both to understand a personal interaction where I received compassion from a loved one, as well as helping me articulate something about what it means to “hold space” for another person in a curriculum I’m working on.
And just a fantastic demo of this practice!
So glad to hear that Seth, hope you are well!
@@climbingmt.sophia Doing very well today and listening to this in the morning got me started!!
This was awesome. I hope it becomes popular. I want to participate.
Hi Ken, love to see you all burning so passionately in this dialogos. I wanted to thank you for mentioning agape at the end. It clicked really well for me with the direction our dialogos on compassion. We talked a lot about how one needs to let go of once own self and throuthly see the world through the eyes of the other so that the suffering comes from understanding the other. So as it clicked today in my head - comming from Iris Murdoch's "Love is the extremely difficult realization that something other than oneself is real." it follows that compassion is the virtue that affords love, that affords agape.
Thank you, Nikola! Yes, it seems that all the virtues become properly themselves when flowing as aspects of Agape.
Agreed, one cannot grow without compassion
Karuna is at the same level as wisdom. Interesting
...beautiful. Watching and listening. I have "What Is Anthroposophy" on at the same time. Was going to turn it off, Yet- you guys and this compliment when you fall silent or to hand gesture. The fill in from the overflow is...?
❤...beautiful
After just listening to this I saw a lone deer in my lane and felt such compassion
Yay! Looking forward to this
This was an insightful video. It has taken quite a while to process each part and the role each of you were doing. Even though I saw this on the After Socrates series, I didn't understand how each role was specifically monitoring different levels in the dialogue.
Its nice to listen to this type of dialogue and absorb what emerges from the group but when you are watching each role 🤦🏽♀️ its just impossible to follow each part without imaging other ways to better relate to the entire mechanism.
Hence why this is probably my 4th attempt to post without yelling at John and dismissing this exercise as being impractical, impossible, ancient and not what I wanted for this type of proposal 😅.
Dialogos about Compassion is tough asf. My initial thought was ... what does that sound like coming from a male perspective? As I listened, kindness was the immediate impression I got from the entire vibe.
I would have hoped there was more you all could have done to connect with the weight and burden of holding or bearing that load. Compassion seems like it demands more of something greater than the burden that is being held.
Demand is a strong word because its that which you instinctively do not want to look at but you do so without any judgement. Compassion desists when Judgement determines a stark shift in balance. Obediance therefore takes all of the compassion that was pushed aside and holds it up as the Virtue to reflect back to all.
Obedience might as well be the human instinct to do what is right from the measurement of the wrong done. In this way Compassion is cloaked as the forsaken who is forced to look at the burden it must hold up.
Its a plead for those to not ignore or push it aside. Its a measurement as the Judge had already decided. To lose compassion is to lose the human instict to know right from wrong. I think this is what I was alluding to when I wondered if there was "something greater" in the burden. Thanks Guys, it was not an easy one to contemplate.
Thank you for this detailed clarification of the procedure for this practice. I find myself stumbling a bit in sessions.
Glad to hear it was helpful!
I think compassion could be an attitude of the heart
Excellent.
Thank you! Cheers!
Never allow courage to kill compassion 🙏 Allow Courage to help bring compassion to life.
1:12:42 I really appreciate this, it's probably my favorite part of this video, and there are many good parts
...The phrase "skirting around the edge of failure" might sound negative, but it can also be understood as resilience, adaptability, and the willingness to navigate challenges successfully. It represents the drive to not give up in the face of difficulty, which can be a positive trait when it comes to personal growth and self-discovery....
Hmm I like this courage compassion axis idea
Two variations of Ephesians 4:32
Ephesians 4:32. “Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."
Ephesians 4:32
“Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.”
Hehehe, so Google spat out these, which are quite vague but I'm using these as examples:
What are the 5 C's of compassion?
The 5 C's are competence, confidence, connection, caring/compassion and character
What are the 7 C's of compassion?
They are Confidence, Courage, Compassion, Commitment, Connection, Contribution and Community
....
Okay so you can probably see what I'm trying to convey, and I think it would be a cool syllabil thing...
But what I'd ask is , I'll use 4 as a proposal number for the C's of compassion from your pov,
Therefore, what are the 4 C's of compassion? In Vervaekean language ❤ or in any appropriate language most comfortable or compatible with you.
It would be so interesting to see what you'd say. And what John would say 😊
Alas, I am aware that perhaps this comment won't be seen 😅
So I'm gonna give it a try
C- Co-operation
C- Co- regulation
C- Caring core function
C- Corporate Capacity
C- Creativity
C- Clarification
C- Courage
C- current presence , current flow , current transfer
C- Collaboration
C- Co- ordination
😅oh my goodness I can actually carry * on going ...
I think I just gave like 10 🙄👏🤣
I suppose I'm passionate about compassion and I am one that truly cares and find kindness important and I understand suffering through my own experience and so when I identify that in another, I feel a warm love inside my heart and I am just gravitated towards that person. ♥️
Compassion is so very important! What is a life without compassion?
❤
Thanks for this, I'm going to carry on listening now
Loved the explication of the dialogos process at the beginning, have been following JVs work for a while and that's been elusive for me! Do the "roles" mean dialogos takes 4 contributors, or does someone take multiple roles when dialogos-ing with 3? Is 5 contributors possible, or just 2?
4 is ideal, both in terms of the roles, but also for reasons related to the possibility space of working memory. IIRC working memory is able to track 4 concurrent threads, and this is conducive to finding the zone of proximal development
John would the imaginal internalisation of the sage be in any way compatible with the Ignation spiritual exercises?
Hey Ken, I introduced my men's group to informal dialogos. I'm thinking of workshopping this more formal method next week. However, there may be 5-6 members. Did you guys come up with an idea for how to play formally with a larger group ?
I'm glad to hear it! You certainly could try it out, but John has talked a few times about several aspects of cognition, which make 4 the optimal number. I have done it with 5, and it's gone well.
But who is the nurse of ideas?
This midwife is Phantasia.
Our own interconnectedness with interior higher order spirit. That is the practice of virtue and internal elevation of the human soul.
How are you and your son, John? I hope it's going better
Oh my God. Who influenced this conversation. It's effective communication except some of your words are confusing 😉😉
Dipietro learning some new stuff I see. He seems frustrated. Perhaps he's frustrated with a lot of authors he studied. A very smart guy. Is he playing devil's advocate here?
I had the same thought.
There is no necessity for suffering. Suffering is caused by people and placed on other people. That's called psychopathy, Chris. If you suffer by your own actions is different. If multiple people place suffering on another person that's sociopathy by the ring leader and those who follow those actions. In a basic scenario of 2 people or a family, compassion would be present and compassion for suffering would also be present
Would you classify cancer as suffering?
Sounds like you’re in denial about some aspect of your self
Yes, when it remains solely in the human the interaction never rises above 2^3, so if a person is 2^1 and a couple as 2^2 and reproduction or shared experience between couples is 2^3 interaction possibilities, then 2^3 is a box with 8 corners. A neo-Platonic object possible with 2^5 as 32 corners, when the world other than human is included, then vibrancy increases the dimensionality further, circle to ball with a flattened side which encourages engagement like diving into a pool. Triangle of grass, herd and pack with vitality of health, a pyramid. When humans intrude on this the health benefits are left behind but culture says otherwise, and this is bound up with superiority over Nature, to return to the beginning of my comment.
Kuruna - compassion? 🪷❤